An old guy in a machine shop taught me to have a keyed primary vise, dedicated to a particular machine, and un-keyed secondary vises waiting on a oiled wooden storage rack. In your case you would clamp the bar in the already bolted down keyed primary vise and then clamp the secondary vise on the bar. Then tighten the bolts on the secondary vise... donesky! Good video!

@VærdAtSe

Жыл бұрын

Just what i do as well. No need to make it difficult or time waisting 🙂👍

@billshiff2060

Жыл бұрын

I tried the keys and found them more trouble that they are worth. The table slots are just not good enough to accurately align the vice in spite of having a real tight fit. I ended up having to verify them with a dial test anyway so now I just take a minute and align it without keys.

@p.t.anderson1593

Жыл бұрын

@@billshiff2060 Interesting, ours worked great. Guess it depends on how well the finish machining is on your table. I've heard of people having to resort to milling the table with the mill itself. The machine you speak of, was it a full ball screw table or did it rely on dovetails? BTW- we did use a surface grinder to make our keys just shy of an interference fit, very tight slip fit, with a tiny taper to them for each machine... as per the old guy.

@billshiff2060

Жыл бұрын

@@p.t.anderson1593 I think you mean linear bearings (ball race guides) vs dovetails(ball screws are for feed only). I use multiple machines with ball screws and both linear ball, box ways and dovetails, some new and some old, some CNC some manual. I found that the tiniest ding on either part sticks it and then it gets loose on other areas and the lugs are prone to dings. I also dislike that those lugs prevent maneuvering the vice on the table and drops with a THUNK in the slot making it hard to verify that there is nothing under it. Without keys I can put the vice anywhere I want on the table and set it at an angle if needed, all with the certainty that the test indicator can give. Many times I could not locate the vice over the slots so the keys had to be removed. I used to have keys on everything, now I have keys on nothing and I find it easier and more accurate.

When tramming vices I prefer to put a hard straight piece in it and indicate off the piece not the jaw. There is too much distortion in the jaw under pressure and warping it. @ 9:50 You can see the 2 tenths misalignment disappear when you unclamp the bar. The jaw was flexing and tramming on the jaw give a false alignment when you really need high precision. I'm willing to bet you actually made it worse adjusting without the bar pressure. When you tighten a real part in the vice, those jaws will flex in ways you do not know so I would say take your reading off the bar or something that mimics the actual part you are going to machine. If a part is loaded high up on the jaw as is usual, they will flex a lot more too. DETAILS! That's what separates good men from legends.

@johnalexander2349

Жыл бұрын

I was thinking along similar lines, and wondering if it would help to have the movable jaw pressing the bar only at one point, via a small block of wood or plastic. Then again, I'm not a machinist. Still love James' attention to detail, though - some people would just use hardware store fender washers for clamping. He went and made the correct part.

@markarita3

Жыл бұрын

Same here. Rest that indicator on the part, not the jaw(s).

@billshiff2060

Жыл бұрын

@@markarita3 Yeah I came to that after chasing down a small deviation that I couldn't get rid of. Thats when I found out that the vice, its jaws and the screws that hold them are far from rock solid. So now for max accuracy I use a ground hardened rectangular bar (actually it's a jaw from a shear) and clamp it like I will the actual part and tram that.

@mjktrash

Жыл бұрын

That and using a 1/10th indicator.

A bit off topic for manual machinists....but for those who are running a conversion to Centroid CNC, and may not know, you can clamp your multiple vised together like James did here, then simply probe the left extent, and the right extent, then use the CSR function (coordinate system rotation), to set the fixed jaw axis as the machine X Axis, alleviating tramming all together. It's an awesome feature that is often overlooked.

This is exactly what I thought you were going to do. It's such a fast way to do it. The first time I ever had to I waaay overthought it and then this old timer was like "Check this shit out" and made me feel stupid. He probably forgot more stuff than I've ever known about machining. He came up doing this in the 1970s. Hell of a dude.

Found your channel a few weeks ago and have been watching everything you have published. And must admit, with your zeal for making parts, you have encouraged me to get off my butt and back into my shop. Thank you, Sir!

From having to do this often enough, I went a different route and bought an 18" section of ground 4140PH flat stock. Then made an 18" rear vice jaw with two sets of vise jaw bolt hole patterns.

I have a pair of 4" Shars vises and the keys are dead-nuts on square and match each other for position. Zero tramming needed when installed on the table. I was amazed the first time I installed them.

@imademonistthingy

Жыл бұрын

Always check them though. You may have minor wear on your t-slots. Obviously depends on the precision you need, but it's worth keeping in the back of your mind I think

...was I the only one who shuttered when James set his drink on the mill table? 🙂

@bruceanderson9461

Жыл бұрын

No-I said noooo! One of the few things I have ever seen him do that wasn’t perfect. The big problem would be if he left it over night. Then he would have a permanent reminder.

I’ve done this several times with cold rolled. Thompson shaft is an excellent idea. Thank you.

Nicely done, James !

Very good way to tram both vices. That's one heck of a nice piece of round bar!! LOL!! Thank you for the instructional video.

Have been toying with the idea of buying a second matching vertex anglelock vice and was wondering about how to align / tram them both in, and this is so much easier than I was contemplating. Thank you so much, you consistently put out awesome content. 👍

Love the use of the 1/2” 4140 washers, I made mine out of c954 aluminum bronze. Good and hard and the gold finish stands out on the mill.

I was looking for this exact thing today, spent ages with a two dial indicators and taping with hammers shall use this moving forward thanks :D

Excellent. Quick, simple, to the point.

A great idea. I have been thinking of a project that is a bit bigger than my mill but can use two vices. Now I know how to mount and tram them in. Thx!

James, I recently added a second vise on my Bridgeport. I agree, not a lot of information on the web. I have been running the two for a couple weeks and I’m surprised by how versatile this works. I have about 4 inches or so between the two. That has been nice because I was able to use a 123 block and an adjustable parallel to level out an odd par that needed machining. I got my Kurt DX6 from Shars also. I’m happy they are selling more none Chinese items. Thanks for your great content.

The ground bar is a great idea. Power feed does beat manual cranking back and forth. The vices look nice, good that Shars are sponsoring you. It's good for the community, you and in return their commercial bottom-line.

Nice job on filling the knowledge gap 👍🏻 as always, great video sir!

Thanks, you made it look easy

The bar/straight edge method is fine. Professional machinists usually tap in one vise, tighten it down and then move on to the next. It seems like the bar/straight edge method solves a big problem, but it's really not that big of a deal. In this video you end up taking out the bar and taping the vises in anyway.

I've got a couple matched vises too Bourbon and Whiskey! :) .......seriously, very cool James.

good job. Keep up the good work.

Very good method.

Great time saving tip James ! Thanks for sharing.... ATB....Dean

Thanks for sharing 👍

That is a very nice setup. I have been tempted to get another Kurt vice for my mill. Maybe some day.

thanks for sharing

The way I've done this is very similar. However, instead of clamping the whole face of the moving jaw, a piece of soft material is placed vertically in front of the moving jaw's centreline. Aluminium welding rod or thick copper wire is perfect for this. The reason is to avoid any uneven clamping force from the moving jaws affecting the fixed jaws. Not so much of a problem with new equipment, but vices that have done a few miles, or lower quality have a little flex not noticed when used singularly. I also use the ground bar stock to indicate from instead of the interrupted fixed jaw faces as a slight variation that seems to make little difference. The assumptions, which can be verified at the surface table, are that the fixed jaws are flat, and the ground bar stock is straight. This video certainly does fill the missing gap in online knowledge, so good shout James. Now I'm intrigued as to what project you have that requires such a setup.

I don't own a mill, I will never own a mill. I won't ever own vices of the type you installed....still thoroughly enjoyed the video. Thanks.

I’ve seen a few folks do this but it was buried in other videos. Will be nice having a stand alone reference video for folks.

That moment the dial tip (didn't) crash into the second vice. You had my heart racing there. Then I realized the ball tip was big enough to act as a ramp onto it. I would still use a piece of paper to lift it over the edge.

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

That sounds like extra work.

@Wachuko-1

Жыл бұрын

I have had the same issue as well... managed to damage two, not one, dial indicators that way...

Perfection! Nothing more to say :)

At my workplace we have keys under the wises. Using the T-slots they usually come within ~+/-0.01mm and that is enough. To each their own, have fun 👍🏼💪🏼😋!

@VærdAtSe

Жыл бұрын

Exactly. And vises of a good quality do have the keys 100% straight to each other. So it will all be fine.

@johanneslaxell6641

Жыл бұрын

@@VærdAtSe I don't know how good they are, but our vises are made by Gerardi. They work in our mills...

Loving the intros 😂😂

с переводом от нейросети яндекса смотреть ролики на других языках стало возможно, автору спасибо за познавательный материал

You can get many how to here, but it just takes time. I found a good indicator and a cup of coffee works best. Always fun to see your new tools. Those Kurt vises are the BEST.

@OmeMachining

Жыл бұрын

Sagop is the best. The Sagop design is superior over the Kurt 😉😊

As a newbee, great vid, although, I would prob never use 2 vices! I only work in small stuff, but never the less, useful information! Thanks... Frank...

I've just indicated in my pair of orange vises a couple of times recently. I tried using a piece of flat stock to indicate in (as per yourself and "Titans"), but overall I found it made it difficult to adjust the vises. What I found easiest was: A woodworking tool for pushing things to known offsets. Used that to roughly indicate I've vice in, plus then push the other a given spacing away, then use a straight edge to bring the fixed jaws level (could use your round bar for all this as well, just didn't work that well for me) This got me pretty close straight out the door to be honest. Less than 0.03mm out of tram However the trick for me was to grab a 2 micron indicator and indicate with that while tapping. Makes it really easy to see what you are doing and shove things around a couple of microns! Couple of taps later and I'm indicating sub micron deviations across the vise fixed jaws. As an aside the body is out of true to the fixed jaw on the orange vises. about 0.03mm down the long edge. (In fact the vises are off in height by that as well). So indicating on the fixed jaws is a must. Plus I cut my fixed jaws to match left and right and lasered them to remember which is which...

i tram one vise in first then i use a piece of shafting to clamp the second vise to. i set the indicator to zero on the first vise and also the dro x axis to zero. tram the second vise then remove the bar and check both vises by bringing them to zero on the indicator and checking for zero on the dro. this eliminates any distortion caused by clamping pressure. this works especially well when the vises are far apart.

That sounds like a lot of work, I'm not about that. This is the guy who spent a couple days machining and zinc coating pins for his weight bench hahaah. Love your work bro, absolute legend :)

@CothranMike

Жыл бұрын

Nickel plated, shiny-er!

Titans of cnc made a Video about this very topic 😇

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

Hmm...I looked and didn't see it. You mean the one where he's pinning the vises on the tombstone?

Hi Mr. James, could you please make a bunch of videos on the new cnc router. We really enjoyed watching you making it, now we would like to see you using it!!!!

Thanks, James! While I have space & active travel on my mini mill table to support two 3" vises, before I buy a matched pair I would save up for a bench mill and get two 4" vises; maybe my wife will win the lottery one day. My only recommendation would be to use 3/8" drive sockets: still have more than enough torque to tighten the hold-down bolts but would be easier to get into the sockets (it looked like you weren't quite straight with the 1/2" extension).

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

My 3/8 set doesn't go up to 7/8 or 22mm.

@ChazzC

Жыл бұрын

@@Clough42 New Tools!!!

What tolerance on height does Shars promise on those vises?

Nice that "stone"the millingbed but it help when you stone also the vises 😉👍

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

I did. It's awkward to film.

I may disagree that those vices are technically called “cnc vices” from my old school definition (90 degree sides would have allowed you to indicate them). Nice way to tram them together if the sides of the vices aren’t parallel. Cheers man.

@ewildgoose

Жыл бұрын

But the accuracy of the sides only gets you so far.... If you are calling your fixed jaw zero then you need to indicate from the fixed jaw under similar pressure to with work in it...

10:50 It's always chasing those last 2 tenths that get you. I've found that it works better if I go into my settings and uncheck my OCD option before attempting to tram my vice.

@randyshoquist7726

Жыл бұрын

Yup. At 10:20 I was saying, "Don't do it. Don't do it. It's plenty good right there."

Another great video Sir. Thank you!!! This is my exact method as well. 😀Sorry for the off topic comment, but I’d love a video of “how to choose a 3D printer.” I’m 100% confident you would be the person I would trust. Thanks again for all the effort and care that goes into you products! Cheers.

We've all got our vices 😆

Hello James, I've been watching your Toolpost Grinder video. Impressive project that performes extremely well ! What motor did you use ? Do you have Dwgs & possibly Part # for what you used. Thanks Mark

Nice work. My thoughts: If you use two vises, you might also think about using a torque wrench. Also for securing the workpiece. Try to do the alignment/check work and clamping of the actual workpiece in the same way and order.

Nice. Now do one vise across two mills.

I.wishi could get the accuracy you do! I have an old Smithy and it is a tough thing to work with.

Thanks for sharing! What’s the downside? Put a torque wrench on the jaw clamp to tighten when you setup.

I’m on to you with that whole mocha frappa cappa drink…I’m on to you. :)

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

Think of it as machinist coolant. Technically, it would probably work as a cutting fluid.

I frequently have to tram in six or even eight vises on a twelve foot CNC machine. I don't have an accurate straightedge long enough, so I have to do them one-by-one. Fiddly, but not really that difficult. Practice makes perfect.

@jomgelborn

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, even for two vices I've always done it without a straight edge. It's not a big deal.

I regularly have to use 3-5 vises all trammed within .0005" on the VF-9 at work. Get one trammed & secured, then use a pair of indicators on Noga mag bases on the spindle head zeroed on the first vise to set the other vises.

Educational as always, thank you. Now where do I go to get a pair of matched cnc vises for FREE?

Matching vises. Dial them in. Tighten them down. Done. Better yet, use keys. I there are two or more users you can agree on the shop method for installing vises.

Would the process be the same if the vices were a lot further apart?

I'm gonna go get the vises, get the vises

James, I've noticed that you haven't made any videos with the Grizzly G0704 lately. Any particular reason?

Did you check the floor of the vice?

I love when a technique is relatively easy and effective. Is there any need to also verify they're at the same height?

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

Yes, though you can't really adjust that. The vises need to be matched.

Just for laughs I want to see a video where you clock up a another vice in those vice. Hehe

I would square and bolt first vise then place second vice in place you can use a bar between vises to get close light snug bolts remove bar if used then run indicator from fixed vise to second vise tap one side at zero and tighten then indicate free side should only take a couple of minutes total to get vises done.

Did you check if they were the same height? Those vises look nice.

@jeffwombold9167

Жыл бұрын

If they're Kurt vices, their deck height will always be within 1/2 thousandths of an inch no matter what year they were made from factory. Been using them for nearly 50 years. Other brands can vary.

I use a four foot aluminum level, that was machined from the factory

Nice procedure. Just curious though; does whatever that's going to be machined have tolerances anywhere near as tight as a couple of tenths?

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

You probably shouldn't plan on milling anything to that kind of tolerance on a milling machine, but every source of error stacks up. The more you can eliminate, the better the results you'll get

I have a 45x45mm , 600mm long, cold rolled steel instead of that round material. And i get the same results. 0.02-0.03mm(I thou) in the middle. And after that you need to move them individually

I pretty much do the same as you have shown ?? Except, I use a Ground Straight Edge which is very handy for many other jobs around the shop. The poor mans way to this, is with a piece of Box Section Aluminium, and some patience to get the accuracy dialled in to where you Need it. For most jobs on a Manual Mill you don't need it absolutely perfect. On a CNC Mill it might be a different thing.

James, where did you get your precision stones?

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

Spencer Webb. Kinetic Precision.

Hi James, re your lathe, how do you maintain level of the ways, being as it's on wooded bench, sorry it's out of context of the current video,

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

I have plates under the ends with pads and screw jacks. I think I showed the system in my lathe and mill improvements video.

Ha! finally found a tool that I have two of and you don't..7/8 sockets..hahaha!!

Hello there... What about putting the vices "anywhere" with soft jaws and mill the soft jaws in one go? It should assure horizontal and vertical alignment even with mismatched vices... Well... In theory...

Hi Clough42, on the underside of the vise is the not a key slot for T-slot keys ? normal there is a precision slot for an precision block there fit in to the t-slot of you tabel, then if you remove and refit the vise the are parallel and straight.

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

The keys that came with the vises don't fit the slots on my table, unfortunately. Maybe I'll modify them at some point

@F45CNC

Жыл бұрын

@@Clough42 , Hi you can get the keys in many sizes i use them alle the time on my table for different vises and on different tables.

What about the vertical (z axis tram.) one vice may be higher than the other 👍🏻

👍👏👏👏

I was thinking you where going to put a parallel in it, or perhaps a pair of parallels, one on the top of the vise and one on the bottom.

how about packing some v-blocks or your nice 246 block against the moveable jaw so the jaw is back far enough to access the nut cutouts?

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

That would also work.

Hurray for more freebies, where I can I get some ? 🤣

The big question is how does the Tegara compare to you Kurt DX6?

I should have thought a length of wide and stout flat bar gauge plate would be superior as having greater lateral rigidity than rod. If it sat above the vice jaws you could more accurately tram off that.

Forcing the ground stock against the fixed jaws and then bringing the movable jaws in to clamp and align the vises could make it faster with the individual tramming 👍 I also wonder about their height and ways to make them match... Shims wouldnt be a great ideia, would they?

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

These two vises have consecutive serial numbers and have the actual matching heights marked on the outside of the box. I can slide a granite parallel across either vise and onto the bed of the other without so much as a click, so they're very, very close.

@randyshoquist7726

Жыл бұрын

I have two Kurt D-60s, acquired years apart. They differ in height by .002". I pondered grinding the taller one to match, but decided against it. That's within that margin where trying to make an improvement will likely make things worse. If I ever use them both and it's that critical I'll shim without shame.

Before I watch, mount and true one to mill then set second vise without mounting, mount a reference parallel bar between the vises and secure second vise. Then use dial gauge to true second vise. Will watch full when I have time.

Did I searched on that bar correctly?? That is a US$240.00 bar that you used for this? Just making sure I am looking at the same bar you used since there was no link to that in your comments. I currently only have one 6" Kurt vise and was thinking about getting another one... this technique would come in handy...Thank you.

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

No. I think mine came from Grainger, and was under $75. I don't remember exactly. They make a lot of different shaft products.

@Wachuko-1

Жыл бұрын

@@Clough42 okay, thank you. That is more reasonable... let me look again.

That's how I do it with a piece of 3/4 ground round bar.

Should the final check include putting the shaft back in the vises? Why not?

⭐🙂👍!

I want to say Abom did something similar in a recent video.

And then me,.. pounding with a four pound on my vice to get it to fit,….😂

If you are not confident the round stock of your choice is 'perfectly' straight. Mark the shaft before removing from the vices. Rotated it 180 degrees ( end for end or by spinning in the vice, same results) and repeat your indicator testing. Any bow or bend error will be doubled..(For those of us home machinist w/o a large precision Thomson shaft laying around) Side note: Did anyone else cringe just a little when the indictor transfer the gap between the vices? Bad memories!

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

I carefully preloaded it less than half the tip diameter, knowing I would want to do that. :)

What's the difference between the 690V and 690X vise?

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

The X has the clamping slots recessed into the side of the bed for closer spacing. I think the V has better drain channels to bring flood coolant back onto the table, but don't quote me on that.

@akschu1

Жыл бұрын

@@Clough42 appreciate that

Isn't it self defeating to stone the table but not the bottom of the vices?

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

I stoned both.

Why not tram one and then clamp the shaft material ? Won’t they be aligned and trammed then?

@Clough42

Жыл бұрын

Maybe. Depends how accurately it's trammed. Small errors add up over the length of the bar.

I was guessing clamping a 2 4 6 block....since I have no Thompson QS... : (

At 8:25 the needle is almost at 0 then drops back then resets to 0. Any reason for that? Bit of grit or something?

@billshiff2060

Жыл бұрын

He tapped it with the hammer, First too far then off camera knocked it back.

@75keg75

Жыл бұрын

@@billshiff2060 oh I didn’t see or hear the tap Hence the query.

Did I just see him put his drink on the mill bed?!!!!😬

what that mill press thing REALLY needs is s CUPHOLDER for that soy latte frapppbbtt extra shot lite ice