It is time for the brutally honest truth. Is the Triplex Acies good enough for Total War... Any suggestions for future tactics?

@Toxborg

3 жыл бұрын

@Nobody In my Books of Rome narrative campaign. I use it quite a lot of times there :)

@Toxborg

3 жыл бұрын

@Nobody If you are fighting the AI I would recommend the Oblique order, as that was a tactic used by the Greek hoplites. I'm making a video about it for this Tuesday, with Immersaholic as my opponent actually ;)

@Toxborg

3 жыл бұрын

@Nobody Immersaholic have a lot of plans together, so there are many things to look forward to ;)

I have used the Triplex Acies before in Rome II to great success even on Legendary difficulty. There are a few problems with your use of the formation as you have identified and I will tell you of how I got around such problems. For your first stage, never form an unbroken front line as you are giving up your maneuverability and firepower at the moment you could really be taking advantage of it. Instead hold a checker board formation and once the skirmishers have run through and are ready to fire behind the first line see the carnage which ensues as the enemies line engages your own. What occurs is that the enemy units wrap around your units to get into the flanks but also expose themselves to missile fire in the gaps of your line. No matter the quality of the enemies front line they will suffer MAJOR casualties as your ranged units hammer them with preferably javelins. Next stage, your front line is now tiring and suffered anything up to 25% casualties (with minimal friendly fire), your javelin units are either out of ammunition or close to out, so move them back through your second line and bring the second line tight into your checker board between the gaps of your first line. Now, this part is the coolest you will ever see. We understand in Total War it is very difficult to retreat units which are already engaged in combat but this action will save you a lot of men and allow you to preserve unit stamina. Charge your second line down the gaps of the checker board so that it will become a single line. Now you can pull back your tiring first line and the enemy line cant give chase as they are currently being cut to threads by a charged fresh veteran line holding them in place. By stage three, at this point the enemy line should be breaking and falling to pieces as you repeat the first stage. By this point, you should have already won as you suffer so little casualties. but let me continue in the case where your enemy has the willpower to fight on indefinitely. The fresh veteran line is now chopping their way through an exhausting enemy, which will again try to wrap around yours units. If you have missiles finish them off, otherwise charge the refreshed first line through the gaps into the enemy units to make full use of that charge bonus. Repeat by withdrawing the second line and letting them regain their breath (stamina management). If your first line is about to break or getting too tired after multiple rotations then commit to rotating in the last hope... The Triarii. Then as you showed but not fully realized, charge the Triarii through the gaps into the engagement allowing the first to two lines to disengage and regain their breath and only to repeat stages 1 2 and 3 all over... it is insanely powerful. Note a few things down tho: - Factions which can throw pila with their infantry can impressively boost the firepower of this formation. (Roman, Iberian) - The greatest weaknesses to this formation is when facing a mobile ranged force or a flanking cav offensive (as you have seen). So I must recommend matching the enemy cav on the field and maintaining a cav advantage at all costs. If you have to use your ranged ammunition on the enemy cav, do so to save the rest of your army. - In cities and towns which streets are wide enough you can use this formation to great effect with very little risk of flanking. Enjoy trying it out for yourself, it is micro intensive but the most effective meat grinder...

@Toxborg

3 жыл бұрын

@Alexander I really appreciate you taking your time to write such a long comment on my video. Your method sounds almost exactly how I use the tactic in my "Books of Rome" campaign, an therefor I can safely agree with you. But these tips won't help in a h2h, where the enemy is always controlled by another player which is why I'm calling this tactic underwhelming. With that said I'm incredibly amazed by your use of the tactic. You sound very skilled, making me very humbled by you taking a look at my video :)

@Alexander-pf4ne

3 жыл бұрын

@@Toxborg Agreed a human opponent will see what you are going and avoid the meat grinder.

@lennartvannieuwenhuijzen

2 жыл бұрын

I tried it but think I failed. I set up my army with skirmishers up front, hastati with gaps between them (white squares) and then principes (black squares), making triarii as white squares again. I tried to follow the instructions but still couldn't pull it off nicely, lost an entire group of hastati very quickly. Any pointers or visual aids I could follow?

@Alexander-pf4ne

2 жыл бұрын

@@lennartvannieuwenhuijzen I'll see if I can't create a video to post on KZread of the tactic. Make sure you pull back into your formation any groups which are taking too many casualties once the supporting group has charged in. Limiting casualties and fatigue loss means more moral and better attack/defense instead of having them fighting exhausted which reduces all three stats. Other than that there are many factors which could have played into the loss of one unit. I'll let you know when its ready.

@lennartvannieuwenhuijzen

2 жыл бұрын

@@Alexander-pf4ne A video would really help me out, though after a couple days (and reloading quick saves in campaign) I've been able to pull things off more consistently. It does take a lot of managing but the rewards can be amazing.

The fact that this tactic works against the AI, and not against human players its a nice parallel with the fact that the Romans use it mostly against unorganized enemies Also the fact that it’s really weak against cavalry makes sense, after all italic people almost didn’t used horses, like the romans, they were infantry men

@Toxborg

2 жыл бұрын

That is a great way to look at it 🤗

Nice vid man! I’ve never really heard of someone using this tactic in a tw online battle and winning yet

@Toxborg

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah... it is really tough to pull off. Maybe I can find a tactic more suitable for the Nervii or Lusitani

So. You did it right. One of the problems with the Triplex Acies in real life vs in TW is that within a unit formation, lines were brought up to aid the lighter infantry. It wasn't always entire formations. I.E Principes would run a single line into a hole in the hastati line to plug it, with the rest of the formation holding back. Entire formations weren't used unless the hastartes were in full rout, or if the Centurian deemed it necessary. The Triplex Acies was incredibly versatile thanks to this. Centuries could split off to hold flanks if necessary while the other half held the line. A Manipul consisted of 20-25 soldiers. In TW the minimum size of units is 40 I believe. I think, in order for the Triplex Acies to be more effective in TW, it would take smaller unit size and much much more micromanagement. I tried it using a large army size and effectively doubled the units. (Basically keeping two units instead of one for each manipul) and it worked amazingly well. Although I was pushing the dang pause button every 5 minutes. I learned that vs Human it's just too hard to pull off, for me, anyway

@Toxborg

2 жыл бұрын

This tactic is just one of the few that doesn't work for this game. But I've heard people use it in Warhammer. You are crazy btw. for trying this tactic with 40 units 😆

@valdimer11

2 жыл бұрын

@@Toxborg now that you mention it....I should've saved the replay 😆. I'm really keen to see the Triplex Acies in TW Warhammer. I tried looking up videos of it after I saw that comment someone made on this video. I'm curious what race was used given each race seems to be a bit more gimmicky than classic Rome, medieval, etc

@valdimer11

2 жыл бұрын

@@Toxborg Some thoughts about the Triplex. *When you double up the units in each manipul it really does make life easier although there is a lot of micromanagement. *It takes what feels like forever for units to tire in TWR2. This is a detriment to the formation in my mind. *On the flip side, units recover incredibly fast, which is a boon. In longer, drawn out battles, if the fight ends with me calling in the triarii, I can cycle through my reserves of hastati and Principe I've pulled from the fight earlier and redeploy them as needed. *Unit type matters....a lot. Hastati just aren't good enough to hold for long I've learned. We forget that TWR 2 uses units from all throughout Rome's history and because of this, hastati are simply outclassed in normal bouts. I recently did a bout vs Armenia which had heavy spears, infantry, missile units and pikes, Super Heavy Cavalry and the like. Velites are brittle skirmishers and Hastati are only medium infantry. The only reason I won was because I managed to isolate the general and kill him. But it cost dearly. Of the 3k units deployed, I only had 800 soldiers remaining. *Retrying, using Principes as the first line with armored legionaries in the second line was much much better. (More expensive though) *I've grown to like this formation very much though as, if managed well, you can deny flanks. Counter charge quite easily. The mobility and versatility is better than you think. The gaps leave great openings to counter flank. I also find that if you charge into a large line, like most people like to do, it's quite easy to smash through the middle while reinforcing your flanks and by the time the enemy can even reach your rear, (since the formation is deeper than most) you will be encircling the main line on both sides. *Simply put, it's just not as simple as run your hastati forward and pull back if you get winded. You also have to be actively aware of what the formation that is coming at you is up to and responding to it. I think this is where the Triplex shines.

@Toxborg

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah - it worked so well for its adaptability. I personally haven't touched the Warhammer franchise but I guess the dwarves could be a good faction for the tactic

@corganwampler2532

Жыл бұрын

You do realize they used this after the Marion refors as well just with cohorts insted of manupals because there needed to be larger goods of meen once they started fighting larger armies

It utterly baffles me to see that a military doctrine developed over thousands of years ago, is still being researched & taught in military academies TO THIS DAY! Let that sink in. The ancient Greeks & Romans of antiquity knew what they were doing and helped shaped the western world for centuries to come.

@Toxborg

2 жыл бұрын

It is so damn cool! I have no clue how they came up it back then, but god damn it is awesome

Great video, fun to be a part of it. Keep up the great work!

@Toxborg

3 жыл бұрын

@Yoshug thanks for taking part. Can't wait for our next battle ;)

great video !!! l really enjoy the total war battle tactics some suggestions for future tactics would be the oblique order and the inverted wedge

@Toxborg

3 жыл бұрын

I'm a very big fan of both. Especially the inverted wedge. Can't wait to find out if they work! :)

I have modded my game files to allow for 40 units instead of the base games 20. I make sure to have 6 Equites, three on each flank, to prevent enemy horse flanking maneuvers. Imho, the worst situation is fighting against a mainly cavalry army or an army with a lot of slingers, archers, or javelinmen. Fighting any army comprised of spearmen or swordsmen, the triplex acies is perfect, and i play on Legendary difficulty. Not even the OP pike phalanx of Macedon or its sister states (Egypt, Bactria, etc) cant stop the maneuverability of the formation.

@Toxborg

4 ай бұрын

That is quite interesting

Also a battlefield was basically as wide as the front line, with like a mountain or river on the flanks

@Toxborg

Жыл бұрын

That is honestly something I always forget!

@miquelr2353

Жыл бұрын

@@Toxborg loving your videos btw

i use a lot this formation when paying rome for roleplay purpose. i also try other variants, like swapping the first two lines, having principes holding the line while hastati, more sacrificable and sligtly faster, usually opens up to go for the flanks or as second line in the centre. i try also a more cav focus ditching most of triarii and maybe more for cav, i like using aor or auxiliary for cav, also for roleplay

@Toxborg

2 жыл бұрын

Me too fam. It is so enjoyable to use against the AI and makes you feel like a Roman commander

Nice vid bro

@Toxborg

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you, brotha' :)

You can win against the AI with the Triplex Acies, the key to success is, not to wait until the first line routs before you send in the second line but change both lines earlier. Same goes for the third line. But the most important thing is to secure the flanks by beating the cav with your own cav, if possible with support of the velites. After that you outflank the enemy, fall in his back and soon they should start routing. But I dont think its possible to win a battle with so little casualties as the Romans in real life did. Regarding the historical background, you made some mistakes there: You said it felt out of fashion, because it required a high level of professionalism. The truth is, the maniple formation (Triplex Acies) was actually developed further into the cohort formation in the 2nd century BC, which was way more flexible and at the same time more powerful (each cohort now contained 3 maniples or 6 centuries). You also said, the Romans could only win against unorganized armies with the Triplex Acies formation. This is not true, since the Romans defeated two times the Macedons, as well as the Seleucids in the Battle of Magnesia, and both fielded very well organized armies

@peterl1287

Жыл бұрын

Well put and beautifully described!

@dylanram4653

Жыл бұрын

" the key to success is, not to wait until the first line routs before you send in the second line but change both lines earlier." is exactly what i thought when i saw this video

works great even in rome 1 , but i suspect everyone makes their own changes to it , my own is somewhat more compact depending on the terrain or how i feel at a particular battle , if i fight for example gauls i would rarely use the velites cause the gauls are quick , but if im fighting greeks i would use lots of them cause the phalanx are slow

@Toxborg

Жыл бұрын

Great adaptability from your side. Knowledge about your enemies and how to counter them is key

I used a modified version of this tactic in campaigns but have yet to extensively test against players. I use 10 infantry as part of the main formation. This allows me to be flexible with the remaining 10 and can recruit cav, skirm, extra infantry or artillery as needed. 4 in the 1st line and 3 in the 2nd and 3rd. I also move the middle unit in the 2nd line up so it's directly behind the 2 middle units in the 1st so there's 3 in the center of the 1st row instead of just 1. This usually leads to 1 of 2 scenarios: 1. the enemy will try to spread out the formation and envelop the sides leaving the line spread thin and I can use the 3 in the center for a concentration of force and break through their center. 2. The enemy will try to match my concentration of troops in the center hoping to overpower with even more troops. the 3 in the center will pull back, drawing their troops into the formation and allowing me to envelop them. I usually try for at least 4 cavalry because any less makes it too hard to prevent my own formation from being flanked. usually 2 extra infantry in reserve as a 4th line. leaving typically 4 skirmishers making for a pretty adaptable army. or replace a skirmisher or 2 with artillery. either ballista or ballista +scorpion/polybolos.

@Toxborg

Жыл бұрын

4 cavalry units seems like the sweat spot for DEI. Any less will just make the battles to difficult and any more will just be too easy

Unfortunately you can't really use Triplex Acies in spaghetti line total war, aka online PvP games. It's actually because CA is more interested in stuff like spectacle and matched combat animations instead of simulating an authentic battlefield.

Correct me if I am wrong? but the triplex acies was not a formation that was used once engaged in combat only a formation before battle/during combat by units not currently engaged in combat?

@Toxborg

2 жыл бұрын

I would say you are pretty much on point. There were cases of battles being fought like in this video. But the main advantages is definitely it's adaptability to change formation in an instant. I have been debating to make another video on this tactic just to show it's adaptability, but for now we have so many other topics to cover ;D

@geraltgrey-mane695

2 жыл бұрын

@@Toxborg @Toxborg I thought so, yeah I was sure It was something like that :) indeed tho the only time I can think of this formation was used during the whole battle was Scipio africano vs Hannibal near Cathage? To have better chance against Hannibals elephanns? :)

@Toxborg

2 жыл бұрын

Actually the way Scipio dealt with the elephants is another example on how adaptable the formation is. He changed the checkerboard formation to tunnels... you know the rest ;D One of my favourite battles.

@geraltgrey-mane695

2 жыл бұрын

@@Toxborg Yes, indeed he did hehe :)

smart video

@Toxborg

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks mate

So the Romans still had flanks and outflankers. Your centre is just to big and you still need to win on the wings. You need 4 units on either ouflanking wing. That leaves 12 units including general and veleties for your centre. So 3 Veletes, 3 Histati, 3 Principes, 2 Triarii, 1 General Triarii unit. This should allow for an infantry square to form even if it is under manned with spear. Should create an anvil that your outflankers can hammer their outflankers against. It is a gripe really that total war limits individual army size to 20 units large so the centre is not aestheticly pleasing like it is with 4 units each line. But that is likely how you get the best balance.

The tactic does work though? It's usually what I resort to to beat a pike army. The gaps in the line is what make it so. If you can stagger the pikes you can beat them by attacking the sides and use the triarii to block the cav hammer. It's really good in the sense that it is so adaptable. In saying that though I've only tried it as Rome.

@Toxborg

2 жыл бұрын

You are using it exactly how the Romans used it. With its flexibility, they could easily change their formation to fit their needs. Excellent work! However. I don't know if you used it against the AI or a player, but in my experience, a player can sadly counter it with ease unless you change the tactic completely... It should work against the AI :D

@helios4753

2 жыл бұрын

@@Toxborg I used it against a few of my mates. The idea is, the third line stops them from getting around my flanks. 4 units in the front line 3 in the middle 4 in the third, two cav units and what ever skirmishers I can get.

@Toxborg

2 жыл бұрын

That basically sounds like the Triplex Acies. Well done, brotha. Is that your go-to tactic?

@helios4753

2 жыл бұрын

@@Toxborg not usually. I usually play a Greek faction, love me some hoplites. But when I do play Rome I use it a bit, so far I've done alright with it

@Toxborg

2 жыл бұрын

Hoplites sure are fun. The Thorax are my favourite 😉

Triplex aces is heavily used in Warhammer 2

@Toxborg

3 жыл бұрын

And it works? Thats prette freaking cool, mate. I guess I'll have to find a video about it. Thanks for noticing me :)

@slysal5

3 жыл бұрын

@@Toxborg yeah dude you popped on my home page. The algorithm got you in the total war circles now!

@Toxborg

3 жыл бұрын

For real!?! Yo thats crazy 😆

Fear the old man in a game where young men go to die.

@Toxborg

2 жыл бұрын

Such a great quote! Who said that?

That’s why they lost at Cannae

@Toxborg

Жыл бұрын

Facts