I went through 727 flight engineer school a few yrs after this accident & it was still being discussed. The engineer memorized action with loss of all generators (9 light trip) was essential power switch to standby, download by turning off galley power & one a/c pack, & power the buss...attempt to get any generator online. Speculation was that the F/E when going through this flow had accidently turned off battery switch instead of galley power as they were adjacent & unguarded switches. After this accident, a guard was placed on all 727 battery switches.

@alexandermonro6768

Жыл бұрын

This scenario is very similar to part of the plot of a novel entitled Tango November, by John Howlett, which I read many years ago. In the story, the flight engineer of a 3 rear engined airliner, accidentally turns off the battery power instead of galley power when a false fire warning required the shutting down of an engine. One generator was already inoperative. The story differs in that it occurred during the approach phase, and there were also issues with the ground lighting, but I feel that it must have been inspired by this accident. Reading that book is what sparked my interest in air crash investigation!

@georgeconway4360

Жыл бұрын

I believe this FE got a no light trip. When the generator died the Battery Switch was already OFF so there were no lights anywhere in the cockpit. That is why my FTL 727 manual loss of all generators has two memory items. #1 Battery Switch ON, #2 Essential Power Switch - Standby.

@GLEX234

Жыл бұрын

There was also speculation the battery wasn’t installed or was dead. EAL training was very clear about checking the battery. It was easily missed while on a powered plane.

@bobvicki

Жыл бұрын

@@GLEX234 YES, I ran into this once on a 737. If maintenance changes the battery on a powered up airplane, they pull the breaker to the battery charger. If they fail to reset the breaker, after a couple of APU starts, battery is dead. Very important to check battery voltage on prestart checklist.

@georgeconway4360

Жыл бұрын

@@GLEX234 From my 727 Manual “The battery switch must be ON, connecting the airplane battery to the APU controls” 1985 Manual FTL

One of the many cool traits of your editing, is that you give folks proper time to read. Many other creators don’t seem to understand details like that. Thanks.

@AllecJoshuaIbay

Жыл бұрын

I once had that problem too.

@K1OIK

Жыл бұрын

Other creators are verbal thus more information in a shorter time, and they don't use abbreviations no one knows.

@redwingdetroit9671

Жыл бұрын

So true . Alex gets it

@JK-js2td

Жыл бұрын

@@AllecJoshuaIbay thanks for all of your hard work Allec...for the 100s of plane accident simulations you have accurately recreated...as well the stories and investigations behind each flight. Its incredibly interesting to me and i hope you continue to enjoy and produce this type of content in the future! Keep doing what you are doing, good sir! 👏

@oliverclark8873

Жыл бұрын

Totally agree. But one suggestion I have made previously is that you also change image without changing caption. As a consequence of giving the viewer plenty of time to read the caption, when the image change occurs, I sometimes end up reading the same caption again. Minor point given all the hard work you put in. But I still think changing image without changing caption is not good. I don’t make KZread videos so I what do I know? It’s just a viewer’s perspective.

In remembrance to the victims: Captain Leonard Arnold Leverson, 49 First Officer Walter R. Schlemmer, 33 Flight Engineer Keith Ralph Ostrander, 29 Flight Attendant Pauline M. Varsig, 25 Flight Attendant Lynda J. Brown, 21 Flight Attendant Margaret E. Lally, 23 Howell A. Anderson, 45 George Dolinski, 48 E. Gow Joseph P. Enea, 31 Robert Georgel Mary Georgel Melody Georgel, 2 F. Hackett Rose Ann Huffer, 52 N. Jacobs J. Knite Linda Rydell, 19 L. McConnell John Rae James E. Riesing, 21 John Stuart Rehfeld, 19 Mary Albert Schroeder, 38 Robert Kenneth Schroeder, 37 Mr. Sommers Mrs. Sommers L. Swan V. W. Wathan Mr. Wathan B. Williams Mrs. Williams Inez Jimenez Bonnie Jean Cottle, 19 John Welhelm D. B. Callahan E. J. Blondau W. H. Leroy C. W. Reynolds

@donnabaardsen5372

Жыл бұрын

Thanks so much for this passenger and crew list.

@Houndini

Жыл бұрын

Poor people. Very strange cause something electronically I suspect was all wrong with it.. My extra research they was having some electronic issues with this basically new plane for a while. Bottom line you are paying that airline for a safe reliable plane & trip. So plane should be 100% correct working order no cutting corners . Saving companies money for profit should never come over cost of any human life's.

@K1OIK

Жыл бұрын

They really care about your remembrances.

@K1OIK

Жыл бұрын

@@donnabaardsen5372 Why?

@pomerau

Жыл бұрын

Thank you.

This is such a puzzling and tragic event. This aircraft was equipped with 3 state of the art engines and redundant back up electrical systems and yet the plane went down so quickly. Maybe the crew suffered spatial disorientation or panic set in after all power was lost? So sad for the loss of life and family members losing loved ones. Never take a day of life or the people we care about for granted!

@Houndini

Жыл бұрын

A Perfect storm for a disaster. I research this more. They didn't say it but they was all dancing around it. They all try put blame on the poor Flight Engineer. I feel that was very wrong. Management & Profits was the cause of this crash. That plane was basically a brand new 1 & It was screaming trying to tell them something is major wrong with me here. Because they was having a lot of repeatly electrical issues with it before & couldn't fix it. Keep on having these same issues. After accident They went & try use the old standby blame a dead guy again. Jesus Christ himself I think could not solve that problem in what like under 180 seconds max if that? Appears nobody else did too. But they all was lucky. When the main fact is that plane had repeated issues and should never left mother earth until it was fix & tested properly. If you got generator down? Fix it correctly before putting it in service. I have yet see 1 spot above earth you can pull over & stop to work on your aircraft. Killed & still killing lots of people to this day. Your luck will run out if you Keep pushing it.

@SeanBZA

Жыл бұрын

@@Houndini Could also have been a production fault in miswiring, mixing up the engine fire alarm circuits, and the generator circuits. As the test just shows they are connected correctly, a wiring mix up somewhere in the common bus sections could have had them all being swapped, so that the faulty generator was actually fine, but another was actually failing, and this one was left as the sole supply. Then it failed, and then no power was left, possibly because of yet another faulty wiring, or that the selector was not turned to emergency power, or the failing generator could have failed such that it took out the battery entirely, by shorting it out so that the main bus fuses failed. plenty of cases of this wiring error only showing up after months of flight when an engine is removed for replacement, and power it turned on for another reason and the removed engine does not show up as failed correctly.

@HitechProductions

Жыл бұрын

Seems unlikely that the pilots panicked or had some other issue. Their known actions were all correct. The evidence showed them doing what they should and understanding the problems presented to them.

@watershed44

Жыл бұрын

@@SeanBZA Seems like a massive shorting of some sort, possibly wiring loom chaffing each wire as time went by? Or electrical grounding issues, loose grounds?

@SeanBZA

Жыл бұрын

@@watershed44 Could be, but on a newish aircraft most likely wiring errors, or cables that were too tightly bound, crushing insulation with time, or connectors that were not fully mated and vibrated loose eventually.

My dad flew as a FE/2nd Officer for UAL on both 727's and DC-10's as well as a Sim instructor at the DENTK... Gotta place the blame for this one on the Flight Engineer. The 2nd Officer usually gets overlooked and discounted in these accidents, but it's his role to "Fly The Panel" and make sure that the loads are managed. This Flight Engineer was evidently clueless and seems about two steps behind the airplane. The FO/Copilot was more on top of the situation than the Engineer. I would have expected the warning about "One Generator" to have come from the Engineer and when they went down on one gen the Engineer should have started a checklist, turning off the non-essential systems and isolating that #2 generator. As for the Spatial Orientation, the aircraft was off the coast in darkness when they lost their electrical systems. That's a bad place to be to suddenly have to try and revert back to VFR conditions. They obviously couldn't make out a horizon and their attention was focused "inside" the cockpit.

@georgeconway4360

Жыл бұрын

The S/O according to the video had 664:00 TT. The accident report said he had 40:00 as a 727 F/E. Looks like he was fresh out of training. After reading the accident report I saw he had been a F/E on the DC6 as a UAL new hire. He had done about 400:00 as a DC6 FE as a United New Hire. The Captain had not flown the 727 for 6-7 weeks. He had been in DC8 training.

@californiadreaming9216

Жыл бұрын

Pastor Jerry Kliner I would not use the word "obvious" within this occurrence. Here there are many questions, many mysteries. With this occurrence, the reason(s) for the loss of control are NOT obvious.

@odinsson204

Жыл бұрын

You are correct, my dad flew for TWA. Started on the 727. People just assume the FE is a non-important position.

@michaelallen1396

Жыл бұрын

@@odinsson204 It's importance back when they had FE's was to allow the forced retired pilots to keep working after 60.

Mr. Ibay I would like to say I have been watching your videos for a long while now and you never disappoint. Your attention to detail is incredible, and your videos overall are fantastic, I have just one word for you sir BRAVISSIMO!!!

A few things not mentioned here. This was a "QC" variation of the 727. Back to that in a minute. With flaps extended, the 2 air conditioning packs rely on very powerful electrical fans to provide necessary airflow. Once flaps are retracted, the speed of the airplane is sufficient the fans shut down. Two engine generators can supply all the power needed to run both packs, but one can't along with all other electrical loads. When necessary to unload the electrical system, one of the steps is to switch off power to the galleys. Here's where it being a QC comes in. The galley power switch was located adjacent to the battery switch. It would be very easy for the second officer, in the dark and under stress, to shut off battery power ( hence, standby emergency power ) instead of galley power. PS. My former brother-in-law was a United mechanic at LAX. He was on duty that night, and he strongly urged his supervisor to pull that airplane out of service until the generator could be repaired. He didn't. The daughter of one of United's high up management was on board, along with a few "deadheading" crew members. I note that it is "assumed" that the S/O had one pack and galley power switched off before departure. If that's the case, it is puzzling.

@RonnDogg9900

Жыл бұрын

Yours is a valuable contribution. Please take a look at my reply and see if it might help shed some light. You have better systems knowledge than I do, but I did get an input from a senior USA 727 captain some years ago who explained what happened quite clearly. Our interaction occurred at Edwards AFB in 1984. He was a Brigadier General in the USAF Reserves at Travis while the top 727 captain for UAL out of SFO.

@smwca123

Жыл бұрын

Some of the deadheading crew members were pilot trainees headed for training at DEN.

What a bizarre and tragic outcome, didn’t seem like they really had all that much time to figure out what was going on, it all happened so quickly.

Back in 69, the Flight Recorder was a roll of steel tape. The recorder etched the aircrafts flight parameters on the tape. I think only 7 or 9 parameters were recorded. That was state of the art then.

@GigsVT

Жыл бұрын

It wasn't state of the art per se, but it was robust and likely to survive a crash.

@57Jimmy

Жыл бұрын

Just one step up from cavemen chiseling daily life onto the rocks!

Two accidents come to mind with similar facts (to some extent): 1. Air Illinois Flight 710. There was a power failure, and as a result, the plane was limited to battery power. The pilots miscalculated that they had enough power to get to their destination; they didn't. When the power ran out, their instruments failed. With the flight being at night, they quickly became spatially disoriented and crashed. 2. Swissair Flight 111. This is obviously well-known for the fire that crippled the plane. But ultimately, the fire brought the plane down by disabling all electrics in the cockpit, including navigational equipment and attitude indicators. The first officer who was flying by himself (the captain died fighting the fire) was left with a few small poorly-lit standby instruments with which to navigate and keep the plane upright. With the flight being at night, and with those small, poorly-lit instruments being obscured by smoke, he also became spatially disoriented, and crashed after searching in vain for the airport for six minutes.

@pomerau

Жыл бұрын

I didn't know the Captain died in flight. Are you sure? I guess it was recorded somehow.

@nicholasbutler153

Жыл бұрын

@@pomerau It's not certain but highly probable. 1. We know he left his seat and didn't return. He can be heard leaving his seat on the CVR, and his seat was recovered from the wreckage in the egress position. 2. We know he didn't go into the cabin to escape the fire. Had he done so, he would have warned everyone what was happening, which would have led to preparations for a crash or ditching. But the chief flight attendant was not wearing his life jacket, so there was obviously no such preparation. (Interestingly, many passengers were wearing life jackets. One way or another, they worked out what was happening without being told.) 3. Therefore, we know he left his seat but remained in the cockpit. He remained in the cockpit with all of the poisonous smoke, and the flames, without his oxygen mask. That he didn't return shows, at a minimum, that he was incapacitated. I'd be very surprised if he managed to stay alive in that environment for six whole minutes.

@pomerau

Жыл бұрын

@@nicholasbutler153 I think you are right. Thank you. I have a poor memory for all the details of an incident or disaster (that one was horribly real), but I didn't know that the left seat was found like that.

@nicholasbutler153

Жыл бұрын

@@pomerau You're welcome. It's such a fascinating (and terribly tragic) accident. I've read the official accident report many times.

@marcmcreynolds2827

Жыл бұрын

American Airlines Flight 191 (Chicago DC-10 crash): Electrical power for stick shaker, slat warning, stall warning and missing instrumants could have been had simply by turning the EMER PWR switch located on the overhead panel in front of the pilots. The NTSB report stated repeatedly that there was no explanation for why the crew didn't do this. Some KZread videos cite "flawed placement" of the backup power switch, but that's actually a bus tie located at the foot of the FE's station -- not relevant to the 191 accident because torn/shorted wires at the separated pylon would have thwarted its operation.

This was one reason why us old services captains even flying civilian always had a torch to hand; usually the neat clip on Luftwaffe pattern. Scratching around in the Congo things got in the electrics, became mush but left us - one flying, one holding the torch and seeing what was to do.....

FYI. United actually thought sabotage. My father-in-law worked at LAX. They guarded their planes. I remember this well.

@K1OIK

Жыл бұрын

Your father in law was lazy?

@watershed44

Жыл бұрын

@Randall Carrier Wow, interesting, the first reaction I had to what happened to this plane was.. WHO was on the passenger manifest!?!?!

An already faulty plane was sent up, only takes one more for a major problem, that's why redundancies are put in place, never rely on the redundancies or minimums, that's just asking for trouble.

@watershed44

Жыл бұрын

@davebuts I would have been very reluctant to take that plane up that way. Also would have been interesting to see the history of previous electrical and mechanical issues!

@moosepasshippie

Жыл бұрын

I have jump seated on a 727 with a generator not working . This was over 20 years ago. It seemed like there were INOP stickers everywhere several yellow warning lights on during the entire flight. The flight crew did brief a second generator fault before we departed. I believe they had one more flight before the new generator could be installed.

@watershed44

Жыл бұрын

@@moosepasshippie Was this a regional cargo carrier ?

@singleproppilot

Жыл бұрын

If that doesn’t make you feel warm and fuzzy, let me tell you that today’s two engined planes are allowed to fly with only one engine driven generator working. The backup is they run the APU the entire flight.

@smwca123

Жыл бұрын

@@moosepasshippie ALPA had recommended 2 years before this tragedy that its members not accept an aircraft with an inoperative generator.

That engine failure reminds me of the motion picture *Fate Is the Hunter*.

It’s hard to imagine that a five month old airplane would be flying with an inoperative system, with tape over the indicators. Friggin riggin at its worst.

@davevictoriadriskell2111

Жыл бұрын

Placards must be placed over inoperable components and a log book entry made. Can be dispatched if the MEL so states.

@singleproppilot

Жыл бұрын

If airplanes never broke, they wouldn’t need mechanics like me.

@chipps1066

Жыл бұрын

i concur,this airplane made no money and i'm sure cost the airline a lot to the families.

@singleproppilot

Жыл бұрын

You guys simply don’t know what you’re talking about. Big airplanes are extremely complex machines, and stuff breaks. It would be impossible to run an airline operation if every airplane had to be perfect every flight. That’s why deferred maintenance is allowed. The MEL is an approved document that allows dispatch of an airplane with broken equipment, as long as certain conditions are met and operational limitations are respected. If you ever read one, you might be surprised at what’s allowed and what is not.

@anthonycameron2067

7 ай бұрын

People would be surprised at the master Mel list at Boeing where items are down to bare bones

Love the old school livery great channel great content done well

@K1OIK

Жыл бұрын

The channel below does not waste time on useless information like pilots names and the last time they pooped. Nor does he use abbreviation that only "cool" viewers would understand. Nor are characters printed but rather narration that moves along much faster. kzread.info/dash/bejne/qGqblsmkmbvLetY.html

The Leverson family were our friends and neighbors in Santa Ana, CA, for many years. They lived one house away from mine. I grew up with Arn Leverson's kids, and Arn was a very nice man and highly respected in our neighborhood. The Leverson family had recently moved to a very nice upscale neighborhood about a mile away, and we were all still in close contact with them. I remember that crash very well, I read about it the next day in a newspaper during passenger loading on an Air Cal 737 in San Francisco. I was a college wrestler at the time, and we were heading home from a match in Concord. This happened during a record breaking rain event in Southern California, and as someone else here mentioned, the UAL 727 was flying in the weather, zero visibility (pitch black night)... worst case scenario for total electrical failure at low altitude. In 1984, after I had been a USAF E-3A AWACS aircraft commander, USAF flight safety officer and aircraft accident investigator, I was teaching flight physiology to aircrews at Edwards AFB. One of our students in a recurring refresher class was THE senior UAL 727 Captain out of SFO. He was attending training because he was still attached to a USAF reserve squadron at Travis AFB. I specifically asked him if he knew anything about what happened of Arn Leverson's aircraft that night. His explanation lines up well with some of the others who have brought substance to this discussion. The backup power to emergency lights and flight instruments did have to be selected manually. During this emergency situation, that (four position rotary selector, as I recall) switch was allegedly turned to the left, OFF position instead of to the correct position, to the right. I did pass the 727 FE ground exam, but that was almost 40 years ago so please forgive my fuzziness on exact switch nomenclature and the other positions. It is not at all inconceivable an inexperienced second officer/flight engineer might turn the power switch the wrong direction in the darkness and under extreme duress. The UAL pilot who related this had chosen to fly 727s because he could be the senior 727 captain in SFO. As a family man, this gave him 100% control over his schedule so he never missed any important event with his family. He knew that airplane inside and out, related that the Flight 266 crash became the stuff of lore amongst the UAL community, and was quite fluent as he described what had happened. As I recall, he said the #2 generator failed instantly after the #1 engine shut down. It's not hard to consider that a possibility. Under those conditions, a mistaken switch selection that could have restored some lighting and critical flight instruments precluded any recovery. As with so many aviation tragedies, a systems upgrade, in this case to automatic switching to emergency cockpit instrument power, was implemented. This change might well have saved any number of aircraft, crew and passengers in later years, in any number of different aircraft models. I cannot say why the electrical system was designed as it was... maybe those were the limits of technology at the time. Whatever the reason, the improvements eventually made addressed the hazards inherent to manual switching under extremely adverse emergency conditions.

@bobvicki

Жыл бұрын

The 737, designed some 5 yrs later, had major system improvements, particularly electrical. No more need to parallel generators & the high amp draw electric pack fans replaced with pneumatic ones. Only 2 engine driven generators were needed, each powering its own buss & if one failed, unnecessary loads were automatically shed & the remaining generator would power essential elements of both. At your leisure, you could start the flight rated APU & be back to normal 2 gen operation. There were other system improvements like automatic pressure controller which was also used on 727-200. Of course, all this was done to eliminate the F/E position & operate with just two pilots.

I'm gonna be wearing a depends for seniors on my next airplane trip ,a few hundred of this type uploads have made me a infrequent flyer

727 my favorite plane followed by the DC-8 and 9.... great work you do ! Love your reenactments

Excellent reconstruction of an early 727 incident. Thank you for reaching back to something that made what I would consider an essential part of a checklist.

Absolutely compelling to read the commentary and fully appreciate the situation in the cockpit !

Fortunately such tragic incidents are few and far between, and they seem to be getting more rare as the years pass. My father flew everything Eastern had for 30 years until he retired as senior L-1011 captain. He never even had a close call.

@erwinschmidt7265

Жыл бұрын

On Delta L-1011 Dec '78 that ran outta gas over Marietta GA, 1st Ofcr kicked RAT out gliding to ATL. W/stacks of liners circling, let us land 1st. Alit on Foote, heavy brakes, kidde cornered 1st exit/entry to taxiway, across apron, kidde corner hard right, pulled in vacant AMR Gate. When speed dropped pwr failed, lost lights, so fire/rescue lost us, & 4-AMR ground crews put out tire fires w/potable H2O. Capt USAF fighter jockey so not upset at all! Would you call that a close call?

I was a B727 flight engineer and they drilled in to us our #1 duty above all else was no matter what happened…our lives depended on 3 fast memorized action items: 1. Turn the Essential Power dial to Standby (Battery) 2. Download quickly high power draw items and anything you didn’t need 3. Go back and Power a Bus I remember during the initial FE checkride the examiner saying if we failed at any time during the ride to keep Essential Power powered, it was a bust. My partner Ricky let the red light illuminate and his airline career was over that day before it ever started.

Unfortunately, this accident seems to present more questions than answers. Was it unusual for a relatively new 727 to encounter this type of electrical problem?

I love these, keep it up Allec!

@K1OIK

Жыл бұрын

The channel below does not waste time on useless information like pilots names and the last time they pooped. Nor does he use abbreviation that only "cool" viewers would understand. Nor are characters printed but rather narration that moves along much faster. kzread.info/dash/bejne/qGqblsmkmbvLetY.html

Thanks Allec. Nicely done and very informative. Really like your videos.

This one really hit hard. Just a combination of bad factors all came together. Great work, Allec.

1/18/1969 United 266 Route: LA-Denver Future Destinations: Milwaukee Name: Leonard Leverson, Walter Schlemmer, Keith Ostrande Age: 49, 33, 29 Flying Time: 1.5599315 yr, 10.31643 mo, 3.77381 wk On Board: 38 Plane Age: 5 mo Plane Type: 727-22C Status: Power outage and Crash Survivors: 0% Congrats for making me your first view!

Well done again Allec.

@K1OIK

Жыл бұрын

The channel below does not waste time on useless information like pilots names and the last time they pooped. Nor does he use abbreviation that only "cool" viewers would understand. Nor are characters printed but rather narration that moves along much faster. kzread.info/dash/bejne/qGqblsmkmbvLetY.html

A schoolmate of mine...Tammy KatZ.....her dad worked for Warner Bros. He was on board for a business trip to Milwaukee.....we all resided I'm Canoga Park...LA. I will never forget that day and the day after.....we were 11.

love the vintage airport pictures 🙂

RIP To the passengers and crew of United Air Lines Flight 266

Allec, always the best :-)

My older brothers highschool girlfriend and fiance died on this flight. Originally we were told that the plan got hit by lightning and inverted crashing into the bay. Her name was Bonnie Cottle, her dad was a pilot for United Airlines and they flew for free..

Thank you.

Thanks for sharing, I did not know about this accident. God speed to all on board.

From reading the NTSB report it was shown that a lot of the wreckage was not recovered...so a lot of questions remained unanswered.

Two generator dispatch. It is mandatory that only ONE pack be used any time the flaps are not up. The reason for this is that the two HUGE pack fans, that automatically come on any time the flaps are not up (or when the airplane is on the ground) draw more current than the two operating generators can handle. With the loss of another generator, or the loss of an engine, it is IMPERATIVE that the operating pack be turned off (DOWNLOAD - DEPRESSURIZE - DUMP). The remaining generator will not carry the load of an operating pack fan. It will cause the remaining generators to trip off line, and thereby causing the loss of all electrical power (save for the STBY instruments). The FE, in this case, caused the crash of this airplane, and the loss of those lives.

The end result of this accident is the FAA mandated the SAI Standby Attitude Indicator. The SAI is an independent instrument with it’s own battery on the front panel between the Captain and F/O.

You do such a good job but I have a request. In Oct 92 the West Virginia Air National Guard flew a C130 into High Voltage power lines in Berkeley Springs WV kill 6 some good friends of mine. You should research that accident for a possible video. Decoy 81 was the call sign.

Another good video.😍

@K1OIK

Жыл бұрын

The channel below does not waste time on useless information like pilots names and the last time they pooped. Nor does he use abbreviation that only "cool" viewers would understand. Nor are characters printed but rather narration that moves along much faster. kzread.info/dash/bejne/qGqblsmkmbvLetY.html

As soon as it was noted that the Number 3 generator was inoperative, I know this was going to have a bad ending.

@peteconrad2077

Жыл бұрын

And yet aircraft fly with a generator out every day.

@TheUtuber999

Жыл бұрын

You saw the title of the video before that, though. 😁

I was flying in a US Air Force medevac plane once (as a patient), not sure if it was a 727, but it had the typical three-engine configuration in the empennage. Or maybe it was just two engines in the back, I don't remember. My seat was facing toward the rear and I could look out the window directly at the left (#1) engine intake. Sometime during the flight, as I was looking at the engine, I thought I noticed a momentary spark jumping in-between the engine nacelle and fuselage. It wasn't a "big" spark, but just something that looked like a quick static discharge. I didn't overly concern myself with it, although during the stopover at the next base, mechanics were on a stepladder looking over that engine, so I think the pilots had some sort of indication of something going on with that engine. It also confirmed that the spark had not been my imagination. I suppose I should have mentioned to someone what I had seen, but I didn't. We went on to our next destination, which may or may not have been our final destination (I'm not sure, this was many years ago), where my journey ended.

@watershed44

Жыл бұрын

@Rob S I'm always amazed that people are so reluctant to say something if you notice what might be an anomaly like this on a plane. What's the worst that can happen? You were wrong and nothing bad happens....or you are right and you save your life and those of others!

@buckfaststradler4629

Жыл бұрын

@@watershed44 Cabin crew would give you some brainless dismissive answer for sure !

@no1ded

Жыл бұрын

When you don't remember much, less is more.

As my mom would say: "by the grace of God go I....". May they all rest in peace.

@K1OIK

Жыл бұрын

"Virtue Signaling by posting RIP all over the internet while doing actually nothing to better the world. Social media narcissism at its finest." kzread.info/dash/bejne/goihpdqbk7W-o5c.html

Thank you for this! Hey, if you can, let us know some time how your flight training is going.

Wow! I didn’t see that coming.

Trial and error. Fix the problem and get back up there until it fails again. Then more trial and error. Problem is people tend to die when things go wrong so high in the air. But that’s the only way for improvements to occur sometimes. Whether they think about it or not, everybody on every plane everywhere every day risks death so that future fliers fly safer. I for one would rather not think about it. Just wanna get home for Thanksgiving.

@peteconrad2077

Жыл бұрын

No. The defect was acceptable.

Very Nice !

Despite the air crashes…. A nostalgic time, when our country acted civil

I worked on 727’s for many years. We would often have to MEL a generator, CSD, GCU and I found it to be a nuisance item on these aircraft. I noticed the flight engineer had only 600 or so total time flying. Considering he is the one that activates and monitors all the generator/CSD switches and has all the important circuit breakers next to him I’m wondering if he didn’t have more to do with this accident or could have prevented it. His words were, “ I don’t know what’s going on” if I’m not mistaken.

I have kind of a dumb question, but when the pilots realized they were on a single generator, why did they not start the APU? If the APU had been running and the #2 gen went out, the APU could have been selected and restored full electrical power to the aircraft.

@jyralnadreth4442

Жыл бұрын

Not a dumb question at all. I will search for info. The APU is started by the battery system on the 727. In this case either the battery wasn't activated or it failed, which considering the NSTB couldn't explain how the Aircraft lost all power from Gen 2 (the crew on the CVR clearly were watching gen 2 as they commented on watching its electrical load carefully) is worrying.

@georgeconway4360

Жыл бұрын

If I recall correctly the APU was ground only.

@bradcrosier1332

Жыл бұрын

@@georgeconway4360 - You are correct, the APU on the 727 was only able to be operated on the ground.

@grafhilgenhurst9717

Жыл бұрын

Ugh. My recollection of the "Miracle on the Hudson" incident is that Captain Sully starting the APU immediately maintained power and lighting to the instruments, and helped save their lives.

@georgeconway4360

Жыл бұрын

@@grafhilgenhurst9717 Yes, but that that was an Airbus A320 2 engine fairly young. The 727 is a early mid 1960s airplane with 3 engines. I’ve flown DC8, VC10 and never saw an APU.

This is a great re-creation of this terrible accident. Another example of a costly aviation learning experience.

I worked with a United Mechanic that was there that night, they determined the Flight Engineer turned the battery off, it was not guarded and presumed he was turning the galley bus off and hit it by mistake since it is near the battery switch. Guarded battery switches and an independently powered standby attitude indicator was the result of this crash.

@michaelallen1396

Жыл бұрын

The UAL mechanic told me when they hit the water nose first the number 2 engine broke loose and went down the fuselage interior inside. He was traumatized by it, they sent him to the recovery mission of the parts and fuselage, it was in shallow water.

@billdennis2993

Жыл бұрын

We heard about this incident in A&P program in 70's as one of the airfrsme instructors had tried to keep it from flying that night and IIRC said battery back up wasn't armed and fire indication was false. RIP to all those souls lost.

@slougees

Жыл бұрын

​@@michaelallen1396I don't think it was in shallow water and a UAL mechanic being part of a recovery team? Doubt any of that is true.

What isn’t mentioned here is that ESSENTIAL POWER could have powered the flight instruments. Normally as I recall, Essential power is left in the #3 gen position. Had the FE selected Ess Pwr to Battery they would have been able to land successfully. When I flew 727 out of LAX I was always aware of this accident- flying over the water it is easy to be disoriented (visually) with no horizon if it is night ops and overcast or smog. sad unnecessary accident.

How the hell would they go through that ‘loss of all generators’ checklist in a pitch black cockpit?

Not familiar with the older 727s but seems like bringing the #1 power lever to idle to verify that it was an engine fire before shutting it down. That would of kept that generator online.

@bradcrosier1332

Жыл бұрын

Yes, that’s pretty much standard procedure for every turbine aircraft I can remember.

@georgeconway4360

Жыл бұрын

That is standard but I remember one airline that pulled the Fire Handle first in their DC8. They may have done the same for all aircraft types. Back in that era cockpits of the same type airplane could be very different and normal procedures could also be very different. I recall in the DC8 at my original airline fuel boost pumps were left off for Takeoff and turned on after leaving the ground. It was explained to me they didn’t want the pumps on in the event things were wrong and fuel lines were broken and there was fire. I trained at EAL for simulator and local airplane and they had the pumps on for takeoff and turned them off after landing gear retraction. Eventually the FAA mandated the pumps be on all the time. I think with one generator MELd a briefing that in the event of a fire warning airborne we will cancel the bell and pull the throttle to idle and momentarily pause before shutting the fuel off because a large percentage of fare warnings are from bleed air leaks and the alert may go away at idle power.

According to the Accident Report the S/O had only 40 hours as a F/E on the 727. That seems to indicate he probably less than 15 hours since completing training. The video says he had only 664 total flight hours. Overall and 727 experience very low. I later discovered the S/O had previously been a DC6 S/O at UAL and had about 400:00 DC6 F/E time.

It seems the second officer didn't turn on standby power.

@SSN515

Жыл бұрын

Rookie Flight Engineer didn't. And he lost his cool and didn't maintain a even strain.

@pastorjerrykliner3162

Жыл бұрын

Yup.

Although I’m a Boeing pilot I’ve never flown the 727 but I’m sure there were STBY instruments (attitude indicator and airspeed). Total electrical failure would still yield approximately 30 minutes of guidance using these STBY instruments

@slougees

Жыл бұрын

Not in 1969...

As a rock fan I've always been curious about the last flight of Lynyrd Skynyrd. The movie Street Survivors tells the story well, but I'd like to see more detail on what exactly brought them down. Request for the Lynyrd Skynyrd plane crash of 1977, keep up the great work.

@californiadreaming9216

Жыл бұрын

DukesMusic hi. The Lynyrd Skynyrd plane crash story, although tragic, is fascinating. Wicky is your best shot. Seems that they ran out of fuel because their Convair had faulty fuel gauges and the pilots (who, according to eyewitnesses, were known for boozing while working), failed to check the fuel level manually before takeoff.

@DukesMusic84

Жыл бұрын

@@californiadreaming9216 Thanks for the info, yes it is fascinating

Never been first here. I've been waiting for today's upload and look forward to watching it as I do all of your excellent work!

Back in those days standby attitude indicators didn't have their own batteries or lights in them. For years now they've had their own batteries completely separate from all other electrical sources (other than charging from the main system). These unfortunate pilots had nothing to indicate which way was up on that dark night.

@georgeconway4360

Жыл бұрын

Back in those days airplanes did not have any SAI. This accident is the reason the FAA mandated the SAI.

Heartbreaking.

Huh. Climbout at Bradley, at around 1985, older People’s Express 727. Lost all cabin power and engines started spooling down. About 10 seconds later, spoolup and normal lights. This event makes me wonder what almost happened to me.

Another thing I noticed was the tone of the conversation in the cockpit. It is far more 'sterile' and disciplined now. The captain, God rest his soul, didn't seem to comprehend the engine fire warning and ask the f/O or f/e to check it before shutting down the engine. In that time, they did not call an emergency to the tower at once (pan-pan-pan not used at the time) nor run checklists.

Looks like all the swiss cheese holes lined up perfectly to enable this crash. First was the inop. number 3 generator. But if the MEL says you can go with it down you'd better come up with another (really good and valid) reason to scrub - if the inop gen is your worry.

Wow, so tragic. The plane should have never taken off. The rookie engineer probably played a role as well. RIP.

@K1OIK

Жыл бұрын

"Virtue Signaling by posting RIP all over the internet while doing actually nothing to better the world. Social media narcissism at its finest." kzread.info/dash/bejne/goihpdqbk7W-o5c.html

Me personally I want my plane ✈💺 aircraft fully functional. None of this is out but that's not, turn this on after this, etc. It just keeps stuff down 😏

A tough one to watch... it's the little things... RIP

Airplane must have been built on a Monday.

@watershed44

Жыл бұрын

@Paul Cooper I was thinking that too, perhaps this plane was a "lemon".

Took that flight a couple times in 1970 & 72 as a teenager. Can't remember hearing anything about this accident.

I figured duct tape and possibly a product similar to "flex seal",a pair of vice grip and a can of W.D.40 were left behind by Billy Bob when he gone done with the generator job and consequently sucked into the engine at take off. A Generac would have been handy.

@shay4ojibwa638

Жыл бұрын

Don’t talk about my Daddy that way 😃

Sad!!

A brand new airplane and it still had all these problems.

After this incident all the test pilots at ual maintenance base started wearing small flashlights hung around their necks. If the engineer had one he could see that this plane had the battery switch and galley power switched from Boeing a qc aircraft. A flashlight could have saved the flight.

@georgeconway4360

Жыл бұрын

All three crew members were required to carry a flash light. I believe 2 D cell batteries required.

@drreed917

Жыл бұрын

That's true, mainly used for preflight purposes and stowed in their crew bags. Hard to find in a panic. That's why the flight test pilots were then required to wear the pen light type lights.

@georgeconway4360

Жыл бұрын

@@drreed917 Probably hard to find in 1968.

If I'm in the left seat and the Dispatcher declares that plane airworthy... We're not flying today.

@watershed44

Жыл бұрын

@John Crumpley Glad to see I wasn't the only one to think this way! Just the fact that this is essentially a brand new plane with those problems would make me very concerned. A lemon?

@peteconrad2077

Жыл бұрын

You’d be fired then. The aircraft was airworthy.

@slougees

Жыл бұрын

​@peteconrad2077 no pilot gets fired for turning down an airplane for safety concerns...at a decent arline.

I know it sounds like 20/20 hindsight, but even back then surely someone was capable of thinking automatic switchover to backup battery? In moments of crisis the last thing you want is to overload the flight crew with stuff like that. Sad story. Progress in safety seems always to be paid in lives, and I guess the root of that problem has ultimately been money and profit. :(

@DrMackSplackem

Жыл бұрын

Well then, there's only one thing to do: We must eliminate profit. If nobody profits, nobody dies (if I understand you correctly).

@Ralph2

Жыл бұрын

@@DrMackSplackem That's not really the thrust of my comment Joe. Or rather, you are taking an extreme view. For example, let's say the design team at Boeing foresaw this possibility but it was side lined (probably alongside many other suggestions) in order to make the aircraft price competitive against Airbus etc. My point was that almost all shortfalls can be traced back to money, that was all. And thank you for your reply.

@joejakubec9708

Жыл бұрын

"But even back then." They put a man on the moon, even back then.

@DrMackSplackem

Жыл бұрын

@@Ralph2 No, it's simply that the one thing all carriers have in common is that it's profits which allow them to operate at all. They must pay everyone who works with them enough so they don't lose them to their competition. There's a very fine line to walk there. Information is incomplete at any given time, and margins are always razor-thin. If you don't believe me, go start any kind of company and tell me what you've learned.

@marcmcreynolds2827

Жыл бұрын

Automatic switchover would eliminate the ability of the crew to determine whether to start the clock running on the limited battery life at that moment vs later on. If it automatically came on during stable cruise flight, for example, power might be depleted before landing. Always tradeoffs.

When they shutdown that engine and 1st Officer remarked to Captain that they would now be on just one generator the Captain replied "Huh?". That should have already been the Captains first concern. Captain may have become lax in his familiarity of emergency procedures. MHO.

♥️

For whatever reason, the second I saw that the problem system was taped over, my blood immediately ran cold. Part of me hoped that they would make it.

If in doubt... Pull UP!!!

The aircraft is only five months old and already has generator problems.

Can you do Alrosa Flight 514? That would be an interesting one!

Even with no electrical power the pitotstatic system would work providing airspeed, altitude and vertical speed references. It appears to me the pilot became distracted by the power loss and failed to retain control of the aircraft. It is also likely that head down turning at night he became spatially disoriented or had vertigo ..

@slougees

Жыл бұрын

There was no light or attitude indicator

This plane had electrical problems not repaired before they took off. Maybe repairs should have Been made before any more flights. Sounds confusing the way Dispatch approved another flight knowing there was Generator problems . So sad. May God rest their souls😢

The captain didn’t know what the engine fire warning sounded like and had no idea what the First Officer officer was talking about when he said a generator would be activated. It really seems that he didn’t know how to act in an emergency and also didn’t know how to assess either.

Maybe i missed it, but i still don't understand why the pilots couldn't land safely even without electric power. Did they not have visual references to guide them?

I was recently watching a vidio on board the first prototype concorde which which pretty naked of cabin interior so dislayed all the wiring harness,s running through the cabin never mind everywhere else.My point is that there must be miles of wiring in a sizeable airliner.I guess just one fault in a criticle circuit can cause havoc.In this 727,s case with a downed generator in the first place why was it not investagated as to the reason it wasnt able to go on line? Was the fault with the gen set or another issue that would trip it? This flight should never have been permitted.

Did the aircraft have a APU? Can it operate while flying? Just wondering about that.

And now this one I heard of (reference to flight 266)

@GigaChadMain69420

Жыл бұрын

Of twa

RIP🥺🥺🥺

@K1OIK

Жыл бұрын

why?

@TheUtuber999

Жыл бұрын

@@K1OIK What other way should they rest?

@jakerson181

Жыл бұрын

@@K1OIK Don't worry Burt. The only response people will have when learning of your death is "It's about time" while smiling from ear to ear.

@K1OIK

Жыл бұрын

@@TheUtuber999 "Virtue Signaling by posting RIP all over the internet while doing actually nothing to better the world. Social media narcissism at its finest." kzread.info/dash/bejne/goihpdqbk7W-o5c.html

The first officer seemed sharp, the captain not so much. It’s too bad the FO wasn’t able to save it in time. RIP to those lost

@K1OIK

Жыл бұрын

FO?

@pastorjerrykliner3162

Жыл бұрын

@@K1OIK (F)irst (O)fficer

@K1OIK

Жыл бұрын

@@pastorjerrykliner3162 What did he do with the time he saved not typing irst fficer?

@jakerson181

Жыл бұрын

@@K1OIK You've been coming to this channel every week for years now and you want us to believe you still have no idea what FO stands for? That would make you about the most stupid person on Earth. We all suspected this long ago but what do you see as the value in confirming it?

@K1OIK

Жыл бұрын

"Virtue Signaling by posting RIP all over the internet while doing actually nothing to better the world. Social media narcissism at its finest." kzread.info/dash/bejne/goihpdqbk7W-o5c.html

So the PF got disoriented? Maybe turning right would have not taken them over the bay where they had no ground reference. It's not a good sign when your Captain responds to emergency condition communication from his copilot with "...HUH?"

@georgeconway4360

Жыл бұрын

They took off on RW24, over water, night, ceiling less than 1000’, no lights.

Check essential power!!!!!

Maybe I am wrong here in my thought, but I can't help but wonder if somehow the Flight Engineer accidently made an error of some kind that unfortunately lead to this plane coming down. I'm not saying it's his fault, but I noticed he was apparently not that experienced. I remember Allec listed him as having only 634 flight hours. It could be I'm wrong as I'm no expert here, but that doesn't suggest very experienced to me. Just wondering if he accidently did something or if there was something he forgot to do.

This plane should have never been allowed to fly. Tape over switches; generator not working. Captain should have said: Nope ain’t flying this POS!

As things go bad you just tape over the relevant instruments, knobs and buttons. To make sure they don't work pull all of the relevant circuit breakers too. When everything craps out put tape over your mouth so the passengers don't hear you screaming. Jeeeessshhhh...! 😵

I think this was UAL's prettiest paint scheme. The one now is just kinda blah.

Looks like a totally unnecessary crash there. So sad…

@rogerbee697

Жыл бұрын

👎 could you describe a necessary crash?🙄

@maesc2001

Жыл бұрын

@@rogerbee697 okay, so you’re not familiar with all the English language nuances. An unnecessary crash means a totally avoidable crash. As opposed for example to having a bomb on board that rips your fuselage apart. That would not be called ‘necessary’ but unavoidable. Hope this was useful. Have a nice day.

@rogerbee697

Жыл бұрын

@@maesc2001 OK. So you’re not familiar with simplicity. Also, a civilian plane with a bomb on it is not a necessity or leads to necessity after detonated. There would be a result, not necessity. Your initial comment is stupid. Deal with it. Hope THAT was helpful. GFY…OK?

*Commercial pilots, get in here!* Would you have taken this plane up as it was with the knowledge you had? I really am curious about this! Thanks.

@peteconrad2077

Жыл бұрын

Yes.

@watershed44

Жыл бұрын

@@peteconrad2077 Trolls NOT welcome, and you have never been a commercial pilot.

@peteconrad2077

Жыл бұрын

@@watershed44 you asked for one. You got one. If you’re just going to claim anyone who answers isn’t, it makes your comment redundant. I and any Pilot I know would have taken this aircraft as per the MEL.

@watershed44

Жыл бұрын

@@peteconrad2077 You are NOT a "commercial" pilot, so your input is not what I was looking for.

@peteconrad2077

Жыл бұрын

@@watershed44 and you know that how? My 18,000 hours and TRI TRE are interested to know how idiots assess my qualifications.