I will continue to state that Sean was robbed of a well-deserved Oscar for his portrayal of Sam.

@MsMaryLS

4 ай бұрын

I totally agree! I loved him so much!

@Lortagreb

4 ай бұрын

Yeah Sean Bean was great

@MsMaryLS

4 ай бұрын

@@Lortagreb he's talking about Sean Astin who played Samwise.

@Lortagreb

4 ай бұрын

@@MsMaryLS no U misunderstand Sean Bean was great 👍🏿

@juletaurus

4 ай бұрын

@@Lortagreb They ALL were.

Maybe it was as hard for Tolkien to say goodbye to everyone as it is for us.

@christienelson1437

4 ай бұрын

True Tolkien had more to say but dreamers like to write their own endings and be their own heroes, so he was kind to the world.🙏💕🙏💕

@erikhoff5010

3 ай бұрын

For Tolkien, probably much harder. He created them.

@christopherbarnett2961

3 ай бұрын

I agree. Can’t imagine saying goodbye ever!

@jaidillon1790

3 ай бұрын

The LOTR movies and books have been on repeat for 20+ years in my life. I've spent a lot of time in Middle Earth. A place I could never say goodbye to at this point.

@Alasdair54

3 ай бұрын

I would have liked the later stories of Sam, Rosie and Elenor included. Always find the ending of Return of the King somewhat sad. The LOR films are quite good (despite missing out Tom and Goldberry) but not a patch on the books. (The less said about The Hobbit films the better).

I listened to a study on LOTR years ago. It suggested that the true hero wasn’t Frodo but Sam. Sam who was the loyal servant. Sam, who stayed by Frodo’s side, who understood where Frodo went at the falls. The Sam who conquered Shelob. Sam, who was ring bearer for a short time but it did not overpower his mind. Sam, who stood behind Frodo but allowed him to be the hero. Sam was blessed in the end.

@nickscott6139

3 ай бұрын

I think you are correct. Tolkien saw Sam as one of the soldiers of the First World War. An unsung hero.

@rhonda6791

3 ай бұрын

Sam was the unselfish brave true hero. Frodo could never have done it without Sam.

@KnugLidi

3 ай бұрын

Sam is the only one to wear the ring but never claim it as his own. He was also strong enough to wear it but willingly surrender it to another, like Bilbo.

@user-id2gd7yv2d

3 ай бұрын

Yes. Samwise the Brave!

@danielatasak5486

3 ай бұрын

I agree

"well, I'm back" is such a beautiful understatement after the long epic, I've always loved it. It's pure hobbit.

@FreejackVesa

4 ай бұрын

I always interpreted it as Rosie (and assumedly other hobbit loved ones) didn't particularly like the unusual Hobbit behavior that the Baggins clan were known for. So him saying "I'm back" is reassurances that his un-hobbit-like adventure is over and he is safely home. I like to imagine that Rose was supportive of Sam's adventures, but didn't particularly like or understand the need. Rose seemed to know that Sam would indeed return from the ring quest when many other Hobbits assumed them dead (probably fell off a boat and drowned). Taking that a little further, his return from the Grey Havens was probably a relief because there was particularly large amounts of water and particularly large boats, Elven boats even - which I'm sure most hobbits are distrustful of, in especial. These are just my thoughts and opinions, I'm sure it could be interpreted in other ways.

@12classics39

3 ай бұрын

@@FreejackVesa what fascinates me about Rosie is actually how little we know about her. Aside from her understandable hurt that the love of her life suddenly ran off when she thought they were going to get married sooner, we don’t really know her thoughts and feelings about his reason for going, about the Quest, about Frodo. If you read LOTR fanfiction, there is a wide variety of interpretations of her, from resenting Frodo to caring for him like one of the family, from refusing to listen to Sam’s account of what happened to understanding and appreciating what he did. Tolkien leaves so many of her most important qualities for us to decide. I personally feel that Sam would not want to marry someone who was completely dismissive of what he went through, and more importantly, who would disrespect Frodo. There are 5 bits of proof in the text that there was a friendship between Frodo and Rosie, with some level of understanding, IMO: 1) During the Scouring of the Shire, Rosie insisted that Sam return to Frodo’s side. This shows she understood that Frodo was important to Sam, and was respectful of their loyalty to each other. 2) Rosie agreed to move into Bag End with both Sam and Frodo. There’s no indication that she was ever uncomfortable with this or insisted she and her husband not have a third person in their home. Sharing a residence like that must have allowed for some bonding between her and Frodo, as well. 3) It is written that there “was not a hobbit in the Shire who was looked after with such care” as Frodo was cared for in Bag End. This could be simply a result of Sam’s care, but it’s more likely that the care was provided by both Sam and Rosie, especially since Frodo was often ill and in societies like the Shire it was usually up to the women to nurse the sick, especially in their own home. 4) Rosie accepted the name Elanor for her firstborn child, which was decided not by her or her husband, but by Frodo. Since Sam went to Frodo asking for help with thinking of a name, there’s a high chance it was Rosie’s idea that Sam ask if Frodo had any ideas. That shows an incredible amount of respect and acceptance toward Frodo, for her to let him name her own child. 5) She and Sam named their first son after Frodo. The meaning of that goes without saying. It just doesn’t feel in character for Sam to marry a woman who hated Frodo and refused to be kind to him. And I think anyone who did not like or understand the need for Sam to go away would resent Frodo like this. I feel like Sam must have told Rosie the whole story, and the extent of Frodo’s obvious wounds as well as the incredible importance of their quest must have registered with Rosie. The fact that Frodo and Sam briefly lived with the Cottons after returning, and Frodo was writing his book, and was briefly ill during his stay there, means there’s a chance Rosie noticed his wounds, and maybe even read some of his writings out of curiosity as to what happened. Either way, I think it’s most likely that Rosie did understand.

@12classics39

3 ай бұрын

@@FreejackVesa Sam was so utterly changed and traumatized by what he went through that I highly doubt his marriage to Rosie could've been as successful as it was if she didn't understand what happened to him, at least to some extent. There's also a lot of proof that she was fond of Frodo. It is said there wasn't a hobbit in the Shire looked after with as much care as Frodo was given after Sam and Rosie moved into Bag End; it's most likely the care was provided by both of them, especially since Frodo was often ill in their house. Seeing how sick Frodo was must have caused Rosie to understand on some level that he and Sam went through something terrible. Also, she and Sam are said to have been close since childhood, so I feel like she would want to understand and know about an event that affected him so deeply. The fact that her eyes were described as “shining” when Frodo briefly mentioned Sam’s fame in Gondor indicates she was very interested in learning what happened. Plus she let Frodo name Elanor, and then named her first son after Frodo. One could argue "the Shire patriarchy meant she had to name her kids whatever Sam wanted them to be named," but there isn’t much proof that the Shire is actually like that, and even so, Sam definitely isn't like that. He's just not the type to be a controlling, oppressing husband; it’s against his very nature. He must’ve let Rosie have a say in things, and ensure she agreed with those names for the children who were hers, as much as they were his. And she must’ve understood his bond with Frodo and what they went through, and cared for Frodo in her own way, since she did agree. She even sought Frodo's own ideas of what to name her firstborn; that to me hints that she and Frodo became real friends. I think Sam says "Well, I'm back" as a somber acknowledgment that he has returned without Frodo, as he's still in shock that Frodo is gone, and needs time to process it, and Rosie offers him compassion and comfort by helping him sit down and putting their daughter in his lap, reminding him of what he still has, despite his loss.

@FreejackVesa

3 ай бұрын

@@12classics39 respectfully, I think some of your conclusions are transposing some of our cultural mores to Hobbit/Shire culture. I personally dont think there is really any evidence in any of Tolkien's work that suggest that "Shire patriarchy meant she had to name her kid whatever Sam wanted them to be named". It is noted in the text that it is Hobbit tradition to name girls after flowers. I don't really think we have enough information on Rosie's character and the relationship between Sam and Rosie to interpret in depth. I do agree that Rosie understood the bond between Frodo and Sam. Considering the time period that Tolkien lived, English rural tradition, and the text of LoTR, Silmarillion, the Hobbit, and "Tolkeins Letters", the relationship between Sam and Frodo is both one of deep friendship but also a relationship, at least originally, defined by their class status. The Bagginses, especially Bilbo and Frodo, were considered wealthy "country gentleman" amongst Hobbits. That is why Sam would always refer to Frodo as "Mr. Frodo" and "sir" - Sam was in many ways a servant/footman to Frodo. He was his employee as well, tending to his garden. In fact, Sam's father "Gaffer" Hamfast Gamgee was employed by Bilbo as a gardener/caretaker, so the Gamgees service to the Bagginses was a generational position. This is much like how wealth English landowners of the past had "servants" which would often pass from parent to child. To our modern sensibilities this seems archaic, and it is to a certain degree, but also one might consider that the position of a caretaker or servant meant living a life of relative ease and "luxury" compared to the alternative, which would be something like a laborer who had no ownership of land themselves. All that being said, my personal opinion is that Rosie also thought similar to this - viewing Frodo as a kind, wealthy gentle-hobbit from a distinguished family and being very well educated for a Hobbit. I do appreciate your perspective though, even though I may disagree on some details!

@Mangolorian-je3eo

3 ай бұрын

Somehow, Sam returned.

I wish Tolkien would have written a looooooooong epilogue telling the lives of everyone in details because I don't want it to end.

I think ending it with Sam’s domestic bliss but the slight bittersweet note of the call of the sea would have been absolutely perfect.

@RonJohn63

5 ай бұрын

No. The people who disagreed with Tolkien were right: "everything was put back as it should be" is the proper ending for an Epic. Putting Sam's later life in an appendix enhances the fiction that the Red Book of Westmarch is real history.

@DragonsAndDragons777

5 ай бұрын

No.

@tedtheman

5 ай бұрын

@@RonJohn63yeah it is real history LOL

@earlofdoncaster5018

4 ай бұрын

The ending of LotR is bitter with a slight aftertaste of sweet. I'm guessing the detractors of the epilogue thought including it would render it rather mawkish.

@steampunkpixie2643

4 ай бұрын

I agree it would have rounded the story nicely.

I always wanted to name my daughter Elanor when I read the books as a teen. So my 1stborn is Eleanor (spelled different) and my 2nd is Samantha (Sam) so now I feel like I have my kids named after LOTR characters ☺️

@henrywasserman

5 ай бұрын

Carry on

@elessartelcontar9415

4 ай бұрын

My oldest daughter is named Lorien Galadriel! She's 44 years old. I picked her name out when I was a 13 year old boy. She asked about her name and I told her that her first name was the most beautiful place and that her second name was the best person. I read her several poems from LOTR about Lorien and Galadriel.

@XL-5117

4 ай бұрын

That is perfect 😍

@lizardbreathh

4 ай бұрын

@@elessartelcontar9415 that is so beautiful!! I love that!!

@colinratcliffe3074

4 ай бұрын

My 2 dogs are Pippin and Eowyn

Yes, I regret that Tolkien was bullied into not including it. His instincts were solid throughout, and he should have been allowed to follow them all the way to the end. Thanks for sharing this ending, which I did not know existed.

@RoseBaggins

4 ай бұрын

I agree. It was a beautiful epilogue!! I do like the current one, but I think it should have been done like the Hobbit, there are two versions of Return of the King so people can get their favorite epilogue ... I would get both myself, lol.

@magdahearne497

4 ай бұрын

Absolutely, I do believe the inner circle were just a bunch of philistines. They robbed us all of something unique, I think.

@FreejackVesa

4 ай бұрын

I think "bullied" is assuming a lot. He asked his peers for their opinions, he took their advice, but later regretted it. That's not bullying

@charlesjames1442

3 ай бұрын

Hmmm. I don’t believe so. I think he listened to the polite criticism, thought about it and then agreed. He doesn’t strike me as one that could be pushed into something he didn’t want.

@unncommonsense

3 ай бұрын

I think he made the ending of his own volition, not being bullied or allowed. He may have second guessed it. I wouldn't switch a word of a masterpiece.

If the Epilogue had been included from the beginning we would all have loved it and it wouldn't have destroyed anything. And if someone had said to us now, no let's take it out it has no place in the ending we'd all have thought that person lost their marbles.

@panikk2

3 ай бұрын

1000 percent. This happens with all kinds of media.

The call of the sea...he was briefly the ring bearer, he had a place across the sea. I imagine him finally reuniting with Frodo.

@napoleonfeanor

5 ай бұрын

I think maybe even Bilbo as aging doesn't happen normally over there. A final réunion and some time spent together before the Hobbits eventually go the way of Men (to which Hobbits belong as far as souls are concerned). It normally feels more likely that Bilbo already passed even over there but it's just my headcanon

@carlfromtheoc1788

4 ай бұрын

I think in the appendices and other writings Sam eventually sails into the West to the Undying Lands, as did Legolas and Gimli (who as elf-friend was allowed to also sail into the West. Eventually when the last elves chose to leave middle Earth, Cirdan the Shipwright went with them.

@EvanACMedia

4 ай бұрын

Unfortunately sailing into the West is simply the acceptance of death for mortals. The Undying Lands are not undying because of the lands, but because of those who inhabit them. In fact, mortals that travel to these lands often age faster than in the east. It’s likely that Frodo did not live more than a few months after his crossing.

@12classics39

4 ай бұрын

I feel like Tolkien was implying that, when he decided to have Sam sail from the Havens in old age and wrote it that way. Tolkien clearly wanted to have all loose ends wrapped up, and thus I highly doubt that he intended for Sam to sail West and find nothing but a gravestone waiting for him. He would never give a character that meant so much to him such a bleak ending. Without spelling it out, he’s telling us with a sort of “wink-wink” that Frodo lived long enough in the West to greet Sam and they saw each other again.

@JohnDavies-cn3ro

4 ай бұрын

This is just my idea - Sam hears the sound of the sea; it's letting him know that one day, he too will 'go west' into whatever eternity awaits faithful hobbits.

I'm 78,and have been reading the Lord of the Rings since I started high school. At university, I participated in groups reading LOTR and squabbling over the pronunciation of Elvish and of the names of the characters. Great fun!. I loved the movies, too. I like the ending as is, but I sure would enjoy Tolkien's preferred ending., too! LOTR has had such a huge influence on my life to this day.

@vissersvet

2 ай бұрын

That's sweet and strangely soothing to read. The past couple of years, I (going on to be 62) have found support and consolation in Tolkien's awe-(and love)-inspiring creation, which I had enjoyed when I was sixteen, seventeen (reading TH and TLotR), and then had moved past of. But then I finally got down to read *The Silmarillion* (bought some forty years earlier), and I got to rewatch Peter Jackson's trilogy quite a couple of times in the past few years, and, well... I think I could call myself a well-read person (being thankful that my scope is not primarily anglosaxon (at all -- 80% of what I read is not. Magnificent things have come out of Britain and Ireland and North America (and India and Australia aso), but beyond that there's a LOT more to be found out there still) and that I was able to master five languages) -- and I don't think TLotR is the best novel ever written. Still, I will say the whole of Tolkien's lore and mythology and fairytales and stories and poetry and epic is something I have come to love deeply. I remember our professor of English literature (a T.S. Eliot and W.H. Auden scholar) at university in the eighties being more than a trifle condescending about the work of his late colleague. I have come to think he was wrong there. Not least because of Robert's videos here, I have got the sense that Tolkien is a lot profounder than I thought at the time. So, not the best writer ever. But still an admirable, very enjoyable and pretty darn good one -- even wise, sort of, even if I am not, as he was in a way, stuck in the vision of nineteenth century English countryside life as the epitome of human bliss on this Earth. (And I neither would have minded TLotR ending with the excluded epilogue, at all.)

@joerosenman3480

2 ай бұрын

@@vissersvet You didn’t include a few pieces of critical information! First and foremost, what (in your opinion) IS the best novel ever written? Not that you’re right-or wrong-but I’m sure the answer will be interesting. That said, I’ve found perspective is generally a creation of context and experience. As you’re not from one of the native English speaking countries (right?) might I ask what your native country and language is? Certainly not to criticize you in any way! I ask to better understand your perspective and your version of inherent biases (we all have them-Americans have their versions, British have theirs, Aussies have theirs, and so on (now the Canadians are gonna be mad at me!)). I’m actually envious of your mastery of five languages! I know English extremely well but have had great difficulty learning other languages. Not for want of trying. Perhaps because that “space” was used in the study of music and computer languages but that’s just speculation.

@LKMNOP

Ай бұрын

I love the books. I have the books, in hardback including the anniversary edition. But the movies were at travesty. Don't understand how anyone who liked the books could like the movies

@joerosenman3480

Ай бұрын

@@LKMNOP I feel the same way about the Hobbit movies. But I thought the LOTR treatment was quite decent. I objected to the omissions, and had some different opinions than Jackson about this or that but on the whole I thought it was a respectable interpretation-and that’s all a movie is, an interpretation-of the true story, Tolkien’s words. But as with all things in life, opinions will vary-and that’s fine. I’m baffled by people who start to read LOTR then put it aside saying it is “too wordy” or “boring” but there too, people have to have the right to feel as they do. [of course, in this case they are just wrong but I’m not gonna tell them that! 😂]

@richwalker1965

Ай бұрын

@@LKMNOP mostly it was the dialogue that ruined the movies for me - it was so jarringly modern and cliched that it ruined the sense of immersion that I needed to allow me to allow for the [arguably necessary] changes to the narrative. Though the Grey Company will never not fill me with horror.

Writers - and, perhaps more importantly, editors - often say that one of the most important principles of good writing is to avoid explaining, or even showing, too much. I once heard a renowned storyteller, who was taking questions from an audience, address one that asked how he constructed such a rich, vivid, lifelike world with his words. He responded that a crucial principle, one that he constantly reminded himself of, was that no words of his, no matter how detailed or artful, could ever hope to create a world so lifelike and rich as the one his listeners’ or readers’ imaginations could create in their heads. In other words, he needed to remember that there was always a point at which his best tactic was to hold his tongue, and get out of the way of his audience’s own work in filling out, in rendering whole and real, the world that he had suggested. So, it could be that here Tolkien heeded the advice of friends and colleagues, that the more evocative ending would be one in which he did not tell everything that was in his head, about his characters’ destinies, but left his readers to imagine what was to be with all of them.

@johnsrabe

4 ай бұрын

Absolutely. As an editor of mine once said, “Always leave them hungry for more.”

@theoriginalkyttyn7724

3 ай бұрын

Yes. I most definitely agree with this.

@joerosenman3480

2 ай бұрын

Editing is certainly a critical part of writing. But let’s extend your premise just a little bit. What if the Epilogue was included. What, then, happened with the North kingdom at Fornost? Who knows. When did Círdan finally sail into the West? Dunno. As men proliferated did Hobbits still go to Bree? Who can say? What happened to Orthanc? Ask Aragorn! In other words there are so many unanswered questions one can think of-those are just off the top of my head. Sam was our ambassador on the journey so bringing closure to *his* story (and only his) has special significance and satisfaction even if the reader doesn’t quite know why. It is, of course, because the reader unknowingly identified with Sam. This was by design, albeit subtle and with a light touch. That’s why we didn’t grieve Frodo’s loss of the Shire, we grieved Sam’s loss of Frodo! The epilogue showed Sam healed of his loss… ending with a note of the wild unknown. How Tolkien!

@johnsrabe

2 ай бұрын

@@joerosenman3480 Perceptive and well said. What is amazing to me is that this was only Tolkein’s second novel and a - to me - astounding improvement over the first. The Hobbit is fun but not deep and way too long. I know how much longer LOTR took to create, but lots if people take a long time to write a BAD book. LOTR’s characters, depth, construction, and complexity have us talking about it still.

I will never understand the collective renouncement of that sweet little epilogue by Tolkien’s peers. To call it “harmless” would do it injustice; it sounds sweet, and a beautiful, everyday life-filled ending to a tale of love, written with love.

@FreejackVesa

4 ай бұрын

I believe his peers were mostly his own children and publisher.

@rushnafwadud

4 ай бұрын

@@FreejackVesa C.S. Lewis would disagree, along with a clutch of other writers of offshoot genres

@FreejackVesa

4 ай бұрын

@@rushnafwadud I didn't say all. And the hobbit and lord of the rings started out as stories he told his children. Tom Bombadil was based on one of his kids dolls. And then he would continue to send new writings to his kids for feedback, even as they were stationed overseas during the war. Yes, his editor and the Inklings provided input - but his work had always been closely tied to his children. I'm not saying that they were for sure the ones that were against the epilogue, they were integral to the story of how these books were written though.

@rushnafwadud

4 ай бұрын

@@FreejackVesa I totally see your point now. That’s a very fair assessment. Pleasure

@rushnafwadud

4 ай бұрын

@@FreejackVesa to reassess though, I hope you understand the “peers” I’m concerned about.

I get the feeling the whole epilogue about Sam and his family sound like Tolkien himself He entrusts his offspring with his writings, just like sam with his daughter, and after all the adventures Sam and Tolkien had they were happy to be back in home and hearth

Would Sam's daughter have increased the number of speaking female characters by 30%?

I didn't mind "The Grey Havens" as I originally read it. Although, I have to admit, I didn't appreciate it so much until I got a bit older. In retrospect, it seems like a good end to a story. The ones you love so much leave us, but life and new things go on. New loves, of both friend and family, come along and are worthy of our immediate attention; just like old loved friends and family did before. We remember what was and hopefully recognize what is. And if we're really lucky, maybe we see it all again someplace where it never ends again.

@newalbion150

5 ай бұрын

That was beautifully put

@curtisweber5257

5 ай бұрын

I'm always baffled that nobody bothers to tell the Ents of the Mirkwoodsl that there are Ents just outside the Shire.

@sushanart

4 ай бұрын

❤️👍

@thomasblanchard6778

4 ай бұрын

I have always accepted that the Grey Havens was where the Third Age of Middle Earth, along with all the Little Peoples, went to sail away, to "a far green country under a swift sunrise", to die to their lifetime's world, leaving the new Fourth Age to Men, the mortals.

@curtisweber5257

4 ай бұрын

@@thomasblanchard6778 through the ages the longevity of every race seems to wane to a shorter life span. The early humans lived a few centuries as could Hobbits and dwarves to almost an eon at 800 yrs old, after the destruction of the simarils the elf's too showed signs that they had lost their own ageless qualities.

I totally agree that the epilogue should be thought of as canon but works better as an afterthought rather than a part of the main story. It deepens the perfect “I’m back” ending that we do have. My favorite detail in the epilogue is how Sam seems to have special psychic/intuitive connections with both Rosie and Frodo. On the very day that Frodo and Sam’s quest was achieved, Rosie could somehow feel that Sam was going to come home. And even with a whole Sea between them, Sam still can sense something that reminds him of Frodo, even at the warmth of his doorstep. Very beautiful. But there will never be a more perfect, more simultaneously heartwarming and heartbreaking closing line in the history of literature than “Well, I’m back.”

@LKMNOP

Ай бұрын

For me the call of the sea wasn't the call of Frodo but the same call of the seed that Frodo felt due to his bearing the ring. Since Sam had bored the ring he would feel that same call to the sea.

Further proof that Tolkien identified most of all with Sam. He called himself a Hobbit at heart, and reverently (and incessantly) spoke about his love of gardening, plants and trees. Here Tolkien is the one reading from the enormous book and answering all their questions about what happened to everybody. He split off part of this epilogue and tacked it onto LOTR as the Scouring of the Shire, perhaps to show how great evil is reduced from its power to living the lives of wicked men. Tolkien intended to return all of these devolved characters (frex, Saruman as Salty the shady drug addicted Realtor) to their old pinnacles of power for one final story culminating in an apocalyptic battle called the Dagor Dagorath. The opening of this final trilogy was to be called The New Shadow. Presumably Morgoth (Melkor) is freed from his "chains" as Old Man Willow and returns to his northern haunts (this time in underground Angband, beneath the mountains of Thangorodrim ), gathering all of the old gang to his side including dragons, spiders, giants, balrogs. Tolkien wrote a letter explaining that the Legendarium called the Silmarillion was to end with a well-developed vision of the Dagor Dagorath, but he removed this addendum, and it is lost to us. This caused his son Christopher to aggregate all of the various mentions of Dagor Dagorath and publish this collective in The History of Middle Earth series. All great stories are told in the form of a trilogy: introduce the protagonists and antagonists and their conflict in Act One, develop them and their stories in Act Two, resolve their conflicts in Act Three. Great Epos' sometimes have each of the three individual trilogies divided into trilogies themselves for a nine-story Epic. The Epilogue to LOTR was to serve as a bridge, serving as an epilogue to Act Two and a prologue to Act Three. Tolkien just ran out of steam. He really needs the Tolkien Estate to manifest Act Three on his behalf. The New Shadow would be the first story of that final trilogy, introducing the surviving antagonists from the previous stories and the protagonist: Eldarion, son of Aragorn II Elessar and Arwen Evenstar, became King of the Reunited Kingdom in F.A. The War of Wrath takes 50 years and utterly destroys Morgoth and most of his forces. For Tolken, this is WW1 and WW2, and the rise of modern technology represented a resurgence of Numenor. In a 1972 letter Tolkien mentioned that Eldarion's reign would have lasted for about 100 years after the death of Aragorn. So we have to see Tolkien's view of the world: before WW1 it was still largely pastoral and thus, magical, and he was traumatized by the radically fast industrialization. If we delve into his life when he was a member of the Inklings growing their garden of magical drug-producing plants (because that's exactly what they did), he must have felt like he was touching on something ancient that was waning away. His friends in the Inklings were mostly authors such as CS Lewis, who wrote about the waning of the old magic with the same sense of loss. It's not a coincidence that their conversations from these inebriated moments turned into these wonderful homages to the mythical days of lore and yore, with a warning that the old evils were still among us, and would return one day for a final battle, for Tolkien - WW2, but if he only knew how bad it would get in the future! Lastly, I forget the name, but there is one protagonist who takes on Morgoth in Act Three. He was a quiet member of Act One which is introduced in the Silmarillion, but he is completely invisible in Act Two. He must be reincarnated as Aragorn or some other great figure whom Tolkien was going to re-introduce to us in context of his involvement over all phases of this Epic. We just don't know! I can't remember if it's Tulkus or some other character, but it's nobody you ever noticed at any point at all, and yet for Tolkien, this guy is at the center of the entire conflict and returns as himself at the very end to wrap everything up. This kind of incomplete world building drives completionists nuts! WE HAVE TO KNOW, and yet without a great deal of fan ret-conning, we will forever be hanging on a thread, without any absolute knowledge of who our true hero was at various stages of the Epic.

I think that, if Tolkien had published this epilogue, then he would have wanted to write a story about how Eleanor passed the book on to the next person. So, one hast to end a book somewhere.

I completely agree that the ending to the main series was what it needed to be. But I dunno, something the distant sound of the ocean calling Sam really hit different. I go inland for a week and already my brain is like "but where's the water..?"

@eljanrimsa5843

5 ай бұрын

Whatever ending Tolkien comes up with creates new angles to explore and new questions to answer. With his writing style, no story stops completely, it goes on like water gathering for a while then finding a new way.

@cdr-sailor

4 ай бұрын

When I went to Boulder, Colorado in the 1980s, I walked out of my hotel and saw the Rockies to my right. Said, "Nice mountains, but it needs an ocean." My three older cousins, with whom I had grown up, all joined the Air Force in the late 1960s and 70s. Hearing the call of the ocean, I joined the Navy. 50 years later, I sail on Tampa Bay and hope to make the crossing to the Bahamas.

@EvanACMedia

4 ай бұрын

I love how the sound of the ocean calling is a universal signal to accept your death (or end of time if immortal) in the East, and sail West.

@12classics39

4 ай бұрын

@@EvanACMedia not death, more like the end of one chapter of your life and the beginning of another.

The story of Aragorn and Arwen ending is included in the appendices and it has dialogue and everything. I think they could've added that chapter as an appendix as well.

I would have deeply appreciated the option of reading this epilog. For all too often we have these stories where extraordinary people leave ordinary lives to do extraordinary things, and then return to their ordinary lives. All too often these characters are portrayed as having difficulty adjusting, or not being able to adjust at all to their former lives. Sam, although forever changed by his experiences, does find a new equilibrium and leads an ordinary life with extraordinary character. it is an example of the successful hero returning to lead a productive life and not becoming a burden upon those who love him. It is a story all too often not told, and one that was tragically missing from the post-World war II narratives of the men who survived but were marred and scarred for life. Perhaps this is the reason Tolkien's circle of friends and advisors did not want this epilog included in the main story. The tale of what comes after the adventure is often bitter-sweet. It is, however, a part of the tale, and one all too often not told.

I like that the epilogue was published by Tolkiens son among the letters and other works. you never want to drag on the story and have it, as Bilbo would say, Like butter scrapped over to much bread.. The ending was perfect.

@JG-kq5el

5 ай бұрын

Scraped*

@EbonKim

5 ай бұрын

S-capped

@SteveJubs

5 ай бұрын

Scorped*

@belladonnatook8851

4 ай бұрын

Oh, for pity's sake! Stop it.

@SteveJubs

4 ай бұрын

Scuppled*

No way I was busy watching The Fellowship of the Ring and then I see this notification I absolutely love LoTR, and I love it even more thanks to videos like this!

I'm a sucker for long drawn out endings. I can probably handle another after this new old one. This inquisitive elf-touched daughter of The Gardner seems to me the perfect person to find a definitive answer to what happened to the Entwives.

@rhusradicans2122

2 ай бұрын

Hi @exharkhun5605. I always wondered why Pippin and Merry didn't wonder (& suggest to Treebeard) whether the trees that 'come alive' in the forest in Buckland were the lost Entwives. They were lost to a land where they tilled the earth, I think (?), which sounds very Shire-like to me.

@exharkhun5605

2 ай бұрын

@@rhusradicans2122 I know, it seems so obvious. Especially since Merry and Pippin have already travelled through so many types of true wilderness that the contrast should be obvious to them. I've made that connection with the Shire myself when I was young. It may have been the first thing I ever worked out on my own and it turned out to be a dud. 😁 I seem to remember from one of the many great Tolkien lore channels I follow that the probable place of the Entwives' cultivated lands were what's now called the Brown Lands, just above the Dead Marshes. These lands were destroyed by Sauron in one of the many wars. I think the channel in question implied that the Entwives were all killed back then. My personal thought is that the Brown Lands border the Anduin River and the original Hobbits lived between the Misty Mountains and the Anduin. A few of the Entwives may have gone the same way, maybe via Lorien or first up into Greenwood the Great (Mirkwood) and ending up in or near the Shire eventually.

@rhusradicans2122

2 ай бұрын

@@exharkhun5605 Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Regardless of where they ended up, they were lost - and so no more Entings. So sad!

I’m happy to be part of a community that wonders. I like this video installment. Lucky for us so much of Tolkien’s writings and papers have been published.

@brandonmunsen6035

5 ай бұрын

This is unpublished works.... smh

@MagusMarquillin

5 ай бұрын

@@brandonmunsen6035 ...which was later published...by his son 🤨

@kyfarm

4 ай бұрын

@@MagusMarquillin So many people have a mean nature. I was a little surprised to see it here, though. (Not you, it is sometimes hard to tell from just the written word in a forum like this)

I wish the epilogue would have been included 😢. I always felt like the ending chapter (The Grey Havens) was a bit incomplete! Thank you for this video In Deep Geek. Yours sincerely, Nate.

I would have preferred it be present in the main book, if for no other reason because Professor Tolkien apparently wanted it read that way, until the pressure from others was too great and he was compelled to change it.

@tsm688

2 ай бұрын

remember the book was basically an essay on fictional languages until a few good editors talked to him. Not all editing is bad.

"One must end somewhere, I suppose." Agreed, although when I finished the last of the trilogy I really did not want it to end. 🤔 Anyway, many thanks because I didn't know about the epilogue. Merry Christmas! 🎅

@joepugh678

2 ай бұрын

Lord of the Rings shall never "end," so long as there are fans who continue the fight for beauty and against evil.

I wish he'd ignored the nay-sayers and included this. It's a perfect ending to the tale.

I'm grateful you shared the epilogue with us, and I regret it wasn't included as part of the appendix. At least, I find that it fulfills a longing in my heart to get a taste of Sam's history afterward. The indication of a psychic or spiritual link between Sam and his dear Rosie is meaningful, as is the resolution of Sam's yearning for Elves in his own enchanting daughter. No less meaningful is the call of the Sea, and the promise that he will see his beloved Frodo again. I am happy to know these resolutions.

@tsm688

2 ай бұрын

the only detail that **wasn't** in the appendix was Sam giving the book to Elanor.

When it comes to LOTR and other great works, I always want more. It is not a logical want. Too much can spoil a story - but i still want.

@goldilocks913

4 ай бұрын

I wants precious, l wants! I’m the same 😢

@goldilocks913

4 ай бұрын

I wants precious, l wants! I’m the same 😢

All good stories have a beginning and an end. While a good writer knows what happens before the beginning and after the end, that good writer knows to not include those things in the main story, but leave it for an extra for the few who want it.

@KeplersDream

5 ай бұрын

I've heard it said it's like being invited to a party - arrive late, leave early.

@romankotas448

4 ай бұрын

And a whole goddamn appendices, and the Silmarillion, and the fall of Gondolin…ect ect

@magnuszerum9177

4 ай бұрын

@@romankotas448 Exactly. Lot's of extras for those that want them.

Thank you for your efforts Robert.

For me, the real ending to the book is Frodo's beautiful blessing and prophecy over Sam on their way to the Grey Havens. "Do not be too sad, Sam. You cannot be always torn in two. You will have to be one and whole, for many years. You have so much to enjoy and to be, and to do....But you are my heir: all that I had and might have had I leave to you. And also you have Rose, and Elanor; and Frodo-lad will come, and Rosie-lass, and Merry, and Goldilocks, and Pippin; and perhaps more that I cannot see. Your hands and your wits will be needed everywhere. You will be the Mayor, of course, as long as you want to be, and the most famous gardener in history; and you will read things out of the Red Book, and keep alive the memory of the age that is gone, so that people will remember the Great Danger and so love their beloved land all the more. And that will keep you as busy and as happy as anyone can be, as long as your part of the Story goes on."

@12classics39

3 ай бұрын

Whether you ship Frodo and Sam or not (and of course you don’t have to), this whole speech of Frodo’s reminds me so much of Jack’s dying speech in Titanic as he encourages Rose to live a full life without him, including having children with someone else. Two emotionally powerful scenes, if nothing else.

The story as we have it ends on a carefully composed blend of melancholy and contentment. We couldn't have had that with the epilogue included, so I think it was right to leave it out, and leave the discoveries about Sam's future (along with the others') to the appendices.

“Well, I’m back.” Never felt finished to me. Always feels like an anticlimactic kick in the stomach, a sudden discarding of a world and dear friends. Like when you learn of the unexpected death of a loved one. Hard to breathe. Every time I read LOTR, I have a period of mourning when finished, not a joy of completion. The epilogue would have been MUCH appreciated. Thank you for this video, this heals many teenage wounds. ❤

@adorp

Ай бұрын

The "I'm back" is supposed to bring the reader back to the real world... It is like the breaking of a fantastic dream.

You do great work. I thoroughly enjoy your videos.

I think the published ending is just fine, and this addition would be better in its own short story.

I love the "unrest" still chasing Sam down to the last line.

@12classics39

4 ай бұрын

Indeed. The epilogue makes it more obvious, but it’s captured in “Well, I’m back,” if you look at it in a certain way. He doesn’t sound completely happy to be back. There is happiness, of course, but also bittersweetness. A part of him went over the Sea with Frodo.

I love this extra bit, its so nice to have more of a great masterpiece

The appendices feels right to me. I love the confirmation that due to his part, the sea calls to Sam, just as it did to those before him.

@12classics39

3 ай бұрын

It also reaffirms the power of his connection with Frodo, as he is drawn back to Frodo.

I would have loved to have this epilogue included in the appendices section of the Return of the King!

I think it ended where it should have. Tolkien's imagination was so powerful, I can see why he'd want to keep going, especially when one realizes how much Tolkien loved Sam. I think the Epilogue is just Tolkien's way of saying, "and they lived happily ever after."

I love this epilogue, which I was previously unaware of, but I, like you, think the ending should stand as published. In passing, I would say that the images you use from the Peter Jackson production reminded me of my disappointment that he chose not to include "The Scouring of the Shire", no matter how good his reasons were for doing so. Tolkien's work was as close to perfection as any human endeavour can be, and should remain unaltered.

Couldn't agree more, Robert. It's wonderful that we get this glimpse, but also great that we get to keep the ending as it is, with all the elegance and weight of the story packed into three little words from our hero, Sam.

I'm happy how it actually turned out, wherein we, the readers of Tolkien, got both the ending and the epilogue. And the appendices ofcourse. It's nice to have an ending after the ending. When the credits rolls it's kind of a treat to peel back the curtain and see one last glimpse. To actually know what finally happened to all the characters, an ending for the characters, not just the tale itself.

@Cosper79

5 ай бұрын

I do like the epilogue, how it hints that Elanor will carry on a family love for elves like Sam but also a glimpse that Sam will eventually go to the sea.

@12classics39

3 ай бұрын

@@Cosper79 such emphasis is put on the importance of geneology and heritage in shaping a hobbit’s character (Bilbo and Frodo sought adventure because of their Took roots, for example) that I often wonder about Sam’s heritage. He is not related to the Tooks, and his father clearly has no urge to meet Elves, but we are given zero information about his mother, except her name, Bell Goodchild. Perhaps she once met Elves passing through the Shire but kept it secret since she thought nobody would believe her, and that connection with Elves passed on to her son and granddaughter.

I think the ending we have, with Sam's “Well, I am back”, is perfect. However, an epilogue isn't really a new ending, it's an afterword or supplement, of what happened after a book ends, not the end in itself. I would have been quite happy if Tolkien had included it in the published version myself, bearing that in mind

I definitely wouldn't mind having it included, maybe as a addendum in full, because when I finished the last chapter, I didn't want to leave middle earth just yet, and I feel Tolkien didn't either. Maybe Sams daughter would've embarked on her own quest to seek out some remnants of elves and expanded the story of the red book with her story as well.

@disgruntledtoons

5 ай бұрын

According to the appendices, Sam handed over the Red Book to his daughter before departing (as family tradition held) for the Havens. She was formally a member of the royal court of Aragorn, so she (or her descendants) would have been able to know about the passing of Merry, Pippin, and other members of the Fellowship.

A main theme of Tolkien is that every story is but a part of a greater story so in that sense every ending would've felt incomplete because "The Story" is still going on. But I feel that this was the right decision, as Frodo leaving for Valinor marks the end of the story of the War of the Ring and his (and in a sense Sam's) journey as a protagonist. Knowing that (for example) Gimli and Legolas left Middle Earth together is nice but it doesn't add anything thematically or to their characters

This video is most welcome because it made me realize I actually have this epilogue (which I didn't know existed) in one of the two HoME books I have thrifted, and wonderful timing, I can insert it in when I finally reread the whole story next year. This is so exciting - even though it's a few pages, it feels as if JRRT came back with an entire sequel to read! Happy Yule! _Only hitch is there's two separate versions of it. I'll have to figure out which one counts like much of the unfinished tales._

@eljanrimsa5843

5 ай бұрын

Keep the second version for the next time you reread it.

@MagusMarquillin

5 ай бұрын

@@eljanrimsa5843 Thanks - it stands to reason that it'd be more refined as he aimed for publishing. I'll read that one as the capstone - but naturally I'll read the other before long also, and I expect there will be things I like about it that aren't in the second, which schisms the story in a way, like the story of Saruman dealing with the Ringwraiths. Pardon this nit picking, it's still great we can read these at all.

In Tolkien's own foreword to the second edition of LotR, he notes that 'the book is too short.' I wonder if this was a reference to the excluded epilogue? In my view the ending as it stands is fine. It concludes Sam's journey in the War of the Ring; anything else would be another story. The saying "Always leave them wanting more" comes to mind. As always, Robert, thank-you for your hard work in making these videos and sharing your knowledge and insight with your viewers. I look forward to the next one, but in the meantime I wish you and yours a wonderful Christmas and a Happy New Year!

In the Elanor epilogue, Tolkien is in his inimitable way, expressing the joy, wonder and love of parenthood and parenting. That's a theme that isn't a large part of LOTR. So, much as I like the chapter, I think IDG is right. Better that LOTR ends as it does and that those who are interested can discover it later; perhaps when they have themselves experienced parenthood. So a big thank you to IDG for letting me know about the Elanor epilogue.

Thank you.I always thought he left Sam and the Shire very abruptly. Now I see that he didn't.

Part of the magic of these books is that many things are hinted at, but never quite realised. That laconic "I am back" is quite perfect IMHO. Well, I am a person, who tends to struggle with that lengthy prologue, "Concerning Hobbits".

I have read this epilogue and felt everything nicely tied up in the end. Loved the story especially because of the epilogue.

I should very much like to have had this epilogue included. Learning about it today, I grieve that it shouldn't be in the published books. I haven't reached volume 9 of the History of Middle Earth, not even close, but now Imma go look for this epilogue as soon as possible. How lovely is this prologue; how nicely does it round some unfortunate sharp edges. How badly have I needed this completion, in particular, to Sam's story and character arc. How much have I been missing it, even without knowing it before today. Somehow it always felt that Sam's chapter on the Red Book had been missing. Alas! that Tolkien should have listened to this advise, mistaken in spite of how well intentioned, as opposed to what his heart so desperatly had been trying to tell him. Let this be a reminder for me, one I greatly have been needing: advise on what to cut out of a story is doubtlessly worth pondering; still the heart may know better than a couple dozen minds every now and then.

@qwertyTRiG

5 ай бұрын

I wonder might he have been convinced to put it in the appendices instead?

Tolkien does something in both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings that few authors would dare to do: He follows the climax with anticlimax after anticlimax after anticlimax. The climax in The Hobbit was the death of Smaug and in the Lord of the Rings it was the destruction of the One Ring. But those were far from the ends of the stories.

@tsm688

2 ай бұрын

The Hobbit was a quite complex story where every victor ended up giving up quite a lot. The Lord of the Rings, with its monomanical ring-focus, didn't convey that half as well.

Tolkien's choice was above criticism. The ending as published is quite satisfying; there are no major loose threads to be dealt with. I can't imagine any continutation that would add rather than detract from the story as it stands.

I'm happy with the ending as originally published. Indeed, I understood that Rosie didn't know of Sam's feelings for her until, AFTER all the dangers he faced and the courage he showed throughout the story; only after he returns (with "real" wisdom of course) does he approach her with the courage to seek true love. After all, she might have said "No". 😢

@john-ic5pz

5 ай бұрын

say no to the returning hero?! 😲 true tho....that's a legit twist 😊

@robingill9940

5 ай бұрын

sam telling frodo about his proposal said that rose complained that he hadn't proposed earlier.. before he went off.. remember rose was the farmers daughter and sam only son of a gardener.. his trip away was as much to rise the social ladder to get a wife as to see elves and the world..[class system]

@mrsamtheman80

5 ай бұрын

@@john-ic5pz Since the films have Frodo tell Sam no, then no telling what artistic license one might take in bastardizing this great work! (Love the movies in general, but this is even worse than Filmamir by far.)

@12classics39

4 ай бұрын

She never would’ve said “no,” at least not in book canon. When Sam returns in the book, Rosie lets him know she is upset that he left and has been waiting and waiting for him to come back. Clearly, she wanted and loved him, even before the quest. I feel like this is beautiful as Sam never really needed to prove anything to her. She saw how special he was long before he saw it in himself. For some reason the movies changed this and eliminated all of Rosie’s dialogue that gives us a glimpse of her personality and feelings toward Sam; I think was a big mistake to cut all of that.

@daniellefaure9817

3 ай бұрын

Same (pareil) ❤

I never knew there was an epilogue beyond the appendices and I didn't find THEM for many years after my first reading. I always adored the ending, as written. It left me filled with hope for Sam and Rosie's future, without having to wonder what it would be. The age of peace had come and they, at least, would bear fruit before the next... 🤷‍♂ Thanks so much for sharing it.

Like you, Robert I think the ending we were left with was the best one. And yet I can appreciate that epilogue too.

That ending is beautiful. It does give away Tolkien’s belief that Sam was the hero (he was absolutely correct). That ending, while sweetly sentimental had no home in a heavily tapestried story of war and magic and politics. It’s still beautiful.

@braemtes23

4 ай бұрын

Sam was A hero. There were many heroes in LOTR. None more so than Frodo who bore a burden beyond comprehension that painfully dragged him down both physically and spiritually. Who bore several mortal wounds; one that tormented him for the rest of his life so much so that he had to forfeit all the joys of this world. Who walked into a type of hell to save the world of which he would no longer be a part. Frodo would not have made it to Mount Doom without Sam, and we all admire and love him for it. Even so, Sam's burden was not a torment as Frodo's was. His very being wasn't damaged the way Frodo's was. Sam went on to live a life more wonderful than even he could have imagined. Frodo's life was a tragedy and he sacrificed himself for love of Middle Earth. Frodo's self-sacrifice and suffering for the sake of others make him more heroic, as I understand heroism, than any other character in the story.

@12classics39

4 ай бұрын

@@braemtes23THANK YOU! Spot on! Say it louder for the people in the back!

@joerosenman3480

Ай бұрын

@@braemtes23 I’m not replying (late!) to argue but to illuminate a different perspective. I’m not part of the “Sam is THE hero camp; I’m more of the “Fellowship were heroes” view (well, minus Boromir, who at least redeemed himself) BUT… Frodo had the burden to bear, true. One could argue his fight was with Sauron-but that isn’t the way magic works in Tolkien’s world. Frodo’s fight became a battle with the ring and that was an inner, spiritual battle. The ring was carried but its power was internalized-that’s how it got its hooks in you. Wearing it it took over. Bearing it it had enormous influence over you and increasing control. Frodo’s battle was real-and the consequences affected everyone-but it was HIS private battle. To quote: only one person can wear the ring at one time. Frodo gave his all and, in the end, failed. It is important to remember: Frodo failed-at an impossible task. And the task *was* impossible. No mortal being could have borne the ring for any period of time and thrown it into Mt. Doom. None. I doubt even Sam, had he magically been transported from Cirith Ungol to Mt. Doom, could have thrown the ring into the fire. It was described as having a kind of sentience. It betrayed Isildur by slipping off his finger. It tried to get back to Sauron. It would have exerted everything to coerce and convince Sam of the “better future” Sam could have with the ring in (on) hand… So no, no mortal. Gollum was absolutely a critical part of the story of the rings’ destruction. And thus: so too was Gandalf’s prescient words about mercy, Sauron’s arrogant decision to release Gollum as a broken thing to act as yet another compliant spy, Frodo’s acts of mercy towards Gollum, Faramir’s choices (book!) during their encounter. Sam did not come out as well in the Gollum test, yet his actions were critical in the setup of events at Mt. Doom. Frodo bore the ring at enormous cost and *delivered* the ring to Mt. Doom at the right moment but could do no more. At the moment of his inevitable failure, Gollum (inevitably) struck to regain the ring. Fate, literally, hung in the balance. Gollum could have won as he did, run off and inevitably been captured by the Nazgul. Frodo could have won and… same outcome. Either could have fallen into the fire with the ring-as it happened, it was Gollum. Fitting ending. Fast forward to the Scouring. Frodo didn’t take up arms but tried to prevent fighting, especially hobbit on hobbit fighting. The other three were leaders in the restoration of hobbit rule. All of which is to say: Frodo wasn’t a hero (beyond being a member of the Fellowship), he was a martyr. He was a marked victim from the start, performing his role required that he sacrifice himself (because if nothing else bearing the ring would eat him alive). Sam risked his life to protect and save Frodo-that was heroic. That, by definition, are the acts of a hero. So is Frodo lesser for doing what-as Gandalf described-what was appointed to him? Hardly! He was legend. He was beyond the ken of most mortals having completed a task given by the Powers of the World (or Eru himself). But at the cost of being able to live in mortal lands. He didn’t suffer the physical death that was hovering over his last days in Mordor but he suffered a kind of spiritual death: not of values but of presence. His spirit had become increasingly out of place. He didn’t belong in the spirit (ring’s) world, he no longer belonged in the mortal world. His spirit-a very big deal deal in Tolkien’s world-was damaged. It needed to heal and become one with his body before his death. Here we get into deep Tolkien-lore: middle-Earth was infected by Morgoth during the First Age and was permanently marred; it is why the elves were recalled to the uttermost West. I guess mankind was deemed capable of learning to deal with it (or their sensitivities were sufficiently less…) Elves that chose to remain were doomed to rapidly fade into somnolence… So Frodo *needed* to go to a pure, unsullied place to heal before he died. The Valar wouldn’t permit a mortal into Valinor by ancient, long-standing decree. Eldamar was viable compromise. And so it was decreed. Frodo-and Bilbo-were an easy allowance. Sam… was a stretch. If you go with Gimli-I personally don’t see how because it opens an uncomfortable door, but-every member of the Fellowship would become eligible, and an argument could be made for Arwen. But given the rules of Tolkien’s universe I believe only ring-bearers were given that special grace. So to conclude: describing Frodo as a martyr isn’t denigrating or dismissing what he did, far from it-it is describing it. Tolkien himself emphasized that Frodo failed at an impossible task. Fortune saved the day-and Gollum, and mercy.

I think they should've done a mid-credits scene where Eleanor sees Sam off to the West... you would've needed one more actor, and could've shot it on the same day or days as when Bilbo and Frodo left... but Sam deserved to sail on-screen. He was, after all, the last of the Ring-bearers.

@12classics39

4 ай бұрын

Now that Sean Astin’s daughter Alexandra is an adult, she and her father could actually film this extra scene any day now and Jackson could add it to an Extended Extended Edition with even more footage, which he has already said will be made, eventually. (Remember she played little Elanor in that last scene of the film, so she could nowadays play an adult Elanor.)

@MrsTi333

4 ай бұрын

That I think would have had an amazing impact.

i felt so empty that the story was over and would have consumed any additonal words by Mr Tolkein. That said i understand why it was left out, and believe it was probably for the best. I enjoy your take and reading of it. thank you and Merry Xmas DG

Nice presentation. Thank you. The epilogue was there for our eventual enjoyment. But without ever knowing about it I loved the world Tolkien created and shared. Now knowing his thoughts on Samwise's homelife and a few thoughts on it, well, it's lovely.

Tolkien anticipated the 'FAQ' form by many years, in a way-a fair bit of it is answering questions from Sam's children. Although it would have weakened the finish of the novel, I have often wished that he could have revised it into a stand-alone short story years later, when Allen & Unwin were asking him if he had anything new (he ended up giving them the unexpected Smith of Wootton Major). With Pauline Baynes illustrations (Aragorn and Arwen at the Brandywine Bridge greeting Sam and family, yes please?), the Epilogue could have been a much-loved part of the Tolkien mythos after all. I suspect that he had simply forgotten the discarded Epilogue as a publishable item by that time.

Fantastic Video, In Deep Geek. We appreciate all the effort and of course, Tolkien deserves it. ;)

I am 80 tears old. From my youth, I have read the entire series several times with enormous pleasure every time. i am currently in the middle of The Fellowship right now. After reading of the eventual death of King Aragorn, and the sorrowful wandering in the wild of Arwen, I think the tale sounds complete to me. But that's just me.

Thank you Robert! :-) I love this video I got chills when you were reading out the order of events and then the last few lines of the epilogue! :-) I’m blind and have not yet found an audio copy of the 12 volume history of middle earth so it is amazing to know that this epilogue exists and it is published in volume nine of the history. I shall petition Audible that the 12 volume history to be recorded if it isn’t already. I’m so glad you did this video and you did a great job, but the fan of Tolkien that I am and the author that I am really wants to read the epilogue in full as it was written. :-)

Man, I love your take on Tolkiens thoughts and ideas.. Every time I watch one of you'r videos, I can't help but to just sit and nod in agreement.. Love your work, keep it up..❤

@amandaofhouserobinson6707

5 ай бұрын

Me too! Always! ❤😊

@ericdavison6186

5 ай бұрын

❤

"I'm back." Think of young soldier Tolkien returning home from the trenches. It is a profound statement.

In the other draft of the epilogue in HOME9, if I recall correctly, he goes through the King's letter in more detail and they plan for Elanor to be a handmaid to Arwen, also very interesting.

I can see why Tolkien wanted to include the epilogue so much. It would be really lovely to see what "happily ever after" looked like for Sam and the other characters, especially after all they sacrificed to achieve that happily ever after. However, I think the story ends at a good place. Frodo is passing over the sea to find healing. Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel are finally returning home after their long years fighting against Sauron. Now Sam can return home to his family and a lifetime of peace and prosperity in The Shire. It's the dawning of a new Age, with all the melancholy and hope that entails.

Perfect! Just at the right time for me to watch while I fall asleep!

I like your take at the end - the books end well on “I’m back” but I’m still going to consider this epilogue canon.

The ending as it stands carries a strong vibe of the Age of Men beginning, the most extraordinary characters having sailed away to their long homes, Frodo and Bilbo to some rest and recovery to make their passing happy.

Great video! I love the idea of the epilogue. Even though it’s not in LOTR it feels canonical.

Sam couldn't be reading what ultimately happened to all of the other major characters because their resolutions take place after Rose passed on, at which point Sam left the Shire. Aragorn lives for another 65 years after this, and Legolas and Gimli do not sail for Valinor until after Aragorn's passing.

@qwertyTRiG

5 ай бұрын

I love that Gimli's passage is reported as a rumour. The appendices really do read like the work of a careful historian.

@tsm688

2 ай бұрын

Interesting point. So Elanor must have been in careful contact with a bunch of people.

@qwertyTRiG

2 ай бұрын

@tsm688 The Shire seems to have acquired more of a tradition of libraries and research due to the activities of Sam and his descendants, and also of Merry, with his _Herblore of the Shire_ and other works.

@tsm688

2 ай бұрын

@@qwertyTRiG One book is not a library, and we've seen nothing else.

Eleanor may well have been conceived in the year, or near the time that he broadcast the dust from Lothlorian... i wonder if it could have made her more Elven? Remember it was said that so many children born that year had curly golden hair.

@12classics39

4 ай бұрын

Yes, that is the reason. Galadriel’s dust caused all the children born or begotten that year to somewhat resemble her in Elven fairness and golden hair.

@tsm688

2 ай бұрын

@@12classics39 How different that looks to modern genetic understanding LOL. Galadriel basically fucked them all

@12classics39

2 ай бұрын

@@tsm688 well, regardless of how much Tolkien knew about genetics, I think it’s a great detail. Galadriel isn’t really the only Elf with golden hair. Many Elves do. And the dust from her orchard that Sam cast into the air was absorbed by the Shirefolk and passed into their children, to sort of bring an Elvish essence into the baby hobbits. Long after all the Elves sail away, their beauty will be preserved within the Shire’s Mallorn Tree and the hobbits who were born with a touch of Elven magic inside them.

@joerosenman3480

Ай бұрын

@@tsm688 Elvish magic!

I've always enjoyed the Hobbit and the LOTR books. My mind though, I think would have liked to read further as to where everyone ended up. One day, thought, my 8 yr old son kept telling my he was bored and it was too hot outside to play. So I handed him, my well worn copy of the Hobbit. I didn't hear complaints, and a week later he wanted to know if there was more. So I handed him LOTR. Not only was he hooked, he still reads it and when his own children were growing up he read it to them and then gave the books to read for themselves when they got a bit older. These are stories that will live forever, in our hearts and minds.

Tolkien just loved to include as many ending as possible, but now I know even he had some restraint

Thanks for a great year of reflection and analysis!

@InDeepGeek

5 ай бұрын

Thank you!

Love your work, Robert!

Thank you for this, for reading the final verse so eloquently. I feel a little more complete having heard it. Knowing the story of LotR, mainly through the BBC radio play (not having seen the movies) and reading the novels only once, this epilogue finishes off the story, for me. However...however, you quietly glad of not having this epilogue included made me think of the ending of the radio play and Sam's "I'm back" does, indeed, finish that tale nicely. But as I have said, I am familiar with the story as told in the radio plays, and I listen to it probably once a year, and now having that little bit more of the story makes me realise I did want more. The story of the ring was not complete until Sam crosses the Sundering Sea and therefore, the LotR is not complete while Sam still lives in the Shire. The epilogue also tells us there are no true endings; there's only a continuation of life. As the song tells us, life (the road) goes ever on.

At one time I wanted the story to go on and on, but there was only one story of the Lord of the rings, and I had read it. what else he would’ve added, would’ve been a different story. It was a magical book.

@neil999ish

4 ай бұрын

The road goes ever on, where branches ever grow to a different destination you never know and new destinies that can show. Ware where your feet do go.

Can't help but get emotional even just watching this video

@pentegarn1

5 ай бұрын

Yeah me too.....

Thanks for sharing these deeply satisfying clues to how the story never ends

I definitely would have loved to hear Rosie explain to Sam of her longing for his return and how she clung to HOPE until that fateful day when she saw him trotting down the path in Hobbiton and how her heart leapt in her chest & tears of joy flowed.

@valleyscharping

5 ай бұрын

Me too

@12classics39

4 ай бұрын

That whole detail is so beautiful that it makes me sad/frustrated that Rosie literally has no lines at all in the movies. Nor does she have any personality. She’s just “a girl Sam has his eye on,” nothing more. In her few lines in the book as well as this amazing speech from her in the epilogue, she really feels like a person, showing spunk, compassion, and strong intuition, all the qualities that make her perfect for Sam and prove that he doesn’t just love her because she’s pretty.

@joeybox0rox649

4 ай бұрын

@12classics39 Sam was a busy guy and she paid for that enthusiasm with 13 kids. I have 1 and she's more than enough.

@tsm688

2 ай бұрын

@@12classics39 To hell with the movies, Rosie has basically no lines even in the **book**!

@12classics39

2 ай бұрын

@@tsm688 yeah but what she does have is pretty cool. She tells Sam “I’ve been expecting you since the spring” which is insane because she had absolutely no way of knowing about anything that was happening over in Mordor, but the very day the Ring was destroyed, she accurately sensed somehow that Sam was on his way home (which was because his quest was fulfilled in that moment, 1000 miles away). That’s a pretty amazing detail that indicates she has a strong connection with Sam. Much stronger than the shallow “come hither” looks she always gives him in the movie, with no indication that they have ever actually talked or know each other well enough to get married.

Great video ! Appreciate it !

I like that it exists but I prefer the ending we got.

Sam and Rosie were always a story upon themselves and I think Tolkien could have written an entire book about the Wisegamgies family and adventures. The same with Gimli and Legolas.. The adventures those two could have had together!! And what about Awoen and Farimir? Unfortunately for us Tolkien never did expand upon these character arcs with more books.. Our loss.. You have done a wonderful job over the years discussing and sharing perspective on all the characters and the story lines. I thank you..

The deleted ending...at this later date...appreciated. But, the master work was better served by the loose ends being tied up in the appendices... I am 74...and have been surprised at how many people have read LOTR...but have never even peeked at the appendices... Those of them who have followed my suggestion and were quite pleased do have done so. YP

My crying! This is lovely!

We know Eleanor would become a lady in waiting to the Queen. After this

A book has to have an ending, no matter how much the author may enjoy writing it. That mat have been Tolkein's problem - LotR has a massive climax - the evil is defeated - but unlike some stories, it can't just end there. You're so invested in the characters and their world, that ending there would be an anti-climax. The work is so compelling, that the aftermath seems almost as important as the journey. Hence, it has to wind down, lines and questions need resolving, but, as said, it has to end somewhere and the series of vignettes, for me, brings it down both logically and gently. My own favourite is the discovery of Saruman's revenge, and the harrowing of the Shire; but then Sam knowing that Saruman's power is broken leading him to raise the Hobbits - small creatures as they are - to drive him out. Followed then by Sam renewing the Shire with the soil of Rivendell - all the darkness and light of the main story in a single small chapter. I always felt it was fitting that with all the mighty heroes, wizards and foes encountered in LotR, it ends on Sam: back home, job done, and happy.

@saraheschweiler4939

4 ай бұрын

Love, love, love Rivendell! Such a beautiful place in my mind's eye. Also love Lothlorien...an exquisite dwelling place for Galadriel, Celeborn, & their community of elves. The Lady Galadriel gave to Sam, in a small wooden box, some soil from enchanted Lothlorien, along with a Mallorn-tree seed, which he planted to take the place of Bilbo's beloved old Party Tree, which Saruman/Sharky's ruffians had cut down.

@unclenogbad1509

4 ай бұрын

@@saraheschweiler4939 Oops, yes, my mistake - the soil was from Lothlorien, as you say. I happily echo your sentiments, tho. Thanks.

I love you in deep geek. Very well done analysis of some of my favorite fantasy series. Merry Christmas and a Hallyday new year!

Literally just finished watching the extended edition of the trilogy and this pops up on my feed!

This was a wise decision on the part of J.R.R. Tolkien. For the true fan it's a great edition to the story. But, for the average person the original ending is enough and beautiful.

The lure of the sea... I, for one, would have welcomed a continuation of the tale.