Every time I see something really complicated and difficult to understand, I label it "Tolkien 's classification of Elves"

@nathanscarlett4772

10 ай бұрын

😂 nice

@john.premose

9 ай бұрын

Well thats rubbish

@roberthaig2133

5 ай бұрын

This comment and the 2 responses encapsulates the whole internet

@StuartLegomanLittle

4 ай бұрын

For myself I just think that it is related to Dune, because the lore of Dune is the most confusing thing I have personally delved into.

I think Ulmo would have found herding the cats of Queen Berúthiel easier than guiding all those bloody elves to Valinor.

@KorriTimigan

10 ай бұрын

It really must have been frustrating. Given the clues all through the books about how the Elves perceive time, the fact that even by their standards it took a long time to migrate tells us a lot. Reading the passage in the books you might get an idea that it took somewhere from a few months to a few years, but I can't help but think poor Ulmo* sat for centuries on that peninsula waiting for the stragglers to catch up. *Edit: Whoops, I meant Oromë

@nickim6571

10 ай бұрын

Herding cats is actually very easy, I do it with mine and a can of their favorite food!

@stcredzero

10 ай бұрын

Someone should do a parody of Tolkien's works with cats instead of elves. The "Feli?"

@SKRRTCOBAIN00

10 ай бұрын

@@stcredzeroTolkien going to haunt the one who is doing it 🤣 He’s not so fond of Cats

@MusMasi

10 ай бұрын

🤣 true

I'm glad these essays have started discussing things a little from the angle of _"why did Tolkien choose to write it that way?"_ rather than limiting itself purely to in-world lore. The note about ethnicity always mixing together with different layers ending up too merged to distinguish is particularly on the nose. Identity is never simply inherited from one's parents: nations, ethnicities, and other socio-political groups are continuously created, recycled, and discarded. Most fiction authors want to keep things simple (to make life easier both for themselves and the reader), but Tolkien indulged in creating a network of identities full of depth - only to make it irrelevant compared to people's actions.

@midshipman8654

10 ай бұрын

I can understand that to a degree, but I also think going into why besides the broad thematic can get into pigeonholed analogies. Anyways, I usually agree with In Deep Geeks points, but this one im not so sure on. in My reading of the silmarillion, legacy, lineage, and groups is exceedingly important, and is never just “thrown away” or become irrelivent in the face of peoples actions. their actions are informed and are intemently a product of where they came from. How they acted upon it is character dependent, but it is not something disregarded. It is added too, surely, but being a son of Feanor is extremely important. so too is being a noldor or a sindar, or from the house of Thingol or Beorn. These are important things that form a greater whole on top of other important things.

@AlecBrady

4 ай бұрын

​@@midshipman8654 "intemently"? It's a lovely word, but what does it mean?

"They're just elves. They don't die. How complicated can that be?" Tolkien: *Yes.*

Elf genealogy summary: It's complicated.

@Falcrist

10 ай бұрын

SO complicated, though...

The Valar's great sin was inviting the elves west, breaking what should have been an older sibling relationship with Men and sundering them from Middle Earth which was supposed to be their natural home

@Alexs.2599

10 ай бұрын

Ulmo would certainly agree with that.

@SantomPh

10 ай бұрын

they had to save the Elves from possible extinction as Melkor literally wanted to destroy the world. The worst side effect is that the Valar were absent when Men awoke, with no Orome able to guide Men west as well. The remaining Elves also looked askance at Men, so their first meetings were probably not friendly. Melkor poisoned Middle Earth, so the Elves could only truly live in Valinor, which is what the world of Middle Earth would be like if Morgoth hadn't appeared.

@dandiehm8414

10 ай бұрын

I would say mistake, not sin. There was never any intent to harm the elves. And Manwe was in constant communication with Eru.

@user-wr5hs4sx7j

6 ай бұрын

There was no sin, it was all part of the Song.

@JN-so6wt

2 ай бұрын

@@user-wr5hs4sx7j so was melkor's discord, and feanor+noldor rebellion. that's a copout unless you're absolving them of sin, and any other acts of evil, because it was 'part of the song'

Amazing how much later fiction has borrowed from this lore

@Unpainted_Huffhines

10 ай бұрын

TLOTR is the Magna Carta of modern fantasy, in the same way Dune is for Sci Fi.

@Falcrist

10 ай бұрын

@@Unpainted_Huffhines I have to disagree about Dune and Sci Fi. Isaac Asimov and Arthur C. Clarke are far more influential. I'm certainly not trying to put down Frank Herbert, but his work is not as foundational (pun intended) as Tolkien's or the other two I mentioned.

@Unpainted_Huffhines

10 ай бұрын

@@Falcrist True enough. I didnt even consider Asimov, my error.

@sulljoh1

10 ай бұрын

@@Unpainted_Huffhines Oh yeah - Didn't Asimov introduce the idea of a galactic empire, ecumenopolis, and hyper drive in like 1940?

@Richard_Nickerson

10 ай бұрын

​@@sulljoh1 Invented the term Robot

Technically the notion of Light Elves and Dark Elves predates Tolkien. Norse mythology had Light Elves (Ljósálfar) and Dark Elves (Dökkálfar), as well as Black Elves (Svartálfar, though there's some debate about whether this was a distinct type of elf, another name for Dökkálfar, or just a synonym for the dwarfs). Tolkien was aware of these traditions and created a backstory to explain the distinction between Light and Dark Elves in his legendarium. So while the modern High Elves and Dark Elves of D&D and other fantasy universes owe a lot to Tolkien, the idea of light and dark sub-groups of elves has been around for a long time.

You made a very good point on highlighting that in the third age all the different kinds of elves came together after been separated. But there is still an element to this where the old differences still exists. Its always the ''higher elven groups'' who are the leaders over the ''lesser races'' like Nandor. When Oropher goes to Mirkwood with a group of Sindar, they make him king instead of someone among those who lived there for generations. The same case is with Amdir and later Celeborn and Galadriel in Lorinand. When a Sindar or Noldor arrives to a group of ''lesser elves'' they become automatically their leader. Even in the second and third age, there is still some kind of ruling class among elves.

@jeffengel2607

10 ай бұрын

It makes you wonder just what sorts of activities may have gone into establishing these ruling classes that don't make it to the histories. Noldor imperialism may be white-washed into "oh, these guys just up and made us kings, nothing to see here...."

@midshipman8654

10 ай бұрын

yes, i think he went a bit far into the greys and fluxes of the peoples, which is true to a degree, but the legacies of their distinct natures actions and histories is also an important not to dismiss either. if anything, i think a quote on Aragorn might encapsulate a greater thematic tone “you are Isildur’s Heir, not isildur himself” it vindicates the importance of legacy, one is not separated from their origin, you are its progression, its heir, its apotheosis, but you are not it in a static form. Aragorn does take up Isildurs mantle as king, he does not shirk it, but he let go of the ring and frodo in a way isildur did not. Likeswise the Noldor ARE wise and powerful, and this can lead to both great folly like the Sons of Feanor, but also great acts like Galadriel. Them being of the noldor is fundemental to their being.

@kyomademon453

3 ай бұрын

Most nandor and avari aren't organized, they're likely hunter gatherers living in caves or forests likely having no more organization than small clans, sindar and noldor have higher and more complex organizations

Love this Avari lore! They deserve more attention 🌟✨

@RandomRhyme

10 ай бұрын

Land under stars Cuiviénen Awake the elves Quendi Avari Nurwëlië Refuse a truce from godly moose "Oromë", is it? Nonsense Mor-over No'va In jest of future sight Yonder woe as glee A blight reprieve aggrieves Tisk This ... dark lord? No, never met Wisp ... lord of nothing Folly mystech Yet Maybe, heed need not Though a foe may chance within Be further ill, those on return Stay a'way'k Hear by the lake On blades of grass Yawn dreams to nap H'our numbers count By star-zen charm A flicker mischief Music instrument -*- How be travels? Savior Savage Thought the wind could carry you Froth the whim Soothe weary view Best set adrift a whistle kiss As sure azure How 'bout new shoes? Learned and planted Damned be damp id Dry again and dancin' Met a spiral, "hell, oh"? Balance, bonk Revampéd Worth What is it? Full's wr'etch Hue'n more yule fool Ghostial guest Ire gains Time fecks derange Space fades to wait Err eager play Trip, drip, flip, slip Shift, sift, quip, dip Miss, bliss, diss List: Never "Nephyr"? Aye Half-blind Swim sky Be'sigh'd Nîr nyérë

This is amazing. Tougher to follow than the people and history of the Balkans, but still great. Thanks.

“Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder. Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels. Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies. Elves are glamorous. They project glamour. Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment. Elves are terrific. They beget terror. The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning. No one ever said elves are nice. Elves are bad.” - Terry Pratchett, Lords and Ladies

That was breathtaking--an amazing amount of research and preparation and thoughtful narration. Thank you for using your talents this way, Robert.

Finally I've been asking for this information for years and nobody knows. The other channels just don't address it. Thank you for explaining this

@IngoSchwarze

10 ай бұрын

If you enjoyed this, consider reading the Silmarillion; i estimate that it contains about 80% of the information presented here. The rest is harder to find though and scattered around various books. Most prominent among those are the Unfinished Tales, i think.

You would think there would be more tales of the original Avari. They must have been pretty interesting and might be still alive.

@Einungbrekke

5 ай бұрын

As far as I understand it, the soul of an elf is bound to the land, so that even if the physical being isn't immortal, the soul is. Therefore, every elf that have ever been around, is still there, in a manner of speaking, physical or not.

@GIDEONgame

Ай бұрын

Where do you think Orc's come from?

I'd say Irish folk lore and the book of invasions had a hand in this. The Firbolg and Túatha Dé Danann were a group of people who entered, and later left, Ireland. One going south-east, and the others going north-east. The Firbolg are enslaved, but manage to escape, and make it back to Ireland first. They are scattered all round the coast, so they walk inland. Eventually all meeting up at Tara. The Túatha Dé Danann return thirty-seven years after the Firbolg. Their king, Nuada, asks to be given half the island, but the Fir Bolg king Eochaid refuses. The two groups meet at the Pass of Balgatan, and the ensuing battle-the First Battle of Mag Tuired-lasts for four days. Candle lit tales has a good version of the story of the Firbolg, and the First Battle of Mag Tuired. The whole thing is very tragic since they are the same people. Exiles driven out by the Fomorians. The Firbolg have a not so great king with some form of doom hanging over him, and a bit of an ego. The Túatha Dé Danann just don't seem to see why giving them half of Ireland should be an issue. After all they have as much right to it as the Firbolg, plus they have fancy magical items, and spells.

Trying to read that part of the Appendices that talks about the different elven branches is like trying to read stereo instructions.

@random22026

10 ай бұрын

😁😁😆😆😅😅🤣🤣😂😂

@rusinoe8364

10 ай бұрын

​​​@@salvohatteras8327Come on, you think they even know that Tolkien wrote books?

@Falcrist

10 ай бұрын

@@rusinoe8364 I think they're doing ok considering how limited the material is. Remember, they only have access to LOTR and The Hobbit. No Sil, no HOME, no UT, not even Fall of Numenor.

@spacemissing

10 ай бұрын

Nah. Stereo instructions are easier. But Tolkien is Far More Entertaining on repeated readings.

@akasgsvirgil9503

10 ай бұрын

@@spacemissing Indeed

Robert, all this artwork showing Eol while you discuss the Moriquendi-quite humorous! Thank you for that bit of brilliance!

Lovely and precisely what I enjoy most about Howard's antidiluvian world of Conan as well.

This left my head spinning! Will have to watch it a dozen times more!!!!!

You missed one branch of elves: the Qrystmus elves, who are skilled craftsmen, especially known for fashioning children’s toys.

Amazon would simply show the difference between the Noldor & the Teleri with the former having a faded hair cut, while the latter has probably some braids or afro

@GIDEONgame

Ай бұрын

A shame really. The Teleri being natural seafarers and the Noldor being natural crafters, they could have quite easily make the two stand out with their outfits. Perhaps the Noldor carrying gems and having metal woven into their finely crafted clothting, with hair that is carefully tied and maintained as to not obstuct or hinder daily tasks, yet also reflect their mastery over the sculpting of hair. Meanwhile the Teleri would wear large blue cloaks over their white gleaming robes to keep themselfs warm. Their hair would be long a freeflowing, being generally unbothered by it and savoring the feeling of it catching sea wind.

Amazingly complex lineages! I will need to watch this video a few times to absorb it all. Well done 👏🏼

It's worth mentioning that Tolkein didn't invent the idea of a distinction between light and dark elves. Like many aspects of his legedarium, he was inspired by Old Norse literature. In the 13th century Prose Edda of Snorri Sturluson, we are told of two races of elves called the Ljósálfar and Dökkálfar; the former are said to dwell in the heavenly realm of Álfheimr and to be "fairer than the sun to look at" and the latter to dwell within the earth and to have a dark complexion. (Snorri also uses the term "svartálfar" or "black elves" - but he seems to associate this term with more dwarfs that elves as we normally think of them).

Person: So how many kinds of elves are there? JRRT: YES

Love this topic and hoping for more like this! Thank you Robert

Tolkiens Elves are definitly prettier than Skyrim elves.

Lovely video. I always enjoy encountering Tolkins complexicity.

This is great, thanks for posting.

Given Tolkien's massive and era-spanning world building it would be insane (or lazy) for there not to be a few different races within the elven species. The amazing thing is that most fantasy starts with "Oh I want High Elves, Wood Elves, and Dark Elves" and then if they decide to provide any reason for the differences they'll work backwards. Tolkien started at the beginning and let his branches of elven-kind develop naturally, which is why they're so good. Another reason why Amazon's complete lack of understanding of the races in Middle Earth is so frustrating to those who care.

@Sol-Amar

10 ай бұрын

I thought the team behind R.O.P. didn't get full rights to the stories so they had to "make due" or fill in the blanks.

@jarlwilliam9932

10 ай бұрын

All elves in Lotr are the same race/species biologically speaking. In fact all elves and humans in Lotr are the same race biologically speaking.

@dandiehm8414

10 ай бұрын

@@Sol-Amar No - they didn't think the material was suited "for modern audiences" so they made up stuff to reflect their current social justice campaign. It had nothing to do with Tolkien.

@dandiehm8414

10 ай бұрын

@@jarlwilliam9932 Not so the Humans. The Variags of Khand and the Southrons seem very different from the Rohirrim/Gondorians. And in the Silmarillion, the three houses of men in the west (the house of Beor, the Haladin, and the house of Hador) from which the men in the northwest of Middle Earth during the Lord Of The Rings were all descended, all had specific physical differences that made them appear to be of different race.

@jarlwilliam9932

10 ай бұрын

@@dandiehm8414 Tolkien letter 153 Tolkien, “I suppose that actually the chief difficulties I have involved myself in are scientific and biological - which worry me just as much as the theological and metaphysical (though you do not seem to mind them so much). Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring - even as a rare event : there are 2 cases only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Eärendil.1 But since some have held that the rate of longevity is a biological characteristic, within limits of variation, you could not have Elves in a sense 'immortal' - not eternal, but not dying by 'old age' - and Men mortal, more or less as they now seem to be in the Primary World - and yet sufficiently akin. I might answer that this 'biology' is only a theory, that modern 'gerontology', or whatever they call it, finds 'ageing' rather more mysterious, and less clearly inevitable in bodies of human structure. But I should actually answer: I do not care. This is a biological dictum in my imaginary world. It is only (as yet) an incompletely imagined world, a rudimentary 'secondary'; but if it pleased the Creator to give it (in a corrected form) Reality on any plane, then you would just have to enter it and begin studying its different biology, that is all.”

wonderful video as always - am often struck by the similarities between Tolkien's elves and the Tuatha De Danann in Irish mythology, the "fair folk" - there's also a rumour that he may have taken inspiration for Gollum from a cave in Co Clare named after a Saint Colm, Poll na gColm (pronounced "powl na gollum"), in the Burren.

@eric2500

10 ай бұрын

WOW! JRRT did love the sound of words - evident in his writing for children - so this rumor might be true - even if not, thank you for sharing it!

Glad I found this channel. You Sir, are a True Scholar!

I loved this video! Thanks for sharing!

Wonderful video as always mate

Excellent Thank you for getting into Silmarillion material. My jam at the moment

So elves are Slavs in a sense if you do enough mental gymnastics (since Sloven/Slovyan means “worded one”/speaker as opposed to foreigners with their incomprehensible languages who might as well be mute as far as the early Slavs were concerned).

Excellent video. I like the reference to all elves being all elves. It is a long history but a nice family reunion at the end. The little elven trash talk with each other is amusing. (I personally do not like dissing the valar. they are good rulers of the world. But I will be nice and let you off on that.)

I've recently discovered this channel and love your explanations like how Sauron didn't know the Shire or how Gandalf didn't recognize the One Ring. One point that struck me after the travels of Gandalf video was why didn't Gandalf run into Beorn before the events of The Hobbit?

@FuerstMykisch

5 ай бұрын

Hi. Can u tell me in which video he treats the explanation of why Gabdalf did not recognize the one ring please?

Excellent. The last 3 minutes of this video tying the Tolkein mythology into real British history elevated this to a great height. Thanks.

I just love your videos - thank you!

Thank-you, very interesting and helpful!

Thankyou for this video

There is one detail i can't fully agree with: that in the end, the whole elvendom was united again. The Vanyar (mostly living in Valinor directly at the feet of Manwë), those relatively few Noldor who refused to follow Feänor to his self-imposed exile (mostly living in Tirion in the pass between the land of the Valar and the sea), the Teleri of Aman (mostly living around Alqualondë = Swanhaven by the sea), and even those Noldor and Sindar who left Middle Earth after the end of the First Age and took up their abode on Tol Eresseä, did not take part in the reunion during the Second and Third Ages that you so nicely describe. By the time Galadriel, Cirdan, Elrond and Gildor went to Aman at the beginning of the Fourth age, the last time any of the above four groups had seen any of the elves of Middle Earth was literally two ages ago. And they were already considerably estranged when they parted. While the Noldor and Sindar of Middle-Earth had become artificers, scholars, diplomats and warriors - in short, in spite of all their elvendom, thoroughly earthly peoples - simplifying a bit, the Vanyar had somewhat turned into monks living in close, personal communion with their gods, whereas the Teleri of Aman might perhaps be best described as romantic isolationists by this point - not intended in any negative way, mind you. I do not doubt that the elves of Tirion would welcome Galadriel and Gildor back as a long-lost cousins, and the elves of Alqualondë would welcome Cirdan back as an even longer-lost cousin, and the elves of Eresseä Elrond, and all of them would likely bow to Olorin = Gandalf in reverence and be flabbergasted, not knowing what to say, at the sight of Bilbo, who, i figure, might head straight for Valinor to live among the Vanyar, which would by far surpass even his wildest hopes and dreams. Can you imagine Bilbo reciting some of the poetry he personally composed in Rivendell before Manwë and Varda, and falling asleep of exhaustion in the middle of it? Then again, i doubt that even now, the Teleri of Aman would look to kindly on Galadriel and Gildor. Both the Vanyar and the people of Tirion might tell all the returning elves: "You brought all this upon yourselves, and you know what, we told you so when it was still time, but you refused to listen. On top of that, we fought that bloody war on your behalf at the end of the First Age, overthrowing Melkor for good. But you squandered all that by letting that other Dark Lord Sauron arise, even collaborating with him forging some magic rings, most of which he ended up using to your detriment and that of Men. Frankly, all this sounds exceedingly foolish to us, and quite predictably, not exactly a resounding success either. For example, regarding Numenor, matters got out of hand in such a terrible way that Eru Iluvatar himself felt compelled to intervene, not even Manwë and Varda could figure out how to properly deal with that utter mess." I guess such hard feelings could heal over time. Galadriel had become humble by this point and would admit some guilt, in particular that following Feänor, she contributed to laying the foundations to much loss of life in Alqualondë and the Helcaraxe, even if she later tried to oppose the Kinslaying, and also that he idea to establish her own realm against the explicit command of Manwë was both foolish in the first place and failed in the end. Cirdan and Elrond could both convincingly argue that they had never done much evil, in particular had no part in Feänor's rebellion, but both had done huge amounts of work to help other elves of many kinds. Besides, i expect Manwë and Varda would intervene and ask both sides to try and understand each other and reconcile, as Eärendil had been forgiven before. But it's far from a foregone conclusion that sufficient understanding could indeed be reached among the now five distinctly different groups of elves in Aman: Vanyar, Tirion, Teleri, Eresseä, and the latest returners. On top of that, while most of the Eldar will return during the Fourth Age, not all will, and those who decide to still remain in Middle Earth will most definitely not reunite with the Vanyar - or with any of the elves of Aman for that matter. Your analysis that here we have a compelling argument for tolerance and cultural synthesis feels both original and convincing to me. But there is a flip side to this coin that you don't articulate as clearly: Sunderings are unavoidable, they always happen, and while some may be healed in time, not all will; some sunderings are likely to endure to the end of the world, and for Men, maybe even beyond that. There is no way back to paradise - or for the elves, to Cuiviénen. Apart from that: your video is a lovely summary containing a number of details i wasn't aware of. Thank you!

@istari0

10 ай бұрын

Well said but I do have a few points I'd like to raise. Galadriel was never a follower of Fëanor. She did want to return to Middle-Earth but that was to find a land of her own, not because she wanted any part of Fëanor's foolish quest for vengeance. Galadriel's mother was Teleri and in his later writings, Tolkien even wrote of her attempting to defend the Teleri from Fëanor's attack. The Elves who remained in Middle-Earth as of the beginning of the 2nd Age were in many ways refugees who were busy trying to establish themselves. I doubt they ever would have had the strength to single-handedly take on Sauron. Indeed, from my readings, I suspect the Elves did not realize that the foe they were facing was actually Sauron until he created the One Ring. Eru Ilúvatar intervened with the Númenoreans because he had forbidden the Valar to take direct action against the Children of Ilúvatar

@Pengalen

10 ай бұрын

Hey, they have 2 ages worth of stories to tell each other. That's an epic chin-wag that will cover many hard feelings.

@IngoSchwarze

10 ай бұрын

@@istari0 All great points, and i agree those are likely to help reconciliation when Galadriel, Gildor, and Elrond bring them up; Cirdan likely had no part in any of this in the first place. In particular, you are right that Galadriel did not swear Feänor's oath and it is highly unlikely that she helped him in the kinslaying; however, by following him on the way to Middle Earth, she also came under the Doom of Mandos. She was not his follower, yet she followed his host, and she did so against the explicit advice (and example) of both her father King Finarfin of Tirion and her grandfather King Olwë of Alqualondë. @Pengalen Indeed! Olwë is likely eager to hear the stories of his brother Elwë Singollo and his niece Luthien in more detail than Luthien's grandson-in-law Eärendil surely already told him, yet he is unlikely to enjoy them, but he will regard their ends as so sad as to be barely imaginable. It will likely only reinforce his feeling that remaining in Middle Earth, and ever more so returning thither, were extremely bad ideas. Regarding Finarfin, the same applies to the stories of his sons Finrod, Orodreth, Angrod, and Aegnor, his nephews Fingon and Turgon, his granddaughters Finduilas and Celebrian, his grand-nephews Gil-galad and Maeglin, and his great-granddaughter Arwen, all of whom perished in Middle Earth, most by being slain in various wars. To understand how much Finarfin lost, just consider that apart from his daughter Galadriel, his closest surviving kin are his great-grandsons Elladan and Elrohir...

@dandiehm8414

10 ай бұрын

@@IngoSchwarze "But Finrod walks with his Father Finarfin beneath the trees in Eldamar". Finrod was re-united with his Father in Valinor. It is to be thought that all the others you mentioned were eventually reunited as well - EXCEPT for Arwen. Finarfin never saw her, and he will never get to see her.

@IngoSchwarze

10 ай бұрын

@@dandiehm8414 Thanks for reminding me that it is not all that unusual for Elves to be released from the Halls of Mandos in order to continue their life in Valinor. I mislead myself by only cosidering the indeed unusual case of Glorfindel - but he is unusual only in so far as he was released back to Middle Earth rather than Valinor. Yes, your point makes reconciliation even more likely than i estimated above.

Great video as always! Was curious if you'd be interested in digging into the Druedain a bit. They appear only briefly in LOTR and are often overlooked but after decades of reading the books they are one of my favorite bits. Would be great to see you cover them!

@dandiehm8414

10 ай бұрын

Hello - Have you read Unfinished Tales? There's a whole chapter on their history in that book.

Excellent, I love your content

Thank you so much for your beautiful videos. I’m thoroughly enjoying watching them all. In addition to this history of the elves, might I request an overview of their different cultures? The elves of Mirkwood were described very differently than those of Lothlorian, for example. You touched on this in the beginning with the fair, wise, musical, and so on. I would love to know more about the culture of the elves that we see in LOTR and the hobbit. Thank you again.

For me, Tolkien's Elves is an homage to Scandinavian myths, but it's also an exercise: "What if Mankind weren't fallen?"

@Valleys56xx

10 ай бұрын

Mankind isn’t fallen unless you believe the Abrahamic myths of the real world.

@rafaelgustavo7786

10 ай бұрын

@@Valleys56xx But that is the Judeo-Christian "side" of the myth of the elves. They would be the children of light who were not deceived by the devilish figure that is Melkor. Read the Tale of Adanel. There is the story of the fall of humanity in Tolkien's version.

@Valleys56xx

10 ай бұрын

@@rafaelgustavo7786 only some of the Numenoreans are fallen in that case, the rest of mankind is not.

@rafaelgustavo7786

10 ай бұрын

@@Valleys56xx The Tale of Adanel version speaks of humanity awakening in the east. They hear a voice in their hearts. That voice is Eru. The voice asks humanity to develop and grow. Be free. It happens that a beautiful and luminous figure, full of jewels, appears to the Man and says that he is the Lord of the World. It is probably Melkor. This entity says that the Voice is the Darkness that will devour humanity unless Man accepts Melkor as God. Humanity accepts Melkor as Lord and accepts cruelty as their way of life. In this way, the Voice claims that humanity will not live forever, but will return to his Side after death. Death would be a punishment for the transgression, but also a gift from Eru so that humanity would not be trapped in the world. In this way, mankind fell. We lost our immortality, for example. A few rebelled against Melkor and fled to the West and encountered the Noldor in the Wars for the Silmarils.

@rafaelgustavo7786

10 ай бұрын

@@Valleys56xx i think that Númenor is a discussion about death x life x immortality x human nature. It's the story of Atlantis (Plato's The Republic) with a theological analysis.

Robert, thank you for yet again blowing us away with your skill and style, you sir are a master storyteller.

Not Jeff here. Since elves only die from battle or serious accident, is it possible that some of the first awakened are still hanging around where Cuivienen was? (It was destroyed by Melkor in the Years of the Trees)

@ciaranirvine

4 ай бұрын

Yeah the clear implication is that those original Avari are probably still around, though they would have "faded" long ago and be incorporeal spirits by now

Superb and insightful analysis, Robert. I must admit that in reading Tolkien I have tended to skip over a lot of his exposition of these points because I felt it didn't contribute much to the story. The kind of explanation you presented in this video is exactly what I needed to appreciate the material better, and I'm sure it will help the next time I read the Silmarillion. Thanks for all your efforts in researching and making these videos.

I've always been curious why Tolkien's elves are so different than those in many other stories - his are wise, ancient, and capable of kindness. other stories show them as chaotic, as likely to prank you as help you, and sometimes downright cruel without cause.

@thenathanimal2909

10 ай бұрын

Tolkien viewed human society as always degenerating. Perhaps that's why he fantasized of a race who didn't.

@jarlwilliam9932

10 ай бұрын

Tolkien’s elves depart greatly from pagan tropes which other fantasies use. The concept of Tolkien’s elves where based on prefall man from the Bible who never fell from the light of God.

@JN-so6wt

2 ай бұрын

@@jarlwilliam9932 ... which elves are you reading about who never fell from their gods? The Silmarillion alone... Also Tolkien detested allegory.

@jarlwilliam9932

2 ай бұрын

@@JN-so6wt All of them, gods? There is only one God in Tolkien and the elves only worshipped one God. Why do people keep bringing up that Tolkien hated allegory? He said it was okay for the author to use allegory but the reader did not get to claim allegory. The entire religious substructure of lord of the rings is Christian, Eru is the Christian God. Tolkien literally states this multiple times and even says at the beginning of the 7th age that Eru incarnates himself as Jesus Christ. As such all of the themes running in Lotr come from his own religion which he wrote into every facet of his work. The elves for instance where biologically the same race as men, Tolkien’s own words, the difference in their abilities comes from their souls, the souls of elves never fell from Eru’s grace while Men did, therefore men needed a savior, hence Eru becomes that savior in the 7th age of Arda. The age you’d currently be living in if Lotr was real.

I usually agree with you , but I think you focused a bit much on how these distinctions might not be all that important, which is true in that they are not absolutely unilateral, but the legacies of their distinct natures, actions, and histories is also important not to dismiss either. if anything, i think a quote on Aragorn might encapsulate a greater thematic tone “you are Isildur’s Heir, not isildur himself” it vindicates the importance of legacy, one is not separated from their origin, you are its progression, its heir, its apotheosis, but you are not it in a static form. Aragorn does take up Isildurs mantle as king, he does not shirk it, but he let go of the ring and frodo in a way isildur did not. Likeswise the Noldor ARE wise and powerful, and them laying eyes on the twin trees literally seems to have imparted them some sort of greatness that cannot be compared to the grey and dark elves, and this can lead to both great folly like the Sons of Feanor, but also great acts like Galadriel and their watch over Angband. Them being of the noldor is fundemental to their being, just as the Proud songs of the Sindar proclaim their own unique twilight existance of being half in communion with the valar that make them them. And these pieces of legacy do not die out, they are remembered and developed. They are intrinsic pieces that inform who they are. And as a side note, I remember the general atitude in the silmarillion on the dark elves being one more seeing them as scattered unfortunates and relative primitives rather than looking at them as moral lessers. Seeing how they weren’t taught and enriched by the very creators of the world. And this isnt meant to be disparaging, just different take, I really do enjoy these insightful videos.

Epic! We’ll done!

Oh yes. Love a good InDeepGeek video. Cheers! 🍻

I already know everything but I love to hear you talk

Nice work dude thanks

Cant forget the orcs, the poor elves kidnapped by servants of melkor from cuivinien before they were sundered to valinor

Well, that's that. Finally. Maybe now there'll be fewer barroom brawls and knifings now. I have lost count of how many Quendi/Noldor/Teleri based eye gougings I've been a part of. And I'm not proud of that.

@krischanlive

10 ай бұрын

We've all been there bro ;)

Great video! It helped with research for my video on Elven Genealogy that aims to map out over 30 different kinds of elves from different fantasy universes.

Normally I'm fine with the images and diagrams you include moving around, but here I was going dizzy trying to read those Venn diagrams and flow charts as they were moving around the screen in small circles!

Oh my I’ve waited for this video for so long hahahahaha

Elves are my favorite Fantasy Race. But as big as Lord of the Rings are in inspiring modern Fantasy games, I never got super into it. My favorite Elves are the ones in The Elder Scrolls.

The last few things you said got me thinking about the lore I made for my own version of elf characters a while ago. I never actually finished it, but I was planning on just having a main group of elves, and an "other" group being 12 or so smaller other groups assimilated into the main culture (I did also have light and dark but that was something kind of like right vs left handed). There would be different towns and customs based on location but as far as I had planned, no other ethnicities. The reason I brought this up is bc I'm Ashkenazi Jewish and live in America and until I saw this didn't realize how my experience and where I live shaped my world building so differently than Tolkien's. Sometimes I'll refer to catholics, protestants, mormons, episcopals, and even atheists whose heritage derives from one of those churches as just "Christians". Even though I know the difference, I'm far enough in the out group that I don't often feel the need to differentiate it, which is probably why I didn't think to break up the main elven culture in my own lore. Tolkien lived in England where a difference of just a few miles could mean a different accent, culture, and even ethnicity, so of course he had to create a new group of elves for every new place they inhabited. For me in the US, ethnicity is relatively consistent, there are just different concentrations in different places. That's why I didn't initially think that 2 civilizations of elves, even weeks away and having been separated for thousands of years, would lead to a split in ethnicities.

Well you see there's "Elves", and then there's _Elves_

You explain this a lot better than that other guy;)

Would love to hear your take on Sanderson's Stormlight Archives!

well done, m8. Thank you.

Great video on the elves. I would be very grateful if you wanted to make a video on the origin of elves in general before Tolkien. There's too many references to them in too many cultures going back at least centuries for Tolkien to have just invented them.

That description of elves' souls reminds me of how the Thalmor of Elder Scrolls lore view their connection to the world. Similar but with more resentment, it should be noted. So much so that they seek to destroy Nirn to free themselves from their bodies and return to a divine state. I would be willing to bet that whoever wrote that bit of TES lore was influenced by Tolkien elves.

Oh how I wish you would go into the deep lore of the Dune universe on this channel.

I wish a movie would be made, probably a trilogy, on the creation. This is such a great story with so many different cultures.

Where did the pointy ear thing come from? I've read the main books. ??

@FairbrookWingates

10 ай бұрын

Fairy legend and lore of real-world cultures, I imagine.

@Falcrist

10 ай бұрын

Interestingly, elven ears aren't actually described in the legendarium AFAIK. I believe Tolkien calls them "leaf shaped" in one of his letters, but that's pretty ambiguous. Just like Balrog wings, this topic has been debated... vigorously...

@istari0

10 ай бұрын

Depicting Elves as having pointy ears predates Tolkien so when artists started making drawing and paintings of Elves from Tolkien, they continued to do so. AFAIK, Tolkien never objected to it and I suspect he would have if he really had a problem with it.

@McJusti

10 ай бұрын

Movies also had to visibly differentiate elves from humans and while I think I've read somewhere that Tolkien didn't like the pointy ar concept, it was probably the easiest way and immediately understandable from the audience used to these types of portrayal

I am half way through The Silmarillion and i just realized something... I realized that i wasn't paying attention, so i am here now, for an easier digestion.

Are there no live streams on this channel any more?

At 4:22 you say all of the 144 firstborn elves were among the Avari, but it's also said that all of the Minyar accepted the summons of the Valar. Would that not include those among the Minyar that were firstborn?

As I try to follow this, I think of it in terms of an annotated "family" tree. Does anyone know of one?

Man loved them Elves

The Teleri: ‘I’m not sure about this tbf’

So many flavors of elves!

I wish you were into Warhammer 40k lore. I would love some of your discussions on different legions relationship to one and other but i dont think 40k has enough shadowy concealed motives as you like from GoTs or Tolkiens works

What was Tolkien's reference for the variety of types of elves?

JOIN us every THURSDAY @IDG LIVE here on KZread for the weekly LIVESTREAM at (5:00pm EST)!!!

I'm a bit new to the legendarium here. Would a human, upon seeing a Quendë for the first time, need to be told that it is a separate species in order to recognise it as such, or would it give off uncanny valley vibes like a WH40k Aeldari?

i would like to learn more about the avari and what they did through the ages

I think it should be specified that where the elves first woke up was actually a location in Middle Earth called Cuiviénen, and not the Undying Lands.

After reading this, I return to Sam's response about being asked what he thought of elves.... "Well there's elves...and then there's Elves, sir."

This description of Tolkiens Elves is just about as complicated as the Sumarian legends of the Annunaki history stuff I've been reading.

does anyone know where I can find those elven classification separation charts scattered across the video? it would be really helpful! thank

@GIDEONgame

Ай бұрын

They are usually put in back of more recent versions of The Silmarillian. I have a hard-copy that came with exactly that. You can probably find a PDF somewhere however.

In everquest gnomes are tinkerers, focusing mainly upon intelligence

I have listened to this about 8 times.......still befuddled. Love the mess.

My head hurts

I've always wondered what the dark elves did after Sauron's defeat, in the "age of men." They've lived in their lands, wherever they are, since the beginning of the first age, lived longer on their land than any other race besides the valar. Did they just leave to the west too? To a land they've only vaguely heard about tens of thousands of years ago? Of all the elves this must have been the most painful for them to go in the age of men.

5:23 ... "Its not today..."

Is it true that the High Elves were the ones who were keen on pipeweed?

@MitchTubeism

10 ай бұрын

*Bad-um-tish*

@spacemissing

10 ай бұрын

You may be joking, but Tolkien seems to have quietly suggested that no Elf ever smoked anything. Drinking --- different story, as we see when Bilbo and Thorin's company escape from Thingol's prison.

This felt like a college lecture

Omitting their kinslaying in the Undying Lands was a huge mistake. That's the most important and interesting event in their history.

@GIDEONgame

Ай бұрын

''We've had one kinslaying yes, but what about second kinslaying?''

the elves have always seemed celtic to me and the armies of man was the angles jutes and saxons as they are both germanic in origin but the celts came before and and the rest came after

You left out any mention of the Elves that never left Middle-Earth and were eventually doomed to fade away, becoming little more than disembodied spirits.

@McJusti

10 ай бұрын

Why did elves HAD TO escape Middle Earth in the first place? It can't be only the destruction of the One Ring, because they existed even before they created the magic of Three Rings. I recall that Lothlorien would fade away without the support of Galadriel's ring, but what about the elves themselves?

@istari0

10 ай бұрын

@@McJusti What Galadriel told Frodo was that even if Frodo succeeded in destroying the One Ring, the Elves in Middle-Earth would fade, not just Lothlórien. The Elves would have to go to the Undying Lands or fade away to disembodied spirits.

This one made my head spin. Oof!

4:01 WAIT WHAT? Is that canon? I must've missed this! Where is this from? So, is it effectively confirmed that Imin, Tata, and Enel, and their wives, all ended up Avari (or worse??) I think I read somethin about Imin, but nothing of the rest.