I can get pretty animated when it comes to defending Tolkien. But sometimes I wonder if the really ardent defense turns people off to Tolkien. I don't like calling people names--even when I disagree with how they're interpreting Tolkien (like I did with Jackson's films--and of course The Rings of Power)--because that just makes them indignant, and cuts off any real conversation that could be had. Now, that doesn't mean I won't call out falsehoods, political posturing, or just plain stupidity... I guess I just want to be careful when names start getting thrown around and it turns into personal ad-hominem attacks. Or am I wrong?

@Loftipixels

Жыл бұрын

Name calling is insane. "Shill" is a ridiculous slur tbh. Also, I don't think woke marketing is often directly linked to the actual content. We just saw this with House of Dragons. Not nearly as woke as people thought. We'll see soon enough how true to Tolkien they are with RoP.

@charlesstanford1310

Жыл бұрын

Focus on the actions: the mutilation of the lore already evident in the show. There's plenty of that to denounce, without trying to call anybody names.

@dw620

Жыл бұрын

Is it possible to be too purist? Christopher Tolkien disliked Peter Jackson's films but I also remember being distinctly unhappy about Christopher Tolkien releasing The Silmarillion "unauthorised" by JRRT and with his own additions to the narrative.

@draegore

Жыл бұрын

I heard somewhere that as soon as you start name-calling you have lost the argument.

@morbidone88

Жыл бұрын

Right and wrong. They started calling us bigots and racists. The conversation ended there and then, now it's just war, to hell with em

I think these arguments about "bringing more people in to Tolkien" doesn't stand up. The Lord of the Rings is one of the most read and most translated works of literature that has ever existed. It's already accessible and popular beyond the need to make it "accessible".

@unitedstatesofmordor

Жыл бұрын

Totally agree. It stands upon it's own merits. You cannot fix what is not broken.

@paolo74lfc

Жыл бұрын

I would also add that the only reason you would want to bring peoples attention to Tolkien is to point them towards his original works. With that being the case why wouldn’t you make it as close as possible to what is already established? Galadriel for example wouldn’t make sense to anyone who’s first experience of Tolkien was Rings of Power.

@TheGabsterRadioPodcast

Жыл бұрын

Damn straight. They use the same words to ruin other franchises, like that Halo TV show "we want to reach new audiences and be more accessible". They ended up completely destroying the essence of halo.

@garym6315

Жыл бұрын

I realised recently that this sort of "making it more accessible" only ends up making it less accessible. As you say, no-one ever had a problem accessing this, or Doctor Who, or Star Trek, or superhero genre, as they were made for everyone. But the second you start catering to one specific audience, you are making a clear line in the sand between the old version and the new. Fans of the first female Doctor Who are not the sort of people who would then go back and watch the 1960s black and white episodes, and fall in love with Patrick Troughton's performance. They are attracted to the show because of the reasons the showrunners give them to be attracted to it - trans, Muslim and lesbian rights. They're attracted to that and instantly hate what came before because they see it as intolerant. Modern Star Trek that focuses on feelings is gonna appeal to those fans and they're not going to want to watch the older stuff. So it's not we classic fans who are creating this divide, it is the showrunners who are creating this line in the sand by simply saying "our version is better, and the way it always should have been." The kind of people attracted solely by Sophie Nomvete or Ismael's social justice speeches aren't going to want to read the "old fashioned outdated" writings that we all love.

@therra1101

Жыл бұрын

@@garym6315 Exactly. They basically say it needs to be fixed and we are the right peole to fix it. So all the thousands of people all around the world who have loved the books for decades are wrong or what? And people can´t enjoy and appreciate a book unless there is someone exactly like Nomvete in it? It all doesn´t make sense and actually goes against representation because everything then ends up looking exactly the same.

It began with the forging of the great films. Threads were given by Tolkien, immortal, wisest and fairest of all beings. Rights were granted to Jackson, great miner and craftsman of the mountain of lore. And nine, nine hours were gifted to the race of men, who above all else, desire quality. But they were all of them deceived, for another show was made. In the Land of Amazon, in the fires of Mount Prime, the Dark Lord Bezos forged in secret a massive flop. And into this show he poured his money, his greed and his will to dominate all film. One film to ruin them all, one film to bind them, in the Land of Amazon where the shadows lie.

@humphrey4976

Жыл бұрын

This is beautiful

@n0namesowhatblerp362

Жыл бұрын

Absolutly brilliant!

@captainfighter7666

Жыл бұрын

You are everywhere

@captainfighter7666

Жыл бұрын

You should change the greed into Wokeness

@flackoprettyboy1208

Жыл бұрын

Amazing

The word I'd use is respect. Changing something because you can't pull off sticking it all in the limited number of hours of film can be annoying, but it can at least be done with respect. But changing something because you don't think its modern enough is not respectful at all. And its ignoring what makes it 'timeless' to start with. This is true of any timeless tale. Modernizing it takes away the very thing that made it lasting. And there were ways to make a more diverse group of characters without altering who was already written. We know some of the characters, Aragorn, Gandalf etc went South and East on adventures. Sam pondered if the Haradrim had truly wanted to go to war. They could've done it without altering existing characters. Instead, they could've used them to explore farther. The sad thing is, so many of us have been through this with our fav stories. It's hit so many. Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who, various fantasy stories (Narnia tried and fell apart by the third film) Yet when it moves on to the next fav story that fan base often just refuses to heed the warning.

@unitedstatesofmordor

Жыл бұрын

Well said.

@theophrastus2766

Жыл бұрын

Having every character white, its timeless. White people are timeless. It's right there in the books!

@larsbaer3508

Жыл бұрын

there are ways to retell a story with different takes on it ,... if you can understand the essence of it and keep it the same .... but this is not what they did .... they did not create a similar story about good and evil ... they just ripped the heart of the story out and put their politics in it and patched it with a lot of cgi ...

@therra1101

Жыл бұрын

@@larsbaer3508 Exactly. There are so many modern takes on classics. The good ones work because they kept the essence of the story and the characters. And because they don´t claim to be a faithful adaptation. But it is also stories that have been seen for a very long time. You can do stuff to Shakespeare, because it´s theater and you have a lot more leeway there. It doesn´t work for Tolkien because of the nature of the story.

@rebeljedaii2571

Жыл бұрын

@@theophrastus2766 There were darker characters south and east. and PLENTY of potential for telling them because we know the wizards and Aragorn went that way. No contradictions needed. Sam even wondered what made them leave and come to fight for Saruman. Were they forced? The stories are those of the heart and have nothing to do with color. But this tale was set (according to it's author) in England. You want not white people? What, the people of India and Africa have no great stories to tell? I don't know they don't. I DO know Hollywood refuses to tell them. Seems to me it's insulting for Hollywood to take from another people and lazily swap out instead of giving those of other people's a chance. Stories that surely exist, even ones that might have been handed down verbally.

I remember hearing a comment from Fran Walsh I believe it was. She said something to the effect of her, Peter Jackson and Philippa Boyen tried to adjust parts of the story to better fit the film medium but it caused continuity issues later in the narrative. They did this several times and each time found that it worked better to just remain as close as possible to Tolkien because he, in his excellence, had thought of everything already. In the end something's were changed, but it was the minimum needed to make the timeless tale into a worthy film.

@wd2989

Жыл бұрын

I remember that. It’s in “the making of” videos in the DVD.

I think Amazon just wanted to check all the boxes for what a casual fan of PJ's movies think of when they think LOTR. So that would mean it has to include: hobbits being unlikely heroes - check a wizard - check a balrog - check a fellowship - check races coming together to defeat evil - check and then on top of that they also had to consider how to tell the story in such a way so they could fit their diversity quota policy.

@Thor-Orion

Жыл бұрын

I think it's more insidious than that, but I could be wrong. Jeff Bezos wanted his own Game of Thrones. Well, Tolkien is NOT Martin and their works are fundamentally different. So we're going to get Tolkien's work attempted to be rewritten in a Martin style while cramming as much intersectional identitarian garbage as possible into it.

The chanel Living Anachronism just put out a call to arms to Tolkien fans : you should watch it. I'm one of those problematic fans. I read the Hobbit to my little brother, he read it to his children. All read the Lord of the Rings when they grew up. To me it is the tradition Tolkien envisioned, not a franchise to be mined and altered.

If I become a new fan because of this new Rings of Power series, and then decide to read the books, I probably would be like WTF...

@davidmorris2219

Жыл бұрын

And those unfamiliar with Tolkien who hate RoP will probably be put off reading the books. This abomination could do a lot of damage to Tolkien's legacy, which is exactly what they want.

@sattoriemei3210

Жыл бұрын

@@davidmorris2219 I bet their next move is to rewrite the books, ie adaptation of the TV series...

the movie Clueless was a modern-day interpretation of Jane Austen's classic "Emma"; the movie 10 Things I Hate About You was a modern-day interpretation of Shakespeare's "The Taming of the Shrew". those were both wildly successful because they were unique and done with respect and love for the source material. they were well-done and creative and wonderful storytelling. the ROP is none of that.

I was first brought into the fandom by the Peter Jackson films. But what cemented my love for Tolkien’s works was the audiobooks narrated by Rob Ingles. Then what drove me to become a fanatic was the audiobook of The Children of Húrin narrated by Sir Christopher Lee! It felt like Saruman was giving me a history lesson on Middle Earth!

P.s. the Amazon series is so far out of pocket that it isn’t even Tolkien anymore. It’s so changed that anyone who “loves” the series and wants to explore Tolkien further might very well NOT like the books. They have been sold a bill of goods that does *not* match the cargo🤷

@seregrian5675

Жыл бұрын

And there is a very good point: it's an ideological bait-and-switch. "What, the author wasn't diverse!? This is trash!!!"

@GreatGreebo

Жыл бұрын

@@seregrian5675 Exactly.

If I wanted trite mindless entertainment, superheroes and nacho cheese sauce, there is plenty of dreck to choose from. With Tolkien I expect only the highest of caliber. I'm not catching any such vibe of that from this.

@unitedstatesofmordor

Жыл бұрын

That said, I disagree with there needing to be any measure of courtesy afforded to what might yet amount to a flagrant act of veiled mockery and outright lies. That's not to say that the upcoming series is not something worth watching, if made to stand upon it's own merits, but to attach a well respected name (and rich mythos) to something, only to proceed to twist it into the service to something of far lesser stature, and to do it intentionally, is nothing short of a act of blasphemous malice. It would be like insisting that an orc, is no different than an elf.

@SugerSprinkledFun

Жыл бұрын

@@unitedstatesofmordor Galadriel did that. She called Elrond an orc TWICE in the first episode.

They have a show which will likely cost over $1 billion, a company which is one of the world's most valuable brands, more than 200 million subscribers worldwide, select critics almost unanimously loved it, a media army which already announced the show as a 'huge success' and millions of normies who react to the show like the people who saw the first motion picture ever shown. They have a huge 'power' behind this show but they complain about KZreadrs breaking down everthing wrong with the Rings of Power. They want them to be silenced! Please don't get silenced! We will support you as long as it lasts.

@jseels

Жыл бұрын

Or they just want people to give it a chance before it’s even out? Just a thought…

@markholohan4446

Жыл бұрын

A company who treats its workers like shit is not a company I have any faith in.

@Thor-Orion

Жыл бұрын

@@markholohan4446 there was a video game that Amazon released not too long ago called New World. Beautiful graphics, competent enough gameplay, but devoid of the things that make MMORPGs beloved by fans of the genre. Amazon fundamentally doesn't understand art and artistic mediums. Jeff Bezos ONLY understands money because it's been his only obsession his entire life. He thinks art is something that can come from pushing more money than God at it. That's a fundamental misunderstanding of what makes good art beloved. There's no passion or love in anything they make. We will get more disposable media that we've been seeing piles of over the past decade. Turn off your brain and consuuuuuuuuume. That is what this is made for. The problem is that this is diametrically opposite of what Tolkien's works are. And they are exactly what you would expect someone like Bezos to have created. He's like a wealthy patron who doesn't understand art and so he hires non-artists to make his commissioned piece, since he can't tell the difference.

Great work guys, keep defending Tolkien. It's our duty as the faithful followers of his lore to stand up to this nonsense! I started reading Tolkien in the 80s and my view of Tolkien is not shaped by PJ's LOTR trilogy.

The comparison between ROP Galadriel and Jar Jar Binks was very funny. Thanks.

"There's nothing you can say to someone who's suppressing the truth of Tolkien in their unrighteousness" - great quote guys! You pretty much called the key determining factor for what decides the main split among fans: those who read the books first, and those who saw the PJ films first; there's always exceptions, but I'd bet that's the dividing line.

@Thor-Orion

Жыл бұрын

I read the books first, but I didn't fall in love with his works until the movies (I was 11 when the Fellowship film was released, so the visual medium really appealed to my younger mind) but I recognize what this crap is. I think the dividing line is those who have READ Tolkien and those who have not, honestly. Those who are strictly fans of the movies. There's a huge problem in my generation where they simply do not read.

Thank you, Gentlemen, for standing for Truth and for source material. Let’s be real, here: Tolkien wrote and approached his story with much greater intensity and focus than the apostle Paul write his *genuine* letters. (Several of Paul’s “epistles” have, by scholars, been proven pseudonymous. Source-material is crucial. And, unlike Paul’s letters and bits, we have (in our own lifetimes) complete evidence of Tolkien’s hand and Tolkien’s underlying opinions, Tolkien’s love-of-detail. And thanks for uplifting the word “virtue”. It all truly boils-down to: Is this a labor of Love? or not?

Tolkien IS worth defending. His work has been respected, even revered, by millions around the world for decades and has had a much greater influence than many realise, even inspiring both individuals and countless other works. . And yet Amazon want to twist that into something else. They want to turn it into their version of Game of Thrones. Except the Game of Thrones (or rather, the Song of Ice and Fire, that it was adapted from) was DELIBERATELY intended to be the OPPOSITE of the Lord of the Rings. Does anyone at Amazon actually READ? We've seen this, time and time again with IPs where the source material is deliberately ignored in favour of someone's personal tastes. And I've had enough. I KNOW what's coming. We've all seen it before. That's how we got the franchise-wrecking Star Wars sequels. And Ghostbusters 2016. What I don't get is how you can spend a billion dollars to the rights to a franchise. And then immediately throw ALL the canon into the trash. And then try to sell the resulting crackfiction as a 'Tolkien' series. Not in a million years. We KNOW what a Tolkien series DOESN'T look like. RESPECT THE LORE

@Thor-Orion

Жыл бұрын

They want to destroy European culture. It's pretty obvious. Watch some Douglas Murray interviews and maybe read his books. He understands what is happening better than any other intellectual other than maybe Peterson.

@Thor-Orion

Жыл бұрын

Oh, and this is the company that made New World. Hugely popular at launch. Dead within half a year. They make disposable media. Well, Tolkien isn't disposable.

Great discussion! Thank you for the video. This topic needs to be discussed openly and explained adequately to the Average Joe. Nobody will know what they are missing out on from bad adaptations if the real *Tolkien fans* don’t speak up. From my experience, the group that is not engaging in civility during their social discourse tends to be the people who love the Amazon series and all the changes. There was neither a lively debate to be had nor even a semblance of civility. The language being vehemently thrown out indicated they weren’t even listening to the words being spoken to them. It was instant *anger* , name calling and even threats. Once again, *EXCELLENT CONVERSATION* . Cheers and thank yOU🤘. *My Take* : The Amazon series is so far out of pocket that it is not Tolkien, at all. It’s so changed that anyone who “loves” the series and wants to explore Tolkien further probably will NOT like the actual books. They have been sold a bill of goods that does *not* match the cargo🤷 Many of the pro-Amazon people I’ve been in discussions with, they showed up with a presupposed agenda and world view if that makes sense?!?…. The amount of cognitive dissonance that should be happening (but isn’t) was very telling IMO.

ROP, definitely is bringing me to the books.... I've been reading Beren and Luthien from my library and I just got my copy (not from Amazon) of The Silm, illustrated by Ted Nasmith. I'm not watching the show. I'm just using this affront to Tolkien as the push I needed to tackle his deeper works.

@seregrian5675

Жыл бұрын

And you will enjoy the deep dive, mellon nin!

I’ll be as respectful to RoP as the creators are to Tolkien. The ball is in their court. 🤷🏻‍♀️ 🙏✌️❤️

I think that you gentlemen make a mistake by comparing the backlash against Sonic the Hedgehog’s creepy first digital iteration to the backlash against the Rings of Girl Power. Jordan Petersen likes to say that good fiction is more real than real. Sonic neither attains that, nor pretends to. However, Tolkien’s art *does* attain that level of excellence. Therefore, the outrage that the readers feel over the desecration of something true and beautiful and worthwhile, like coming upon a slaughtered unicorn in the forest, is of a different type and incurs different reactions from the desecrators.

Well done, guys. No one doubts YOUR passion. You're amusing, as well.

We don't need to "bring more people in to Tolkien". His works have been bringing people in all by their own merits for years and years, and will continue to do so!

split into two camps. Camp 1 (people with no standard and will eat up anything with the name brand they like on it, no matter how distrustful it is) Camp 2 (people who care enough to respect the art of said brand and would like to see it preserved or expanded RESPECTFULLY) This applies to most modern works using recognizable IPs Starwars, Jurassic Park, Ghost Busters, Predictor, some will eat the slop because it was stamped with the brand logo, others will feel disrespected that this brand they have kept alive (the reason these companies even want the IP) is being used to make a quick buck off our love for the IP, while simultaneously dragging the IP through the dirt.

I wish the forums were back online and all ready for the show impact. Let it be a refuge etc.

We should all be proud to be called gatekeepers ✊

@davidllamas2192

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, but we need to gain alies. We need to be smart. Give them nothing to use against us

Exactly, you cannot 'win' people over to a works by deceiving them as to the nature of those works. The people that will like the popcorn Rings of Power are NOT the people that would appreciate the legendarium, lets be honest here. They are trying to change the perception of Tolkien's works, not honour them.

When Sauron asked Galadriel for her license and she responded with "My license? It's on the bumper, man, back there, man!"... OMG talk about epic!

"Our hearts smell as bad as our feet."

It seems to me Amazon used Fëanor as a template for their Galadriel. Based on the trailers, Amazon Galadriel is a warrior, driven by wrath and consumed by vengeance. She commits both of Fëanor’s more egregious sins in the snow scene by abandoning her fellow elves to die,(like a kin-slaying and ship burning all in one). The “tempest inside her” lol seems to be a cringe variation to Fëanor’s fire. I wouldn’t be surprised if Amazon Galadriel is also a craftsman and makes a Palantir in the series. Of course replacing Galadriel’s persona with Fëanor’s completely shatters the original story, plus the really bad dialogue we have heard so far, this spells disaster.

We need to be smart. We can't remain angry, they will use It against us

The Thing We Must Not Mention: Elves and Dwarves ARE races. Why would they have human racial charactaristics? The humans in Tolkien have racial differences, dark skinned to the south, olive skinned to the east. They are humans, they have these characteristics. Elves and dwarves are not human. The Lord of the Rings took place in a kind of prototypical England. Making this "look like the modern world" is a very strange way to approach Tolkien. I'm racist you say. How so? Am I opressing Elves and Dwarves of color? If so I offer them my sincerest appologies.

@SugerSprinkledFun

Жыл бұрын

Only Hobbiton was supposed to represent England, an England of Tolkien's youth. It's not true that Tolkien said his work was supposed to be a mythology for England. He said it was an initial ambition but that his world grew far beyond the bounds of England and even Europe. MIddle Earth is Earth! It's a story of the creation of life on earth and it's history. It's a world history.

The argument that RoP could pull people into Tolkiens work could also be the same reason it pushes people away. Like it or not, this adaption could be an introduction into the world of Tolkien for the next generation of fantasy lovers. I pity those who were handed these stories on film or in this case tv. The books require more commitment and effort and thus more respect and time. Could you imagine being a 15 year old kid searching to scratch that fantasy itch and have this amazing story tainted. Respect the source material and the people who elevated the story to a status of justifying the $1bil investment to adapt it to tv.

@skyintatters

Жыл бұрын

"No matter what, the show will bring more people to the books", although the show is even less like the books than the movies were. So what will someone who liked the show get out of the books when he or she sees how different it is and most characters from the show aren't in them?

I don't think you go far enough. Getting caught up in semantics, especially. Bad behavior should be called out and if that means calling a person who is obviously shilling a shill, then that's what we have to do. I'm glad the three of you are on here doing what you're doing.

@makerealitygreatagain8809

Жыл бұрын

The cast and producers should be put on death row.

The ugly thing is that if they wanted to do a diverse story in phantasy land why they needed to buy the rights from Talkin Estate.... they could've written whatever story they wanted and nobody would care, but they needed the "lord of the rings" name just for name recognition, to ensure some viewership. They were not trying to bring new people to the Tolkien's work, but to use Tolkien 's name to bring more people to them. And that is why they were saying all the time "we want to be faithful ti the original matirial" ....

Theres no hope for this show. It couldnt spit in the face of tolkien any further

I got into Lord of the Rings before the films, which is unusual because I was 11 when Fellowship hit theaters. It was awesome seeing it on the screen for young me, and I felt like it was similar enough in the ways that mattered and above all you could feel the respect, reverence and LOVE that Peter Jackson had for Tolkien's work. This show is disrespectful to Tolkien in every way. They are changing things that do not need to be changed, and I feel like it's intentional. I feel like they are inverted his work in a way to disrespect him and his work and everything it stood for.

To all Lord of the Rings fans and to all who respect life's work of JRR Tolkien! I ask you not to watch new series on September 2nd, but instead read any Tolkien's book, and post a picture, or upload a video, make a live stream of you reading it. Use any and all of your social media accounts to share with the world your love and respect for professor Tolkien's work. Use hashtag defendingtolkien so at the end of the day, we will know how many of us are there, and we will show the evil lords are not falling for their lies and deceptions! Share this with your friends, and let's make our stand!

I would paraphrase the definition of term Adaptation: "Adaptation of a film, television drama or play that is based on a particular book or play means that the source itself has been changed only to suit the new MEDIUM". So, it is about Medium, and not about new messages, whatever they could be. What PJ did was something that has to be done in order that movie get proper pacing and connection with the general story. However, his creative team never imposed modern politics or events into it. PJ strived to be true to the spirit of the Tolkien's myths (even in Hobbit movies! I know, this is heresy to some 😉). That is the difference between PJ and Barad-Amazon production. Therefore, a desecration will never be an adaptation, no matter how much Amazon tries to straw-man the critics and name-call them. Protecting Tolkien's literary works and any work for that matter should be an imperative for every true linguist, bibliophile, aesthete or admirer.

Tolkien you have my bow

My reaction to the Peter Jackson LoTR films was: At first: "Well, that's it. This is The Definitive film adaptation. It's perfect. It will never need to be done again." But then on further reflection: "...Unless, maybe, it could get done by someone who doesn't think they're supposed to be 'Action Movies'?" (And that was before he did the Hobbit movies!)

It is a great discussion. Thanks!

19:28 - "There is nothing you can say to someone who is suppressing the truth of Tolkien in their unrighteousness." I think kids today call that a "mic drop".

There were some big missteps, Tolkienwise, in Jackson’s LOTR. But when he captured the beauty and the heart, he did it well. Some changes were jarring…compressing the time between Bilbos birthday and Frodo leaving with the ring, Filmamir, making Lembas , which for Tolkien had sacred significance, into a joke…all that was far from Tolkien. But there were incredibly beautiful parts as well. I’m very leery of the Amazon show. But it may do the same. Jackson really really was not the perfect translator of the books to film. But some things he did beautiful,y.

@therra1101

Жыл бұрын

Well said.

May I recommend Disparu. His latest vid about an LA Times article and ROP is extremely illuminating. Basically their aim is to degrade, ridicule then replace because their world view is far, far removed from Tolkien.

Jar Jar always sucked, but I was like 9 or 10 when Phantom Menace came out and I loved it. I grew up on The Original Trilogy, but Phantom Menace was great for young fans to experience in theaters. Then it got more mature for the Attack of the Clones. As those who were kids for Phantom Menace grew up that trilogy matured with them, and so for someone like me, I've loved all 6 movies made by Lucas. And Darth Maul was ALWAYS badass.

Tolkien was not generic fantasy. It was exceptionally detailed. "Inclusion" could have still happened, humans in Tolkien were diverse as we're wizards. Strong women also abound, but not their definition. What they want is to destroy and corrupt and need our participation or silence. I will never watch it and will continue to read the books.

To quote the third best Starfleet Captain "we draw the line here, no further!"

Theres a few things few small things id probably argue Michael on which funnily enough Jonathan brought up a little bit of but its always enjoyable to hear his perpectives. One thing i will mention is what will be the outcome of this very blatantly malicious twisting of the Legendarium. Will it just be a another desecrated ip added to the piles destroyed by current year cultists and then fade into obscurity (like Eragon) or will there be a zeitguest that will mark the begening of the return of excellence to ones work.

I'll just say I was not a huge fan but I've always been a big fan of The Lord of the Rings .. read the books numerous times love the extended version of the trilogy and even enjoyed the Hobbit trilogy tho not near the production of the original three .. there were clearly some differences from the books and the movies I don't know if you'll ever get away from that totally but Peter Jackson's vision was magnificent and again like I said especially the extended version .. I in fact just watched the original versions on Prime and I can tell you , you notice the difference considerably even after years since I've watched the extended version .. but like everything it seems nowadays these studios hire people who have no idea about the stores they're being asked to produce and they come up with cluster Fucks and wonder why people get pissed off at it all .. these arrogant Fucks think they can feed us s*** and we're going to eat it and like it .. how many more of these franchise stories are they going to destroy before they realize ain't happening ever.. and who can be identified as idiots for continually trying .. just saying 🖖 .. Think I'll go listen to Led Zeppelin IV ..

@Thor-Orion

Жыл бұрын

Your first sentence is a little puzzling. What do you mean you weren't always a huge fan... but were a big fan? It's contradictory, so I'm just trying to understand that sentence.

@stanclare7758

Жыл бұрын

@@Thor-Orion a huge fan in my mind is someone who dresses up and goes to Comic-Con type events joins discussion platforms and read every thing ever written by Tolken .. big fan .. read the three books watched the 6 movies numerous times and bought the extended versions and comment on them once in a while ..

One of the problems with RoP bringing in new fans to Tolkien is exactly as you said - it’s what they lure them TO. And what they’re lured to is not reflective of the source material. With PJ’s films you could watch them, become interested in Tolkien, buy the books and read them, and yes, you’ll find many changes. BUT you will recognize the actual story and themes and see the adaptation aspects. With RoP, new interest in Tolkien will have people buying The Silmarillion, starting to read it and wondering where all the amazing battle scenes of Galadriel are, and where Halbrand is, and where the Arondir and Bronwyn love story is, where the Harfoots and Meteor Man are. It will be a massive disconnect from the story and thus will just turn them off. The question then remains - will they opt to continue with the written work and become more steeped in actual Tolkien, or will they close those books and write them off as “too stuffy and hard to read” and forever stick with RoP as their access point? Defending it is absolutely worth it. Tolkien’s work is timeless and beautiful and majestic and rich. And people should be embracing THAT and not shoddy tv productions.

On the question of taking away from future adopters of the work. I mean part of it is how unfaithful or faithful something is. In this case the show runners have been pretty clear that they version of the second age we are getting is their modernized version which is how they imagine the world would look like if it their "modern" issues and values were represented by various characters in the Lotr universe. That makes it clear I think then that these characters may share only a name with Tolkien's work and nothing else. Especially Galadriel being one of the most egregious cases of this. So to answer that point with a question, how is this any different from a strawman? Regardless of which way it goes a new adopter would be watching a new IP. That would be fine if it just didn't use the name LOTR or Tolkien to try to sell it. In truth this series from the media so far comes off more like a more Sci-Fi network higher Fantasy Game of Thrones. Not to bash Sci-Fi network, some of their shows are good, but you can always tell a fantasy show from Sci-Fi network.

I also didn´t like many of the changes in the movies, but in the end the movies are perfect because they keep the messages and we can see that with the dialogues in many scenes, the problem was the Hobbit movies because they got too many of those changes and the quality drop a lot, but they are better than ring of power.

Nixxiom had a different take on the argument which was quite refreshing, The Tolkien Argument Against Amazon's "LotR: The Rings of Power". It is well worth the watch

Gentleman of The One Ring there’s some good in this world, and it’s worth fighting for. Tolkien is worth fighting for. We will continue to reject Amazon's Rings of Power by defending the Tolkien Legendarium.

Its a simple thing. When we read Tolkien we escape into a world that is so detailed and real. The way it was put together and the characters is something very special. If you look at a great car or a painting you understand the artwork and effort put in to producing it. Then somebody sticks a cock n balls on it and its just not the same. So we defend the original material.

Being Gamma Fence Sitters like you boys are is how we got to this point!!!! The tragedy of this is from the total lack of awareness of the works of Tolkien and why they ARE a global success. Not only was Tolkien a writer but also a scholar.He weaved his tales with grace and humility. The themes he entrenched in them are timeless. The so called 'updating' for a modern generation is hubris from this motley collection of egotists. They do not care of the art created by Tolkien nor the inspiration it has given millions since its release. Tolkien did not write this on a whim. He did not write this as a vehicle for future hacks to revel and glorify in. He created an epic of monumental proportions. He fleshed out each character, land, being and belief with careful detail. He made a human a tale to last the ages. He took inspiration from the Eddic Sagas of Iceland, the early Proto-English and Germanic works of Beowulf, Sigurd and Kelluvor. He combined them with his faith. He made a concept the Mammon inspired hacks of Amazon could not hold a light to. They cannot wield the prose of Tolkiens words so they attempt to dilute and divest it. They cannot generate the imagination he beheld of the light his words emanated, so they try and hide it in their shade of corpulences. Their self aggrandizing natures show them to be more akin to the works of Morgoth rather than the Valar. They corrupt the elves as Melkor did to create the orcs. They twist the stories to suit their own foolish means. They care little for the future as they can only see themselves in the present. In this darkest of hours we can only wait for the rising of the dawn when the light of good shall prevail on these minions of the dark. Standing firm in this last bastion of the believers in Tolkiens work we can but hope the light will shine again. Stand with Me and Millions of other Tolkienian Fans around the world as we boycott this Garbage into Oblivion!!!! If you’re gonna watch it… Pirate it!!!

@RoyCyberPunk

Жыл бұрын

Amen.

I was kind of thinking about this same thing and a great scene came to mind from the anime one piece. The scene is in the water 7 arc it is where the crews pirate ship is damaged and they go to get it fixed and are told that the hull the core of the ship is damaged and the only way to fix it is to take apart the entire ship replace the hull and put it back together. The shipwrights told them by the time you do that it will be an entirely different ship so you might as well just get a new ship. That is the same thing with not just lotr but every thing . If you change Tolkien's world to be more like GOT well you might as well start With GOT or make something new because Tolkien isn't GOT. If you want something reflective of the modern world make something new that fits that . Lotr is what is , middle earth is what is , to completely overhaul the story to something different you might as well start off new because it isn't Tolkien, it isn't lotr and it isn't middle earth. Say what you will about the Jackson films , yes he made tweaks , left things out and added things here and there but the core of the stories are still there.

@Thor-Orion

Жыл бұрын

That story is the Ship of Theseus paradox. It's an extremely well known thought experiment.

If the actors and executives would shut up it would help. Every time they speak it's apparent that tolkien isn't in their top 10 things they're thinking about with this show. It's a job and property to most of these people.

It's like having the cartoon series of Sherlock Holmes as an anthropomorphic dog or cat or whatever. Its "inspired by" but clearly not adapting the actual Conan Doyle work. I guess the difference is, Amazon are trying to convince people that this IS part of Tolkien's writings.

You have to consider the audience the rings of power is geared towards - those are not people that become ‘fans’ of any franchise. They’re making rings of power for the activist/narcissist. There is no loyalty there… it’s an empty platitude. Maybe they can cultivate a few fans out of it but I’m confident they will be fans of rings of power… not Tolkien

So they're saying there is a difference between adaption, fan-fiction and buying a popular IP to sell a message that is not part of the source material. It seems Amazon chose door number three, so: Can they still deliver a good untold story redefining the rules of a world they bought? Can they do good character development of already established figures? Will their message be appealing to new audiences? Can they be successful by going against the expectations of a big fanbase from the original material?

You can’t say Peter Jackson’s love for Tolkiens books wasn’t apparent in all of his movies. Regardless of how successful he was in faithfully adapting the books on the screen. I can’t see the love of the books at all in the Amazon series. It’s as if they hate the original material.

as an Asian , I really like watching the original Vikings tv series, really enjoy following the story of Ragnar Lothbrok and his descendants. I don't need to see my self there or being represented to be able to enjoy it.

Those of us who love the books (might) want to see the stories we have read adapted to the screen. Amazon does not have the rights to tell these stories. I will watch but if I had to bet on myself, I would go with under 4 episodes.

Funny to talk about midichlorians, but mithril healing elves from dying is MUCH worse because it contradicts written lore vs explaining something.

If I had my way I would try to urge Amazon with boycotts to stop this now, apologize, buy the rights to the new fall of Numenor and start anew. Sack Simon Tolkien for Tom Shippey,say sorry to Peter Jackson, for how he was treated and ask him to help write a series with Tolkiens values in it.

Well said guys!!!l

I’m not a huge Tolkien lore expert, but is seems the Rings of Power is not only destroying Tolkien’s 2nd age, but the 1st age as well, I didn’t see that coming at all! The Kinslaying, Giant Spider drinking the light from the trees, Silmarils, Oath Of Fëanor, etc. they are not using and don’t seem to care about any of the Lore that comes before their show takes place! I didn’t think they would go that far!

Why does Tolkien needs defending? His work speaks for himself. No one can tell his story like he did so hopefully people will want to read the books and discover how far better is his story telling. He did though say in an interview he would not not want people being cultists about his creation.

👏 Bravo Bravo...absolutely! And we extend the invite: Join us for our release of"Exsurge Tolkien" our Official Encyclical in defense of Professor John Ronald Reuel Tolkien's Legendary Middle Earth Mythology. It is one of the most comprehensive responses "The Rings of Power" Heresy. #TolkienOrthodoxy

Instead of doing their own story inside of Middle Earth like the Mandalorian in Star Wars or focusing on a smaller scale story in lore like the upcoming War of the Rohirrim, Amazon is superimposing their own story on the established main story lore changing it, warping it so much that it's become their own original work larping as Tolkien. They had a good story already. All they had to do was flesh out the lore into a dramatic narrative but they wanted their own story.

@Thor-Orion

Жыл бұрын

They wanted Game of Thrones. That's well established.

A movie is entertaining but we are not seeing through our own eyes but through the eyes of the director.

@celozzip

Жыл бұрын

yeah it surprises me when i think back about scenes in a book i just read that i can see it like i must've watched it in a film, then i think "oh yeah i kinda directed the film in my head didnt i"

For all that the Peter Jackson films changed, I still feel like they got the core stuff right. It was Tolkien's worldview that came through, and its what drew me to really start exploring the legendarium when I finally started to pick up on some of the deeper themes in the story. Compare that to what message we're seeing in the ROP trailers, so much is the antithesis of everything Tolkien was trying to say. That's what offends me the most about the show.

That's the thing - we're NOT seeing more characters by Tolkien. It's the "book that Tolkien never wrote," remember?

If Bezos wanted a Hit Fantasy series they could have just done a decent job of Wheel Of Time.

Expecting authenticity from Hollywood adaptations automatically opens you up to being called racist. As we all know, Tolkien was an expert on Norse and British mythology and his Middle Earth stories were his interpretation of those myths. Making the stories "inclusive" sort of misses the whole point.

@sharpienate

Жыл бұрын

Please explain how a real human actor (i.e. not a fictional being) with slightly more melanin in their skin, ruined your experience of Tolkien's mythological stories presented on screen. Elaborate in detail how that narrow and specific circumstance "missed the whole point" of a fictional story for YOU personally.

On the topic of fan fiction.. Can a story that is only pays lip service to a setting or IP or even which disrespects it, or seeks to reinvent it, even be termed a fan fiction. Surely a fan of a property would have more respect for it?

If Rings of Power brings people in, it's an ersatz interest and no different than someone getting into Tolkien because they have an interest in Dungeons & Dragons. It's about the integrity of the source, to me.

Peter Jackson's movies brought me to Middle Earth right after college. And I fell in love with the books. I picked apart the movies, griped about character changes, and learned to write/read elvish, and got every Tolkien book I could get my hands on. Sadly, I don't think RoP will have the same effect on the current generation. They will like the look, the action the costumes, the music... but the writing...? At least the LOTR series had the advantage of being able to pull almost ALL the dialog right from the books. The quality of the storytelling and the dialog in RoP is my biggest disappointment. Certainly Tolkien intended for others to follow and tell more stories. But the implication is that they do it WELL, and within the "canon" of what he created. There's a reason why Tolkien was named the greatest fantasy writer of the 20th century. He had the linguistic and story-telling chops to create an amazing world, and labored over it for decades. The idea that they could find writers to "write like Tolkien" on any casual level is ludicrous. Tolkien spent YEARS studying great mythologies: The Kalevala, Beowulf, the Nibelungenlied, etc., He was also a literature expert who hung out with other great literature experts in a writers critiquing group that wasn't afraid of constructive criticism. The kind of majestic writing style born out of that kind of mind developed over that many years can't just be "copied" or emulated. It must be EARNED by at least years of deep study in good, classic literature. That, sadly, is why this series is going to sink. What bothers me the most, is that the RoP writers/producers are unwilling to admit any areas they fall short in; essentially we are told that this is the "modern world" being fit into Tolkien's world, and that we need to accept it and put up with it. (Note that they don't even address shortfalls in writing or storytelling, which they should be held accountable for.) Well if what it is now is what they want it to be, than it no longer really is Tolkien's world, is it?

Be united.... This is the time.... Amazon is releasing many propaganda to show how good is this crap. Many reviewer that attend Amazon premier had say the same thing that this serial is so good to watch. So.. Be brave to hold our line of defend.

You said "Tolkien is WORTH Defending." I say Tolkien is worth to bring legacy media down once for all!

We can all win if we don't watch

I do want to see what Amazon has done and judge it from a first hand perspective. I impatiently wait. BTW, I'm still seeing conflicting start dates for this thing. I've looked around and believe those of us in the USA will be able to view it on Thursday, September 1st at 9:00 pm Eastern, 8:00 pm Central, 7:00 pm Mountain and 6:00 pm Pacific. If this is wrong, correct me and state your source, LOL! In the meantime, gird yer loins... 😉

I think the question "Should I be defending (or gatekeeping) Tolkien?" wouldn't be coming up without the question "Should they be doing this TV show?" which is a valid question given the concerns of earnest Tolkien fans. The show says "Based on the works of..." So we will see

@Thor-Orion

Жыл бұрын

More like "named after the works of Tolkien."

I think the difference is Peter Jackson used the movies to convert people to tolkeinism, Amazon is using tolkeinism to convert people to diversity.

You can point out it's essentially a skeleton plot they've inserted their fanfic into, but people will just say, "but it says it was based on Tolkien". As they don't care about Tolkien, they just want days of our lives with hobbits and a wizard

It started with the forging of the great Films. The threads were given by Tolkien, immortal, wisest and fairest of all beings. The rights were granted to Jackson, the great mountain miner and craftsman of the mountain of lore .And nine, nine hours were given to the race of men, who above all else desire quality. But they were all of them deceived, for another show was made. In the Land of Amazon, in the fires of Mount Prime, the Dark Lord Bezos forged in secret a Master Flop. And in to this show he poured his money, his greed and his will to dominate every film. ONE SHOW TO RUIN THEM ALL ⚔️

I wouldn't have cared about RoP at all but for the marketing. I mean, the moon doesn't care about the dogs barking at it after all, there is nothing Amazon can do to alter the actual writing of Tolkien's works. But now, when the marketing pitch seems to be 'like the show or be a bigot' that obviously raises the bar to the insane level of 'no person could find ANYTHING to criticize in good faith without malicious intent'. There is just no way any show or in fact any man made product could be THAT perfect. By the way, I'm not bitching specifically about amazon, I actually have never seen any adaptation of anything that to me felt respectful of the original work. Except for maybe the recent Waiting for the Barbarians. But even with the PJ movies I have huge issues (the main one being whatever the heck happened to Faramir and how Arwen basically thrashed Eowyn's character arch but I remember being hugely annoyed by every little thing that was changed). For reference, I fall in neither the 'books first' nor 'movies first' group as I first saw the fellowship movie, then read LoTR, Hobbit and Silmarillion, then watched the rest of the movies and then read the other written works. However, as soon as I started reading I felt immensely disappointed and for lack of a better word betrayed by the changes PJ made. That doesn't mean that I can't find his movies entertaining, they are certainly good movies but they are not good adaptations imo. The same could have been true for RoP but with how the marketing went I don't have high hopes.

At the end of the day, Tolkien’s name is a standard. As you guys point out in your video, his name implies excellence. The studio knows this too, it’s why they constantly repeat his name, insist they are his successor, it’s probably the reason for their misguided choice to release the show on the anniversary of his death. Each crap show tarnishes his legacy, we’ve seen it with Star Wars, it kills the passion of the fans. If you accept the intolerable, then it has become tolerable and gives license for it to be done again. Therefore criticism must be voiced. That being said people must be courteous, regardless of opposition. Logic wins arguments, insults results in losses and stalemates. It’s not about beating your opponent it’s about convincing the people around you

Just because one is a rabid fan of Tolkien doesn’t mean that you should have a major say in the content of the films or this series, IMO. There will NEVER be a movie that is an exact telling 9f the books. Exact adherence to the books would result in a film that only the hardcore fans would like, and the film would be a financial disaster. It took me a while to realize that, and once I was okay with that, I can enjoy all the movies and now this new series. The world is facing terrible real world problems of way too many varieties nowadays to get upset over a fantasy film or TV SERIES. I’m an old geezer who became a Tolkien fan MANY years ago, love the books, love the films, and so far, love this series. :-)

In Peter Jackson's version, they kept most of the story and erased the superfluous. Watch how Steven Spielberg adapted "Jurassic Park" and you will see the differences between the book and the film.

Whether the show is good or bad, here's my truth: I happily canceled my prime membership when Amazon spat on Tolkien's grave. 🗡 #DefendingTolkien 🗡

I prefer that this show was never made. The changes to the lore and making up new characters is not something I appreciate for tolkien's work.

Surely time compression does not mean new story? It means same story but quicker

A day may come, in the cold twilight at the ending of our age, when the Light of the West grows dim and the memory of Middle Earth is perverted beyond rescue. A day may come when the tales of our heroic ancestors are lost, and the truths they fought for lie shattered and broken in the dust. A day is coming when none shall sing the songs of the Valar, and the only music to be heard will be the bleating self-reverential yawps of tiny men with weak minds and no imagination. A dark day, when the heroic tales that inspired our ancestors and drove them to seek perfection will all have been forgotten. A sad day, when themes of goodness and justice, chivalry, purity and sacrifice are ridiculed and perverted at every turn by those who would deny that such things still exist in the hearts of men. But today is NOT that day! A day may come, my friends, when one cannot tell woman from man or man from woman, and when all love is a perversion of love. A cold, heartless day when the bearded are left beardless, the hole-dwellers rendered holeless and the whole of Middle Earth is left soulless, heartless and meaningless. A day may come when elves, dwarves and men will be judged not for the content of their character, but solely for the colour of their skin, the shape of their junk, or the intensity of their misanthropy. But today is NOT THAT DAY! A day may come when the rich and privileged can buy and sell the cultural heritage of millions for a few farthings, and the noble tales of our great ancestors will have become naught but triflings and tales to sell beer, pickup trucks and laundry detergent. A black day, at the world's end, when all that men turned to for inspiration will be broken humiliation, when the poetry of the ages will be stripped of its rhyme and meter, and placed in the mouths of mumbling sheep. BUT TODAY IS NOT THAT DAY! For all that is still good and decent in this world -- TODAY WE FIGHT!

Frankly, I can't believe that not a *single* person in the "mainstream" corporate media has given this an honest look and presented the 'purist' viewpoint accurately and sincerely. F'ing Steven Colbert acted like he was such a Tolkien lover for so long, and he's shilled for this sh*t so hard it hurts. It's a sad world we know live in; it is *nothing* like the world I grew up in, or lived most of my adult life in. It's very sad.

@sharpienate

Жыл бұрын

So what is your "purist" point of view? I mean, besides calling anyone who doesn't share your pure opinion a "shill"...

@davidkulmaczewski4911

Жыл бұрын

@@sharpienate It's fan fiction. It's a CW show wearing a Tolkien skinsuit. Not only are they failing to follow what he actually wrote (thus making the show entirely uninteresting to me, and many), they are actively changing characters and events. This show is *something,* but it's definitely *not* "Tolkien". So any "Tolkien expert" who doesn't acknowledge this and accurately report it is shilling for Amazon. And that's not even getting into the reprehensible way Amazon, the show runners, and the actors have spoken and acted leading up to the launch. Like it or not, it's a big deal with Tolkien fans. Not a single outlet has presented this simple story: Amazon bought the rights to a beloved classic, they are making drastic changes to the plot, characters, and themes of the work, and fans are not happy. Nope... all we get is "toxic fans" and "trolls" and "racists/misogynists". When you are unable to tell a simple truth (i.e., lie) because of outside pressure, you're a shill.

@sharpienate

Жыл бұрын

@@davidkulmaczewski4911 The show is based on the 2nd age. How could it be anything but "fan fiction"? Some appendices and a few chapters of Silmarillion do not a screenplay make. If it was strictly pure to the source material, the whole series would be 30 minutes of voice over and a few map shots. And you're really stretching to try and capture the title of "fan" like it's something you can exclusively control. You're essentially operating in a No True Scotsman fallacy. "No TRUE fan of Tolkien would like this series, so if you like this series you're not a true fan of Tolkien!" You're talking as if you hold some kind of authority to bestow someone the title of "Tolkien fan". Really? If a person's positive opinion of this show is your primary justification for criticism, then you're not holding a "purist" view....you're just holding a negative view. Which doesn't give you a claim to anyone else's opinion.

@davidkulmaczewski4911

Жыл бұрын

@@sharpienate Your first point is simply incorrect (and your statement that 'the whole series would be a 30 minute voiceover' is just plain ignorant). There are enough writings about the 2nd Age to outline the events and the actions of major characters in significant detail. There's 3000+ years of history to draw on, with plenty of 'big picture' drama to fill five 10-episode seasons no problem. They chose to ignore it all (i.e., their lawyers couldn't manage to negotiate any rights to any of it so they *had* to ignore it all). I'm not talking about consooomers of content, I'm talking about reading the books. People who've read LOTR, and then actually read the Appendices, and then went on to try The Silmarillion, and actually *finished* it, and *then* went on to read even more like Lost Tales, and Unfinished Tales (as Colbert claims to have done). If you've gone that far and end up thinking "Yeah, Amazon writing a cringy ripoff of this stuff is *great!"* then there's something wrong with you. Objective fact. Sorry.

@sharpienate

Жыл бұрын

@@davidkulmaczewski4911 It's humourous watching you try to grasp at objectivity where none exists. I have just as much "right" to claim your personal opinion about a fictional TV series is objectively "wrong". But I don't because I'm not wrapped up in a delusional ego trip. And don't feign manners. You're not actually sorry about jumping on an imaginary high horse and confusing your personal taste with gospel. You live for it. You love it. Makes you feel big and important I guess. Go cry in your pool of narcissus.

This is what happens when you have a few individuals with an obscene amount of money and no common sense.

You don't like the name calling are you serious? Bunch of people get flown over and treated with goodies and all of them have the same type of response regarding the show even a lot of phrasing is the same. No one who went doesn't say anything bad against it. If that isn't a shill I don't know what is.