For those wondering about weights: Hambini 97.2g - Token Ninja 104g The edit is a bit rough on this one! Sorry about that! I was editing on a laptop with a trackpad and no mouse and have been too busy to find time to do a good edit these days. Hopefully will return to the quality you guys expect going forward.

@pedroandrade2398

3 жыл бұрын

are you still using the Token BB? my shimano factory has creeked from the get go. Hambini's too much money for me. BTW: nice ideia (i think ) to make a follow up on this. have a great week!

HELLO HAMBINI FANS

@manueldeubler1127

3 жыл бұрын

Gosh, why was this so loud? Didn't see this one coming.

@helmutkok7833

3 жыл бұрын

HELLO!!!

@junboo8730

3 жыл бұрын

Haha Hello

@MichaelTabolsky

3 жыл бұрын

Scrolled down only hoping to find this one

@remitournier2526

3 жыл бұрын

Salut Hambini, j'espère que tu vas bien !

“If you like it stiff, you’ve got to get your hands on Hambini’s big black one!” fnarr fnarr

I love that people are testing Hambini BB's and they come out on top. No BS marketing, pure maths and physics from Hambini beating all the big guys.

@moshet842

2 жыл бұрын

What else do you expect from a $300 BB? I am sure the big dogs could do just as good or better for $300

@JeffBurns

2 жыл бұрын

@@moshet842 given the economies of scale, the big dogs should be able to do as well for $100-150. Limited production runs really jacks up your Cost of Goods Sold figure if you're manufacturing something. R&D costs are fixed, but if you can amortize that R&D cost over 100,000 units instead of say 100-200, then you can charge a lot less per unit.

@stemac1969

Жыл бұрын

@@JeffBurns well said.

@AndrewTSq

Жыл бұрын

@@JeffBurns but big companys want profit. thats why you see $8k frames are misaligned and so on.

Token make some really good products I can't afford Chris King So I go cheap and reliable Token fits the bill

I own the Hambini racing edition bottom bracket.now i've used it i would never use any other.so easy to fit and so smooth.well worth the money.

@nickmannerings3574

3 жыл бұрын

I have one and totally agree.

@rokoandreis3714

Жыл бұрын

How many miles or km have made with the BB and no creaking at all?

The Hambini BB is made to the very highest sizes & tolerances, I've seen the video where an independent engineer thoroughly checked every dimension & tolerances and was very Impressed on how well the BB was made, so you get what you pay for.

loved the price point on the first bracket. keep them bits coming, nice comparison and break down on what's what, and good to get some growth in your videos shouting out a couple of solid channels. love peace and hair grease

@ChinaCycling

3 жыл бұрын

Love peace and hair grease...I like that.

I have an Allez Sprint with the Hambini Racing BB30 to Shimano BB. Besides fit/comfort related stuff, it's easily the best upgrade I've made. Makes climbing out of the saddle super fun.

@ChinaCycling

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, my my Allez Sprint was always a bit creaky at low cadences.

@404nobrakes

3 жыл бұрын

China Cycling That might not be the BB. If it's a "click click click" that almost sounds like cracking/popping it might be that your downtube cable stops need to be removed, cleaned and greased. Thread-together BBs do not creak unless your frame or bearings are totally shot.

@mreyes2633

3 жыл бұрын

Same here! Creaking went away! And I bought NTN LLB bearings for my zipp 404 just to finish that upgrade

Is the Hambini going to get a roasting? Is the Token bottom bracket just that? The suspense.....!!!! 😀

I bought a Token BB for my old bike (2013 Cannondale SuperSix) when I changed from the FSA crankset to Shimano. It worked flawlessly. I never had any issues out of it in the three years (maybe two, can't exactly remember) that I had it. I initially chose it because it didn't require me to purchase any special tools to install it. Mine even came with a cap style tool to tighten the BB. Oh, and I am 6'3" and about 220lbs

I lol’d when you flexed your XXXXXXL bb press. Every Hambini bb needs to come with one!

@ChinaCycling

3 жыл бұрын

Fairly sure I could use it to install the bearings in a Rolls Royce jet engine.

@Hambini

3 жыл бұрын

@@ChinaCycling PMSL

I needed a new BB as my Shimano pressfit was shot. I really wanted hambini but I really can't justify 350 quid at the moment. I jumped in on the Token (not ceramic because I want it to last more than 1000 miles) and I'm really pleased with it. Thanks for the tip

@cowbellystits3007

Жыл бұрын

zerofrictioncycling.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Hybrid-Ceramic-Vs-Steel-Bearings-Article-2.pdf

@cowbellystits3007

Жыл бұрын

I have no experience with his bottom brackets, however I think this is worth a read. I wouldn't trust everything he claims

@TrickyTree84

Жыл бұрын

@@cowbellystits3007 hi. What is worth a read?

If there's no lame PowerPoint I'm not watching.

@benoitbvg2888

19 күн бұрын

His pen isn't even working.

I've been running Hambini race bracket for 18 months in my S works with no problem whatsoever. Still running original bearings after 23,000 miles. If bearings fail in my S works Epic I'll looking for a Hambini in that too.

Just one little flaw in the narrative: the stiffness of any material is a quantum mechanically determined quantity that cannot be changed by any heat treatment. The measure for stiffness is the Young‘s Modulus and is in the ballpark of 70, 110, 210 GPa (Giga Pascal = kN/mm^2) for Aluminium, Titanium, Iron, respectively. Alloying elements have a surprisingly small effect on stiffness, since the stiffness is a measure of how strongly the individual atoms are bonded together. Therefore, the Young‘s Modulus of an alloy usually varies within a few percent of the base material‘s modulus. That does not mean Hambini‘s BB may not provide a stiffer solution though, but it certainly does not come from heat treatment, but rather from the one piece design and cleverly selected dimensions. Bottom line: bear in mind that alloying elements and heat treatments only ever take influence on material strength, never stiffness.

Thanks for the video really help me, i bought the Token ninja fit perferct in my specialized Allez Sprint BB30 specialized call it OSBB but is the same.

This is an excellent quality hostage video

I didnt see hambinis big black one coming. What a lovely surprise.

@ChinaCycling

3 жыл бұрын

Ｉ thought it was the low-hanging fruit. (That's almost a double entendre in of itself.)

@Hambini

3 жыл бұрын

YOu too can get a big black one. Just hang a weight off it every day for 20 minutes. It will certianly go black and swell from the hematoma

@MrAmorti

3 жыл бұрын

@@Hambini doctor, doctor! Take away the pain, but leave the swelling!

Spin tests and “drop / drag” tests are absurd! It depends on grease and quantity of.

I bought one of the Token BBs and it doesn't use the standard Shimano BB tool. So, worth checking when ordering. Fortunately I had a spare Praxis thread together BB which is decent. Sadly, I have a GXP power meter crankset, so Hambini isn't an option.

Did you do a video on your final thoughts on your superlight climbing bike ? Can on see two parts and I think you said there was going to be three parts ? Cheers

Recently got myself a hambini racing edition BB is a butter smooth. No regrets.

This is the best lighting I've ever seen in a bicycle talking head video. Also, SHOW US THE SLC. That's the bike I'm really eyeing these days!

@ChinaCycling

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks. I'm actually building 2 SLCs at the moment. an 'every day' one and a crazy climbing one. Every day one will be 5.x kg, crazy climbing one ~4.5kg

Good knowledge shared Joe!

hey Joe, it would be nice if you'd tested these from the performance perspective! thanks!

The BB is the heart of the bike. You start the build from there....

I would be interested in seeing the bottom brackets tested by setting the bike up on a smart trainer and comparing the difference in wattage readings between the pedals or cranks with different bottom brackets. If there's any significant difference in power transmission for different bottom brackets, then it should show up as a difference between power at the pedal/crank and power at the rear wheel.

@ChinaCycling

3 жыл бұрын

I think there's not enough accuracy in power meters and smart trainers. With a bb you're probably talking saving you 1% or so, but the temperature drift of your two devices could easily affect the result.

I fixed my BB90 Trek Madone with a Token Ninja bottom bracket. I could wipe out a stock or a ceramic nondrive side bearing in two months. Just from sweat and occasional rain or moisture. Put in the Token and it spins great and does feel more stiff compared to anything else I have tried. I hadn't heard of Hambini when I changed to the Token but I don't see the need to change out the Token because it works so well. Also used a Token on my Java bb86 carbon frame and it works perfectly. Installation is very easy and it just plain works! I just can't afford a Hambini . as much as I would like one.

@chowsee

2 жыл бұрын

Hello John, just wondering if you have tried to swap out the bearings inside the BB90 token ninja bb? If so, what was the new bearings dimensions?

@johnhorgash9031

2 жыл бұрын

@@chowsee Hi! I really don't see a need to replace the bearings that came with both my Ninja bottom brackets. They spin perfectly with no sign of sweat or water contamination on my Madone. Which is pretty much a miracle to me!

Very happy with the Token Ninja Campag UT on my Look 795 Blade. It comes without bearings and you use the standard Campag ones pressed on to the half axles. Only complaint is that it doesn’t have a drive side bearing retention clip so you can actually push against the wave washer and shift the crank over about 1mm to the drive side. In actual use however this doesn’t appear to matter. I initially went with another BB (one piece similar to a Hambini) but the tolerances were way off - it was undersized in the shell and even more bizarrely the internal flange spacing was incorrect so the axle had about 5mm of lateral movement. The suggestion from the manufacturer was to use bearing retainer to keep the bearings in place. Not impressive...

@nstrug

3 жыл бұрын

Oh, and it also pressed in from the NDS so if it ever came loose you would end up hitting your chain stay with your chainring...

I have two Hambini race bb’s (two bikes). No issues in years….used to go through bb’s and had issues. These are the best BB’s made. Period. Good video.

I guess I have been living under a rock. Thanks. Never heard of the brand.

@ChinaCycling

3 жыл бұрын

Sometimes living under a rock is the best place to live. Especially in 2020.

@sjv6598

3 жыл бұрын

I’d never heard of Hambini either.

Love the " phone call"!

The solution to the spanners slipping off the notches on the flanges is having the spanners be held against the bb flanges with a threaded bar, 2 bushings slightly bigger than the bb flanges and 2 nuts. Also, with that type of bb you want to undo it regularly every once in a while as they have a tendency to seize on the threads. I have recently had to use a saw to cut through the centre sleeve of a Hope bb to release the parts from each other, as it wouldn't let go even with a spanner with a long handle. This after having put plenty of anti-seize paste on the threads when installing it and having it in the frame for 2 years. I have had the Token Ninja on my Look 795 Blade RS for some 1k miles now of both dry and wet weather riding and so far I can't fault it. Perhaps NTN bearings would last longer, but otherwise a recreational rider like me wouldn't be able to tell the difference which one is which, if I didn't know what was installed. It's also worth mentioning that, for some of their bottom brackets, Token make a version dedicated to fitting in oversized or worn out shells. I believe it is 0.1 or 0.2mm bigger diameter than the relevant standard.

@ChinaCycling

3 жыл бұрын

That oversized version is interesting! Never seen it. As for the bottom brackets seizing at the threads, that also sounds horrible. I can only imagine theres some poor frame alignment, so when you're pedalling the two halves are trying to move in seperate directions causing lots of friction and heat on the threads?

Aerospace is all about defined processes, material certifications, quality testing and traceability. Traceability means that there are traceable records for every aspect of all components. So for the bearings, you would have a record that showed the manufacturer and lot number for the bearings, and the manufacturer of the bearings would have a record of the material (with chemistry and testing documents) that was used to make the bearings for that lot. And there would probably be a sample of bearings from each lot that was destructively tested to qualify the lot. This is what makes aerospace parts so expensive. And in this case, bottom brackets.

@JayGee6996

3 жыл бұрын

You made sense until the last bit. There is zero requirement for certification, proof of testing or traceability in a bb lol? Hambini’s bb’s are the price they are because of the cost of the quality materials/components, manual production methods, qc on every bb and the fact he doesn’t make many so he needs to raise the price to make it worthwhile. Also, he’s a famous 5 year old which doesn’t come cheap

@corynardin

3 жыл бұрын

@@JayGee6996 in not taking about hambini's standards, I'm taking about aerospace standards. And I'm not of the mindset that everything should be made to aerospace standards. Aerospace standards came about because if a part fails on a satellite, there is no practical way to fix it. So reliability is imperative. If your bottom bracket fails, you take it to the shop.

@waynosfotos

3 жыл бұрын

Don't bother explaining certification and how accuracy works people don't get it. In fact people don't know what a proper calibration is and those plus and minus figures they claim for power meters is not a accuracy figure, it is the ability of the the lab to measure. It is complicated.

@82vitt

3 жыл бұрын

@@JayGee6996 The bearings he puts in those bbs are pricey alone too, especially if it is NTN. They alone cost more than the entire Token bb together with the bearings it comes with.

I'd love to get my hands on Hambo's big black one 😆

I have my old cheap bike with a Square BB threaded, not even the Hambini BB comes close to the level of smoothness and easy of play you can setup on that 1970's system. For the BB86 bikes I use the ZTTO threaded shell BB86 in Ceramic. I get super slick movement and no noises what so ever. I don't like 10 speed systems due to the more noisy drive-train as on my old bike with the 7 speed freewheel it is super quiet, no noise with the thicker chain and the freewheel system.

I have the Token Ninja for Shimano that came with my Winspace frame, it is a very nice piece of screw-together machining especially for its price at retail. But the first hope is to get a Campagnolo group for the future buildup of my Chinese-Italian super-bike so a Shimano-spec BB won't do me much good... if I don't use the Ninja on the bike maybe I could use it in a prop? :-)

In fairness Habinini's BB is more solution for dodgy frames than just a BB. So if you look at it like that it's worth it.

@ChinaCycling

2 жыл бұрын

Very true.

That studding is at least an M8 but more like M10, it's quite easy to tell as the it indicates how many mm in diameter...but definitely not an M5 :D

Hey dude just wondering how long this Ninja BB lasted before you changed it. Plus would you recommend them?

For removal go to your local hardware store and buy a HT Tube DN50 works as well.

Great video, thank you.

M12?? 😂😂🙊🙊. Great video ..... Enjoyed the B roll editing. Top Job

@arzemagic

3 жыл бұрын

I was going to put it was M 12 but had a look to see if anyone else caught up on that

It's just awesome that someone is making aerospace grade bb's, can we press gang Hambini into making more parts for bikes.....

is appreciable the difference between a shimano BB and a Token Ninja?

Low friction bearings can be installed on anything

Many frames if you realy test them very well have issues and in that ase a Hambini BB will fix the problem where a two piece BB won't.

How long do Token BB bearings last , anyone know ?

Hi, I am looking for bike tools set - bag. Any recommendations?

How does the Hambini BB differ from BBInfinite?

Hambini's big black unit always satisfies.

@ChinaCycling

3 жыл бұрын

Just ask Belinda.

Seemed a fair review with balanced comments on the worth of both units. Only thing I can say is if Token call their bearings "premium" without saying anything else to back that up it becomes a hollow statement of marketing pish.

@ChinaCycling

3 жыл бұрын

I agree. I imagine it's because they change suppliers depending what they have, etc. But don't quote me

@colduncan1063

3 жыл бұрын

@@ChinaCycling that's a fair point and something I hadn't considered.

Spoiler - that BB is machined perfectly. As expected.

informative! nice video.🤟🏼

Really surprised Magene have not reached out to you for a review of their new power meter.

No torq wrench for the token bb ?

People (and the bike industry) need to get their priorities in order when it comes to bearings. I hear people all the time complaining that Hambini and other premium BB's are "overpriced" and they are just "taking money from stupid people" yet every other bike I see is rocking a $150 - $200 Chris King headset, and thats fine because a fat ex-hippie that looks like he hasn't rode a bike in 30 years says his headsets are the best. The BB is the most critical bearing assembly in terms of ride quality, efficiency and performance and yet most people don't want to spend over $30 on a set.

@ChinaCycling

3 жыл бұрын

Totally agree about the headset thing. That's because everyone can see your bling bling headset, but there's no way to 'show off' your BB. >_

Since Hambini unfortunately does not make a bottom bracket for BB86 SRAM DUB fitment. What BB do you use and would recommend?

@ChinaCycling

3 жыл бұрын

I'm using the standard SRAM unit. It's not bad, definitely not great though. Spin test wasn't bad, but I've heard a few creaky creaks after riding in the rain once or twice.

Hi guys please help me. I want to get into cycling and have a budget of 1500€, what frame, and wheelset should i go for? The groupset i'm going is a 105 disk, so that takes 600€, so i have 900€ for wheels and frame, what are your suggestions?

@bernardo9202

3 жыл бұрын

I can go for the sensah or microshit groupset to, but I don't seem to find a good source to get them, don't trust the business model over aliexpress and alibaba, don't know if i get what i want or a rock

....’PT kinda like Hambini without the sweating ... ‘. Lol, Interesting video, thanks for posting.

Now compare the Token to the ZTTO thread together BBs from AliExpress. Ceramic and steel bearing options. Less than half the price. They look very promising

@ChinaCycling

3 жыл бұрын

Good idea

can you do a review for java? they have a good carbon bike called the feroce

I had Token Ninja lite, the shell is plastic, so it creaks and lets all mud inside bearings.

My 7usd bsa ZTTO bottom bracket actually spin a bit better, but it kinda noisy.

well done Joe! any reviews planned for magene new dual sided power meter on KS?

@ChinaCycling

3 жыл бұрын

I've gotta review their new Ultegra one first. I know they're still tweaking the design of the one on kickstarter.

@johnnyboy4711

3 жыл бұрын

@@ChinaCycling greetings from Ireland keep up the great content

"if you like it stiff you need to get your hands on Hambini's big black one" He is definitely going above and beyond on this review.

We all love Mr Potty mouth don't we 😂😂 just a, quick question about Sensah, I already have the 11 speed shifters work well with my Sram rival derailleurs but have been known to fail, I am about to order the carbon 2 x 12, do these have the plastic inners or do they they upgraded metal internals? Have asked the seller but not sure if they will have a clue? Thanks for your informative vids.

Does the bb30 swears while you riding? 😆

I hope you also review the new ltwoo r9.

Thank u so much

You look comfy. That's what she said. edit; This only makes sense if you saw the commercial.

Also French LOOK bikes as standard have installed Ninja Token BB : ) So they must be very good.

remarkable precision by Hambini...

10:56 is proof that Hambini is right about space grade precision

Perfect!

How does one route electric wires for DI2 (etc) thru the BB area?

@firesurfer

3 жыл бұрын

There are several methods. Many frames have internal routing.

@404nobrakes

3 жыл бұрын

John Edge the BB is tapered in the center to allow wired to pass over or under it. But you are right that it can be a pain. You have to make sure the BB doesn't catch the wires when pressing.

I've used a token bb on my 2011 supersix evo. I live in the uk and ride around my city centre mostly so some roads are smooth and some are eaten or bumpy. I had it installed in winter and rode through cold wet and dry conditions. It lasted 4-5 months before I started hearing creaks. I'm not sure whats wrong but the left bearing is stuck in the frame.

@OYeahan

3 жыл бұрын

The removal info in this video is incorrect - you just unscrew a bit and then (soft-blow) hammer on the side that pulls out to pop the other side off, and then continue on and on till the sides pop out fully and separate.

Smart marketing with other established vloggers. Question - Do you currently work for Winspace in any capacity at the moment?

@ChinaCycling

3 жыл бұрын

Yes. I help them with photo and video work, as well as answering some emails etc if it's a bit complicated, avoids the language barrier.

@justinkase8716

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the reply. Refreshing to see their perspective towards manufacturing and pleased to hear you’re helping them out. 👍

Finally some honest guy who's talk right

Which is heavier? Did you weigh them?

@ChinaCycling

3 жыл бұрын

Hambini 97.2g Token Ninja 104g

That was so funny... You know hambini gonna come after you with a good portion of jovial abuse. 😂😂👍

@ChinaCycling

3 жыл бұрын

Don't dish it out if you can't take it. ;)

@cyclinglover3721

3 жыл бұрын

And bunch of profanity that's the only way he knows how to speak very poorly from some one who's claim about being the main eurofighter part maker

Rides of Japan removed the bearings on the Ninja and replaced them with NTN ones. He documents it on his channel.

@ChinaCycling

3 жыл бұрын

I remember watching that video when it came out, but can't remember him swapping the bearings. Haha, I'm getting old. ;)

Love the video. Horse for courses.

Would say Hambini bottom bracket as near perfection as is possible. Replacing bearings simple. Job for life. Ninja and other similar products work well but not the same....top quality equals top price.

@82vitt

3 жыл бұрын

Yet, most if not all rider's wouldn't be able to tell the difference, if they didn't know what is installed on the bike. I have both, a Hambini bb with NTN bearings and a Token Ninja in another frame. Both have so far done fine, and I wouldn't for shit be able to tell which one is which. Thing is, if the bb shell on your frame is made to sloppy tolerances neither of the two is likely to fix it.

@felixjackson2670

3 жыл бұрын

@@82vitt yep no doubt. Then we move on to whether most riders would feel the difference between Dura Ace and 105 gear shift...I use Campag Record (always have,since 1970’s) Would I FEEL The difference if my bike had a Chorus Crankset..nope.Does my Hope headset on the MTB feel any different from F.S.A.? For myself it is about ‘quality’ just having something that has high level of engineering and high end material. But I agree 100% with your point.

The Token BB will Fix any Issues you may have experienced with a press fit BB. The Hambini BB is overkill and way to expensive for gains that are probably next to nothing.

Rides of Japan managed to change thr bearing on the token. Not that easy though.

@MrKadillak

2 жыл бұрын

I recently changed out my drive side Ninja bearing w an NTN bearing.

does a bicycle need that level of tolerance ? not trolling just wondering

I am a Hambini fanboy! So that is of course is the best..... But on a more serious note, a thread two piece will never have the accuracy of alignment as a one piece unit.

@cyclinglover3721

3 жыл бұрын

Says who's??? The tread is long and fine course I got one and is perfect

@gabiology77

3 жыл бұрын

Just rationality says that. On one corner the Champion: a one piece, thick, almost straight, precision handcrafted-relaxed, heat treated chunk made of fine grade aluminium, as a precise nest for worlds best genuine industrial bearings and these bearings contain lathe made! delrim (made by Dupont) contact rings. On the other corner a two piece, thin, threaded -probably not even microthreaded, nor heat treated, I guess only CNC made, rapidly mass produced, quality controlled randomly on the fly parts from some kind of? aluminium alloy with ABEC grade 😀 bearings in it. I'm not saying its "bad" just it's in another league a "value", "cost effective", "price counciess" category.

@waynosfotos

3 жыл бұрын

@@cyclinglover3721 says every engineer. A thread has to have clearance between the thread for it to be able to turn and screw in, so it can never be as precise. That is just the trade off using that design.

Seriously.. Internet just answered my recent problems.. It also had the same BB size..

Funny that because Hambini also makes a 2 part bottom bracket that screws together in the middle

@waynosfotos

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah but the thead is not in the middle, it is a sleeve that goes over the end to press fit it. Different design.

What are those work stand looks nice

@ChinaCycling

3 жыл бұрын

Super B. It's not bad!

Nice review, but you forgot to talk about the Token fiber in frame contact, this is a special feature from Token and really avoid creaks. Another thing is the seals, which Hambini has a plastic cups.

@shibaburn7725

2 жыл бұрын

Is there any more information about the Token Ninja auxiliary seals?

@nazimwahid5208

2 жыл бұрын

@@shibaburn7725 kzread.info/dash/bejne/anuemrqEk9qtipM.html

Can't compare 2-piece to 1-piece shell.

@ChinaCycling

3 жыл бұрын

You can, I just did. But, is it a fair comparison or not? That's the question. If you can afford the Hambini $$$ I don't think you'll regret it, but at the same time, if you're on a budget, I think if you're frame is decent, you won't be a million miles away with the Ninja.

once you get it on your hand its not just another BB/metal. its like a piece of art....

With a perfect BB shell, as in TIME bikes, no problem even with average quality BB : )

@ChinaCycling

10 ай бұрын

Yup! So you just gotta hope you don't get a dog.

Token....winning a design award for its ability to thread together.... something wheels MFG did over 10 years ago. (Facepalm)

Get youtuber Cam Nicholas on a Winspace aero-frame for a comparison against a Cannondale Systemsix.

Seems like Token is the one to buy and the Hambini one is built tolerances not needed.

I had a pair of very light, speedy token weeks a few years ago on my road bike. And what can I say, this wheels, a piece of S... Change parts after 4000 km (rear hub and bearings, change another rear hub after 3500 km. No way. On the front less than 6000 km with my bearings. I change for Chinese wheels, simple design, none of these small springs inside your hub. May be as good as an original Mavic for 400 us dollars (carbon wheels) take attention what inside the stuff, the more simple the design is the better.