I'm gunna ask my Tae Kwon Do instructor to teach me Korean back dash irl.

@rockybalboa1929

3 жыл бұрын

My sensei already put that on the black belt syllabus. U need to master it to get a black belt here

@zeusgloriani7712

3 жыл бұрын

From my experience, if both players are counter fishers, then it sorta looks like a tekken match. its not actually KBD but a double backdash (im Blue Belt)

@williamkarlsson785

3 жыл бұрын

That is the first move everyone learns in sparing

@gdicon

3 жыл бұрын

@@rockybalboa1929 You see i know this is a lie because Taekwondo is korean and you used the word sensei. Sensei is japanese lmao. good one

@SonataNoKami

3 жыл бұрын

@Aidan Asher wooo bot accounts

10:18 TMM learned how to mime so well

@dopekidrepublic

3 жыл бұрын

😂😂😂😂😂

@disruptor6550

3 жыл бұрын

TheMainMimeSWE

@abbukid

3 жыл бұрын

Hahaha good one!😂

@thatsoulsguy3028

5 ай бұрын

I thought I was tripping shrooms for a sec lol

Just like the discovery of the KBD, I also was an accident and turned out alright :)

@MuzzYADam

3 жыл бұрын

"There are no mistakes just happy accidents"

@kgjhg4897

3 жыл бұрын

XD

@Danyboyx

3 жыл бұрын

Bless your soul🤣💥

@joshuagwyn1022

3 жыл бұрын

Debatable

@gamingcomedy5

3 жыл бұрын

Holy shit I almost choked on my food 🤣 that was great

Heihachi ahh look at baby kazuya making his first step Kazuya ⬅️⬅️↙️⬅️⬅️

@jajuanbraxton7783

3 жыл бұрын

💀💀💀

@franjoikrloipatrik

3 жыл бұрын

Hahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhaga

@JuxDat

3 жыл бұрын

😭😭😭 oh my god

@imjonathan6745

3 жыл бұрын

Haha copied comment is so hilarious 😂

@thecoomchalice5441

3 жыл бұрын

Hilarious and original

Ima just reiterate an idea i commented on one of TMM’s old vids about this topic: Instead of making it all or nothing where its either u mash back to backdash or u have to stick it out and learn kbd why not compromise and have it so that the standard backdash recovers faster to the point that mashing back is viable, but not as fast as a kbd. Now everyone is happy: beginner and intermediate players have a solid way of moving and have the option to learn proper kbd if they wanna take it to the next level, and at the same time legacy players who already know how to kbd are still rewarded with the most optimal way to move. Advanced movement is one of the key defining traits of Tekken but at the same time having an easy version for beginners would make the journey more bearable and would still keep the identity of the game in tact at high level, thats my take.

@tonycliftonshades

3 жыл бұрын

I like this idea. It's sort of a win/win situation.

@spiritualopportunism4585

3 жыл бұрын

Ima is not a wordddddddddddd

@HairyLoco

3 жыл бұрын

It's an unrelated example but it's a similar topic. My girlfriend is not a Tekken player, but she absolutely loves the assist system. I'm... decent at the game. Without the assist system she doesn't stand much of a chance because I've learned to combo on reaction. I am very much in favor of anything that makes the game accessible to new players, rage art, assists, armor crush (which I can easily "fall for"), because without these things, she would have turned off the game in frustration long ago and I wouldn't be able to play my favorite game with my favorite human. So I agree, movement should be made easier. Tekken should be accessible to new players, but I also very much like the idea where execution beats access.

@daedrascrolls

3 жыл бұрын

They should also increase the range of a backdash imo so that you don't need to mash that hard

@DogOffTheLeash

3 жыл бұрын

@@spiritualopportunism4585 neither is wordddddddddd, but you’re using it

"The labbing never ends" wiser words have never been spoken.

@epicon6

3 жыл бұрын

That's what makes Tekken great for me. Street Fighter V has easy movement, easy execution, easy combos, easy to lab, not many moves. That's the direction Tekken would be heading if things were made easier. To me personally the biggest identity to Tekken is the large move list because then i have something else to do than just hadouken and shoyuken and be creative with the characters i play, so that every Heihachi i see isn't just the same Heihachi as another player yesterday.

@ichibi87

3 жыл бұрын

@@epicon6 I totally agree...a non player friend of mine commented on how in the community people talk about "your Jin", "his Feng Wei" etc...it's much more about the player-character combination.

One thing I never see mentioned in this discussion is that easier movement doesn't automatically mean better movement, in a sense that there's still another large skill barrier of knowing how to effectively use it.

@Cyborg_Lenin

2 жыл бұрын

Well i dont understand the argument at all. People have basic movement, its pretty easy. KBD is ADVANCED movement tech. The whole idea is that its not easy. Its like saying combos or juggles should be just mashing 1 button. "Its unfair to newer players! they have to learn this thing that is central to the game"

i feel like that's what the ranked system is for. you and your oppenent won't know how to backdash in 3rd dan, but as you get better you discover new ways to get out of pressure situations

The thing with the basketball example is that dribbling actually opened up movement from little to no movement at all to being able to move with the ball. In Tekken the people in favour of easy movement do not seem to suggest that KBD should be removed, but made easier. So, in my opinion the basketball situation is slightly different in this regard.

@pederino6737

3 жыл бұрын

i would argue dribbling is quite easy, imagine instead of simply throwing the ball against the ground, they would have to do constant backflips to move forward, which is more equal to KBD. this analogy with basketball doesnt make that much sense

@dirky1185

2 жыл бұрын

@@pederino6737 there's no way you think doing multiple backflips while dribbling is the equivalent to korean back dashing.... LOL

@zacktheslayer6564

Жыл бұрын

@@pederino6737 this is a year old, idc, what this is closer to is that people just want you to carry the ball around. no dribbling needed. thats what people want from the fighting game, to be able to spam one directional input over and over to negate all options of attacks. imagine basket ball, but you could just run around with the ball in your hands with no restrictions. that basically means the game either because a consistent stalemate, or becomes football

@MarkoLomovic

Жыл бұрын

​@@zacktheslayer6564 I don't think people just want to carry ball around they just want to be able to dribble. Dribbling is easy you pick up the ball and you can play basketball. KBD/wavedash is very hard by comparison and not fun to use to be completely honest and new players are going to have their hands sore from practicing it and probably taking months. I don't believe basic movement like kbd/wavedash should be locked behind hard execution because it is basic movement ie moving forward/back.

@zacktheslayer6564

Жыл бұрын

@@MarkoLomovic dribbling is not at all easy when you're talking multidirectional and fast hand-eye coordination and reaction, plus multitasking. wavedashing is 100% doable by literally anyone, even my cousin with extremely shaky hands and tight fingers, you just have to practice in a way that you're comfortable with.

I feel the solution isn't necessarily to remove KBD but make movement itself stronger like previous tekkens. Let everyone have a stronger backdash and it shouldn't be a problem like it was ( slightly ) in previous games, because as TMM said for a lot of characters (except maybe lee, dragunov, etc) the hitboxes are really good while they are on the offense and quite a few characters have evasive shit like paul and zafina's df2, so if I have stronger movement, I have a fair chance of avoiding these by making the opponent think before doing one move into another. This way KBD retains its usefulness while even not doing it can get u far . Even anakin has said that knowing when to do a single backdash or just bacdash sidestep cancels can be really effective at high level of play (I'm paraphrasing). So if these aspects (single backdash, single sidestep/walk) are buffed, it would be good.

@sleepinbelle9627

3 жыл бұрын

IMO korean backdash should function like electrics. An advanced input that isn't strictly necessary, but gets you a big advantage in niche situations. Like, maybe certain long-reaching pokes can only be avoided and whiff punished by KBD. If they're willing to make KBD an intentional feature, like giving it special properties when performed, you could have some really cool advanced tech. Honestly though, as a new tekken player, I haven't yet got to the point where KBD is important. I think tekken needs a lot more changes for new players, mostly in how it presents information. As well as the obvious thing of maybe getting a fucking tutorial, I think learning characters would be so much more fun if movelists weren't just a wall of names and inputs. Tell me all the relevant information about a move in the movelist. Also, maybe grouping moves into broad categories, or allowing players to group them themselves, would make it easier to read. Even just indenting follow-ups to moves, rather than just listing them after the move, would go a LONG way to making the game readable.

@themorrigan3673

3 жыл бұрын

This is just dumb

@saadhasan2518

3 жыл бұрын

I agree characters such as Mishimas Jin Nina Dragunov Anna Bryan Lee require you to be good in movement.

@crackededge9351

3 жыл бұрын

Sidestepping is the movement option in need of the biggest buff in Tekken. It has no right to be as weak as it currently is. Tekken is supposed to be a 3D game, after all.

I feel like TMM saying identity has kind of become a meme, he is right of course but its just such a buzz word for him at this point that I always chuckle when he says it lmao

@thenightman9189

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, it's like "bloated" roster. As soon as I hear someone say "bloated" or "identity" unironically, I know they have just been watching main man and don't really know what they are talking about.

@titsbitchmcgee7502

3 жыл бұрын

@@thenightman9189 Maybe for "identity", but people have been talking about bloated rosters for a long time. Not just for Tekken either.

@mychaeljones7526

3 жыл бұрын

@@thenightman9189 bloated is universal for things over the natural count or size.

Backdash ~ Sidestep ~ backdash, now even you at home can backdash cancel.

An accident like Strafe jumping in Quake

@carljohnson4285

3 жыл бұрын

I commend you for this comment as I am both a Quake & DooM fan

@ViVaLaRan

3 жыл бұрын

@@carljohnson4285 thx! Quake & doom 4 life :)

@morbidtoaster8615

3 жыл бұрын

Another example(tho not a one to one comparison) is rocket jumping. It’s not that difficult to do but it does allow players to reach certain places much easier than normally

@stambe8605

3 жыл бұрын

Or Mustalisk/Air units stacking and magic boxes in Starcraft Brood War.

@Reydriel

3 жыл бұрын

I wish I could strafe jump in more games tbh

One of their option is to allow the player to cancel the backdash by an other backdash BUT it would be less efficient that the KBD

@a321adrien321

3 жыл бұрын

@Anton Marshall nothing would change about the KBD, it would be an other option for new players to retreat. If they like the game and want to progress, they will be able to learn the KBD to retreat faster. I think that the more options a game have, the better it is

There was a game called GunZ: The Duel way back in the day. It was a shooter all about movement exploits. Infact the most popular style of gameplay involving a sword, 2 shotguns, and fancy close quarter combat was called "K-style", short for korean style. It took A LOT of execution to do that fancy movement. It's sequel Gunz2 was dead at launch for removing these exploits and any of the skill involved when doing "fancy" stuff similar to its predecessor. It would be the perfect comparison but not as relatable as basketball I guess

@johnpanganiban7856

3 жыл бұрын

In our country, we call the "butterfly movement." If i recall it correctly, jts jump - dash - slash - guard - repeat. And a whole lot more involving shotguns and launchers 🤣

@VanRukh

3 жыл бұрын

@@johnpanganiban7856 It's nice to know there are some people who remember this awesome game. Yea I remember what some moves were called. butterfly, double bf, triple bf, PB, fly, Switch fly. It's unfortunate this game still has not had a true revival

@ChefPomme

3 жыл бұрын

I loved Gunz! I spent so much time practicing butterfly movements, wall canceling, dashing. It was a great time.

@bweeptabop3944

3 жыл бұрын

I actually discovered this game very recently after I saw Ulsan playing it once on his stream.

I’ve seen mighty rulers play without kbd but I’m still getting my ass handed

@wisdomseeker0142

3 жыл бұрын

Lmaooo this made me laugh really hard. They probably have a character with good strings and powerful moves or ranged attacks. Alisa and Julia don’t need a backdash all the time.... cause they can stay in your face all day. Who’s your character?

@ToastyMoldyPopTarts

3 жыл бұрын

@@wisdomseeker0142 I’m playing lili, Lee and jin. And yeah there’s a few alisa that I had to deal with. Wasn’t exactly the most exciting thing to deal with

@rockybalboa1929

3 жыл бұрын

He just dont need it to defeat u

@Coolbeans554

3 жыл бұрын

It’s all characters, I constantly come across paul players at like divine ruler and if you watched them play without a rank you’d swear that they’re a warrior at best. They literally stand still and mash evasive shit and demo man. It doesn’t bother me I take my free wins but it disappoints me how people complain about the movement nerfs but 95% of the player base can’t deal with a paul standing still.

10:21 thanks for clarifying that one tmm

It found curious how it went from videogames to the story of basketball dribbling, i use a joystick but it was nice knowing this strategy with arcade sticks

Tekken in general as a fighting game just has a high skill floor, if you wanna have fun you need to set your goal on getting above that floor. It’s an inevitability

0:45 Dad: “Oh what a coincidence, I was about to tell you about that” Me: “No dad it’s a gam-“ Das: “It’s was 1998 and your mom bought a way too cheap condom..”

@krypix

3 жыл бұрын

oh wow thanks DAS

@samerkk1836

3 жыл бұрын

it was* your* too*

@arwinaziz911

3 жыл бұрын

@@samerkk1836 tnx bro second language struggles

@samerkk1836

3 жыл бұрын

@@arwinaziz911 :)

10:22 I absolutely agree with this

Coming from SC and Melee I feel Tekkens movement can be pretty limited even with KBD and wavedash (and not even all characters have a wavedash which shocked me). SC having 8 way run is definitely a lot easier than Tekkens movement, but it also allows you to approach from many more angles and with near infinite fluidity. The best example is SC2 before any super meter crap when the game was really all about utilizing the 3D movement to time and space your moves properly and using GI to Parry your opponent when you read them. Tekken and SC are a lot more different than most people think especially lower level Tekken because you have to learn and practice so much just to be able to move. Higher level Tekken on characters with good movement (and no meter crap) is a lot more like SC but still doesn't have that limitless movement capability, but it has a much more nuanced boxing game because of it so it's understandable to me now why they didn't put 8 way run in Tekken.

@in3vitableTIMING

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah 8 way run wouldn’t fit in tekken it’s structure would have to completely change. But it would be nice to have a little more fluidity in terms of movement, even “fluid” movement looks like the character is having a seizure 😂😂😂. As for SC2 and SC6 comparison another notable difference would be the short movelists which I’ve grown to appreciate. Tekken is a prime example of overweighted information. I do wish SC6 soul charge wasn’t as strong as it currently is or has a definitive feature to counteract it. But with that said SC6 is way better that 4 & 5 so happy in the direction it’s going.

@Saskaruto16

3 жыл бұрын

@@in3vitableTIMING Yeah I wish everyone in Tekken had more like Mishima level movement. A lot of characters just feel so slow and sluggish, the input delay doesn't help. Steve's movement is cool too and he feels the most SC ish movement wise, but I don't think you can give that to anyone else for obvious reasons. Yeah Tekken definitely has way too many moves. I have no idea why they don't shrink some of the bloated nonsense down. Instead of adding a new move, buff an existing useless move. Cut out a lot of the cheese strings and useless moves and Tekken would be way more manageable to learn. SC6 is definitely better than 4, 5 was underrated and I honestly played it more than 6. I have a lot of problems with 6, the high level becomes all about the meter which I absolutely despise. That was not the case in 5 where the meter was much weaker. 2 is the best by far though. Idk why when they worked to go back to their roots in multiple ways and made SC6 way closer in design to SC2 that they didn't go further and remove the meter crap and reduce the input lag to more like SC2.

@imonshrooms6866

2 жыл бұрын

Sorry, im new to tekken and my back ground is in basically every game genera than fighting games. What is sc2? Im an old rts player so my mind cant not think of anything else than star craft 2

@Saskaruto16

2 жыл бұрын

@@imonshrooms6866 SC refers to Soul Calibur. It is a 3D fighter made by the same company as Tekken, and many of the team that created SC and work on it also worked on the Tekken series. The major difference between the two is the fact that SC is a weapons based fighter. Similar to Noctis except almost all attacks use the weapon except kicks. Rather than being a 4 button fighter it is a 3 button fighter, you have horizontal attacks, vertical attacks, and kicks. It also has a parry system which let's you completely reversal the opponents attack into your plus frames. Not only that instead of Tekken movement, you are able to move in 8 directions at all times (called 8 way run), and the movement is extremely quick especially in the older games (part of the reason SC2 is the best). Because of them being closely related (especially when you don't know the major nuances between the two, many call SC a tekken rip off or sword tekken), I made the comparison when talking about the movement between the two series.

Great video, enjoyed your explanation in the second half. Well articulated.

Speaking as a trash tier player i dont think easier back stepping is what would help me out. Whats more an issue for most players is how difficult sidestepping is. Figuring out what moves can be sidestepped, which direction to step, when you need to sidewalk instead, etc. Its just so much to memorize.

@6thdim

3 жыл бұрын

Just do it more. If you’re scared of losing your rank or whatever then do it in player match and note when it works and when it doesn’t

@lucaswilliams7280

3 жыл бұрын

@@6thdim that's probably the right attitude for players who eventually don't want to be trash tier. But with the number of characters and moves to learn in this game I got to a point where the process of "try to anticipate a specific attack and then hope sidestepping works, and then scratch my head and wonder if sidestepping can't work or if my timing was off or if I stepped the wrong way" got old

@PopulotusBoogiedown

3 жыл бұрын

@@lucaswilliams7280 That's why I barely play Tekken ever.

@6thdim

3 жыл бұрын

@@lucaswilliams7280 yeah it sucks. And really, that’s due to the current online meta where you’re gonna meet a different set of characters everyday. I’m an offline player and I only see the same few characters every day. The result is that I can really play certain match ups and I really struggle against characters that I can’t find at my locals

@lucaswilliams7280

3 жыл бұрын

@@6thdim ive noticed the same thing. I dont go to locals but I used to play with my brother on a regular basis and whenever I go up against his old mains online the game feels much more "3d". But against most characters online i just dont have the match-up knowledge to really utilize sidestepping.

I honestly think the basketball example is perfect, without dribbling basketball will be less interesting to watch and play the same can be said for tekken. As for beginners my friends and I were clueless about KBD and we still had fun, in time if people want they will learn. Now I think sports and esports are vastly different and I cringe when people refer to gamers as athletes but this video drew a nice comparison.

@Carbos

3 жыл бұрын

I, for one, think it's not a really good example: dribbling changed how the whole game was played. It changed all the tactics and it changed it aesthetically in a way most people perceived as an improvement. What's being argued here is whether to make a basic movement more accessible or not. If you did, none of the viable strategies would change. You'd just make it more accessible. My impression is that most people who defend kbd do it based on sunken cost logics: all that practice would be for naught. But I'm not a big fan of minority interests influencing everyone. If you think that it's good to make basic stuff hard why don't you ask for the double button binds to be removed from the game, for example? It would just increase the incentive to use plugins and specially designed controllers, right? Same applies for the kbd: controllers like the crossup probably wouldn't exist otherwise, and their existence further complicates things. Also I guess that by making movement reasonably easier you'd free up some mental energy for the top players as well who would play slightly better.

@countlessbathory1485

3 жыл бұрын

@Carlo Bosisio my whole point is the complexity of the technique benefits the game, since it requires time to learn kbd adds enjoyment to both the player and a viewer. If movement was dumbed down It will make for a more dull viewing experience, since movement is easy then I will be less impressed with Knee or Arslan's movement. Your forgetting that the technique was discovered because people were looking to gain a upper hand, this was a strategy found that changed the game like dribbling did in basketball. Okay so your arguing we should make things more simple for beginners then let's make combos easier, let's remove complex techniques such as jet upper, instant running 2, rdc because this will make it easier for beginners. I'm using a bit of hyperbole here but keep in mind in the process of making things easier a game may lose its identity and people may end up liking and missing the harder version. Which is what happened with street fight, people like 4 more than 5 both top players and regular players alike. I'm not defending kbd because I'm a great tekken player I haven't put in the same amount of time as some people here, so no sunk cost fallacy here. if they make the tekken easier people like me who want a challenge will find an alternative game. By making tekken easier Namco will be isolating their most dedicated fans and those who want the extra challenge. Binds have existed for a while now and they are limited, if you want everyone to be able to move just as easily would you then support a bind for electrics?

@Carbos

3 жыл бұрын

@@countlessbathory1485 I don't really think that learning KBD adds enjoyment for the vast majority of current players, and surely not for droves of potential new players. Also it improves nothing, aesthetically, for the viewer. Sure, you might be in awe of a pro player's skill if you know just how hard it is, but it doesn't really look better. If anything, as I said, it's probable that the top players would get even better, if movement is made easier, so you may see even better competitive matches. I don't see how the fact that it started with an accidental discovery changes anything in the scope of our discussion so I'd say I'm disregarding the fact, not forgetting it. There is obviously a sweet spot between accessibility and challenge, for every game, but your examples are all advanced techniques that have very diminishing returns. Sure, if you put them together they may significantly improve your odds of winning matches but none of them are fundamental like movement: we're talking about a basic component that single-handedly gives your winrate a very big boost, if used properly. Believe it or not, one of the things that got me into tekken was how "easy" most moves were to perform: the moves were pretty simple and the input for most moves was very lenient, compared to some old school fighters. Staple combos are also pretty accessible, and if you pair them with solid movement, character knowledge and good opponent reads are all you need to be a very good (not competitive) player. To recap: what I feel is a good general rule in game design is give players diminishing returns on the most difficult techniques. That way you give the most hardcore players looking to get an edge on the opponent the tools they need while not requiring that amount of time and dedication from the general playerbase to be able to play well. I feel that the movement in tekken kind of violates this law. It's a basic and important skill, so I'd like to see it made widely and readily accessible and I think it would attract more people than those who would stop playing it. I'm fine with electrics: it's just the Mishimas, you can choose many other easier characters. Movement, on the other hand affects them all, there's no escaping it, in the boundaries of the game.

@countlessbathory1485

3 жыл бұрын

@Carlo Bosisio Wait dude you contradicted yourself if someone is in "awe" of Knee's movement for example then aesthetically something has been added for the viewer and the player. Learning something difficult adds a sense of sanctification I mean there are games out there which market based on difficulty. Removing the difficulty will mean a certain portion of the player base loses an element they liked, and tekken may lose it's identity. Advanced movement also exists in other games like Smash brother and Quake and it's equally as important there. Funny enough people prefer the older version of Smash Brother called Melee because it's harder, but the game is fun enough for beginners to pick up and play which like I highlighted is the same for tekken. I think you're over emphasizing KBD when I was a kid my friends and I would play not knowing about frames, KBD, throw breaks etc, and we still had fun. People can still play casually and have fun and choose to accept the challenge of learning the intermediate moves if they want to. Honestly, I think people just want everything handed to them if tekken 8 has easier movement watch has people complain about something else because fighting (games almost all of them) takes ages to master.

@Carbos

3 жыл бұрын

@@countlessbathory1485 No contradiction: you might be in awe purely on an abstract level, based on your knowledge of the game mechanics, but visually nothing changes. If you made kbd more accessible you wouldn't notice the difference just by looking at someone else playing the game. Hence aesthetically (visually) things stay unchanged. Tekken would have plenty of challenging skills to master, even if you make movement more accessible. For all the difficulty issue I already explained my opinion in the preceding post. I don't know if people want everything handed to them but I think the basic elements of a game should kinda be.

legend has it TMM still mashes the options button after every round

When I mentioned the fact that releasing the stick will "buffer" a back input, they roasted me how wrong I am with that haha I did not know it's an exclusive hardware thing. Since Tekken 7 has many pad players, they could not replicate that

@TheKidt

3 жыл бұрын

They can becourse you can realy fast let go db and hold for a split second b

Interesting to hear that fact about the KBD being an accident and how the devs reacted to it. Sakurai and his team basically had the opposite reaction for melee when players discovered l-cancelling (along with the long list of advanced tech afterwards). Effectively when Brawl came out it felt like the antithesis of melee in every aspect, and every game following would never quite measure up to melee for the sake of lowering the skill ceiling so that "everyone can feel good about playing smash". Really sad because the competitive scene really wanted a new game that would build on the really cool aspects of melee, and a game like that would not have taken anything away from the casual player. So good on Harada and team for recognizing something good and keeping it in the series.

@legendofsonic3979

Жыл бұрын

Actually L cancelling was an intended mechanic. It was originally called Z cancel and was present in Smash 64, it was even refered to in official guides in 64

3 years later and reina got a unique wavedash animation. TMM made it happen

Not to mention that offense is so much easier to learn in this game so most characters can just get all up in your face and mash strings, and you can't even backdash out of that without risking getting hit by something and taking like 25 damage at the minimum

Heyyy its so nice to see you again,thank you for your work,i have some nice electrics because of you)

I agree they should bring back the bsckdash from tekken 5 to give peoples more flexibility perhaps you should make a video compsaring the difference in range from tekken 5 ans tekken 7 evading some moves ans strings .

I get both sides of the argument for simplifying and keeping it the same. I can KBD pretty consistently thanks to the fact that I come from an FPS background so I have a controller with 4 programmable paddles. The paddles can be programmed to basically any input I want and two paddles are programmed to back and down pack respectively. After doing this, I was able to kbd consistently within 5 minutes of practice. That being said, I still get bodied because I don't have the knowledge and game sense to space properly, still gotta practice that afterall.

The thing about dribbling is that it can be learned in a few seconds. It takes a few minutes to learn the more advanced maneuvers. The skill floor is incredibly high for dribbling. That can not be said for KBD

You also have to think about how powerful a single back dash is in Tekken. In other fighting games you are not blocking while you are back dashing. With that in mind, imagine Tekken where you can cancel BD with BD, cracking open your opponent would be even harder.

@Reydriel

3 жыл бұрын

This is balanced out by the fact that the last few frames of a backdash left you vulnerable (you aren't able to block). Now (as of TTT2 iirc), you can block the entire way if you hold back during the backdash, but holding back means you can't cancel the backdash into another backdash.

i started tekken with tekken7, it's the first fighting game i've ever played and i have an handicap in my left hand so i don't have the same dexterity as normal people but i can kbd i never felt like it was too difficult and i really like it. i see those who complain about the movement system in tekken like cry babys who don't want to get good. i mean life is way harder than that so if you just can't press a sequence of buttons quickly in a video game ,what it's gonna be when you gonna face real challenges in your life?

@5lender92

2 жыл бұрын

I take it you're a fellow keyboard player? It's much harder on stick

Does this input works only with Dongpal levers? Cause I have a Samwa with octa gate and hard ring, still I don't get this input of back after releasing down back...🤷

10:18 😎big man spitting big fax right here 💯

8:44 those N64 basketball games were so fun ie NBA: Hangtime

Diff wavedash animation for the mishimas ? Thats super dupper cool man !

Korean Backdashing was too hard for me... So I became a Lei main and just spun in circles.

This is a old video but I'm a newer gen player, and the thing that appealed to me about Tekken was the correlation to actually getting into a fight lol. The difficulty and the over whelming nature is what sells it to alot of people.

As an experiment i was playing without KBD for some time, just using "bb up bb / bb down bb". Tbh before ive reacched high ranks its was more than enogh to play even in blue ranks (yaksa, ruijin, etc). And playing without kbd encreased my defence. I was using ss, ducks and simple block alot more efficiently.

If leaving the stick from down-back position and getting a free back input is a mechanical thing in the stick, why does it work the same way with a pad?

This motivated me to go the lab and practice some movement :D

reverting the movement to tekken 5's is the best solution

well it should stay this hard, simply because 1, it stops it from being spammable due to finger dexterity, and 2, it means you can hit overheads and mids while they are doing it

1:35 Reina in Tekken 8’s sparking wavedash is one my favorite things about her, you’ll love her in two years when it comes out

What helps since I suck at movement is one backdash then a jump back with or without a kick!

I would reduce backdash recovery in a way that you can cover distance faster without a cancel but KBD remains more rewarding.

Recently the fgc has been getting compared to basketball a lot which core-a has been doing for a while but still it has been getting that comparison a lot more

TMMSwe, honey. Gerald HAS to have weird basketball tangents into his videos. I think he's already done this with buffs and nerfs and the three point line. God! I love Core A gaming

Surely the intermediate stage between KBD and having no evasion is the ratchet reverse wavedash right? Still pretty fast and easier to learn hey steadies the learning curve :)

I literally just started playing tekken 7. I started 3 months ago and im starting to integrate the KBD in my games. Tekken 7 is my first fighting game. What Im basically trying to say is, is that its difficult but not so hard that you cannot learn it. If you love tekken you will push yourself to learn it as I am right now, but if backdash cancelling is just something you swear you cannot do , then tekken is not for you.

Every game has its own identity and difficulty levels. For tekken its korean backdash, cancels etc for others like SF and KOF, its extreme amount of execution.

i think the coolest way they could make wavu unique is they could give them lightning auras

Kinda off topic but I’m like mainman is divided by the amount of characters in all fighting games these days ( tekken 7, MK11 ETC) on one hand i love the idea of a medium to small roster because it gives certain characters time to shine and makes you hype for the next game in hopes of seeing your fav. But on the other hand these days its much easier to learn and explore a character which may lower the characters interest level for most. And its more profitable to do so because of DLC and most people love big rosters

7:20 basically comparing someone who made a miliion dollars through business to someone who found a briefcase of a million

Thank you! I knew it was a horrible comparison to basketball. Sorts don't have patchnotes and bugs in their system...

what happens when KBD is simplified.... go look at Macro players. Look at how annoying it would be if backdash alone was just that good. Sidestep naw that doesn't mean anything, I got a machine gun backdash. Also to anyone who thought that KBD is "BASIC MOVEMENT" doesn't know the difference between "Basic" and "Advanced". Even in other fighting games there are forms of Advanced movement. Instant air dash, Wave Dash, "L" canceling, hell even power rangers BftG has a unique wave dash called Plink dashing as it uses priority linking to allow for a better dash than wave dashing. Most arguments against about why it should be easier to do usually comes off as "i don't want to put the effort to do it." That's fine you don't need to, that being said the dev's should buff sidestep as a way for players to not need backdashing as an answer to everything (sorry conversation for another time, long story short if you knew proper sidestepping you could use that instead of backdash so long as you knew when to side step giving players an alternative to learning kbd, knowing both made you a god even now). Korean Back Dash is an Advanced movement technique, that's fine, having high skilled movement being better than regular movement is okay because it opens the game up to new possibilities. Simplifying it would take that away in the sense that now the game is balanced around this insane movement option and thus Tekken would be a different game, and not in a good way because unlike high level players. low to mid level players tend to backdash to full screen rang before they even make choice to do a damn poke. Thank you for reading my scrub quote/ted talk. I hope you all have a nice day and go back into the lab to practice that PEWGF ya TMM zealots.

I love the movement system its hard thats why we love it

I just recently got back into tekken. Used to be the arcade "bully" at the sticks when my parents were bowling(dont remember what tekken it was) its much more difficult on pad, looks like I'll have to grab an entry level set of sticks lol

1:35 This is a brilliant idea.

It’s nice to have actual skills to play and succeed at a higher level. My counter argument in defending us legacy players is how absurdly busted characters like Leroy, Fahk etc that really carry new players. My group of Tekken brethren has a button masher amongst us who doesn’t know a single combo and refuses to learn. His button mashing will get him some wins here and there depending on who he picks while also using throws and of course rage arts. There’s more than enough for new players and button mashers to have fun and win, let us have that added layer/level of play

@Phoenix-pb4sm

3 жыл бұрын

No OP character is winning with a person who doesnt know how to play the game The skill levels have to be at least in the ballpark of even for a character to give someone an unfair advantage

@BustaNAugusta

3 жыл бұрын

@@Phoenix-pb4sm I’m not saying it’s an unfair advantage to pick Leeroy, just like knowing how to or being able to KBD isn’t unfair. There’s characters that newbies can pick and have success with especially if it’s Leeroy and Fahk. Experienced players who have worked on movement/KBD have earned and deserved the ability to evade the brainless mixup pressure that’s been buffed. We love Tekken because it’s chess and not checkers, although checkers players can and will still have fun. This’s a game where not everybody can get the trophy, even though recent updates and characters have made things easier

@davidparry5310

3 жыл бұрын

@@BustaNAugusta Should the ability to neutralise mix-ups through movement be something that's reserved for elite players, though? In older games, it wasn't. Sidestepping stuff required less precision, and you could access reasonably effective horizontal movement by being moderately proficient at KBD.

@BustaNAugusta

3 жыл бұрын

@@davidparry5310 It absolutely should! Anything in life should be beneficial to those who put in the work to perfect their craft. KBD is accessible to new players too, if they choose not to put in the work and only button mash etc, then Leeroy and other characters are perfect for them. Same can be said about the combos, new players gripe about combos as they’re not able to pull them off...but then they learn how to, jus like KBDing

@davidparry5310

3 жыл бұрын

@@BustaNAugusta Effective horizontal movement isn't as accessible to less experienced players as it was in prior games, because of the nerfed backdash, which means that you have to optimise KBD for it to be serviceable, unlike in previous games. KBD has become an all-or-nothing thing, and that's what I'm saying ought to change, along with the degree of precision needed to sidestep things. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a reward for investing the time and effort into learning KBD. Im not even proposing to eliminate KBD as a prerequisite for effective horizontal movement. I'm saying that you shouldn't have to be a bloody expert at KBD for your KBD to be of some use for evading things. There should be a distinction between *effective* horizontal movement and *optimal* horizontal movement, as there was in previous games. How do I propose to restore this distinction? Quite simply: by buffing movement.

"6k attacks" Most of them are useless or situational.

@kendjacedric8813

3 жыл бұрын

You can use them as mix ups But yeah they are not all good

@thelastgogeta

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, it implies that knowledge of each of them is key rather than the game systems, game plan and core moves/situations. Everything has a place but you don't need to know everything in Bayonetta or Devil May Cry to get great results either.

@mikeg4490

3 жыл бұрын

@@kendjacedric8813 like I said situational.

@mikeg4490

3 жыл бұрын

@@thelastgogeta those aren't 1v1 games?

@thelastgogeta

3 жыл бұрын

@@mikeg4490 It doesn't change the principle when people complain about Bayonetta's movelist being too long or Dante's styles while advocating for a compressed kit while starting or getting to an intermediate level. Fighting games aren't in a vacuum where the feedback is totally unique.

laughs in Lei's "haha" step*

I just learned dribbling is the real life equivavlent to a korean backdash XD

Take a look at gears of war and how they made wall bouncing easier than ever to the point where legacy players and most of the old wall bouncing community is all but dead and gone because everyone can move the same now with ease and with the dumbing down of the execution demands for movement they had to change the tuning on weapons and their damage and how they function in battle. It has had negative residual effects on the game's identity which is why most gears players from 1-3 don't even play gears anymore. I feel like the simplification of movement in Tekken could have similar effects and I'm saying this as a new player to Tekken and fighting games in general.

@tyren818

3 жыл бұрын

Very good point! You always want to reward better players, otherwise the game dies, is a pattern i've noticed over the years.

@im.ahumbleguy1101

3 жыл бұрын

Sure but people who play tekken at the highest level (mostly) says that making the backdash a little bit compact and easy to access would be okay. If learning kbd is simple and its made more easier thats when people will start to complain. Well the truth is, its hard. But that's one of the main core of the game if you don't want to study every frame of each characters move which takes alot of time. But its not about the simplification if i want it. Just make it more evasive

@im.ahumbleguy1101

3 жыл бұрын

@@tyren818 yeah that's why tekken can't grow like other games due to its complexity. It rewards more old players and never rewards newbies who just wanted to play it casually

@DXYS95

3 жыл бұрын

Except you don't need wall bouncing to play Gears. But you do need KBD to play Tekken at any level except the "I'm 5 years old and I occasionally play against my cousin" level. It's not the same thing, at all. Forward wave dashing is more comparable to wall bouncing: you don't need it to play the game, in fact you can just dash forward. But, if you take the time to learn how to execute it, your offense will be stronger since you cannot be sidestepped

@tyren818

3 жыл бұрын

@@im.ahumbleguy1101 what are you talking about? tekken has grown so much and is probably the most played fighting game right now. Tekken can never be as big numbers like fortnite, apex legends if that is what you mean! Fighting games are just not as big as they were in 90's.

Now we need Core-A-Gaming vs TMM 😎

I know this might sound stupid but those small steps can often save ur life in a match

What they could do is improve the movement of the gameplay itself. Like walking is a bit faster or the initial backdash has more range while keeping KBD in.

Just had my very first person rage quit against me tekken 7, thank u main man

Ok, so that particular accident might have existed because of an incident. My incident story version would be like, Once two Mishima players were playing TK3 (Lets say Jin mirror) one of players left the game just to grab the soda. A 3rd friend saw the arcade cabinet unattended and thought his friend was playing on P2 but he was playing on P1. So when he started doing wavedashes, that resulted into a quick backdashes (Mishima specific backdash) This specific way of doing backdash works on every character with the exception of characters like Paul,Bryan,Nina etc Basically any character that does a back sway wouldn't do this Mishima specific backdash. I hope it make sense to you guys! As usual, a great video TMM!

Does any body that's play controller switch to an arcade stick get hand pains or is it just me I've notice when ever I want to practice with a stick for a while I start to get hand pains so I've just stop using stick completely.

@themonoloco8245

3 жыл бұрын

The same thing happens to me when I use a mouse and keyboard when ever I want play pc only games.

KBD is available for everyone but you have to work for it. Some will be more talented then others, some will have some extra time to put into their craft, some will not have either but will practice none the less. That's basically life.

Now on a more important note, why is Xiaoyu wearing a jock strap? :o

I HOPE YOU ARE DOING AWESOME AS ALWAYS MAINMAN!!! 🥊💀❤️

First pause of the video where TMM explains KBD accident, here I am wondering if Xiaoyou is wearing a crotch guard.... 🤔

I use a japanese stick it doesn't have spring type like a korean lever so the input feel is definitely different

@gamingcertified4255

2 жыл бұрын

japanese lever have springs korean lever have silicone grommet

When i play melee with my boi whos much better than me and he wave dashes around to outplay my vanilla ass, im never mad its always hype

Idk, for me starting T7, movement was never and issue. For me, learning all the match ups was the hardest part. It just takes so long to learn all the different moves. However, a backdash can be easily practiced; learning 50 match ups takes way longer and is a harder and more monumental undertaking than backdashing.

little late but I think its important to remember that kbd is not basic movement at all. it is an advanced technique like barrier blocking in blazblue or guilty gear, wavedashes in Marvel/skullgirls, and option selects in a game like third strike. You don't need to learn these right away to compete. a backdash into a sidestep or an attack will do at first. If you take things in steps like any other competitive anything or skill in general it doesnt have to be so overwhelming. I do think that a single backdash should be stronger to better facilitate this though.

if a korean back dashes but it isn't a korean back dash, what do we call it

@neilzx_

3 жыл бұрын

A human back dash

I don't know kbd and i've been practicing for a long time but i still don't want it to be easy.

I've been saying this ever since I heard about this argument: Just make the regular back dash recovery a little shorter. Enough that it won't be as fast or even as precise as the KBD since you can control how far you backdash with KBD, but faster than what we have now. That way it becomes an effective retreating tool, but not as effective for whiff punishment since you could possibly overshoot your backdash and miss your attack. If I could make a music analogy: right now KBD feels like a 4/4 time signature 60 bpm. They could easily bump it up to a 4/4 80bpm and it would instantly be more effective.

The one Tekken movement I tend to struggle. The Korean Back dash. Not easy on a D-pad. Still working on it.

@ryanhass8716

3 жыл бұрын

Just here hoping you have the kbd under control, it just takes practice!

@lwandomadikizela2213

3 жыл бұрын

@@ryanhass8716 Getting there. Slowly but surely mastering it.

Should watch core a gamings vid on why it’s always better to buff rather than nurf

Yes, air dashers have dashes as a distuingishing move but they aren't hard af to do.

KBD and wavedash is Tekken at this point just as instant running moves. Yeah they're difficult at first you're going to need to practice them but thats why they're that rewarding! That extra set of skills to give you an edge against someone who doesn't bother labbing. Tekken is a easy game to pick up and difficult to master and it should stay that way. You get out of fighting games what you put into them. I think that extra dedication is what keeps loyal fans around for years.

@WastePlace

3 жыл бұрын

I’m fairly new(only started on Tekken 7 a year ago) and idk if it’s easy to pick up. That part is debatable, I think it’s easier to pick up if you already enjoy other fighting games but even then it’s a much different fighting game from the mainstream stuff like street fighter and mortal kombat. It definitely is easier for returning Tekken fans but without any previous fighting game experience I can see why it’d be frustrating and would hurt my motivation to continue learning it

@spiritualopportunism4585

3 жыл бұрын

@@WastePlace yup

@mikeg4490

3 жыл бұрын

@@WastePlace with all the resources available online you can teach yourself match-ups and techniques. With online communities like discord you can find reliable and friendly sparring partners to give you feedback. I think ppl just lose focus because they don't want to lose often at first or plateau every once in a while. Just bite down on your mouth piece and keep pushing! But keep in mind this all comes down to how much effort you want to put into the game.

Maybe if they had a wave dash and Korean back dash tutorial in training, it wouldn't be as much of an issue.

Thumbnail looks like COREA GAME. Like korea is Corea in spanish lmfaoo

@vDeadbolt

3 жыл бұрын

Core-a is a pun on Korea since Gerald is Korean. It's spelled "Corea" in Korean

I'm pretty sure you could half the recovery time of a normal back dash and the KBD would still cover twice as much distance. Buffing basic movement would hardly make the KBD useless.

Wait so if you’re playing on pad how would the KBD apply? Because the lever system isn’t the same in a pad as it is in a stick

@alejandrogarriga8763

3 жыл бұрын

Let go of down before back

@ablackguy458

3 жыл бұрын

It depends if you're using the D-pad or Analog stick. In my experience with how I learned it it would be the same motion as wave dashing for a Korean backdash on D-pad. I can't for the life of me do it on Analog stick but it should work just as fine. Backdashing in this motion works for all characters except for Bryan and Paul like Main Man mentioned because of their back sway so I wouldn't be bothered to learn it if you don't play those 2 characters specifically. It's easier on D-pad by inputting a back dash (back, back) ⬅️⬅️ and interrupting it with a quarter circle back motion (down, down back, back) ⬇️↙️⬅️ and repeating it. Practicing this motion slowly then quickly will give you a reliable back dash with somewhat less execution. But you have to take into consideration that some characters have a terrible back dash like Akuma and Gigas for example

@vyrawllxo300

3 жыл бұрын

@@ablackguy458 I know the reverse wavedash thing, I also play on D-pad, I play Miguel, and even with that motion it’s still difficult cuz Miguel’s crouch is so awkward.

@alejandrogarriga8763

3 жыл бұрын

The notation is the same so just go into training mode and make sure you're doing ⬅️↙️⬅️ ⬅️↙️⬅️ ⬅️↙️⬅️ start slow and eventually speed up you'll get it soon enough

@ablackguy458

3 жыл бұрын

@@vyrawllxo300 sorry I figured you were new to it. Anyway I wouldn't know if it works in Miguel's case but it should work in the way I mentioned

Imo every fighting game has a range of difficulty. Some games are easier or harder than others depending who you ask. KBD or wavedash isn't needed to play at a casual level to enjoy but I like the fact it's a skill that separates casuals, better skilled players and pro players depending if they're willing to master these skills. Soul Calibur is my 2nd favorite series and trust me you don't want to continue the path of over simplifying fighting games like they did with SC6. Better tutorials- actually teach the KBD or wave dash because im sure there's green or yellow ranks that have no idea what those are. Free frame data, video tutorials for easier explanations for every characters strengths and weaknesses. Stop dumbing down fighting games and let's teach the newest generation of potential fighters how to fight.

@bludika

3 жыл бұрын

but thats also the problem with today's gamers, they think everything has to come easy or somebody has to show it to you like a child learning his ABC's. Before youtube and google and discord etc existed, people learned it by themselves or through people and grinded, but now days people want everything to come easy even though there is TONS AND TONS resource online, it should actually be MUCH easier to learn how to play tekken or any type of game today than 10-15 years ago, yet people STILL complain, so it's just the mentality of gamers and people today, NOT the game, and I agree completely, they need to STOP dumbing down the game.

@syaredzaashrafi1101

3 жыл бұрын

​@@bludika ikr. i remember all my childhood games back then being superhard. the older games back then are super challenging but now they intended to make games more easy

@disruptor6550

3 жыл бұрын

@@syaredzaashrafi1101 Yeah agreed 100%. Back in the days games were challenging. When internet wasn't a thing yet, you had to solve things on your own. If you got stuck, well, tough luck. If you couldn't progress then all you could do is either keep trying to figure it out, or ask people you know if they could help you. Maybe you were fortunate enough to find a video game magazine where they'd have guides for some games, but that's it. And people were fine with that, because that's what gaming was back in the days. It was challenging and you really had to put effort into games to actually beat them. Nobody complained about that. But with time internet became a thing, and communication and technology improved drastically. People started getting used to this new comfort, and so this generation was born, that wants to have everything handed to them on a silver platter. Nowadays players want to be guided by a hand while playing a game, and start complaining if they have to press more than one button to perform an action, or complain that they need to actually think to progress. Because of this type of people, game developers are kinda forced to create their games in such a dumbed down way in order to have good sales. Because otherwise people will see the game as too difficult and will give up playing it (or not even start in the first place). Games didn't become like this because of the "evil" devs. They became like this because of us, the consumers. We are at fault. I do not envy today's generation because they didn't get to exprience the TRUE gaming I did many years ago. Nowadays games are mostly just movies with a few clicks required here and there, which is a shame. I'm a proud hardcore old school gamer, but I'm afraid that my type of gamer will at some point be extinct. What a sad thought...

@bludika

3 жыл бұрын

@@disruptor6550 yea, exactly, that's why i can't ever take complaints about Tekken seriously regarding "THERE IS NO TUTORIAL, THE GAME IS SO HARD AND DEVELOPERS DON'T WANT TO HELP NEWCOMERS" lol...like dude, not every single thing HAS to be in-game. I hear it all the time with these people going "I shouldn't have to look up on the internet and youtube etc to learn the game, it should be in the game" , but why does everything need to be in-game for people to learn shit? I've had to look up things for other genre games like Metal Gear Solid, or Last of US, etc to find things out when i couldn't before or how to find something specific, just what is wrong with that? takes me 2 seconds to look up on something on youtube and it's ALL right there. It's the same for Tekken, there are TONS and TONS of well edited, professional looking tutorials on youtube made by awesome Tekken content creators like Peter Y Mao and many others, there is absolutely no excuse for people to not look it up, people are on their iPhones, iPad, and their computers all day, yet they have a problem when they're told to go look it up on youtube, that part i don't understand, even for a long time tekken player like myself, i still look things up when it's something specific or a match up specific info, etc, and there's nothing wrong with that. People who don't even bother to look up on youtube for something as basic as "how to improve defense in tekken 7" will never do shit even if Tekken had the best tutorial ever, that kind of attitude is just made to only complain about how he can't win with zero effort put in.

@mychaeljones7526

3 жыл бұрын

Soul Calibur 6 is not easy

To be fair. If we are rounding its more like 200 moves for every character, not just 100

@RJALEXANDER777

3 жыл бұрын

Add strings to the picture and it gets even more complex. With each attack of the string having multiple properties and appropriate responses, depending on how many moves of the string the opponent decides to use. And then some strings have points where the timing can be delayed, which a player may have to keep account of.

Bryan sways are a 3 way mixups accessing qcb 3 qcb4 qcb2,4 mixing up with kbd makes it interesting Nina's hayashida step is more evasive check it out her in tekken 4 this step alone make Nina counter Steve and I don't know Paul but he should also access qcb moves by theory. Mixing sways with kbd creates interesting mind games imo

0:42 *foreshadowing*

If they make it easier after I got used to it with the ps4 controller I'm going to cry.

I think its pretty good and fair to make the basic parts of the game more simple, more accesible for newcomers. As long as the top level play remains as hard as it is, so even the pro's cant reach the skill ceiling, and thus the best player can always differenciate by making use of their advantage, it will be all good. What I mean is, a game wont be dumbed down by just making the begginer part of the game more accesible. If they made the whole game easy, yes, it would be dumbed down, and anyone could play like Knee; but just easing the basics, and keeping the really advanced stuff hard, will be good for the game. And backdashing is part of the basics, is basic movement.

The point of the video was basketball as we know it today is a rule exploit just like the korean backdash in tekken or the bunnyhop in csgo ! Unintended mechanics turn into core mechanics !