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You could always print out the maps instead of drawing them if you want to save time during the session. I use black pieces of card to cover areas they haven't been yet.

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

Interesting... Might try that. 😁

@TheodoreMinick

4 жыл бұрын

I have it easy. My DoTMM group is online, so I just upload the map. Feel you on the preparation, though.

@guilla5

4 жыл бұрын

In my case, between the dm I take turns dming with and me, we developed a desktop app that allows us to show the map with a fog of war element on top`of it and the dm can slowly uncover it as the party explores the dungeon, so it's like a virtual table top, but local in the group it's known as the Dungeon Master Squire as it has another set of tools to create content with.

@piece1309

4 жыл бұрын

I also pre print mine. Usually about 5 bucks for 24*32 print black and white. Also you can by easel pad sized paper with grids and pre draw maps on them and use the black paper trick.

@KILLERGUNZ27

4 жыл бұрын

I do the same thing except I draw my own maps on a battle map and use printer paper to cover sections they haven't been in

Protip fpr the minmap/hud: Draw it out ahead of time and then cut it up into each room. Hand your players a new room when they enter it and let them piece the map together. It'll give them the feeling of building their own map and easily track their progression. I'd honestly recommend doing this for smaller dungeons too.

@dynestis2875

2 жыл бұрын

Oh I like that! Saves me the hassle of covering up a huge map with black paper too!

@lim-dulspaladin50

9 ай бұрын

That's a great idea, you could tweak each cut piece by the normal vision your party uses

"Hey, idiot! This is why everything takes so long! Remember the dungeon we're in?" "Ha ha ha ha...What dungeon?" The barbarian's had some good punch lines, but that one takes the cake.

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

I'm really glad you like that dude. In all honesty when I watched today's skit this morning I was kind of thinking the skit was a little flat and maybe not as good as other ones. But hey if you're happy that makes me happy. :-)

@cthulhufhtagn2483

4 жыл бұрын

@@theDMLair Honestly, they're going to have to get a lot worse than that to be boring. It was longer than usual, but I think the idea that this whole gang of Luke clones gets together once a month to record skits, but the barbarian hasn't noticed, is amazing. Also that the rogue knows that the dungeon-breaking spells video exists, but nobody else does because they didn't film a skit. Keep up the good work!

When my group "found the stars to the 2nd level" during a dungeon crawl, the DM just asked us to ignore it for now, and come back to it later. No one had a problem with that, and we just continued to explore the 1st level.

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

I mean that's cool right if it works. In my case the players came up with a really clever way to go to the boss to talk to him. Because of social interaction they just killed it. And so they they pretty much got to go to the second level there was no way around it. The only way to ask them not to go down to the second level of would be to ignore all of the clever work they put into role-playing. But yeah if you can just ask him to ignore it then that's better for sure.

@stevegruber4724

2 жыл бұрын

my group plays too many video games, so we're always "hmmm, that looks like the way out but we haven't explored everything yet, so let's come back"

@bruteunicorn1345

2 жыл бұрын

i had this happen in one of my games as well. I just said "It's locked" and that they would need to find the key.

@Jeffs40K

Ай бұрын

he clearly had not read about next level yet, OR you had missed soemthign he needed you to find, I woudl just put magical seal on it, and you need a item to Open it.

Digital dnd works for the second part as well, you can have all your monsters and traps on the dm layer, and brief notes, at least on roll20

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

Yes that's what I do. I put all of my monsters on the map outside of the dynamic lighting and then when I need them I drag them into the room.

You must be reading my campaign notes. My players are currently in my version of Undermountain, and about to hit a big, sprawling cavern layer with many directions to go. You're always posting the content I need when I need it.

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

Oh no he's on to me... No, no, I did not hack your computer... I swear. 😬 Always happy to help! 😁

If you are going to run a large dungeon devide it up it several parts with their own stories and themes that eventually feed back into an overarching theme and story

In the early editions of the game, "The Mapper" was an important role in the party. We stuck to that as a hard and fast "Rule" for weeks, probably even months, when I first started playing... It was only when my dungeon developed a "cave system" level that I decided that it was not going to work. The whole "the dungeon opens into a 30 feet by 30 feet square room, with a door in the middle of the north and east walls..." stuff was OK, even if there was often discrepancy over "the tunnel leads 40 feet at which point it turns to the left," type descriptions. ("So... is it 40 feet long with the turn starting 30' down the left wall, or 50 feet long with the tunnel turning at the 40 feet mark???") Caverns was a whole new level of crazy... Me: "The tunnel curves back by about... er 30 degrees... then narrows to about 5 feet for about 6 feet before twisting back round to the left in a sort of... horseshoe shape that's about 40 feet in total, broadening out again to about 10 feet...." Mapper: "I quit! You can take this map, roll it tight and shove it up..." I've been drawing maps ever since. I like to spend time playing the game...

Welcome to the dungeon, we got fun and games, Learn to navigate, my friend, or you'll feel some pain! There is some treasure here you'll find, when you get in deep You'll bag it up, and turn to leave, then you'll all say (BLEEP!!) In the dungeon, welcome to my dungeon! Watch me lower your......HP, P...P! Uh, uh..wanna hear your healer scream! You know where you are? You're in the trapped room, baby! You're gonna diiiiiie!! Welcome to the dungeon, take it room by room If you want that shiny stuff, you're gonna face your doom! And you got a very strong pally, with plenty of AC But it won't mean a thing, 'cause the rust monster's free! In the dungeon, runnin' through my dungeon! I,I...I'm going for TKP! (...I had too much fun writing this!)

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

Awesome! 😁

@luckycapgaming5957

4 жыл бұрын

It’s gonna bring you down!

@Aconspiracyofravens1

4 жыл бұрын

This song is great but I think it’s tpk not tkp

@zimmejoc

4 жыл бұрын

This comment does not have anywhere near enough thumbs up.

Prep 5 to 7ish rooms, and a few corridors that connect them. Then just kinda fudge it and have the players encounter them in the order you want them to. Works well with a sprawling maze or caverns, adjust the connecting corridors,tunnel ect to the size and shape needed, inthe end all paths lead to the final room and then the "stairs" to the next level. behind the screen that's where the magic happens :)

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

Yes, great point. I'd want to adjust that beforehand to avoid getting confused myself if I were to adjust it on the fly. The only thing is that liner dungeons feel, well, linear. Whereas a non-linear dungeon is probably more interesting to the players. Which brings us back to adjusting on the fly and only creating the illusion of a non-linear dungeon. :D

@duhg599

4 жыл бұрын

So the players’ choices don’t really matter. This is not a good idea. Here’s a better idea: stock the dungeon with monsters & treasure, write down 2-4 interesting details that PCs can inspect in most rooms, and write it all down in the dungeon key. Make a wandering encounters table that doesn’t suck. Include things in the dungeon the party can: 1) experiment with; 2) talk to; 3) steal; 4) find only if they’re clever, but it’s okay if they miss it; 5) use in a helpful way. While running the dungeon, give hints about what’s in each room so the players can make meaningful choices, including avoiding encounters. Let their choices have consequences. Don’t create the illusion of choice - give actual choices.

@rdmrdm2659

3 жыл бұрын

@@duhg599 so long as many choices matter significantly not every single choice has to matter. Magician’s force for some elements works just fine so long as the story can still be influenced in other ways.

My thought process: If I can't fit it on one sheet of graph paper, it's really not worthwhile

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

That is a 100% legit way to do it. I've created several dungeons that way and man doesn't make my life easy.

@elijahhickey4573

4 жыл бұрын

good idea. I usually just scale the map down or do sections to make a sort of multi-section campaign.

@erad3035

3 жыл бұрын

Ultra linear dungeons may be slightly easier to run, byt they're terrible design and immersion destroying for a lot of players the moment they realize they're being funneled from one scene to the next. Linear works, even mandatory, in some cases but I'm very careful in using that method of dungeon building.

@Prengle

2 жыл бұрын

@@erad3035 Who said anything about linearity? Small =! linear.

@erad3035

2 жыл бұрын

@@Prengle to be frank, I'm not sure why my reply is here. I think I was responding to someone else and put it in the wrong place.

I'm with you on the problems of large dungeons, 1 thing I've done in the past is if the players find the stairs down I drop them into a random room on the same dungeon floor and use that as the "next level". The players don't know the difference and I don't have as much wasted prep. The other thing I've done is take that big dungeon and split it up. Different sections can be different floors or whole new dungeons they travel to get to. For the description I go into more detail on the general dungeon look, feel, smell, sounds when they enter and that sets up the mundane travel portions for them, I then do 2 or 3 sensory descriptors for each room IF they're different from the general ones I mentioned upon entering.

@-volskeoko-5513

4 жыл бұрын

Noice idea with "the stairs to the same floor"!

I’ve had a group draw the map as I describe it on a graph paper with great results. I will say they are player of the 80s so maybe a bit more used to that style.

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

Yes I think it was much more common in the old days for players to draw Maps. I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just saying that take a lot more time than at the dungeon master just does it himself. So you're using Gametime to draw the map and for some groups that might not be the best use of their game time. That is some groups might prefer to use that time doing other things then drawing a map. But if your group likes that then Rock on. Because for some people that's part of the game and they do enjoy it.

I homebrewed my own mega dungeon and found the best way was to set up zones (normally 4) for each level With each level having its feel and each zone adding something to it the players never got bored and the regular shift in terrain and description kept them on edge

@taragnor

4 жыл бұрын

I mean with a megadungeon, I feel like you tell the PCs what they're getting into beforehand, and it works well. It's more when they expect a "normal" adventure and come upon this giant dungeon where they tend to feel lost and upset. If they know they're doing a megadungeon, they kinda know what to expect.

@malkavian2

4 жыл бұрын

taragnor even when folks are expecting a normal adventure as long as the dungeon is filled with awesome plot elements and not just boot the door and kill encounters folks will have a great time

@buttmunchmcnugget328

3 жыл бұрын

@@taragnor Agreed. I had such a game where they were well aware that after level 5 it would become a mega-dungeon delve. I did a very Sword Art Online take and had it be 69 levels deep, each a smaller dungeon in its own right with growing and evolving themes and a consistant feeling climbing higher in the tower-like dungeon, but always being returned to the first floor between, which had become a large Hub-City for the many generations who had tried and failed to ascend. It all became far more obscure as a dungeon, but none of it ever would have worked if i had just sprung it on to a group not ready or willing for that kind of game.

I made myself the party map drawer for the first big dungeon when we started playing online after COVID. Our DM would describe it to me as we went, and I'd draw it out at my house in notebook paper to help give the party direction. I was to cheap to buy grid paper. After we'd clear a level, he would show us the whole map on his shared screen. It was cool to see how close or far I came to the real map.

I dont know how I never thought of a mini map! Great idea!

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

No problem dude. The trick is drawing the mini-map on a piece of paper but the players can take with them or the dungeon master can keep for them. Then in the next game session you reference that same piece of paper and just keep adding to it.

This is precisely why I find homebrew easier than modules, though I like large-ish (not gargantuan) dungeons and so do those I play with.

Love your thoughts on this, mate. I'm glad I've run through Lost mine of the Phandelver as a player, as I'm going through it as a DM. That wave echo cave can be big and I think it will take a lot of sessions of 3-4 hours. Good tips, thanks champ

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

No problem! Hope LMoP goes well for you!

Thank you! I’ve dm’d a few times, but I’m running my first full home brew campaign. I had no idea how to navigate the map with the players. This was exactly what I needed

I'm preparing for my first session of Pathfinder in a week or two and your videos have been immensely helpful. Many thanks!

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

Awesome! You are very welcome. 😁 If you're just getting into DMing, feel free to join my Discord. Lots of folks there are happy to help with any questions and whatnot.

We used to make the players do the player map. Yes, the player map often had issues. We explained it as the PCs not laying out the 10 ft pole and actually measuring as they went and thus there was significant error. If the players didn't map, I didn't draw it for them. they had to explore their way back out. I ran a true random generation dungeon, rolling dice for the passages and rooms. The players didn't map and I didn't either. They turned around to try going out and I said: "It seems that 40 ft behind you the passage has been blocked. They had no way to get around it so they had to keep going until they found stairs up 3 levels, by random generation rolls. They never failed to map again.

@DavidMiller-dt8mx

4 жыл бұрын

I remember those days...players felt less entitled, that's for sure!

Great advice here! been watching your vids off and on, but now finding myself watching more and more. Loving the effort and can see the love you have for the craft of being a DM. Side note: The only time I run a big (not nearly as big as most modules) dungeon, will be the final dungeon of a story arc. Even then there are a maximum of 10 encounters (not all of which are combat of course). Most dungeons I run have had 5 - 6 encounters. If there isn't a main big boss fight coming at the end of a dungeon (and they're just there to grab an artifact/captive/dog whistle/whatever) it can start to become a drag if you push too much on them. No one wants to be stuck in a B-plot dungeon for more than 2 sessions. People got stuff to sell and merchants to threaten. Anyway rant over. Again, loving the vids!

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

Glad you're enjoying the content! 😀 Yeah, I don't run super long dungeon much either for similar reasons. But they are easier when I create them myself. That's for sure.

But Luke… Great video, love to hear your advice on all things DM. Anyway when you mentioned highlighting parts of the adventure I literally said out loud “I do that!” Monsters, traps treasure secret doors, development, tactics, descriptions I think are important…they all get there own color. Additionally, I’ll breeze through an adventure once about three weeks before running it, then read it again following the map one week before so I have a pretty good IDEA of what’s going on. Keep the videos coming!!

R20 is really useful for large dungeons. One thing I keep doing is adding text on the GM layer (only I can see) on each room, it makes sure I don't forget important details nor have to look up trap damage/DC

@buttmunchmcnugget328

3 жыл бұрын

Great idea, i think i will start doing this from now on. Just had a lackluster boss fight all because i missed my opportunity to counterspell an incoming Hold Monster and thats all she wrote... a "Dont forget Counterspell" note would have been quite helpful

Phew, thought I was going crazy reading Against The Giants too. Had the exact same thoughts on how many repetetive monsters there were, plus how complex the map was. I can't imagine trying to remember all those rooms and encounters at the table.

@theDMLair

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah...it took lots of prep and improv to run. Don't recommend. 😂

I've never ran a premade module (I always make stuff myself), and I make tons of notes to never look at those. It's like... an exercise to figure stuff out and then I just never look at my notes besides names and stuff. But it lends to moments where I've forgotten something without realising and then it's just a mess :D

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

Dude, that you just said -- yeah, that's totally me, too. lol

@tridan111

4 жыл бұрын

You, my good friend, are my DM dungeon-running twin I believe The amount of times I thought to myself "Nah I don't need to write this down" and then once they enter a room/wing I just panic on the spot because I really did need to write that down is uncountable and I've only been DMing for a year

@buttponcho101

4 жыл бұрын

@@tridan111 yeeh and then you desperately think whilst trying to look as if it's all fine and you know it all already :D Lol'd at the name btw

Some modules can have really lengthy dungeons, so this helps a lot. I realized the levels of Dungeon of the Mad Mage take too long, so my solution is to remove small encounters that aren’t important to the story. Yeah, there’ll be a lot of empty space, but I can always fill that empty space with descriptions to hint at things to come instead of having another nuisance combat.

I’ve had to run a large dungeon before and let me tell you, it was a HUGE pain in the butt! It was 2 levels with 50+ rooms and it was non-linear!! While I was running it, I was biting my fingernails hoping my players wouldn’t find the stairs too quickly! I had to read through both levels, plan everything out, choose which monsters would be where, and flesh the whole thing out! It took me several days to do it. I think large dungeons should be left to more experienced DMs

I finally read all of "The Curse of Strahd". OMG... So much to remember! I don't know how you DMs do it, but more power to you!

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

It's a lot of work! That's how we do it. 😂

I love your channel I have been watching it a lot getting refreshers now that two of my daughters want to learn how to play.

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

Oh that's awesome! How old are they?

@MonkeyJedi99

4 жыл бұрын

@@theDMLair That borders on a ASL request, y'all.

Some additional suggestions: -Even if you're playing in person, use a VTT with fog of war. Yeah everyone may be looking at their laptops or tablets, but it's just so much easier than coping with old skool mapping (and if you must do that, don't worry too much about inaccuracies). You can also fog of war areas they haven't visited in a while, representing the fact that things may have changed. -Consolidate encounters that have a bunch of monsters dispersed in penny packets. You can just have them show up as reinforcements over the course of a few rounds in a more dramatic encounter that feels dynamic and meaningful, not just a bunch of chumps that are segmented into rooms. -Don't have everything appear on the same scale. For example, have a different set of connected rooms with a more abstract set of pathways among them. That way you don't have to have a giant map that encompasses everything. On a VTT, you have four more detailed rooms with planned, interesting encounters and can have an overview map to allow the PCs to move around. -Cull rooms from the map. Back in the old days, you just didn't want to leave any part of the graph paper empty. That stuff was precious! But now, no, leave some of the rooms in the fog of war and just nuke them. Or make them empty and let the PCs know quickly that they're empty. (Empty rooms aren't totally useless, they might be used by the PCs or monsters later.) -Keep track of time in an abstract way. I'm thinking of how to do this but one way would be to have searching a room take 10 minutes. Then resolve it with rolls. No need to RP every room out! -A bit of out of character "friendly advice from the DM" can help keep the PCs from going into areas that aren't totally worked out or which will kill the PCs. You can also have walls or the like there. -Don't sweat the small stuff. If you forget some monsters or treasure, just put it somewhere else or drop it.

one extra tip i have to give is that if you want to run a large dungeon, dont just fill it with monsters, traps and treasures, try to include narrative, plot proggression, discovery and different kinds of interactions that progress or expand the story and the game world

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

Yes! 100% yes. A large dungeon that is only full of fights and traps and stuff gets a really lame really fast. There needs to be other stuff. Social interactions. Exploration. Stuff that makes players think stuff that expands like you said the narrative in the plot progression. You got to have that stuff in there for sure.

I will say, I had a situation once where my players were navigating a maze. The first turn or two I simply described “you come to a T intersection, what do you do?”. My one player rolled his eyes and said “what, no map?”, so I asked if he had a cartography set. He did, so I passive aggressively tossed a pencil and blank graph paper towards him and said “cool, you’re the map”. It was really awesome watching him draw almost identically the maze I had in front of me and label certain parts/rooms/cave ins with his own nicknames. Obviously not for everyone, but don’t underestimate your players!

Glad to see another video

When I ran Mad Mage, my players made it to the stairs of level 1 without encountering anything. They took all the right turns to not explore any rooms off the path to the stairs. They ignored the revenant dude in the hole. They only went into two rooms on the second level and took the stairs to Saurgoth. I wanted to push them into a river IRL.

In my current campaign, I have self-built everything in the world. I have about 35 years of experience to lean on, so that helps, as does having a lot of notes on a laptop to refer to. Anyway, About a year or so ago, I ran a huge scenario for the party that was a cavern/dungeon/former Dwarven city delved into a lone mountain. They were chasing an elder vampire who had several months to stock and set the place with minions and traps. Like you, I made the maps on graph paper and wrote copious notes on the maps for all 12 (?) levels of the complex. Each level was a different mini-boss in charge of a group of underground baddies (one level was a group of underground halflings who wanted nothing to do with the fight, once the party showed they were tough enough to have a shot at killing the big-bad). Each map had a stat block sheet (chart in a word document) for me to track damage done and the attacks and abilities of the NPCs. The loot was a single sheet of paper with a loot block per enemy group or notable bad guy, with the boss vampire's loot being most of the items. - It took my players eleven 5-8 hour sessions of play (we chat and sidetrack a lot, so actual play time varies) to get to and defeat the boss vampire. They had a blast, even the player whose dwarf died to the boss vampire. - - - I don't do big dungeons often, as that one took weeks to put together. Most of the time I run one or two session crawls that I don't even prep for.

What I do with big dungeons is print out the map and laminate it. The. You can shade in the whole thing with dry erase markers and erase it bit by bit as the adventurers work through it! If they take a long rest and don’t have someone with keen mind I’ll even re-shade some areas as they forget where they were

I'm running Rappan Athuk right now... thank you so much for this vid :)

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

You got it! Happy to help. 😁

This is awesome, thanks!

I don’t run modules but Homebrew dungeons and world. Good ideas though, good video. Yes the DM has to prepare.

Thats why I like Mike's full detail color maps... i can visually describe it and if I forget just using the drawing can run it.

Our party is currently at level 10. When they were level 5, I had them run a FULL SCALE version of "The Sunken Temple" from World of Warcraft. It was MASSIVE. It took them a 3-4 weeks of sessions to make it through, but they did OK. Then, I had this BRILLIANT plan to use "Dawn of the Overmind", only running it backwards, and re-engineering it from the lowest levels up. It was even bigger than Sunken Temple, but it was also a way to wrap part of the plot around one of the party members specifically, and they'd have a guide as well to help them out. Two things happened: 1. table drama, 2. never wrap an entire arc around a player. The character's player.....left the table. Long story, won't go into it, but he never came back. My ENTIRE campaign arc was wrapped around it, and as such, as they worked their way out, now without a guide (who had no point without that character there), they wandered. A lot. Six. MONTHS of game time. For a single dungeon. "Stop running large dungeons." Lesson learned. This group does NOT do dungeon crawls well. We don't do that any more.

Can someone tell me why this channel doesn't have as many subs as the big DM channels. I don't understand. This channel is gold, so glad I found it

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks dude! I'm working at bribing the right people. In the meantime, keep cranking out videos. 😁

Yeah, I'm in the boat of "print the entire map". I just divide it up by rooms, cut up some pages and tape them to others to keep rooms together. Then print the entire thing onto a normal piece of paper to show the sheer size difference. When they get to another room/hallway, I place down another part of the map. Digital maps are amazing when playing online as long as you get them right. But the most important part is preparation which is hard.

I really like making dungeons complicated, keeps my players on their toes. But, even though I have different themed dungeons galore, I focus more on Roleplay.

@kevynhansyn2902

4 жыл бұрын

I did that this past weekend, and i scared the hell out of the players. Their not finished it yet, but for the large size, they think their almost done.....nope. it felt great to scare them when they brag on how Buff and powerful they are.

@mirjanastevanovic-radojevi6432

4 жыл бұрын

@@kevynhansyn2902 Thats what we like to call, karma. Do you have a theme for your dungeons, like water temple, heck temple, sky palace, or do you like good 'ol stone?

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah I feel like when you make the large dungeon yourself it's a lot easier than when you're trying to run one from a module. I'm working on a dungeon right now that's pretty long but it won't be that bad to run because I'm making it myself.

@mirjanastevanovic-radojevi6432

4 жыл бұрын

@@theDMLair ooh, i would like to know all the joocee detail.

This is an amazing video I plan to reference a few times. The main reason I need this is for a homebrewed campaign I’ll be running. Some of the later game areas are going to be decently large (one is an underground cave network that leads to a gate the players have to reach, and the other will be a labyrinthine cube of sorts, with various earthy terrains inside (so deserts, mountains, hills and fields), as it will br the elemental plane of earth in my campaign. Ambitious second option there, which id my big reason for needing this video. I’ll probably try to simplify it slightly, so that it’s still a labyrinth of sorts, but it’s only like that because of the soze of each “terrain room”. But it’ll be far from boring, as, just like the other three elemental planes, I’ll likey make random rolls to determine if something will jump out after the players. Since it’s earth, it’ll be various earth based elementals and monsters. Giant scorpion-taurs (monsterous all around), minotaurs, large beasts. That kind of thing. Each plane will also end with a fight against an immortal/semi-immortal(as in, self-reincarnating) guardian creature too, protecting a relic given by their makers. Most dungeons are going to be a max of 2-3 floors, each with no more than 5 rooms though, to try and limit it the sizes to only 1-2 sessions of exploration, unless the players seem insistent to study it thoroughly. Then there might be secret areas as well

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

Those are big dungeons. When I homebrew dungeons I usually get carried away and end up with large ones myself. Lol 😂

Great stuff friend 👏 👍

I have only been playing D&D slightly less than a year, and DMing since Jan. (preparing to DM since November 19). I learned basics as a player, and then read and watched vids to learn the game fairly well. Of course, always learning more :P Anyways, I went right to a homebrew adventure, world, etc., for our campaign. I just can't imagine doing it any other way for myself. This video really highlights some of the reasons I chose to do this. Love it. Maybe one day I'll try a module, but as it stands, I just don't see the point if we're all having a blast.

This is the best video I have seen from yo. It is REALLY good. I skipped the skit, but the advice is sound.

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks dude!

@buttmunchmcnugget328

3 жыл бұрын

Skipped the skit! Blaspheme!

My group wants me to run Dungeon of the Mad Mage for them, so we start it in a few weeks. Thanks for the video!

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

That's a large dungeon for sure, but from what I've read from it it's really cool. You guys should enjoy it.

@user-dd9dh9kw5c

3 жыл бұрын

Haha I'm going all out on this one. Using a virtual tabletop the players have to actually draw the map no fog of war for them.

I don't know how well it will work, but on my first DM, to simplify the dungeon map and conceptualizations, I'm actually having it take place at a large hotel and convention center that exists in the real world. It's a large sprawling complex, but it maxes out at 6 floors, 5 of which are identical. Each floor progresses in difficulty and moves the story along, but the players will be able to go anywhere they want (plot permitting), so instead of attacking the hotel, they can single out the convention center, or the water park. It's a zombie themed urban fantasy. They are at the hotel and convention center where there is an anime/comic convention and the characters are motivated to "save con". There is quite a lot more to it than just killing zombies though, and the ground floor of everything is the most difficult area. So in order to get anywhere near the objectives, the players will have to reach higher levels (or the roof) from outside first, and work their way down. There are other puzzles and challenges they can single out on the ground floor and outside as CR1 though. But their risks and rewards will be proportional. I'm not sure how many sessions this will drag on though, it's my first time playing DnD at all, and I am DM, and it's a homebrew. Wish me luck!

Geat video and tip! Personally, I love running super crazy, complex, and over the top dungeons! Got to have some Diablo 1 inspiration in there!

When I played D&D on my Commodore 64 computer (late 80’s early 90’s) there were mazes and mines that were very easy to get lost in because graphics were poor and everything looked the same. Because the area was so big I resorted to drawing maps that only included intersections and rooms and stairs. Excluding length of passage and shape of room altogether. Every room was a box with a line coming out for each passage out. Very hard to explain but it made for compact map making where you could find your way back because each place where there was a choice on direction, you knew what choices you made.

I remember when we played Labyrinth of Madness and our DM made us draw the map and try to describe what we had to do in each room. So much fun...

As someone who very frequently runs large dungeons, my number one tip is take your modules and throw them in the garbage.

Great topic today

What I do is take a high resolution photo of any maps and then use photo editor to crop the maps into small sections for which I write brief descriptions and save the to use on my tablet. Once this is done, I can run the adventure and just pull up the map section and corresponding text no matter where the players go in the dungeon. It takes quite a bit of prep up front, but pays off when running the dungeon.

For large dungeons, there are some interesting options for cutting things down for easier use. One of them is to cut down from the full map into more of a chart with major areas and which ones are linked to each other and go from there along with distances. If the players veer off, if it's not a combat area, well, it's not normally run on a grid unless it's a puzzle that requires it or some traps. Having a basic marching order for the players works quite well for both dealing with metagaming issues in party formations, it also lets you set up ambushes as well. Having a few other areas that can be entered along the way marked out expands it. One of the adventures that inspired me to do that actually involved the idea of using the minotaur in a maze scenario for low level players and adding things to it. I ended up making about a dozen actual tiles (with a few of some). At first, I'd actually tried mapping the entire maze for my own use, which I decided was a bit to complex and harder to keep track of since I wanted to have the party stumbling around and have ways of getting the party disoriented (plus the maze could shift on them), though I'd, at first, tried to map the entire thing out and was tearing my hair out about it until I realized that I could easily simplify it. Basically, I had planned encounters in some areas along with some random minotaur skirmishes in a foggy maze where it would be using hit and run tactics to hit and fade back into the maze. Basically, each group of the players (after they split up) would essentially have two dice rolled (In this one, a D10 and a D4). On the 1 and 10 of the D10, it was a special room set where it was more interesting, specific locations such as the sealed entrance to the maze, the minotaurs lair, or a healing spring they might be able to recover a bit with, having 4 different locations for each of the D4 rolls. For a 2-9, it was more generic sections of the maze where I had 4 versions of the same "tile" such as a right turn, a T Intersection, a longer straight, or a four way intersection. Now, at first those were all identical, though that changed as the game continued and things happened such as the npcs that went in with them getting brutally slaughtered there, sometimes right in front of them, and signs being left of it that they might stumble onto again later on, and there were some crude traps both the players were setting along with a few more nerve wracking than actually dangerous ones the beast was setting for them after they started it. Which version of the tile was determined by the D4 and I'd left room in my notes to mark any differences that tile had as I continued. The minotaur didn't really need to have me roll for where it went, though I rolled anyway half the time just to keep up tension in the party... I probably should have printed more of the generic tiles I'd created because a few times, it had three or four versions of the same room type there but not the same one and I had to improvise it. I also had a chart of events that were largely random for things happening that the players might need to deal with such as hearing an npc run into the monster, that npc panicking, or even the beast roaring somewhere in the mists along with a few random things that might be there from previous people to find their way into it such as some trinkets and ruined clothes from a part of a skeleton, a potion dropped as someone scrambled away, something written in blood that's now dried on the stones they're walking on, or other things. The atmosphere let it be creepy and disorienting since there wasn't an easy way to retrace their steps... I loved the idea and continued breaking down a few dungeons into it that were on the larger size unless it's one where every room matters

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

Yes, I love the idea of breaking a large dungeon into areas and then just tracking which connect to which.

I'm running Wave Eco Cave tomorrow - I've got the map in roll20, shaded for DM and I'm gonna have a second monitor with the players view up so I can reveal piece by piece as they decide where to go. I've also got the monster tokens in place so when they enter the rooms they're ready to roll

I’ve actually ran into the problem that some maps on Roll20 are so large that it will fail to reload if I swap to another tab and back

The biggest issue I have with larger dungeons is if there is the possibility of people in 1 area being able to respond to noise/combat in another area. (IE You are in area 25, but there is a note in area 34 that states those people could be reinforcements to area 25 if sounds of combat are heard - THESE NOTES SHOULD POINT BOTH WAYS! There should be a note in 25 stating there is assistance in 34 if needed). Then there is an issue of having the party leave without finishing and returning after a period of time ... the area (most likely) would not remain stagnant and restock in some way and if there are intelligent beings in the area, they may "beef up" security now that they realize there was a weakness in the early areas near the entrance.

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

Yes totally agree. This is like whatever think of as a living dungeon that responds based on the player's actions. This is why when I'm preparing a module I write on the map all of the monsters that are in each room. That way I don't have to worry about notes in the module about monsters and one room hearing any commotion in a different room. I just look at my map and make those determinations myself whether monsters should hear a battle going on nearby or not. It's much easier to do that myself then try to read through the text and go based on what the module says.

I used to struggle with running Undermountain, until a friend of mine, who runs AD&D, asked me why I draw the dungeon map. I didn't understand him and he explained that in older editions players used to draw the maps for themselves and the DM would only draw a room on the battlemap in case of a fight or sometimes difficult puzzles. That made our game way better. Players feel like they are exploring a vast system, they make notes and sketches, sometimes during the short rests they declare that they make a map and I show them the parts they had explored

I use a an overhead projector transparency to trace the map so far and lay it on a blank graph paper sheet for scale.

If I run premade modules with big dungeons, I just simplify the dungeons to things that are relevant to the plot. Hitting dead ends or clearing rooms with no definite progression to the party's goals can be tiring. I tend to combine rooms too. For example, maybe there's a forge with an encounter, and there's a barracks with a magic weapon hidden under the bedsheets. I just put the magic item in the forge and scrap the barracks.

I make my own terrain. I have a lot of modular tiles and I place the tiles down as they enter the area. This has solved my problem. I am currently running The Forge of Fury in Yawning Portal and I recently finished Sunless Citadel. Love your videos and thank you because I have become a much better DM.

@deadpool-mp3gb

4 жыл бұрын

Also all my homebrew dungeons are smaller, usually 2 or 4 levels with no more than 5 rooms per level

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

Oh yeah if you have dungeon tiles that makes things nice. By the way I really like the forge of Fury. That's a great module. I will tell you though that against the Giants in yawning portal is crap. Now your group might have a different experience than mine but we all hated that module. We ran through the hill giant part and the frost giant part for the module. But now I'm actually writing the fire giant part myself. Just giving you a heads up your experience might be different than mine of course. And very happy to hear that you're enjoying the videos man! Happy to help :-)

@deadpool-mp3gb

4 жыл бұрын

Actually when we finish running Forge of Furyx I am going to run them through Storm Kings Thunder. I was planning on then running against the giants but I think I will be homebrew from there. My ultimate plan is the let each member request 1 great magical item, then I will write up quests for these items. Once all 8 members, yes I have a large group, get their items they should be around level 20 and they will finish their characters with a show down with the Terrasque.

Tips for mega dungeons: I am currently DMing Dubeon of the Mad Mage. I have tested different ways for the map and ended with using a screen. Either you may use an iPad or a PC. Use any free drawing software (FireAlpaca for me), having the map as the base layer. Then you add a grey layer as fog of war atop of it and just erase it as players go. Saving the file saves fog of war between sessions and makes everything super smooth to run. If you have any questions about how to easily run mega dungeons it is just to message me, through trial and error I have now become okay at it.

I've been running a campaign using nothing but the dungeons in Tales from the Yawning Portal and as you know they are all pretty much large dungeons. I've established with my players this aspect many times - that this campaign is about dungeon crawling with the story being loosely fitted around tying the dungeons together. The fact we have been using VTT's has helped massively - roll20 initially but have recently moved to Foundry. I can imagine doing it without a VTT could be very difficult. Currently preparing the map(s) for Dead in Thay and boy oh boy is that a LARGE dungeon. All in all my players seem to be enjoying things so far - currently nearing the end of Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan.

I am new dm started with Hoard of the Dragon Queen and also purchased Dungeon of the Mad Mage, level five in HOTDQ lands you in Waterdeep at the right level for DOTMM. I gave the players a choice to delve or continue. I may try my own adventures to break up 23 levels of dungeon. (Edit) They just got to Waterdeep tonight.Perfect timing on this video.

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah and for DOTMM, I'd consider creating some sort of plot or REASON to go into the dungeon. that's the biggest failing of that module, IMO. It gives the DM and the players no real reason to go into the dungeon.

@michiwonderoutdoors2282

4 жыл бұрын

@@theDMLair I set up a plot in HOTDQ where an npc/pc hires the characters to guard his wagon load of iron ore from Beregost to his estate near Greenest where, upon arrival, his evil step brother has sold out to the Dragon Cult and has given his (npc/pc) twin sister to Rezmir the Cult leader. I'm thinking she was taken to Skullport and then deeper into Undermountain in a plot to ambush and capture the brother. They are needed for some as yet undetermined ritual sacrifice pertaining to their mother's background. I only have two others playing so I play my npc/pc and don't have to adjust the encounters, I have him searching for info about the sister and let the players make all the decisions. It is what it is I guess.

I am first-time-dm'ing, and i usually draw out the dungeon theyre going to visit in it's entirety, and then cut out the different rooms/areas not visible, and then lay it out in front of them as they enter, it gives a real "You've unlocked a new area" feeling to the entire thing while keeping the flow going and not revealing too much of the possible dungeon size and layout from the start, takes about 1h prep time, but that's 1h saved that would be spread during a playsession.

Use index cards. Draw a small version of the room on one side with any needed info on the other. When the players enter that room you can place it down next to the other cards where the room would be located. At the end of the night take a picture of how the layout is.

I've been doing everything in Zoom so I've been putting the maps in Microsoft Publisher, creating tokens with pictures and sharing my screen with sections blacked out and zoomed in. Its been working well so far.

1. Convert them to smaller dungeons. lol Make a section of 12 rooms into 2-3 large rooms. 2. EVERY room must provide the players with access to information or a key to a lock. Good treasure is always hidden in an optional area. If it doesn't serve one of those purposes, remove it. You need 2-3 combats before the BBEG to drain them of some resources to make the fight memorable. Modern times has a room or space for everything. Olden times people slept in the same room as the sheep! A village lodge where the elders hung out on a daily basis and a bunch of one-room huts for families.

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

Now I want to have an encounter with the bad guys in a room full of sheep that get in the way. I wonder how fast they'll be to throw down at Fireball in that situation. LOL

@rogerfarley7823

4 жыл бұрын

@@theDMLair When I ran Tomb of Annihilation, they crawled the first two levels to get a feel for the gravity of the place, but for the remaining levels they had a choice to crawl for potential loot or find the key and move on. They surmised that Acererak would likely screw them out of the loot anyway, so chose to check out all of the trickster god tombs, then find the key and move on. I stuck the key in one of the hardest rooms on each level as a major encounter and that's all they did. I got rid of the extra 5 rooms to "uncover" the key holes and used them later in another add-on dungeon to their campaign. Epic fight and out. Each level took a session of 4-5 hours. If your players like crawls, give them crawls... otherwise, hit and get it... lol

If you have the digital versions on Dnd and beyond make a copy of the player versions of the map and put them into GIMP. Change the pixel per inch to a single tile this will resize the map for minis, then export as Jpeg or PNG onto a flash drive and take to staples or kinkos w/e and they can print it as well as laminate it for poster size. You can then cover the hallways with black construction for fog of war or cut out each room and puzzle piece it during a campain just mark the back for its room number.

Im running Tomb of Annihilation. And im still trying to figure out the best way to handle it once the players get to the giant multi level tomb itself. Im thinking of just getting large battle mats and drawing it out, one for each floor so we can swap them out if they go up and down floors. Or maybe using regular size mats and just drawing the whole thing in half scale and using smaller pieces to represent player placement then just draw a normal sized map for a room during battles. The main problem is that traps are everywhere in this tomb and player positioning is extremely important so I want them to be able to show where they are all standing at all times.

For running larger dungeons, it is probably best to make a smaller dungeon seem bigger due to its puzzle complexity rather than its combat or navigation complexity. I took a 6-8 room dungeon and had it last for about three sessions because of the puzzles I put in. The hub room gave them access to four doors, of which only two could be accessed. The others were blocked with locks using the same key. (Party didn't know that.) They needed to find the key to unlock the rest of the dungeon, but still went into the rooms to solve puzzles and collect McGuffins. After they collected a couple McGuffins, they went into a corridor that wrapped around the dungeon ala Resident Evil where they found the key and got access to remaining rooms and McGuffins. The question of "Do the players have to do the backtracking themselves?" came up and the answer was "no." Each of the rooms were solitary rooms, with the exception of the winding corridor. What I'm saying here is that you could think of a large dungeon as a Resident Evil mansion or the RPD Station where the game takes place solely in a singular location that has many locks and keys, but there are only certain sections you can visit in any given time. In the RE2 remake for example: You move mainly through the west wing until you solve a number of puzzles that gain you access to the secret passage to a boss, then you need to mainly move through a combination of the basement and east wings to gain access to the sewers. After that, the sewers is its own section, but still has a number of connections to the previous areas via elevators. (Similar to a Metroid game.) Having a rather large dungeon, but unlocking it slowly and forcing the players to focus in on one section of the dungeon rather than giving them complete access to the entire thing is a helpful way to keep the work on the DM low, keep the game moving, and keep the party contained in a singular area. This probably would work for strongholds, temples, mansions, and castles. Caves and ruins may be a little more difficult, unless you put up barriers like ironwood walls that need rust powder in order to weaken enough to break through, or magical gates that remained sealed despite the rest of a ruin decaying around it. However, the good news is, is that it works for most dungeons.

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

That works assuming your players all love puzzles. and if they do that's cool. I know I personally when I'm a player I dislike puzzles. But that's just me.

I'm preperaing Castle Ravenloft from Curse of Strahd. 85 rooms, 10 maps for diffirent layers. As it's an actual castle, not a dungeon with 1-2 stairs to a next floor, players can visit any rooms in quite any order. At least we are playing in roll20, so it's manageable. But it will be real challenge. It will probably be the only time, when I make a such mega-dungeon, but Castle Ravenloft is too iconic to be skipped.

Keys. Not just standard locks but magical items that can unlock the next area. Or switches, leavers.. etc. This way you can segment the larger dungeons.

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

Yes, that's good. Especially for something like DotMM.

I had this idea while watching your video is maybe try to separate out dungeon into somewhat more distinguishable areas. Maybe this will be more easy for outside areas like making buildings with multiple rooms and when the players are done with one building they can go to the next. In a dungeon maybe there could be one or two easily distinguishable entry ways into another part of the dungeon that has multiple rooms and so on. I also have difficulty with this and plan on maybe trying to make a way to use roll20 map at the table.

Waterdeep is in Forgotten Realms, G1, G2, G3 etc. were in Greyhawk. Different decades.

Honestly, I think part of the fun is having the player's map not be 100% accurate as without tools and time anything they drew would never be precise. It is simply a way for them to try and remember where they've been, so it works as long as they aren't missing whole doors and passages.

One benefit of describing the dungeon and letting the players map it out is that you can make sure that the halls and rooms are not at perfect 90 degree angles and eventually the players, even with a map can get lost and this can really build the tension of the dungeon, especially if the party is forced to split up or run in a direction that is not yet mapped.

As a dm of a few years now, one of my biggest issues I still have is that I forget that dnd is always going to be slower paced than a video game. I designed a dungeon that I thought would be pretty short, but in a 4 hour session they're not even halfway through.

Honestly, I feel that having a good theme of monsters is far better than random mishmash for the sake of variety. Yes repetition sucks if you do it the wrong way, but it's amazing when done in such a way that the players get to learn the tactics and become good at fighting a certain type of enemy. But yes, huge dungeons is a chore, the idea of having to prep Castle Ravenloft is kinda putting me off from running CoS at the moment. Over 80 areas x_x

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

Having a theme is one thing. Having 50 hill giants to kill is something else entirely. Lol

I use my Desktop CPU and many many folders to run large dungeons. Currently runnign Dungeon of the Mad Mage. I make one little folder for each noteworthy room. and fill that folder full of monster pics and location art I pull off Pintrest. I narrate the groups exploration of the dungeon skimming over unimportant drudging to get to the more interesting room or encounter the group heads towards then I pull up monster pics for the group to look at and engage with, without explanation. It was hilarious seeing my group find a Mezoloth (fiendish bug monster) and think It was a thri-kreen this completely changed there approach to dealing with that creature. Also Dungeon of the Mad mage is full or portals I count around 30 unique magic portals. So Now I have 30 pics of magic gates I have for the players to look at. and now with a visual que each time then stumble upon a gate the players tend to remember how to activate each individual gate. and then they can remember to ask for these gates when they return to a floor of the dungeon they have already explored. It makes for getting around this massive maze much easier. when I can skim over pointless travel.

Have you tried splitting up the "Large" dungeon into sections (1/4 or 1/5 sized) and using a "door" or "archway" that is labled that tells what that section is ("Kitchen-Dinning area", "Sleeping Quarters", "Throne room and Courtyards"). This can cover not only the smaller rooms of that type but also many of the other rooms nearby and the connecting corridors. This might give your players a chance to "skip" the area if they feel it is not worth exploring. Alternatively, just "rewrite" the Map. Identify which rooms and interesting places you want or are needed, and just redraw a map that connects these spots to simplify (this can let you cut out a lot of "repetition, and large sections of endless hallways or extraneous rooms. Also you can combine rooms to get the loot/items into a smaller space rather than spread all over) Just some thoughts.

I like taking inspiration from larger dungeons to make my own, smaller ones.

I actually started creating more variety in kind of medium sized dungeons. One dungeon I have coming up has only two enemies until the final boss, and both can be defeated or passed up by creative means. The rest of the dungeon is puzzles and traps intended to get players thinking. One room is a cursed treasure room where touching the treasure starts turning you to gold while touching it, and a dragon guarding it that mainly throws piles of coins to eventually add them to it’s collection (the condition can be cured, but that means using up valuable spell slots). The dragon can be avoided by not touching the treasure, but if it is woken up the players can try running out of the room. The only other time enemies could show up is if they try to rest.

Although it does not have complex maps, I10 House on Gryphon Hill is a complex Module. What makes it complicated is that it has too many things to keep track of, including the weather! Right now working on a video to review it, but I wish I picked an easier module to review.

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

You know the ironic thing about modules that make things that complex for the game master to take care of or to run the game is that a lot of that stuff doesn't even end up getting used. The Gamemaster just has so much going on they can't use all of that material. It'll be better to have like a third of that stuff that you actually get used. Let's pretend we pick a third of the material the most impactful third of the material for the game master. I feel like that would be much more beneficial and then allow the Gamemaster to improvise on the fly if he wants to build things out further. Complex modules just don't do it for me.

This video gives me flashbacks to Strahds castle.

My groups and myself have been drawing our player maps as we go off of the room by room battlemap for, well decades. In fact, the group I just joined the DM was describing the mines with left-right rather than east-west type descriptives and I still made a small map to track where we were on a blank piece of paper. In a group of 5 or so people surely someone has the ability of special recognition to make a non scaled map. (Then again, maybe players that grew up after 1990 or so don't know how to deal with paper maps).

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

it's not that players can't do it. It's just that it takes longer usually. And if the group doesn't find it to be a fun part of the game, why do it? For groups that enjoy mapping, more power to them, of course.

Honestly one of the things I dislike is how small most of the dungeon maps have been in 5e. It really annoys me. I dont need them to be the size of Undermountain, but I would at least like ones that pretty big.

Throwing another method here for others to consider. 1. Get an unlabelled map for players 2. Make a copy of it with numbers for DM 3. Have your players explore by rolling dice and the DM referencing their table of where the players get to 4. (Optional) unveil parts of the map as they roll and discover them It’s a quick way to dungeon crawlers and gives players more chances to roll dice/feel a part of the crawl instead of waiting for the DM to sort themselves out and lay everything out for them. Example: a mine leads down into a set of caverns in the Underdark. Roll a d4 to determine where you wander to (a svirfneblin settlement, the lair of a shadow dragon, the entrance of a duergar kingdom, a massive cavern glittering to your torch light with shining ores above a still spooky lake) Lastly: this method allows for fudging that their “roll” leads where they need to get to within the reasonable amount of time you have left in your session or campaign timeline

weeelll, if your party is getting bored, you might want to give em some npcs to talk to, maybe a giant that is not so angry and preffered to talk, a forging room where sound is so loud they gain advantage on stealth roll while at x feet of a giant, maybe a fellow adventurer that sneaked in, there are many options.

I love my warlock tiles, no drawing, everyone knows where everything is...I build rooms and hallways and set them down as they explore the dungeon.... next I'm going to try to set them up so they can connect in different ways so I don't have to keep rebuilding them...takes more than one set to make a decent size dungeon though. I probably don't have enough tiles to do dungeon of the mad mage or anything, but I tend toward homebrew and the dungeon size is limited to how many tiles I have and I have enough to fill the table so that's enough

The fundamental problem with the mini-map or montage approach is that it removes one of the possible sources of tension. If you're not interested in the risk of your characters getting lost, then it's fine, but if part of the point is the labyrinthine nature of the dungeon, then giving the players a map removes that.

Hi Luke, couldn’t agree more with your points in this video. Got a question for ya though: have you ever tinkered with editing large published dungeons? Like simply deleting whole sections, moving things around, etc? If so, what are your thoughts on that?

@theDMLair

4 жыл бұрын

Yes, I've done a little tinkering with published dungeons. Mostly just stealing parts of them or using them for inspiration.

My dungeon levels only have three rooms per level so I can add a lot more detail as well as add some traps between them

I like to structure bigger dungeons in a floor system. I create smaller dungeons to make a larger one, it works!

I may be an oddball, but I actually LIKE long dungeons. I like how they force characters to spend resources carefully and can have serious consequences. As a compromise with my players, my world's equivalent of Undermountain works like the Tower from Danmachi - a place people can choose to go to get stronger and maybe treasure. It's stated up front that it's much larger than normal dungeons and the role of "mapper" is important. Being on a VTT I disable FOW so the players will have to rely on their notes to find their way back. Or a few escape spells, which don't work in all areas.