I hesitate to name any composers I could live without, because in the past I would have written off several composers I later came to appreciate (C.P.E. Bach, for example). An interesting follow-up theme would be "Three Composers I USED to Think We Could Live Without".

@cimbalok2972

2 ай бұрын

Thank you for mentioning C.P.E. I am still at the stage where I do not appreciate him (I keep imagining an awkward scene in which he disparages "the Old Man" for being "old fashioned" and thinking he could do better) but I hope to eventually give him more credit. After all, he had very big shoes to fill. I like your idea about "3 Composers I USED to..."Georg Philipp Telemann, I used to roll my eyes, I'm now a huge fan. Another is Henry Purcell. All they used to play was "When I am Laid..." - and I am not a fan of lugubrious arias. But having heard more of his theater music: King Arthur, The Fairie Queen, The Married Beau, Abdelazar, etc. he's now one of my absolute favorites. Finally C.M. von Weber, who could rock a Silesian rhythm in such arias as in Kommt ein schlanker Bursch gegangen from "Der Freischütz". More to him than meets the ear.

@gnanathasanebenezer2915

Ай бұрын

Simply love CPE! A great, great composer!🎉

@williamdevlin5233

28 күн бұрын

@@cimbalok2972 Wow. Off the top of my head, two out of my three would have been Telemann and CPE Bach (mainly because I was trying to play one of his compositions this afternoon and trying to find a coherent melody). But there is some good stuff by both of them. I heard a piece a week or so ago on the radio that I liked, then discovered to my chagrin that it was Telemann. Guess there's a first time for everything.

@cimbalok2972

28 күн бұрын

@@williamdevlin5233 Our classical music station used to overplay Telemann. In fact, I would sneer that the "T" in WFMT stood for Telemann. But the more I heard, the more I liked. What was the work that did it? Tafelmusik. I had to buy a recording. I've been a Telemann fan ever since.

I should also mention I have a Boulez CD. I only play it when guests have stayed over too long and need to go home.

@georgenorris2657

Ай бұрын

I think Boulez would have understood what you were doing. He said of his own music that he usually needed aspirin afterwards.

@franksmith541

Ай бұрын

Lol that had me falling off my chair! But seriously, the 2nd Piano Sonata is a great work, and a pianist like Pollini does it true justice. The other two piano sonatas are also among the greats in the repertoire.

@YX4zf3

13 күн бұрын

But his Repons is quite nice.

@MichaelFineMusic

12 күн бұрын

I never considered Boulez a musician ...

I totally agree about Wuorinen. I’ll never forget being at a rehearsal at Texas Tech University many years ago when he was preparing the orchestra to perform a work he would guest conduct that evening. In the middle of total cacophony and chaos, he suddenly stopped the group and let loose a sneering scream at a trombone player, “E natural, not E flat!!” You could feel it across the room-the unspoken response, “Like it . . . matters?” Before or since, I've never encountered such vicious negation of both people and beauty. Ugly, Stupid, Contemptuous. An arrogant impostor. A fool who dressed himself in a polyester king's costume in order to get away with berating dukes and knights. Train wreck of a composer. Train wreck of a person.

@MichaelFineMusic

Ай бұрын

I was producing a recording with Wuorinan conducting good own Bass Trombone Concerto. At one point, he stopped the ensemble and sais 'No expression, please.' That rather says it all!

@YX4zf3

13 күн бұрын

I really like some of Wuorinen's music. Third Piano Concerto is very good, as are his two piano quintets. No need to scream at a trombone player, though. That's a black mark.

@alans98989

9 күн бұрын

At least he had a good ear. I actually heard the complete opposite story about Ferneyhough. Another composer I know described being at a rehearsal of one of Ferneyhough's works where it was obvious that what the musicians were playing only vaguely resembled what's written in the score. Despite this, Ferneyhough himself never said a single word. So, either New Complexity means "just try your best", or Ferneyhough doesn't actually know what his music is supposed to sound like.

@klop4228

5 күн бұрын

@@alans98989 Ferneyhough's thing was overnotating so that the performer decides which things are actually important on the page. Like, obviously play it all, but the space for "interpretation" is left to "what things do I make prioritise while learning this?"

@MichaelFineMusic

4 күн бұрын

@@alans98989 I produced several recordings with Charles - I'm not sure I agree about his ear (and I would say the same about Boulez.) I recall Charles - politely - asking a musician: 'Please, no expression.'

Sometimes what you dislike can tell a lot more about you than what you like. Liking everything is akin to not liking anything. Criticizing other works often demands more objective explanation compared to blind praising which often lacks this objectivity. It takes a lot of guts to do this I'm assuming so hats off to you.

Thanks to your video I discovered Wuorinen’s music, fantastic composer!

@DavesClassicalGuide

20 күн бұрын

Have fun!

@spikespa5208

20 күн бұрын

@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you for informing me about Wuorinen's efforts. Listen to some and ......where's that "not interested" button?

When Boulez died, all I could think of was the fact that when Schoenberg died, Boulez (aged 26) wrote a blistering essay entitled "Schoenberg is dead" writing off all of his music, in a thinly veiled attempt to promote himself, which evidently worked quite well. I think Schoenberg has stood the test of time better than Boulez.

@franciscocanas5686

Жыл бұрын

Schoenberg is eternal. 😀

@barrymoore4470

Жыл бұрын

Certainly. Schoenberg's work will never be mainstream fare, but it definitely has secure canonical status by now. I don't think Boulez is really listened to or studied today apart from specialists.

@roberthamilton542

Жыл бұрын

@@barrymoore4470 I just blasted Répons in my truck while I drove to work (not in music at all) in central Texas, lol ... we exist!

@christopherlandor6056

Жыл бұрын

@@roberthamilton542 I was at the world premiere of Repons as it happens, and I remember it quite vividly, and indeed enjoyed it at the time. I'm curious to know now how many times it's been performed

@steveschwartz8944

Жыл бұрын

@barrymoore4470 That's exactly what they said about Schoenberg. Of course, "they" could be right in Boulez's case. But I don't listen for the judgment of posterity. I listen because I like it and in the long run we're all dead so why waste time waiting?

I find it quite difficult to dismiss a composer. First, because I have not heard everything by that individual. Second, and more important, my taste has changed over time, and so I do not want to give up on anyone. As the years have passed, I have liked some composers more and more and others less and less.

@KenBreadbox

Жыл бұрын

Right? This thread is INCREDIBLY condescending.

@1906Farnsworth

8 ай бұрын

AGREED... many times a work "grew" on me over time. I was even indifferent to the Tchaikovsky 5th Symphony at first, a fact that still amazes me. Ya gotta keep looking.

@ubermo1182

2 ай бұрын

@bachback Don't be so hard on yourself! You sure don't need to listen to some toiler's entire musical oeuvre just to confirm they're only of interest to pedants and

@bplonutube

2 ай бұрын

I think you need to develop your sense of humor. That’s one of the greatest things about Dave Hurwitz. He has a sense of humor.

Anyone remember Richard Nanes? Amateur pianist and composer who issued oodles of CDs on his own label and then sent them to all the radio stations he could. Output is divided between tonal wallpaper and chromatic sludge.

@HassoBenSoba

Жыл бұрын

Now THERE'S a good candidate for obscurity!

@annakimborahpa

Жыл бұрын

I don't consider the music of Nanes to be inane.

@MarshallArtz007

11 ай бұрын

@@HassoBenSoba: I think your wish has already been granted. 😎🎹

@commontater8630

4 ай бұрын

Yes. Nanes managed to push a surprising number of his CDs into the collection of my local public radio station. As much as I loved to explore new composers, I found everything of his utterly unlikeable.

@pmarq32

13 күн бұрын

OMG -- I almost forgot about him until this comment 🤣🤣. I have a friend who's a fabulous flute player, and quite beautiful to boot. Apparently he was independently wealthy and used his considerable resources to try to woo her, without success I would add. He's completely self-funded in his recording operation and never had to worry about actual talent. Some of us gotta work for a living, and love for that matter.

I love your take-no-prisoners approach to thinning the herd, Dave! 🎶 Over the centuries, the great god of HYPE has championed "miserable" and "wretched" music of many stripes, indeed! 😁

I was dubious, but from the moment you mentioned Wuorinen I was eating out of your hand.

Thank you. You know Desert Island Disks. Perhaps this episode could be rebranded as "Music you would take to hell with you."

@7:14...Yes, I really needed to have my morning tea come out of the nostrils. Thanks Dave! X-D

It was until yesterday that I lived peacfully, depraved of Telemann's 3000 compositions. Should I embark now on a Telemann Crusade?

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

Only if you no longer want to be depraved.

@valerietaylor9615

8 ай бұрын

I like Telemann. In fact, I think his Water Music (aka “Hamburger Ebb Und Fluss”) is better than Handel’s. At any rate, it’s less overplayed. I admit, his music can sound formulaic, but that’s partly because he wrote so much. In addition to his Water Music, his “Don Quichotte” Suite is excellent.

@Lucky_AL

5 ай бұрын

Telemann wrote some of the most exquisite Ouverture Suites. With all he wrote, judge him by his best work, not his most mediocre. His concerto for Gamba and Recorder is as close to baroque heavy metal as it gets.

@MrDjango1953

2 ай бұрын

No Telemann is great and in fact very underrated imho.JS Bach thought very highly of him which has to count for something.

I could live without Riccardo Broschi, Carl Czerny and Philip Glass. I couldn't live without Bach, Beethoven and Messiaen.

@sevenlayer8780

Жыл бұрын

@antero Avila: by the transitive property, living without Czerny pretty much means living without Beethoven. And Liszt. And Schumann. And Chopin. And…

@thekeyoflifepiano

Жыл бұрын

@@sevenlayer8780 1. Beethoven came before Czerny 2. Liszt and Chopin were prodigies before they met Czerny.

@angryjalapeno

Жыл бұрын

@@thekeyoflifepiano Great artists weren't grown in a vacuum. There are numerous prodigies in every generation so much so that Beethoven tired of being introduced to them. Prodigies have to be nurtured and Czerny nurtured Liszt.

@anterix1999

Жыл бұрын

I agree that putting Czerny in the same sentence as the others is a bit of a stretch. But I don't dig his compositions.

@forresth.6690

Жыл бұрын

Lose Glass and you might lose Nyman, and anyone who costs me MGV is getting the collected works of Ingmar Carlsson in quad.

Dear Dave, what is your opinion about the Concerto for guitar and orchestra op 72 by Bacarisse? I think it is a splendid party record.

I'm curious about which classical Era composers you could do without? I just enjoy the variety of not hearing only the top tier but also the emulators who often have original things to say.

At first this topic sounded like fun, but after reading the comments it is more frightening. And wasn't the game actually to give the reason, why you could live without a given composer and not just dropping names?

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

Yep. But as I said, the general response is interesting, even after I delete a good chuck of it.

I have heard a couple of Wuorinen pieces that were downright likable (which always comes as a shock). And I basically agree that at its best Boulez is just shimmery atonal Debussy, but that’s kind of nice. The intellectual posturing and bullying that went along with it is more problematic than the music itself. But I wouldn’t be heartbroken to lose either. There’s no shortage of second tier baroque composers to delete. I particularly dislike the ones that are structurally flabby, and would probably get rid of Froberger or something, Or moving into the classical period, I can do without Dittersdorff even though he’s perfectly competent. If Cancrizans has a hunger for sheer volume of music deleted, it’s tempting to offer up Leif Segerstam, as the evil god gets to eliminate over 300 symphonies in one go.

@koalabandit9166

6 ай бұрын

I don't really know his music (nor am I qualified to judge it), but my impression of Boulez is that the problem is not so much his posturing (that's very common), but his sincerity. He was, in the opinion of many musicians, a man of great talent, but he seems to me to have been more interested in his perplexing (but sincere, as far as I can tell) intellectual philosophies than in music. I remember that he disliked Poulenc because it was "not progress". What a strange concept, to dislike music based on its date. I'd like to know progress towards what and how do we know when we arrive. I get the feeling that he didn't know either.

@playandteach

5 ай бұрын

As someone who really likes Poulenc, either the piano works or the Gloria, or - having LOVED playing the piano for my flute playing daughter, the wind sonatas - that's a good reason to shelve Boulez.@@koalabandit9166

You have a very mischievous streak...to say the least! 😀

I periodically go back to Boulez's music thinking that the problem must be all mine for not trying hard enough with it. Initially I always find myself thinking, 'This is such interesting stuff, I really ought to make more effort'. And then by around 10 minutes in, my attention is starting to wander in a big way... Much though I love Walton, I could do without the official bombast like Crown Imperial. The absolute pits has to be Karl Jenkins, though. I once sang in a choir that was going to do a cantata by him. I lasted half way through a rehearsal before deciding that it was unspeakable crap and walking out.

@lautarovazquez7205

Жыл бұрын

I agree. And I add a reflection. It's a fact that Karl Jenkins has almost symbolically destroyed the great, noble figure of "British conservative composer". I doubt in calling him "composer", but we can try... His music, of course, is incredibly awful, that's obvious, a continuum of 90sclassical-pop cliches or something like that. Well, despite these thing, we can try and call him "composer", and there're lots like him, so... OK: "composers". But the commercial "success" of this music is even more incomprehensible than the music itself (in fact, EMI recorded and diffunded a lot of this stuff before his dissolution). By the way (reflection two), the general (musical) aesthetic of His Majesty King Charles III (awful) Coronation Ceremonies and Shows showed some subliminal influence of the type of "aesthetic ideal" (laughs, too solemn) that Jenkins music exemplarices: homogenous bad taste, sentimentality at his worst, technical disasters almsot everywere, and so on. Sad for England. Anyway, Jenkins will be rapiddly forgotten, thankfully. And the noble title of "British conservative composer" will survive.

@annakimborahpa

Жыл бұрын

So you decided to junk Jenkins, eh?

@iankemp1131

Жыл бұрын

@@lautarovazquez7205 You sound like a pillar of the musical establishment that likes to deride Jenkins or a lot of other music that many people actually like and enjoy. So what would you have put in the Coronation celebrations then? Boulez? Tippett? Maxwell Davies? All merrily on their way to oblivion apart from a tiny group of aficionados, along with many other "classical" composers of the last 100 years. Someone summed it up beautifully as "squeaks and farts" music.

@ColinWrubleski-eq5sh

10 ай бұрын

Heard the Karl Jenkins "L'Homme Armee" Mass live in late April, and, prepared to dislike it (having previously played Jenkins' dubious "Palladio", aka the bad diamond commercial background soundtrack) was instead well and truly impressed. The end of the Sanctus was particularly epic. So even composers of dreck can generate the occasional diamond...

@daviddavenport9350

5 ай бұрын

I like Crown Imperial...it is sort of a 6th or 7th Pomp and Circumstance March (all of which I truly love!)

You’re hilarious Dave! Thank you so much for your reviews

I like how Dave is playing the long game with Cancrizans, identifying his capricious and mutable nature and getting him to see reason. Keep on Him. That said, we all love and worship you, Cancrizans, and know you will do the right thing in the end. (I can butter him up, too.)

@ColinWrubleski-eq5sh

10 ай бұрын

Sounds like a technique first adopted by Scheherezade...^^

This is a very funny video. I have a list of composers we could do without, but it keeps changing, so I'll restrain myself. But it's an interesting exercise just to think about it. Thanks.

What have you done David? Even Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms, Mahler, Schubert and Bruckner have been proposed by some participants here. This is literally apocalyptic. I suppose by tomorrow Chopin, Debussy and Ravel will also pop up. By the end of the week only Froberger and Solage will have survived.

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

Well, it's an interesting sociological study, isn't it? I outlined very clear criteria for what I wanted to do, and what I got was a pretty much inane and thoughtless hate-fest. Why am I not surprised?

@davidbo8400

Жыл бұрын

@@DavesClassicalGuide Well put.

@wenedsday

Жыл бұрын

@@kingconcerto5860 LOL

@656520

Жыл бұрын

It's a great exersise !

@henryfitzgerald5857

Жыл бұрын

Of the big names-I mean, the really BIG names-Chopin and Debussy are the first two I would suggest. (However, I will admitted that this isn't reasonable. To abide more seriously by the rules of the game, I'll suggest two tedious moderns, John Tavener and Arvo Pärt; and for the obligatory old-timer, one of the relative-no-one-cares-about composers: either Louis Couperin or Alessandro Scarlatti. Probably Couperin to be honest.)

RE your comment at 7:55 about who would be upset if Boulez's music disappeared, I think many music theory professors, authors and publishers of post-tonal music theory textbooks, and maybe some old-school musicologists (as opposed to practitioners of "new musicology") would be since Structures I and II for Two Pianos are often cited as exemplars of "integral serial" compositional technique.

Wow this topic really opened up the floodgates. I wonder if any other comments section has filled up so quickly! In a way, I have sympathy with the commenters who wish to be civil, perspicacious, and discreet. In another, much more visceral way, I couldn't have been happier for this list to start with Charles Wuorinen. I'll add John Eaton and Bernard Rands.

@reamartin6458

Жыл бұрын

Yeah Rands sucks

I come across both known and obscure composers from all periods with whose works I am unfamiliar. I do them the courtesy of listening to a representative sampling and deciding if I want to hear more. There are a great many I find of no consequence, but I still wouldn't wish them to be expunged. After all, someone else might enjoy them. But, in the spirit of fun, I have listened to all 3 of these, and can't fault your selections.

@HassoBenSoba

Жыл бұрын

Listen to the magnificent Overture/Suite in BFlat for double orchestra by Fasch (try the recording by the Virtuosi Saxoniae) and see if you might reconsider your conclusion. LR

@annakimborahpa

Жыл бұрын

I join the Stammpede.

@leestamm3187

Жыл бұрын

@@HassoBenSoba I've heard it, and a few others. Pleasant listening, very much of its era, but nothing that makes me want to hear more.

@ThreadBomb

Жыл бұрын

@@leestamm3187 Listen to Fasch's lute concerto (more often recorded with guitar).

Happy to read "Cancrizans" and understand what Dave was referring to. Greetings from Argentina!

OMG, I have several discs of Fasch and enjoy his music. I most certainly agree with the other two you picked.

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

Whether you like it or not isn't the point!

Rather than banishing this composer or that, for the sake of efficiency, I wonder if we might select a note, say Ab, and ban its further use?

@bbailey7818

Жыл бұрын

You can have Ab as long as I can keep G#. 😊

@jg2977

Жыл бұрын

As a trombonist I really hate F#/Gb. In the lower registers it’s in 5th position which is in the middle of nowhere, and the high F# is in sharp 3rd which isn’t even a real position. What is that? Just get rid of it.

@willsingourd2523

11 ай бұрын

Droll, very droll...

@curtisunit

4 ай бұрын

C is the ketchup of the music world. Once the glorious foundation of Brahms’ 1st and Glen Campbell’s Rhinestone Cowboy now a ubiquitous and decadent old key overused for the sake of a quick emotional fix.

@curtisunit

4 ай бұрын

I blame Bach. He couldn’t leave well enough alone.

If you ever plan on going back to the old format and can only choose one work by Ligeti, I think it should be either Atmospheres or the Chamber Concerto. Atmospheres really is his breakout work and where he took the leap away from the serialized direction of music and decided to work with sounds directly. His micropolyphonic textures aren’t quite as refined at this stage, but the core essence is there. It reflects almost every criticism he has of serialism; that it’s a roundabout way to deal with working with sound, especially when the compositional goal does not match the intent of the serialist process. Atmospheres also brought in other facets of composition at the time such as taking a massive amount of inspiration from compositional techniques in electronic music. The chamber concerto is another potential good one because it really is a culmination of all of his work up to that point. He uses Net structures and maximally smooth harmonic and rhythmic additive processes from Ramifications. His micropolyphonic textures are slowed down and refined to be more melodic, but still retain that core element of goal orientation and gradual, almost imperceptible evolution of the soundscape. He uses quasi canonic structures such as in Lux Aeterna or Lontano to organize and regulate his micropolyphonic textures. Even that Pattern-Meccanico of the third movement can be seen as an outgrowth of his experiments in Poeme Symphonique, which is also seen in his second string quartet. This piece is part of his continuous explorations of how to create a new sense of musical syntax all over again for his musical age. There are so many things in here that make it a culmination of his work and make it worthy to be the one spared by the great god of classical music

About 1979, with the Two Part Symphony, Wuorinen turned some sort of intangible corner and his music became very interesting to me. I don't care for his operas, but there are many pieces of his that I often return to and would not like to lose: Five, New York Notes, The Golden Dance, Trio for Bass Instruments, Genesis, Mass, Trombone Trio, Microsymphony, etc. So I can't write him off as you can. The guy I CAN write off is Elliott Carter -- I've never been able to get anything out of his music, with the exception of the very early tonal ballets. And I've tried countless times.

@jppitman1

Жыл бұрын

Like you I`ve tried time and time again with no success. I admire him such that he lived a very long time and still had works in the pipeline, but it sure was not MY pipeline.

@sprachnroll

Жыл бұрын

I really like his first string quartet and absolutely nothing else I’ve heard of his.

@porcinet1968

7 ай бұрын

I adore Carter, own nearly all of his works (I love the Concerto for Orchestra, the Symphonia and the Double Concerto in particular) and dislike most American serialists (Babbitt and Wourinen) intensely - one thing one learns very deeply when you work in music for decades is that musical taste is as diverse, weird and variable as music itself is. There are listeners and fans of just about every tiny erudite corner of the musical world. I rate the 14th century composer Solage incredibly highly and there are perhaps a handful of us in the world. The numbers don't matter - they don't affect my love of the work at all. I would like it the same if 10 million people loved it or if only 10 did. The good thing about the popularity of popular music is that it means I don't have to care whether or not anyone likes Puccini or Tchaikovsky (I don't at all - the music sounds to me like Carter probably does to you, "senseless screeching" is what goes through my head when I hear their work).

@daviddavenport9350

5 ай бұрын

Carter wrote a rather nice early Symphony that I heard Orpheus play live....sounded as good as Copland of the time.

@gomro

5 ай бұрын

@@daviddavenport9350 I have the two early ballets, POCAHONTAS and THE MINOTAUR, and they have much the same sound as you describe. He didn't have the melodic gift Copland did, though.

When you said "Boulez", I actually physically *shuddered*. He's a marvelous conductor, especially of Debussy and Messiaen. His music is dry as sawdust. I had a composition teacher who thought Charles Wuorinen hung the Moon. My upper limit of a Wuorinen piece is about three minutes.

Wuorinen and Boulez sure, I will go with that. Fasch however has written two works that I come back to from time to time, namely the lute concerto in d minor (FWV L:d1) and a sonata for four strings (FWV N:d3), also in d minor. The lute concerto is fun to listen to and even more fun to play. It has a W. F. Bach vibe to it with some italian influences. Give those a listen too, before giving them the final axe…

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

Again, what you like isn't the point at all.

@valerietaylor9615

8 ай бұрын

I rather like Fasch, myself. He wasn’t on a par with Bach and Handel, or even Telemann, but his music is pleasant enough that I wouldn’t want to delete him. Actually, I can’t think of a single Baroque composer I’d be willing to delete. The earliest composer I’d want to delete is Clementi. His music was very popular in its time, but is really quite dull. I know he isn’t Baroque; he’s Classical. But couldn’t we let it slide?

@annabelwaterfield6108

Ай бұрын

He also wrote a very fine virtuoso concerto for alto recorder. It's not heard as often as it should be, because it's so difficult.

@tommccanna7036

Күн бұрын

@@annabelwaterfield6108 He also wrote a concerto for chalumeau, which is a substantial part of the repertory for that instrument

considering multitudes of composers who couldn't even get a moment of attention, it looks like an honor to be included in this list 😂

@DavesClassicalGuide

3 ай бұрын

There's no such thing as bad publicity.

I'm a complete Boulezbian. He would not be on my list. His music is lush, fruity, and visceral. But this is a fun exercise. My randomish three: Bruckner, Scarlatti, Gorecki

I was very fond of Wuorinen's "Time's Enconium" when I was a teenager. Haven't listened to it in many years, but I suspect it isn't without merit.

@danielfaben5838

Жыл бұрын

Yes. This was a piece of the moment. The synthesized simplicity was mesmerizing. I may be wrong.

@Ingrampix

Жыл бұрын

Eventually, I put my lp of Time's Encomium in boiling water and moulded it into a usable flower pot (already a hole for drainage). True story - I'd bought it aged 14 on the back of a Gramophone recommendation.

@mikereiss4216

Жыл бұрын

It won the Pulitzer prize so it's hard to dismiss him for that alone.

@Ingrampix

Жыл бұрын

And Donald Martino won a few years later. Funny in retrospect though not at the time. I expect Cancrizans would smile, and then banish the entire school of American career academic serialists to their own private planet.

@terrencebucker

7 ай бұрын

@@mikereiss4216 Respectfully disagree-Pulitzer committee can certainly get things wrong, any such collective body can.

I expected to see Wuorinen on your list. But not all his work should be so easily dismissed. He was a hit-or-miss composer, but I recommend in particular the 3rd string quartet, the horn trio, the first piano quintet, and Time's Encomium.

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

I wouldn't miss those either, and neither would (almost) anyone else.

@gomro

10 ай бұрын

The judges who gave TIME's ENCOMIUM the 1970 Pulitzer said they did so because it was the only piece among the entries that they could hear something approaching melody in. I like that work pretty well, but I sure wish it had been realized on Moog synths instead of the RCA synth, which never sounded very good and hasn't ripened with age.

When Boulez heard Zappa he realized he was hearing music he wished he had composed and became an avocate of Frank’s and settled into conducting his work. Say what you might, Boulez had the humility to recognize genius.

Dave, how could you have missed off Michael 'Important' Nyman? - Yeuk

There’s really nobody I would name. First, your choices were all obscure to me - I have no idea if I’d miss their music since I don’t know it but might in the future. Second, I can already see most people are naming composers they just don’t like, and sometimes coming up with absurd reasons in an attempt to make it seem like a learned and analytical opinion rather than an instinctive one. I know of composers I can do without but I wouldn’t want to impact someone else who likes them by saying “go ahead, take it all away, who cares?” Just my 2¢.

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

You are taking this much too seriously. Have a little fun!

@MDK2_Radio

Жыл бұрын

@@DavesClassicalGuide I don’t know Dave, I feel like I went through this phase as an adolescent, though it was hating on stuff like Bon Jovi and New Kids On The Block rather than anyone in the classical world.

@davidbo8400

Жыл бұрын

@@DavesClassicalGuide He's got a point though, even though I think your list is quite legitimate. And having met and attended composition "master classes" with the last guy on your list, I can safely say he was a source of desperation rather than inspiration. You'd have to be a moron to appreciate his empty and pompous views on music. Still, I wouldn't want to hurt Barenboim's feelings by removing such a fave of his from his shelves.

@robertunwin1148

Жыл бұрын

@@davidbo8400 I also attended a masterclass with Boulez. He was an old man by this stage and was in no way pompous, quite the reverse in fact, quite charming really. Yes he had very firm views on what he thought modern music should be but so what? He wasn't advocating that minimalists or others that didn't hold them should be burnt at the stake or anything. And Reich, Adams, Ades and the rest have been just as brutal to him as he's been to non-modernist composers.

@davidbo8400

Жыл бұрын

@@robertunwin1148 I suppose he got softer as he became older. The charm of old age, I guess. The man himself wasn't pompous, he could even be affable really. But his views were very condescending (towards Charles Ives, Dutilleux or Jazz to name just a few) and empty (the symphony is an obsolete form). I'm glad you had a different, more beneficial experience, than I had, all said and done. Cheers.

Le marteau sans maitre.. I can live without it.

My personal favorite for oblivion has to be Thea Musgrave. In 1977, her Voice of Ariadne premiered at NY City Opera to jeers, catcalls, and thrown programs. The performance stopped.

@annakimborahpa

Жыл бұрын

Does this mean that the Voice of Ariadne was consigned to a grave of muskrats?

@bbailey7818

Жыл бұрын

Very interesting, I didn't know that. I'm fond of her Mary, Queen of Scots and Christmas Carol. Never heard Ariadne.

@rev.markcarrier1894

Жыл бұрын

Harold Shonberg’s review for the NU Times is unfavorable to Ariadne but he doesn’t mention anything like catcalls. In fact, he says there were cheers at the end. I don’t care for her work and would agree we could do without it. I also could live easily without Florence Price, whose work I find exceedingly tedious but who is played a lot on the classical Sirius XM channel, and Charles Stanford.

@annakimborahpa

Жыл бұрын

@@Tolstoy111 Wow, so she's still doing the Muskrat Ramble?

@christophertalbot9488

5 ай бұрын

So you go along with the Mob instead of using your own judgment?

Reminds me of a Tovey essay where he mentions a Viennese Whos Who journal circa1825 There were l think abour 7 Schuberts included but none of them were .the Franz we know and love today

1:13: I thought you were about to say, "Charles...Ives" - and my heart stopped momentarily.

@valerietaylor9615

8 ай бұрын

I loathe Ives.

@marichristian

2 ай бұрын

Same here. Charles Ives is remarkable.

The vast majority of composers who have lived languish in obscurity. Some are discovered by musicians who discover some quality in the music. If others also apprehend that quality over time, the music endures. The opinion of Old Father Time is the only one worth taking notice of.

@bomcabedal

Жыл бұрын

That's a somewhat over-romantic view, I think, because it suggests that a) musical quality is an objective and b) will inevitably be recognized. Both are debatable at the very least. There are tons of great musical pieces languishing in neglect, while Old Father Time's judgment has certainly beeen influenced by marketing, education, and a host of other things.

@normanmeharry58

25 күн бұрын

​@bomcabedal I think this view has traction.

Carter, Telemann, and Boulez. If the local classical station plays any more Tafelmusik, I’ll have to break the radio. Carter: I’ve tried to get his music and never succeeded. Boulez I can’t added anything to what you said.

@ngarber

27 күн бұрын

Don't give up on Telemann. He was frighteningly prolific and the Tafelmusik is a teeny part of his output.

Boulez: So much "Importance" accorded to so little. He was dictator of French music thru arrogant personality, theorizing + political connections, embodying all that's (still) wrong with Modernism. The tyranny of Modernism: the overthrow of traditional orthodoxies, bringing artistic freedom & new ideas, ended up substituting one dogma for another, another stylistic straight jacket, music for elites. Stravinsky said Music is essentially powerless to express anything. So why has it had such an "essential" role in the history of civilization?

Here are my three, with a brief explanation as to why in my not-so-humble opinion: Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji - Long winded sonic muck Karlheinz Stockhausen - Pretentious avant-garde that hasn't aged well at all Antonio Soler - Creator of rather bland and forgettable keyboard works.

@davidbo8400

Жыл бұрын

Stockhausen is hilarious, especially because it hasn't aged well. Sternklang is a favourite. That's when he was formulating compositions for the Sirius people, pun intended.

@robkeeleycomposer

Жыл бұрын

Agreed about Sorabji.

@emtube9298

Жыл бұрын

Regarding Soler, Elizabeth Chojnacka's performances get the blood boiling! But many performances are bland...

@whistlerfred6579

Жыл бұрын

@@emtube9298 I may check this out. Thanks!

@whistlerfred6579

Жыл бұрын

@@emtube9298 I just checked this out on KZread (CDs are apparently unavailable). She does make the music interesting, almost Scarlatti-like, perhaps because it sounds like she uses a big harpsichord with a nice sound (and also because she's a fine musician). Something to add to the Due for Reissue playlist?...

these three omitted won't winnow my cd collection, sadly

I’m always ready to be contrary - but I can’t disagree here. They’d none of them be missed.

When you said Boulez, I laughed out loud!

@aquarius044

5 ай бұрын

So did I. :)

Well, from classical period I'll suggest Bernhard Hendrik Crusell, I'm not sure what he wrote beside those clarinet concerti but I pretty sure we can leave without them. Now, regarding composer of questionable content I'm more than happy to nominate Sorabji and Granville Bantock for total obliteration

@leo32190

10 ай бұрын

Sorabji’s 1st piano sonata is a cornerstone of the genre.

Fascinating question. It would be so easy to pick three fairly obscure or rarely played composers, but what about really major ones who are frequently played? There are some where I don't warm to many of their works - Elgar and Richard Strauss for example - but they still wrote enough great pieces that I would want to save them. Personally I wouldn't really miss Berlioz or Delius despite all their originality, to go alongside obvious options like Schoenberg, Webern, Stockhausen and Boulez.

Some days ago I saw your program and I think you said something like "Parsifal is so boring", and even though I love "Parsifal" (maybe I love boring things) I had to laugh heartily because I think, your way to express your opinion fearlessly and humorously is very refreshing. Well, the discussion about composers that one could do without (as an individual or as humanity as a whole, that's a difference) is of course much fun, but such a discussion also encourages stupid resentment. By the way, I can accept your opinion towards Boulez, but nevertheless I really enjoy listening to some of his pieces, yes, actually. Maybe I just love boring things.

I agree about Wuorinen, but many composers I've talked to argue with me. On the other hand, I enjoy Boulez's orchestral and ensemble music. Indeed, his Sur incises is a favorite work. The piano music I find ugly and turgid. My three: 1. Johann Christian Bach - Although admired by no less than Mozart, his blandness bores me, but I'm not big on the pre-Classical style anyway. 2. Cesar Cui. As far as I know, he never wrote an interesting piece. Because I love Rimsky, Mussorgsky, and Borodin and think Balakirev crazy enough to be stimulating, I really went out of my way to explore. I've even heard, God help me, his opera William Ratcliff. 3. Albert Ketèlby - too quaint for me.

@ThreadBomb

Жыл бұрын

@steveschwartz8944 Have you looked into Gliere at all? His second symphony and his concertos are good (except maybe the cello), and the chamber music is worth investigating. I'd certainly put him above Arensky.

@steveschwartz8944

Жыл бұрын

@ThreadBomb Unfortunately, Gliere has never done it for me, although I believe I understand why others like it.

@valerietaylor9615

8 ай бұрын

I’m rather partial to J.C.Bach myself, and not just because he was a major influence on Mozart. His symphonies are lovely, very suave and melodic. I’ve never heard any of Cui’s music, but it must be anywhere from mediocre to terrible. Maybe that’s why he was such a savage critic of other composer’s works. His review of Rachmaninoff’s first symphony was so scathing ( I believe he said, “If there were a conservatory in Hell, Rachmaninoff would win first prize for this symphony”, or words to that effect), that Rachmaninoff fell into such a deep depression, that he stopped composing for two years and had to be treated by a hypnotherapist (which resulted in his Piano Concerto No. 2, but I won’t go into that.)

@timothybridgewater5795

8 ай бұрын

Are you the Steve Schwartz who wrote Godspell and Wicked?

@steveschwartz8944

8 ай бұрын

@@timothybridgewater5795 No, but I wish I had his income.

Havergal Brian, Michael Finnissy, Hans Pfitzner

@normanmeharry58

25 күн бұрын

Oh not Brian. I wasted hard-earned on Brian and rarely listen to it. But some day I might rediscover him... I hope.

@stefanhorlitz

23 күн бұрын

@@normanmeharry58 what's good about his music?

@johnenock7939

9 күн бұрын

@@stefanhorlitz How many of his symphonies have you actually listened to?

@stefanhorlitz

9 күн бұрын

@@johnenock7939 about 5 or 6. And the 1st counts for 4. i know there are three dozens.

@johnenock7939

9 күн бұрын

@@stefanhorlitz Well, if you want recommendations (you may not of course) I'd go for symphonies 6 - 12, ignoring the first five and the later ones. But, really, I found I needed to listen to them a number of times before appreciating the Brian 'vibe'.

You did open the hate fest Pandora's box here for spluttering rage against almost anyone who wrote the music! Proving again how the arts, in general, are not always enjoyed with rational intelligence, but to a great degree emotional cues unrelated to the pure music itself. Many proto-Cancrizan's here-most interesting results of your post, eh!? I do agree with your choices, by the way-look forward to the next slug-fest.

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

Actually it's a sobering commentary on human nature, isn't it? It kind of explains to me why so many people voted for Trump. No one wants to pass up the opportunity to express their loathing or give the establishment "the finger," and it doesn't really matter what that "establishment" is.

@bloodgrss

Жыл бұрын

@@DavesClassicalGuide Indeed Dave, I think you are correct; unfortunately. There is a marvelous book titled "Whatever it is, I'm Against It." where someone has gathered together many of the worst critiques written about many great luminaries of past and present. It is as astonishing reading, as many of the posts here are. Tho' someone's personal life experience and 'world' may have informed how they react to a particular composer's music +or--, some of the anger and disdain are disturbing. I would only add that (per your Trump allusion), our increasing 'choose a side then attack' society may let prejudice and narrow-minded comprehension/music education play a part as well. But, after you weed out some of the shoutings, there is as always on your channel some intelligent debate and discussion; a thing we need desperately (and with civility) in a challenging society ruled by the sound bite. I always thank you for providing a forum for that, along with the learning and discoveries. All the best...

The donkey by the ears mate Thank for respecting your critical faculties and putting them above mere fashion and fads Couldnt agree with you more

Agree on Charles Wuorinen. I listened to a CD with his music many times (because Carla Bley mentioned the composer in an interview) but the music never meant anything to me. But then again, 99,9% of contemporary music is played, marketed and performed because the composer has to make a living.

If there was one composer I'd be happy never to listen to again (besides Boulez) it would have to be Sorabji. This lone figure produced vast piano compositions which are truly unlistenable. I tried once and had to lie down in a dark room for several hours to recover.

@jonathanpowell9715

Ай бұрын

I'm one of the weirdos who loves Sorabji, but would never make anyone else listen to him if they didn't like him. You've got to sort of be into that stuff. I don't mind Wuoronin either.

My three: Nepomuk Hummel, Morton Feldman and Boulez. An interesting exercise Dave thank you. Please reply if you think my three Worthy

@timothybridgewater5795

8 ай бұрын

If you'd been following Dave as assiduously as I have you would know that he thinks highly of Feldman

More please!

I add my comment just to bring a different, sincere as much as discordant point of view: Boulez is for sure one of the composers I would less ready to do without. I can easily mention Marteau, Rituel, Derive, Memorial, Sur incises among the works I listen to with true pleasure, since several decades, without ever getting bored or tired. from the other side, I am perfectly aware that if I list a few names of composers I could do without this express my limits rather than my understanding or even taste. I would be probably prone to include Telemann, Saint-Saëns and Glass. Dave, I'll do without Fasch as well! I agree with so many of your opinions about music, and I can agree on this point as well!

@DavesClassicalGuide

Ай бұрын

Fair enough. I've always liked Rituel.

I’m a trumpet player, and the Fasch is my wife’s favorite piece in my repertoire! I like it too. 😢

The idea of eliminating all of Pierre Boulez' compositions is such a horrifically wrong opinion. (The piano sonatas could go, and I wouldn't miss them, but how can one not appreciate "Le Marteau sans maître," "Le Visage nuptial," "Sur incises" or many other quite listenable and enjoyable works of his?) Why can't you eliminate Adolphe Adam or Fromental Halévy instead, if you need a French composer?

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

Because they are infinitely superior and vastly more important.

@stepanvalek3363

Жыл бұрын

@@DavesClassicalGuide Wow, you really don't like him, Dave, do ya?

@silviofernandez585

Ай бұрын

@@stepanvalek3363 Dave is 100% correct. Adolphe Adam or Fromental Halévy beautiful music!

This sounds like the kind of "reverse" psychology that could appeal to a Cancrizans. 🤣 I have to give my "lizst" some thought.

Rock channels do this often. Comments contemptuous of Led Zeppelin or The Beatles will get attention, but it'll peter out quickly. I'm wondering whether the classical equivalents will get the same in the comments here. Boulez is the only one of the three cited that meant anything to me, so I must hear Wuorinen and Fasch asap! Empathy with the underdog or just curiosity? Time to find out.

This is why folks are afraid of "classical music." The fear of liking a work an "expert" dismisses as trash and being embarrassed for liking that work.

@DavesClassicalGuide

5 ай бұрын

No one should ever be afraid of liking trssh or worry about expert opinions. That was the point of this video.

@krommer66

5 ай бұрын

You did it again.

@battlestarclassica

Ай бұрын

"Experts" dismiss pop music albums, novels, tv shows, movies, ad nauseum.

@windsofchange9457

21 күн бұрын

@@DavesClassicalGuide What is an expert is the question.

@rloomis3

Күн бұрын

The Philadelphia _Inquirer's_ music critic, Lesley Valdes, wrote a very good article in the '80s called "The Fear of New Symphonic Music." One of her main points was just what you bring up - that people worry there's a "correct" response to a piece, and if they "get it wrong," they'll look like fools.

Boulez, Spohr and Kotzwara

I could live without Miaskovsky, without conductor Benjamin Zander and without Tihon Hrenikov.

I feel you are going to upset a lot of people with your third choice - and that probably won't worry you one iota.

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

Why should it?

@johnmarchington3146

Жыл бұрын

No reason whatsoever. We're all entitled to have an opinion. I had two friends, sadly no longer with us, who loathed Le Sacre du Printemps, whereas I have long regarded it as one of the towering masterpieces of the 20th century.

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

@@johnmarchington3146 But you're right. It's the difference between fact and opinion. Let's not mix the two. I dislike all kinds of things but Sacre's importance and iconic status is beyond questioning, whether you like it or not.

Can I suggest Hummel and 9:07 07 Peter Maxwell Davies? I would say that Fasch did write some lovely orchestral suites that sound like Telemann. Agreed about Wuorinen apart from his Reliquary, a large part of which is by Stravinsky!

@MofosOfMetal

Жыл бұрын

I love Hummel. Stephen Hough's recordings of his Piano Concertos and Piano Sonatas are deliciously virtuosic and dramatic.

@HassoBenSoba

Жыл бұрын

@@MofosOfMetal And Hummel's B-minor Piano Concerto, op. 89, is a masterpiece, IMO. Almost as if Beethoven himself decided to offer advice, so that his rival might compose one work of true stature. LR

@iankemp1131

Жыл бұрын

Would be very sorry to lose Hummel's Trumpet Concerto which is pretty much the best trumpet concerto ever written. I think it just has the edge over Haydn's. Alison Balsam's recording is pretty stunning.

@robkeeleycomposer

10 ай бұрын

@@MofosOfMetal I'll give him another go!

@robkeeleycomposer

10 ай бұрын

@@iankemp1131 I'll give it a shot!

Oh, thank you for this! I SO agree! The music to Wuorinen's BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN opera had NOTHING to do with what was going on onstage by a gifted cast and stage director. NOTHING but irrelevant shrieks and random squawks from the orchestra; it amazed me that the singers could even find their pitches! The audience was fleeing in droves. P.S. Thank you for including Boulez, the most overrated composer of the 20th Century IMO, an often brilliant conductor and musician, but a TERRIBLE composer of unlistenable "music!"

'Hey, Cank....' 🤣

There are a lot of minor baroque composers who end up being played on radio 3, it just sounds like notespinning! And any composer of minimalist music! I just dont get it!

I am shcoked by the replied here some very juvenile! I have very eclectic tastes and seek to explore plenty which I don't know,. Wuorinen is similar to Miton Babbit in that they are academic composers composing from the outside in.

@robertunwin1148

Жыл бұрын

I agree. Although taste is subjective I find a lot of the comments on here childishly bizarre, and are merely trying to pass off ignorance and incurious philistinism as justly considered criticism. Someone on here basically suggested that nearly all of 20th and 19th century music post c.1830 should be obliterated!🤣🤣🤣

@valerietaylor9615

8 ай бұрын

I think most music written after 1900 should go.

@sansumida

8 ай бұрын

@@valerietaylor9615 I like your sense of humour troll 🤣

@valerietaylor9615

7 ай бұрын

@sansumida I wasn’t joking.

@sansumida

7 ай бұрын

@@valerietaylor9615 if that is not a joke then music after 1900 is forever dead!

This really gets to a highly personal level. For instance, I personally could get along very well indeed without Rachmaninoff's music. But I would never contemplate depriving anybody else of his music.

@annakimborahpa

Жыл бұрын

Marilyn Monroe couldn't have done without the Second Piano Concerto in the 1955 film The Seven Year Itch.

@catfdljws

Жыл бұрын

I'm now surprised Rachmaninoff didn't come to mind when I picked my 3. I picked up the EMI symphony + concertos box and it kinda sat after the first listen. it was shocking how out of date it was - I'm reading these pieces were done in the 1910s and 1920s and they felt older than Brahams at times. I admit, incredible melodies (good enough for pop stars to steal from :) ) but...the foundation under them was just so typical 19th century at a time when Ravel, Debussy, etc were pushing harmonic edges. He couldn't claim neo-classical (he was still writing as a romantic) nor Stalin's committees (which drove Prokofiev and Shostakovich into retro) for what he did. He simply was a good Romantic composer 30 years too late to be seen as a great one.

@feraudyh

Жыл бұрын

@@catfdljws so what if Rach was out of date?

@ThreadBomb

Жыл бұрын

@@catfdljws Fashion has nothing to do with good music.

@valerietaylor9615

8 ай бұрын

Audiences still love Rachmaninoff, and rightly so. His music is beautiful! And his second Piano Concerto was also used in the soundtrack to the British film, “Brief Encounter”, starring Trevor Howard, Celia Johnson, and directed by Noel Coward.

Dear Dave, This is a first note....I've been watching you on my television, but this morning I decided to try KZread on my computer. First, it's "CLOYt-ens"...according to the French conductor to helmed our LAKME in Seattle; Second, when you gave the Thumbs Up to the Jochum Brahms Symphonies, you restored my faith in Music Critics. I first found the Jochum in a cassette box set on a remainder table and have loved it ever since....Thank you for many hours of great criticism.

@DavesClassicalGuide

Ай бұрын

Just because you were nice and love Jochum I will not ban you forever for correcting my pronunciation! Just don't, please. I'm sure Cluytens wouldn't get my name right either.

Excellent concernant Boulez 👍, en français ce n'est pas loin de boulet 🤣. . . il faut que je vérifie, j'ai au moins un CD avec son nom dessus (interprète, ou compositeur, je ne sais même pas, tellement je l'écoute peu) 😮

Dave, I have to say that I'm disappointed. I find the premise of this topic mean-spirited. I think of this from a composer's perspective. I compose music, and while I admit that I'm a relative novice and I'm always working to improve my craft, the thought that a composer and his/her work are best forgotten really hits me hard...especially since my name and popularity are not even of a fraction of the status of those who are posed here. Where does that leave me? Shall I just give up and go away? Although I feel every note and passage I compose, am I best forgotten? If I died and every musical thought I've ever had died with me, would it matter to anyone? Even though I know the answers to these questions, not all of us are accomplished enough to have our names in the record stores or in the newspapers or magazines and that realization is painful enough.

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

I wish I could say I feel sorry for you, but I don't. If you want to compose, then compose from your heart, do what you can to get performed, and leave the rest to posterity. That's how this works. If you don't want to be judged, go do something else. I know this sound harsh, and I'm sorry for that--I really am--but if the need for self-expression and the act of fulfilling that need aren't enough for you, then you need to be in another business. Enjoy yourself and can the pity party. No one will be coming. With that said, I wish you lots of luck and every success.

@bplonutube

2 ай бұрын

I feel sorry for people who don’t have a sense of humor

@cabindweller8454

Ай бұрын

But there is so much horrible music out there. Country I could do without. Rap. Rock. Punk. Bluegrass. And yes, classical. If it was easy, everybody would be awesome.

@donkeychan491

Ай бұрын

It's still a noble effort. Maybe one day the AI's will sift through all the long-forgotten music and elevate some of it back into public consciousness. Nobody can predict the aesthetics of the future.

@user-uf2ox2mh1m

20 күн бұрын

When you play music you get lost in reverie…So compose to compose not for recognition or money.

Can we can add Andre Previn to this list? I saw his opera of Streetcar in Melbourne many years ago. Terrible.

@Carls_Piano

3 ай бұрын

I guess I can say I'm glad I saw it, but not sure exactly why I feel that way... Haha, interesting suggestion

@celloguy

Ай бұрын

Totally disagree. It’s a masterpiece, just needs a superb cast. Listen to the Fleming recording with the composer.

When he started to say "I think, personally..." I really thought he was about to say, "Purcell" (as in Henry) and wondered why he so disliked the composer of Dido and Aeneus

@macklindsey4541

5 ай бұрын

Noticed it too. I sighed with relief.

I could manage without the compositions of Furtwangler, quite happily.

I totally agree with your take on Boulez. I would happily live without Philip Glass. I saw him and his ensemble in the 1970s playing some of his Music in 12 Parts. It drove me crazy, it was so loud and my head was spinning after. I'm not particularly fond of "Minimalism" and could live without any of it, but he is the bitter end for me. Along side him I add Michael Nyman and Karl Jenkins - what pointless composers, they add nothing to my life. From the "Golden Age", I can live without Telemann, every time I hear him I think "so what?"

@valerietaylor9615

8 ай бұрын

I think Telemann is worth saving, if only for his Water Music, “Hambuger Ebb Und Fluss”, and his “Don Quichotte” Suite.

@dorette-hi4j

5 ай бұрын

@@valerietaylor9615 And especially for his oratorio Der Tag des Gerichts (there's a great Harnoncourt recording of it ).

My three: Albinoni - His most famous work isn’t even his, and most of his stuff is lost anyway. Gubaidulina - Willing to bet that 10 years after she croaks, no orchestra will play anything she’s ever written. Boulez - not just due to his insignificance as a composer, but due to what an a**hole he was, calling Hindemith “second-rate” and Shostakovich “a second or third pressing of Mahler”. Well, where are they and where is he now?

@robkeeleycomposer

10 ай бұрын

Thank God someone else thinks that way about Gubaidulina - I thought it was just me .

@valerietaylor9615

8 ай бұрын

Albinoni was good (okay, maybe not the Adagio, which he didn’t even right.) But he wrote some beautiful Oboe concertos ( the oboe was his favorite instrument). He was at least as good as Vivaldi, though he didn’t write as much (didn’t have to, because he was rich.)

I walked out on Birdwhistle (sp?). I'd rather chew sand.

Annie Proulx's Brokeback Mountain is a ±30-page short story, not a novel.

@barrymoore4470

5 ай бұрын

Right, and Wuorinen's opera (with libretto by Proulx) was adapted from the short story, rather than from the famous 2005 film, itself an adaptation of Proulx's original work.

I could not live without Boulez😢

@weewee2169

3 ай бұрын

whats one piece or small part of a piece of his i would like

@murraylow4523

3 ай бұрын

Perusing this after some time - I thought this talk would irritate me so I didn’t go there. I’d suggest Boulez’ “Sur Incises” which is for three pianos three harps and a load of percussion (including steel drums). Hardly easy listening but it does get pretty exciting and although recording can’t quite capture the “spatial “ layout of hearing it live, it’s a good example of how Boulez is not always what you expect

@James-eb9gs

2 күн бұрын

Notations. A friend of mine, a composer who I very often agreed with was over the moon about Boulez's second piano sonata. I need to keep listening because it still hasn't won me over.

For me it will have to be Sorabji, Mereaux and Spohr

@elijahstewart3231

Жыл бұрын

the Sorabji cult is insufferable

@fedegwagwa

Жыл бұрын

@@elijahstewart3231 can't stand it

@ThreadBomb

Жыл бұрын

@@fedegwagwa I don't know what music of Spohr's you've heard, but his chamber music is good (setting aside the innumerable quartets).

@fedegwagwa

Жыл бұрын

@@ThreadBomb I didn't hear his whole output, but yea the pieces I enjoy more of him are all chamber music, particularly the sonatas for Violin, flute etc. He was not an idiot obviously, he can compose and occasionally he did write nice pieces. But in general, I find his music lacks personality and originality. Sometimes it's really just boring, and he always goes where you expect him to go. I'm not hating on him but he always comes to my mind when I'm thinking of artistic banalry

@valerietaylor9615

8 ай бұрын

If there’s anything Spohr should be remembered for, it’s the fact that he introduced the use of the baton in conducting.

Thanks for the warning.

John Adams (the composer, not the President!), Antonio Salieri and John Williams (is he considered a classical composer?) If he isn't, I''ll put John Cage in his place.

@xxsaruman82xx87

Жыл бұрын

John Williams is definitely a classical as well as a film composer; he's written a number of concert works, but none of them are as interesting as his film music.

@angryjalapeno

Жыл бұрын

@@xxsaruman82xx87 Agree. I find John William's "classical" works are devoid of life.

John Adams. I revere the Cleveland Orchestra, my hometown band, but for the life of me cannot understand why they are so smitten by Adams' music. I cannot think of a single composition by him I've heard, some of them in person, that I would want to hear again.

@poturbg8698

Жыл бұрын

I was given a free ticket to hear CLE do the Transmigration of Souls (Adams). As if reading the names of the dead would redeem the empty music. At least Mahler 4 was on the same program to make it worthwhile to have sat through Adams.

@willsingourd2523

11 ай бұрын

@@erikthenorviking8251 If he did, it would have to be a darkly comical piece. She was strangled to death with one of her own famously long scarves which had trailed out her limousine window and got caught up in one of the wheels!

@peterpan8147

2 ай бұрын

Nixon in China is one of my favorites. Seen it several times in the 90s, when the Peter Sellars production was in Frankfurt with Adams conducting.

@MrDjango1953

2 ай бұрын

i mistakenly read ''some of them in prison'!

@arvidlystnur4827

Ай бұрын

John Adams sounds like Pat Metheny, or to be precise, music Pat wrote but discarded in the waste bin.

What's with the massive Spohr vote?? I find him subtlely really inventive in the chamber works. That inventiveness is perhaps obscured by the smooth presentation of his music - the result of a consumate and masterful technique. Thumbs up to save Spohr!!

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

Nah. They have a point. Masterful technique, maybe, but generally devoid of inspiration. Even Spohr himself recognized this when he talked about his string quartets being, essentially, "over composed."

@cloudymccloud00

Жыл бұрын

Spohr's clarinet concertos are amongst the greatest in the repertoire, imo - rivaliing Mozart's. He should be saved for those alone, at least!

@HassoBenSoba

Жыл бұрын

@@cloudymccloud00 And his Concerto for String Quartet and Orchestra, op. 131, is as good as any work of the era NOT written by a certified master. LR

@bbailey7818

Жыл бұрын

@@DavesClassicalGuide Not only that, I've always thought Gilbert's line, "by Bach interwoven with Spohr and Beethoven" is much better when Brahms is substituted for Spohr.

@ThreadBomb

Жыл бұрын

Spohr was best when writing for unfamiliar groups of instruments. His piano trios are very fine (and influential on Brahms). See also his quintet for piano and winds, and his octet and nonet. And then there are the double quartets and the string sextet! The quartets aren't bad, but there are too many and they mostly sound like Haydn.

Poor Charles; such a dour fellow. I was part of the cast in "Haroun and the Sea of Stories" at NYCO, and I always felt bad for the guy. He just never seemed very happy. The piece was fun, however...

My three are Graupner Xenakis Thalberg I think they all made some sort of a splash and they all are from different time periods

Roger Sessions, Max Reger (presuming he's sufficiently golden-age-y), Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji. To my ear, the first wrote music that's well-crafted but unrelentingly dissonant. The other two had a compulsion to complicate, and I don't have time to listen to them.

@ernstraedecker6174

Жыл бұрын

I once listened to a continuous drizzle fizzle drab of notes, and it turned out to be Reger. Then I listened to another drizzle of notes, and it turned out to be Reger AGAIN. Then I heard etc.

@valerietaylor9615

8 ай бұрын

One dark and stormy night, a band of robbers were sitting in a cave. And the leader of the band stood up and said, “Jack, stand up and tell a story.” So Jack stood up and said, “One dark and stormy night a band of robbers were sitting in a cave. And the leader of the band said, ‘Jack, stand up and tell a story’. So Jack stood up and said…”

Spohr, Michael Haydn, Previn (and music of other conductors: Futwängler, Dorati, Maazel……)

@ThreadBomb

Жыл бұрын

Spohr's chamber music (setting aside the quartets) is worth saving.

I'm an amateur composer in Montreal 76 years old In the 1960's I couldn't get into modern classical music I thought I must be to conservative but twenty years later after the atonal I worship i really like new music now . When you mentioned Boulez I started to laugh yes yes I like from Part to Stephanie Ann Boyd

@thomassmith3841

5 ай бұрын

I like it that you mention Boyd. I think she's got a lot of promise (still in her 20s I believe).

With all respect, I find your ending off this talk by saying "Keep on listening" rather ironic

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

I don't see why. If you don't listen, you can't judge. And if you're not going to judge, there's no point in listening.