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Like the sailor that suggested it, I utilise similar onboard my boat. As a suggestion, try replacing the 'pulling clutch' with an equal sized nylon cord with the core removed, this has allowed me to grip dyneema to tension it where a dyneema clutch has slipped. Would be interested to see the breaking strain of that combination! Thanks for the excellent content 👍

Having just watched some of your stuff on whoopie slings, I was think about how all but one tinny spot is double strength. The concept you tested here occurred to me, but I had no idea if it would hold. Thanks for doing the test! I'm someone that will benefit from your testing, and I don't even climb. I'll be putting it to use for a winch extension line for recovering stuck 4X4's (which I do on a volunteer basis). Your work has wide ranging applications. Thanks.

If you saw this video theres a really good chance we survived lol

@patrickcrabb6212

Жыл бұрын

Hmmm, but you can never be 100% sure. For all we know he has video clocked to go up after something unfortunate happens, and we would never know.

PSA IT WILL CREEP! You gave me this idea when I saw a whoopie sling on your video years ago. I use this "clutch open whoopie" method for a 3/8" amsteel infinitely adjustable tow strap/ rigging strap for a small crane. Brummel on each end Chinese finger trap in the middle, loaded as you have done here. IT CREEPS!! With my 3/8" dyneema with ~2 foot bury under ~1000lb of force. It will CREEP ABOUT 2FEET/ HOUR. Still works well for me for quick jobs. Thanks for all the great ideas and info from your videos!!!!!

@error.418

Жыл бұрын

pounds (lb) is not a force. I think you mean 1000 foot-pounds (ft⋅lbf) of force?

@patrickwiseman2012

Жыл бұрын

@@error.418 ​ pounds force [lbf] and pounds mass (on earth) [lb] are not the same but are usually used interchangeably. The proper unit of mass in the imperial system is the [slug]. What you mentioned, foot pounds [ft-lbf] is a unit of torque or rotational force.

@error.418

Жыл бұрын

​@@patrickwiseman2012 The foot-pound force (symbol: ft⋅lbf, ft⋅lbf, or ft⋅lb) is a unit of work or energy in the engineering and gravitational systems in United States customary and imperial units of measure. It is the energy transferred upon applying a force of one pound-force (lbf) through a linear displacement of one foot.

@error.418

Жыл бұрын

@@patrickwiseman2012 I think what you're thinking of is the pound-foot (lbf⋅ft), a unit of torque. It is NOT the same as the foot-pound.

You can increase the tension on the constrictor dyneema by adding a loop on the end. Wrap the loop around the main line (it's sort of a clove around the main line). That will pull the constrictor tighter, so it grips better and creeps/slips less. If you search images of "UCR hammock suspension" you'll see what I mean.

@jdagilliland

Жыл бұрын

I've had better results making a Prusik style knot out of the loop, but year, I think doing that would radically reduce the amount of bury he needs to keep it from slipping.

@kincheng

Жыл бұрын

My thoughts as well. Without the tension from the opposite direction there is nothing holding the finger trap closed. I’ve seen elastic cord added as well to the prussik tensioner side. Lots of examples in hammock and tarp forums

@areteclimbing

Жыл бұрын

Was thinking the same, alongside - Seeing as it breaks at the point that the cord emerges, what if you left the end inside. Maybe not suitable for this purpose but would be interesting to see how it performs for other applications.

You've got a UCR (universal constrictor rope). The 'tail' end, where the cut part is, if you put just a little bit of tension in the direction of pull (a friction knot made with a rubberband on the main line will be enough), it will hold better!

@DavyRayVideo

Жыл бұрын

Yes, UCRs are the main alternative in the hammock world to whoopies.

I love that you are getting back to sailing as inspiration. Sailing has inspired so much of climbing's ropework from the get-go.

Well done. I suggest adding tension to the loose tail. A bungee cord to an anchor rope to a bag of hammers over the side would do.

In hammock circles, the equivalent is the utility constrictor rope used for adjustable ridgelines.

This is an amazing idea honestly.

i think i dropped a link to the ronstan constrictor a few weeks ago. sailboats will all have textile clutches in the future. presently clutches resemble ascenders that are bolted to the deck in a row. the textile clutch is cheaper, easier to fix, does less damage to the rope, and is a lot stronger than steel.

the cross pollination between climbers, boaters, tree guys, offroad guys is great. You can often learn something new from someone that uses the same material, rope, but thinks of it in a different way

Fascinating! Thank you for sharing!

On the 2.7k line, we did not need the shower curtain method because we could lay the webbing on the ground, but for the line with the flags we needed to tension 4mm dyneema. In the end, we went with 2 km of 4mm dyneema in the middle, and the ends were 8mm polyester rope (400m on each side) which we pulled with VT knots.

@augustinmoinat761

Жыл бұрын

But even this method would not have worked, if we had to pull a flag through...

@HowNOT2

Жыл бұрын

I’m wondering if I can vt Prusik would work, like a meter or 2 long, so it’s removable. Not sure if a dyneema vt would work on vt. Not sure if I can pass segments spliced into each other through the clutch. Clutches seem too permanent for sure. Or I pre install a lot of clutches per potential hiccup.

one metric foot. Love it.

Ryan, it’d be super interesting if you tested a sailing cam clutch (or various types of boat line clutches) because there might be an effective way for you to mount those to a metal plate that you tie off to an anchor. I’m much more a sailor than I am a climber, so I’d absolutely love to see the results, and just maybe it’d add a new tool to your arsenal!

Rad video, Ryan!!

Thanks very much for this video. What a great idea.

So niche. Love it!

As a thought the probable reason why the clutch slipped lower than other similar tests is because only one end was tentioned. A solution to this would be a length of dyneema with an eye splice on each end, you use one eye for anchor the middle as the clutch and the last eye as a tensioner. Bungee cord maybe.

would love a video on complex highline rigging. I've heard of the curtain rod but don't know much about it.

Thanks. The eye held because the fixed part is tensioned. How about tensioning the open end by brummel splicing the long line through the dyneema first, and then bury it? That way you will tension the short side and thus have more holding strength.

If you are far enough from the edge, attach a bungee to the end of the finger and anchor it near the edge. This helps collapse the finger around the rope. Think of the capstan equation, The capstan is a force multiplier, However, even if the multiplier is 1000, zero initial force times 1000 is still zero force.

Danke!

For your "grabbing side splice" maybe you could do a slightly smaller diameter than the actual line being pulled threw. That way it could have more of a grabbing effect/chinese finger trapping... if that makes sense.

I "invented" this concept for spearfishing for fighting tuna in a way that wouldnt damage our epdm bungees around 15 to 18 years ago, around 2 or 3 years after we started selling it and named it a clutch, harken had it in their catalog. Since I'm not is the sailing world it could have already existed without me knowing about it ,but I had never seen it before when I started making them and we named it . A patient attorney friend wrote us a patient application for it for us because it was such a game changer for what we do

I saw a video of a modified version of a woopie sling with an eye on the "tail" end of your "outside" piece. The eye was wrapped around the long piece twice to keep tension, so the inside piece locks in better. Hope that made sense and helps.

Only thing I've done recently is I make turk's heads as a belt accessory loop. Usually with a welded or forged ring through it for keys or wrenches or what have you. I made one out of 1/8" dynema & back spliced the ends together before evening it all out. That was a challenge for sure in a 3 pass 3 strand turk's head. Once buried it looked fair. Not my best work but still fun & strong enough to bend the ring before anything else shifted. Looking forward to the teased highline video.

06/29/2023 This is how a water ski rope is tied off. Only diff is ski rope is not dynema and the tail of the handle end or the loop end is threaded once through across the straight line with a half hitch back through the eye of the handle end then threaded through the line before. I have enjoyed this slipage a few times until I bought a new ski rope and saw how the factory spliced the eye as above. Also the recommended length of the tail into the sleeve was 36 to 72 times the diameter of the rope. I have used this method of splicing ski rope several times each summer for myself and other sport warter skiers. Wet fun until you get too old, if ever. Some ski into their 90's. I never heard the tech name of this knot but you can see it in any boat shop. Don

I think it can be used as grab to help tensioning the line then you can do the splice on the extra piece of the rope without the hassle. Like that you don't have to worry about the slipping problem.

3:04 sounds just like what I do for when I would tighten my anchors lines fer my Mackerel trap

Glad you didn't die!

i would put a knot around the pulling line with the end of the clutch. Just something to grab the pulling line and tighten the clutch,

Try to compress the splicing, tie a thread around it, a couple of turns! Do that at the end where the inner line is being drawn out. This would hopefully compress all the splicing ... Try it!

you could also take some twine or some fat thread and wrap small section of the clutch to help it not slip

I cobbled a zipline together out of some old rope and parts from work that were going into the bin a few years ago, it's one of my first videos and that thing sure was fun. But sketchy too lol, end up taking it down once the neighbor mentioned his grandkids had been eyeballing it

The reason there is no slippage on the eye side is because all of the outer layer is in tension so all of it gets compressed around the inner. Where it slips it is only the friction between the outer and inner layers that tension the outer layer. That means if it does not grip initially at the end the friction there can be very low. When it starts to slip the tension is gone and there is no longer any compression so it will just continue to do that Some way to tension it would increase the strength or perhaps more exactly stop it from starting to slip. It could be something separate that just pulls on it, if you use it to tension the system leave the end long and just pull with your hand so it locks. A Brummel splice-trouhg the line in tension should lock it all together, it will be problematic when you work with it. Some lock stitching likely increases the strength too.

The Chinese finger trap solution seems rather elegant.

I'd love to see you test loopie (not whoopie) sling at some point. I suspect it would have a similar issue to this concept, and I don't know how long the bury would need to be for it to hold! Amazing content btw. I watch a lot of what you put out there! Keep making it up!

Couldn't sleep. Watched this at 4am. Now I really can't sleep. 😆

crazy idea, so you do your splice, then on the ded end of the main line, stuff essentially a knitting needle in (blunt and not pokey of course) creating an easily removable fat spot that the fanger trap section couldn't slip over, though it woud create a potential bending and therefore breakage point on the temporary eye, but it should prevent slippage while still being field removable without stitching (in logging we stick finishing nails into the ferule ends to prevent the cable from pulling out, sort of the same idea)

Adding a friction hitch helps the bury grab.

Check out a wire rope ‘sock’ these work in a very similar way on other hard to grip materials.

I'm a big wall climber... I don't know wtf Ryan is talking about right now but ima like (already subbed; are you?) and move along. :)

hey man, i work in special effects and stunt riggign, the way we terminate open ended dyneema is on a mobile bollard. yust wrap it a ton like you would your winch.... easyest way to get one is from an arborist shop, they use them as decenders for heavy pieces of wood. you might also consider using vectran (aramid) since that stuff is less slippy, but is quite noisy under load. that you push your luck by using 5mm you seem to already know ;)

Uh, dude..... I could probably use this trick for doing synthetic cabling systems in trees. I think this will move the arborist world forward a step possibly .

Fid the eye line into the main line and leave the tail inside, you should get more tension than putting main line inside the eye line.

...whipping ends, tapering buries, stitching throats and temporarily whip / secure the line being hauled - to convince the "fingertrap" to stay closed. good show.

Constrictor clutches have a shockcord tensioner, to hold and release it.

We use this splicing method to repair the rope we use to launch our sailplanes. What we pay attention to: -Closed loop: We feed 0.6m(60cm) back into the rope. On the last 10cm we cut out individual cardelines to make the transition smoother. -Connection of 2 ropes: Same as above except that we insert each end of the rope 0.6m into the other rope.

Have you tested a tiger knot with dynema?

What you are looking for is a ucr. Instead of having the tail of the finger trap just hanging tie a friction hitch to the working end.

Long woopie slings loose holding power. You can make multiple berries separated that back each other up but small enough to force the grab. Like a prussic with to many wraps loose holding power.

Why not use a portawrap? Can tension and lock it off.

I wonder if crossing the long line through to the other side of the short line an inch or two after it comes out would help it hold. Leaving a bit more on the end of the short line and burying it into the long line when you've got it at the length you want woukd probably help too.

Yeah, I experimented with the detached Whoopie sling configuration and concluded that it had a tendency to open up from the untensioned end.

I have seen something like that. It was on a huge tent. They used it to guy the main pole up. I thought it was a huge woppie but the rope that was "clutched" thru came out of the where it was spliced and back in again. At that part they kept a carabiner that I assume to lock it into place. Not sure on the details.

Would dental elastics hinder or help in a short term with extra compression?

I dont climb but hammock camp, I make my own whoopie slings, dog bones, etc with dyneema. When I make fixed loops in dyneema I pass the line through itself twice first, each end. This creates a lock on the loop then I bury the end, at least 5x the diameter. Im curious if your technique or mine retains more of the line strength.

There’s no love like geek love.

It’s also tensioned completely different to an eye. The finger trap is pulled tight on the eye but on this join I think most the trap isn’t pulled tight along it’s whole length. I guess I would need a diagram to explain properly what I’m saying but I hope it makes some sense

How bout this? What if you spliced both ends of the "clutch"? You anchor the "pull" end and the "trap" end in line with the rope. Then splice in the rope and tension the clutch from the trap side. Release, pull, tension, repeat. The clutch will be doing the all work and giving the rope the FULL finger trap effect. You wouldn't need as long of a splice on the rope AND if you control the tension you can release or pull the rope at will like a real clutch.

Can you test kootenay pulley tie off knot with dyneema?

How about if you re-bury your tail inside the fixed eye? Bet holding the tail back inline and following the direction change along with friction around whatever it's attached to will hold it better than just flopping out the side loose. Or maybe that is superfluous once you have a long enough "clutch".

what hapens if you whip or bind the open end of the finger trap? you would probably have to goldylocks the tension of the whipping, too tight would create a stress point, not tight enough would do nothing.

Even if this doesn't work to create a "clutch" it at least is good for converting line into tent poles.

Why is the dyneema stiff after your tests? Did it melt a bit while slipping out (like using rope to cut another rope)?

Never done any highline or crazy ziplines like this, so not sure if this is common practice, but I'd never trust spliced dyneema. Stuff is sooo slippery..

At slack feb we used a rescue figure 8 to hold the amsteel at the tension end of the clothesline. Stronger than a knot, easy to adjust, no splicing needed.

@truc2fou915

Жыл бұрын

You're locking the rescue figure 8 with a classic tie off or something else?

@TomGoBravo

Жыл бұрын

To be honest i don't remember, there was almost no tension after some wraps on the eight

I've tried that before. I think the problem is that it needs a good milking to get tight enough to pull the other line end to close the "finger trap". In my tests it worked ok with some lines and not at all in other lines and with some cords it worked sometimes. It is more or less a matter of luck if you get friction at the right end (pulling the cut end of the rope that has bury in it) or not (other end does not tighten the trap). The smoother the dyneema, the less likely that is to work I think. In my use case (adjustable 10m) I went for a whoopie (no good for 2km :). Whoopie has the benefit that it pulls also the outer cord that will close the trap. Having a 50% of load pulling the line that closes the trap generated enough friction.

your problem is that "fingertrap" is not engaging itself. Reminds me of how mechanical Prusiks like petzl zigzag engages itself - a tiny bit of friction on the "upper" side of the device. I bet if you put a piece of ductape at the end of a sleve it will perform better

We have been melting aluminum over at Burden's house...we should pour some carabiners and you should break test them.

@nos9784

Жыл бұрын

Best of luck! I'm all for diy, but i hope i'll never have to cast my own carabiners.😅 If I ever need custom ones, I'll forge them or just bend them from stainless steel after looking up it's cold forming and welding characteristics and elongation limits. Or pay a professional... I hope your project works out :) one day, i'll get my own crucible :)

Do you have videos on how to have enough braking room for home rigged ziplines?

Check out the safe xtract x lock for 4wd winch lines. Its like a big double sided cleat specifically for shorting synthetic winch lines.

@markt9028

Жыл бұрын

The reason it slips is your "finger trap" is only milked to constrict it, when you do this in a eye splice the tension in the line constricts over the bury. In your case the "finger trap" has no tension on it to constrict it.

@nos9784

Жыл бұрын

​​@@markt9028 i wonder if this is a case were even "a little" friction on the first part of the "finger trap" would create a reliable self- locking effect. A little as in "wrap any kind of cord around it with a constrictor knot, try a strong rubber band or some kind of spring-loaded clamp" It could also work with a cable gland- those rubber inserts squeezed by a threaded shell, used to seal cables entering electrical boxes.

I like to bury the ends of my whoopie sling back in to themselves creating a thick end to help prevent the from coming apart when not under tension. It would be less useful if you have a really long free end but could stop it from coming apart completely.

I wonder if wet dyneema will slip at a lower force?

Im a climber from 70's and know nothing about slack lining. But wondering if dyneema could be wrapped around a capstan to hold the full load and then use a simple knot or hitch on the low load side.

What about weaving the rope through a spliced eye at the end

Just use a 6 inch drum and do a few round turns around it and the clove hitch it around itself. The two half hitches never see any real force, it's all on the gentle round turns.

Clever

Seems like at the entry point it would be good to have something apply an exterior squeeze action. Or is there such a thing as a "hermaphrodite" bury?

Could yall do a test on taking a fall with a hasty harness or a webbing harness equivalent I'm curious if it would keep you alive or kill you on the bottom of the fall

Try it with a spliced loop on both ends of the clutch, one is anchored obviously like in this test, but put some kind of tension on the free one (that was just the raw cut end of the clutch in this one) in the opposite direction. Bet it holds way stronger. Might be hard to rig up in the wild...

@gregorgombac5302

Жыл бұрын

That's an interesting idea but definitely I would not rely on it into the wild, too many unknowns into tensioning from both sides I would rather see if a clove hitch locking the exiting strand reduces the strength or is enough to keep the thing from sliding and it gets anyways to full strength

@mattgraham4340

Жыл бұрын

But the final test didn't slip, it broke

@bkuker

Жыл бұрын

@@gregorgombac5302 As a progress capture device I'd prefer it to holding the cord by hand while my buddy splices the main line, like at the beginning of the video!

@bkuker

Жыл бұрын

@@mattgraham4340 The thing that scares me about it as done in the video is that, I think, while it is under load and holding if you grabbed the free / cut end of the clutch and started sliding it towards the anchor you'd be un-finger-trapping the clutch from the LOOSE end, until only a little of the clutch is left tight and it slips. (I use this stuff for whoopie slings and ridge lines for hammocks, so I have some feel for how it acts, but am far from an expert!)

@mattgraham4340

Жыл бұрын

@@bkuker You're probably correct. Although, any setup will be vulnerable to tampering. I would think multiple turns around something of large diameter then terminated in a hitch similar to how boats are moored would be ideal. In the video's "clutch" scenario I wonder if some cold shrink tape would stabilize it, assuming such tape doesn't exude any fluid

If you'd use 2 of these dynema constrictor ropes and pull on one after the other you wouldn't even need to put temporary knots in the line. Milk one back while pulling on the other.

What if you used one size bigger line for the short section with the eye splice? I can think of no reason that the two have to be the same size.

@nos9784

Жыл бұрын

I think a bigger braid would create less clamping force. Maybe a thinner one attached twice would work. I also think you could increase friction by winding it around itself- the way a traditional rope stays together at all, and kinda the way you'd splice one of those. I'd have to think about how to do that with braided dyneema, i suspect it would take many meters.

Bet if you added just a little tension to the other end of the finger trap it would hold. Probably wouldnt take much either.

I would be super curious what would happen if you buried 1 fid length, exited the core and went back in about 5 picks later. I think it would weaken the line more (say 80% instead of 90 with a normal splice) but it would let you maintain a more typical bury length to get it to lock

@jordigrau83

Жыл бұрын

Very interesting concept, it seems it could work

Maybe a different type rope as the clutch,,,,, and let it pass stray true in the middle

Interesting trick, could you put the fid back through both at right angles to work as a pin or "removable" stitch? For rigging not life and death.

@mrln247

Жыл бұрын

Also would be interested to see an arborist lowering device as they are mobile bollards, but I won't be going anywhere near any of the sketchy ziplines or high line's.

Not saying I’m an expert but when splicing braiding fishing line we will basically do the same thing and end it with a bunch of half hitches… so if you were worried about it slipping out I bet 4 or 5 half hitches would be a little added security. Either way keep these videos coming thank you

Pease keep this WARNING in mind. When you are using this clutch that the physics are NOT the same as with a normal splice. In a normal splice the tension of the outside rope goes from ~40-100%. It has everywhere at least 50% of the tension, independend of the length of the splice! With this clutch the tension of the outside rope goes from 0 - 100% ⚠️‼️ The problem is if you double the length of the splice (the tension of the outside rope = the grip strengh) integrated over the distance wont change much. Therefore the total grip strengh doesn’t change as much as with a normal splice. If you have questions i am willing to explain my thoughts in more detail over discord or so.

Yeah, I'd tie the end off just in case it does start shipping 😅

nerd highline stuff! yay!

Isn't this test flawed because the clutch effect comes from the outer layer being pulled tight over the inner?

Meow we are living in the future. Nice cross pollination!

Congrats! I am happy I click the clickbait!!! 🙂

Seeing the 2.1km high line at @1:00 I'm wondering if there's any danger to aircraft from that???

@TheRealWilliamWhite

Жыл бұрын

yes it does, they had to close that area to helicopter flight iirc.

It's not like you to test something *before* trusting your life to it!

My takeaway is there's an Andy Lewis video coming💚💚💚