Hi Danny, your videos are inspiring and educational. Do you have a video showing the equipment and exactly how you measure everything in your graphs. For an amateur like myself, it would be invaluable to learn as I'm wondering how I can replicate this. Thx.

Now that was an enjoyable honest appraisal with a good commercial as well as technical conclusion

Hi Danny, you can add another to this list: ELAC UB51 bookshelf. You evaluated these speakers for me earlier this year and we agreed they were not good candidates for upgrade due to crossover complexity & size vs cabinet access.

Thank you for another fascinating video

I suggest the presenter reads Harwood's BBC paper concerning speaker cabinet construction, which concluded that the best way of combatting cabinet wall radiation was to use a thin-wall approach, allowing damping measures to be made very effective (if I remember correctly). Useful reading for anyone, actually.

@adrianfisher9641

3 ай бұрын

Thin wall design is a great approach to speed of decay and using bracing at corners all helps, but that was related to cabinet size and surface area. The LS35a is an example of a small box which has great imaging and a smooth response but for a definate purpose, small outside broadcast trucks and control rooms. They sound really great but, there are limits to what they can do above 20 watts of clean power. These speakers had massive amounts of correction to overcome what was commercially available drivers from KEF at the time. So not tremendously accurate but fit for the intended purpose.

@dogsbodyish8403

3 ай бұрын

@@adrianfisher9641 Do note that the article refers specifically to the LS3/6, which is a LOT bigger than the LS3/5a - but the principles covered are anyway not exclusive to speakers of any other dimensions.

I will love his outcome on the speaker that I have just shipped to him.

The last speaker is a real eye opener. Geeze!!!

I have the M.L. lx 16, there is a setting on my Marantz SR 5011 that rolls the highs off a little, it made a huge difference, plus I pulled them out a few more inches, wow I have fallen in love with these little beauties all over again, the sound and clarity is incredible. I have owned quite a few speakers, but these have become my favorites.

@LarsonChristopher

2 жыл бұрын

Hello fellow Martin Logan owner. The LX16's are a little old now. The new M.L. Motion 35XTi are very very nice for the small bookshelf form factor. You might want to audition them at some time. Not saying make a change, but the updates have made a nice improvement in the sound, and you would likely notice the differences. SKOL

Hi Danny, I've been looking into the Lii Audio range of speakers. Decware and Cantuck Audio use them in the open baffle 'Betsy' speaker. I've been weighing up whether to get a pimped out version of the XLS Encore or some of the 15" full range drivers and a 15" woofer from Lii Audio. Shipping to Australia is always going to be costly.

It would be very interesting to see the Harbeth raw drivers response. Surely they're not that bad, that they need all those parts?

A lot of measuring but no listening! My Harbeth P3ESR 40th Anniversary sound absolutely incredible and the speakers are designed to be played with the grills on.

@dannyrichie9743

2 жыл бұрын

I've heard thousands of speakers using cheesy parts. If you think those sound incredible then you have really heard anything that is really incredible.

@dannyrichie9743

2 жыл бұрын

@@DougMen1 I get to hear an incredible system every time I turn mine on. I even passed college English, but I do speak Texan.

@DH-og5yr

Ай бұрын

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@dannyrichie9743you passed English, let’s test that theory. “If you think those sound incredible then you have really heard anything that is really incredible”

That's my NHT!! Sad it didn't qualify, but ready to do a diy build. Top binding post was always an annoyance. I like the sound in general, it extends down but I do use a Parts Express DIY Kit DSP subwoofer. Shopping for a DIY kit right now. Thank you GR for your time and advice!

@srpsrp3649

2 жыл бұрын

The GR research xls encores are pretty nice. I still love mine. My other loudspeakers are La Scalas. I switch them out all the time.

@stevieg2755

2 жыл бұрын

I have a xls encore kit sitting in a box doing nothing,the xovers are put together and sent Danny a pic and he said it looks good.i would sell for 175.00

Good to see honest opinions

Interesting to see the crossover on the Harbeth, thanks Danny!

I own pair of Harbeth’s (M30.2 40th Anniversaries), as well as Spatial Audio, Magnepan, and Focal. They are the sort of speaker that is easy to like, until you compare them with others. Alan Shaw has found the perfect model: build a beautiful-looking box speaker (no curves = cheaper), stuff it with cheap parts, and then engineer it to measure well. He must have the best margins of any domestic manufacturer (i.e. not Chinese-built). People are happy and he is happy, supporting British industry and making a living at it. I don’t fault the guy. If you can use cheap parts and get the sound right, why not?

@rlowes

2 жыл бұрын

Which Spatials do you have David?

@Unpreeeedictable

2 жыл бұрын

@@rlowes M3 Sapphires. Fantastic speakers.

@tomhamilton6377

2 жыл бұрын

@@Unpreeeedictable I am saving up for a pair of those as I rather doubt any will come up used

@rlowes

2 жыл бұрын

@@Unpreeeedictable very cool. I have a smaller room, so was considering the new M6 Sapphires. I assume they are far better than the Harbeth 30.2 Anniversary (which is another speaker I was considering as well)?

@Unpreeeedictable

2 жыл бұрын

@@rlowes totally different. The Harbeths do a couple of things very well, especially acoustic and vocal. Think singer-songwriter. The Spatials do EVERYTHING well. My Harbeths are for sale ☺️

Well done Danny.

Interesting stuff. I've always liked Totem monitors, and it would be interesting to see how they measure. They use a minimum number of higher quality parts so I always though that's what I was hearing, but I'm sure they don't measure flat, and not sure about spectral decay but it would be interesting to see. They also hand-match their parts in pairs so the left and right speakers match. I've got their Rainmakers, Sky Monitors, and Kin Monitors now around my house. I chose all of them just by comparing them to similarly priced speakers, and these sounded better. It would be cool to see if I could take the Sky's up a notch though. Hmm.

@paulbaker4941

10 ай бұрын

Who cares if you like them. A crappy measurement could change that for you right.

Greatly appreciate your speaker videos. Always interesting. Regarding the slight zooming issue, I think it's your autofocus on your camera. Set it to manual, not auto, and make sure the focus ring witness marks on the barrel of the lens is set approximately to the distance from the lens to your seated position. The lens is searching for focus I think.

@christopherdoolan925

2 жыл бұрын

Autofocus hunting for sure. Set to manual.

Love this vid.

Mentioned cheesy parts in the Harbeth crossover. Suddenly I had the urge to eat cheese. Yumm. Thanks! Also, I'll be looking into your speaker offerings. Thanks!

@Danny, what distance do place the microphone from the speaker for the frequency measurements?

And that is why I enjoy watching this channel... Because you can look past a pretty box. Some people get so fixated on the look of a speaker that they can't hear the sound that comes out of them.

Hi Danny. I traded an email with Alan Shaw of Harbeth. He gave a detailed reply on the Harbeth user group about caps and inductors etc. He mentioned that you had not mentioned in your video, that the Harbeth has poly caps. He told me those poly caps are good quality and will last a 100 years. Harbeth sells speakers faster than they can make them. They must be doing something right. Have you listened to them?

@dannyrichie9743

2 жыл бұрын

They may use some poly caps, but those caps, coils, and resistors are among the cheapest made. And yes, I've heard them.

Sorprendente! Tengo los Falcon sl3/5a Gold Badge, que están emparentados. Sería muy interesante explorarlos y compararlos con los Harberh!

truth from a good man

Hey Danny,I priced the round trip shipping costs but the Can. Govt. wants almost as much for the import duty (based on insured cost). I am considering one of your cheaper kits (for not much more money) to get an idea of the sound of your speakers. Cheers,Darrin

@LarsonChristopher

2 жыл бұрын

lol, Canadians and the BS you all deal with.

please do a tear down/components evaluation of the Elac Uni-Fi 2.0’s. i’m EXTREMELY interested in what your thoughts on their crossover would be. i would gladly send you my pair for evaluation!

My pair of NHT Super One XU speakers seem to have a similar issue as the SB3, as I've wound up placing them upside down or else they sound out of phase. I know they're entry-level speakers with cheap xovers. I paid $65 used for them, and they sound pretty good, so I can't complain.

Hi Danny, what do you think of Elac Uni-fi Reference Bookshelf? Are they worth upgrading?

Had high hopes for Nht, always wanted a pair 😕

Just for fun it would be nice to do an external quality filter on the Harbeth to see what they sound like?

Hi there, one advice is to set your lens on manual focus. As you don't move alot in this video. Please consider. Tq

Always a great, honest review. Some speakers have benefits to improve and others simply don’t. These 3 will be on my “Avoid” list.

@harryburnett7086

2 жыл бұрын

Try them before you buy them and avoid those speakers , human ears tell you many times better than sophisticated testing equipment

LOVE IT - LOVE IT!!! Thanks Danny, as always a great perspective shared. I own [not bragging - not apologizing] Harbeth 30.2, knowing its strengths and (possibly many) weaknesses. I could not go with the 3PSR (sp?) Familiarity with these Harbeth speakers, the family line-up, and the BBC monitor speaker legacy... *I firmly agree with all you said* The Harbeths are "pleasing to listen to" but, I cannot build (amps) and do reference listening through them... I do not trust them, as a way of saying it. I am using (first order) Silverline SR17S for my critical listening at the moment. I would love to hear and will one day experience GR products first hand (hopefully) in my home.

Was the NHT SB3 woofer chosen for a particular sound, even though it doesn't measure well (i.e. ringing at 800 Hz)?

@dannyrichie9743

2 жыл бұрын

You'll have to ask NHT.

I have a question, what about removing all these passive components and just running a digital crossover at the DAC level? So instead of using a stereo amplifier to individually amplify each speaker we would use two stereo amplifier with each channel amplifying a specific driver instead of the full speaker set. Thi would also allow for way quicker iterative improvements wgere it would be possible to quickly measure and apply a different filter and then measure again to get the FR to look as good as reasonably doable?

@blakebrockhaus347

2 жыл бұрын

Imo analog crossovers are probably gonna be better for most sellers. But for diy, DSP is definitely the way to go

Great insight into speaker manufacturers I get the impression that this guy has to tread a fine line re his impressions of speaker companies products and quality Seems at first glance most speaker manufacturers cut corners to save a buck or two at the expense of sound quality....

I'd love to see you review some KEF Blade or Blade II towers.

Hey Danny... I own the sb3's, and I am a musician... When fed a good source they sound like the instuments should. They have real defined soundstage. , and great imaging... Also in the setup manual they show the speakers tweeters facing up. I wouldn't think that would make a difference with your on axis measurements, but you would know better than me. Lastly, one of the main things multiple respected reviewers said about them was that they were very accurate and flat. The audio world is wacky!

@LarsonChristopher

2 жыл бұрын

Have you heard the KEF LS50 Meta? I'd like to know your perspective of them.

@jlo8775

2 жыл бұрын

@@LarsonChristopher in a word…fatiguing.

@LarsonChristopher

2 жыл бұрын

@@jlo8775 What amp / preamp and amp / receiver was used? I have a pair and use Yamaha AS701 and they sound awesome.

@davidluke6632

2 жыл бұрын

Your hearing is damaged.

@joachimroselio7334

2 жыл бұрын

Hey Neil, That is because crossover parts aren’t as important as Dannie the crossover salesman would like you to believe.

hi have you done any up grades on infinity kappa 7 or reference 60 ?

new subscriber here i feel young again one video back to car audio class 101,102 i thank you could you show us inside the martin logans i have a pair and wanted to mash that curve flatter its worse than i thought, are or have you done the jamo S801s or the 808 S for sissey line ?

I could not wait to see this video... knew it would be good... This grounded [Danny kind of] perspective flies in the face of truthfulness, Alan (the designer) claiming "perfection" with his Radial driver technology... dismissing so many other noteworthy designs. He speaks so sharply of the LS5/9 speaker / its' drivers, the woofer being poor technology... WELL... The Rogers LS5/9 (in spite of numerous, documented tonal anomalies) was one of my favorite speakers that I have ever owned and deeply regret selling (to please my wife) it was just fun to listen to the 15 years I owned them. Flawed can be fun, just .not good. as a reference tool. I value accuracy, closer to the mark Danny is defining for us.

Those NHT speakers are using that inverted driver pair that i remember from my Mission Cyrus speakers i had back in the late 80s/early 90s. They were recommended to be used at slightly below ear level, like many of the speaker support stands that were available at the time, so that the crossover "beam" pointed slightly upwards to ear level. If I remember rightly!

What do u think about m&k s100b

in the first speaker: would there be an option to put a helmholz resonator inside the box that counter-acts that 800Hz resonance? where is it coming from? is this a standing wave between top and bottom? probably too hard to add pieces of wood inside and glue it down to form a new chamber with a small hole that connects it.

Hi Danny, may I ask which specific Harbeth P3ESR model are these? Thx

@dannyrichie9743

2 жыл бұрын

It has been two or three weeks since recording this one and having that model in here. I don't recall any additional model numbers.

These speaker manufacturers have a lot to answer too … only a handful you have reviewed that you would recommend ,keep up the hard work Danny ✌️💪🏽. Ps is there much you can do with electrostatics “quad” ?

@evshrug

2 жыл бұрын

Well, keep in mind it’s a time honored tradition to point out your competitor’s failings 😅

@Bd-ox4mi

2 жыл бұрын

@@evshrug Danny does not compete with anyone … cheap nasty parts are still cheap nasty parts end of

at 5:00, is the 'ringing' at 800hz, the big blister in the spectral decay, is it caused by the woofer driver itself, the damping inside the speaker, lack of a port, or what ?or just a driver flapping out of control around that frequency? or is it just an issue to be fixed with crossover design?

Great video, I really like your honest, results based feedback. Unfortunately for me, now I am questioning my little Harbeth P3ESR's. I suppose that I need to talk to about which kit and components you would recommend as replacement. I would be willing to build a set of your speakers and make some side by side comparisons with the Harbeth's to come to my own conclusion on what I like better.

@MsCorbacho

10 ай бұрын

Why are questioning your p3esr now .????? Do they still sound good ? If so,…why the questioning !? I love my p3esr ,…yes, they are not perfect ( which speaker is) ? But , I love the sound they give , colorations and all ! Heck…world is coloured !

@MsCorbacho

10 ай бұрын

I have always defended that some speakers you can modify ,…others you just ruin them ! I have had a pair of mission 751 like 30 years ago, fabulous speakers , Pull them apart , modify them with good poly caps , better resistances , better intern cable . Result: a speaker that was better in everything detail , hifi , dryer and faster bass, but……something was gone , the fabulous 3D soundstage these speakers kan do ……..was gone,…..they turned forward and cold , So,….I do believe that cheap parts or not , sometimes you do have engineers that know what they do , and they realize that the voicing of a particular component in the crossover is the one that must be used ! Is like driving an old jaguar , it gives a special kind of pleasure , now modify that same car with top notch motor , suspensions , and in the end you will a car with better specks …….but ….does it give you more pleasure driving ??? Relative to harbeth p3esr ……common !!!! Who whants to improve a speaker that works good as it is , I do have a pair , I personally would not modifying them even if it was for free, I like their voicing , ….. thus modifying = another voicing . Perfection is not always the path to completion . If I like a certain sort of coloration ….why modifying it ! What’s the point ? And…..is not truth to the signal !? Who cares. Going to listen to some music, Bye .

Great stuff. On the Harbeths, though: It's a misconception to say they were designed with a resonance to give extra bloom. That's not it at all. It's a common belief, though, and it really gives British engineering short shrift. This kind of cabinet design harks back to the BBC, which decided, in their in-house monitors, to tackle cabinet resonances by damping thin walls with lossy materials--bitumen, not No Res, but same principle. They did this rather than make the cabinets either heroically thick, or from inert materials, which were unavailable at the time, outside of the aerospace industry. Instead, their engineers chose to permit resonances, so long as they were low in frequency and fairly low Q, so they'd be nearly inaudible. It was, at the time, the most cost-effective way to get low coloration enclosures. In other words, this wasn't designing IN coloration, it was just crafty engineering to design OUT coloration.These speakers are second-cousins to the BBC LS3/5As and, as such, they share the design philosophy.

@dmark2639

2 жыл бұрын

Translation: there are better, more advanced cabinet materials available today, but British companies haven't kept up with the tech advances. Probably because they "like" or have gotten used to the traditional colored resonant sound from the old-school thin wall cabinets with bitumen.

Thats why DIY is the way to go.

I would be interested to see/hear what an upgraded external crossover for the Harbeth would measure/sound like. You could remove the old junky crossover, install some stuffing or no-res inside. Also, you could install tube connectors to the external crossover and then run high quality speaker wire through the cabinet back directly to the drivers. Or alternatively, you could remove the original crappy crossover and use an active digital crossover instead.

That third speaker you showed as the final one in your review was staggering! I have never seen so many components used in a crossover. Says a lot about the speaker.

Hi enjoy your reviews thank you learning lots. hey was wondering if these Canadian made speakers i have are any good not sure if you have tested them before? they are Axiom Millennia 10inch aluminum driver mid and tweeter. thank you Brad

@dannyrichie9743

2 жыл бұрын

I have tested and measured three different Axiom models, but not that one.

@bradvirtue4650

2 жыл бұрын

@@dannyrichie9743 Thank you! vary much for responding Danny

@bradvirtue4650

2 жыл бұрын

i find the tweeters a little harsh so i adjusted the EQ and helps a lot

Danny,have you looked at a Reference 3a Dulcet? With only a capacitor on the tweeter and a full range driver,would it be worth your time ?

@dannyrichie9743

2 жыл бұрын

Send one in and I'll take a look at it.

@darrinswallow1839

2 жыл бұрын

Uh-oh

GR-R thank-you for bringing truth and facts for the consumer.

Lots of posters are missing the entire point regarding parts quality . How long is that crossover going to last before the cheaper parts start to degrade? It might sound great….for now.

Cicable LS3/5A crossover exists just for the reason of a lack of space being available to place a crossover too large for the cabinet So I would suggest you tell your client of such a solution for the Harbeth P3esr (se/xd)

Review this Russound ADP-1.2 Speaker-level to Line-level Adapter

Hi Danny, P3ESR 40th owner here and loved the thoughtful criticism. Thanks for the measurements. I’ve been in grills on / grills off limbo. Your measurements help decide to put them back on. You mentioned your desktop DIY speakers could sound better. I’d love a DIY project since I recently retired and have a full shop. My setup is nearfield desktop up against a wall. What is the best of your speakers I could try out?

@dannyrichie9743

2 жыл бұрын

The desktop mini is ideal for a desktop up against the wall (sealed box). If you can get them a little off the wall the little X Bravo model is in a different league.

@richardatkinson4452

2 жыл бұрын

After careful consideration of your alternatives I'm going to pass on them. Thanks Danny

There are two speakers that are widely-used as near fields in pro audio, the Yamaha NS10 and the BBC LS 3/5A. The NS10's can sound rough, but they give engineers good insight into how their mixes will translate to lower-end consumer audio gear, such as car stereos, boom boxes, cheap hi-fi's, Bluetooth speakers and ear buds. The LS 3/5A was made for BBC's studios with the emphasis on mixing/mastering for speaking voice reproduction over the radio and TV. They are specific tools of the audio engineering trade, but neither speaker would be my choice for home hi-fi music reproduction. Oddly, the Harbeth version of the LS 3/5A (as reviewed) is aimed at wealthy audiophiles. Go figure?

@dannyrichie9743

2 жыл бұрын

I designed an upgrade for the Yamaha NS10 that is being used in about 10 different studios. I am surprised that they were ever used in mixing or mastering. They are not that accurate and don't sound very good either.

@mikotondria

2 жыл бұрын

@@dannyrichie9743 Amen to that. I cut my teeth writing and producing electronic music using NS10m's; they always sounded lazy to me. No matter what I programmed to have pizzazz and color, they would drearily and reluctantly dribble out like a terrible waiter. Of all the monitoring set ups available to me at the time, I will have to say they were the most accurate - a friend with some PA kit in their living room, or some luxurious and well-presenting headphones were much more satisfying to playback what I thought I was creating. But at any level the NS10s just sounded like they were being played very quietly and seemed positively gleeful when the room we were in just became overloaded, as did I. An upgrade sounds interesting - would it involved replacing the cabinet and all internal components and drivers ? Thanks for all these videos, it's great to have learned another approach to speaker engineering, and it's one that has been added to my own plans.

@bartvanransbeeck1341

Жыл бұрын

The ns10 was selected because of it average crappy mediocre sound to hear hpw it sounds on most audio...

@peterbrady1536

10 ай бұрын

The Harbeth speakers reviewed are not BBC designed LS35A's.

The Heberth, maybe no crossover in the cabinet at all, but an external Xover in it's own box?

@mikotondria

2 жыл бұрын

miniDSP it.

Some speakers do have external crossovers.

that’s the camera focus hunting

Danny, concerning the Harbeth. If there's no room for the higher quality parts inside the speaker cabinet why not build an outboard crossover?

@dannyrichie9743

Жыл бұрын

You'd could.

Will the „cheesy parts“ how you call them limit the life expectancy of the Harbeth? Or could the speaker work better with other parts while not having a flatter frequency response after your redo?

@dannyrichie9743

2 жыл бұрын

Electrolytic caps tend to have a more limited life span, but everything else will last about as long as the really high quality parts. They could use high quality parts and have an accurate response, but those higher quality parts are much larger and are not likely going to fit in the box. It will also make their speakers a lot more expensive.

@astra004

2 жыл бұрын

@@dannyrichie9743 Thanks for the quick answer.

That harbeth crossover was epic 😁

Could you upgrade components on a ProAc 1SC ???

@dannyrichie9743

10 ай бұрын

Components can be upgraded on just about anything.

GR I appreciate the effort but I have to respectfully disagree on the Martin Logan LX16. On the 30 degree off-axis response, much can be attributed to Mayer-Norton impedance aggregations, perhaps from bipolar junction inductance, somewhat akin to stator hysteresis and non-complementary diode configuration. The crossover inhabitance ratios, when viewed within impedance truculence vectors, are stationary, yet sinusoidal. The big dip at ~ 3500 is more measured than perceived by the listener, due to cubic ionizaton when viewed withing a Thévenin linear framework (measurement) rather than a inductor co-valence (listener). The vertical off-axis is excellent as is phase subjugation and transient variance deflection points. A structural recapitulation, especially when woofer isotope superpositions are considered (i.e. Horowitz, Ravel) can be quite apparent during on-axis phase subduction when aligned with polarity confluence. As always, I appreciate your reviews and keep up the good work!

@MuenchenBob

2 жыл бұрын

Sir Maxwell, thanks for that entertaining analysis. I'll be sure to avoid bipolar junction inductance in the future. When my speakers' junction inductance becomes depressed, the high frequencies fade. I try to keep them as manic as possible!

@Rickzolla

2 жыл бұрын

I couldn't have said it better myself.

@badger305

2 жыл бұрын

That's easy for you to say.

The reason the nht is woofer up is actually a psychoactive reason. Psychoacoustically, people tend to locate high frequencies at a point higher than the actual location the sound is coming from. So putting the tweeter down puts the heights psychoacoustically at the level of the woofer. I remember reading an AES paper 50 years ago where they conducted the tests and wrote the paper.

Shocking harbeth! I have to say harbeth sounds most easy and pleasing to my ears.

@LonesomeTwin

5 ай бұрын

So, do you listen to music or scope traces? We buy what we like, what makes us feel the music more.

So many astonishing comments here. Each owner sent in their speaker for consultation and advice, not a pat on the back.

Would love to get an analysis of some other Harbeths like maybe the 30.1.

@dannyrichie9743

2 жыл бұрын

Send one in.

@jurgernst9426

2 жыл бұрын

The model 30 has the parts of the same basic quality as the ls3/5. but it is still a fantastic loudspeakers out there IMHO. I did upgrade the binding posts as well as the internal wiring, which did push it to a higher level. I am thinking of an external crossover, but then i have to install two more binding posts. And fiddling with the crossover brings more detail but often not more coherence or rightness. Alan Shaw spends a lot of time finetuning the crossover by ear. This is very rare today. And that is one of the reasons why harbeths sound so good.

@bakeone4406

2 жыл бұрын

@@jurgernst9426 thanks for commenting. You certainly know more about them than I do. The 30.1s here are replacing Tetra 222s as computer desk top speakers. They're kind of big for this application, but they just sounded better than the well regarded Tetras. I've never heard any GR Research speakers, but after seeing this, it seems like the GR Research XLS Encore might be more size appropriate and sonically competitive w/ the Harbeths.

Wow!,, that’s a god damn crossover. Wonder if the sound gets messy on the way .? ;) Feel like my next diy will gonna be a one with 2 5,25” and a tweeter in the middle. Will I go for a 8 ohm tweeter and 2 4 ohms woofers in serie or what’s best . And how do the crossover see the woofers?

@dannyrichie9743

2 жыл бұрын

We have some MTM kits, and we used dual 16 ohm woofers in parallel.

@pliedtka

2 жыл бұрын

You could use two 5" in 4ohm version in series

Interesting on the Harbeths - perhaps it’s designed so each iteration can have a slightly improved crossover and thus seem better than the last version? I have always used LS3/5as, and bought some external crossovers built for them by a company called Cicable, and designed by someone who probably knows most about BBC type loudspeakers and crossover design than anyone else. These gave a massive improvement in THD reduction and increased resolution and transparency. Now I have Stirling Broadcast’s V3 version of the LS3/5a which also uses a crossover using higher quality components (the pcb is about the same size as the Harbeth and also mounted on the back of the cabinet, but uses huge air cored inductors and also has less components on it), and it also has that great transparency and resolution, and with modern SEAS drivers that match very well it images fantastically and has better power handling. I use them with their bass extenders plus some M&K subwoofer crossed over around 60Hz and they are the best I’ve heard.

I always wondered what Danny would do if someone sent in a pair of Harbeth. “Surely Danny wouldn’t tamper with Alan Shaw’s work” is what I always thought to myself. Turns out I was right, but for a completely different reason. Disappointing, but must be one of the most highly regarded monitors out there for a reason… how did it sound Danny?

@dannyrichie9743

2 жыл бұрын

I was just sent one of them. With that level of parts quality a lot of the life would be sucked out of the music even if the drivers were the best drivers in the world.

Dare I ask this but have you ever gotten any speakers from bose? Just wondering.

@dannyrichie9743

7 ай бұрын

No.

I forgot about the NHTs!!!!!! Are these still being manufactured?

Now what if these Harbeth speakers sound good, to a lot of people they seem to do, even though they contain cheesy bits!? They sell upgraded versions of these speakers, that probably sounds better. The upgrade is of course better components, the drivers are probably the same. Harbeth have made a well aclaimed business out of making speakers people like, hours spent testing and listening during development must mean something. Two listeners rarely agree on everything they listen to, regardless of inside components. I bet that some people listening to Dannys speakers will say they don´t like the sound, again regardless of the interior bits. But i totally agree that it´s a shame and wrong saving money inside when we are talking about expensive products!

@maxine2798

2 жыл бұрын

The right part is the right part whatever the price. There can be compromises based on cost so decisions can be complex

@pliedtka

2 жыл бұрын

There's nothing wrong in using steel cored inductors if applied properly. If everyone would use expensive 10ga inductors and fancy poly caps everywhere, most of loudspeaker cost would be in crossover not drivers. I guess there's is some priority when it comes to designing and it makes sense to use expensive parts only where it counts. Zobel networks or RLC traps don't need expensive parts. Only parts that are in series with transducer benefit from better quality parts. Tons of make up and facial surgery won't make every woman into supermodel, or racing slicks won't turn average sedan into race car. There are same rules which apply in proper engineering. On top of that, Danny doesn't show the crossover schematic and where these cheezee parts are utilized. Electrolitic caps - maybe someone should take a look into service manual of their electronic equipment: amps, DACs all use them in the signal path.

There were more parts in the Harbeth crossover than the worlds first computer.

@rogerb5615

2 жыл бұрын

... Or in the Apollo capsule.

@pliedtka

2 жыл бұрын

Not really, just a lot caps in parallel. And some RLC traps.

Hi, I'm a new subscriber. I have a chance to get a Wharfedale Diamond 9.CS for a great price. Just wondering if you're familiar with this 3 way center channel, if so what's your feeling about it? I have no problem replacing the low cost crossover components, done it before.

lol I kind of feel like if the Harbeths sound as good as they do with cheap parts maybe parts quality isn’t as important as some people think it is…

@dannyrichie9743

7 ай бұрын

Really? I thought they sounded horrible and now I know why. Parts matter.

Only Danny can take a pair of speakers that a buzillion people love (and not just these three) and “prove” how lousy they are - because his graphs tell him so. I would love to see how many speakers Danny could listen to without seeing them, and never having heard them previously, and tell us which ones had “poor” caps.

@Gug9000

Жыл бұрын

A buzillion people love 901s and eat Big Macs. What the masses like means nothing.

@rikardekvall3433

Жыл бұрын

I do think Danny would fix that, if he plays his own list of music he knows, then he would be able to say what’s good and bad. The other stuff are called experience. Many years of experience of speakers and speaker parts.

@Shalmaneser1

Жыл бұрын

I want to sponsor a cage match between Rick Beato, GR-Research (they can nominate their champion), and Steve Guttenberg

@tomwechsler22

5 ай бұрын

..and he’s right probably 99% of the time. I have done some crossover upgrades myself on some highly renowned (B&W matrix models, several) loved by a gazillion. Along the lines of Danny’s, and the difference was not subtle. Similar on budget models like KEF’s Q150 (used some of Dannies parts on that one). Again, not subtle. Sounded really good before. Sounded great after. My wife served as the blind tester, and not being an audiophile said things like: “that one sounds like it has a little of a haze. This other one is much clearer. I hear more details.” Her words, not mine. Anyway, I think Danny’s points maybe overstated, but no doubt, take a speaker that sounds great and is loved by many, give it some of his crossover treatments, and I am convinced that it will sound even greater. So much so that you wonder why the designers did not do it that way int he first place.

my question if the speaker measures flat 200-20k 2-3db and has respectable directivity does danny make a kit (given space). link me below

@dannyrichie9743

2 жыл бұрын

There can also be room for a considerable amount of improvement by upping the parts quality. So sometimes we don't redesign anything and just offer a parts upgrade (if needed).

@teachonlywhatiseasy

2 жыл бұрын

@@dannyrichie9743 Thank you for the reply. is there a reason why you didn't do a crossover and parts upgrade for the widely sold RB42 vs sony sscs5. my guess is on the space constraints.

I'm honestly shocked by the Harbeth. If anyone would've had better bits and pieces I figured they'd do so. What a cheat.

@willjohnson2722

Жыл бұрын

I googled and they did a 40th anniversary edition and- upgraded internals. Hificorner have a picture of the different insides and blog post about it. Cost for the "Anniversary edition" extra £845. I also agree, with such a good reputation I didn't expect Harbeth to have gone that way. But I am enjoying the reality of someone opening these things up and making it clear what's good and what's not.

@akr01364

Жыл бұрын

@@willjohnson2722 it's easy to dismiss Danny for being such a small player in the audio market as many do. But, when he pulls back the curtain and shows stuff like this you suddenly realize why the little pizza shop across town makes a better product than the Domino's down the street: accountability means more at such a level.

@willjohnson2722

Жыл бұрын

​@@akr01364 ​ thank you for your comment. I agree 100% and with the sentiment. I am not a tinkerer. But I do love things to be the best they can be. And so I love channels like Danny's where things are opened up- to show what's inside, speakers, group tests etc. What's it really like? Most of the videos I've seen seem to show products that are engineered to sound the best they can at the lowest possible cost= the maximum profit. And that's understandable when people are running a business, because dealers take a large cut, VAT on top etc etc. High quality hifi is already a niche industry, production volumes are already low- I don't expect people are making a huge amount of money even when they are charging higher prices for lower quality products. But it's still a bit sad to see lower quality components in a product with a high price tag. Catch 22 in Hifi though, in my experience in the UK anyway- say you get a speaker made at the local boutique. It costs a fortune because it has high quality materials and components and that's why it sounds amazing. If you're like me and a lot of audio enthusiasts, let's say- in a year or two, you change system, downgrade, upgrade, whatever. Who's going to buy your speaker? Good luck selling it without a massive loss. And so over the years I've come to understand why people do stick to more mainstream products sometimes- not always because of the sound quality, but often because of the ease of buying, selling and support. And people don't want to buy modded products for the same reason they don't want to buy modded cars. However- a known product, upgraded by a known and respected engineer, like Danny- that's a super interesting proposition. And as always with the internet that's cool- people can find your videos years later and learn- like I did here.

@akr01364

Жыл бұрын

@@willjohnson2722 this reminds me of an interesting back and forth that occurred in one of his comments sections: post modification resale value. He noted that a speaker featuring a well done modification he'd put together typically sells for a higher pricevthan one that wasn't. That discussion made sense to me as one of his more famous kits is for the Sony CS bookshelf speaker. The standard model sells for roughly $120 USD. One I came across on Ebay featuring the GR Research kit was, sans reserve, $550 at the time and likely went for more. Imagine what one of Sonos Faber's models would go for? And if there were to be a problem, he'd be able to help remedy it. A pretty decent middle ground when you think about it.

I think all these speakers sound really good,sometimes measurments mean nothing.....

@chinmeysway

6 ай бұрын

yeah... they can mean or not mean as much as one wants or needs or doesn’t. i like erin’s method of listening first and then measurements after confirm his listening experience.

You are the coolest guy on the planet. Seriously, I really mean that. And you just drip with confidence and expertise. It would be worth driving from where I live in Maryland to Texas just to shake your hand. Thanks so much for your videos.

lol the duct-tape Harbeth x-over

Interesting on the Harbeth . As the driver are supposed to be be high quality control drivers . Maybe with the right crossover they might not need that many parts !

Super interesting to see the Harbeth characterization. It seems clear that if you want a fully assembled beautiful cabinet in a two way monitor the Tyler Acoustics monitor is the way to go since it already has a GR Research well designed crossover and parts quality.

Rather than swapping out parts for the last speaker would you redesign the crossover completely? Or would that be a waste of time?

@basiema.4185

2 жыл бұрын

I was going to ask the same question.

@dannyrichie9743

2 жыл бұрын

It probably has that many parts on there for a reason. So it will be hard to produce an accurate response with a simple filter.

@basiema.4185

2 жыл бұрын

@@dannyrichie9743 Thanks, Danny!

@christophern.9234

2 жыл бұрын

I still we he had measured the drivers individually. Would have been interesting and shut up some of the know it all's here.

It sounds like the Harbeth was going after a “sound” pardon the pun. That they achieved at all cost expense of finding the cheapest parts worked out beautifully for them. That’s probably a speaker put into a category like people who like the harsh piercing sound of a class D amp. Compared to the nice smooth sound have a good high quality tube amp. The Harbeth speaker crossover kit would probably be approaching $600 in parts to identically duplicate every component on their crossover and way as much is the speaker hanging off of the back. Not to mention having to add mechanical speaker supports gluing them in to the inside of the cabinet for extra support and adding all the no-Rez. To the inside of the cabinet would take away that mechanical residence of the speaker singing that the speaker manufacture was relying on to give them part of their sound signature. Totally agree on this little English speaker if you’re not happy with the sound don’t try to fix it give it to somebody who enjoys it and start over with a new different speaker

Thanks for providing a candid review.

Harbeth, speakers with too many parts tend to suck the life of the speakers, also it becomes too inefficient typical of Harbeth speakers, you need to use a high powered amp to drive it to a reasonable level, also to get the dynamic range.

I think it's a lens breathing issue. FYI.

The filter is behind the tweeter. No space for the binding posts

Ahhhh.....I wished he has looked into the harbeth 6 months earlier.

@julesbarry2081

2 жыл бұрын

If you have a pair and like them, why worry?

@miklee4834

2 жыл бұрын

@@julesbarry2081 you are half right. At least I get to know what I am paying for.

is it a stupid idea to build a crossoverbox with good parts outside the harbeth?

Actually if that’s a P3esr, Stereophile didn’t measure any cabinet vibrations that they thought would cause colourations with these particular Harbeths. Also interesting to note that the new XD version of these apparently has better crossover parts and better wiring and binding posts (and a fair bit more expensive I believe). Would be very interesting to compare the internals. I do think that saying these should be “avoided” is a bit much. Tons and tons of people love these speakers - they must be doing something right. If you want to buy them specifically to upgrade the internal parts, sure yes, avoid. But to recommend avoiding overall, that’s taking things a bit too far I think. Are they overpriced? Like many other production speakers, just looking at parts, sure. But that’s an overall value judgement for the purchaser. Good luck DIYing a cabinet that looks like this.

@jdlech

2 жыл бұрын

There are "tons and tons of people" who smoke crack. But I don't believe "they must be doing something right", and I would not recommend it either. An appeal to popularity is not a good basis for forming one's opinion.

@rlowes

2 жыл бұрын

@@jdlech I’m talking about hardcore audiophiles and reviewers who consider these to be amazing nearfield monitors for pleasure listening and some who even own a set themselves. Do you think people who listen to tons of gear that decide to purchase these for their own systems are all deluded or lying for some reason? To dismiss a speaker purely by looking at the parts is foolish if you actually care about how these things sound IMO. But everyone is entitled to their own opinions and approach to things. If you value parts, yep these are not going to satisfy. And maybe they’re not detail and resolution monsters because of this, not sure, I’ve never heard them. But it doesn’t mean they’re not really enjoyable to listen to. The problem with this kind of “you must avoid because of this objective quality even if other highly experienced people say they sound great” is getting into Audio Science Review territory where only the objective matters and the subjective doesn’t. Also, the “if everyone jumped off a bridge, would you” comeback is a pretty pointless argument.

@NakeanWickliff

2 жыл бұрын

@@rlowes There is certainly a balance to be struck. Never underestimate the power of social proof, visual bias, and the ability of our brains to adjust to stimuli over time. Not to say that these sound bad (I've never heard them) but man social proof and visual bias, alone, are strong Jedi mind f's! Over time I've noticed the ASR affinity for Harmon. Bias strikes again.

@rlowes

2 жыл бұрын

@@NakeanWickliff absolutely agree. To be clear, I’m not claiming these absolutely must sound amazing, or that I would even like them. I’m am saying however that there’s a pretty high likelihood they would sound great to SOME people who heard them. And to simply say they should never be considered or purchased due to parts quality is BS. If that’s the case, 95% of the production speakers out there should be avoided.

@NakeanWickliff

2 жыл бұрын

@@rlowes Yup, we're in alignment there for sure. I actually have a pair of Klipsch Heresy speakers that I have gone full circle on. First speakers I owned when starting to actually critically listen. Then I measured and saw the lumpy response, and also compared them to open baffle speakers. After that, I couldn't unhear the Heresy boxy sound and stopped listening to them. Now, I've come back around to loving them in the living room even knowing they're not linear and they have vocal bloom from the box resonance. It's a charming sound to me now and I really like them for what they are. In the end, It's all subjective. Kinda like cruising in an old classic car. You love them because of the beauty of their quirks not despite them.

I wish there were a parallel universe in which you would actually be able to send Danny speakers to mod. Love these videos, but am definitely not a DIY guy and I work 2 jobs. No time.