Thanks for watching everyone! This is a fairly contentious topic and will also change a lot depending on what you consider "worst" to mean, so I'm curious to hear your lists for this one. Whatcha got? -Twitter: twitter.com/MrMockRock -Twitch: www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch -Patreon: www.patreon.com/mockrock -Teespring: teespring.com/stores/mockrock

@xor8171

3 жыл бұрын

In my opinion the worst mechanic is all of smash bros has to be directional aidodge

@johannedesir9536

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks man

@Mr_Mimestamp

3 жыл бұрын

Not sure if the shotos count here since it works for multiple characters, but the button inputs for specials is pretty inconsistent for me as a Terry main. I find myself Power Dunking when I try to Burning Knuckle while running a lot. To be honest, it’s led to some accidental wins though.

@samuelwasner8915

3 жыл бұрын

Easily directional air dodge I can’t count how many times I’ve died because of it

@2fang180

3 жыл бұрын

Outdated Gmick characters/ character function like pit air movements mechanics that can’t work like Lucario always great video

Bro you forgot about Koopa Backdash Wave Slide Hover Walk Moon Landing

@MrMockRock

3 жыл бұрын

...Crap. Taking this down, thanks for the reminder!

@yeetusdefeetus

3 жыл бұрын

smh my head

@ciaranpatrick6859

3 жыл бұрын

Curve he’s talking about bad mechanics not op ones

@obamawasreal0264

3 жыл бұрын

That’s based af

@ONLY_RR7

3 жыл бұрын

Norby Members of the channel get early videos

"I really like Super Smash Brothers" Blocked

@hima131

3 жыл бұрын

Adam Thompson lol

@IHateMyLifeBro

3 жыл бұрын

Please tell me you're joking

@hima131

3 жыл бұрын

Memes and Stuff me?

@wetube6513

3 жыл бұрын

How much dirt did your brain eat?

@rhyscostello1862

3 жыл бұрын

That has a other meaning now

WAIT. ONLY 1%? I never owned Brawl, but when I played it at a friend’s house when I was 5 or something, I tripped 3 times in a row. All of the luck I’ll ever have went into a one-in-a-million chance of me getting screwed over.

@detectiveg7885

3 жыл бұрын

I don’t think it’s 1% I feel like it’s like 1000% precent

@NimaLema

3 жыл бұрын

Hahahaha that’s actually fking hilarious when u put it like that

@ayar2

3 жыл бұрын

me on the other hand, rarely if ever ocurred more than one time per session, thats why i never made an issue of it, and always though people was just exaggerating (which probably were, as Brawl was everything but a competitive game)

@bootlicker4763

3 жыл бұрын

I can relate I rolled 5 1/3’s in a row meaning I didn’t get to move for 5 turns idk the chances but it was pretty fucking slim also considering that’s the second time it happened to me

@Endershock1678

3 жыл бұрын

That's funny because last time I played Brawl a year ago, I didn't trip once for all 4 hours I played it.

10:04 for anyone not aware, Falcon’s dair has both a meteor and a spike, the spike being the nipples area

@Ramen-ms9xn

3 жыл бұрын

Adding to it... it's called Nipple Spike for a reason

@PorreegonZ

3 жыл бұрын

Hello, fellow asumsaus fan

@zed95

3 жыл бұрын

The Nipple Spike

@baxterbruce9827

3 жыл бұрын

I saw a video that was talking about this in Melee, it started with saying he had "Magic nipples"

@cesarTorres-lj1df

3 жыл бұрын

But almost nobody uses it because is as hard to perform than a knee and the knee looks way more cool

I guess brawl really did take a *”misstep”*

@firestorm3k882

3 жыл бұрын

Ayyyyyyye! 👈👈

@iswiftyfox8997

3 жыл бұрын

Ba dum tiss

@TheSteeltec

3 жыл бұрын

Track laugh 1 plays

@runningoncylinders3829

3 жыл бұрын

Subspace sure was trippy. Lol, I love SSE. Not falling on my face!

@redrebellion6028

3 жыл бұрын

Brawl was such a Trip down memory lane

Surprised that mashing wasn't included here. Ever since the first game (I think), when you got buried, you would have to "mash out", or press as many buttons as you can, as fast as you can, to stop being buried. This became more frustrating in later games as more and more characters could do it - from Zero suit's down b to villager's down smash to ROB's down throw. This mechanic seemed incredibly obnoxious to newer players without doing anything for the competitive scene - if you can press buttons faster, guess what - you're vulnerable for less time. But the worst part is that it can cause accidental inputs. I'm sure we've all been buried by Donkey Kong's side b at some point, and we successfully mash out of it, only to mash a bit too long and accidentally up-b ing, and dying at 40%. Why can't getting buried just trap you for a certain amount of time, or at least require you to do something other than destroy your controller to escape it?

@MrMockRock

3 жыл бұрын

Mashing made the shortlist, I'm not a fan of it either and if this was a top 10 video it'd likely appear.

@emblemblade9245

3 жыл бұрын

Mashing is just horrible to deal with in Ultimate lol. I agree that misinputs are the worst part of it. ...Just like mashing out of stun in Monster Hunter and rolling right into another attack lol

@orangez8710

3 жыл бұрын

When I heard “mashing” I thought of ness instead of burying

@dbrothershow

3 жыл бұрын

You can mash with the control stick to stop yourself from missinputing

@nachinis

3 жыл бұрын

@@emblemblade9245 stun in world might be the worst thing. I could honestly do an essay on how stupid it is

Still can't figure why did I Usmash at 3:25

@mrcrumpet3915

3 жыл бұрын

Because at that time the wombo combo joke was played in your head. *D A T U P S M A S H*

@atari_hmb

3 жыл бұрын

Still can't figure out why rage was so disproportionate in Smash 4.

This is the first video that I have had early access to. I also really enjoyed the video, thank you.

@2tmb904

3 жыл бұрын

Same

@fizzrpg9961

3 жыл бұрын

Koitern Patreon early access

@kike6359

3 жыл бұрын

nerd

@cheezuzgaming9538

2 жыл бұрын

@@kike6359 it was put on his discord when he had all his channels public

@vicool217

2 жыл бұрын

@@kike6359 get a life instead of getting mad at a quite wholesome comment

I knew about the Stamina and Elemental weaknesses, but I had no idea you couldn't switch Pokemon in the air. Wow

@poshcatterson1790

3 жыл бұрын

And also look at that animation, that’s like two seconds

@runningoncylinders3829

3 жыл бұрын

The animation was so long you could use excellent timing to dodge Tabuu’s butterfly shock waves instead of sidestepping them iirc.

@slitchey3166

3 жыл бұрын

Not to mention the pokemon themselves weren't that great either. Ivysaur is a contender for the worst character in the game, charizard isnt really great either since his glide was the worst in the game (along with some other things) squirtel basically carried the character and even than pt was still considered crap

@runningoncylinders3829

3 жыл бұрын

@@slitchey3166 Charizard's Rock Smash move was good in Boss Battles. That's why I did the Tabuu thing.

@slitchey3166

3 жыл бұрын

@@runningoncylinders3829 I know that. I meant that in a competitive sense he wasn't that great

I’m surprised that you didn’t mention Lucario when talking about Smash 4 rage. He had auro and rage so Lucario basically two rages. So he was scary and annoying to fight when he had both.

@darkdoctor1915

3 жыл бұрын

I never see Lucario at all online, also Lucario was annoying in smash 4

@Eltrotraw

3 жыл бұрын

@@sirdabsalot1yt83 I think that was his point

@Hayds126

3 жыл бұрын

While smash 4 max aura and rage lucario was too far, ultimate lucario is kinda sad

@darkdoctor1915

3 жыл бұрын

@@Hayds126, that's true

@Hayds126

3 жыл бұрын

@1998SIMOMEGA Buffed yes but I believe only to the cap. At base still just as weak so same problem. 0% lucario is a bottom 5 character imo.

Regarding randomness in smash (or any fighting game, really): Randomness is absolutely fine if you have to activate the randomness. Game and Watch's Hammer, Hero's down B, Faust from Guilty Gear's projectiles, they're all fine because you still have to physically activate the randomness on your own. You take a decision to gamble. Randomness that isn't fine is something that just happens, aka a bob-omb randomly dropping directly onto you, or tripping, or the untechable animation. EDIT: It seems like some people don't get entirely what I mean, so allow me to explain further. In Guilty Gear Xrd, there is a mechanic called Dangertime. It can randomly happen when 2 attacks clash. For the next 10 seconds, any attack landed will slow down time and gravity while dramatically boosting damage, allowing for extremely hard hitting combos. It is a terrible mechanic like tripping because yes, while you both are both triggering attacks, it's not the outcome that you want. You both just wanted an attack, instead you get 10 seconds full of stress. And it looks like it's gone in Strive. Meanwhile, randomness that is fine with is the whole point. As the user, you WANT to trigger the randomness. You WANT to fish with spells as hero, even if you might get something terrible. You WANT to fish for projectiles as Faust in Guilty Gear, even if you might accidentally heal the opponent. you WANT to fish for a 9 with Game and Watch, even if you might get a 1. The bad ones give you something you just didn't account for in the first place. When you trip, you didn't want to gamble if you can run now or not. You just wanted a run.

@GeneralShyGuy7

3 жыл бұрын

I wouldn't say Hero's menu is fine. Honestly, I think randomness is fine when the options are limited (ie. trip or no trip), reactionable and telegraphed (ie. Peach's turnip pull. Even if she pulls a bomb, you'll always be made aware), or it's just sorta a garbage joke move (ie. Judge to an extent). Hero's menu has none of this. He's got a lot of options that enemies must respond differently to depending on the pull, it's hard to react to because it's so far away from the action and by the time your eyes are over there, a move was probably already selected, and it's actually pretty good. Hero's menu would be dumb af, if the character's kit and numbers (mainly frame data and general speed) were better.

@KieraQ0323

3 жыл бұрын

@@GeneralShyGuy7 I would say Hero's menu is fine. I would not say his critical attacks are fine.

@baxterbruce9827

3 жыл бұрын

@@KieraQ0323 You guys realize that tripping was always willingly activated, tripping only ever happens if you choose to dash or turn while doing it, and I've seen people dash dancing and complain that try tripped because "It's supposed to be a 1% chance! Why does it happen to me so often?!" Because you turn ten times more than I do, if you turn 4 times a second and trip, you have yourself to blame for willingly increasing your chances

@KieraQ0323

3 жыл бұрын

@@baxterbruce9827 One of the reasons why I mained jumpy charctera like Meta Knight and Ike.

@evanseifert8858

3 жыл бұрын

It seems that your argument is self-defeating. The G&W player may have a choice to use Judge or not, but the other player has no real choice in the matter. To the other player, G&W's Judge is "something that just happens". They can get 9'd without ever making a decision to gamble.

11:32 “...biggest missteps in Smash.” Well certainly it was a misstep in Brawl

I don't even have a funny comment to put here, this is just a good video.

@xor8171

3 жыл бұрын

Wow nice you commented early

@uhhhCheese

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheRealBatabii Likes

@BestDurian

3 жыл бұрын

Hilarious

@jobot0114

3 жыл бұрын

@@uhhhCheese Good guess, but I'm not out here for internet karma points. Moreso that I just like to do it.

@uhhhCheese

3 жыл бұрын

@@jobot0114 That's fair

I never usually see people bring up the problems with Ultimate's initial dash. Unless you jump, you're basically locked into the initial dash until it's completely done. This causes many issues, and the most notable one I can think of is that if you accidentally buffer an action during the dash while trying to run off a ledge or platform, or try to use an action to early before dashing off, you end up doing the action on the tip of the ledge/platform without dropping off of it. This is a big problem If you're trying to drop off the ledge or a platform with an aerial and is very annoying to work around. I think this is the reason players felt that the movement in Ultimate was rather clunky before and during the game's launch.

@jmann531

3 жыл бұрын

I didn't even know this.

@dankmario329

3 жыл бұрын

socko rocko it mainly affects his turnaround since his turnaround for some reason moves him backwards

@Ramen-ms9xn

3 жыл бұрын

The worst offenders are those with a good initial dash I played Chrom for a bit and his initial dash was something I couldn't act in that window at all

@FalcoVille

3 жыл бұрын

As a Falco main..... yeah.

@Ramen-ms9xn

3 жыл бұрын

@@FalcoVille I get you, dash uptilt can ruin games sometimes

Fun fact: Captain Falcon did have a spike in Melee, because the launch angle of his 'nipple hitbox' was outside the small angle. The rest of the move was a meteor smash

The thing I don't like about rage is that once you take your opponent's stock, it makes keeping your stock easier because of the increased knockback. You can effectively play the rest of your stock with get-off-me options and they'll be more effective and possibly snowball the game. I'd change rage so it only kicks in if both players are on the same stock and/or the player with stock disadvantage for a comeback factor.

@EduardoFlores-bt4fo

3 жыл бұрын

It's not bad in Smash Ultimate, many combos still work. Smash 4 on the other hand, poor Sheik, but then again, fuck Smash 4 Sheik.

@papersonic9941

3 жыл бұрын

I like that. In a weird way, the comeback mechanic also helps the player who is winning.

@autocorrect5456

3 жыл бұрын

​@@papersonic9941 It can work the other way around. Let's say the person with less percent gets killed early thanks to some rage shenanigans and now they're a stock down early just because rage exists. Now they have to take back that stock without any rage of their own.

@rtg_onefourtwoeightfiveseven

3 жыл бұрын

That's actually a reason why I'm much more of a fan of rage than most people. It's not just a comeback mechanic, and in a great many cases it gives an advantage to the more skilled player who is more likely to take the first stock.

@Snowballsage

3 жыл бұрын

@@rtg_onefourtwoeightfiveseven but then it makes it significantly harder to make a comeback just because you lost one stock

the meteor cancelling is the worst to me. ganon stomp should not be easier to recover from than falco dair

i’m not even thirty seconds into the video and i already know that tripping is in included

@ballisticboo7808

3 жыл бұрын

Well, yeah, because it's in the thumbnail.

@kamikazekx1712

3 жыл бұрын

Ballistic Boo oh...i actually didn’t see that

Mashing will forever be the worst smash mechanic that is present in Ultimate, and buffered air dodging

Man put meteor cancel on honorable mentions but not the 1 frame dashback

mashing should be an honorable mention as well, specially for Ultimate, and SPECIALLY for the joycons wich just become unusable

@superhappygamer1162

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah. NEVER PLAY WITH SINGLE JOYCON.

Yeah really though, why *don't* they fix the C-stick?

@adrianheredia6494

3 жыл бұрын

I didn't understand what MockRock said about the C-stick. What's wrong about it?

@Moss_Dude

3 жыл бұрын

@@adrianheredia6494 They overcomplicated the way it works and as a result it does dumb things a lot.

@adrianheredia6494

3 жыл бұрын

@@Moss_Dude it always works fine for me. I have in tilt.

@Moss_Dude

3 жыл бұрын

@@adrianheredia6494 So do I, and so did he.

@arnox4554

3 жыл бұрын

Why don't they fix a lot of things in Ultimate? I don't know. I guess 'cause then the competitive peasants might get into it, as opposed to the glorious casual master race, right Sakurai?

Phew. And here I was thinking I was crazy for inputting a jump and c-stick forward air at the same time and then getting a neutral air for some reason. Also, I hate how you can’t buffer full hop aerials. Like, that’s what pressing 2 jump buttons at the same time is for. Really wish it was toggleable.

@beetlethebard7624

3 жыл бұрын

It's caused attack cancelling. Its used by good players. Time your arials like a normal human.

The only thing that has bothered me about Smash Bros aside from the random tripping is the "buffering" present in Ultimate, which isn't really buffering anymore but just "you used a move 3 seconds ago but it wasn't possible then so I'm gonna make you use it now for no reason." Also buffered air dodges, which kill certain characters if you accidentally do it. Now buffering can be useful, and when it's done in it's normal form it is a cool and strategic mechanic, but pressing a button and having your character act 3 seconds after getting hit when you didn't mean to buffer at all is very annoying and my ONLY complaint about Ultimate.

THANK YOU for not being one of those people who are like "tRiPpInG mAdE bRaWl UnPlAyAbLe"

Honestly hitstun cancelling seems far more impactful and detrimental than tripping. Whilst tripping might be annoying, it would rarely change a set. Hit-stun cancelling drastically changed the entire game

I remember when tripping was announced as a new feature on that Brawl site. So many people were dumbfounded.

I'm surprised you didn't even mention L cancelling. I think it is a terrible mechanic that may have had good intentions but just increases the skill floor of melee by a lot while doing nearly nothing to it's skill ceiling. Arbitrarily requiring another input on one of the most common inputs to make it strictly better isn't good design.

I'm shocked you didn't even mention ledge hogging. In games prior to smash 4, you could prevent another character from grabbing the ledge by just grabbing it yourself. It consistently made "edge guarding" (if you can even call edge hogging that) super uninteractive and anti-climactic. I've been playing smash bros since 64, and the removal of ledge hogging (to be replaced by ledge trumping) goes down in my book as the best change ever made to the base mechanics of the game.

@Brawltendo

2 жыл бұрын

Ledge hogging works in the context of Melee and helps keep the pace of the game up. It also is interactive as the player on the ledge still has to consider how the opponent is gonna try to recover (and time their ledgehog properly so they won't get punished), and the person offstage has to decide how they wanna mix up their recovery. It also makes being offstage much more punishing, as it should be, rather than a position that you hardly ever have to worry about being in if you're decent. Ledge trumping _could've_ been a better mechanic if they didn't decide to make most of Smash 4/Ult's rosters have busted recoveries, and also if they didn't implement a ledge regrab limit for no reason in Ult despite already not refreshing ledge intangibility after regrabs. As it is now, characters live way too long even with the ridiculous amount of knockback that most moves do in Ult, and part of this is because it's so easy to get back to the ledge, then back on stage, and then reset neutral. I also think that ledge snapping makes ledge trumping worse than it should be, because now the only way to punish a recovering opponent is to try to go low and attempt to stage spike them (won't work if your opponent is consistently good at teching) or by trying to 2 frame which is possibly an even dumber mechanic. A few recoveries don't snap to the ledge unless you sweetspot it (like how it works in Melee), and it not only feels way better to punish those since it's actually feasible to, but it also feels really good to sweetspot the ledge and prevent getting punished. Recovering with a character like Cloud feels so rewarding, because instead of just ledgesnapping on autopilot, you have to actually time and mix up how you recover or else you're dead at 30%.

@gbx4858

2 жыл бұрын

@@Brawltendo Oh please, there’s no thinking required for ledge hogging. It’s not like trying to read their ledge getup, or predict their tech roll. Yeah you have to kind of time your ledge grab right, but the reward is far greater than the risk. Not to mention, some characters have no risk to them at all, like Falcon and Ganondorf. Since they can’t grab people on the ledge in melee, you can just sit their and wait for their up b, and they either die or land on stage, which is a free punish. Ledge hogging just isn’t fair to the recovering player, especially with how broken ledge intangibility is in melee. Whether you love or hate ledge trumps and magnet hands, they’re way better than ledge hogging.

@ExaltedUriel

Жыл бұрын

Ledge hogging feels like one of those mechanics that came about through logical thinking, like "Yeah, of course someone shouldn't be able to grab a ledge someone is already hanging from, duh", but then they realized that it wasn't very fun and changed it for the better. I much prefer seeing fun offstage plays and creative gimps than "I grabbed the ledge so you're automatically dead now".

Tripping just hurt everyone, even the casuals.

@carinet2795

3 жыл бұрын

@@CCLitterer same

@Endershock1678

3 жыл бұрын

@@CCLitterer Honestly, I thought it was funny whenever it happened. Casual players mashing the B button really don't care if they trip once or twice.

@adamice2526

2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely, you can actually trip in the boss fights so if you're trying to avoid an attack by running away you better hope you don't grow 2 left feet

Mock Rock video: Yes please Mock Rock video with Etrian Odyssey music: YES PLEASE

10:05 That second downair was actually a spike, called the "nipple spike" and happens when you get downaired by falcons torso.

@MrMockRock

3 жыл бұрын

I'm aware, I thought it suited the "doesn't totally remove downwards kills" line pretty well!

Keep em coming, MockRock! Love these videos and video essays, and happy to have early access!

Ok, hold up: so you're telling me that the reason i get empty c-stick attacks is because the stick doesnt return to neutral first? Thats fucking stupid. I just thought it was a problem with my controller.

@leargamma4912

2 жыл бұрын

Then you shouldn't have used the C stick too much. Nerd

Surprised not seeing shield poke

@charlieharrington9555

3 жыл бұрын

It’s fine imo. It discourages Shield spamming.

I think the Smash Ultimate buffering system and shield poking deserve spots on the list

I love how the intro is just a bunch of Smash characters and then Sylvanos.

Funnily enough, the "move consistently tripping up until a % window where it no longer does" idea is how Pichu's ftilt works. Pichu ftilt trip doesn't have the frame advantage for any true followups, however it does allow for sort of "pseudo tech chases."

I don’t know what’s funnier, folks complaining about the way he talks or people getting upset he said he could make the right stick better.

Strong respect for the Etrian Odyssey music. ...I mean, it's a great video too, but even better choice of music.

Everyone has lost at least a match in Brawl because of fucking tripping

In my opinion gliding could be an hm because it wasnt the most well thought mechanic you had characters like pit and metaknight being able to recover from anywhere in the same game as ganondorfs recovery

@dragodadragon

3 жыл бұрын

At the very least, that mechanic was fun to play around with. I had a fun time with it as a kid back in the day.

@Edgeperor

3 жыл бұрын

That’s not a universal mechanic

@ballisticboo7808

3 жыл бұрын

I want a nerfed version of it to come back, it was cool!

It's good to know that the C-stick in Smash Ultimate has flawed tilt attacks, cause I was thinking that it was my controller that was the problem.

Peach pulling a Bobomb on Snake is Poetic Justice.

No one smash game is 100% perfect but it dosen't matter since they are all fun for different reasons.

@adrifitz8793

3 жыл бұрын

Melee veterans would like to have a talk with you

@emblemblade9245

3 жыл бұрын

Melee vets who can’t find a single fun thing about the other games are playing the wroooong series

@adrifitz8793

3 жыл бұрын

@@emblemblade9245 yee

@audiovisual51

3 жыл бұрын

I agree Smash 64 is UNIQUE Smash Melee is COMPLEX Smash Brawl has GREAT SP Smash 4 Smash Ult has CONTENT

@arnox4554

3 жыл бұрын

It's hard to enjoy the later entries in the series though from Brawl up because they have fundamental issues at their core that ruin the experience. Thankfully, Project M/Project+ has come to save us.

0:36 all i can hear is the slowed down oof sound effect.

I'd rework tripping to always apply to a very specific hitbox of the attack and nowhere else, usually the tip: e.g. DK's fingers on down tilt, the farthest lightning coming off Pichu's foot on forward tilt, hell, maybe even Ganondorf's tippy toes on down air. It would give super precise spacing with these moves a reward high, but not too high.

Worth noting with regards to the C-stick stuff: Rivals of Aether has the C-stick programmed as "direction plus whatever action you have it mapped to" and *doesn't* have any of the issues it's had throughout the Smash series. My guess is that there's some extra bit of code in there to make sure that the left stick is always prioritized for movement, but the right stick is prioritized for the action you perform with it, while in Smash 4, the right stick *always* got prioritized, and in Ultimate, the left stick *always* gets prioritized. The game also has the option for a dedicated strong attack button and lacks any internal code to prevent simultaneous inputs in opposite directions, so those might also be factors.

In practice I don't think that Brawl's tripping was AS bad as it could've been considering that for the most parts the punish game was nonexistent. Ironically a bad mechanic made an even worse mechanic slightly less bad.

6:17 My man MockRock straight flexing on Nintendo 😂 I love his savagery so much

I heard that Enter the Gungeon music during the tripping section. Man, I love that game.

Great video as always dude and +50 points for the Etrian Odyssey background music

Your content is so well made, it’s definitely one of the best smash related things on this whole site! I don’t understand how your channel has only around 70k subscribers by the time of writing this. Your videos have taught me so much about Smash and I’d just like to formally thank you for all of it! Amazing video as always, MockRock!

Can you do the worst variations of characters or worst changes for characters?

"Tripping is GAY" -brawl taunt wolf

@grunkleg.3110

3 жыл бұрын

"Gay tripping. Is. GAY." - Brawl Taunts Wolf

@ANGRY_ALA

3 жыл бұрын

@@grunkleg.3110 thanks for the right "gay tripping" joke. (I was wrong with "tripping is gay"... but still thanks)

@arnox4554

3 жыл бұрын

"What's a matter? Gay?" - Wolf

@ANGRY_ALA

3 жыл бұрын

Can i make a big gay dance joke?

@grunkleg.3110

3 жыл бұрын

@@ANGRY_ALA No problem. You can make a Big Gay Dance joke while I go ahead and quote Olimar: "Oh yeah? Well my friends fight for me!"

In Sm4sh if you cheesed someone out of a stock when a move shouldn't have killed otherwise, your character won't be the only one with rage, am I right?

Rage is a good mechanic its just that smash4 did it really bad

Removing the ability to run through your opponent is one of the worst. Running on shield mixed with pivot grabs together were very important for aggressive grappler playstyles. edit: also increasing traction in ultimate was a mistake. Lower traction adds another layer of matchup knowledge that could be used to bait shield options/pressure shield in the neutral.

"This is pretty widely agreed to be one of, if not the biggest missteps in the history of Smash." Literally.

The untechable spin is known as Reeling. It's been in every Smash game, but only in Sm4sh was it untechable. Funnily enough, Cloud, who couldn't tech if he was hit at a certain point during his up B, COULD tech if he got the Reeling animation, leading me to think that both of these things were bugs. Also the reason you might get a neutral air when you do a cstick aerial is due to attack cancelling. You did the cstick before the jump, so therefore you did a tilt and cancelled it with a jump, and whenever you do this with the cstick, it buffers an aerial.

The centralization of Kirby gameplay around d-tilt trips in Ultimate has led Juggleboy, a top Kirby content producer, to dub him "one of the most RNG-based characters in the game."

I still say to this day that tripping is the worst.

@Endershock1678

3 жыл бұрын

I'd argue Smash 4 Rage is worse. Tripping affected at most like 10% of games, and even then, if you tripped away from the enemy, you weren't likely to die. It made even less of an impact on casuals. Sure, it sucked if you were against... Ice Climbers, but much less bad if you were against anyone else. Rage on the other hand, effects every game you're in without exceptions in multiple ways, can let multiple characters kill you at 0 for no real reason back in Smash 4, and disappeared when it was most important to the player who needed it.

@demolitiongod64

2 жыл бұрын

@@Endershock1678 I'd say hit stun canceling from brawl is up there. It allowed you to survive to stupid percentages and you could get punished despite *landing attacks.*

10:03 right there, the jiglypuff didn’t fail his meteor canceling, is just that falcon for his upper body is a spike

I remember when the untechable animation mechanic went undiscovered in Smash 4 until like 2016

Before watching the video, shield poking. I don't have a problem with it too much, but there needs to be a sign that you got shield poked to begin with. A splash of color or a distinct sound. Something that makes me think my shield got poked instead of thinking my shield didn't work.

@Freefork

3 жыл бұрын

Grab smashes. When you turn around while running then immediately hit grab... YOU GET A SMASH ATTACK(sometimes a tilt). Both in Smash 4 and Ultimate. No one mentions this but it is the most mental thing ever. Also holding the grab button makes you shield, so trying to buffer a grab in games before brawl made a shield come out... And also items, Hyrule, gimping, etc. There is a lot of problems that I have with Smash. Better go play MK!

@3three3three3three

3 жыл бұрын

@@Freefork this has been a problem since melee and it frustrated me even as a kid. the Z button is basically R+A. there's no dedicated grab button. why is this still a thing

@EvilApple567

3 жыл бұрын

I don't understand the complaint here. When would your shield ever "not work", or give you a reason to think it didn't given you know about shield poking?

@Choochinc

3 жыл бұрын

I don't see why that's necessary if you know what shield poking is. If you were holding shield and you got hit, you got shield poked. If you dropped shield and got hit, then you didn't. The only time shields don't work is if a move is unblockable, which outside of grabs and command grabs, only Mac's KO punch comes to mind.

@Freefork

3 жыл бұрын

@@Choochinc Wario's chomp, Kirby inhale, Defense Inhale, King K Tool(damn autocorrect) Neutral B(lunderbuss)... Need I go on? Dude, just have a special effect appear when someone gets shield poked. Literally nothing is wrong with this suggestion. You are shutting him down just because he didn't grind as long as you did. Come on. EDIT: I said Ganon's up tilt when that is a shield break...Hold on, why can't shield pokes and breaks have similar effects?

Could you do a full video around the c stick

I like the tripping concept with Kirby and small characters .. heavy characters get super amour, light and short characters get low profile and tripping .

@marsupialmole3926

3 жыл бұрын

For Kirby? Sure, for other light, short characters? No. Most of them are lightning quick, they don't need even more strengths in their favour when speed is already such a big deal in platform fighters

@Hyushi_sama

3 жыл бұрын

Marsupial Mole lmao yah I agree . Characters like pichu and pika hi don’t need or deserve it. But for future characters, it’d only make sense to have a trip feature on extremely short characters that are attacking the foot .

An incredibly interesting watch, especially looking back on mechanics of the past (still remember when people first started noticing the untechable screw, it’s insane that it took that long to discover). But I’m also commenting for the quality music choice. Daemon x Machina? Etrian Odyssey? Shantae? Quality taste my man.

L canceling is my least favorite mechanic. Tripping is definitely second though.

Have not watched the video yet, but I'm willing to bet the RNG trip from Brawl will make the top of the list. *After watching the video:* VINDICATIOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!!!!!!!!!

I've watched you for years MockRock and you continue to become even more descriptive and amazing. Even though these opinions about the game are still your opinions, I'd be hard-pressed to find someone who could argue with these points, they are so well thought-out and precise. Everyone knew it was going to be tripping, and like you said, that's something people have raged about for an actual dozen years now. Even though everyone thought it was an exhausted topic, your points about it were unique and intriguing from a game-design perspective. Love your videos man, keep up the great stuff

@MrMockRock

3 жыл бұрын

Hey thanks, appreciate the kind words!

Tripping might be associated with terrible mechanics, but you gotta admit that the sound effect is incredibly satisfying.

All I’m saying is there’s a reason why tripping is at the top of everyone’s list when it comes to bad mechanic in smash

I am pretty content with this list. Me personally, I'd move Smash 4 Rage to HM and shift the other stuff up since the mechanic isn't nearly as obnoxious to me, but I can see why people dislike it. Also thank God that the tripping section isn't just RT from Brawl. That definitely makes it take #1 for me

I'm surprised crouch cancelling wasn't mentioned. "Hold down to make your opponent unsafe on hit!"

@MrMockRock

3 жыл бұрын

I don't love crouch cancelling, but you can kind of think of it like a second form of blocking in addition to your shield. If I were to make a top 10/15 video, it might appear, but I can't justify putting it above the choices here.

I would have definitely mentioned mashing. It basically puts you in a position where you die to a smash attack, or misinput and then die to a smash attack lol

I agree with most things on the list aside from meteor cancelling being an honorable mention. In my honest opinion meteor cancelling makes edge guarding more interesting. Instead of just being just one hit at 50 and they die, it makes edge guarding more of a resource depletion task by having to force your opponent into a jump and then outplaying them after it. My biggest problem with meteor cancelling is just how quickly you can meteor cancel, 8 frames just makes most meteors negative on hit, if you look at a game like Project M they nailed the meteor cancelling mechanics, in PM you have to wait 16 frames to meteor cancel a move, that means you can make your opponent be significantly affected by a meteor without them losing their stock. If you look at a game like smash ultimate they had to rebalance every single downward sending to have a almost useless sour spot and a hard to hit sweet spot, this reduces the possible uses of downward sending moves for comboing .

@ballisticboo7808

3 жыл бұрын

I think the new system is better, spikes should feel like "Yes! I timed and spaced correctly to get a cool early kill!" rather than "Woohoo, I hit my opponent downward easily. Time to hit him again."

@arthur1050

3 жыл бұрын

the problem with how spikes work in newer smash games is that they are pretty much useless moves for onstage

@ballisticboo7808

3 жыл бұрын

@@arthur1050 what? You can usually follow up on them for easy combos, and ultimate even made it so you can't tech grounded spikes.

@arthur1050

3 жыл бұрын

@@ballisticboo7808 not with most spikes because a lot of them have to be hit with a very specific sweet spot, you only really see falcon and dk comboing with their spikes

@Kapedanii

3 жыл бұрын

Ballistic Boo Having meteor cancelling allows for a more variety of down hit moves to be designed. I think moves that are super easy to hit should be meteor cancellable and moves that are hard to hit to not be. For example, you wouldn’t be able to have Wario’s Ground Pound in PM without Meteor Canceling because that would be super broken

To clarify one thing, you can like Melee and the exploits or not, most competitive environments are based on exploiting mechanics. When you claim those exploits make you better at a game then someone who doesn't though it becomes a poisoned claim. "I'm better at playing the game by abusing broken things." This entire cycle of a knowledge based "skill" had hurt people, bred toxicity and hate for both sides. It ruined so much for so many people, and hurt people. If a mechanic does that... then there is something wrong with it. It doesn't help some sources claim it was left in because the devs didn't think it would hurt the game and was worth fixing. Like it or hate it, it really hurt people. Never have a purely knowledge based mechanic that is unintended be a defining trait... otherwise it turns people against each other.

@audiovisual51

3 жыл бұрын

I mean, without Melee's "exploits", it would be dead. The reason why Melee is so popular 20 years after its release is because of its complex engine and movement.

first time i watched your videos i was blown away by how good your intro was, and that still stands to this day my god i love it

I gotta say, you really stand a huge cut above the rest when it comes to your work. So many Smash Bros videos tend to be overstretched, repetitive, or purely speculative, but you always address an interesting topic with a great script, delivery, and solid editing, and a pretty consistent release schedule!

@MrMockRock

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

Great video as usual Mock!

I think phantom hits in melee is the worst mechanic in the game. Meteor hits don’t come close in my opinion

@Brawltendo

2 жыл бұрын

Well they're still in every game after Melee lol. They just got rid of the half damage bonus and added a spark particle effect when they happen (which, in Ult, is A LOT).

6-10 would be metoeor cancelling, melee ledge mechanics, 64 shield damage, ultimate buffer system and ultimate spot dodge canceling in some order

@Snowballsage

3 жыл бұрын

64 shield stun*, the problem wasn’t that moves did too much shield damage but that they locked you in shield forever

Oh. I had no idea there was a different from a meteor smash and a spike... I thought a spike was just a meteor smash but slightly diagonal instead of straight down.

Lmaoooo the gimmick twitter account crack hahahaha

I feel like Brawl not catering to the competitive scene wasn’t a terrible thing. They obviously didn’t make the game less combo heavy to spite the Melee pros, but rather to create a more accessible and unique experience. I think not every game in this series or ANY series has to be compatible with very competitive fan made play in mind and I love Brawl for that.

@emblemblade9245

3 жыл бұрын

Honestly while I love the way competitive Ultimate looks and feels, I have a lot of much more casual friends who have a very hard time enjoying themselves online because of all the competitive tryhards (and some legitimately great) players there, that they can barely do anything against. Now some of that can be chalked up to matchmaking issues, but honestly...it does make me totally understand why the devs don’t want Smash to be made with competitive in mind first. Some people just don’t like playing that way, but the momentum that a player who utilizes the mechanics has against one who doesn’t really makes it a struggle to even **play** the game against those people. Even in non-1v1s.

@Buglin_Burger7878

3 жыл бұрын

Playing Brawl competitively was one of my favorite ones, simply because the game didn't become "Get a hit and now you get 50% free damage and a kill" so you had to actually, imo, earn your kills via landing moves that people had a chance against.

@GeneralShyGuy7

3 жыл бұрын

@@emblemblade9245 Do you think that Smash is a fighting game? If so, shouldn't it be natural that the worse player loses and gets outclassed by someone in a fighting game? We take this factor away, and I think it becomes way harder to even justify this being a fighting game.

@wombatpandaa9774

3 жыл бұрын

I mean...yes, but also no. A lot of the decisions made in Brawl's development seem to have been made specifically to discourage competitive play, which seems excessive to me. Casual game? Sure. Anti-competitive game? That's just missing the mark. I still enjoy Brawl to a point, but these issues really sour it for me.

@toxicastigator

3 жыл бұрын

Dragoonsoul7878 I like playing Brawl in the loosest of competitive terms. With knowledge of the characters/mechanics but with items and non legal (or I assume non legal) stages. I love the quirkiness that Brawl encapsulates with character specifics and what have you, so that’s why it’s my favorite smash game (along with a million other reasons).

Fantastic work as always Mock. That Kirby tripping damage threshold idea sounds like an amazing workaround to make tripping feel fair. Would love to see the Smash team do that. Personally, I'm really torn on Rage as a concept. On the one hand, it sounds hype af to get stronger when you take more damage. But on the other hand, my competitive side says it shouldn't exist at all and any comebacks should be due to the raw skill of the player. It's still possible, but it's a big moment because of the intelligence and reaction needed to pull it off. Maybe ideas like Rage would be best for single-player games, similar to the Doom reboots' Glory Kills, rewarding you with extra health when you're closer to death. To implement something like that in a competitive setting would be discouraging if you're already getting crushed, but it feels great on your own.

I think the meteor/true spike distinction can have a positive influence on the game for balancing purposes, but it isn't implemented well in Melee. If there was a different visual effect for spikes and you had to wait a bit longer before meteor cancelling so that the person landing the meteor wouldn't get punished for it it could actually enrich offstage game. Implemented in Melee specifically, I would make it so that the easier to land downward moves (like Falco dair) were meteors and more difficult ones (like Mario fair and Samus dair) were spikes.

6:18 software engineer myself and I gotta say I'm not sure how treating the c-stick as it's own input makes sense, ie if they have the c-stick mapped to the same callback as tilt up + A then it should by definition function the same... clearly it doesn't function properly though so perhaps there were oversights made when mapping the c-stick correctly? Could also be a hardware reading issue when it comes to the problems in Ultimate, which would make sense with the examples you provided. Either way I do agree it's odd these issues exist, but will say in Nintendo's defense I've definitely had instances where I tried to change something that looked trivial but didn't realize how embedded in the code base it was lol.

@nocturn333

3 жыл бұрын

The thing is there are certain scenarios where only part of the macro gets used. For example, the directional component of tilt up + A gets ignored and only the A press gets read. The ideal solution would be cstick up -> character.perform_uptilt(), which seems trivial to implement. Of course any programmer would know a solution that seems trivial is likely the exact opposite. My guess is there's jank involved with charging smash attacks which results in the strange implementation.

@dh3913

3 жыл бұрын

nocturn333 yeah it’s impossible to know how trivial it actually is without understanding their code base lol, I def agree it seems like it should be simple though so there has to be something in the way... or it’s just not a priority for them🙃.

I feel that the rage making all moves stronger makes sense for what it is. When your beaten and backed into a corner you won't be fighting very skillfully, but the hits you'll connect will really matter.

5:36 I wonder if the reason it works like that is because when playing on Joycons/Pro Controller, with default controls (meaning jump is on the face buttons) it's hard to input jump and move the C-Stick at the same time. I usually just use the short hop macro for rising aerials and never had much of a problem.

Why can’t I buffer a full hop aerial ahh

@Endershock1678

3 жыл бұрын

Why isn't there an option to turn off buffered sh aerials in the controller menu? Seriously.

@WordsOnALine

3 жыл бұрын

Endershock1678 they literally made a way for us to short hop but force us to short hop when buffering jump and an attack

@shanek2724

3 жыл бұрын

Frame Perfect Irar Fullhop Back airs are actually so annoying to do in ultimate. (Link's combos require these quite a bit) Even just frame perfect full hop up airs are annoying as well tbh.

@diegovaldez927

3 жыл бұрын

I have never had problems to do a full hop aerial even though I use the buffer system to do short hop aerials

@SlakjeJasper

3 жыл бұрын

You can, it's called instant double jump

Smash 4 rage was beyond dumb, I remember cheesing my friends with Ding Dong all the damn time LMFAO

Yay a new video, this channel lowkey deserves much more attention

I did a mental double take when I heard Etrian Odyssey music. Love the video!

I was waiting for this!

Kinda disagree with meteor canceling being an HM, but I still understand and respect your opinion. I do agree that the meteor vs spike angle differences make too big of a difference for such a small angle change, but I disagree that it going offstage less rewarding and inherently is bad for that. For one, it still allows interactive offstage play where 1 player is at a significant disadvantage, unlike in 4 and Ult. Things like Amsa timing his Yoshi fair spike with the fox's up b so they can't meteor cancel it and you still being in disadvantage since you can't really control the height at which you do it allow counterplay on both ends. That already makes it more interactive and interesting compared to something like 2 framing. I also think it's good to have against strong gimps that spike. A lot of spike moves in Ult can still easily gimp at low percents, and early BnB combos can easily lead to these finishers where you lose a stock at the bottom before you can even jump at like 50%. As much as I want offstage in Ult to be more dangerous, I don't like every spike (besides like duck hunt's lol) to be an instant stock offstage or from a simple early % BnB near ledge. It's like in low level melee when a Falco dairs you at ledge because you can't sweet spot well and you just lose a stock at 30% with nothing you can do. Meteor canceling would help against wssy unsatisfying gimps.

@JacobPDeIiNoNi

2 жыл бұрын

Ok, but by that logic why just cancel meteors? If the logic of "it can gimp at early percents" is why meteors should be cancelable, then by the same logic any move that sends at a low horizontal angle should also be cancelable because those can also easily gimp you. The only real difference being that meteors gimp weak vertical recoveries, while low horizontal angles gimp weak horizontal recoveries. Also very few characters have BnB combos that lead into a spike, the only guaranteed ones I can think of are Mario comboing into Fair and ZSS nair-flip kick. All other ones require a read or your opponent messing up. (or are so niche you can't call them bread and butter, like Link's bomb combos into down air.)

10:00 fun fact: that captain falcon clip showcases how inconsistent captain falcon's down air was in melee, if you hit near the feet it's a meteor smash, but if you hit from a small area on the chest it is a spike.

Man i love the Enter the Gungeon music in the background of the #1 spot