God is complex. Therefore, God is a watch.

@rickypeggy-suejones7899

5 жыл бұрын

jon hillman I don’t know, therefore God.

@mtausk

5 жыл бұрын

Illogical answer called False equivalence fallacy.

@theomegaconcern9564

5 жыл бұрын

That made me laugh out loud. Thank you

@viperviperviper2

5 жыл бұрын

We, humans, cannot even comprehend the definition of complex and yet we are making such silly and pathetic logical arguments.

@mtausk

5 жыл бұрын

@@viperviperviper2 Rather illogical. Not everything complex is a watch :) Watches can be complex but not everything complex is watch. Jon Hillman just wanted to sound smart :)

Worth noting the watchmaker puts his mark on his work he doesn't make it anonymously and then hide all evidence of his very existence .

@rationalityrules

7 жыл бұрын

Haha great point :P

@mvsawyer

7 жыл бұрын

The watchmaker also finds a reasonable market in which to sell his watches. In contrast, God found a tribe of slaves who were afraid where the Sun went at night to reveal himself to.

@heristyono4755

7 жыл бұрын

where's the fun on that?

@chriscopeland1455

6 жыл бұрын

his mark is us we are made in his likeness

@DonaldKronos

6 жыл бұрын

chris copeland - So are you saying we're all watch-makers or that we're all omnipotent gods? Saying that we who can be seen are just like someone who can't be seen doesn't make it true. You could just as well say the Flying Spaghetti Monster made us in his image and that proves he had a humanoid form and that he formed us from pasta.

Do you ever walk out in the woods and say," there's no way that these trees planted themselves and grew over time to be what they are now. There must have been a creator who shaped each leaf and branch"? It would be ridiculous. We know that organisms currently grow and evolve on their own, so why assume that a creator was necessary in the past?

@joshuaphilip7601

4 жыл бұрын

There are many reasons to think a conscious creator is responsible for the creation of the universe. Firstly you misunderstand the argument, William Paley held the same chair as Darwin immediately before him. He had no concept of evolution which is likely why it's fair to say his argument fails. However the argument is now called the fine tuning argument which is probabilistic and demonstrates that the anthropic principles, starting conditions, universal constants are very precisely tuned to allow for life. Even evolution itself is a part of it as the system used to develop life is ridiculously complex contrary to popular belief. In fact structural evolution pretty much debunks what rr says on how evolution counters the wm analogy

@johnrildo2325

4 жыл бұрын

@@joshuaphilip7601 I don't misunderstand anything. You need more time to research other ideas.

@joshuaphilip7601

4 жыл бұрын

@@johnrildo2325 nobody now argues that because things look designed they therefore must be. We use probability. I spend lots of time researching other ideas. Also did you like your own comment?

@johnrildo2325

4 жыл бұрын

@@joshuaphilip7601 I still hear that argument.

@ThatCrazyKid0007

3 жыл бұрын

@@joshuaphilip7601 The thing is, the fine tuning argument for a conscious, intelligent designer only works if these constants can actually change. But there is no reasonable way to conclude that this is actually possible. The other possibility is that these constants literally could not have any other value, since we haven't observed them changing yet, it's a fairly reasonable thing to assume, at least just as much as a conscious designer. This would mean there is no conscious tuning, either that's the way things have always been (remember that the same is said for the conscious designer - he was always there untuned) or there are natural laws we haven't yet discovered that dictated into what values these constants would settle (the principle of settling of a system into the lowest energetic state is all around in nature for example, so it's not an unreasonable possibility). In conclusion, the fine tuning argument can not be explained only by God and since we don't have proof that favors either option yet, it shouldn't be reasonable to conclude from it that God *must* exist, it's only one of many possible explanations.

PewDiePie has a YT Channel PewDiePie has the most subscribers. Rationality Rules Has a YT Channel. Therefore, Rationality Rules has the most subscribers

@lalitkumar-cl6qx

5 жыл бұрын

T series

@diegojesusespinozafrancia4984

5 жыл бұрын

@@lalitkumar-cl6qx sad :,v

@randomdude9135

4 жыл бұрын

T series

@konradfletcher6311

4 жыл бұрын

F

@oranges3482

4 жыл бұрын

@@cadenbraeutigam1598 Atheists aren't saying there's no God. They're saying they don't have sufficient evidence to believe in one. Since Theists are saying God exists the burden of proof lies with them not the atheists.

The watch is complex The watch was invented by Peter Henlein The universe is complex Therefore it was invented by Peter Henlein ALL PRAISE PETER HENLEIN

@tobos8909

4 жыл бұрын

@Ochuko Davis Which doctor specifically tuned your DNA, then?

@PaRaSTrAsZ

4 жыл бұрын

@Ochuko Davis No, my dear Sir, you have a misunderstanding here. It is not about all the same qualities, it is not about just the one quality of complexity, either. It is about the projection of the quality of being created, too. See, the watchmaker analogy says: 1. The watch is complex. 2. The universe is complex. 3. The watch had a creator. 4. Therefore, the universe had a creator. Because the watch and the universe share the quality of being complex (we just say this is right for the sake of argument), the analogy falsely assumes, that it also shares the quality of having a creator. The good Sir in the video explains this very minutely and also indicates further, that if that reasoning was plausible, we could also say that because watch and universe are complex and the watch has the quality of being made in 1950, that the universe therefore has the quality of being made in 1950. If you say, that it is only about complexity, you smuggle in the creator illegally. Hope I could help, have a wonderful day.

@PaRaSTrAsZ

4 жыл бұрын

@Ochuko Davis That is an excellent question and I for myself think there, of course, are dependencies. In your example the weight is dependent on its mass and the gravitational force, so the object would also need to have the quality of having mass and being in a system with gravity to have the quality of being "heavy", because of the definition of the terms. Now, the quality of complexity does not depend on the quality of being created not by definition and not by inference. As the good sir explains very coherently, it is that we already know the watch or watches in general are created by a designer, before we see the specific watch itself. If a newborn child would see the same watch, it would not know if it was designed or not, because it lacks the knowledge.

@PaRaSTrAsZ

4 жыл бұрын

​@Ochuko Davis But you cannot exchange the word,though. If you alter them, you get the following: 1. The watch is designed. 2. The universe is designed. 3. The watch has a designer. 4. Therefore, the universe has a designer. You now have simple tautologies, which are always true, because the quality of being designed is by definition dependent on a designer, but you got to that tautology by just giving the universe a quality you cannot demonstrate to be true. You are right, I cannot argue that the universe was not created, because I am no cosmologist. However, there are different hypothesis of what happened before the big bang; it is very likely, that time as we know it did not exist before the big bang and without time, there cannot be a beginning. But that said, my simple answer is: I do not know the answer. Does that mean, that a creator is more likely? No, it certainly does not, for several reasons, but for me, the most convincing one is simply Occam's Razor, which tells us to "not multiply entities without necessity." To assume, there would be a creator as long as we cannot prove it for certain is exactly that, and after the logic of everything having a beginning, the creator would have needed one, too, or you commit a special pleading fallacy, as the good Sir in the video has explained. And if you do not commit such fallacy, you end up in an infinite regress of creators creating creators. So it is best to not assume even one. My thought-experiment with the newborn child was, that we are conditioned throughout our life to be able to differ between designed things and non-designed things, but if we take away this ability, we cannot determine one or the other. If I see a watch, I was trained to see that it had a designer, because of thousands of different things, being made out of melted metal, which does not occur in nature, showing the time of the day, a construct created by us humans, having numbers on it, also created by us humans and so on. Now, if I would go to another planet and that planet had melted metal-formations standing around, I could assume, that they were designed, but maybe there is some form of natural influence who creates these things by itself. For me, I don't even have to go to another planet to have problems identifying things being designed or not, if I look at a termite mound from some distance, I could not tell if it was designed or just simply a rock, because I lack the conditioning to exactly see the difference in their structure, color and so on, while other people were conditioned for that and can easily identify it based on those qualities. So, from my point of view this thing does not look complex, while in reality it is certainly designed. Therefore, the quality of being designed does not correlate with it being complex. Only our experience and conditioning of differentiating designed things from the rest gives us the this ability and that means we also can be wrong about that. Hope that was not too confusing. It is perfectly fine, I cherish a civil conversation, where no insults are thrown, while you disagree on the topic and I think it is really irrational to think it is more likely.

@PaRaSTrAsZ

4 жыл бұрын

@Ochuko Davis 1. It is a tautology, because design BY DEFINITION requires a designer. It is the same as your example of something being heavy. something being heavy BY DEFINITION requires having mass and being in a system with gravitational force. Quantum particles have no apparent design because they are not designed, simple as that. 2+3. And if the universe existed before time began than it existed before its beginning in time. So it existed before the existence of time and no god is needed. My thought experiment did not aim to show that design and designers do not exist, nobody in his right mind would deny that, it shows that our ability to distinguish designed things from non-designed things stems from experience and conditioning and is therefore no ultimate authority, we can be wrong about things being designed or natural occurring. And it definitely does not come from things being complex. Your problem here is that you already presuppose a designer when you use the terms "natural design" and "artificial design" which means that in your view everything is designed so everything had a designer by default, which means you commit a begging-the-question-fallacy.

You know what isn't complex? An A4 sheet of paper. Yet, if you found an A4 sheet of paper somewhere, you would automatically assume that it must have had a designer. And do you know why? Because every single A4 sheet of paper that the humanity has ever come across has had a designer, and it is an object that never does occur naturally. By this we can demonstrate that it isn't the complexity of an object which determines whether or not we assume that it was designed. Rather we use our already available pool of knowledge containing the data about the origin of similar/identical objects and the feasibility of a natural occurrence of those objects. Now, how many other universes do we have to compare the ours to? Exactly ZERO.

@miltonplatt5935

6 жыл бұрын

You recognize the watch as having a designer by comparing it to the rest of the natural world, which by contrast, does not.

@Mandwar

6 жыл бұрын

Marian Palko while I don't buy into the watchmaker argument whatsoever, pointing to instances where we recognise that some simple objects are designed may not actually refute it. I would think that proponents of the argument may concede that we may recognise design in some simple objects by virtue knowledge we have on said object (we know of factories manufacturing paper, etc), but complex objects require a designer by virtue of its complexity alone. So I think its sinething along the lines of "There may be many ways to identify when a designer is necessary for an object to come into being, and complexity, being one of them, is what I use to prove that this object needs a designer". I don't think proponents of the argument have done anywhere near enough to justify the premise that complexity always implies design though, it's always just been asserted.

@simonpiper4696

5 жыл бұрын

The word used is multiverse. Multi.. Meaning what

@theconservativechristian7308

5 жыл бұрын

Here's a curveball for you. Let's say you found a contraption that you didn't know what it did, how it worked, or who or what created it (if any). Does that now mean that because you don't know who (OR WHAT) created this thing (IF ANY) and since there is no other contraption like it then that means it's illogical to assume the probability of *gasp*..........*whispers* "intelligent design? DUN, DUN, DUNNNNNNNNNN!

@adomaster123

5 жыл бұрын

The Conservative Christian I mean, we still know something about it because it's a contraption, and that word automatically implies design. This is another false analogy.

The watch was not invented in the 15th Century. It was invented in 1995. I read it in a holy book.

@AKhanboxing

5 жыл бұрын

very underrated comment

@JiraiyaPilled

4 жыл бұрын

Super underrated

@uncleben7306

3 жыл бұрын

shockingly underrated

@UnburdenedByWhatHasBeen

3 жыл бұрын

I dont get it

@gldistrict

3 жыл бұрын

Fr time didn’t even exist back then 😒

Watches are complex Switzerland is the best at watch-making The universe is complex Therefore, bow down to Switzerland !

@huldanoren951

3 жыл бұрын

Where can I join the church of Switzerland?

@pavel9652

3 жыл бұрын

@@huldanoren951 Go to the nearest bank xD

God Is Complex Therefore God Had a Designer.

@LynchyVidz

6 жыл бұрын

#TheJames Spot on.

@ferashannawi1136

6 жыл бұрын

#TheJames false premise. And complexity is relative.

@ferashannawi1136

6 жыл бұрын

#TheJames false premise. And seductive logic. God is not complex. And if the law of complexity-designer is obeyed by the physical laws. That doesn’t mean the metaphysical real obeys that law two. You’ll still have to build a case to prove that at least. Lol

@chenyanhao676

6 жыл бұрын

more special pleading, no, you're the one postulating that the laws of the two realms don't equate, you provide the evidence. Noone's gonna argue with the position that the two equate as atheists don't know. And what is seductive logic? God is not complex-then what exactly is god? His parts? His whole? So only he knows what he is?

@astraegraves9152

6 жыл бұрын

#TheJames You are excluding the common known fact that the multiverse was create by the touching of the Flying Spaghetti Monsters noodly appendages. And hence he created God to mind over the smaller people of the world. Everyone knows that. Although it is true that people will argue that Physical and Metaphysical entities can't be compared... I call bs, god has so many contradicting factors (omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolance in themselves are enough) that saying "he can because he's metaphysical" is like me claiming to be a magician and saying "you just can't see it because it's magic". G'day to y'all

Why wouldn't Paley upon finding a watch in the grass and examining its complexity remark, "Look what God has designed." Because we have evidence that watchmakers exist.

@jsphblw

5 жыл бұрын

Chris Coulbeck - You’re missing the point. The reason Paley doesn’t automatically assume that the watch was made by God is because he KNOWS that watchmakers exist and that making watches is kinda their thing. He doesn’t know how the complex beings came into existence so he attributes it to “God”.

Six years later and you have MORE than the 300,000 subscribers Armored Skeptic had at the time of this video. Well played.

What always blew my mind about this argument was the set up. If I'm walking through a forrest and I find a pocket watch, I will know it is designed because it bears such a stark contradistinction to the properties of everything else around it. Nothing about that watch can arise naturally, yet given enough patience I could sit there and watch the trees grow. I can perfectly demonstrate the natural process responsible for the production of every complex organism on this planet, and not one of those processes include or require a "designer". Yet we will never witness the construction of a pocket watch without a designer. Though to be fair, creationist aren't exactly known for their logical prowess.

@ALMA3LOMATCHANNEL

3 жыл бұрын

Firstly, if you can "perfectly demonstrate the natural process responsible for the production of every complex organism on this planet", science cannot. Secondly, theists say that not only the tree is designed; but also the process that the seed for instance follows to become a tree is designed by God and He guides the seed to follow it, the Quran 20:50 says: He answered, “Our Lord is the One Who has given everything its ˹distinctive˺ form, then guided ˹it˺.”. Actually God told us that behind every natural phenomena there is a cause and he is the causer of this cause, and told us about some natural phenomena and its cause .. for example the origin of production of milk in cows, the Quran says :"And there is certainly a lesson for you in cattle: We give you to drink of what is in their bellies, from between digested food and blood: pure milk, pleasant to drink. 16:66

@jtalistair6725

3 жыл бұрын

@@ALMA3LOMATCHANNEL So your argumdent is redundant? If the tree is so obviously designed, why use an artifical construction as an analogy? Or are you committing a begging the question fallacy? Assuming the conclusion within the premises. Any way you try to slice it, the telelogical argument is fallacious and unsound. But, so is every other theistic argument.

@ALMA3LOMATCHANNEL

3 жыл бұрын

@@jtalistair6725 What r u talking abt?! The analogy is used to let u know that spicified complexity and specified information( the information that drive the flave to become a butterfly for example) cannot in any way be the result of a natural law

@ezekielanderson9055

3 жыл бұрын

Ok, let’s debunk this debunking video. 1:33 False Analogy. First this guy says the watch is a bad analogy. His definition of analogy is “A comparison between things that have similar features for the purpose of explaining a principle of idea.” So based on his definition, there are 3 criteria. Things have to be compared. They have to be similar. And they have to explain an idea. In the watchmaker analogy, are things being compared? Yes. Are they similar? Yes. And are they explaining an idea? Yes. So I’m not sure why he thinks it’s a bad analogy. His problem lies in the comparison. He somehow thinks it is a bad comparison. I agree that correlation is not always causation. He gives an example of the same logic. He says watches are made in the 15th century; therefore the universe was made in the 15th century. It is true that this is a bad analogy because we have proof that the universe was made before the 15th century. However, there the watchmaker analogy has nothing to do with when the universe was made, so this is a straw man argument. And based on his logic, every analogy in existence is wrong because correlation is not always causation. The watch and the universe are complex, and the watch has a designer; therefore the universe has a designer. This guy thinks this is wrong. But in order for this to be wrong, there would need to be complex things that do not have a designer. However there is nothing complex does not have a designer, so it is a good analogy. I don’t see the problem here. 2:41 He says that complexity can happen without a designer. The example he gives is evolution (which has proven countless times to be not true. At least macroevolution has been). But he gets to that later. Give me one other example of something complex NOT happening by a designer. Go ahead. I’ll wait. 3:46 Evolution by Natural Selection. I laughed by guts out when I heard this one. Natural selection does not make complex things. It only rearranges preexisting traits. For example, it can make more fish have armored plates to protect from predators. Or it can make giraffes necks grow longer. But the armor and neck already existed. And those are the complex parts. Making more of something that already exists does not make it more complex. In order for complexity to occur, new information needs to be added. But natural selection cannot add information. It can only rearrange it. The new information needs to come from somewhere else. According to evolutionists, it comes from mutations. However, most mutations are not beneficial or hereditary. A mutation is only hereditary if it is on the gamete that is used for reproduction. And not every mutation in the organism will be on the gamete. In fact, most won’t. If an organism has a trillion cells, only one-trillionth of the mutations will be on the gamete and will be passed on. So there is only one in a trillionth chance that any given mutation in the organism will be passed on. So that means an organism needs to have one trillion babies for the mutation to be passed on. The organism would obviously die before that happens. So mutations can’t cause evolution. And even if a mutation was passed on, most are not beneficial. So this debunks macroevolution, thus debunking his claim that evolution causes complexity. Evolution can’t cause anything when it can’t even happen. 4:22 “The reason we recognize a watch as designed has nothing to do with how complex and purposed it is, but rather because we already know that it is designed.” And we also know the universe was designed. How can you believe something so complex randomly happened by chance? 4:45 “We have zero examples of life being created by a designer” Actually, scientists have cloned animals. That is an example of life being created by a designer. And I’m sure scientists are working towards making life from non-life. This would prove creation because it would prove life needs a designer to be made. However, if we could observe life being made randomly by chance in nature, that would prove the abiogenesis hypotheses. Because it would prove there is no designer needed. And based on that logic, we also have never seen life being made by something that is NOT a designer. We have never seen life being created at all. We’ve never once observed the abiogenesis. But, like the watchmaker analogy says, it is much more logical to conclude that we are designed because of complexity. This guy hasn’t even come close to debunking this yet. Over half way into the video. 4:55 Special Pleading Fallacy, or Self Refuting. He says that God must have had a designer. He clearly doesn’t understand the whole concept of God. According to most religions, God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Something with those qualities does not need a designer; and something with those qualities can cake complex things. So God does not need a designer, or He wouldn’t be God. 5:54 Self-contradicting. “The argument first assumes that a watch is different from nature”. No, the whole point of the argument is that it is comparing nature to a watch. The argument says they are both complex, and therefore both have a designer. What part of that assumes that the watch is different from nature? This guy clearly doesn’t understand the very thing he is arguing against. 6:17 It doesn’t imply a designer. This one made me want to bang my head against the wall. It further proves my point that this guy clearly doesn’t understand the very thing he is arguing against. The whole point of the watchmaker argument is that there must be a designer. So it both implies and directly states that there must be one. Then he says that there must be many creators and not just one. But the watchmaker argument never once claims that there is ONLY ONE designer. There could be multiple designers. I don’t understand how this debunks the argument. 6:52 Ex Nihilo. Finally, an actual good point that this guy makes. He says that a watch is made with preexisting materials, so whoever designed the universe must also have made it from preexisting materials. I don’t really have a rebuttal for this one other than my earlier point that God is omnipotent. So He can do anything, and thus He can create something from nothing. Good job, dude. You made me not have a decent rebuttal for the first time and we are almost at the end of the video. 7:18 Doesn’t Support Theism. Yes it does. A designer = God. How can you not understand this simple fact? He then says that the watchmaker argument only proves a designer, not which one. But the last time I checked, the argument was never trying to prove a specific God. Only that a God exists. This is a dumb argument that I see thrown around a lot by atheists. “Your argument didn’t prove which god is real; therefore it’s not a good argument!” Proving WHICH god is the real god is a whole different subject that requires a completely different discussion. We are simply trying to get to you atheists that a god exists, not which one. Once we prove that obvious fact, THEN we can talk about which one. 7:40 Incompetent design. He then says that God wouldn’t make organisms with vestigial parts, birth defects and pregnancy complications, etc. I’ve also heard this one a lot. “God didn’t do this thing I think He should do. That means God isn’t real!” No, it just means you don’t understand God. He says that God is either not omnipotent or not omnibenevolent. First of all, the “vestigial parts” do have a use. In the illustrations, he uses the human tail bone as an example of a vestigial part. This actually has a lot of uses, like keeping you balanced and being able to move your hips. And for the birth defects, that’s a result of sin. Every bad thing that happens is a result of sin. If we didn’t sin, nothing bad would happen. It’s not God’s fault that bad stuff happens; it’s our fault. 9:20 He gives another false analogy to somehow disprove the watchmaker analogy. The analogy is that a person has a youtube channel and has 300k subs. And another person has a channel, and therefore must have 300k subs. The difference between this and the watchmaker argument is that youtube channels have been proven to have more or less than 300k subs. But nothing that is complex has ever been proven to not be designed. He said there are lots of examples, but the only one he gave was natural selection, which I thoroughly debunked. Still waiting for another example of something complex NOT being designed ;)

@jtalistair6725

3 жыл бұрын

@@ezekielanderson9055 You took all that time to type all of that out. And it took me less than 2 seconds of reading to know you're a complete ignoramus with no idea what you're fucking talking about. Keep denying reality all you want.

You could simply reject the premise that complexity is a feature of design.

@geoffreysorkin5774

5 жыл бұрын

Hell, you could point out that in comparison to the grass or trees around it, the obviously designed thing (the watch) isn't actually complex. That a supposed intelligence was incapable of actual complexity, with only a very limited number of moving parts. Ergo, complexity is in fact a hallmark of nature, as opposed to intelligence.

@logicalrefuge8366

4 жыл бұрын

@@geoffreysorkin5774 lol, you assign the Creator human like intelligence? The complexity you're witnessing is work of the Creator. Call it nature or anything you want. You're a witness.

@sad-pt7xd

4 жыл бұрын

logical refuge okay but complexity doesn’t mean a creator made it

@logicalrefuge8366

4 жыл бұрын

@@sad-pt7xd then what? Nature made it? 🤯

@sad-pt7xd

4 жыл бұрын

logical refuge exactly, besides wouldn’t an infinite being be more complex, therefore needing a creator?

Design flaws in nature are our fault because our ancestors ate some magic fruit before we were born. Duh!

@JohnSpike8888

7 жыл бұрын

Of course. And because our ancestors ate the magic fruit (which magical sky daddy wanted them to eat anyway), other species have flaws in their anatomy also. Because god is sooooo (un)just.

@Templetonq

7 жыл бұрын

Creationists have their work cut out for them reconciling the fallen world argument with the teleological argument. If a wasp lays its eggs in a spider it cannot be just an automatic result of a fallen world. By the teleological argument it must have been designed that way, and only God could have done that.

@tannu4377

5 жыл бұрын

@@Templetonq And if the god can design the world... why the fuck did he put the magical fruit in it?

@matheus5230

5 жыл бұрын

Tannu It was a test for ours fidelity. It proves that God gives us free will and let us do even mistakes

@collinsigbiks9701

5 жыл бұрын

That's just silly, doesn't God know everything.

I just rewatched this and by the end (9:30) thought "let's see how many subscribers he has by now". It's 300K. Not 299K or 301K, it's 300K. I love coincidences.

A watch tells time. My smartphone tells time. Therefore, my watch can make calls.

Depending upon the criteria used, one could argue that a watch is actually far simpler than the natural world around it - even a simple rock can have millions of facets and variances in its shape and makeup, far more than the watch, which lacks any unnecessary components, or adaptation of previous iterations of watches, which are inferior in how they accomplish any given task.

@tyzer32

7 жыл бұрын

You're right..."complex" is a relative term.

@platitudeomenw441

6 жыл бұрын

A watch, I would say, is far more complex than a rock

@EskChan19

2 жыл бұрын

@@platitudeomenw441 But is it far more complex than a tree?

The false analogy is also an example of a logical fallacy called affirming the consequent. This argument here is valid," men are mortal, Socrates is man, therefore Socrates is mortal" however this next argument is an example of affirming the consequent," Socrates is mortal, men are mortal, therefore all men are Socrates."

God is complex. The watch is complex. Therefore, The watchmaker made god

@EskChan19

2 жыл бұрын

Watches are complex. God is complex Therefore. God is a watch.

@XnonTheGod

2 жыл бұрын

I died laughing 😆🤣👍

@paulshimkin2713

4 ай бұрын

God is actually simple though. Read Aquinas

In fairness, complexity = creator is not the only way the analogy has been used. I've always used the watchmaker concept to give room to possibility of God while rejecting the notion of religious scriptures being statements of fact. Treating the watch as a metaphor for nature itself, the possibility of an intelligent designer creating a machine and leaving it to function quasi-independently is a decent way to reconcile the observable with the unfalsifiable. Doesn't necessarily make it a true statement, but the point was never to claim that it is to me.

"Let's imagine you're walking in the woods and come across a watch. The watch is beautiful and set to precisely the correct time. You'd assume it had a designer, unlike the rock next to it; which is completely useless"

@SpaceKingDinosaur

7 жыл бұрын

OR we could admit that we know watches are made by humans and do not occur naturally. If you're saying that the whole of the universe, including the rock, are made by a deity, what are we comparing the universe against? What would a universe NOT made by a deity look like, how would it be different than this one, and how would we know which is which?

@swinde

7 жыл бұрын

Jordan ... You could use the rock to smash the watch!

@Jordan21Michael

7 жыл бұрын

Swinde exactly... because the watch isn't pure and natural! I just think the entire argument is funny on it's face. "You notice a watch. It's beautiful and set to precisely the right time". Should the fact that we are noticing a symmetrical, designed watch, show that it's different from a rock or a tree? If EVERYTHING was designed for a purpose then you'd never notice the watch, because you are busy noticing the purpose and intent in everything else. But for some reason the watch is special. It has a purpose. That purpose is clear. Unlike everything else around it.

@memesredacted

7 жыл бұрын

Jordan21Michael lets imagine youre walking in the woods. there's no one around and your phone is dead. out of the corner of your eye you spot him. shia labeouf. he's following you, about 30 feet back. he gets down on all fours and breaks into a sprint. he's gaining on you. shia labeouf.

@thejudgmentalcat

7 жыл бұрын

MemesAreCancer That's just scary man.

There's one more mistake that the watchmaker argument makes. The watch is being compared to the universe, or at least nature, to say it's complex. What is the universe being compared against? (I'm pretty sure I heard this from Matt Dillahunty.)

@RaoulRamsaran

7 жыл бұрын

mind blown...

@SpaceKingDinosaur

7 жыл бұрын

: ) Me too. That Matt is a smart fellow.

@Oswlek

7 жыл бұрын

Yes, it is contrast not complexity that indicates design. Amusingly, theists concede this when they introduce "irreducible complexity", which basically states that maximal _simplicity_ is the hallmark of design. Apologists: claiming victory on both sides of the coin for 2,000 years and counting. :)

@zayanwatchel8780

6 жыл бұрын

SpaceKingDinosaur ehh it might be an equivocation fallacy

@steadfastneasy26

6 жыл бұрын

@SpaceKingDinosaur "What is the universe being compared against? " What is available to compare the universe with?? Nothing, which is why it is a DUMB question.

I'm glad you are on KZread to make these videos addressing specific arguments because otherwise its kind of hard to find videos directly dealing with these arguments (most of the time you find arguments/counterarguments buried in long-form videos about a related topic)

@emily7635

2 ай бұрын

one day you may find out God is superbeing better than AI and it has super natural powers like some humans claim we are still evolving another senses...we don't really know what we are to the end so how can we make a videos stating against the Designer 😂😂😂

Creatard: a watch is complex, and it has a designer...the universe is complex therefore it also has a designer Me (using the same idiotic logic): a snowflake is complex, and it forms spontaneously... the universe is complex therefore it also forms spontaneously And people ask why creatards are laughed at

@brandondaniels2027

4 жыл бұрын

I love when they fire back with basically saying "we don't know. Therefore God."

@yeetri1034

3 жыл бұрын

@@brandondaniels2027 Yeah. Just because we don't know doesn't mean it's god and one even said to me "When you don't know you should ask someone who knows which is me"They act like they know, even though they don't

@ezekielanderson9055

3 жыл бұрын

Ok, let’s debunk this debunking video. 1:33 False Analogy. First this guy says the watch is a bad analogy. His definition of analogy is “A comparison between things that have similar features for the purpose of explaining a principle of idea.” So based on his definition, there are 3 criteria. Things have to be compared. They have to be similar. And they have to explain an idea. In the watchmaker analogy, are things being compared? Yes. Are they similar? Yes. And are they explaining an idea? Yes. So I’m not sure why he thinks it’s a bad analogy. His problem lies in the comparison. He somehow thinks it is a bad comparison. I agree that correlation is not always causation. He gives an example of the same logic. He says watches are made in the 15th century; therefore the universe was made in the 15th century. It is true that this is a bad analogy because we have proof that the universe was made before the 15th century. However, there the watchmaker analogy has nothing to do with when the universe was made, so this is a straw man argument. And based on his logic, every analogy in existence is wrong because correlation is not always causation. The watch and the universe are complex, and the watch has a designer; therefore the universe has a designer. This guy thinks this is wrong. But in order for this to be wrong, there would need to be complex things that do not have a designer. However there is nothing complex does not have a designer, so it is a good analogy. I don’t see the problem here. 2:41 He says that complexity can happen without a designer. The example he gives is evolution (which has proven countless times to be not true. At least macroevolution has been). But he gets to that later. Give me one other example of something complex NOT happening by a designer. Go ahead. I’ll wait. 3:46 Evolution by Natural Selection. I laughed by guts out when I heard this one. Natural selection does not make complex things. It only rearranges preexisting traits. For example, it can make more fish have armored plates to protect from predators. Or it can make giraffes necks grow longer. But the armor and neck already existed. And those are the complex parts. Making more of something that already exists does not make it more complex. In order for complexity to occur, new information needs to be added. But natural selection cannot add information. It can only rearrange it. The new information needs to come from somewhere else. According to evolutionists, it comes from mutations. However, most mutations are not beneficial or hereditary. A mutation is only hereditary if it is on the gamete that is used for reproduction. And not every mutation in the organism will be on the gamete. In fact, most won’t. If an organism has a trillion cells, only one-trillionth of the mutations will be on the gamete and will be passed on. So there is only one in a trillionth chance that any given mutation in the organism will be passed on. So that means an organism needs to have one trillion babies for the mutation to be passed on. The organism would obviously die before that happens. So mutations can’t cause evolution. And even if a mutation was passed on, most are not beneficial. So this debunks macroevolution, thus debunking his claim that evolution causes complexity. Evolution can’t cause anything when it can’t even happen. 4:22 “The reason we recognize a watch as designed has nothing to do with how complex and purposed it is, but rather because we already know that it is designed.” And we also know the universe was designed. How can you believe something so complex randomly happened by chance? 4:45 “We have zero examples of life being created by a designer” Actually, scientists have cloned animals. That is an example of life being created by a designer. And I’m sure scientists are working towards making life from non-life. This would prove creation because it would prove life needs a designer to be made. However, if we could observe life being made randomly by chance in nature, that would prove the abiogenesis hypotheses. Because it would prove there is no designer needed. And based on that logic, we also have never seen life being made by something that is NOT a designer. We have never seen life being created at all. We’ve never once observed the abiogenesis. But, like the watchmaker analogy says, it is much more logical to conclude that we are designed because of complexity. This guy hasn’t even come close to debunking this yet. Over half way into the video. 4:55 Special Pleading Fallacy, or Self Refuting. He says that God must have had a designer. He clearly doesn’t understand the whole concept of God. According to most religions, God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Something with those qualities does not need a designer; and something with those qualities can cake complex things. So God does not need a designer, or He wouldn’t be God. 5:54 Self-contradicting. “The argument first assumes that a watch is different from nature”. No, the whole point of the argument is that it is comparing nature to a watch. The argument says they are both complex, and therefore both have a designer. What part of that assumes that the watch is different from nature? This guy clearly doesn’t understand the very thing he is arguing against. 6:17 It doesn’t imply a designer. This one made me want to bang my head against the wall. It further proves my point that this guy clearly doesn’t understand the very thing he is arguing against. The whole point of the watchmaker argument is that there must be a designer. So it both implies and directly states that there must be one. Then he says that there must be many creators and not just one. But the watchmaker argument never once claims that there is ONLY ONE designer. There could be multiple designers. I don’t understand how this debunks the argument. 6:52 Ex Nihilo. Finally, an actual good point that this guy makes. He says that a watch is made with preexisting materials, so whoever designed the universe must also have made it from preexisting materials. I don’t really have a rebuttal for this one other than my earlier point that God is omnipotent. So He can do anything, and thus He can create something from nothing. Good job, dude. You made me not have a decent rebuttal for the first time and we are almost at the end of the video. 7:18 Doesn’t Support Theism. Yes it does. A designer = God. How can you not understand this simple fact? He then says that the watchmaker argument only proves a designer, not which one. But the last time I checked, the argument was never trying to prove a specific God. Only that a God exists. This is a dumb argument that I see thrown around a lot by atheists. “Your argument didn’t prove which god is real; therefore it’s not a good argument!” Proving WHICH god is the real god is a whole different subject that requires a completely different discussion. We are simply trying to get to you atheists that a god exists, not which one. Once we prove that obvious fact, THEN we can talk about which one. 7:40 Incompetent design. He then says that God wouldn’t make organisms with vestigial parts, birth defects and pregnancy complications, etc. I’ve also heard this one a lot. “God didn’t do this thing I think He should do. That means God isn’t real!” No, it just means you don’t understand God. He says that God is either not omnipotent or not omnibenevolent. First of all, the “vestigial parts” do have a use. In the illustrations, he uses the human tail bone as an example of a vestigial part. This actually has a lot of uses, like keeping you balanced and being able to move your hips. And for the birth defects, that’s a result of sin. Every bad thing that happens is a result of sin. If we didn’t sin, nothing bad would happen. It’s not God’s fault that bad stuff happens; it’s our fault. 9:20 He gives another false analogy to somehow disprove the watchmaker analogy. The analogy is that a person has a youtube channel and has 300k subs. And another person has a channel, and therefore must have 300k subs. The difference between this and the watchmaker argument is that youtube channels have been proven to have more or less than 300k subs. But nothing that is complex has ever been proven to not be designed. He said there are lots of examples, but the only one he gave was natural selection, which I thoroughly debunked. Still waiting for another example of something complex NOT being designed ;)

Additionally, the watchmaker argument compares artificial objects to nature. Since all artificial objects are made by humans, and nature isn't, you can never compare the two. I realise the false analogy argument already covers that, but I think it doesn't hurt to mention it anyway.

@yahyad3221

6 жыл бұрын

Artificial Objects are made from Natures substances dumbass

@gabrielesimionato1210

6 жыл бұрын

Therefor, humans are not nature.

@harikrishnans1421

5 жыл бұрын

Nature is not man made but for theists it artificial too “”GOD”” created it 🙄

@simonmohapi361

4 жыл бұрын

Watches are complex Watches are made by humans The univers is complex Therefore, The universe is made by humans Checkmate Theists

@galactorsus_i.n.c

3 жыл бұрын

@@simonmohapi361 actually that's a amazing way to make some brain freeze.

It basically boils down to : “If things had been different at the start, they would be different now”

We know what is required to create a watch, because we have experience creating watches. We do not know what is required to create a universe, because we have no experience creating universes.

@ezekielanderson9055

3 жыл бұрын

Creating a universe would require being able to make matter, energy, space, and time from nothing. Perfectly described God.

The argument is not that the universe must be like a watch. The argument is that complexity must be the result of design because complexity is only found as a result of design, just like the fact that a watch had to be built by an intelligence because we don't see watches building themselves (or even things far less complex than a watch being constructed by themselves). The fact a watch had a designer doesn't mean it was built in a particular year, but that is what's being asserted here for some reason. The year the watch was designed is just a quality of the watch. Therefore it doesn't follow that the universe was constructed in the same year as the watch if they were both designed.

What if you're walking down a beach and you see a turtle, and think, look at the trouble that's having getting to the water. It can't be intelligence, it must have evolved.

So here are my two thoughts on this that get looked over a lot (or at least not delved into as much) 1) It is not the watch's complexity that tells us it is designed, but rather it's function. The watch clearly tells time, it is designed to tell time. All of it's complexity is towards a single purpose. It doesn't do a single thing that isn't about telling time. However, life doesn't have a clear function. The tree isn't only designed for a single purpose, it just IS. 2) It's not the watch's complexity that tells us it's designed, but rather our pattern recognition. Rationality briefly touches on this when he mentions that we know a watch has a creator because every watch we've seen has been built. But what if it wasn't a watch but some unknown machine. Well, we'd still know it looks like a machine, it's made of metal, it has whirling gears and coils, and runs off a battery. We recognize it is something designed, not because it's complex, but because it looks like something designed. So what if you encountered the following You are walking in the woods when you come across... a thing. You've never seen anything like it. It's an ovaliod, and appears to be made out of a slimy material, halfway between a mucous and a gelatin in consistency. It's shape is held together by a beehive latices of woven fibers made of a material that you've never seen before. It occasionally emits light and sound, in what seems like random intervals, but it might be a pattern that's too complex for you to follow. It's complex, there's no denying that. But is it a construct? Is it an organism? Is it just some strange kind of rock? There's no way of knowing, because it's too foreign to you. You cannot begin to guess if it has a designer or not, because unlike the watch, which looks like something that was designed, and unlike the tree, which looks like something natural, you've never seen anything like this.

@ahmadieb

3 жыл бұрын

The tree have many purposes one of them it is designed to be food for animals and insects and humans.

@MasamiPhoenix

3 жыл бұрын

@@ahmadieb it has many FUNCTIONS but only one PURPOSE: to reproduce. The fact that animals can eat its fruit was actually initially a function of the animals not the trees. Many (bht not all) evolved to incorporate this feature into their own functionality later.

@ahmadieb

3 жыл бұрын

@@MasamiPhoenix Ok !

@ahmadieb

3 жыл бұрын

@@MasamiPhoenix So how do you debunk the watchmaker argument?

@MasamiPhoenix

3 жыл бұрын

​@@ahmadieb Wow, I mean there are so many different ways I can debunk this argument. A lot depends on the nuance of how it's originally presented, and I can probably come up with about ten in general. The puddle argument, the bismuth argument, failed analogy, questioning whether the world looks designed, and so on. But I will go with what I feel is the best and simplest. Let's start by defining the watchmaker argument. Complexity is ultimately a red herring as RR pointed out, and can be better phrased as "appears designed," so it comes down to this 1) Everything that appears designed has a designer 2) The universe appears designed. Conclusion: The universe was designed. Now there's a lot of flaws with both premise 1 and premise 2, but I'm just going to look at the two of them together. The problem here, is that the definition of "appears designed" has two different definitions. In the first premise, appears designed means that it appears that it was constructed by an intelligence (specifically man). When we see the watch on the beach we know it was designed because it looks like something that was designed by man, and not part of nature. The same is true of carved statues, writing, and so on. Everything that "appears designed" is so because it was shaped by an intelligence. The second premise redefines "appears designed" to mean anything that has a sense of order and complexity. Everything, both manmade and natural appear orderly and complex. So here's the basic problem. 1) If you use the first definition of "appearing that it was constructed by an intelligence." then the second premise fails, because nature does not appear to be constructed by intelligence. 2) If we use the second definition of "has a sense of order and complexity" than the first premise fails because we have plenty of examples of things that have complexity and order that do not necessarily have a designer. This will always be a flaw with this argument or any similar ones. Either only things that we have designed look designed, in which case it doesn't prove anything about things we haven't designed. Or everything looks designed in which case it doesn't prove anything about things that look designed.

As I understand it, the argument from design is an inferential argument. Its conclusion is not that there must be a designer but rather that it is reasonable to infer a designer in the face of ordered complexity. This is intelligent design argument of thomas aquinas who argues from probability not absolute certainty

_"Armored Skeptic has a KZread channel. Armored Skeptic has 300.000 subscribers. Rationality Rules has a KZread channel. Therefore, Rationality Rules has 300.000 subscribers."_ (9:20) > Check! March 2022: Rationality Rules, 300K subscribers

Then the intelligent designer is also revealing their flaws. Timepieces run fast or slow, cogs wear, springs lose elasticity. So the watchmaker is limited by material properties which they cannot overcome, therefore not omnipowerful or omniscient or omnipresent.

@EskChan19

2 жыл бұрын

Being limited by material properties is not mutually exclusive with omnipresence. Or technically omniscience. You can still be everywhere at once and still build a shitty watch. You can still know everything but just know that building a great watch is impossible. However, you're right that makes you not omnipowerful. Because in that case you could just create a perfect material that is not subject to these factors.

Rationality Rules should have 300,000 subs

@rationalityrules

7 жыл бұрын

That's an overwhelmingly powerful argument you have there David :P

@SpaceKingDinosaur

7 жыл бұрын

Seconded!

@thejudgmentalcat

7 жыл бұрын

David du Preez It. Just. Makes. Sense. 300,000 subs. Brilliant!

@neilforbes416

7 жыл бұрын

He's well on the way to achieving that goal.

@angeloortiz2769

6 жыл бұрын

*300,000,000

One of the best and most comprehensive exposures to date.

Here is a debate I have been having with a Catholic online lately... -What makes you sure there is a God? -Because everything must have a creator. -Then why doesn't your God have a creator? -Because God is uncreated. -Then why can't universe be uncreated too? -Because it can't be uncreated. That doesn't make sense. Everything must have a creator. He keeps repeating himself like that; it's hilarious.😅

Thank you Stephen: My Son's found this video, The unmoved mover and Pascal's video really useful for revision for his exam he had today.

Even as someone who hasn't thought about religion vs science in a long time, this was still just really intellectually satisfying for me to watch. The way you logically deconstructed the Watchmaker Analogy was just *chef's kiss*

@theblackspark2644

Жыл бұрын

My only issue with this video is that it acts like the watchmaker argument is the same as the design argument.

@xxsaruman82xx87

Жыл бұрын

@@theblackspark2644 It is a formulation of it, though

This quote from Life, the Universe and Everything explains it all: "The life cycle of ratchet screwdriver fruit is quite interesting. Once picked it needs a dark dusty drawer in which it can lie undisturbed for years. Then one night it suddenly hatches, discards its outer shell which crumbles to dust, and emerges as a totally unidentifiable little metal object with flanges at both ends and a sort of ridge and a sort of hole for a screw. This, when found, will get thrown away. No one knows what it is supposed to gain from this. Nature, in her infinite wisdom, is presumably working on it."

"This estate was designed just for you by a brilliant architect! He has thoughtfully seeded the grounds with landmines, flooded the house with poison gas, but made a cozy place for you in this locked wardrobe. There's even a little window so you can peer out at your wonderful holdings!"

Nice graphic design skills, bro.

9:16 : "Rationality Rules has a youtube channel - Rationality Rules has 300 000 subscribers" (2022: 302 000) 😉😂 Congrats!

9:20 I guess we knew that this irony would arrive, but...congrats. You, sir, have over 300,000 subscribers!

There's also Matt Dillahunty's point that we only recognise a watch has been designed because we've either seen a watch before or we've seen other similar gadgets and the things that are used to build them - screws, glass, thin metal, text etc. That's how we can tell it has been designed, not because we can tell it's complex.

Watching this as of 2022 and saying your channel has 300k subs is actually accurate

6:30 “you would a”shoe”me that a shoe maker made that shoe 😂

@haraldschuster3067

3 жыл бұрын

That's shoerly a bad pun ...

This video has convinced me that watches grow naturally in fields. I feel so scientific now!

@mrchoon2010

2 жыл бұрын

Really? I thought tree were made by people

@taylorsessions4143

2 жыл бұрын

@@mrchoon2010 😂 it's just plain logic!

I love your "overwhelmingly powerful" arguments at the end. On a serious note, I hadn't even considered the that this argument implies many designers nor had I noticed the implied contradictions in the argument. Very insightful.

@echo7227

11 ай бұрын

His logic is extremely flawed and stupid. He actually makes the watch maker analogy more believable with his nonsense

@lilith_speaks_out

11 ай бұрын

@@echo7227 how so?

@echo7227

11 ай бұрын

@@lilith_speaks_out he claims the watchmaker argument implies multiple designers. It doesn’t. The watch is one complex system that obviously had a designer. The universe is also one complex system that logically had to have a designer. Saying the watch maker argument implies that “life must have a life maker and the son must have a son maker” would be the equivalent to looking at a watch and saying there must have been a different designer for each little part instead of one designer for the whole His arguments are ridiculous

@hobdns5933

2 ай бұрын

we all agree on the fact that there is a necessary existence, beacuse actual infinites are impossible, ie infinite regress , so bellow i present some simple arguments on why we go with it being god The concept of a necessary being, or a first mover, is based on the premise that an infinite regress is impossible. Therefore, even atheists acknowledge the existence of a necessary being; they just don't call it God. Their argument usually revolves around the lack of evidence, to which we counter with the idea that it makes sense to believe in a God, as there's a possibility of punishment for disbelief, whereas atheists, if wrong, face potential consequences. Morality is another area where the existence of God is often argued. The claim is that without a higher authority defining what is morally good or bad, morality becomes subjective, varying from person to person and generation to generation. The existence of good in the world suggests the existence of an inherently good, sentient being-God. Atheists might argue that natural selection created feelings like good and evil, but this seems rather odd. The complexity of life, from simple organisms to complex beings like humans, suggests intelligent design. For instance, a cell requires a multitude of functions to operate, and these functions need to be created simultaneously or in close proximity to function properly. This implies the need for a creator, as random chance seems an insufficient explanation for such intricate systems

@hobdns5933

2 ай бұрын

​@@lilith_speaks_out we all agree on the fact that there is a necessary existence, beacuse actual infinites are impossible, ie infinite regress , so bellow i present some simple arguments on why we go with it being god The concept of a necessary being, or a first mover, is based on the premise that an infinite regress is impossible. Therefore, even atheists acknowledge the existence of a necessary being; they just don't call it God. Their argument usually revolves around the lack of evidence, to which we counter with the idea that it makes sense to believe in a God, as there's a possibility of punishment for disbelief, whereas atheists, if wrong, face potential consequences. Morality is another area where the existence of God is often argued. The claim is that without a higher authority defining what is morally good or bad, morality becomes subjective, varying from person to person and generation to generation. The existence of good in the world suggests the existence of an inherently good, sentient being-God. Atheists might argue that natural selection created feelings like good and evil, but this seems rather odd. The complexity of life, from simple organisms to complex beings like humans, suggests intelligent design. For instance, a cell requires a multitude of functions to operate, and these functions need to be created simultaneously or in close proximity to function properly. This implies the need for a creator, as random chance seems an insufficient explanation for such intricate systems

God Damnit...your accent alone adds at least 20 IQ points. Not quite the same with my American accent. Just found your channel from GMSkeptic. Cheers from AZ, USA

a cave is complex caves are created naturally the universe is complex therefore the universe is created naturally

@ezekielanderson9055

3 жыл бұрын

Ok, let’s debunk this debunking video. 1:33 False Analogy. First this guy says the watch is a bad analogy. His definition of analogy is “A comparison between things that have similar features for the purpose of explaining a principle of idea.” So based on his definition, there are 3 criteria. Things have to be compared. They have to be similar. And they have to explain an idea. In the watchmaker analogy, are things being compared? Yes. Are they similar? Yes. And are they explaining an idea? Yes. So I’m not sure why he thinks it’s a bad analogy. His problem lies in the comparison. He somehow thinks it is a bad comparison. I agree that correlation is not always causation. He gives an example of the same logic. He says watches are made in the 15th century; therefore the universe was made in the 15th century. It is true that this is a bad analogy because we have proof that the universe was made before the 15th century. However, there the watchmaker analogy has nothing to do with when the universe was made, so this is a straw man argument. And based on his logic, every analogy in existence is wrong because correlation is not always causation. The watch and the universe are complex, and the watch has a designer; therefore the universe has a designer. This guy thinks this is wrong. But in order for this to be wrong, there would need to be complex things that do not have a designer. However there is nothing complex does not have a designer, so it is a good analogy. I don’t see the problem here. 2:41 He says that complexity can happen without a designer. The example he gives is evolution (which has proven countless times to be not true. At least macroevolution has been). But he gets to that later. Give me one other example of something complex NOT happening by a designer. Go ahead. I’ll wait. 3:46 Evolution by Natural Selection. I laughed by guts out when I heard this one. Natural selection does not make complex things. It only rearranges preexisting traits. For example, it can make more fish have armored plates to protect from predators. Or it can make giraffes necks grow longer. But the armor and neck already existed. And those are the complex parts. Making more of something that already exists does not make it more complex. In order for complexity to occur, new information needs to be added. But natural selection cannot add information. It can only rearrange it. The new information needs to come from somewhere else. According to evolutionists, it comes from mutations. However, most mutations are not beneficial or hereditary. A mutation is only hereditary if it is on the gamete that is used for reproduction. And not every mutation in the organism will be on the gamete. In fact, most won’t. If an organism has a trillion cells, only one-trillionth of the mutations will be on the gamete and will be passed on. So there is only one in a trillionth chance that any given mutation in the organism will be passed on. So that means an organism needs to have one trillion babies for the mutation to be passed on. The organism would obviously die before that happens. So mutations can’t cause evolution. And even if a mutation was passed on, most are not beneficial. So this debunks macroevolution, thus debunking his claim that evolution causes complexity. Evolution can’t cause anything when it can’t even happen. 4:22 “The reason we recognize a watch as designed has nothing to do with how complex and purposed it is, but rather because we already know that it is designed.” And we also know the universe was designed. How can you believe something so complex randomly happened by chance? 4:45 “We have zero examples of life being created by a designer” Actually, scientists have cloned animals. That is an example of life being created by a designer. And I’m sure scientists are working towards making life from non-life. This would prove creation because it would prove life needs a designer to be made. However, if we could observe life being made randomly by chance in nature, that would prove the abiogenesis hypotheses. Because it would prove there is no designer needed. And based on that logic, we also have never seen life being made by something that is NOT a designer. We have never seen life being created at all. We’ve never once observed the abiogenesis. But, like the watchmaker analogy says, it is much more logical to conclude that we are designed because of complexity. This guy hasn’t even come close to debunking this yet. Over half way into the video. 4:55 Special Pleading Fallacy, or Self Refuting. He says that God must have had a designer. He clearly doesn’t understand the whole concept of God. According to most religions, God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Something with those qualities does not need a designer; and something with those qualities can cake complex things. So God does not need a designer, or He wouldn’t be God. 5:54 Self-contradicting. “The argument first assumes that a watch is different from nature”. No, the whole point of the argument is that it is comparing nature to a watch. The argument says they are both complex, and therefore both have a designer. What part of that assumes that the watch is different from nature? This guy clearly doesn’t understand the very thing he is arguing against. 6:17 It doesn’t imply a designer. This one made me want to bang my head against the wall. It further proves my point that this guy clearly doesn’t understand the very thing he is arguing against. The whole point of the watchmaker argument is that there must be a designer. So it both implies and directly states that there must be one. Then he says that there must be many creators and not just one. But the watchmaker argument never once claims that there is ONLY ONE designer. There could be multiple designers. I don’t understand how this debunks the argument. 6:52 Ex Nihilo. Finally, an actual good point that this guy makes. He says that a watch is made with preexisting materials, so whoever designed the universe must also have made it from preexisting materials. I don’t really have a rebuttal for this one other than my earlier point that God is omnipotent. So He can do anything, and thus He can create something from nothing. Good job, dude. You made me not have a decent rebuttal for the first time and we are almost at the end of the video. 7:18 Doesn’t Support Theism. Yes it does. A designer = God. How can you not understand this simple fact? He then says that the watchmaker argument only proves a designer, not which one. But the last time I checked, the argument was never trying to prove a specific God. Only that a God exists. This is a dumb argument that I see thrown around a lot by atheists. “Your argument didn’t prove which god is real; therefore it’s not a good argument!” Proving WHICH god is the real god is a whole different subject that requires a completely different discussion. We are simply trying to get to you atheists that a god exists, not which one. Once we prove that obvious fact, THEN we can talk about which one. 7:40 Incompetent design. He then says that God wouldn’t make organisms with vestigial parts, birth defects and pregnancy complications, etc. I’ve also heard this one a lot. “God didn’t do this thing I think He should do. That means God isn’t real!” No, it just means you don’t understand God. He says that God is either not omnipotent or not omnibenevolent. First of all, the “vestigial parts” do have a use. In the illustrations, he uses the human tail bone as an example of a vestigial part. This actually has a lot of uses, like keeping you balanced and being able to move your hips. And for the birth defects, that’s a result of sin. Every bad thing that happens is a result of sin. If we didn’t sin, nothing bad would happen. It’s not God’s fault that bad stuff happens; it’s our fault. 9:20 He gives another false analogy to somehow disprove the watchmaker analogy. The analogy is that a person has a youtube channel and has 300k subs. And another person has a channel, and therefore must have 300k subs. The difference between this and the watchmaker argument is that youtube channels have been proven to have more or less than 300k subs. But nothing that is complex has ever been proven to not be designed. He said there are lots of examples, but the only one he gave was natural selection, which I thoroughly debunked. Still waiting for another example of something complex NOT being designed ;)

6 years later and Rationality Rules DOES have 300 thousand + subscribers 😂 with me being a new one as of today 😁

“I can totally miss the point of an analogy by showing you how other unrelated aspects of the parallel don’t make sense.”

At the time I'm watching this video, Rationality Rules has 302,000 subscribers. Check. Mate.

This video reminded me of a joke my philosophy teacher made when a classmate used the false analogy fallacy. "Since all men have faces, and you mother has a face, then I can conclude that you Mother is a man" I don't have to say that everybody but that kid found that hilarious.

Would it also be valid to say that we only assume the watch had a designer because we have had an experience with watches, or rather we have knowledge of them? If one were to imagine having never seen a watch, and then seeing a carcass of say, a whale (which you have also never seen before) it seems more likely than not that you would assume neither had a designer? I don't consider this a refutation, but more food for thought.

Now, four years later, Rationality rules indeed has almost 300,000 Subscribers!

"Much clever! Such study! So knowledge. Many wow" 😆

9:30 This channel DOES have 300,000 subscribers :)

one debunk on the fine tuning argument would be that although it is true that the chances of a universe allowing for intelligent life are quite low that does not prove that it was created for us. since we are only aware of ourselves and don't know if there are other universes out there we also can't be certain that those universes (if they exist) are able to do the same. essentially if there are limitless or a very large number of universes than our universe may be able to contain life by chance. To Illustrate that let's say we do a lottery with all humans on earth and don't tell anyone that there participating. one of them is gonna win 10 billion dollars but even once he/she gets the money he/she won't know about the world wide lottery. Obviously he/she will be very happy but also confused and will ask where the money came from or who gave it to him/her. the same way he/she will think of it as devine intervension we also think that it would be impossible for our universe to contain intelligent life if it wasn't for a creator. But in reality Chance just rolled the dice very often and after many billions or trillions of universes one was able to contain intelligent life. we wouldn't ask ourselves the question otherwise. Those are a lot of speculations but the finetunning/watchmaker argument was thereby (and has been many times in this video) debunked so the burden of prove remains on the theist side to prove the existence of one or more gods

The watchmaker analogy, is at best a debatable argument for the idea of deism or polytheism, however it does not establish that they exist only the possibility and it doesn't even establish whether or not your God exists

Well done. I hope you don't mind if I use your videos in my classes. I need many tools to develop critical thinking skills.

@rationalityrules

6 жыл бұрын

More than welcome : )

amazing watching this video 6 years later and he is now at 300,000+ subscribers. thank you for staying consistent and i hope you can keep growing your viewerbase and teaching generations to come!

Premise 1: natural selection is random and complex Premise 2: a watch is complex Conclusion: the watch is random

Issues with it: 1. Just because something is complex, doesn't mean it has a concious desinger. 2. Just because we see something as complex, doesn't mean it's actually complex.

Can you do a video compilaiton of all logical fallacies and similars? You explain them so well and its so easy to understand

7:57 can't forget ingrown toenails

Cure for a swollen head.. Golf & watching this. I feel intellectually miniscule & quite inadequate. On the upside, i'm really glad, ecstatic in fact, that your bearing this torch. I cannot get enough of this. well done!

The watchmaker argument also seems to forfeit any point-of-reference for something that was not designed. It’s an argument that unknowingly disproves itself simply by being posed. What I mean is that it acknowledges that the watch stands out from its environment because it has obviously been designed, implying that the environment around it was not designed. But according to the very argument, the environment is a product of intelligent design. So if there’s no clear distinction between what is and is not a product of intelligent design, why pose the question at all?

Complexity is not the reason we recognize something is "designed" or man-made. Here's why: Imagine that you walked out in nature and found a perfectly round ball made out of gold. Now, unlike a watch, the ball of gold is not complex at all. It does not have multiple parts that need to assembled in a correct and precise order. It just is one piece of one type of material carved into an extremely simple geometric form. Yet you would still come into the same conclusion as you would with a watch that it was made by another human being.

@KaichouClips

7 жыл бұрын

There are symmetrical crystals that occur in nature. Fibonacci patterns occur in plants. Perfection, depending on how you define it, either does not require a designer or cannot exist. We recognize something is "designed" mainly because it is something that humans have made, such as a watch or a perfectly round ball made out of gold. The only other way we have of recognizing something designed is by comparing it to the rest of the universe and seeing that it's different and could not have been produced by natural causes. We have no context to place the universe in, nothing else to compare it against, so it's impossible to say whether or not it's designed.

@swinde

7 жыл бұрын

What if you found a perfectly round raindrop, or a perfectly symmetrical six sided snowflake.... Oh wait!

@Eternalnight198

7 жыл бұрын

You're not really getting the point and you're not really making any kind of counter-point.

@swinde

7 жыл бұрын

Eternalnight ... Who are you talking to?

@Eternalnight198

7 жыл бұрын

How about you? Not that the other guy who responded was any different.

I am a Christian and love studying these theological questions. I really enjoyed this video and think it brings up a few fair points. I think the question IS NOT “Does the Teleological argument prove their is God?” But the real question is “Does the Teleological argument prove the LIKELIHOOD of God?” The answer to the second question is undeniably yes. Can we prove beyond a doubt, using scientific observance, that there is a God? No we cannot, simply because we were not there at the beginning of the universe. But the ultimate question with this argument is this: “Is it more likely that creation came into existence through accident or a creator?” For creation to be an accident it would take a ridiculous amount of luck. One slight thing is different and everything falls apart. This is why I come to the conclusion that it is more likely that the universe was created by God, who is all powerful and outside of space and time. Please comment if you have any objections or questions with my logic. Regardless of what you believe I feel like these are healthy things to talk and respectfully debate about.

@brennanfields1380

2 жыл бұрын

You and I are both in agreement that their is no way to prove or disprove either viewpoint on whether or not their is a god. But I would say that you ruling out the possibility that the universe and existence itself is a natural process is a less rational stance than their being a god simply because many of the things that we have been able to observe that we once thought were gods doing have been found to be natural processes. Rain, Stars, and planets were all thought to be the work of gods yet we have observed these being formed in nature. Yes we can’t rule out a god but I would say that stance is less rational. It is also possible that the universe itself could be eternal the same way a god is.

@mantabsekali920

2 жыл бұрын

Why it just 2 possibility ? Maybe the creation is simple in the beginning then it grow and evolve to such complex being.

@cutekoala

2 жыл бұрын

Improbable things sometimes happen There may be trillions of universes so that would bring the unlikelihood right down. The unlikelihood of an invisible god is much greater than the unlikelihood of the universe I can say unicorns cause hurricanes but it's not believable unless I produce evidence of unicorns. We can't invent beings just to win an argument or make ourselves feel better.

@BenjaminNeville

2 жыл бұрын

I'm with you on this one. There really is no way to scientifically prove there is or is not a God. I would say however there are other ways not scientific ones, to prove at least to yourself that there is one, and then after that decision on your part most everything else is simply evidence that he exists. I dislike this video because instead of talking mainly about supposed fallacies in the analogy it's mostly just arguments and theories purported as cold hard facts that when taken all together in the end not only prove that the watchmaker analogy is false or at least not useful but also to prove the non existence of God, which is not what the video is stated to be. Especially the last supposed argument about the incompetent designer which has nothing to do with the actual analogy and more on his own belief of what and who God is and why his theory of who God is and the experience which we call life are incompatible. So did not appreciate that . But I really like your response, thanks!

@XiagraBalls

Жыл бұрын

The sole reason you're a Christian is nominative determinism. 😄

A watch is complex. A watch can be worn on my wrist or carried in my pocket. The universe is complex. Therefore I can wear the universe on my wrist or carry it in my pocket. Fuckin' cool! I always wanted to do that!

“The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.” - Richard Dawkins

"So Knowledge", "Many wow", "Such study", and "Much clever"? What the heck do those things mean, and why are they in the four corners of the watch graphic?

@cerberaodollam

6 жыл бұрын

knowyourmeme.com/memes/doge

@atheistontheroad4545

6 жыл бұрын

Thanks, but I still don't get it. I guess I'm too old :(

@coffeech.1838

6 жыл бұрын

Atheist In Louisiana lmao

Here's another demonstration that complexity doesn't require a designer: There's this game called Mikado ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikado_(game) ). Essentially, you throw down a pile of sticks, and then have to dismantle it stick by stick without getting the rest to move. Usually, the heap created is quite complex; but it isn't designed. On the other hand, suppose you design a way to store the sticks. Usually, what you design will be much less complex (but very regular), and taking up sticks without moving the rest will be much easier. There's a related counter argument to the argument from the second law of thermodynamics (the entropy thing), that demonstrates that entropy isn't the same as disorder. Suppose you put two liquids in a container, keeping them carefully separated in two layers. That's an simple, ordered, low-entropy state. Then you start mixing them. You get a very complex, high-entropy state, with lots of filaments and separated droplets and stuff. And then, after a while, you get a homogeneous mixture: again simple and ordered, but high-entropy. Thus, going from low to high entropy actually causes (and then later removes again) complexity. And thus, life is what we should expect someplace in the middle between the big bang (simple, ordered, low entropy) and the heat death (simple, ordered, low entropy).

@user-fp6pi6wi5l

5 жыл бұрын

Maybe you meant high entropy in the end?

I'm an atheist, but this is one concept that I still am hung up on: not "how did life come to be?" but "how was it in the first place that the universe came to exist in such a way that it has 118+ elements that can interact in complex ways to produce molecules which, under the right conditions, can self-arrange into increasingly complex self-replicating "machines?" I don't propose to know, but, to me, certain formulations of teleological arguments are essentially the strongest case for some sort of potential deism. Thoughts?

Okay so I know that people are always complaining that people stretch videos to 10 minutes, but you hit 9:43, you shouldve just added another 17 seconds, you deserve the attention!

It shocks me how this argument is even taken seriously in the first place. Any person with an ounce of rationality can immediately detect the absurdity of this argument.

Reading Richard Dawkins' book "The Blind Watchmaker" now. Brilliant. I recommend it.

Instead of saying complexity requires a designer, it should be complexity is a sign of intelligence.

I think W. Paley’s argument should be updated. A modern version of his argument: complex things with a PURPOSE suggests a designer

lol, at the time of viewing, this channel has 300k subs.

The watchmaker argument, if true and logical. You were not going to recognize or notice that there is a watch in the first place.

@blasecorrea8350

6 жыл бұрын

Henry Dalcke how do you know it transcends the laws of nature? Do you know every single law of nature? Do you have examples of “complexities” not made of reorganized matter? How do you measure complexity? Can complexity not exist in nature or be caused by natural process? Can you prove your obvious black and white fallacious argument that if it is not “natural” (whatever that classifies) it is therefore created by a designer? Why is the designer free from necessary designing? Why is he designing the universe? The fact that you left all of that in the air completely takes any credibility from anything you said and shows that your reasoning hinges on your want for there to be a creator. No one can justify the believe in a god with logic because it requires faith- the suspension of logic and reasoning. There’s a reason the Bible says to “believe” in god instead of prove his existence, people have kind of been trying for millennia long before even Christianity was invented.

@polite_as_fuck

6 жыл бұрын

Henry Dalcke - Ok, but I fail to see how the universe or the earth transcends the laws of nature, which is precisely what the watchmaker argument is based on. No amount of semantics changes the central point of the argument.

The universe is 10^18 seconds old, and there are 10^82 atoms in the universe. If you multiply these two numbers together, it's still FAR smaller than the denominator of the probability of typing Hamlet randomly, which is over 10^130,000 possibilities. I don't know if the universe can make a watch randomly, but it DARN sure isn't able to make Hamlet randomly, unless it gets many, many orders of magnitude older.

Thank you, this is truly a powerful, clear and organized presentation. Loved it!

We need more pirates!

@christopherparks4342

6 жыл бұрын

Jens K my college mascot was a pirate, does that count?

@JensHove

6 жыл бұрын

It ABSOLUTELY does!

@octemberfury

6 жыл бұрын

It could work. If we ruin civilization to such a point that piracy becomes a viable way of life again, there probably won't be many people left, and they won't be using many resources, so the CO2 levels would probably drop quite a bit, thus cooling the planet.

I can only help with one subscription. But i hope your channel reaches 300k soon.

Why oh why did my designer put my entertainment center right next to the waste disposal? I've got waste materials all over my odour sensor now.

I liked how on the Atheist Experience they said "we know design by contrasting it with nature. In the Creationist view you see a watch on a beach of watches next to an ocean of watches. How can a watch stand out as designed if it's all designed?"

Your explanations are always logical. Keep the rationality coming.

I can accept the watch argument...but what is the proof that God was the creator of that watch/universe? If I say John created the watch...then I will have to prove that it was John who did it and not Jack. Therefore...we need to prove that God exists first and he created the universe and it wasn't because of the big bang or evolution.

@chriscopeland1455

6 жыл бұрын

you would need to read and apply the bible's knowledge for instance the bible written 70ad said the earth was as of a sphere and hung upon nothing yet man did not believe this we thought it was flat until Columbus could be weird coincidence your choice here

@Miyakolover

6 жыл бұрын

The bible says the earth was a "circle", not a "Sphere". A circle is flat.

@chriscopeland1455

6 жыл бұрын

we have to look at the Aramaic translation we English speaking folk have mistranslated the word try a NAS (new American standard bible) its the most accurate translation we have to the actual scripts we have from 70ad

@Miyakolover

6 жыл бұрын

Yeah, keep apologizing for your Bible with dumb excuses. I'm not gonna bother with you.

@Jim-de4dj

6 жыл бұрын

Chris copeland Not true! A Greek thinker and mathematician, Eratosthenes, managed to measure the Earth's circumference way before the Bible was even thought of. He discovered that at noon in one Egyptian city, the Sun was directly overhead, whereas in a different city the Sun did not rise quite so high. Eratosthenes knew the distance between the two cities, measured how high in the sky the Sun rose to in each at the same time, then did some trigonometry. His method was crude, but his answer was in the right ballpark. Pretty sure the writers of the Bible would know this, so your point is invalid or simply a lie?

The reason I'd think a watch on the side of the road is man-made is that I have only ever seen man-made watches, not because it is complex.

"Hey, somebody dropped their watch", was his only response.

Great takedown... probably the definitive statement on this. Good job!

Awesome well done

I’m glad I found this. I just run into a different wording of the watchmaker argument and I was kind of stumped. And I’m tired, so I think if I keep running into these arguments when I’m this tired, I’m more likely to convert for no reason. So in a nutshell, I’m too lazy and tired to debunk an argument I’ve heard before on my own so I’m looking to you to debunk it for me, thanks

This video is like Stephen dropping a toddler with a barrage of artilleries. The toddler is the watchmaker argument, and the artilleries are the fallacies the argument commits.

Well I mean hey it’s almost at 300k...

@pavel9652

3 жыл бұрын

Armoured Skeptic has almost 500k though ;)

Other than the ornate decorations on some watch faces and cases, everything within that watch is precisely made and must be there in its exact form for the watch either to function or at least to function correctly. Damage or remove any gear, cog, ratchet or spring and you have a watch which no longer functions. That is a hallmark of an intelligent design. No junk or redundancy, unless intended for a safety backup, is included. Now, damage or remove any gene in the human genome. The chances are extremely high that there will be absolutely no change in the organism whatsoever because a majority of our DNA is non-coding. The watchmaker argument is a far far superior argument against there being an intelligent designer of the universe and all life than for it. This typical of the cognitive dissonance prevalent in religious fundamentalism. They throw out what they feel are their best arguments for their omnipotent creator and when a rationalist subjects those argument to critical inspection, their argument actually works far better against there being a creator. When the Air Force needs a new fighter plane, they send out a request for proposals and prototypes. There is not a single thing in the specs that the military sends out saying what the proposed plane has to look like. The request specifies parameters of performance, range, maintenance, safety and physical dimension constraints (particularly for naval aircraft that have to operate in confined and fixed spaces of a carrier). The proposing contractor has a free-hand within those constraints to design whatever approach to the aircraft they feel will meet, or exceed, those specs. The reason why aircraft built for a specific purpose look similar is that almost 100% of the shape and components on aircraft are designed to specifically perform the required functional parameters in the proposal request. Designers don't decide to just throw in some extra fins because the look cool or leave non functional systems that were considered for inclusion early in the design process but later abandoned. Purpose designed complex mechanisms do not include artifacts from earlier designs which ultimately serve no purpose on the final design yet living organisms, and indeed the universe include many outmoded or non-functional features (think of brown-dwarf stars that never achieve the fusion required to be a life-giving star because of insufficient mass)

@ExtantFrodo2

5 жыл бұрын

Excellent post!

Omnibenevolence is impossible. Thanos thinks killing half of the universe is good but the avengers think that letting everything be as is, is good. So does god kill half of universe but also doesn't kill half the universe?

Watching this in 2021. Not far away from the 300k Subs brother. Keep on. Cheers.