Kurze: Horus asks you to join us or stay on the far side of the galaxy. He also wants you to find the buttfor. Lion: … What is a buttfor? Kurze: (maniacal laughter)

@ryansauchuk7290

2 жыл бұрын

Lion: I assume Horus will also want our supplies of Ligma?

@theblueneko677

2 жыл бұрын

A well deserved like

@attemptedunkindness3632

2 жыл бұрын

Curze: Then you're going to love Imagine Dragging my ballsack across your face! Lion: Were... you about to ask me if I enjoy the band 'Imagine Dragons'? Curze: ...Sometimes, I hate that I can see the future. Lion: Its cool, sometimes I hate you.

@henryviiifake8244

2 жыл бұрын

@@ryansauchuk7290 Kurze: Touché

@____________838

2 жыл бұрын

@@ryansauchuk7290 I’m not sure the Lion had enough savoir faire to be able to retort against something so… Random.

Curze "Horus has a message for you" Lion "well, whats the message? " Curze " He wants to know if you've seen Gavin?"

Speaking of the Lion, everytime I am remembering the scene when the Dark Angels arrive at Perdita Ultima to retrieve the tuchul... ...this strange machine thingy, and find Iron Hands and Typhus´ Death Guard in bitter fighting. His call to action: Everyone stand down immedeatly and attend to a meeting aboard....or get bombed to hell. Both sides follow his "invitation" and respect his verdict. This was one of the moments which defined his status and how he is seen by Astartes from other legions. Especially if you remember Typhus kinda challenges Mortarion (his own primarch) more often than not. ;o)

@jamesespinosa690

2 жыл бұрын

Was it Iron Warriors or Iron Hands??

@SebsterGefunden

2 жыл бұрын

@@jamesespinosa690 Iron Hands

@bbricks5843

2 жыл бұрын

@@jamesespinosa690 Iron Hands is correct ;) I fixed it above

@MongoBongo271

2 жыл бұрын

What book is this? I googled and couldn't find it.

@SebsterGefunden

2 жыл бұрын

@@MongoBongo271 It's a short Story called "The Lion", available as stand alone or in "The Primarchs: Book 20" according to the BL-Website

Everyone has something about the mystery that is the Lion of Caliban. You do not make or create the biggest space marine legions before the commencement of the rangdan xenocides if you are a fool. And they where the biggest. Sacrificing 50,000 astartes to save the entire Northern Imperium. If the Lion is as capable in personal combat as he is a strategic genius. Then there is no doubt who the most dangerous one was. A quote by Malcador the Hero. " He paces around the room. Allways watching, planning, alike a apex predator. He unnerves even his brothers.."

Horus got the title, the Lion got the weapons. I think we know who the emperor trusted more.

@mitchelarchbold9219

2 жыл бұрын

But that's for space wolves this is dark angles we're talking about here completely different legions

@bobakrabii6220

2 жыл бұрын

@Space Vatnik yea the reason he gave them to the Lion is because he won’t hesitate m. If it was the Lion who stabbed Horus with the spear, he would have kept stabbing until he was a bloody pool on the floor and the Heresy would have been over.

@attemptedunkindness3632

2 жыл бұрын

@Space Vatnik Russ did not like that spear because he had a dream that promised him he would die while wielding it. His heart was not only into it, his heart was the absolute desire to kill Horus up to suicide, moreso than even Corax; who not only was the first Primarch to hate Horus long before the heresy, but had about 88,000 more reasons to hate Horus than Russ ever could. Didn't matter, Russ got into his own head and self-sabotaged. Nobody, not even the Emperor, does well against warp-infused Horus when they start thinking that way. You accidentally enter Horus's backyard.

@themachine7534

2 жыл бұрын

Big e knew whoever he named warmaster would rise against him so he chose horus as he was the one he raised the most in a hope that it might not be woven into fate that the warmaster would rebel .

@HammarPwnsYourFace

2 жыл бұрын

@@themachine7534 I like this theory

"Stay loyal." - Hours (to the Lion)

@sithar

2 жыл бұрын

Actually pretty likely, Horus probably wanted to personally beat him in the battlefield.

@dathanmaney7476

2 жыл бұрын

@@sithar bro fr fr that's what I was thinking. Like a challenge.

@Dreadbringer

2 жыл бұрын

Most probable he said stay neutral, horus feared the first and his legión, thats why he sent them away and kept them occupied

Horus: "I'll give you a hundred bucks to fuck off."

The lion, the Kahn, & Alpharious were the most secretive. I always felt The Lion knew more about Alpharious than he let on. To be secretive you must also know many secrets. Love that The Khan was such an unknown factor during his time away; for him to show up and be loyal and wreck shit up. I feel The Lion trades with Pertarbo to maybe sway him back to the emperor, ultimately falling.

@jamesespinosa690

2 жыл бұрын

The Khan wasn't really secretive though. No one bothered to investigate what he was really about. Granted, it was hard to track them down, but that just means you have to put some work in. Doesn't mean he was keeping secrets.

@sergio9669

2 жыл бұрын

I always felt while alpharius did pull a fast one on the lion just for shits and giggles when he and a squad of alpha legionairres visited the lion (before alpharius is officially discovered). The lion and his legion by the sheer scale of layerd and interwined ritual secrets of the first legion to which only the lion understood the full scale, this served the 1st legion as being the true hard counter to the 20th legion who while multilayered in espionage were compartmentalised in terms of intelligence to the point even the primarch leaders would not know everything as they interchanged roles, leaving the 20th effective as independent smaller forces or large scale forces but against the 1st legion they would probably fall short when it came to trying to infiltrate the labrynith the lion wrought

@MrFallenone

2 жыл бұрын

The Lion thought Perturabo was going to Istvaan in suppors of the retribution fleet. He had no idea Perty had turned traitor.

@MrFallenone

2 жыл бұрын

@@sergio9669 The 1st legion infiltrating the wolves during their fight for survival against the alpha legion was excelent showcase of how adept the 1st is at being the multipurpose legion. The only problem was the Angel failed the smell test and was discovered because of that. The book keeps the reader thinking its an Alpha legion operative all the time only to reveal its a 1st legion scout figuring out who the angels should help. Who is the traitor in that battle. Only after confirming with his buddy who infiltrated the Alpha legion flagship do the DA swoop in with a massive fortress and anahilate the Alpha legion fleet thats hunting the Wolves.

@Johndoe102893

2 жыл бұрын

@@sergio9669 I love that in Alpharius' primarch book it's implied that Lion may have known it was him but said nothing. Their whole dynamic as similar but opposite is pretty cool since they're the first and last legions.

I mean I think we have to consider the option that Curze was simply lying about Horus having a message. Why would Horus care? If he sent the Night Lords to stop the Dark Angels, why bother with a message when a hostile Legion is a full speech? Curze could just be trying to fuck with the Lion, show that Horus trusts him over the Lion, show that the Night Lords were more valuable to Horus than the Dark Angels, or just trying to distract the Lion for a split second before the attack. Remember we're talking about Konrad Curze, the insane multiple personalities disordered man who frequently had hallucinations, and couldn't tell the difference between the past, present and future and often forgot where he was, how he got there, and what he was doing.

@boxy2k8

2 жыл бұрын

Horus knew full well the Lion would not turn, just as Sanguinius wouldn't. He didn't even try with the First, all he could do is stall them

@MrJoneschase

2 жыл бұрын

Kurze doesn’t really do lies. He’s all about terror tactics but even in his books he’s always honest and well crazy but pretty straightforwardly honest.

@rubengerritsen6868

2 жыл бұрын

I don't think you understand what Curze Is supposed to be, he doesn't really lie that's one of his traits

@AngelWolf12

2 жыл бұрын

@@rubengerritsen6868 Curze lied all the time, at least according to the Night Lords. Sahaal said Curze was as dishonest as he was violent, Guilliman and the Lion pointed out that Curze predicting events that didn't happen wasn't foresight, it was simply lying. And as far as memories go, Curze struggled with black outs, and often couldn't tell past/present/future apart, didn't know who was still alive, where he was, how he go there or what he was doing. Its entirely possible Curze thought Horus gave him a message for the Lion, and equally as possible he was simply lying because he had foreseen it would damage the Lion.

@bequakynskagroupie3751

2 жыл бұрын

Lmao trueisms

Curze said, "Oo-ee-oo-ah-ah-ting-tang-walla-walla-bing-bang."

The Primarchs novel explains it maybe. The Emperor had an Executioner in the form of Russ, but the Lion was his Destroyer, who would shirk no task however onerous in the completion of the Imperium.

Wether Lion was the best general or not, the Dark Angels had more tools than any other legion. How would Horus go in a campaign 1 on 1 vs lion? Dark Angels were spoilt for weapons, a fleet of Gloriana warships, the unpredictable “Men of Iron,” and the flexibility of the wings. I think the Emperor wanted the Lion and the Dark Angels to be that final most destructive weapon, that could be deployed on the worst threats.

@LewisB3217

2 жыл бұрын

I think Horus would win eventually, especially if it came to battle and he had the four marks, but pre all that, maybe the Lion

@colthuhn2523

2 жыл бұрын

I'd dispute that's it's entirely possible that the Alpha Legion surpassed any other Legions supplies. Indeed it's often mentioned and teased.

@davesobani9565

2 жыл бұрын

Men of Iron!? Source please.

@joshuablakeney2983

2 жыл бұрын

@@davesobani9565 Lion El'Johnson: Lord of The First. They weren't exactly men of iron but bastardized versions of them created on Terra and deployed in the Ironwing of the dark angels

@Instar_nine

2 жыл бұрын

They did but had alot of ships astartes destroyed fighting the rangdan They lost 60, 000 astartes

Horus loved being Horus, he admired some of his brothers, but he did not envy any. He was the first in all, after all. My humble opinion is built upon two factors. First of all Horus knew the only real option was to be frank with his brother. Any other offer or argument would`ve insulted the Lions pride. Second of all Horus needed to confront the subject of the Warp, after all, that is the crux of the matter. That being said, the message must have been an appeal to the Lions honor mirroring the fable of the knight that serves a corrupt Lord, and following that, Horus could make an argument around the fact that the title of Warmaster is/was meaningless and that he is now in league with Lords that have rewarded him with real power and vision, not hollow titles and lies. To this the Lion of course replies with " Loyalty is it`s own reward " both implying that the title of Warmaster was meaningless and that Horus was in the end only a thug from the gutters of Cthonia.

@alejandropablocarbonellsan409

2 жыл бұрын

The first was alpharius.)

@florinpurice415

2 жыл бұрын

It's kinda on the nose, when your secret brother is called Omegon ;) (nicely put)

I think that there is a moment when Curze is talking to the Lion where he is genuinely trying to warn him about his future divided Legion and suspicious reputation. But, as with all prophecies, it was impossible to get it across as a warning to the one who needed it, in a way he could make use of the information. It was also pretty much drowned in a sea of madness. I will always feel sorry for that.

I don't think Horus could have beaten a tag team of Wolf and Lion or Angel and Lion.

@docvaliant721

2 жыл бұрын

@Space Vatnik way to suck out the fun from the room butter milk Bob.

@trivunkonjik7413

2 жыл бұрын

@Space Vatnik ofcourse angel wasnt a match, the hours was on roids and lion had been in a battle for days.

@henryviiifake8244

2 жыл бұрын

@Space Vatnik Tbh Russ actually had the upper hand vs Horus but *fumbled the galactic bag* like a newborn puppy when it mattered most. He could've literally stopped him before he became powerful enough to kill Sanguinius. 🤷‍♂️

@licensed_beheader

2 жыл бұрын

@Space Vatnik It probably has something to do with the fact sanguinius had taken a lot of damage from solo defending the eternity gate from demons and heretics for weeks had fought the greatest bloodthirster twice and a keeper of secrets and possibly demon angron while horus was soaking in chaos jizz.

@djii7837

2 жыл бұрын

@WhiteTowerGuard Honestly The Lion probably would have clapped Horus's cheeks solo. Russ had Horus beat before he fucked it up, The Lion had Russ beat almost immediately in their duel while they still had weapons, so it stands to reason he would have beaten Horus pretty handily and would not have hesitated to end his traitorous brother.

"You never had the makings of a Varsity Warmaster, now go grab me some Gabagool."

"Yo, Lion, you mind holding up a bit, before getting to Terra? Thanks. Also thanks for giving those siege machines to Perturabo, you're great, mate!"

@Jesseleeg

2 жыл бұрын

More Dark Angels Made it to the seige than Ultramarines or Spacewolves.

@AdamMichalMarkowski

2 жыл бұрын

@@Jesseleeg Can't hear you over the sound of Lion parking his fleet and waiting

@jodi1761

2 жыл бұрын

@@Jesseleeg No thanks to Jonson though...

It was an appeal to get Lion to "just" stay neutral, followed by Horus needing his own "Warmaster" once he sat on the golden throne, and he was offering that to Jonson. For all of the Lion's faults, he was absolutely 120% loyal to his father, and unknown possibly to Horus, was the most innate anti-chaos primarch of all of them! Chaos simply has no pull with him, no chance of temptation, etc.

I like to think Horus’ message was an insult, or at least a demand of fealty that would infuriate The Lion, knowing that The Lion would then make a b-line to attack the traitors bringing all his forces with him, leaving large sections of the Eastern Fringe undefended and most likely getting caught in the Ruinstorm. Horus knew The Lion would never swear allegiance to him, but that he was (comparatively) easy to antagonise/bait as evidenced by his relationship with Russ so he might as well lure him away from the Shadow Crusade and into the Ruinstorm. It would also be thematic for the Dark Angels who in the 41st Millennium are more than willing to abandon active war-zones to pursue their own vendettas (ie: The Fallen)

@Kill3rballoon

2 жыл бұрын

It would also explain why Curze was happy to deliver the message, antagonising people is his bread and butter (cuz he’s a dick, lol)

@michaelgeorge4334

2 жыл бұрын

I like this response, explains why someone like the sneering Kurze would be sent as the envoy.

What I know of Lion El'Jonson 🦁 💛 is that he had to defend himself in wild warp tanted forests of caliban, alone 😔 and no idea of how survive other than hunt than become the hunted. When he meet Luther it Forge him from a beast to a man then a literally weapon, a become of the sword. Which suits him and his father the emperor of mankind, plus his the emperor's exterminator. But is sad that the bond with his brothers wasn't very good, close or loving 😞. But that's one the reason why I think he kind of trys to love, bond and trust them. "Loyalty is it's own reward 🌄🦁💛". God emperor bless you wolf lord rho another great video, and one with one if not only my favorite primarch thank you 😊 ❤.

@jamescarter8693

2 жыл бұрын

Hell yeah like that

@ttgamefinder3640

2 жыл бұрын

dark angels fan: *Lion sob story* Night lords fans: "hold my beer"

@licensed_beheader

2 жыл бұрын

I think his bond not being good with his bros somehow worked well for him . When his brothers sold their souls to devils they didn't bother trying to drag him down with him coz they thought he was disliked them.

One important thing to remember was when Horus was dying and talking to the remembrancer he specifically said "let me tell you the truth about the Lion" or something like that. I am surprised Rho didn't factor that conversation into this analysis. Love the channel Rho keep up the solid work.

@tonypaulik2205

2 жыл бұрын

I believe those passages are in False Gods

@flaviomonteiro1414

2 жыл бұрын

@@tonypaulik2205 I do believe they are...

@mio87

2 жыл бұрын

Oh, gonna buy that book then

Horus just seams like he held the Lion and Sanguinius as his greatest rivals. This is seen in the war records of Horus vs the Lion and Sanguinius on Murder and Horus struggling to keep up with the Blood Angels and their devastating assault. Edit: As far as most powerful legion the 1st Dark Angels where hands down the strongest. They where the largest till the 2nd Rangdan Xenocide, had two most Gloriana class ships and the only one with DAOT gear. Plus they where unmatched in tactics and the enemies they beat.

@kelman727

2 жыл бұрын

Yet their victories lagged behind those of Horus.

@eichler721

2 жыл бұрын

@@kelman727 Horus was found atleast 20 years before either the Lion and Sanguinius and had a massive headstart and Sanguinius had to rebuild his entire legion when he got it before crusading and the Lion was catching him dispite that and being given the hardest enemies. Name a stronger enemy then the Rangdan Xenocide where the Lion was in charge? You can't as they where the strongest and only the Ullanor empire of the Orks was as strong and Horus had 6 other Legions and the Emperor helping him beat that empire to Lion and his 3 ve the Rangdan.

@Mr.Monacle

2 жыл бұрын

@@eichler721 Notably, the Lion didn't even lag behind, according to the Lion's novel, because of the sheer number of hidden conquests of the 1st, he actually had *more* victories than Horus.

@eichler721

2 жыл бұрын

@@Mr.Monacle yes and given things like the Rangdan Xenocide and such taking alot of his time he would have even been farther ahead.

"Lion, you're okay, don't go to school tomorrow. -H"

That thumbnail certainly captures the essence of Horus after his "indiscretions" took hold. Mad and bad is always scary.

Another spot on highlight to my Day. Praise be to The Emperor! And Of course to Rho my Fellow Brother in Arms. Always a pleasure to listen to your posts My friend! Hope you have a GREAT Week!

He may of just said thanks for the big guns he gave to Perturabo.

The idea that the Lion would have remained neutral sounds like some Astelan-type heresy to me.

@MrTolgarion

2 жыл бұрын

it was per the author, astelan hated the lion and wanted other DA to fall as well.

"I know you like Space Elves."

Horus' message to him: "Your helmet looks funny. Dad designed it that way. Come with me for vengeance."

Going off Roman tradition. The Commander of the First Legion was the most senior Officer in The Roman Military and was a great honor

@jodi1761

2 жыл бұрын

This is not correct, lol Maybe you're thinking of "the first spear"?

Night Haunter was the Ultimate loyalist, he chose to die for The Emperor knowing how would it be, plus there is possibility that NH changed future couse he saw the worst futures so he chose the least awful. Papa Smurf is now in charge.

@ruinerblodsinn6648

2 жыл бұрын

NH was the ultimate tragic fool. He and Angron are the biggest marks of shame on the Emperors' resumé. Even more than Magnus.

@samwrai

2 жыл бұрын

@@ruinerblodsinn6648 even more because Magnus did nothing wrong. Jk.

@ruinerblodsinn6648

2 жыл бұрын

@@samwrai by the Emperor...

@Mr.Monacle

2 жыл бұрын

@@ruinerblodsinn6648 Eh, Angron isn't even a mark of shame on the Emperor's resume. If anything, it should be considered a point of pride that he was able to function, with the Butcher's Nails being implanted, at all. Like Angron is alone in all the traitors in that he legitimately didn't get a choice but to be the way he was. Even the NH could have been someone else according to Kurze''s book.

@EmperorNortonII

2 жыл бұрын

@@ruinerblodsinn6648 I don't think so. He was right in the end, after all. The Imperium in 40k isn't that far from something Konrad would have devised.

“Wolves are the best and Big E loves his kids” - Rho guessing any unknown Primarch conversation

I think it would’ve been some sort of misdirection. Maybe something about Guilliman - Roboute does have a thing for building empires & Horus would know Lorgar’s plan to hobble the Ultramarines.

Curze: *Unzips head* I am Alpharius. o.- Lion: *Storms out.* >. A.G.

Maybe Horus sent a cryptic warning about Caliban's destruction and Luther's betrayal

" Rent crocodile dundee "🤣

I think another option would have been that Horus offered the Lion the opportunity to be his Warmaster either in the Heresy or following it’s success.

Horus knew, Gilliman was his real threat but that he had to stall the Lion and Russ, he had to deal with the Blood Angel directly. If those 4 came together, he would not have a chance.

"don't stick tubes up your nose, brother"

Another interesting question is why have Conrad be the messenger. Horus knows that others don’t trust or believe Conrad

THAT THUMBNAIL BE LOOKIN LIKE FankenBerry

I don't think Horus would have requested neutrality from the Lion, it's basically admitting to the Lion that the rebellion can be stopped so long as he stays loyal

"not in that way". You got me! lol

I forget which book I read this parsing: something along the lines of El'Jonson's perceptions on his father's intentions behind purposely turning his brothers against each other and his place in that conflict being to promote stalemate, to minimize damage.

IMHO the Lion wasn't chosen even though he was the superior strategist because the Emperor wanted Horus who had superior force of Will/Charisma. Horus more than likely felt that his charisma was the lynch pin to keep the Legions working together and forward in the Great Crusade. So assuming that was the key he would've thought Sanguinius would've fit the title as well. BUT, I believe the reason the Emperor chose Horus and his Charisma was because he needed that charisma and the pride it entails to be used by the Chaos powers to turn Horus and the Legions against each other. Hopefully killing each other off while he and his Custodes purge the survivors. Just like he attempted to do with the Thunder Warriors back on Terra after the Unification Wars. The problem occurred when Cegorach (the Eldar Trickster God switched where some Primarchs went to after they were scattered from Terra. Cegorach needed a particular Primarch for his own agenda in the future. This also explains why the Emperor did some unusual actions to some Primarchs and not others. Also why he was surprised at some of their betrayals and not by others. Again, I've heard pieces of this theory in a few different places and it seems to fit and connect the disjointed narrative nicely IMHO.

@Mr.Monacle

2 жыл бұрын

I believe the Emperor flat-out tells the Lion that he wasn't made Warmaster because he didn't *need* to be in the Lion's book. Horus was brilliant, but he was arrogant and needed his ego stroked constantly; in other words, the Lion had no use for such a title, Horus on the other hand, would have sulked like a petulant child had he not been given it.

@kelman727

2 жыл бұрын

Well that was crap.

@robertcrawford4748

2 жыл бұрын

@@kelman727 which part? If you have any insight on lore that disproves it I would genuinely like to know it so I can refine, adjust or change that theory.

@TheBanditoLad

2 жыл бұрын

The emperor was suprised that Fulgrim and Magnus turned traitor, and was suprised that Khan and (50/50 chance) the lion stayed loyal.

@jodi1761

2 жыл бұрын

@@robertcrawford4748 Well, Horus was chosen coz he was the greatest. Basically every book in the series starts with this info. I realize that Dark Angels are very popular and contribute a great deal to GW sales, even when the fans have had to wait forever for their 30k stuff, so it only makes sense to build them up as the best of the best. The only thing is... they aren't. According to lore no other legion can match the Luna Wolves and Horus is head and shoulders above his bros. More over, EoM didn't plan on having the Primarchs scattered, so whatever the Trickster managed to do, did not mess up EoM's plan, it was already messed up. Jonson has been described very differently throughout the HH series. The earlier version(s) have him being quite vain and self centered... what's to say that EoM's words regarding Warmaster weren't meant to sooth Jonson's ego? After all, Jonson very much wanted to be Warmaster himself.

I maybe way off here but if I wanted to convince my biggest rival to join me and I knew that my rival fears nothing, the last person I'd send would be Conrad Curze

The message was "I sent the least of my brothers and he kept you locked up for three years, SUCKER"

Horus wouldn't have tried to win The Lion over to his side, it wouldn't have worked. Horus wouldn't have warned him about Caliban or being seen as a traitor (like Curze implied) as The Lion would not flinch. Horus would however play him for the beast he is, he told him about Guilliman building an Empire. Horus' words pointed the Lion to Maccrage

Next time you say this is the Lion like 15 times make sure you have a picture of the line on the screen Conrad

I can’t help immediately thinking of Lionel Richie whenever I hear the Lion mentioned. I hate intrusive thoughts.

@waynegoddard4065

2 жыл бұрын

Here's one. Use toenail clippers on your teeth next time your having breakfast.

Why does that thumbnail make Horus look like a memelord to me...

Probably Horus would have used Caliban as leverage to have the Lion on his side, warning of Luther betrayal in case the Lion would have remained loyal. Loyalty is the only reward say also that the Lion is loyal to the emperor only, and if this mean the death of Caliban, the Lion would have no problem to sacrifice his adopted homeworld. In the Emperor mind, the Wolf is the executioner and the Lion the exterminator. These two legions could never been amongst the traitor legions, wathever Horus tried to have Lion on board, would end in failure.

I honestly don't believe any idea that the traitors could of come up with would have worked. And Horus was smart enough to realize that. But it would be nice to hear what schemes they spitballed for the Lion. Could always use a good laugh.

When I read that story, I thought it was just a gamble by Curze to have something on record, to bring about the doubt that is prevalent within 40k about the Lion's actions. Curze knew about this thanks to his precognition, and hey maybe he thought he could be the architect.

"Here, kitty kitty..."

Horus wants you to know that they’ve been looking to talk to you about your car’s extended warranty…

How much, if at all, can we trust the word of Curze? Not just in whatever he said to the Lion but also it was Horus who put him up to it. If Horus had a message to give Lion then why not send it over a vox or an astropath? With Konrad Curze involved I find it suspicious.

@Dreadbringer

2 жыл бұрын

Curzed wanted to talk with a brother he respected, in a very Messy way but thats madness to you

Heres what i think the message was... "go to shlotzki's, get me a double corned beef reuben on marble sourdough"

Before the Primarchs got wished away from the Emperor, the Emperors plan was for the Lion to be the Warmaster. The Lion and Horus know this, hence why the Lion gave Peturabo the Sige Engines, so he could reclaim his birth right. Because they got scattered, the Emperor had to change his plans and made his first found son Horus the Warmaster because he was the next best choice and the Emperor could tutor him to be the Warmaster.

@henryviiifake8244

2 жыл бұрын

The Emperor decided Horus would be Warmaster after almost all the Primarchs were found. He could have still made El Johnson the Warmaster if he actually wanted to. There was nothing stopping him from tutoring the Lion. So what changed?

@MrFallenone

2 жыл бұрын

Had the Lion been found among the first 5 there would be no question he would have been made the Warmaster.

@Mr.Monacle

2 жыл бұрын

@@MrFallenone Honestly? I don't think he would have, even then. The Lion had no use for such petty things as titles. If they had all been raised together, and raised properly, then I would say the Lion was *definitely* supposed to be the Warmaster. Honestly, I'm unsure what role Horus would have served originally; he's charismatic sure, but not nearly as charismatic as either Lorgar or Sanguineous. His understanding of warfare is immense, but not nearly as immense as either the Lion or the Gorgon (both by Horus's own admission). He's a great duelist, but he isn't nearly as great as Russ or Angron. His understanding of logistics is fantastic, but not nearly as fantastic as Guilliman. We're told he's a brilliant architect, but not nearly so brilliant as Dorn or Perturabo. We're told he's strong, but not nearly as strong as Vulkan. He's not as good at infiltration as Alpharius, not as good at stealth tactics as Corax or the Night Haunter, and not as good at hit and run tactics as the Khan, and he doesn't have the endurance of Mortarian, or the psychic might of Magnus. Indeed, it almost feels as though Horus Lupercal's specialization was in *generalization.* Perhaps the point of him, ironically, is to be the second or third best at everything so that he could provide aid on any field of battle? Maybe, the Lunar Wolves were a legion created to be able to competently aid anywhere they were needed, basically, a Legion whose whole point was to play second fiddle to another legion and no matter that legions specialty, to be able to play second fiddle competently without getting in the way?

@mio87

2 жыл бұрын

I think Horus was always been created to be warmaster or something like that. Kind a politician to his brothers. Many think Lion was create to be general or warmaster and he maybe was. But I personally think Lions role was to know Emperors darkest secrets. That some Primarchs cannot bear with them. Also why he is kind of scholar like Magnus but he keep everthing for himself. That why DA and Lion is so secretive. That why Lion regrets some actions after have capture Curze to Sang and Rob. Because sometimes he need tell these secrets. That is both Lion/DA strength and weakness. And I think that serve Lion in battlefield as well for knowing so much. And that role go well with being exterminator.

I would have asked him which side will bring peace and stability? Lions do whats best for the pride. Always. Thats the sin of Pride.

I think it was a wink that caliban isn’t in his control. Thus causing the lion to be drawn away from terra. Which eventually he does indeed go separate from guiliman and sanguinius. After he breaks his oath.

Horus' message to Johnson: I am Warmaster and you are not. Daddy chose me, not you. Neener neener neener.

I'd love a conversation between the khan and the lion.

@M.V.P.23

2 жыл бұрын

Considering how the Lion was suspicious the Khan had joined the traitors side, yes a conversation after finding The Khan gave everything to defend Terra it would be quite interesting.

@henryviiifake8244

2 жыл бұрын

Lion: 😐 Khan: 😐 "You good, bro?" Lion: 😐 "Yeah, I'm good. You?" Khan: 😐 "Yeah."

Horus: *whispers* "Warmaster" Lion 'fail Johnson: *tears of jealous rage streaming down his cheeks runs away*

@waynegoddard4065

2 жыл бұрын

Runs in his bedroom on the Invincible Reason, slamming the door as he jumps on his bed with a matching Batman (Night Lords) bedspread and pulls his pillow over his head to cry for ten thousand years. Cub

So this convo happened before the Dropsite Massacre?

The Lion would never have stood aside

Did Horus think it possible? Of course, chaos had influence over his mind. Would it happen, of course not. Loyalty is its own reward.

I liked the original Dark Angels lore where they were fence sitters during the Heresy not committing to either side. Current lore is a mess.

@waylonswartz3850

2 жыл бұрын

Ha! Finally found someone else who is just as old as I am (possibly) to remember that little tidbit of the lore! That's the beginning through 2-3rd Ed stuff there....

@robskovira5626

Жыл бұрын

They weren't fence sitters. That accusation came from Astelan a known Fallen Angel who clearly was in the Camp of Chaos.

Horus probably just told Curze to tell the Lion that half his legion has already fallen.

One of the things I like about the DA arc is that while it is convoluted why they do not just return to Caliban, there is obvious pain. Lion makes it very clear, and says to Guilliman that he sacrificed his homeworld. Holguin calling Lion out in Dreadwing is cathartic for readers, but it also makes it plain how the First are confusing, erratic, but do actually care about others to their own detriment. They dick around like the Wolves and miss Terra, but they do bleed themselves dry believing that it's better to sacrifice their honour and numbers to chase Curze or hurt traitors no matter how much they get messed with or confused. I want the warp creature nonsense to stop as much as anyone else, but after so many betrayals a novel about Caliban will be *epic* as all the games stop and the Loyalists have their own version of Calth; except it's their own planet shooting at them, weirdly they're like a good version of the Night Lords blowing up their planet, but carrying it with them like a wound they refuse to heal.

Probably something cheesey like hey be our new warmaster after Horus is emporer

Hey Rho I've enjoyed your take on things for a while now but have to ask why the switch in your presentation? It used to be that you would actually read a part from which ever story you referenced. Now as of late you make a reference to which ever story and leave us that have become accustomed to you reading a part waiting for something that is... no longer your s.o.p. (standard operating procedure)??? I think you should consider going back to the way you hooked us all to begin with.

Definitely strange he would trust Konrad with those words 🤣🤣🤣

I think he offered the Lion his own empire if he stayed out of the fight by not taking any side. Horus had a plan B if the Lion refused and that was to offer Luther the same deal.

Im guessing that Horus' message to the Lion from the lips of Konrad was an offer of the title of Warmaster of Horus' new Imperium once he won the Heresy. Im guessing the message went as follows "Listen Lion, im going to win this war and be crowned Emperor, which means I'm going to be too busy ruling the Imperium to continue the Great Crusade and reclaim any remaining loyalist worlds and lead the Imperiums war effort, so im going need someone adept at waging war across multiple campaigns on multiple fronts in multiple wars to be in charge of the war effort... I'm going to need a Warmaster... join me and you can have the title and the power that I myself had." Assuming that The Lion did go on to take Horus' side and did join the traitors on Terra and then eventually win the Horus Heresy alongside the traitors, he'd be assassinated quite quickly and then replaced with someone more trustable. As for the Dark Angels, some of them would stay loyal to Horus because they were either corrupted by Chaos or they were loyal to Luthor or Horus more than they were to the Lion. The elements of the Legion that were considered questionable would be purged by those loyal to the New Imperium.

"Not in that way." Damnit before I could even finish the heretical thought!

Personally I believe that the Lion was not chosen because of the Emperors purpose for the Dark Angels which included the tactics or rather leadership style that the Lion implemented with his Legion. No one in the Legion knew the whole plan at any given point in time because the Lion was able to keep track of everything in his mind. Such a leadership style would never have worked with the other Primarchs because they would not accept being kept in the dark or not knowing the full story because they would have seen it as a lack of trust in them. While the Lion is capable to be Warmaster it would have caused too much conflict amongst the other Primarchs because the typical Lion response of "Because I said so" would not fly with them. They would not allow themselves to be used like an extension of the Lions will or limb they themselves are not his sons and there for would never accept such a command structure. As for what the message was? I personally believe that the message was the Night Lords themselves and he left the wording up to Curze, and actually just using the 8th Legion as a giant distraction, which they where. I would also like to add to the Lions entrance in the Vengeful Spirit is that he managed to get on without Horus even being aware of it, and when he entered the Room EVERYONE, except the Primarchs present, dropped to one knee in reverence. Even Typhon who would not do it for his own Primarch and mused over it for Horus. But when the Lion entered there was no musing no hesitation he bent the knee. As for the Lions record, he was only second to Horus and was set to over take Horus to become the Primarch with the most Victories, which was according to Russ and his primarch novel.

Don't see much interaction between these 2 brothers

How does one contact, Wolflord Rho?

First found and he barely had more victorys than the eleventh found. If there had been no Heresy then the Lion would have had more Victorys than Horus easily.

@MrFallenone

2 жыл бұрын

Well you have to remember that the 1st legion was the best even without their Primarch because they got the coolest toys and most experienced commanders. I would bet it took Horus a couple years to catch up to the 1st after he got to lead his legion.

@mio87

2 жыл бұрын

@@MrFallenone I found this "M30 797 - Emperor launches Great Crusade M30 799 - Horus is discovered a couple of years into the Great Crusade and is mentored for 3 decades before the next Primarch is discovered. M30 829 - Leman Russ is discovered 3 decades after Horus. ........ Between M30 834 and M30 854 the following Primarchs are found: Magnus the Red (est 839) Sanguinius (est 844) Lion El'Jonson (est 849)" So Horus was found 40 years before Lion. Well maybe Horus did have 40 years to be better but that is still more than couple years to train his legion. And he must get his legion as well. It because Horus was found only couple years into Great Crusade. And second found Leman Russ was found first 30 years later. That also reason that many of Horus brothers see Horus as favoured son, that why he become warmaster. He had spent 30 years with their father compare to other brothers.

@lawrencegreenwood2646

2 жыл бұрын

@@mio87 And the Lion still caught up in those 40 years and was just behind Horus in victorys. And if you read between the lines the Lion was expanding his Legion to a greater degree than was widely known and was striking further ahead in the Great Crusade than the other Legions were. When the other Legions were at Ullanor partying. The First was fighting and bringing worlds into Compliance.

@mio87

2 жыл бұрын

@@lawrencegreenwood2646 Yeah, Lion is very good general.

It would of been " What will be your reward, Magnus world and legion where destroyed for sending a message, you gave me siege guns, the ones I will use to breach the walls of the Imperial Palace, just what do you think our Father will do to you and yours when he sees them from the battlements? "

I don't think it was anything about offering Lion a position. I feel it must have been about Luther

Curze is just the best Primarch. He'd mess up any of them.

@bodricthered

2 жыл бұрын

He is powerless before the power of hugs... Also, a big hammer to the face...

@williamwalsh4743

2 жыл бұрын

Didn't the Lion beat him in a sword fight?

@mrfun177

2 жыл бұрын

Doubtful Curze is a insane lunatic who was barely functional at the best of time, the only dangerous part about fighting him was that he was unpredictable due to his insanity but even some uppity guy like the lion who was trained to be a knight beat him. The real overlooked powerhouse of the primarchs when it comes to fighting other primarchs imo is Rogal, dude bodied Alpharius and beat the shit out post accension Fulgrim so badly he fled instead of trying to fight him after transforming into his snake form

@henryviiifake8244

2 жыл бұрын

If we pretend Vulcan could never get angry and Lion El Johnson doesn't exist for a moment... *he'd still have to beat Sanguinius (the dude who pimp slaps Greater Demons of Khorne as a hobby), Leman Russ and Angron.* Tbh Fulgrim and the Khan would give him a run for his money - I agree he's favoured, but it would be no walk in the park.

@ttgamefinder3640

2 жыл бұрын

@@williamwalsh4743 lion lost to him 3 times

What were those words? 'Daddy loves me best, nuh-nuh....'

The message to the leon was see you soon brother.

We only have Kurze's word that it was from Horus. The courier is suspect at best or he could just be screwing with the Lion for his own amusement at vexing his sibling.

@ttgamefinder3640

2 жыл бұрын

what we he have to gain from lying ? he didn't like the lion

Very interesting idea about maybe Horus asking for the Lions neutrality but if so maybe the offer was along the lines of the lion being allowed his own empire centred around Caliban and freedom to rule it without interference, similar to Fateweavers offer of freedom to the Lion. this would also mirror Luthers plans but unlike Luther the Lions loyalty obviously lying with the Emperor despite and above his love for his homeworld. Perhaps the fence sitter reputation comes from some of the traitors knowledge of the goings on Caliban with Luther, and traitors spreading propaganda about the Lions neutrality to try and back him into a corner by trying to destroy his reputation, maybe Malcador through his spies caught wind of this propaganda. "loyalty is its own reward"...... just speculation and spitballing obviously.

I think Night Haunter delivered not the message from Horus, but with precognition said the ultimate truth to mind bang Lion.

Lion: Father gave you everything, yet you are nothing. Horus: I am the first found! I am the Warmaster! Lion: You are a boy in a man’s body, upset that he no longer has Fathers attention to himself. Or something close to that I’m no writer.

Horus just wanted to know what hair care products The Lion used. Unfortunately the dark angels’ deepest secret is that lion’el Johnson had a severe receding hair line

Rho, I wonder sometimes if you read the Lion's primarch novel. He very particularly wanted to be there, and thought he had an obligation to be, at Horus' coronation as Warmaster. At the end of that novel, the Emperor lays it out plainly. He said that Horus was made warmaster because Horus needed to be crowned with the laurels in order to keep him going. The Emperor said that other men do not need such accolades. It also notes how the Lion had more worlds than any 2 of his brothers. I think the reality is that Horus feared his brother and didn't know how to deal with him. The Lion's didn't desire a "relationship" with his brothers because he was not somebody that thought it was necessary. If a relationship grew organically, as it did with Russ, then so be it. He was not going to detract from his service to his father in order to establish one with his brothers, who each had their own duties. The reason for Malkador's suspicion is because he didn't know the mind of the Lion and he couldn't get anything out of the agents that he sent to Caliban. The Lion held Sanguinius in high esteem however. He had great respect for Guilliman and Dorn as well. He distrusted Alpharius and the Khan. The Lion respected Perturabo and Magnus, Magnus said that the Lion had "the mind of a scholar". High praise granted from Magnus. The Lion was political and layered in the short story "The Lion" in "The Primarchs" anthology. Savage Weapons is one of the best examples of how ADB is NOT a canon writer, but kind of like fan fiction. He couldn't write the offer because he lacked the insight into the IP. He gets attributes of the gear wrong during the story.

@mio87

2 жыл бұрын

I also think Lion was not made to be warmaster. I think he was made to be a weapon for war, and he is the first. When Emperor did create 15 sons, he need someone to be the leader. Which I think is the reason Emperor created Horus which become number 16 of his sons.

@andrewgalea5012

2 жыл бұрын

Good post

@kingbaldwiniv5409

2 жыл бұрын

@@mio87, there's some good wisdom to what you are saying. I think that it is underestimated however that the Lion commanded compliance and obedience, even among his brothers. I am not saying that the Lion should have been Warmaster, but I am saying that he could serve as Imperial Regent and command respect like few others. His entire being is to work for the will of his father. That reinforces your point, which is a good one.

@kingbaldwiniv5409

2 жыл бұрын

@@andrewgalea5012, thank you.

@mio87

2 жыл бұрын

@@kingbaldwiniv5409 True, I think Lion and most of Horus brothers can be warmaster. But different from Horus and his brothers is that he is best man for that job. To command over his other brothers whos have broad different personalites. I see Horus kind of politician/diplomat to try get everyone get along.

No matter how much the Lion talks, his legion didn't exactly feel the same way did it? He's basically the same as Horus just the other side of the coin.

Lion El'Johnson a.k.a Lion "The Dick"

👍

Do we ever learn what those siege weapons were exactly? Were they used on Terra? What happened to them?

@Cornerboy73

2 жыл бұрын

I don't think we officially know, but I like to think they were those crazy-huge mega cannons Perturabo sent in with the Emperors Children to attack the Saturnine walls while as the Sons of Horus drilled in from below ground. Again, this isn't confirmed but it's the closest I've noted to being those weapons that I've seen in the seige of Terra books.

I see Horus as a politician more than any of his brother. Meanwhile Lion is more as a general. But at same time I think Lion would change his way to his brothers if he was chosen as warmaster.

@mio87

2 жыл бұрын

@WhiteTowerGuard Ah ok, maybe he would not. I was thinking that Lion relationship with DA fellows get switch over to his brothers too. Not that os big change. But still a small one.

This is good soup.🍀🇮🇪🍿👌

Probably something like "Don't kill me please!". He is the 1st for a reason!

Fool. It was obvious. He gave him his secret moonshine recipe to make sure it survives. To this day Abaddon is trying to recreat his father's favorite hooch. (But seriously, it was early Heresy, so Horus was still mostly sane by that point, so he was most likely telling Lion to burn everything after the war is over because whatever is left after they are done, its not worth it. At least that's what I think he did and why Lion will go full genocide after returning. Yes. I think Lion will wake up and choose murder.)

The Lion had a great bull$hit detector