Ah the memories. I was a freelance author writing a coding column and reviewing games for Your Computer. A great hobby activity that was also a nice earner.

Well I knew Commodore UK were offering VIC-20 to C64 "upgrades"; a user would send their VIC-20 back with a £120 cheque, and would get by return a C64 breadbin using their VIC-20 keyboard! Apparently it was all hush-hush and VIC-20 users were only offered it if their machine had a specific issue that would have been Commodore UK's responsibility to fix; something to do with the 16K cartridge not working correctly and not returning the right bytes-free total on boot.

@woko-ly7mm

2 жыл бұрын

i did it the same way in germany back in 1983 sending in the vic20 pcb and get back a c64 one ,but i remenber it took 6-8 weeks and i almost became crazy.missing so the 80 ies

I think if the Vic-30 had come out it would have set the bar for supported memory for games to that level, meaning that games that could take advantage of the C64's increased RAM would be few and far between. Kind of like how you could easily expand the memory on your Vic-20, but most games were written to support the lower 5k because that was the most common architecture. It's bad enough that the C64 came out only two years after the Vic-20 debuted, basically dooming the Vic-20, but to have one or two additional platforms for companies to support would have been more trouble than it was worth. Commodore did the right thing in the end here. But they would make a similar mistake later on with the TED line.

@8_Bit

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, it seems Commodore should have learned their lesson here instead of pressing ahead with the TED and making the mistakes for real that time.

@AaronOfMpls

2 жыл бұрын

Yup, the existence of the C16 really crippled what was available for the Plus/4. Similarly, there wasn't much C128-native software, since most developers just targeted the C64, knowing you could put the 128 in 64 mode.

@JustWasted3HoursHere

2 жыл бұрын

@@8_Bit Yep. As they say, hindsight is 20/20. Commodore made many similar mistakes with Amiga line too (don't get me started on Mehdi Ali and Irving Gould and the MANY bonehead decisions they made over the years as the leaders of Commodore...). Bil Heard, Commodore 8 bit engineer extraordinaire, has talked at length about the _original_ mission of the TED line and how upper management kept adding requirements and changing their minds on pricing, etc to the point that it ended up dooming everything. You can find several of his talks on KZread concerning the triumphs and pitfalls of working at Commodore on these great and potentially great machines. (I think a $49 C16 could have been massively popular, for example).

@another3997

2 жыл бұрын

Strangely, the idea of developing for the lowest common denominator didn't take effect with the original Sinclair ZX Spectrum. The 16K version eventually disappeared, with most software being written for the more popular 48K version.

@espressomatic

2 жыл бұрын

@@8_Bit They continued to make the mistake even after the TED debacle by not EOLing the C64 by 1987 and by not cancelling the 128 (it would have been OK if released in 1984 and then EOL by 1988). Timing was everything and they struck gold 3 times with the release of VIC-20, then C64 and then Amiga. But fumbled everything else by releasing sequel models years too late.

The VIC-10 is listed in MAME as "VIC-10 / Max Machine / Ultimax (NTSC)"

@8_Bit

2 жыл бұрын

It seems the VIC-10 naming has been better remembered, even though it never was released under that name as far as I know. The Wikipedia article for the Max Machine mentions it was called the "VC-10" in Germany, though as far as I know that was only marketing hype; it never was sold there either.

So glad they didn't release a cut down 64 with 16k. The games market would not have been what it was if they did. Companies would have opted to make games run on 16k and compatible with both instead of fully utilizing the 64s RAM.

@d2factotum

2 жыл бұрын

That's not what happened with the Spectrum. Sure, there were a few 16K-only games released, but things rapidly moved over to 48K only...although Sinclair's extremely aggressive pricing strategy probably helped there!

@kevlarian

2 жыл бұрын

I don't know if that is true. If they had made a RAM expansion model for a 'VIC-30' that would upgrade it to 64k. They may have been able to improve games over time. Unlike the VIC-20 which had no larger memory sibling, there was no market for a larger memory version. I had a Tandy CoCo, and it came in a 4k and 16k version. There were games that were made for 4k and there were games that were made for 16k. If you wanted to run the 16k versions from a 4k, there was a memory upgrade. The computers were identical, except for the memory. People could upgrade when their budget allowed. I think if this model had been used, there could have been options.

@valley_robot

2 жыл бұрын

A cheaper 16k c64 would have great for kids like me , I could have upgraded the ram later down the line with a ram pack like the zx spectrum 16k , I got along just fine with my c16 , it had no chance of being successful because its incompatible with c64 software , but I was happy with it , I got it for Christmas , my parents paid 49.99 for it with datasette , four games and a joystick , it was a massive upgrade for me as my computer was a zx81 before that

@RacerX-

2 жыл бұрын

While I agree it would have been great for people looking for a cheaper 64, look at the plus 4/C16. Most of the games were written to be compatible with both. There were very few Plus4 only games. Same situation with the C128. It was compatible with the 64 so that is what developers focused on. While there were plenty of C128 productivity apps there were very few games that took advantage of the 128s increased memory.

@AaronOfMpls

2 жыл бұрын

@@RacerX- Though I imagine part of that was the C128 having to go into a C64 mode to run C64 software. If it could've run C64 programs _without_ a special mode, maybe there could've been some C64 games with extras for the 128.

Wow, I've never heard of these computers. Thanks for this retrospective.

@jpcompton

2 жыл бұрын

That's because they aren't real.

@m0nde

2 жыл бұрын

@@jpcompton they were concepts that were never realized. The Max/ Ultimax, is very real.

That was a fascinating look at what might have been. Ultimately the ZX Spectrum was THE computer to get at the start purely because of it’s price and memory sizes (16k and 48k). Woolworths must have bought a lot of VIC20’s because I remember seeing them being discounted when the C64 was coming down to more affordable levels. Great video, as always 👍🏻😃

@nickryan3417

2 жыл бұрын

Briefly the Spectrum 48k version was the machine to buy... The 16k version may have been at a much more competitive price point but it's very limited capabilities showed very quickly.

@naysmith5272

2 жыл бұрын

this was very informative video. I can imagine, back in the day, some people buying a machine because of the accessible price-point and manufacturers blurb and then a year or so down the line, regretting not spending a little bit more on a more useful machine.

@naysmith5272

2 жыл бұрын

@@nickryan3417 Random googling tells me that £100 in 1982 is about £300 in todays money I'm trying to work out how hard that extra £100 or so would have been to rustle up if I had been a youngster or someone with a young family at that time.

@nickryan3417

2 жыл бұрын

@@naysmith5272 £100 in 1982 is closer to £375 today than £300. The average wage in 1982 was around £6000-6500, therefore £100 was quite a chunk of the monthly income - and this is the £100 difference, not just £100 on its own.

@naysmith5272

2 жыл бұрын

@@nickryan3417 Thanks, that makes sense about what £400 from a £6000 yearly wage would be - back in 1983 my Dad got a BBC Micro through his work and it was a scheme where they take some money from your pay check each month and also subsidised as the company wanted its employees to learn computers and programming for the future. At the same time the only two other people in the street with BBC Micros were well off families that went out and brought them.

Wow. This is a memory blast from the past, thanks. I still have a few of these magazines stashed away for nostalgia reasons. I'd forgotten all about these two ridiculous systems though: neither would ever go anywhere or had any value in the market other than being pointless shelf fillers and they'd struggle to do anything other damage to the Commodore brand. There just was not the market capacity to muddy it up with one really incapable system (VIC-10) and a marginally more capable system but still pretty hopeless (VIC-30) when the C64 was hitting the market on the trailing end of the VIC20 sales and popularity. Even the rather lacklustre opening games that were available when the C64 launched showed that it was going to be so far ahead of these two, those that came within a year or two really demonstrated the vast gulf in capability and quickly ended the VIC-20 as anything other than a memory.

I'm so glad Commodore didn't go this route. As was proved with the 128, Plus/4, and the later Amigas, developers would have just targeted the lower spec machines since the higher end 64 could run MAX and Vic-30 games. It would have slowed development and adoption of the Commodore 64, which turned out to be Commodore's greatest invention.

Great detective work Robin! And good work from Darren too!

I heared about the Vic 10, but never about the Vic 30. Thanks. Greetings Robin

Doesn't surprise me at all that Commodore was basing their decisions mainly on whether or not they could sell their planned computers for less than the competition, rather than whether they could market it as being worth a slightly higher asking price. Jack Tramiel really was the Madman Muntz of computers.

@bitwize

2 жыл бұрын

My dad bought my first computer -- a VIC-20 -- from Crazy Eddie's. Fitting.

oh!.oki i have commodore 64 128,and amiga still!....very very full load all of them..and still playing..am happy to find you! :)...thank you for your channel!!!am in quebec canada...i have a collection of 80's console all that i buy since 1982

I didn't know that the VICII provided the DRAM refresh signal for the system. One of those things I never really thought about, apparently. Another great video, Robin. You're a real Commodore nerd's nerd.

@AaronOfMpls

2 жыл бұрын

"the VICII provided the DRAM refresh signal" -- I learned about that in the 8-Bit Guy's Commodore History series. (Still hoping he gets to an Amiga chapter to that -- which I imagine will be at least 2 or 3 videos in itself. I'll be very surprised if he can pack it into only one.) "Another great video, Robin." -- Agreed! Cool to learn about some of the paths proposed but not taken. 😎

@naysmith5272

2 жыл бұрын

yes I was not aware about the DRAM and SRAM. Thanks for pointing that out in the video, bit of a limitation for the VIC-20 architecture.

@Curt_Sampson

2 жыл бұрын

This was not unusual in 6502 systems. In the Apple II and BBC Micro, as well, the video scan also did DRAM refresh.

I wonder if it was an intentional pun for them to print the headline "Vic gives specs for two" over a photo of two guys wearing glasses?

@MS-ho9wq

2 жыл бұрын

it absolutely was, man, Pommy media types love doing stuff like that

This was fascinating & entertaining to watch. Not just the eye-opening concept of the two interim machines, but also that there were definite computer tech wars going on back in the 8 bit days. It must have been a nail-biting time for all the manufacturers for a few years. Thank you for sharing 👍

@jpcompton

2 жыл бұрын

A computer that was never going to be built is not an "interim machine."

Love this style of video where you do deep dives on history, this was super interesting

In those days there was no internet, so what was said at the exhibitions was the news. But this information may not turn up in glossy magazine for a few months. Since all the mechanical printing machines had to be manually setup and stencils made for those nice images contained in the magazine. So it is not surprising that conflicting information was published during that time. Instead there were trade newspapers which were more closer to the source material in term of time, and that is what us engineers were using.

Truly amazing how hard you work on each video. This channel truly helped inspire my KZread career and success 💯🔥🔥 thank you bro

About the RAM, its wasn't just the cost €£$ that limited the design of these prototypes to be RAM reduced. But RAM was rare, it was incredably hard to get hold of in these years. When I worked at Commodore we had to wait a month sometimes to get a few sticks of RAM. For the Amiga series RAM was not just expensive to it was utterly increadably hard to get hold of in a stick or bulk. All main UK and EU electronic distributers, CPC, Farnell and RS were chasing for stock furisously. This was the main reason for RAM reduced machines and RAM carts became a additional option. Aka even in the Amiga 500, 512KB ram pack, even thou Amiga 500 could have 2048KB ( yes 2048KB not just 1024KB ) soldered to to motherboard if you ever found the chips and paid the expensive rate for them. ROMs also started to get a bit rare too, but the price didn't go up like RAM did. There were so many microcomputers being designed plus clones in this era, RAM and ROMs was just grabbed as soon as they were made. Hence Samsung purchased Philips Semiconductors and the PYE stock (mainly microwave ovens) to grab the sector.... and the rest talks about Samsung a mining company becoming the largest in this sector for semiconductors.

Your Computer will show you listings of many of the UK computers of the time. Oric, Dragon, Genie, Newbrain, Lynx (Not Atari but Camputers) Many companies based in Cambridge. At school at the time we also had 380Z and 480Z educational computers with the BBC computers gaining more market share after 1982. We had Commodore groups and Sinclair groups at school. But the BBC Micros was where I really started home computing with electronic engineers at the local computer club who built their own disk drives! Many such groups and clubs advertised in Your Computer. My career was inspired by the interviews with Richard Altwasser and Herman Hauser in this magazine.

Very nicely done, Robin! Really enjoyed this.

Old Man Sinclair sure had a hate on for Commodore. They undercut the market in the UK and made it impossible to gain a wide following until the Timex Sinclair computers

@bitwize

2 жыл бұрын

Taunting Jack like that was really poking the bear. Of course at the time Jack was occupied with driving TI out of the home computer market, as revenge for TI undercutting Commodore in the calculator market in the 70s.

@weedmanwestvancouverbc9266

2 жыл бұрын

@@bitwize He had his revenge Texass Instruments when HE was in control of the CPU supply TI needed to get a foothold in the NA market. Jack showed up at the computer show at Robson Square the same year Jim Butterfield was there. BCTV should have video of that. Jack was as ruthless as Jim was nice.

I'd prefer a VIC-More-Columns-on-the-Screen.

@8_Bit

2 жыл бұрын

The VIC-III in the Commodore 65 finally did that. Unfortunately many years too late.

Wow! I have never heard of the Vic-30, and I've been pretty hardcore 8-bit since it was cutting edge. :) I do recall hearing about the Vic-10 but as you say that's just the MAX with a different name, so nothing new there. Fascinating look into the past, I enjoyed this very much -- thank you.

Makes me wonder if the 6567 was a sort of last-minute decision from Commodore. Perhaps the whole range was supposed to launch with a 6566 and SRAM - but then the ZX Spectrum came out, and seeing what sort of price point they had to compete at they decided that switching to DRAM and cutting the lower-end machines was the way to go?

@jpcompton

2 жыл бұрын

Yes. Yes, Clive Sinclair started selling matchboxes and Commodore International changed its entire product design strategy. That is what happened.

Very interesting History about Commodore’s past. I grew up with the c64 bread bin model, I was 7 years old and learnt programming on this machine for many years. Later on I discovered the c64 was the successor of the Vic 20. Then the line of Commodore pets, calculators and typewriters. Little did I know now there was a prototype at UK’s Commodore h.q. about the vic 10 & vic 30!!! You learn something new everyday! Thanks for sharing this knowledge :-)

Such a fantastic magazine, I remember as a teen, buying this and popular computing weekly. C&VG as well

Can the VIC2 chip in the max get characterset and sprite data directly from the cartridge (like the NES)? The C64 has to load everything (other than the standard petscii font) into RAM, but 2k on the max just isn't enough for a text screen, 8 sprites and a full character set.

@8_Bit

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, the 6566 can see the cartridge ROM directly. And actually, the 6567/6569 in the C64 can also get graphics data from the cartridge *when* it's in Ultimax (VIC-10 / Max) mode, which is selected at the expansion/cartridge port. So you can't do that in a regular C64 program loaded from disk or tape, but a cartridge can enable that mode if it likes. Early cartridge games just shorted that pin if they were in Ultimax mode but some later utility cartridges would dynamically use that pin to their advantage.

10:00 "With the new 6566 chip creating true three-dimensional graphics becomes extremely simple." Well, I guess these machines would be able to run Elite if it came on a cartridge.

@Curt_Sampson

2 жыл бұрын

It's not clear to me that 2K of RAM would be enough for Elite, no matter how much ROM you also had to dedicate to it. But yeah, otherwise the MAX Machine was essentially a C64 with little RAM, no ROM and the serial I/O and user ports removed. The VIC-30, though, yeah, no problem. (Though you would have needed a some additional address decoding logic on the ROM cart to handle more than 16K of ROM.)

Since these were variations of the Commodore 64, you'd think Commodore would want to call the VIC-10 and VIC-30 the "Commodore 10" and "Commodore 16". Though, I suppose that the public's basis of comparison at the time would have been the VIC-20, which makes it interesting they didn't call the 64 the "VIC-64".

@8_Bit

2 жыл бұрын

Interestingly, in Sweden they did call it the VIC-64 - if you google image search for "VIC-64 manual" the cover should show up. It seems the VIC brand really did have a lot of name recognition for a while there so it makes some sense that Commodore UK would pursue that angle.

@8BitNaptime

2 жыл бұрын

I wonder what a SX-20 would have looked like. For sure easier to read 22 columns on that monitor...

@ericsills6484

2 жыл бұрын

As the 8-bit guy explains, the VIC-20's name touted the newly created video interface chip. He notes that the 20 was an interesting part of the computer's name, but it makes sense to me now knowing that there was a VIC-10.

@d2factotum

2 жыл бұрын

@@ericsills6484 The C64 still had a VIC chip, though, it was just the VIC-II rather than the original. So they could still reasonably have called it the VIC-64 if they chose. I found it quite funny that one of those articles talked about the C64 being compatible with almost all VIC-20 software, though--pretty darned sure that's not the case!

@nickryan3417

2 жыл бұрын

@@d2factotum Porting a game from the VIC-20 was possible and not too difficult, but it was definitely not compatible as the custom chips and capabilities were far too different.

Really enjoy items like this, looking at how things could have been different. When you say Commodore gave some independence to the various divisions. I recall David Pleasance former Commodore UK boss describing it as them all competing with each other. With no overall direction, multiple R&D projects were underway. Hence... the lack of focus on their most successful products, C64 and later the Amiga. The Vic10 and Vic30 look like computers that undermine their bigger brothers the Vic20 and C64 respectively. C16 and Plus4 seemed to do the same thing to the C64. Back in the day i don't recall the Max, here in UK.

@daishi5571

2 жыл бұрын

There really was a lot of independence. When Commodore went bankrupt, Commodore UK continued for almost an entire year selling and supporting systems.

@Curt_Sampson

2 жыл бұрын

To me it feels as if the VIC-20 is the odd one out in that line-up, mainly because of that horrible 22-column display and poor graphics compared to the new generation. I find even 32-column displays annoying, and I would have been strongly motivated at the time to go for something with at least 40 columns, even if 80 columns was out of reach. The MAX Machine seems mostly a smart move: it's basically a C64 (with its 40 column display, great graphics and SID sound; it lacked only the serial bus and user port) with one exception: the reliance on cartridges as the only reasonable storage medium. (Even if you could fit a decent game in its 2K of RAM, there was no way to load it from cassette as the machine had no ROM at all. This might have been fixed with an expansion cartridge that enough ROM to have a tape loader and, say, 16K of RAM.) After that, the next step up would be a VIC-30 (a 16K C64) with its proper keyboard and a full complement of I/O ports, which for me would offer serious advantages over the Spectrum: the proper keyboard and 40 columns makes programming a lot easier. If that could have been sold at a price not much above the Spectrum, I think it could have been a real winner.

I wonder how it would have gone for Commodore in 1983 if this had happened. Would it have helped their success or hastened their demise? I guess we will never know!

@8_Bit

2 жыл бұрын

If the VIC-30 had some success, it probably would have really hurt software development for the C64, as a lot of software would just target this 16K model. And long-term that would have hurt the C64 directly, I think.

@jpcompton

2 жыл бұрын

Those machines would have been terrible wastes of time and resources. Which I strongly suspect those with a lick of sense in the larger Commodore organization had already told our unnamed C= UK source, who spent some of 1982's warmer months trying to drum up more column-inches for his organization on the concepts regardless.

@vytah

2 жыл бұрын

@@8_Bit This kind of targeting the 16K model really hurt the 264 line, with Plus/4's potential never fully realized.

@rbrtck

2 жыл бұрын

@@8_Bit That's exactly right, especially when we consider similar situations such as the Atari 8-bit and the Commodore TED series (what I tend to call them--I mean the 264 series, of course). Atari really can't be blamed because RAM, even DRAM, was so expensive at the time, but nonetheless the C64 demonstrated the advantages of having just the right timing for a more capable minimum configuration. And although the TED computers are a much smaller basis for comparison, the Plus/4 definitely suffered due to the existence of the C16, for which much/most TED series software was designed. We could even compare the C128 situation, as well, since it was impacted by the existence of the C64. It's a bit different because the C64 was already so well established, but the same principles apply. The C64 was different enough from the VIC-20 to establish its own market presence, and it didn't have "light" variants of itself to drag it down--an ideal situation that made it and Commodore more successful than they otherwise would have been.

@BilisNegra

2 жыл бұрын

The 64 was immensely sucessful, so I guess we can only wonder whether things would have turned out slightly worse... or massively so.

Excellent piece of digital archeology. Very interesting.

Not heard about those machines either. Fascinating that they even had the idea for such products... Clearly it was overkill... I recall a friend of mine had a VIC20 in 1981/82 and had Omega Race and some Bug Byte games which I forget... I managed to get a C64 for xmas in 1983 and it was quite a step up although quite expensive for my family (about £800 in todays money!) as we didn't even have a cassette player (got one for xmas the next year!). I used to buy all the magazines around that time and type in the listings... Your 64, PCN, and many others.... was a wonderful time and a nice escape...

@stephenrobertson6025

2 жыл бұрын

When I got my C64 (After the price drop to £229) there was a shortage of C2N cassette decks. For weeks I had to make do with tying in examples from the manual and losing all the data when the machine was turned off. In restrospect though that did give me a very good understanding of the BASIC and the memory addresses used for POKEing the graphics and sound features, so it served as a great start in actually programming the machine.

@michaelterrell

2 жыл бұрын

@@stephenrobertson6025 I wrote a one line program that would simulate a failed PLA chip, that caused the screen to flicker though all colors. I would do that to people who bragged about being an 'expert'. I repaired a lot of C64 computers and 1541 drives at the component level back then.

My first computer was a Commodore 64. I wrote my own Pac-Man in Basic using the Sprite (movable object block) capability, then wrote the movement logic using assembly language. I had to put in no-op loops to slow down Pac-Man and the ghosts because even with that 1mhz 6502 the game characters would zip across the maze at lightning speed. It was a great project to teach me everything about the computer and how to structure an application. This was 1983 or 1984; I was in the Air Force, in a technical job working on F-15 Avionics, so I was quite the geek. After four years I got out of the military and joined a small startup that made the a headset replacement for the original Mac mouse. That company transitioned to software, making SmartNotes, UltraVision and a series of Lotus 1-2-3 add-in utilities. My career took off and after three startups and 26 year I retired, at age 48. That was 12 years ago. With just a high school education and a bit of curiosity I created a very successful software career. Back in the early days of the whole computer and software industry. It was a great ride.

Amazing video Robin. I love this. Hey guys. Remember to watch the stream with Bil Herd on his channel in 40 minutes (2 pm EST). He streams every friday.

At 10:00 this is just like looking at me back in 1985, same great, bold fashion sense paired with invisible moustache and oversized glasses. I'd give 1541 for a genuine sweater like that. :)

Shoutout for the AD at kzread.info/dash/bejne/n5d2ucOxqbqan6w.html for the Sharp MZ80A my first PC, my mum picked one up at auction and we spent a lot of time with it and its very PET like Basic. I always wondered when it was released and how much it cost. Ultimate it got replaced by my C64c in 1989, good times.

@8_Bit

2 жыл бұрын

That Sharp is a really great looking machine.

Very interesting video. This is what happens when you have access to all the magazines of the time. If the internet had been around. The situation would have moved a lot faster. We could never have seen the evolution.

I had not heard of these. Interesting indeed how fast things changed.

Holy cow, a Commodore 720? That might've been really interesting!

Grate job! Very interesting.

Funfact: Here in germany they announce the VIC-20 as VC-20 (VC for "Volks-Computer") because VIC sounds similar to the word "fick" which means fuck in german :)

Very interesting video and very nice to see what was happening in the UK at that time. I'm guessing here in the US by late 82 or early 83 Commodore was looking to emphasize there software for the existing VIC 20 owners and wanting to push the C64 for individuals looking for a "new" home computer at that time. Commodore just had to wait until DRAM prices to fall in the early 80s before being able to really push the C64 at a decent price. They also may have felt that releasing to additional VIC models in the US could lead to confusion or fragmentation of the VIC market. They also didn't have competition in the US that was as fierce as it was in the UK at the time. I'm guessing due to the extensive push of lower cost home computers in the UK by the government they were seen as more of an item the average household should own where in the US home computers throughout the 80s were seen more as a luxury item. At least in the part of the US I grew up in they were very much seen that way until the 90's when the PC market absolutely exploded with the advent of widespread internet access.

@GarryGri

2 жыл бұрын

Microcomputers weren't really ever seen as a luxury item over here in the UK, largely down to the price and popularity of the ZX Spectrum. Practically everyone had a Spectrum, it seamed. My first computer was a VIC 20, but later I also had a 48k Spectrum+. The C64 really crippled the VIC, which could have had much better games developed if it had run longer. Just look at the level of homebrew that has been brought out since!

Cool! I used to have the ZX-81. Never heard of the Vic-30 :) Interesting 👍😎

MOS6566 was used in the MAX Machine

There apparently were some C64's bult with SRAM later on. I had a C64C that had to be powered off for a full five minutes after certain games that tried to defeat post-reset data ripping and freeze cartridges. The same games had no issue in older and some newer machines either, you couldn't reset or freeze them but you only needed to turn the power off for a second to get started in the familiar blue screen.

Years ago an early C64/ VIC-40 prototype PCB showed up on ebay, but was never seen again after end of auction. To this day nobody knows what happened to this board. I think it's in collector's hand, but the collector doesn't want to be named for unknown reasons.

Thank you very much.

Nice history information

Nice detective work, Robin! I knew about the Max back then but until now I never heard of the Vic-30 before. Were there any plans to release it in the USA and Canada?

Great stuff.

The rate at which technology was moving forward, allowing reduced costs etc, combined with the rapidly expanding home computer market, meant that most companies were caught out at some point. Developing a computer takes time and money, but when things move so fast, you can't get things done in time. The goalposts move, sometimes you spot it in time, other times the ball is already in the air and there's nothing you can do, and you lose a lot of money.

Thanks for this, very interesting indeed. I was a Vic-20 owner myself, but also had a ZX81 that had been given to me. The ZX81 was crap in ways that I can't even find words for, and even when it was new it was well behind the curve.

@dunebasher1971

2 жыл бұрын

But it was so much cheaper than its competition, and that's what counted.

@andygozzo72

Жыл бұрын

@@dunebasher1971 exactly, it was cheap, and did basically (!) work and later, ways were found to squeeze hires graphics out of it with a modded or specially made rampack or static ram expansion fitted inside ,as for sound, AY add ons were available, there was a colour module for a semi clone of a zx81 knows as a lambda 8300/power3000/ 'your computer', i've read it can be adapted for a zx81 but its a bit of a hassle and cumbersome to 'drive', the lambda rom had the colour commands built in ready, but you couldnt use that rom directly in a zx81 , without further mods, plus its keyboard symbols and function layout was different, no doubt can be 'altered' to suit (i intend to as and when.....)

Spectrum got the start, at the end, before Amiga and ST took over, Commodore was the machine with the games. I bought a C64 rather than a Spectrum purely based on American C64 games already released in the U.S. and spent about £30-40 at specialist game stores to buy these imports. This was way before U.S. Gold came along!

@stephenrobertson6025

2 жыл бұрын

I paid £50 for an imported copy of Sublogic Flight Simulator 2 on the C64. That was a huge amount of money back then, for the pleasure of flying at around 6fps past a cardboard cut-out of the Statue of Liberty.

@MarkTheMorose

2 жыл бұрын

Similar for me: I bought imported American games from the Six Four Supplies company (I think), before US Gold. I think I recall getting BC's Quest For Tires, and possibly Pooyan that way.

Oh, what a drying-shame that 'Commodore UK' wasn't able to continue the Commodore brand. They were doing such sterling work, here.

As soon as I heard "16k C64", I was immediately glad that machine got cancelled. Assuming the memory was the only difference and software would be compatible with both, the mere existence of that machine would've ruined the C64 software library.

@MarkTheMorose

2 жыл бұрын

That's true; the 64k C64 would have ended up like the Plus/4: little or no software developed specially for it, because everything was being written to run on the 16k machine.

@BilisNegra

2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely. Making Commodore's most successful lineup (64/64c/128) flop in the process!

They really missed an opportunity in not calling one of them the VIC-42

Learned of 2 new computers today. Thanks!

@jpcompton

2 жыл бұрын

Which two computers are you referring to?

@DoubleTopHoneyCo

2 жыл бұрын

@@jpcompton The vic 10 & 30, then the vic 64 naming. Not sure why they would name them after the chips instead of Commodore or CBM. I have 2 x 64s fully restored, 1541, 1702, 803 printer, sd2iec, wifi card, and pretty much just concentrate on those. I have too many extracurricular activities outside of Commodore. I'm nearly finished restoring a 1973 Commodore Minuteman 3 rechargeable calculator for everyday use. Well, once a month with the checking account balancing.

@jpcompton

2 жыл бұрын

VIC-30 was definitely not a real thing. VIC-10 is only a real thing if we squint and give the limited-run MAX partial credit.

awwww.........I thought you had a rare prototype you were going to show us. That would have been amazing! lol

@8_Bit

2 жыл бұрын

Sorry :) But my MAX Machine is pretty rare at least!

@awilliams1701

2 жыл бұрын

@@8_Bit very true, but I have seen that before. lol IF not from you then from someone else. They even did a composite mod.

@8_Bit

2 жыл бұрын

@@awilliams1701 Yes, I think that was Jan Beta's excellent video.

I had a Vic-20 but missed out on the C64 utterly. If the Vic-20 had had the SID chip, I'd have been over the moon, because half of what I did with the Vic-20 was program little tunes. Even at 8 years old, I was endlessly frustrated by the limitations of the Vic-20's square waves and especially the fact that there was only a single volume control. You had to get pretty creative to get any use at all out of volume control if you used more than one voice. Generally speaking, I ignored volume altogether.

I see a NewBrain at 0:57 I had never heard of this machine until I found one in the trash years ago, I just had to take it home! Unfortunately I have never had the chance to try and power it on to see if it still works...

Huh! That’s amazing 🤩

Anyone heard of a Vector Graphics cp/m computer, that's what I had before my c64

Did you get a new mic? Sounds different. Nice video, very polished.

@8_Bit

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks. Same mic but sat at my desk reading a script rather than at my table waving hands, typing on an old computer. I'll probably make more of these style videos going forward, but will continue with the "hands-on" videos too, which by nature are less scripted.

@rotordave81

2 жыл бұрын

@@8_Bit FWIW I prefer the less scripted hand waving!

@8_Bit

2 жыл бұрын

@@rotordave81 Thanks, I generally do too. This "documentary" style is well-suited to certain topics that I'm also interested in, mostly 8-bit history, so I'll use it once in a while where it suits.

Interesting information, I have a few of these magazines, not sure how much was here say from Commodore in Slough in the UK and one magazine feeding off another? At this time there was some speculation with the Vic, 10, 30 and the 500 and 700 machines too as to how they would fit into the market in the UK (I would have loved the p500 to have done better as my favourite commodore). I suppose the Vic doesn't have high res graphics, but can manage to get around that with its reconfigurable character set, I would like to know how CPU intensive is this task as it doesn't seem to affect software too much in speed? The arrival of the Sinclair zx81 and spectrum both in the uk and us (which for a time was the best selling pc including us and uk) caused the computer cash and many to leave the market and commodore having slash its prices.

I actually had that copy of Your Computer and some of it is still firmly in my memory. I remember Popular Computing Weekly very well too.... never ever seen Vic Computing though.... I wonder if it was from a user group or from Commodore UK????

Seems like Commodore’s Achillies’ heel was being able to just pick a damn name and stick with it.

this was super interesting.

I wonder if the eventual Commodore C16 happened because Commodore UK wanted a 16K machine to replace the VIC-20 and compete at the entry level? The ZX81 with 16K was discontinued in 1984, I'm not sure about the 16K Spectrum, but I suspect that both machines were still on the shelves in early 1985 in independent computer outlets across the UK. And of course you could still purchase software for either machine then.

Amazing, just when you think you know everything about Commodore!!

I've never heard of the VIC 30.

@8_Bit

2 жыл бұрын

I hadn't either until just the last week when reading these old magazines.

@jpcompton

2 жыл бұрын

That's because it isn't real.

@wisteela

2 жыл бұрын

@@jpcompton It was planned though.

The Vic-30 would have been the death of the C64. When 8 bit computers had a lesser version of the same machine, software companies would make their games compatible with both machines, and thus crippling the games to make it work with 16K. It was a wise decision to kill the Vic-30. Sure there would be exceptions with C64 only games, but it would have been devastating to the Commodore C64 library.

The Commodore Max may have been available in the UK. Because around 1990, my neighbour passed a Max onto me. I never did anything with it as I already was using an Amiga at the time, and I subsequently sold it for a few quid at a car boot sale.

The whole market was a mess, looking back. What ultimately turned out to matter most was compatibility. Just as later on, the web would succeed because of the common format of http. They were trying to sell computers as domestic appliances, but imagine TVs that couldn't receive the same broadcast standards between manufacturers, or even models from the same manufacturer. Or record players where each model was tied to one type of record that other record players couldn't play. Or- here's a really silly one- a juice packet squeezer that could only squeeze specially manufactured juice packets. I look back on these days with fondness (my first computer was a ZX81) but the Jobs model of the all in one computing appliance was doomed to failure.

@jpcompton

2 жыл бұрын

You make good points but I'm not sure where "Jobs model" comes into play. First-wave Jobs-at-Apple wasn't without fault, but "your stuff will probably keep working" marches through the cornerstone Apple II series fairly well. Far better overall than Commodore, which between 1981-1984 alone was selling at least four distinct "binary-incompatible except for some very basic BASIC programs" platforms (PET, VIC-20, C64, TED). The appliance model worked out so poorly because a ton of time was wasted trying to cover different price points (akin to selling a $20 three-speed blender and a $50 five-speed blender, etc.) instead of really nailing a design, piling it high, and selling it deep. Even when Commodore *actually succeeded* with that strategy on the C64, it couldn't stick to the plan and instead opted for a strategy of tripping over its own genitalia at every available opportunity.

@ian_b

2 жыл бұрын

@@jpcompton Well, I just meant that it was Steve Jobs who thought of making a computer that looks like an appliance, in an injection moulded case and so on. I agree generally with the points you make.

Yeah, those really are convincing looking edited photos of a so-called "Commodore VIC 30"! (Also, the since the VIC 20 badge really doesn't have a hyphen, and this 30 version was made to match, we should just save ourselves the extra effort and also not bother typing it in.)

After all, it was a good decision to drop of the VIC10 & VIC30. The 128 came far too late. And yes Bil, I Herd that, but just ONE OS and more than 128k would've done that. Imagine a C64 with double SID, 256k of RAM and 1571 support.

@jpcompton

2 жыл бұрын

Even better, imagine focusing that effort on an *actual* next-generation computer instead of fruitlessly running down endless (TED) terrible (128) blind (C65) alleys (TED again because it was that terrible).

@axemanracing6222

2 жыл бұрын

@@jpcompton Yeah this was stupid, also. And that terrible Amiga line :-;

@fredflintstoner596

2 жыл бұрын

DO YOU HERD THAT THE SAME SAME WAY YOU HERD SHEEP ? EVER "HEARD" OF SPELL CHECK ?

@axemanracing6222

2 жыл бұрын

@@fredflintstoner596 Hey stupid, you don't know who Bil Herd is?

@fredflintstoner596

2 жыл бұрын

@@IcyTorment THAT'S STILL WRONG HE'S PUT "AND YES BILL, I HERD THAT" AS HE HAD LISTENED TO BILL SAY SOMETHING SO MAY READ IT AGAIN AND YOU WILL GET THE MISSPELLING OF THE WORD HEARD

I used to live for the release of the new edition of, Your Computer', each month, back in the day. I'd spend hours reading it from cover to cover, even to the point of memorising the ads! 🤣 That article throwing shade on the ViC-20 from an obvious Spectrum, 'expert', would have been viewed with either indifference or ire depending on when that particular edition was issued.

I think in the end, having a more limited range of models was the better way to go. By this time the market was already suffering from to many incompatible machines with no software.

I wonder if the upgrade offer in UK evolved into the rebate program offered in the US for a C64? $100 rebate for trade-in of a computer or video game. Family had a mid-70s sears tele-pong used for that.

Thanks.

Vic-20 sound is second rate compared to the speccy? Know which I prefer. And 6566 3D graphics? This is all very odd. But interesting.

@8_Bit

2 жыл бұрын

Commodore marketing made some pretty strange claims about the VIC-II. The "3D graphics", I think, was just the fact that the sprites overlapped each other, and could be set to appear in front of or behind certain character/bitmap graphics.

@nickryan3417

2 жыл бұрын

@@8_Bit Given that 3D rendering of any form was pretty much an impossibility outside of research, having multiple graphics layers and to be able to move these semi-independently would almost quite reasonably come across as 3D. The craze for pseudo-3D (bas-relief) interfaces was much later in the C64 life therefore they won't have been referring to these.

@8_Bit

2 жыл бұрын

@@nickryan3417 Yes, it could seem fairly reasonable from a 1982 perspective. The really "out there" claim is that the VIC-II can display 256 sprites.

@nickryan3417

2 жыл бұрын

@@8_Bit While it was easily technically possible to display 64 full height sprites (with just 8 vertical raster switches), and I vaguely remember some tech demos switching sprites faster than this, possibly closer to 200 or even 220, but I don't remember as many as 256. However I don't think that the raster interrupt hacks were used that early, so really couldn't have been a sensible claim. I can't even remember when I first saw the technique demo'd, but it wasn't immediate. From memory some arcade platforms from Atari (or similar) could manage 256 sprites at around that time though.

@8_Bit

2 жыл бұрын

@@nickryan3417 The designers of the VIC-II were aware that the sprites could be multiplexed and even described it in the Programmer's Reference Guide in 1982, but yeah, there's no way they could support the claim of 256 sprites.

I hear a new Bedford Level Experiment track at the end there, where can I get that one?

@8_Bit

Жыл бұрын

Sorry, I don't think the full song has been released at all. I'd like to get another album of Commodore songs released but it'd be great if a small label would take care of a physical release on cassette and maybe even vinyl. Not sure there's any label that would want to risk it though. Just thinking out loud! I appreciate your interest.

Do a video on the VIC-40 next, which is a machine very similar to the C64 of which even a possible prototype popped up on german eBay a few years ago but has been lost ever since. Secret Weapons of Commodore has some additional info on it.

Great song.

From what we (the "lower-budget" VIC 20 users) added STEP BY STEP to our 3.5 K RAM VIC 20 with off-the-shelf no graphic command enabled BASIC in the years before the 64 was available (and affordable) - i.e. the Graphic BASIC + 3K RAM expansion module and later a 16K, 32K or even 40K RAM expansion modules (the 40K RAM version including 8K RAM in the ROM module memory segment and therefor only interesting for the homebrew video game "developer" customer segment and probably never officially supported by Commodore marketing in an advanced VIC 20 "+" version) - Commodore could have had FINANCIAL SUCCESS with a "VIC 20b" , "VIC 20+" or "VIC 25" version : modifying the VIC 20 mainboard inside the standard breadbox with RAM and ROM sockets (for a slightly memory-map adapted version of the graphic enabled BASIC ROM) to allow the local distributors (or the user if warranty issues were no problem to him/her) to add BASIC ROM and 16K or 32K RAM internally before delivery (+ modifying the case sticker to a RAM-related new name "VIC 20 ...") at the time when RAM chips became available in a suitable price-range for the VIC 20 / C64 customer segment. The VIC-10 would only have been a commercial success if a licensing agreement with (at that time already financially struck) Atari could have allowed a Atari VCS game-module compatible version of the VIC-10 : internally adding the Atari VCS sprite concept to the VIC-10 graphic chip and (optionally) adapting the memory map. Both systems already had a 6502-based CPU to allow a relatively easy modification of the VIC 10 design.

I'd love to know (or see) what was implied by "three-dimensional graphics" by those publications at the time. Did they really mean 3D line vector graphics (because of bitmap modes) ? I find that odd since a lot of line vector graphics didn't appear until the dawn of games such as Elite and Mercenary.. (and Battlezone I guess) on the C64

@asgerms

2 жыл бұрын

Just remember that the Apple II was a very popular and much older system (from 1977) with high res graphics and plenty of examples of wireframe 3D graphics that could have served as inspiration. (don't know your nationality, but many of my fellow europeans are not mindful how huge/early/sophisticated Apple was)

@paulspark7287

2 жыл бұрын

@@asgerms I'm English but I was only 9 when I got my Vic 20. I never knew (or saw) an Apple until I went into an office and saw one when I was 15. That's how well known Apple products were to most kids of the era. It may have been a different case for people working in offices and data processing - but yeah, we only knew of the ZX81/Spectrum, Dragon32, BBC Micro/Electron/Oric and C64. Without internet or seeing other types of computer in the shops (Boots chemist was our main computer shop at the time).. we had little exposure. I used to marvel at the wireframe graphics in magazines such as INPUT and the likes.. but I would never have thought the Vic20 (and the cancelled derivatives) would be marketed as 3-D capable machines.. especially when the Super Expander was so hard to come by. I wanted one of those for years - Commodore would make me wait 28 days before sending a letter saying "Discontinued". Maybe I got my Vic when it was too late but I reckon if they'd sold the Super Expander as part of the Vic it would have been an awesome package.. and perhaps would have been able to sell the Vic as 3D capable with some good Super Expander BASIC examples.

@adrianfox9431

2 жыл бұрын

I think it meant sprites. Sprites can be thought of as 3d as they move in-front/behind the text and graphics.

@paulspark7287

2 жыл бұрын

@@adrianfox9431 I suppose if it had a VIC-II chip, that would make sense. Some of the advertising back in the day was misleading - especially to a kid :-)

@Curt_Sampson

2 жыл бұрын

@@paulspark7287 The MAX Machine/VIC-10 and VIC-30 were technologically not derivatives of the VIC-20; they were part of the Commodore 64 family, which was essentially a whole new generation of computers, with much better graphics and sound.

Commodore had way to many computers which just made everything confusing for software developers.

@oldguy9051

2 жыл бұрын

Too many systems, yes, but everybody developed for the C64 and pretty much nothing else. For competing systems it was sometimes more diffcult to get stuff running (games for Atari were either for the 16K, 48K or 64K machines, but not much for the 128K-equipped Atari 130XE).

16:33 "how companies, I guess especially Commodore, were struggling to keep up". I see what you did there. 😄

Would the Static RAM Vic 2 chip interrupt the CPU less?

@8_Bit

Жыл бұрын

I've wondered that myself, but don't know the answer unfortunately. My Commodore Max, last I checked, is still working and has the Static version of the VIC-II, so some tests could be written for it to see if it's measurable.

Danke!

@8_Bit

6 ай бұрын

Thank you!

400 pounds sterling doesn't seem much now, but in the early 80's a pound was worth a lot more. I remember nearly 10 Dutch guilders to the pound. 4000 guilders was a month's wage for someone with an above average salary.

It's a shame they never fixed the IEC and BASIC for the c64, both the c64 and Vic were a dog to program and use without external tools. The c16 got it right, programming wise anyway.

in 1982 the weekly pay was around £150. this depends on age and skills. £100 is the equivalent of around £350 today.

Wow-what a mess! Long live the C64!

OK, so all those people who say that the Max is the first version of the 64 instead of being the predecessor to it are wrong. I've heard people say that the Max is a version of the 64 from just before the "64" name was settled on.

where did you get the VIC30 from and can you open it?

@8_Bit

2 жыл бұрын

The VIC-30 is vapourware, those are just artist's impressions "photoshops" done by my friend Darren at GrooTube.

A funny thing about the name, the Commodore 64 was sold in Sweden under the name Vic 64.

My guess: commodore was still settling on exactly what they would go with to replace the vic-20 & the author of that article spoke with commodore marketing who really didn’t know & just mentioned various possibilities that the author took as more accurate than really justified

@8_Bit

8 ай бұрын

There's multiple authors reporting from multiple sources so I think it was more than just that. Since I made this video, I've found many more reports mentioning the VIC-30 including one in "Software & Microsystems" which was a peer-reviewed scientific journal, stating that the VIC-30 was announced at the 1982 Hannover Fair, and it was named between the VIC-20 and C-64 in the lineup.