I love this video, too many Tolkien content creators don’t understand the Valar, me being religious I fully understand their corse of involvement with the Children of Iluvatar. And I am glad somebody put it so well and beautiful. That being said: How can they say that the Valar abandoned the children, Manwe himself intervenes every time the great Eagles save the day ( which people dismiss as lazy writing or uh, how convenient the Eagles were just there and then) it is literally Deus ex machina , Deus being very much present and involved! And that greatest of scenes in the book when cock crows in the yard somewhere in the city and the wind from the West blows fresh and with hope…I can just picture Manwe and Varda standing together on top of Taniqetil and force the Wind across the sea in the right moment of the Rohirrim arriving. It’s so subtle and yet it made ALL the difference. Once again LOVE the video ❤️

@fifi-trixibell1888

2 жыл бұрын

Sorry for bad English.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Nicely put! I'm always glad when someone religious actually agrees with how I phrase these things because I am not religious myself. Too often I read people hating on the Valar or misrepresenting what Tolkien actually wrote about them. It is why I decided to have this video be "Of the Valar and Middle-earth" instead of "Did the Valar abandon Middle-earth". It's Sauron who would believe such a thing. We aren't meant to!

@aldiascholarofthefirstsin1051

2 жыл бұрын

These creators you know must be very dumb, as a atheist myself, it is very easy to understand the valar.

I love that passage where Tulkas drops Melkor on his head then hog ties him. At least that’s what it looks like in my brain. Another great video Steven!

@TheRedBook

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks Justin, and yes! All while he pleads and thinks he'll get away with it. Carried off in humiliation :D

@Enerdhil

2 жыл бұрын

I thought the Valar participated in the War of Wrath, but it seems they didn't.

This channel is like a silmaril, once you have seen it you only want more of it

@TheRedBook

3 жыл бұрын

More will come! No need for a Kinslaying...

Really the bottom line is that if the Valar had intervened it would have wrecked the place. The triumph of mortals over Sauron with the guidance and aid of the last of the great Elves and assistance of the Istari created a better future for Men than they'd have had if the Valar had pulled a deus ex machina.

@TheRedBook

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, I think a lot of people focus on the destructive aspect and don't focus on the other point you made - the growth of mankind, the passing of Middle-earth to Men and them inheriting the world they fought for.

There is an argument to be made that the Powers should have stayed in Middle Earth. Their first home, Almaren, was right in the middle of Arda and in the middle of the action. Then they retreated to the West. They draw the Firstborn to themselves in the West as well desiring to be near to the Children of Eru. This increases the greatness of the Calaquendi, but it also takes there talents and presence from Middle Earth. Also, perhaps to the surprise of the Ainur, there is no place of absolute bliss and contentment for the Children of Eru in Arda. Conflict, weariness, and death come for the Elves even in Aman. Was it right for the Valar to pull the Elves to themselves or should they have made their dwelling near to the home of the Children they loved? The Valar use this approach with men in the Second Age. Numenor is human Tol Eressea. It's flora and perhaps some of it's fauna come from the West delivered by the Eldar. Eonwe is teaching Kendo and who knows what else. They got all the gifts the Powers had the authority to give. Numenor is as close as humans can safely dwell to the Ainur. And, what followed: Splendor, Arrogance, Contempt, and then Tyranny and the fall (or sail) to utter ruin, just as it did for Melkor, Sauron, and Feanor in their turn. Thus the recipients of the Land of Gift repaid the generosity of the Valar with sacrilege and war. At the very least the Istari were a different approach that did not sink the lands West of the Anduin into the sea. So, progress?

@samanthafox3124

2 жыл бұрын

*their, its

14:00 yeah well, if I was Finrod I’d still have a few things to say about how the Valar responded to humans. They didn’t even bother to try and find us before Morgoth did. He would probably point out that one of the elves (himself, his sister etc) could have been sent as an emissary to Hildorien: and that if that messenger had arrived before Morgoth’s servants did, then humans would be a lot less easy to corrupt. At least bothering to inform the people that hey, this thing that looks like a terrible curse is actually not, would have gone a loooong way. Finrod is pretty much solely responsible for the fact that *any* humans stayed faithful at all. But all he could do was run damage-control, Morgoth had already gotten to them. First encounter bias is a thing, people are more likely to remember the information that they heard first. If the Valar had at least made an effort to get there first, humans would have been a lot more skeptical of Sauron later on. Elves are so resistant to the temptations of evil precisely because the Valar got there first. If the Valar feared they were hazardous to our health, there was no requirement that they come personally. Just ya know, send someone to prove that they actually existed and might care just a little. Although I have plenty of reason to think that excuse is BS, not least of which is that Eönwë fought alongside humans in the War of Wrath apparently without any misshaps (and in addition, showed up in Númenor without any misshaps). Also, Húrin doesn’t seem to suffer any ill effects from Melian going angel-mode on him in order to cleanse him of Morgoth’s influence. Nor does Theoden seem to suffer any ill effects when Gandalf does the same thing. Finally, Frodo does not suffer from seeing Glórfindel’s naked spirit in the Unseen World. Granted that Glórfindel may not technically be an Aino, but he certainly has the same power level: so if it is just a question of power then he would count as one. Though perhaps this argument no longer holds if it a question of soul type rather than power level.

@sainiharika

Жыл бұрын

I totally absolutely agree. I feel the same. It’s lot of negligence. Men don’t even know whether Eru or Valar exist. They do t care to give the message of care to men. Atleast that was enough. Only Ulmo interferes with Tuor. It would come a long way if Valar actually interacted if not interfered with men so that it would be easy for men to discern between good n evil.

@mingthan7028

11 ай бұрын

That's why Valar are not infallible.

@mingthan7028

11 ай бұрын

​@@sainiharikaAt least Eru spoke and tried to help the Men when they first awoke

I believe that some of Tolkien's later writings in Morgoth's Ring claim that the Valar were actually uncertain about their ability to defeat Morgoth in Beleriand because as a cosmic force of awesome power he was still more powerful than all of them. It had to come after he'd weakened himself by spreading out his power and diminishing as a result. The Noldor and friends were actually facilitating that by holding him in check in a small corner of the world. So the coming of Earendil was a providential sign to the Valar themselves that the time had finally come. Plus, the Valar immediately squashing Morgoth would be as riveting a story as the Eagles flying Frodo to Mt Doom lol. I think the grand storyteller hinself, Illuvatar, would agree. I love that in Tolkien's world, the problem of evil is just as operative as it is in our world. Even though Middle earth definately has a real god, this is still a fundamental question that humans cant comprehend.

@TheRedBook

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, that's not even necessarily in later writings. Some of it was just left out of the edited Silmarillion. There is a moment when the Valar are apprehensive about assaulting Morgoth for the sake of the Elves, because of the power they know he holds. It then comes to it and Manwe confronts Morgoth. It's a great moment when both realise that Morgoth is diminishing. Morgoth can now be physically assailed, when he couldn't before, and Morgoth can see by the look of Manwe that things have changed. It really should have been in the book but is now in HoMe.

@istari0

3 жыл бұрын

I don't think it was so much that Melkor was more powerful than the other Valar put together than that 1) Melkor could destroy the works of the Valar as fast as they could make them simply because it is easier to destroy than to create 2) None of the Valar were powerful warriors, at least by whatever standards the Valar judge such things by, until Tulkas came to Arda.

This topic is so massive that it would rather fit to discuss it on Discord or Reddit. For now, I wanted to challenge Tolkien's statement that Manwë was the wisest being in Arda by another Tolkien quote from Morgoth's Ring: "Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwe that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it" Another point worth discussing: was it justified for Eonwe to basically accept Sauron fleeing further into Middle-Earth? Was he the only one of Morgoth's disciples that surrendered, or were the Balrogs to be destroyed even if laying down their weapons or retreating? You could argue that respecting Sauron's free will here comes at the massive cost of the wishes of future generations of men, who in turn disrespect Sauron's free will (he did not want to be destroyed), so how can allowing Sauron to become the 2nd dark lord be justified when the Valar later send the Istari to render Sauron less free anyway? It seems a bit inconsistent to me.

@TheRedBook

3 жыл бұрын

With Sauron, he approached Eonwe to plead for pardon. Eonwe said he could not judge Sauron as they were of the same order, so he had to return to Valinor for judgement. He then fled out of fear and shame. He grew in power again and the Valar did not want to repeat the War of Wrath. It was only when he was going to rise again that they sent the Istari but not to take on Sauron themselves, but to allow the people of Middle earth the chance to defeat him. I definitely do not say the Valar are perfect in all of this, but I would definitely agree that sending help like the Istari on the 2nd age may have been a good idea. Though, Sauron was still ultimately defeated... So the plan worked anyway and maybe that was how it was meant to be?

@TheRedBook

3 жыл бұрын

Would you welcome a video explaining why Melkor was given so many chances? I think that's an interesting topic too.

@Crafty_Spirit

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheRedBook Sure mate, sounds great :-) On 2nd chances and why no one ever seems to change for the better in the history of Arda.

@Crafty_Spirit

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheRedBook ... and that situation by the way may also indicate that the Valar themselves were absent in the War of Wrath? Another one of these nagging questions 😅

@margaritamarin7526

2 жыл бұрын

​@@Crafty_Spirit If I remember rightly, that is correct. The Valar sent their armies of Elves and Maiar, including their mightiest like Eönwë, but did not come themselves. This limited damage to the world, and ensured that Morgoth was matched against with the appropriate level of power (as he was far, far weaker than he used to be).

I think your points about the more and more subtle form of help from the Valar over time show that even they were able to grow in wisdom. I also would point out that pretty much every time the eagles show up it is an at the bidding of Manwë. I feel the same applies to the changing of the wind just when Aragorn needed it to bring the Corsair’s ship to Minas Tirith just in time. There is no wasted energy on the part of the Valar in the third age as there was in the War of Wrath. That huge amount of energy and power was just too much for the very earth to contain. They learned from that to be more subtle. Eru gave all his creations a chance to grow in wisdom. Or not if they do chose. Thanks for a great video!

Well done and pondered. Your Tolkien explorations are the most thoughtful and insightful I have discovered on the Internets, and are rendered in beautifully atmospheric ways. This is an especially important treatment because it dovetails with some of the core belief systems at work in Tolkien’s own spiritual journey, his devout Catholicism, but also his willingness to imagine supernatural roles outside dogmatic Catholicism within the context of his fantastical, historical, sociological, and linguistically derived portrayals. As a Master of Arts in ancient Christian Patristic theology and especially Byzantine development in tandem with that ecclesiology in Late Antiquity, I have always sensed that Tolkien (who would have been quite aware of such themes) incorporated some of the proto-orthodox Christian strains of belief (stemming from the 2nd, 3rd, and early 4th Centuries) into his panorama of Valinor and Middle Earth and its denizens. There are what might be called esoteric elements in Tolkien’s delineation of the Valar, I believe, as Demi-Urge and Archon-type figures who, quite apart from the One supreme, ineffable force (Eru) were given the freedom to shape the world Eru empowered and “called into essential, if not complete, existence” according to *their* gifts. This is a responsibility rather more complex and delegated than the Catholic Christian role ascribed, ultimately, to the angelic hierarchies, who, in the coalescence of Orthodoxy were strictly limited to roles as messengers, attendants, and governmental roles over various earthly nations strictly according to God’s already established creation. Of course, there existed the issue of rebellious angelic beings (e.g. Lucifer-who was not portrayed early in Judaic tradition as an enemy, but rather as a necessary accuser and ally of God who served his purpose to highlight the faithlessness of God’s people. This is a huge dichotomy from his later relegation to an evil corrupter and enemy of all that is/was good.) Before this became the Orthodox bedrock belief in the 5th Centuries and beyond, there was a great diversity of opinion among Christian sects as to the roles played by the angels, and this was manifest, as well, in ancient Jewish esoterica. In these “Gnostic” circles (“Gnostic” being an increasingly emic and outdated scholarly term) the angelic beings were not mere managers and stewards of God’s vast creation, but they were active participants in the creation of the physical world itself, according to their gifts. For example, one predominant esoteric myth from the 2nd and 3rd century Christian circles has the Demi-Urge (or the Archon) actually *creating* the physical Adam of its own power, but unable to make Adam move or breathe or be animate. The one God fulfills that role in the myth, imparting life and spirit, but it is made clear that the work was a collaborative effort and not entirely according to God’s intentional blueprint, as it were. Other angelic beings likewise occupied roles of power over creation according to their own dispositions and inclinations (hints of this are even present in Old Testament writings and a few New Testament passages that esoteric groups latched onto to support their positions-all of which were upheld in order to better explain the exasperation question of a “good” God who created a world rife with suffering and treachery and torment. Again, the Valar seem to occupy this earlier, more intensive role in Tolkien’s work as actual creators and embellishers of the nascent, unformed “world” that Eru had fashioned but had not completed. The Valar were not mere watchers and sentinels and overseers. Quite the opposite. They were lesser god-figures, with some of them (Melkor and Aule) managing to work secret achievements in wholly creative ways that went against Eru’s mysterious plan, e.g. Aule’s creation of the dwarves. After the colossal betrayals of Melkor and the tribulations with Numenor and the sundering of the world by Eru himself, the faithful Valar kept a distance and played more of a careful, considered, wisdom-infused role in their guardian ship of Middle Earth. I belief Tolkien contrived this to emphasize that, after the Valar had essentially created the various physical aspects of the world as they saw fit, and that it had beauty, they stepped back and realized that the freedom of its peoples was the cost of true creation and Destiny. Their graces could still be invoked (as we see throughout Tolkien’s tales) but after the militant battle/expulsion of Morgoth, the Valar stepped back and provided divine interventions (such as the Istari) that would inspire goodness along the lines of Eru’s mysterious plan, rather than interfere by force of great power and thus compromise the crucial element of freedom required by a world that was to be inherited by Men. This is why the magical efforts of the Istari (at least by Gandalf and Radagast) were more subtle and displayed only when these powers might inspire men to pursue their own paths, rather than puppeteering them into various actions and directions. While Tolkien drew unquestionably from European mythologies to craft his epic masterwork, he also (I believe) drew upon themes in proto-Orthodox Christian tradition to color the personalities and prerogatives of the Valar themselves. And he did this with astounding brilliance. I remain in awe of what shall surely be an enduring-and very real, important-mythology of human understanding and tradition in times to come.

Thanks for this video. It addresses where all mythologies fail in my opinion. They call it “wisdom” for an all-powerful, omniscient character (in this case, Eru Iluvatar) to allow suffering into the world they created. I call that cruelty, not “wisdom.” And Manwe and the Valar allow the same suffering to happen for thousands of years too.

I might add the fun note that it is the weaker of the Ainur, the Maiar, who most directly and openly aid the weaker Children in the end. Not least of which is Melian, and Melian's Ring which is her line among countless men who are at the center of the greatest institutions to resist Sauron.

Yet another knock out of the ol' park, Mr. Steven! If you continue to find the time and have the inclination, PLEASE continue to produce these EXCELLENT videos!!!

Great channel , dealing with the more specific points that are overlooked by so many - I'm impressed . I'd love to hear your take on the the hairs of Galadriel being made into a crystal and kept as an heirloom by Gimli's house . Is this a new Silmaril in a sense ? . I think people focus on the the kinship shown in the act , but Tolkien was meticulous - I think it may be a foreshadowing of the fourth and fifth age . Anyway - thanks for the great channel - Aesthetic and understanding . Keep it going man.

Superb commentary. Tolkien was a devout Catholic and thus was blessed with wisdom and insight in his writings.

@Vito_Tuxedo

Жыл бұрын

@duduts ulug ulugan - With all due respect, I must take issue with your use of "thus", as though all devout Catholicism practitioners are necessarily "blessed with wisdom and insight". In my own experience, it is true that some devout Catholics are indeed wise and insightful. Knowing them has enriched my life. Unfortunately, that is not universally true. I have known many who consider themselves devout Catholics whose behavior is the antithesis of wisdom. That condition is not limited to my own experience. The Inquisitions were conducted by "devout Catholics". If your own experience is different, consider yourself fortunate. I credit Tolkien himself with the wisdom and insight in his writings. If any of those qualities were inspired by his Catholicism, that is also to his credit. There are many others who have taken the same teachings and used them as a justification to cause great harm to others, something I do not believe Tolkien ever would have condoned.

Good stuff as always. It’s also worth noting that while it’s easy to complain about the inactivity of the Valar, it’s not so easy to come up with a better plan given the rules of the world as we know them.

Definitely one of your best episodes. Excellent study and analysis. I feel like I learned a lot of new insight.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks a lot Dane. A lot of people don't seem to give the Valar the time of day but I think as a group they are very interesting to analyse, especially when it comes to their role in Middle-earth. I hope to cover more about them.

A downvote one and a half minutes after uploading a fourteen minute long video? Someone is eager :P ...

@TolkienLorePodcast

3 жыл бұрын

Already got your first hater eh? 😂

@TheRedBook

3 жыл бұрын

@@TolkienLorePodcast I don't know whether I should be honoured that someone cares so much :D

@Syntheconductor

3 жыл бұрын

I love this content! It’s a great discussion starter in my friend group

@LordWyatt

2 жыл бұрын

A month later and only two downvotes👌

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Might be due to lack of views 😂

I knew this topic had to be on this philosophic channel, still nice to see another video on the Red Book, Already hyped for the next!

@TheRedBook

3 жыл бұрын

Is there anything you'd be interested in seeing? I have a ridiculously long list of ideas and I'm always up for adding more to it!

@ellanenish5999

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheRedBook I would love a cover upon Atrabeth Finrod ah Andreth if I wrote it right, it does cover a lot of more philosophic aspects of Universe fitting for the purpose of this channel, but you who choose the content for the videos so I'm always waiting for more whatever it is

@TheRedBook

3 жыл бұрын

@@ellanenish5999 good idea! I have written a two part video (well almost finished) and the first part focuses on that. It's basically a video about the fall of man. I think you'd like it then. Again, as i say to everyone, I've not arranged a schedule. Though, this will appear at some point :D

@conniestone6251

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheRedBook How about the story of Ulmo, past and possible future? He is the only vala to never forsake the Eruhíni and stayed actively engaged (even in small ways) with their situations. And this was often at the chagrin of the other Ainur. I personally think that Ulmo would have an exceedingly large role in the future and potential End of Arda… what do you think?

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

I don't do story/history videos as that is covered exhaustively by other channels. I'd certainly be interested in doing something related to Ulmo though. Perhaps, as you say, it could be about his relationship with those dwelling in Middle-earth and the role he has played. I will make a note of that.

Just one look at how much the world.changes every time the Valar directly intervene is enough proof for me that they were right to keep their distance after Morgoth was defeated in the War of Wrath.

This was an amazing and profound reflection on this story. Thank you for this.

Great video, as usual, Steven! Regarding presence of the Valar in Middle-Earth, what do you think of the headcanon that it was Ulmo that brought Boromir's funeral boat to Faramir? I remember reading about it somewhere on Quora.

@TheRedBook

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks, Anna, and to be honest...I don't really have a thought on that one way or the other. I've discovered that people who have their own "headcanon" seem quite defensive of it and there's no convincing them it could be wrong anyway. It's just the same as people taking one or two lines about Ulmo and then saying he's the one who sent them the dreams. I don't think there's much to go on, but I guess that's why they call it headcanon cause it's just how people read it.

My own opinion on this, is that Manwe andthe Valar are not wise at all. If you look at their actions, they clearly make it look as if the elves are favoured. They went to war with Melkor, when he started tampering with the elves, yet left men to break his hold themselves, they went to war again, when an elven prince asked for help. The Valar built a garden of Eden for the elves to live in for eternity. Men had to clean up the mess the Valar left in middle-earth in the servants of Morgoth, they left behind. Sauron was mighty in comparison to mortals, but Tulkas by himself could have destroyed Sauron, with his ring. Sauron is a loose end the Valar did not tie up, they could not get their house in order and men are expected to do it for them. I can understand why the men of Numeneour fell into resentment, it feels like elves are given every bit grace and chance, without earning it, despite rebelling against the Valar. When men rebelled against the Valar, they were destroyed and made homeless, the winds and sea are controlled by the Valar, they simply could have stopped the ships from landing. Men seem to have to earn their happiness in middle earth. If you look at the amount of suffering there is in middle earth, men definitely get the lion’s share of it.

@aldiascholarofthefirstsin1051

2 жыл бұрын

This is my favorite opinion.

Thank you. As illuminating as always. But it seems to me that free will is not boundless in Middle Earth. As evidence I cite FoTR, Chapter 2 - "The Shadow of the Past". "Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it." "Meant to find the Ring", suggests interference in the operation of free will on the part of the Valar, because who else could have meant Bilbo to find it? I guess free will might have allowed Bilbo to not pick it up but that doesn't seem to be the implication of Gandalf's words to Frodo. I'd be interested to see you explore these ideas further.

@TheRedBook

3 жыл бұрын

This is not Intervention on the part of the Valar but a reference to Providence. Gandalf is saying that the "chance" that has led to Bilbo finding the ring and Frodo inheriting the ring are soothing reminders that something else may be taking place, something beyond the thought of figures like Sauron. Just like the Council of Elrond, a "chance" meeting. It does not mean the free will of those beings was overruled to force them to go...providence can be, tricky to dissect.

@andrewwood7580

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheRedBook Then perhaps you need to do the dissection. In Christian theology, I would understand providence as being God-driven or God -guided. Providence can't just be a random influence. Providence doesn't equal chance. Tolkien certainly wouldn't have understood it as such. In which case, somebody/something is driving the operation of providence in Middle Earth. And what can that be other than the Valar? Or Eru Illuvatar? Don't get me wrong. I love your work and find your take on the legendarium interesting and stimulating. Looking forward to you expanding on this theme.

@TheRedBook

3 жыл бұрын

@@andrewwood7580 that's what I'm saying, it is God, the ultimate plan. It's not divine intervention though. Its the fulfilment of the plan. Its like saying Eru pushed Gollum, as in physically made him fall, which he didn't, but fate is in the purview of Eru and that's what "took over". That's why they always say "if chance you call it" because it's something greater.

This is a great video. One area I think you jumped over too quickly is the song that was sung prior to the Valar going down into the world. If the likes of Ungoliant are a product of Melkor's singing, and Eru willed that the song be made manifest, and Eru has ultimate power over the song... Tolkien's discussion of the 'mode' of history being that evil leads to greater good - you can basically pick a dictator and use the same defence. It's a perfect explanation of Manwe's perspective, but the conclusion seems equally clear; Eru was evil. He allowed the evils and will of Melkor to infect the song, which he knew would lead to literal ages of darkness, under the justification that all the evil will eventually lead to a very nice society (for those few who survive)...

I never thought I would accept this, but this explanation is truth. Good needs to be born out of defeating evil. N even though it takes going through aeons of oppression n servitude n dark sorcery n siphoning etc, it’s worth it. Like this is how Eru envisioned it to be. It sucks but this is gift of men. It’s for maximum spiritual growth of men n all of Arda. It’s tough love.

What Gandolf spoke to Frodo...telling him how he was meant to find the ring and how everyone had a part to play giving him an encouraging thought. From Manwe to Melchior they all had a part to play before Illuvatar even gave thought.

How nice to have found you here Steven. Like your stuff on Quora and frankly I like You tube better for Tolkien as info is presented. But much more work for you! So much to consider with this subject and you have presented it well!

@TheRedBook

3 жыл бұрын

Nice to see you here, and I agree... I like writing, but being able to present information on this was has been very enjoyable so far!

Its all started with the big guy creating in the very beginning a flawed Valar{Eru fault alone! haha} - Melkor and allowing him to participate in the team effort creating the universe in general and the Middle Earth in particular... A reccurent theme in countless variations found in just about any religion around the globe .As for the Powers staying in the Middle Earth that would have hampered the lesser sentient races fun with such overwhelming presence looming over them constantly, that was the main reason many elves to leave for the Middle Earth Silmarils or not and only when super tired and/or corrupted by the influence of the mortal realm after many thousands of years dwelling there geting back to Valinor.Many actually did not partake in the first journey anyway.Galadriel reasoning to stay after the final defeat of Morgoth was mainly that finally with all greater elfs dead in the struggles of the First and Second age she was about to play Queen for couple of thousand years. In conclusion is much better to be Ainur or elf{immortal} than lowly human or dwarf in this or any other fantasy world but its not up to us little mortals to choose.

Niiiiiiiiiice! We don't talk nearly enough about the Valar and their role in Middle-Earth. :)

I always look at this conundrum of why doesn't God just save everyone from Evil as this; your parents help you the best they can to set you on a path towards a good,happy life, but at some point they have to stop intervention, stop getting you of binds, saving you from yourself and others. God or whatever you may believe in wants to let their creations express their free will and learn from their mistakes, learn to take care of themselves and others. We would never learn to do this, learn to appreciate our existence if it was always fixed and repaired by an unknown creator or force, there's no meaning to either we or God this way. I'm sure my point is muddled and my grammar awful but I'm doing this quickly and have to go, my main point is the whole why does God let evil happen is one of the dumbest questions to ask, there are plenty of holes to poke in that logic, have a great day everyone.

The Valar, and more concretely Eru Ilúvatar have always been problematic characters to me. Maybe because I'm an atheist I don't entirely buy their role as models of virtue and goodness, especially when they engage in attitudes and actions that to me are blatantly not good and not virtuous. I can't say I entirely blame Men, or even Melkor or Sauron for growing resentful of the Valar and of Eru himself when the promise of fulfillment of their ultimate role in the history of the World was always put beyond their reach. It feels like a form of gaslighting. "I'm the parent, you are the child, and I know what's best for you". Tolkien built his legendarium around his own religious faith, and that's how he tried to explain the problem of evil. Like you said, I can understand his rationale, but I don't necessarily agree with it.

A new video and here I am!

It’s all good and well for “them” to claim that’s why they didn’t do what needed to be done, but try telling that to the innumerable innocents who died and suffered horribly in the meantime. Also, sauron didn’t have the power to cause the kind of destruction that morgoth did, and a single valar could have walked in, manhandled, and even lay sauron over their knee and spanked his bare butt in front of all middle earth, picked him up by the scruff, and carry him off. Sauron couldn’t destroy the land, like morgoth could. I mean, maybe he could do something like crush/blow up/affect a mile of land, or 2, or something small, and he could slowly, over time, raise a tower, or huge wall, but he didn’t have the power to reshape the land, or do anything quickly, or that couldn’t easily be undone by any of the valar. Now, if a single full powered wizard took him on, maybe an extended battle causing damage to a small area would take place, IF sauron was at full power, with his ring, but he was SUPER weak, then, so 1 full powered istari could have done just what I mentioned a valar could do to him, in his current war of the ring-state, and at his full power, with the ring, the 5 full powered istari could still easily wipe the floor with him, without causing ANY damage, other than to his land. All that being said, I understand the point Tolkien made about us not understanding the greater needs, but at the same time, as a mortal who can’t understand the greater need, one has every right to be furious about being abandoned, from their understanding, or even just point of view! It’s a 2sided coin. A very DIFFICULT 2 sided coin!

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

There's quite a lot here I disagree with but I'd be writing pages in response. I suppose what I disagree with most is the use of these words 'power' and 'powerful' which are so vague. Your thoughts here seem to me that you see Sauron as being weak without the One Ring and "at full power" with the One Ring. This is really not how it all works. Sauron is not weak at all without the One Ring. He's just not 'enhanced'. Sauron without the ring is still Sauron, Sauron with the One Ring is Sauron with enhanced 'power' on earth. This is what makes it confusing when you speak of "full powered Istari". By their very nature, they aren't. They are cloaked in the very real flesh of Men and have their wisdom and power diminished in some way so they can treat with Elves and Men on more equal footing, while still not being equal, but closer than if they approached them in some majestic raiment with their full strength revealed. Still, the crux of the issue as your response hints at is the problem of evil. Those with apparently the power and authority to do something to stop evil. Why wouldn't they? It's why we still debate this today.

The biggest problem with the Valar is they did not understand evil and those who would wield it as a weapon. This is why they foolishly paroled Melkor.

I wonder what would have happened if only Tulkas or Orome came to confront Sauron? Surely either would have been more than a match for even a very potent Maia like Sauron, and the damage to Middle-Earth would be minimal compared to all the Valar coming at once.

So the valar knew only of the wrecking ball approach, whereas the miar were more of teachers of surgical strike tactics and subtle strategic warfare.

I think eru did all this to find the balance. That will be the new music, a world perfectly balanced.

The Valar intervened directly when it was a Vala wreaking havoc. When it was a Maia they sent Maiar. Why would they bother with a rogue Maia when ultimately it isn't a threat to them at all? If Melkor were to go back they would get involved directly again.

Where do you get your music? It's so soothing and fitting. 😌

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

I always link to the music I use in the video description. I tend to filter it out for atmospheric/cinematic and sometimes scary/sad or melancholic - it's why I use a lot of the same songs - they just seem to work.

11:46 _"...we are talking about the problem of evil, free will, and allowing free beings to set their own course. With Men free from being tied to the world, to shape it for them is to act like Melkor, one who actively attempts to force his will on the race of men and others. This is seen as one of the greatest acts of evil that is possible in Tolkien's world. Abuse of power, daunting the independence of others through your superior will."_ In other words, politicians and bureaucrats, whose coercion is sanctified by legality. I know, I know...it is heresy to speak such things. After all, Our Elected Leaders are simply instruments of Our Great Democratic Institutions. Sounds like a religion to me...the elevation of an authority that is not to be questioned. Well, I question it. In fact, I repudiate it. What good is it to have a _Declaration of Independence_ that is ignored not only by the so-called leaders, but by the great masses of people who interminably clamor for more control of their lives by unquestioned authority, losing their freedom in the process? If they have read Tolkien, either they have missed his perspective of "one of the greatest acts of evil" - controlling the lives of others against their will, depriving them of their freedom to choose - or they reject it. The deepest and most insidious form of slavery is one in which the slave is the maker of his own shackles. We believe we are free because we have the freedom to choose our tyrants. This is perhaps one of the most profound analyses I have heard on The Red Book. It is one that speaks directly to the core problem of civilization today - namely, that the price of freedom is taking responsibility for your own choices. People say they want freedom, but they sell it cheaply to the empty promises of con men (and, sadly, women) who have the arrogance to believe they will not be corrupted by the power they seek. We cannot vote our problems away. Those who seek power are the least qualified to have it. It is a lesson that the vast majority of humanity has yet to learn.

It's just the classic Catholic formulation of the Problem of Evil. "The Lord works in mysterious ways...". If anyone other than Eru would have done this, we would rightly have judged them. Eru (and the Valar who claim to know his Mind) escapes judgement simply by default. He is the Judge, he cannot be judged.

@durshurrikun150

3 жыл бұрын

Or he's just an hearthless and cruel creator, just like his most powerful creation. After all, the god of the abramitic religion is a monster and a cruel being. If the devil is evil, the god his creator is the absolute evil. And those who follow him and actively impose their faith upon others are evil as well and are enemies of humanity. And thus must be hunted down and wiped out. That's one of the reason i support communism: communism is an enemy of abramitic religions and wants to destroy them, that's an holy fight. The inhuman followers of the abramitic religions must be punished for their crimes.

@tominiowa2513

2 жыл бұрын

@@durshurrikun150 - Maybe you are correct, since Communism has never been tried (a false version which was actually Bolshevism* was tried with disastrous results, maybe to discredit real communism). *The three triplet scourges of the 20th Century (all funded by Wall Street and City of London): Bolshevism, Fascism, and [Redacted]ism. All share a well hidden Satanic ideology, while convincing most that they are something else.

Would you say that the Valar only intervene directly to protect the Children of Illuvatar when they cannot protect themselves? For instance the War for Sake of the Elves, the elves are more or less children (analogically) . Then in the War of Wrath, the race of Men, while not totally children (especially the Edain who crossed into Beleriand), they were still far from their rise to power. As we know without the Valar’s intervention in that war, the elves could not have overthrown Morgoth, and Men would never have the chance to come to their full power and wisdom. Then after his downfall and the rise of Numenor, direct intervention was less necessary, especially since Sauron was not so strong he could not be overthrown by Men and the Elves who remained in Middle-Earth. That’s my thinking, anyway.

@andrewprice8820

2 жыл бұрын

Also for sure I agree about not intervening with the race of Men more than Elves, due to the nature of Men and perhaps the fact that the Ainur’s vision of the world stopped before the Dominion of Men and the fading of the Firstborn.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

When it came to the War for the Sake of the Elves, it was certainly due to their awakening and Melkor residing in Middle-earth. They awoke to a world where he was instantly attempting to corrupt them. The Valar would feel it was their duty to help the Children, to give them a chance to enjoy and explore the world that they themselves shaped for them. It wasn't right to allow them to be born into a world where evil could just dominate them instantly. However, the War of Wrath is a bit more tricky. I wouldn't necessarily say it was completely related to Men on their own but a plea from he who belonged to both kindreds. It was a plea for mercy and pity, for those Elves who left Valinor against the wishes of the Valar AND for the race of Men who were friends with them and coming into their own. After that, the Valar take the approach where they become less relevant as the world goes beyond taking shape to being ruled and ordered by those dwelling within it. The longer the world exists, the less they will intervene as their role was to help shape and to guide. Their intervention becomes more subtle.

What child is better equipped to take on the world? One with helicopter parents, who shield him from all consqiences and anything bad or one whose parents provide support and guidance but allow the child the freedom to make their own decisions?

Much like with our world, when you hear someone say "Why doesn't God get rid of all the bad things? Does He not care?", its just an ignorant statement/lack of understanding. God did not create automatons with no free will. He created beings with free will and things must play out until His return. It all Glorifies God regardless. The good AND the bad.

why would the valar ever believe morgoth could or would ever change his ways ? its inbuilt into him. but when golum bit the ring from frodos fingers maybe there was a little unseen servant spirit from the valar there just to give him a little nudge that caused him to fall into the lava ?

@TheRedBook

Жыл бұрын

It was basically the duty of the Valar to give anyone a chance for redemption. If Melkor said he had changed, then they had to allow him the opportunity to prove he had. They couldn't lower themselves to his level. That is until he went far enough that even Eru gave them His blessing to deal with him directly.

I have a son. Many times I try to teach him things. Sometimes I let him learn things. Figuring out which and when is a life’s journey. Methinks Tolkien says “let em learn sometimes.”

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly, it's the only way to grow and not have the "child" rely on the parent for all time.

Intervention by the Gods keeps their creations forever children.

The relationship between the creator and his gods is similar to sumerian pantheons. The idea that the chief of the gods represents the sky and is in contact with the creator who resides beyond the world in the heavens. Your comment about modernising Tolien. Would you say he was using older myths as a foundation for his contemporary myths? The ancient myths he used were disparate while his myth was a lot more cohesive. Is this modernising the method of creating myths - one voice vs many over different generations? Not contradicting your point but your videos are filled with such great insight ideas just spring forth and bounce around! Thought I'd bounce one back.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Nothing wrong if you were contradicting my points anyway. We all have our views and opinions and I would never claim to be "the authority" on Tolkien. I think there's a bit of using established myth and tradition as the basis but then he mixed in some traditions you wouldn't expect to be mixed in. For example, the fact Eru exists and the Valar exist makes many think of Olympus or something similar, but it seems closer to the Demiurge to me. One creator and then those who fashion, shape, and maintain beneath. 'gods' with a lower case g. Part of this is Tolkien's shift from a "mythology for England" approach. The older the text in the Legendarium, the more mysterious it is, the closer we can tie it the paganistic traditions. As he continued and strayed from that original motive, it involves his own beliefs more and it seems that many people find more problems with this than the older text. Justifying the behaviour of Eru and the Valar. Which is very difficult to do if you aren't religious in my opinion!

@MrBernardthecow

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheRedBook It is self defeating to justify or even try explain fictional gods. Their inexplicable nature is their nature and Tolkien did well to leave so many gaps in their actions and intentions as he did. Great videos by the way. I have started from the first video and working through them.

There is a fine line between neglect and coddling I guess.

Tolkien's argument is heavily informed by Catholic apologetics, which seek to explain away real world evil and suffering as part of "God's plan" that humans can't understand. I wish he had chosen polytheism for his fictional world so analogies to actual religious doctrine would be less obvious. Great analysis though.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

It's interesting to imagine just what would have changed had he gone the pantheon route with no "The One" at the top. Sons of the Valar and similar ideas. The whole idea behind things like the Gift of Men could have been completely changed.

@sophiejones3554

2 жыл бұрын

You know there are many many real polytheists right?

@Monkismo

2 жыл бұрын

@@sophiejones3554 Of course, but they are usually not portrayed as omnipotent or omniscient as is "God," so apologetics don't play the same role.

@Enerdhil

2 жыл бұрын

I am not Catholic, but I can tell you that "God's plan" is everything he does to reconcile mankind to him after the Fall of Man in the Garden of Eden.

What i never understood is why Manwe allowed Melkor to be free after his imprisonment. I've heard it presented in videos as due to a lack of understanding of Melkors nature, which would not make sense if he was the wisest being in the world.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Good question Chris. I promise that such a video is going to appear on the channel at some point. I've been doing several "redemption" videos - notably Feanor and the Ringwraiths. I will definitely be doing one on Manwe and Melkor, and why he was allowed to go free and commit evil acts. I don't want to write it all out here but I'm sure you'd prefer a video on this matter.

@rhythmicmusicswap4173

2 жыл бұрын

form me it was a mistake making Mnawe the king of the valar ,hoew can someone be a good leader if he doesn't understand evil? it'n not winsdom, it's dangerous naivety

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

He had to experience evil to understand what it was. Evil didn't exist as a concept until Melkor's actions.

Hello there First😉

sometimes foreshadowing is relatively obvious....

It’s a very Catholic understanding of the problem of pain.

If elves and men where left to there own devises one would have destroyed the other. They needed a common enemy to fight, that being the corruption of morgoth.

The Valar are a little like Sauron 😂😂😂 just sitting there