This is the writing advice I didn't know I needed.

@erikaroth6049

4 жыл бұрын

Yess

@Tiyev

4 жыл бұрын

This is most of the writing advice I knew I needed, because I have no idea which combination, or combinations, of perspective and tense are best for my character and stories... I wish the last part of this video was expanded more, even though I know it is ultimately my job to figure out what perspective and tense I should use. Every combination of perspective and tense opens some doors and closes others as far as what you can do...

It’s so bizarre to me hearing you talk about how you thought 3rd person was the harder one and the more mature one, for me it’s the exact opposite. I usually default to 3rd person because it’s so much easier and simpler for me to be an omniscient narrator than to accurately capture the thoughts, emotions and internal dialogue of a primary character for the entire duration of the story. It feels so cumbersome because I can’t just tell the story, I have to filter everything through that character’s singular experience and point of view, then have to filter it again through how they individually perceive things in their own subjective way. For me 3rd person is much easier because it’s just me going, “This is what happened” and not having to always elaborate or extrapolate on the main character’s biased and limited perception of these events. Weird.

@user-mr1qw2bl6w

3 жыл бұрын

I feel similarly to the way you do. I enjoy writing in third person because it allows me to write in whatever way I feel best encompasses the scene, regardless of how the character would view it. I can still describe the characters' reactions, but it's far enough removed that the reader can tell where the character's emotions start to cloud their judgement. One of the main characters in the novel I'm working on is disconnected from her own feelings and labels other characters by 1-2 personality traits that she doesn't really allow them to work outside of, so it would be difficult to show the seriousness of her situation or the complexity of the other characters if I were stuck in her head the whole time. What's weird is I used to write primarily in first person, but now it's the POV I never even consider writing from.

@darkengine5931

Жыл бұрын

​@@user-mr1qw2bl6w I think I'm the polar opposite of you guys finding 1st person so much easier (especially retrospectives, as though the writing reflects journal entries). That's not to say I'm more skillful at it being a total neophyte to writing and lacking much writing skill in general, but it comes more easily and intuitively to me. The main reason I find 3rd person so difficult is that I feel like the narrator has to be far more observant and know a whole lot more than any single character ever would. For example, a character who isn't well-educated might only refer to a complex contraption as a "thingamajig" in first person (after all, it's basically like the character's own dialogue) as well as communicating, in a thick dialect, how it offends them that people have grown so reliant on such "thingamajigs". When I'm writing in 3rd person, I feel the need for the narrator to precisely specify what it is and describe some details about it in a neutral and reasonably intelligent fashion. When the narrator is bright and observant like this, I tend to feel the need to research endlessly and I get lost in "Encyclopedia mode". I get caught up in details like the precise mechanics of a combustion engine, the way buildings are constructed, botany to describe plants, and so forth. Of course, I'd be quite overwhelmed if I had to write in 1st person the thoughts of a quantum physicist. Then I'd feel the need to research quantum physics endlessly and perhaps even befriend a quantum physicist to observe how he/she talks so that I can role-play one semi-convincingly to a target audience. Most of the time I use the 1st person perspective of more ordinary characters who aren't so bright and observant for that very reason. It allows my not-so-bright character to, say, refer to a Bald Cypress as "Some sort of giant tree growing out of the swamp with needley leaves and mossy branches". I can pass off my own lack of knowledge about botany as being in alignment with the character's lack of knowledge given that they are also the narrator of their own story.

I'm a young writer, and I just discovered your channel. You motivate me a lot, thank you!

@bodine219

2 жыл бұрын

I hope you’re still at it :)

Me: here's 29 minutes of detailed analysis on POV People in the comments: I'm Really Mad about the 2 seconds where you said gender was a spectrum. unsubscribing.

@J.W.Ellenhall.BookLover

3 жыл бұрын

I love all your videos. Just stay you because you're awesome.

@theshepherd6930

3 жыл бұрын

don't say that, it's not that bad lol. most comments say it's a great video, and it is!

@irispetal

2 жыл бұрын

i subscribed immediately when i heard that actually

@hpmedia9489

2 жыл бұрын

It is a great video although not entirely accurate but still no reason for anyone in the comments or you to get mad🤷🏽‍♂️

@saraphicseer5982

2 жыл бұрын

@@irispetal hard same.

Shaelin, thank you for sharing your experience and gathered knowledge with us. Your channel has incredible value to all of us out here aspiring writers. I love how you lens your information through how it's impacted your work and process. Never stop sharing :)

@ShaelinWrites

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks so much!

it’s such a relief to hear you talk positively about third person present. i’ve been struggling deciding between 3rd present & past. and i’ve mostly been struggling because EVERYONE talks very negatively about it. but third person present is the right choice, because the past itself is still an active force/role/character in the story. also, i disagree about having an unreliable narrator in 3rd person. characters with mental illness, issues with addiction, and other reality processing problems would be unreliable, even in their own head. thank you for the video!! it was very helpful. ❤️

Second person has been my favorite point of view since I realized it was possible.

Funny thing is I'm Turkish and when I'm writing in Turkish present tense is out of the picture. In Turkish present tense isn't used in storytelling at all to the extent that present tense novels when translated to Turkish are in past tense now, such as The Hunger Games. So these rules are actually limited or diversified by language. This is because present tense in Turkish only implies continuous habits and such, in fact we call it wide tense. So we also don't have headlines in present tense.

@Thatguyinthe452

6 күн бұрын

Young hearts be free tonight Time is on your side Don't let 'em put you down, don't let 'em push you around Don't let 'em ever change your point of view

1st person present tense : YA voice, coming of age, experiences, don't know if character lives. Psychically close. Linear + flashbacks. Less unreliability of the charachter. Harder to notice redundant details. Melodrama heavy. 1st person retrospective: character lives. Most accurate way the person remembers the story. Can garner sympathy, less melodrama. Meditative and methodical. Unreliable charachter +++, can have effect on theme. 2nd person present tense: specific pov. Experiencing on the go,. Charachter is dissociating from the events while they are happening. Specific reason to use it. 2nd person retrospective: retelling the story to themselves. To show pain and guilt. 3rd pe tense limited: immediacy of present tense+ distance of third person. No retrospection. Unknowingly unreliable . Can't have knowingly unreliable charachter. 3rd person limited: unobtrusive, ideal for multiple povs. ( Especially past) can't be knowingly reliable. Cinematic. Psychic distance ++++. Most freedom. Rarely impacts theme. 3rd person omni: (as past tense usually) Anything !!!!!

Your passion for these POV/tense combinations shows in the best way. Thank you for giving us a good and comprehensive understanding of these mixes.

Thanks for showing those specific examples. Too many other KZreadrs ramble on about POV but don't actually compare specifics. Great job!

Wow, I think you paid attention in class or you're a prodigy. One thing for sure, you're brilliant. My favorite point of view to write and read is third person past tense. :)

@cwfcwfcwf

4 жыл бұрын

@@luminouswords3560 I totally agree. :)

Shaelin, you're the type of girl people write songs about

@fraggyDendron

4 жыл бұрын

If I had a brain that wrote songs Shaelin would absolutely get a song.

@DrTomb

3 жыл бұрын

Can someone explain this comment for me. Cause of the knowledge bomb ?

@TomorrowWeLive

3 жыл бұрын

Simp

@ichimatsu13

2 жыл бұрын

@@DrTomb the person screams to the void, "Why!"

Honestly, Shaelin, thank you so much for these videos. You're the most inspiring and helpful person ever, so really, thank you so much

I am absolutely in love with your channel, I listen to it while drawing and I feel like I learn so, so much! Right now I'm working on two novels: one in third person limited present tense, and another in first person retrospective, but it is sometimes kind of stream-of-consiousness-y because the narrator is able to tap into the emotions of her younger self.

I really needed this, I've always wanted to write a novel but I'm in my 30s and can't remember any of my highschool English classes! I've got plenty of ideas but I tend to panic when it comes to the technical side of writing. So glad I found your channel! Thank you :)

Great video Shaelin. Just a addendum. You said that first person past means that the character lives, but that is not always true. There is this Brazilian book called Posthumous Memoirs of Bras Cubas or Epitaph of a Small Winner where the narrator is telling us the story after his death as he is reflecting back on his life.

@ShaelinWrites

4 жыл бұрын

That's true, there are always exceptions!

I had only a vague idea about point of view, and even less understanding of tense. I’m dense, but gradually emerging from my ignorance with each review of this video. You have an amazing grasp of the skills that you offer, to make an aspiring writer relevant in this artistic realm. Having begun your search for knowledge at such a young age has given you an exponential head start on your detractors, who only wish they had your skills. You will far surpass them in lifelong accomplishments.

Wow, I love your nuanced videos and how you use examples from different genres, not just YA or fantasy, but also literary as well.

Thank you so much for this, Shaelin. I'm writing a piece in third person/present tense and this has sold me on sticking with it.

@ShaelinWrites

4 жыл бұрын

I do loveee 3rd person present tense!

Oh wow thank you so much. I'm starting a story.. first time I'm writing since high school. I wasn't sure which POV I wanted. You are the best.

So expansive! I think I am going to need a flowchart guiding me in the right direction when choosing point of view lol. You're brilliant!

Wow, I am boggled; mind blown! Now I need to revist some of my stories and consider POV change for those that aren't working. This makes so much sense. Thanks for the information.

"It's how you're taught POV in highschool english" oof. I was never taught POV in highschool english. Big sad

@fraggyDendron

4 жыл бұрын

I think it's one of those side note subjects where if you lose focus at the right moment you miss it.

This was fascinating! You have a very thorough knowledge of your craft.

OMG, Shaelin! This video helped me a lot! Thank you for sharing such essential information.

Hi Shaelin, thanks for your amazing content. I'm a new writer and am binging all your videos and learning so much. Learning a lot from this video as well - it's like having a free course!

This is a wonderful video. It’s exactly what I need at this particular point in my writing. I am writing a creative nonfiction piece on my grandmother and her life in the very early 1900s in rural Texas. It shows family life as well as how they existed at the turn-of-the-century as well as getting into the depression and World War II. I started off writing in third person but now I am going back and editing to change everything in the first person. First person is really giving me much more depth to the entire story.

Thank you so much for your advice and helping me write better stories shealin I really appreciate the help.

Thank you so much for this valuable information. It helped a lot!

Thank you SO much for explaining the pitfalls of first person present, and pointing out that it's the standard for most YA. I KNEW something was getting me stuck on my draft, and it was absolutely the repetitive sentence structure that tends to show up with this POV. Something has been feeling off and it's like you pointed it out to me without even reading my draft!!! 😭 seriously thank you ❤️❤️❤️❤️🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

Thanks so much for sharing this!

Nice to know you've learned so much over the past few years. The medium is the message!

This is so helpful! Thank you! I'm half way through a first draft rn and I used first POV and past tense, and reflecting if this was the right choice and should I put it to present tense (I'm a pantser and work more on instinct which brings a lot of second guessing haha) but your video made me realise my instinct was right ! and understand why! :'D

THIS WAS SO HELPFUL! Thank you!

Thsnk you for sharing these thoughts. I'm also a big fan of point of view. I could talk about this all day. Understanding point of view and its purpose within stories is interesting and makes writing so much easier and fun. Thanks Shaelin.

You are on point. "What the story is almost inherent to the point of view----boom!"

damn this is the best pov video I've ever watched. it was so in-depth and honestly perfect 😭

I remember you mentioning the ghost story you're planning on tumblr! I have been hooked ever since. Can't wait to hopefully read it one day!!

Love your personality and your insight.

"PoV is like gender - a spectrum" O BOY AVOIDING THE COMMENT SECTION

@someaceashes1637

3 жыл бұрын

underrated comment-

@x4nder176

3 жыл бұрын

mood lmao

@irispetal

2 жыл бұрын

lol i immediately subscirbed to shaelinwrites after hearing that

@cub4225

2 жыл бұрын

OH YEAH. Luckily it seems like everyone, for the most part, has gone the agree to disagree mode. Which is relieving

@merge9585

2 жыл бұрын

Surprisingly it's not that bad

I just discovered you. This is an albatross around my pencil. I absolutely love this explanation. I will have to listen a few more times to understand all of it. Thank you so much.

Brilliant. Your insights prevented me needing to do a lot of reading to find out about point of view.

Thank you for sharing, this was just the prescription for my tense and head-hopping conundrum. So grateful I found your video; I didn't watch until the end but I'll definitely be returning to this one in the future. The comments, as well, have great information and reassurance. Happy writing, all (:

I feel like I'm late to this conversation, but I wanted to say this is all excellent content, and thank you for supporting the trans community. It really means a lot! 😊

Super insightful. Thank you!

Strangely this was exactly the video I needed to really reel in how I want to tell the story. Strangely though, I've mixed tenses and povs depending on the scene. I'll reconsider, but the effect it currently has blending it dramatically increases the stakes and tension of the story I feel.

Thank you for talking about this. There really isn’t a “bad” POV. I definitely agree with your thoughts-it all depends on the writer and story. For myself, I can’t stand second person because it makes a lot of assumptions of the reader and when it doesn’t match, it really throws me off. But that’s just a taste issue. For some people, they love second person because it immerses them in the story. I’ve done both first and third person and I definitely prefer third. Namely because I jump around from place to place and in most of my stories, the reader needs information my characters don’t have. I’ve never liked present tense just, again, for a taste issue. It’s just my preference.

your videos are amazing im going to watch every single one!

First! Love you, Shaelin! Thank you for all the great info! Hope you're doing well.

@ShaelinWrites

4 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

As always, great video! Thank you. Will share with friends in hopes that it will help them with any POV questions and issues.

@ShaelinWrites

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks so much!

This was really helpful. Thanks Shaelin :D

I really hadn’t been thinking at all about the pov of my story before watching this but now I’m obsessed. It could add so much. I might just go absolutely bonkers and do omniscient 3rd person present tense.

INCREDIBLY HELPFUL

the thing you term first person referral is also done to INCREDIBLE effect in a magnificent novel called Dear Thief, by Samantha Harvey. that one is right up your alley, Shaelin. :)

I LOVE THIS!

Thanks for talking "so much" on this seemingly narrow subject. It will really help me plan my future stories!

awesome video, great thesis

What are your thoughts on a story written in first person past tense reflecting on the story but addressing a character in the story, using second person. For example, “Your body set off into dreams while mine was awake for every moment. I was aware that all things pass and cautious to not let this one slip under consciousness.” Thank you so much for your incredibly useful videos by the way.

@ShaelinWrites

3 жыл бұрын

That's actually one of my favourite techniques !!

Eggcelent! good job.

I was struggling with this issue in my story, I kept coming back to how should I tell it. Now I'm worse. Nah serioulsy, this is amazing info, thank you Shaelin!

I subconsciously write in 3rd person. I think this has a lot to do with my high school writing classes where they wanted you to default in 3rd pov. I think you have a video mentioning this too. For me when I write 1st pov it's like I'm talking to someone, talking about myself versus telling others about another person as 3rd pov.

Working on a story written in 1st person retrospective - trying to balance the points of retrospect and those points of intense, in-the-moment activity is pretty tough, but so far very rewarding to write! It's a nice chance to tell a story about two characters at once: the version in the story in the past, and the one that's at the end of their development. A note to visitors: don't let the "unreliability" or complexity of the 1st person retro scare ya. Even if the overtness of the storytelling is more on the discreet side, if you allow the narrator to feel things about their own character in their past, it works to better highlight the evolution they have undergone/will undergo through the story.

3rd person is very hard for me. I feel like when I write it has no heart in it, it feels robotic, so I put a lot of importance on PoV because it's the only thing that seems to work for me lol I was reading The Assasin's Blade by Sarah J. Maas and the tense was on 3rd person, but it limited to the toughts of the character focused on. It was fun reading so far

Gosh--point of views may be my weak point. I just ignore it, because I thought I could just pick one and write in it from their rules. So thanks! It really helped a lot!

I was waiting intently for you to get to 3rd person present, because I'm writing a book using that POV. You were kind of dismissive of it in another video so I was worried you might trash on it , but your description absolutely confirmed for me that I made a good choice. Thank you for this interesting analysis!

@ShaelinWrites

3 жыл бұрын

I think I know the video you're talking about and I'm sorry I was dismissive of it. That video was very old and I was much less educated/nuanced on some craft topics back then, but 3rd person present tense is actually one of my favourite points of views now!

@coreya603

3 жыл бұрын

@@ShaelinWrites Oh my gosh, don't worry about it, haha. I'm really loving your videos lately and this was the best video on POV I've ever seen, so thank you!

Well I think we can reflect in 1st person present just give a scene like 'well, I'm resting now, I'm going to sit and think over what the hell is being happening with in last few days and make sense out of it'

Superb!

Don’t worry about video length, if it’s filled with great information, I’ll watch anything, and this one was definitely worth watching. Personally, I think third person omniscient is the easiest to write, but the limited first person perspective is better as the reader. It depends on the genre though because a Mystery novel would definitely be boring if you learn everything from an omniscient PoV. For tenses, past tense is probably of the most boring tense because if it has a lot of action, you know there’s no real danger because obviously the narrator survived it all if they were the protagonist.

My 2 MG novel WIPs are in 1st person present, which I think suits the youthfulness of the protags, while my MG short story collection WIP is in 3rd person limited past and present since the stories are structured more like tales. I'm really enjoying writing the ones in 3rd person ltd. present, though.

I'm so glad HS English didn't stick with me. I feel more opened minded when watching your vids :)

Your videos are very informative. I must have watched a handful of them and I plan to watch most of your videos. I want to suggest one thing: As your speech delivery is a little faster, not all will be able to grasp the contents. Thanks.

Thanks you🙏

I can't wait for the 2nd pov video.. because I do have a whole pov of my book in 2nd person present tense and I love it and I love the reason for it.. :) I also have 2 povs in 3rd person present tense and 1 pov in first person present tense.

@ShaelinWrites

4 жыл бұрын

It should be up in a week or two!

@melodid5023

4 жыл бұрын

@@ShaelinWrites thanks :) I really love your tipps. They help me to stay organised :)

These videos are really helpful. The guides are clear as always which I'm greatly thankful for. But, I've been having a problem for the past months. It's been difficult to write-it's not only the motivation nor inspiration, I don't want to have those as my excuse. It's just that, even if attempt to get back on track, nothing is considered satisfactory. I try to write daily but it's just not working for me. I desire to improve, really, but it's creating a turmoil in my already chaotic mind. What should I to cease these thoughts and loss of will?

great video

Thanks for another awesome video! I had not known about third person present tense and it is really interesting, possibly a great POV for a horror story. When you say third person present tense needs to feel earned, how would one make it feel earned? Thank you

i really like writing poetry in second person present/past tense to put the reader more directly into the emotion

In Brent Week's Lightbringer (the third book) there are several points of views. Most of them are written in third person close, past tense. But every now and then you get a chapter in first person present tense. One of them is from the POV of a weapon. That's kinda weird. XD But it hammers home something, and that's that those chapters are different, in a different time, and not the main characters. It's pretty cool and creates this slightly uncanny feeling. :)

Thank you

Hey I love your videos! Can you recommend any books on creative writing?

Thanks brah

Love the video! And it was very insightful Thanks Shaelin for giving us a rundown on the usual POVs and your own two cents on POV in general! But I'm a lil confused on the questions you posited at the end (specifically 26:43) with regards to helping us answer the main question of "what is our story?" Because most of what you listed seems to be more geared toward first person and second person POVs and not third person, as usually in third person, the narrator isnt necessarily a character that really affects much in terms of the events of the story, especially in third person limited Do you have any alike questions that may apply to such perspectives in that case?

What about: when can you switch tense within a story? Could you make a video on that? I'm not sure I've almost ever seen it talked about. I've seen published short stories shift from past to present tense for the ending, and of course with flashbacks this can and should be done, but there might be other reasons and it would be really interesting to hear your take on it.

This is so interesting, will definitely rewatch (multiple times)! You missed one question though: Is it point of views or points of view? :D

@ShaelinWrites

4 жыл бұрын

It's points of view :)

Hi! I want to write books but don't know if I have what it takes or if it's the horse to bet on. I don't just want to write a story, I want to write a story that conveys something, something that asks and answers some question. I understand that you're taking a BFA in writing and I wondered if I should do the same or if perhaps it would better to study for instance philosophy so that I gain a better understanding of the world around us. I wanted to ask you what writers should focus on?

Really really awesome, in-depth analysis! Thank you so much for this video! Third person present tense piques my interest...

How to Get Filthy Rich in Rising Asia by Mohsin Hamid uses 2nd person present tense, and the conceit is that the narrative is a self-help be-your-best-self book about a boy rising from poverty using sometimes coldhearted means. Theres also a book called And Then We Came to the End by Joshua Ferris where it's a 1st person plural POV where an entire office recites the story like a Greek chorus.

Hi Shaelin, love the video. I know the chance of you seeing this comment is slim, but if you do I'd like to pose you a question. What is your opinion on mixing PoV in a multiple character perspective novel? E.g one PoV character being in 1st person retrospective, and the other PoV characters being in 3rd person retrospective because that first character is also the one telling their stories.

you make some interesting points. it just understanding the "flavor" when to use. Ice cream, single flavor, multi-scoop, multi-flavor scoop, or multi-scoop turned into a milk shake. some flavors work together others don't. for story telling multi-flavor milk shake pov (head hopping) does not sit well. and like ice cream you have many choices of the same base flavor. if it does not fit, don't eat the ice cream. and never assume everyone loves pistachio garlic jalapeno ice cream. and yes it does exist.

Honestly I think this completely changed the way my book was going. Originally, I was planning for a simple third person past tense limited because there’s different povs and that’s how the books I like to read go. However, I made my outline for the scenes in third person present objective, and I like how that makes the story feel similar to a play or a movie script, so I think I’ll go with that. We’ll see how that goes (^ ^;;;;

Dune by Frank Herbert is in 3rd person omni and some Tolstoy and older Victorian in origin authors I believe.

"Point of view is what your story is"... Amazing. Thanks so much for such simple clarity!

I consider you an authority on narration honestly. This video honestly changed how I think when I first watched it. Also, the emphasis you've put on specificity has changed my writing for the better I think I tried to put this on the wrong video at first, whoops

Omg, i struggle to convince myself to write in first person even when I feel the story calls for it. Why does it feel so unprofessional when it clearly isnt?

@Mureirza

3 жыл бұрын

does unprofessional mean immature

@user-pk8bb6lf9b

3 жыл бұрын

@@Mureirza depends on the context...

Is it acceptable to write the preface in third person omniscient and the story in third person limited? thanks! :-)

My novel is a retrospective scrapbook made by two high school graduates remembering their 11th grade year in 1998.

Personally, I like to write in present omniscient, present first-person, retrospective first-person, and present third-person limited. I used to feel like first-person was too casual and almost cheating. I've since changed my view and try to write in the POV best for the story. My favorite to write in is present omniscient, very close to the character.

@ShaelinWrites

4 жыл бұрын

I don't think I've ever read anything in present tense omniscient, but it seems like such a cool POV to try!

If you write in 3rd person limited, how many POV's would you recommend as a limit? I currently have 8 POV's and wonder if it's too much? (I am going to format the chapters in a way that the reader never has to switch perspectives in the middle of a chapter. Every chapter will be seen from a different POV character and the events are chronologic. Kind of similar to Six Of Crows.)

@ShaelinWrites

4 жыл бұрын

There is no official limit, as long as every POV is benefitting the story. At a certain point (different for every author/book), the number of POVs can kind of implode on itself, but if you feel each POV is adding something necessary to the book, go for it.

Would it be so bad to mix povs? I mean i want to write most of the story with 1st person but sometimes i need to write some scenes without her and focus on the other characters. But would it be so confusing for the readers? Should i write it from 3rd person's view? Help please