These some are really nice thoughts about orchestral mockups and libraries. However I think there is no "ugly" truth about sample libraries. All "problems" they are coming with can also be seen as opportunities. I don't understand why everyone wants their mockups sound as realistic as possible, as close to a live orchestra as possible. A solo flute over a string ensemble an harp runs that is impossible to perform, a twelve horn patch playing triads. Why not? I depends on who you are composing for? Only for yourself, for a small group of professional composers or conductors or say for the ordinary person that may not differentiate between a french horn, a trombone and a trumpet?

@ChristopherSiu

2 жыл бұрын

Great point; realism is not always the most important thing. As long as it sounds good to you, that’s what really matters!

@dafingaz

2 жыл бұрын

Yep. For the music I'm working on, realism is the last thing they care about. (But it is highly niche music; trailer music). In fact, one of the libraries that I work with mentioned the main goal is to get people to want to watch the movie (or play the game, or whatever). 🙌🏾

@DarkSideofSynth

2 жыл бұрын

You do have a point. Although, they are made as replacements or placeholders for real orchestras, this doesn't mean that we have to ALWAYS look at them that way, and that playing 60 horns at the same time isn't wrong if it's on purpose. Look at new ways to use these tools. After all, an electric guitar doesn't sound the same as an acoustic or a classic, and therefore it spawned a whole host of new sounds and genres. Precisely because it can overcome the limits of a real orchestra, use this to our advantage.

I think that's one reason BBCSO has become so popular. If you are writing for a live orchestra, it gives a much more cohesive and realistic sound. Is it the best sound for all instruments? No. BUT-it's also not the worst sound out there. In fact, I think it will give you a more realistic mockup (assuming you don't tweak the mics in a weird way). The other thing I'd say about BBCSO is that if you can get it to sound good in there, then it will sound even better live. BTW, if you're scoring trailers or video games, you may be delivering sampled performances for a lot of your music.

@ChristopherSiu

2 жыл бұрын

True!

Thank you for this. This is very correct. There is a difference between composing like a mock-up and composing for an orchestra. I feel like, with mock-ups, I can do things that can't be done due to limitations of timbre. Sometimes, it feels like I can be so ridiculously flexible with exactly how I want every instrument to sound, and it feels amazing. I think, as a modern composer, you should have every right to capitalise on the benefits that so fine-tuned recordings give. For instance, the arrangement/placement of instruments in an orchestra was done I believe because, after much trial and error, that was solidated as the most optimal for live sound. If every instrument is recorded clearly, however, as in a sample library, you can place the instruments anywhere via panning and volume levels, and not worry too much about sound quality. I think it's one of those things where you have to know the rules to know which ones to break lol

@ChristopherSiu

2 жыл бұрын

Very true!

and then you have studio orchestra's (like for film), there balancing is something that (just as with samples) can be altered the way you like. You could do impossible things in a real live orchestra setup: like you mention the flute being more louder than a fortisimo playing brass ensemble. (and those things are done quite a bit for film and games)

@ChristopherSiu

2 жыл бұрын

Definitely 😂

Could you make a video about the best kinds of reverb/ best reverb uses in orchestral mock-ups?

@SOUNTH11composingdesign

2 жыл бұрын

Perhaps this is helpful for you. kzread.info/dash/bejne/gYJ2uaqTlZyumtI.html

@ChristopherSiu

2 жыл бұрын

Sure!

@ronnyb5890

2 жыл бұрын

seventh heaven,cinematic rooms,and valhalla reverbs are all great,but like i said,for them to work well you will have to make your libraries dry (no own reverb or hall) also check the reverb under the kontakt hood so the library is completely dry then you can pass them all thru a third party reverb like the ones mentioned above

@dafingaz

2 жыл бұрын

@@ChristopherSiu Include the *worst reverb too. LOL

Panning also is as important as everything else Chris. I learned recently that it's a best practice to use the panning within the library rather than the DAW channel's pan to avoid panning the entire hall. I actually experimented it and found that panning from within the library is actually placing the instrument itself and keeping the hall reverb intact.

@ChristopherSiu

2 жыл бұрын

Good tip!

@callum6224

Жыл бұрын

This is actually good tip, if Kontakt actually does pan the dry instrument before the reverb.

@Ahmad-Mounir44

Жыл бұрын

@@callum6224 Honestly, I am not yet 100% expert in the science of reverberation. What I am doing is I send the reverb post-fader to violins for example, turn off the VST reverb and pan the dry signal to the left within the VST. The result is that I hear the violins come from the left and the hall reverb still preserved in the right as well which adds realism. Like in real hall, when you hear the violins in the left, the reverb is heard in the entire hall, not only the left.

Hi Cristopher I also thought that reverb in libraries affects their compatibility so much. Can you give me some advice? My main libraries is Cinematic Studio Series kit. As you know, there is no percussion and choir. Could you recommend any libraries that will complete my set?

hey Chris,if i like to use some libraries from different recording spaces,and it doesnt sound good,then i would make them all dry sounding, and put them all thru the reverb vst "cinematic rooms" then they would be more coherent

@ChristopherSiu

2 жыл бұрын

Great tip!

I try to use the less libraries as possible in order to maintain the balance. And you've told my motivation perfectly. Now I'm using the Spitfire based on Air Studios, but there was a time in which I used the Orchestral Tools ones based on Teldex. This is my way to simplify and make mixing easier.In the past I used Berlin Woodwinds with Spitfire Symphonic strings and... it was not good. Well, a lot of people says they blend very good, but I think it's not true, especially if you want something realistic. So, for beginners, the less libraries, the easier it would be to make it sound good. You can use as many libraries as you want, but be aware of the complexity you are adding. Thanks for your video!

@ChristopherSiu

2 жыл бұрын

My pleasure. Thanks for sharing!

It is much easier to add reverb than to eliminate it. So isn't it better to work with dry samples where you add reverb consistently?

Thank you, great information!

@ChristopherSiu

2 жыл бұрын

My pleasure!

Great video: if someone would like to get all sample libraries from the same developer what would you recommend? I am in between Cinesamples and Cinematic studio series...mostly towards cinesamples..Thank you!

@ChristopherSiu

2 жыл бұрын

Cinematic Studio Series is awesome!

Thanks for the video. Good insights, especially for those who have not worked with live players. I think the word "ugly" is relative (as I guess are most things). The reach of sample libraries depends on your end goal. I personally strive for realism. However, at times I take advantage of the ability to explore new textures, regardless of whether it parallels the abilities of live players. Of course, there are grave disadvantages of sample libraries. Yet, what's most exciting to me is that not long ago, composers had to wait for the first rehearsal session to hear his/her piece. Then, re-work the piece as necessary. Today, with a little knowledge of instrumental capabilities and limitations, we can hear everything immediately and accurately enough. Given this, I believe composers who have grown with sample library usage tend to be more versatile in their sound, or at least with the potential to sound as such. For me, the presence of immediate aural results eclipses all disadvantages of sample libraries.

@ChristopherSiu

2 жыл бұрын

Technology is amazing nowadays. Thanks for sharing!

Really good explanation. I like this subject 👍🏼

@ChristopherSiu

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

Great advice! but I have a question. why is your house/studio so dark lol! I mean you know what to do but if I was there I could not write a single bar of music. No offense btw

@ChristopherSiu

2 жыл бұрын

I belong to the dark side….no but actually I tried recording with the lights on before and it looked terrible! I’ll definitely upgrade my setup in the near future, so thank you!

I think its ok when things that would usually get drown out by other instruments will be turned up. I get your point tho. I think what some people might think is something along the lines of "Well if that wouldnt work live, its a composing problem". But i dont see anything bad about it whenever i want to enhance a normally quiter section or solo instrument in volume. Its just a matter of 1 Fader up/down. Thats what audio engineers are there for and find use in many orchestral work. When i cant hear a virtuose flute player because everything else is too loud, im not thinking "wow am i glad i cant hear shit in order to keep it real". Im thinking "What is she/he doing there? I cant hear shit. What a shame..." I think we have to clearly distinct recordings - fully produced pieces - from real face-to-face performances. With that being said, i agree with the different recordings of sample libraries, espacially in terms of the rooms. Thats why i love it whenever there are sample libraries with a room slider in their UI, like Cineperc. You can then go for something like EWs Spaces and send everything through there.

@ChristopherSiu

2 жыл бұрын

Yep!

While watching this and listening to you I realised once again how many hobbyists call themselves "composers" without having been a single time in a real concert hall and without having all this things in mind when "composing". Being a composer is not only having good orchestra libraries. After all, it all leads to real composer's job devaluating.

@ChristopherSiu

2 жыл бұрын

Definitely something to think about!

Do you think that going to live concerts could help to get better at orchestration?

@ChristopherSiu

2 жыл бұрын

Definitely!

Interesting thought indeed - AS USUAL - BUT as others have noted, WE know it's not real and often the only people who DO know might be those actively engaged in dealing with REAL orchestras or seasoned developers/composers/producers who DO virtual mockups all the time such that THEY can hear the problems or mistakes that shouldn't be made. And then you address in some of your answers to others' comments that if you're doing the music for yourself or those who wouldn't be able to hear mistakes - e.g. the general non-music but appreciative public - then you can get away with a bit more. As always music is a totally subjective thing - just like any ART is. A guy I used to work with used to say - "If it's ar't with you, it's ar't with me". Notice the AR ' T - which was HIS abbreviation for alright - if it's alright with you, it's alright with me. Since ART is subjective -if it sounds good to you - only those who are heavily involved in doing virtual mockups might hear the stretches of what is done in a mockup that they'd perceive as "wrong", whereas the general music public won't. And that doesn't mean that it's wrong or right - it's subjective and THAT is the key to any of it. No matter how "off" it might be - somebody will hear it and perhaps like it or even just appreciate the creative mistakes. Who ever knows who is going to like it. Thus that gives a whole lot of us a great deal of hope that what we do will appeal to someone. Granted if you're doing it professionally - different story - somebody is footing the bill. But for us general musical schmucks - it's about what my college theory teacher said during second year theory - don't worry so much about the rules, just compose!! Lucky for me. Besides sometimes a featured instrument that might be lost in a full orchestration is at the forefront because they're miked to be heard over the other 100 pieces - but then that's obvious when that occurs since it likely would be written for a soloist "up front" of everyone else intentionallly.

Personally, I prefer to stick with one library(vendor) for a piece as much as possible. For instance, all orchestral elements are from VSL Synchron. That way they are well volume balanced, reverb is the same, and even room placement is pre-done for you.

@ChristopherSiu

2 жыл бұрын

Definitely!

I find it rather surprising that DAW or plugin developers have not yet offered a way to automize some of this, at least not to my knowledge. Should it not be possible in principle to emulate the balance of a particular orchestra based on the average and/or max decibels of each instrument etc.? The results might not suit all purposes and sounds one might want to create, but it would make things a whole lot easier given that most of us work with different libraries, at least as a starting point. And one could always offer various presets to add flexibility. The needed algorithm to do this even with libraries from various developers does not seem to be all that different from some of the things already utilized in iZotope assistants or something like that. Rather than coming up with yet another string library, compressor, etc. every three months, it seems there is a lot of room to satisfy the more pressing needs of users.

wanted to download the guide, but it says my email is invalid ... is there any other way

@ChristopherSiu

Жыл бұрын

Hey there! Any valid email address should work; perhaps another browser may help.

@s.hoffmann5616

Жыл бұрын

@@ChristopherSiu It must have been a firefox issue... got a bunch of emails, one for each try, eventhough it supposedly never accepted the emailaddress... 😅

Thats why we need to tweak the librarys and not juat use it out of the box. We need to tweak everything then it will sound pretty close to the real thing.

@ChristopherSiu

2 жыл бұрын

Yep!

is that lofi in the bg😊

Balance is really not clear these days. Bernard Hermann started experimenting with different instrumentation because he recognized the recorded medium could allow for different balances. If the goal is to create a live orchestra sound, for sure, traditional balances should be observed of course.

@ChristopherSiu

2 жыл бұрын

Yes!

excelent ¡¡

@ChristopherSiu

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks :)

I think someone wrote on Twitter that when we're writing with sample libraries we're essentially just splicing wav-files together. Sounds hilarious, but that's pretty much the truth!

@ChristopherSiu

2 жыл бұрын

So true!

@jenssieckmann

2 жыл бұрын

Hm, I think there is a bit more to it. Just like piling bricks is not enough to build a house.

@-Meric-

2 жыл бұрын

@@jenssieckmann Obviously. But at it's lowest level sample libraries are just a ton of wav files, a ton of scripting, and a ton of effects.

Just buy Spitfire BBC Symphony Orchestra 😁

@ChristopherSiu

2 жыл бұрын

Easy solution!