The bit about package version caching was mostly around `bunx` commands (npx replacement) for things like `create-t3-app` Jarred merged a fix for the `bunx @latest` thing right before I posted this github.com/oven-sh/bun/pull/5346

@codelivewithme

10 ай бұрын

hey how you know these deep detail so quickly

@divinelogik

10 ай бұрын

What do you mean "things like 'create-t3-app'"? The fix makes no distinction between your lib and any other lib@latest. Also, this shouldn't be a pin, but a new video addressing the comment and subsequent change. Did we learn nothing from LTT.

@franzandr2152

10 ай бұрын

​@@divinelogikcreate-t3-app is mentioned in pull request as axample And pinned comment is sufficient, in my opinion, for providing additional and new info after releasing video. Why bring LTT in this, I would say that this is completely different situations

@potatoscream

10 ай бұрын

​@@divinelogikbruh the create-3-app is just an example. It's very common to post corrections in the comments, no point in a 7 seconds video just to point out an update.

@_Hespro_

10 ай бұрын

@@divinelogikThat’s obvious? Are you that bored that you’re trying to pick a fight ?

Until days ago, I had no idea Node was such a small unpaid team. How can Node carry so many corporations on its back, how can Node be such a core dependency to the web as we know it, and companies aren't pouring money into its continued development?

@CodingPhase

10 ай бұрын

😅

@CodingPhase

10 ай бұрын

This is the main problem with open source. Those poor dudes got a whole industry on their back and surviving of likes n GitHub stars

@Ironication

10 ай бұрын

They should stop working and let the corporations burn until they get their due.

@frontendtony

10 ай бұрын

Mind numbing really

@seannewell397

10 ай бұрын

Wait until you hear about curl

Jared desperately trying to maintain an image of professionalism for Bun. Meanwhile the community: "IT'S A BUNTIME"

@tablettablete186

10 ай бұрын

This is where the bun begins 😎

@theSUBVERSIVE

10 ай бұрын

devs simply can't runaway from a puntime

@danvilela

10 ай бұрын

No bun intended

@unusedTV

10 ай бұрын

@@theSUBVERSIVE you mean a bunchline?

@sk4dic

10 ай бұрын

​@@theSUBVERSIVEThey can't bun away?

HEY NODE DEV TEAM I LOVE YOU SO MUCH WITHOUT YOU I WOULDN'T HAVE A JOB THANK YOU FOR ALL OF YOUR HARD WORK ❤❤❤

@tnypxl

10 ай бұрын

You would. But you'd probably hate it.

@fernando_her85

10 ай бұрын

Node Dev Team you are amazing!

@merofuruya_

10 ай бұрын

Well i would have to do some pascal then lmao

@crowlsyong

6 ай бұрын

Donate money

Thank you to the whole community, we really are the builders.

@OryginTech

10 ай бұрын

No I’m a bunny.

@atomjack

10 ай бұрын

Glory to the builders.

@xX_dash_Xx

10 ай бұрын

corny ahh comment 💀

@RarebitFiends

10 ай бұрын

Cringe

@nromancarcamo

10 ай бұрын

@@OryginTechWell, you’re not in CS world because bun is something new.

The bus thing in relation to the 1st/2nd contributor difference is legit scary

@kearneytaaffe7059

10 ай бұрын

PHP has a bus factor of 1...it used to be 2 till Apple stole the other guy

I agree with everything you said Theo. There is always a tradeoff to make when we try to make things faster. And we should not forget the amount of efforts being put into long-lasting technologies. Lots of effort doesn't always lead to a successful product but no product can be successful without tremendous amount of effort.

@yuri.caetano

10 ай бұрын

Bro a lot of products have been made with no much effort like you said. Don't prison your mind in limit beliefs

I'm using it in non-work projects right now because it's just so nice to have the compile times reduced to milliseconds. I hope more devs support bun's development to keep in sync with node features. Who knows, maybe bun's work will be merged into node's and we'll get the best of both worlds one day.

The right question is: WHO did that freaking cute logo? This person deserves credit!

Bro seriously, perfectly complimented Node. I wouldn’t be where I am without the JavaScript and Node community 🎉

@pramodjingade6581

10 ай бұрын

I am still proud of my Pirple Thinkific Node certification 2019 😅

I love Jared's enthusiasm for performance, always sharing little optimizations on twitter and such. I've been seeing some wild stuff with the BETH stack (Bun Elysia Turso HTMX) perf numbers, but I still like nextjs and drizzle or prisma

Thank you Node team, you rock!

Kinda worry for people who are negative about node now, its almost as if you'd start to hate your mom and dad because they raised you and now you can start your life without the struggles they needed to solve for you...

@ChillAutos

10 ай бұрын

Umm mate it’s a technology not a family member. Are you still holding onto jquery for greenfield projects? I’m not jumping right onto bun but this analogy makes no sense.

@matejpesl1

10 ай бұрын

@@ChillAutosIt does, to a point. It's not as dramatic as comparing it to family members, but it's also not completely off, considering how much some people are bashing node all of sudden.

@adaliszk

10 ай бұрын

​@@ChillAutos sorry if it made no sense. I am not implying that you should use either the old or the new things, it just being negative about an older thing just because the new is cooler seems no sense to me. It feels very ungreatful for the older ones upon which the new was able to build, and that's where I thought the parallel to ungreatful children's makes sense.

@ChillAutos

10 ай бұрын

@@adaliszk Ok I get what you were saying but honestly its a very small minority who are saying anything bad about node. You just get more visibility of that through these sorts of channels amplifying it.

@Rudxain

5 ай бұрын

I was like that some months ago, but not because of Node specifically. I wanted to avoid anything JS-related like the plague, and since Node was "the worst runtime, when compared to Deno and Bun" I avoided using any runtimes (especially Node) as if they're radioactive waste. Now that I'm using Helix, and need LSPs, I've started to appreciate Node because of its stability/compatibility. I don't have to use Node (or any runtime) per-se, it's just a dependency, so this is the perfect balance for me

Bun being named after the Bunny is the javascript equivalent of Python being named after Monty Python. Awesome

@programmingwithmesh1285

4 ай бұрын

All this time we could have been coding in Monty. MontyMonty instead of PyPy.

Excited about Bun, despite getting a seg fault straight up on v1. There will be issues, but it is a huge forward movement, that was long overdue.

@shamshid

10 ай бұрын

most of the seg faults were fixed in v1.0.1

@everyhandletaken

10 ай бұрын

@@shamshid nice, I will give that a try. Thanks!

I'm amazed at how you manage to run all of the work you do + maintain a company. You release a video almost everyday. Hats off to you Theo.

thanks for this video. it really teaches some wisdom there on how to view the ecosystem and node's place in it.

This is the take I was looking for. Ty so much Theo. Always 🔥

Great video, the points you are making are solid, the contribution chart for ESBuild is eye opening.

my terminal dont want none unless you got Bun, hun

Thank you for this video and message. It really opened my eyes as a junior dev to the risks and considerations one has to make when it comes to adopting new technology. It‘s a really fair assessment and great that you point out the absurd generosity of all those (high-performer or not) open-source contributors. Cheers!

The meme at 8:24 has been in the wild for decades but every time i watch it, it hurts Thank you so much random guy from Nebraska

You look great today! Learned a lot in this one thanks

Your analysis is so good.💯 Good job Theo.

you have an incredible overview of this field. very impressive!

This is a great take, thanks for publishing this 💯

1,000% agree.

The amount of things I rely on built by people named Evan is scary...

One of the best takes I’ve seen! ❤

Really interesting video, thanks! I never considered the points about how Bun can do what they're doing and why Node cannot.

Good and mature points. Thanks Theo!

This is really profound man, could you make another video juxtaposing Deno and Bun and their futures. I would love to see what your takes on Deno RIGHT NOW!

I want to thank you for your thoughtful video. In contrast to many who are much more interested in calling attention to themselves and their supposed brilliance via shouted out superficiality, your analysis of the team character in concrete commit production of npm over the years (without denying their own corporate and at times anti-union character) gives us all food for thought. There are no magic bullets when that cartoon shows all the weaknesses of our ecosystem.

insightful as always! thanks Theo

I’ve never even considered this perspective especially when you show the git contributions/insights. Very eye opening. Love your posts, such a real life perspective. I’ll likely stay in node for years to come especially considering the investments most companies have made. Thanks for sharing!

I truly forgot how much effort the community do to make popular packages, ecosystems, runtimes.... Still running up to today, which makes me think that instead of just using existing solutions, as developers we should start contributing more to open source solutions that we are still using

I've been a "long term" supporter of bun and zig in general. It pains me to see people talk down on node. Node is great, bun could be better but in the end the fact remains that we couldn't have gotten to this point without the contributions made to node

This is a great take, a voice of reason in amongst the hype.

Thank you, Theo, for doing this video.

Completely agree with you here and you make a lot of really good call-outs. I'm excited to give Bun a try and I really hope they succeed! It's for sure immature to trash the Node team because Bun is faster or whatever. It's amazing how far Node has come and that it opened up the entire path forward for making the JavaScript ecosystem what it is at all. Nearly all of the tools I use regularly fully depend on Node, it's incredible. It should be no surprise that after all these years someone came and got a potentially better path forward. It's always way easier to improve on someone else's success than to be the first in the field.

Well said. Respect to the Node Core team and everything they have done.

Thank you for sharing your perspective on that topic! I didn't know so much about the backbone of NodeJs. Those devs should receive definitly more recognition and less thanklessness.

Thank you for making a video about how hard the Node Core team works. Open source maintainers don't get near enough credit. As an example. I remember when ioJS (At that time Node was backed by JoyNet) was created, to fix issues they thought NodeJS core team wasn't prioritizing. Then after a few years the node core team merged in ioJS' code base and ioJS went away. Node got better and also node got separated from a company and became more community focused I'm a weirdo who will probably stay with Node and NPM, but I appreciate your discussion about bunJS and possible issues

Thank you so much for sharing

Thank you for the information. :)

Thanks a lot for a geat video with the precious insights. Thanks a lot 👍

One of the best videos I've seen about Bun, thanks for sharing.

I really liked the introduction! I feel hooked, and this is exactly what I want to know! 😅

Wold be greater to have a video with your perspectives about the Deno ecossistema too Theo

These are very very good points, thank you.

I love Zig, so I was always going to be curious about Bun, but I also think Bun made more sensible decisions about compatibility than Deno did. I was excited for Deno but never wound up using it. I've been using Bun since the first day, because it was comfortable to replace certain Node features with from day one.

Great analysis of reality. Thank you. What do you think about the possibility of node refocusing some of their resources to building a migration plan to a new "node", which just happens to be bun? Is this a viable option?

Bun is really great, already changed to the runtime on most projects and just waiting for proper monorepo support to change to the package manager as well.

That mkbhd types background 0:30 looks awesome perlin noise 3d. I also made that last week using remotion that was fun

Great take!!

Thanks for recognizing node. For all it’s few faults, it is a truly amazing body of work.

What a video, hope this puts to rest all the chaos on Twitter

Ironically, there's probably a relationship between how good something is with how many people work on it. Some of the best software is written by one talented individual. Some of the worst software is maintained by hundreds of people.

@luisgabrielcaetanodiniz3251

10 ай бұрын

The Mythical Man-Month is one of the best Software Engineering books ever and it's whole point is pretty much this!

@ayoubthegreat

10 ай бұрын

📘 "Mythical Man-Month" Key Lessons 📚 1. 🕐 **Brooks' Law:** Adding more people to a late software project makes it even later. 💼 2. 👥 **Surgical Team Model:** Software development is like a surgical team - skilled individuals working together efficiently. 🔪 3. 🧩 **Conceptual Integrity:** Maintain a consistent and coherent design throughout the project. 🧠 4. 🎯 **Second-System Effect:** Be cautious of overambitious second-system designs. 🚀 5. 🪙 **No Silver Bullet:** No magic solution; progress comes through hard work. 🏗 6. 🗣 **Communication:** Open and honest communication is vital within the team. 📢 7. 📄 **Documentation:** Proper documentation is essential for understanding and maintenance. 📝 8. 🕳 **The Tar Pit Analogy:** Software development can be like a tar pit - navigate complexity carefully. 🕳 9. 📏 **Estimation:** Accurately estimating project time and effort is challenging. 📆 10. 🧪 **Prototyping:** Use prototypes to clarify requirements and reduce project risks. 🎮 These lessons from "Mythical Man-Month" are a must for anyone in software development and project management! 🌐💻📈

@paulooliveiracastro

10 ай бұрын

100% this

@jamesm4957

10 ай бұрын

is that commonism?

This is very thruth!

I’m hoping the Node team will get inspired by Bun to make some of their own performance improvements.

Is there a way where we could donate to the core Node team for their unpaid-and at the moment, unappreciated-hard work and unwavering dedication to open source? Thank you, Theo, for your analysis of the whole thing, and for shedding light that some members of the community has abused the core maintainers 😥

@mohitjain5552

4 ай бұрын

I was thinking the same, then it hit me, that those developers are senior engineers, and since the time Ryan founded Node JS and open-sourced it, and the community that supported it, their goal was never money. Donating them even out of good-faith is like giving a 5$ tip to a good Samaritan who towed your punctured car to the garage.

I've noticed when I install packages with bun, it installs latest version, but doesn't update package.json

Nice video. And if I had to guess I'd say that Bun project will push Nodejs forward and then gradually disappear. Does anyone remember io.js (node fork)? And the Deno project? Well, node is sustainable over time and has more chances to absorb Bun performance improvements rather than being replaced by it massively.

Bun got somewhere really great in a short time and i think the team understands this points that you pointed and they sure have plans 😅.

For me the biggest drawback of bun has been its lack of compatibility with some parts of node, so right now I will just use it for small simple projects.

Not getting my backend services off of Node anytime soon, but I've installed Bun and will be doing some prototyping.

@owenwexler7214

10 ай бұрын

Prototyping update: Bun and Elysia are both fast af and a pleasure to work with in development. Have not tried in production. Jury still out. Switching any of my serious prod services to Bun at this juncture would definitely not be bleeding responsibly, but the future looks hopeful.

@owenwexler7214

10 ай бұрын

I have only one petty complaint and I'm not sure if this is a Bun thing or an Elysia thing but either Bun or Elysia spits a ton of whitespace into the terminal whenever an error is thrown. Like... it's about 80-90 lines of whitespace and then the error. Petty complaint but it makes reading error messages and debugging a lot harder. That's really my only complaint about the DX with Bun and Elysia in dev though.

Thank you, Theo.

Thank you for this explanation of Bun 1.0 and how important Node.js and it's contributors still are.

I'd really like to see windows support (without using WSL) or at least the ability to run it via Msys2 currently WSL is the only way to run it under windows.

@komakaze1

10 ай бұрын

Yes I'm waiting for Windows support, and then for Volta to support Bun, and Bun to support source-maps, and perhaps SCSS support too.

Bun is sitting at the shoulder of the giant Node

Excited to try out bun

The title was a scary and I was expecting an opinionated rant about personal DX preferences or cherry-picking facts related to performance and compatibility, but this was a really fair and informative video. Thank you!

It’s the first time I hear Node’s core team is under criticism. I’m sure a lot of people appreciate the work they put in. And remember, Bun needs Node’s ecosystem to thrive, so in a way they complement each other.

i still remember when Jerred suddenly said "it's buntime" when we're at the pub

@Rudxain

5 ай бұрын

Then proceeded to bun all over the place

I uninstalled yarn a couple days ago and switched it out for bun. I haven't looked since. There was one package out of all of them that I had to replace. But there was literally a bun-same name package.

Men good point bro! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Bun can be make network checking under the background for up to date

indeed. different beasts and building on the shoulders of giants. for personal stuff i will be trying bun today. for commercial work, ill be waiting for the next big bun update. for me stability is a huge deal. also zig is not yet version 1.

How is Bun going to generate revenue for the VC backers? I want to use Bun in the future but want to have some sense of direction on where Bun is going especially if it has to start generating revenue off of developers at some point...

This video was really needed. Thank you, Theo.

Can you make the same Webpack/Vite video like you did Node/Bun?

yo where'd you get that shirt?

i had node app that using old version like 10, try install and run using bun is not working, maybe bun is compatible for project that use node latest version

Bun over promised. Those performance improvement won't be that great once the thing is battle hardened.

Is it possible to do UDP things with Bun?

The bus thing is basically what has now happened to classic vim

Wow, what a video! Thank you, I'll stop ranting at node!

i feel *thankful💐🙏🏻*

Good points

what are your thoughts on the further fragmentation of the ecosystem? this seems like a topic that's also worth discussing. there are so many compilers and bundlers and Typescript implementations at this point, all of them with subtle incompatibilities - as you pointed out, even something as apparently benign as performance can become an "incompatibility" if you start to rely on a 4x difference. I think there's a lot to talk about here. 🤔

@LongNguyen-dh3bm

3 ай бұрын

There's only 1 TypeScript implementation, which is the official tsc compiler. All the other bundlers and compilers that support TypeScript only do transpilation, not type-checking. There used to be a project that reimplements TS type-checking in Rust, but the owner abandoned it due to TS being too complex.

We currently use pnpm and are looking into switching to bun for our mono repo. How good is the workspace stuff working, anyone using that part? Also, typing "pnpm" is horrible... I know you could make an alias but it still.. /s

This video is hot out of the Oven

Mate, ty very much for video. I totaly agree with you. Everything is depends on your requirements.

People treating technologies like sports teams is crazy 😂

Wow that contribution chart for ESBuild is wild!! Evan is the GOAT lol

well said

If you look at python or other core software Iinfra projects, big companies are starting to hire to ensure their own systems built on top of that can continue to be supported

also up to x2 ram usage depending on the task

It's really hard to beat Node for me, it's so nice and cozy

Hmm, `npm i` honors a lockfile if available. isn't it correct that `bun i` does the same thing? pnpm seems like the outlier.