Edit #2: As some of you have pointed out, I mixed up the Busch Clash with the Twin 125s. That was an honest error on my part, my apologies. To those of you commenting about the Stapleton42 video on Jimmy Means: I had this video already made before that one was uploaded and didn't see it until a couple days ago. The spoiler he showed off and says he "never got caught" for is apparently a different design than the "springy" one I talk about in this video. There's a newspaper article from 1992 that talks about him getting caught for the "springy" one linked in my sources in the description. If you haven't already, check out Andy Petree and Dean Jones' interviews on the Dale Jr. Download (also linked in the description) Really interesting stuff! Thanks for watching!

@1PADRAIG

Жыл бұрын

Take a look at Stapleton42 video with Jimmy Means he build one with brake cylinder

@themotorsportstory

Жыл бұрын

@@1PADRAIG I actually just saw that one yesterday. That was a great video! Thanks for watching!

@rickyrudd28texacohavolinef2

Жыл бұрын

¿Pat, this video? kzread.info/dash/bejne/aGyC19Cic7nTmKw.html

Yes I know cheating is wrong. But kudos to those guys for upholding the spirit of NASCAR.

@willstikken5619

Жыл бұрын

It is only cheating if the rules explicitly say you can't do it AND you get caught breaking the rules...

@scootergeorge7089

Жыл бұрын

@@willstikken5619 "Smokey" Yunick could not have said that any better. Kudos!

@SonicBoone56

Жыл бұрын

Meh, finding loopholes in motorsports is hardly what I'd call cheating. It's just exploiting the rules. A lot different than other sports.

@NeurodivergentSuperiority

Жыл бұрын

@@SonicBoone56 Exactly, there is a big diffrence between cheating and finding loopholes

@NeurodivergentSuperiority

Жыл бұрын

@@willstikken5619 And this makes the diffrence between a loophole and a cheat

It would be a great read if someone would be able to put all the cheating stories into one book. I have been following Nascar since the early 70’s and am still amazed at some of the stories coming to light. That is the innovation that kept Nascar moving forward. Keep the stories coming.

@themotorsportstory

Жыл бұрын

I would love that! Thanks for watching!

@SonicBoone56

Жыл бұрын

It makes sense that a series that intentionally limits cars to being a dinosaur in technology (up until just recently) would have tons of people finding ways to incorporate better tech into it. F1 had loophole exploits too, but it just wasn't as ridiculous. Probably because of the entirely different structure of the series. I think a book about exploits in racing as a whole would be worthy of a book.

The reason it wasn't discovered that Gant shot by with essentially a flat spoiler, was that Gary Nelson was turned around checking something and had his back to the track, so didn't see it I never knew about the car being too low, only the deck lid part, but Leo Jackson gave the okay after being told you know the cheat is in there, you know something is off with the car, if you can't find it, they won't find it so they ran it. I forget if it was Andy Petreee or Harry who told that story but that's the part that sticks out to me. Jimmy Means is on the Scene Vault pocast with a lot more cheating stories, all of which are just as good. Never knew the Miller team tried the pins either, it makes me wonder about how many others Gary Nelson found out that weekend. Also for a tweaked spoiler, see Mike Skinner in the Truck race at Daytona when when he won with half the spoiler either laying back or pushed forward, I forget which.

@themotorsportstory

Жыл бұрын

I'll have to check out that podcast with Jimmy Means, sounds really interesting! Thanks for watching!

@ryansheehan9462

Жыл бұрын

The Daytona truck win was Michael Waltrip not Mike Skinner

@jacekatalakis8316

Жыл бұрын

@@ryansheehan9462 Duh, not sure why I thought Skinner

Harry Gant and that Skoal Bandit car was one of my all time favorites as a kid. Couldn’t wait to get old enough to chew some Skoal 😂

In NASCAR, it's not cheating if ya don't get caught! Also, if ya do get caught it's known as an engineering mistake.

@MM126.90

Жыл бұрын

Sorry, I accidentally put a hydraulic spoiler on the car with mislabeled controls in the radio box. My bad.

@Big88Country

Жыл бұрын

@@MM126.90 HAHAHA!! Yeah man!!

This is a great video and this brings back memories of when half of Michael Waltrip's wing brace broke in half in the 2011 Daytona Truck race, resulting in him effectively having half of a DRS on his Truck. I didn't know Harry Gant once tried a full-on DRS system before Waltrip's half-DRS case XD

A lot of teams did this in NASCAR. Some did it through moveable spoilers, and others did it through forcing the entire end of the car lower. There's an interview with a former privateer who talks about how he'd rigged a hydraulically lowered spoiler.

I think the biggest risk he took was the fact he stole it off his wife's car.

@themotorsportstory

Жыл бұрын

🤣 You're probably right!

Another good one was a team had 400pounds of buckshot in there chassis so it would pass weight but when they went out on the track a door would open up and release the buckshot pellets out making the car lighter and because of the banked track the pellets would roll down to the bottom of the track and the nascar officials suspected something because they kept finding pellets on the tracks but they never could find anything because the door to release the pellets was in the jack hole and when they jacked the car up the jack would cover the door up 😂 this is a video of dale jr saying this story kzread.info/dash/bejne/p4CCtpqYis7dkag.html this is another good video kzread.info/dash/bejne/mpqlmY9qlbO9XbA.html of a lot of ways they also cheated

@bradkroboth5490

Жыл бұрын

Sounds like DW n Jr Johnson

Goes to show that when you start down this path *every* detail has to survive being checked. They got the looks down but not the angle. I will say the copper lowering rings were surprising though.

@themotorsportstory

Жыл бұрын

Finding out about those really surprised me too! Thanks for watching!

@f87115

Жыл бұрын

Yes amazing, give a convict long enough and it can come up with anything

I've never watched a NASCAR race but I love watching these videos

I know Larry and his guys also created a duct that would close in the front when the engine wasn't in a need for cooling and would automatically open and close to reduce drag on the Davey Allison machine. It never ran more then a test, but Larry said they could've used it but I'm pretty sure they were scared of it in many ways like if it gets stuck shut so they assumed it was too risky.

Got to hear this story directly from Andy and see the actual spoiler a few years back, wild to think of the engineering work and technology that went into it for the year.

Named Mr. September...he won 4 of the 5 Cup races in September (finished 2nd on 9/29/91 at NWS) & won both Grand National races that month too

This channel is fantastic! Hope it blows up soon so you start getting credit for your hard work

@themotorsportstory

Жыл бұрын

Thanks so much, that means a lot!

@tovko2000

Жыл бұрын

It did

Meanwhile: You got a guy wall boosting on the final lap like it's his Gamecube.

Gant and Co would save fuel by drafting off of lapped team mates, or so they would have you believe. The car actually had a few extra yards of 2" I.d. fuel line hidden under the regulation tank, the drafting pantomime was to hide the fact he had gallons more fuel in the car than the rest and was able the finish with one less stop.

That cheat is brilliant enough to convince someone that it was one of Smokey's. Absolutely genius on the team's part.

Funny this came out a day after Stapleton42 made a video about the DRS spoiler that WASNT caught and ran until this one was lol. That one was hydraulic however.

Means also had an operable air spoiler that there's a video of somewhere on yt. He actually still has and shows how they fed the air tube through the rear lid strut to get to the spoiler. He also shows how they rigged their carbs to get away with some stuff too. Still has all that stuff in his garage.

YT channel Stapelton42 did a video about Jimmy Means the other week and he shows them a spoiler he used with a hydraulic cylinder hid in the deck lid that pulled the spoiler down.

Clever stuff! Your presentation of it was great, too!

@themotorsportstory

Жыл бұрын

Thanks so much, appreciate you watching!

At that point in time there were a lot of teams tweaking and cheating up the decklids for the superspeedways. Actually they would build the whole rear of the car to hide the rear spoiler and let air cut over it at speed. But it would look normal and pass inspection while standing still.

I like the style you present things and you have a very nice and easy voice to listen to, rock on my guy.

@themotorsportstory

Жыл бұрын

That means a lot, thank you!

I remember this win streak! I always wondered what they did, thanks for the explainer.

incredible i love all this anecgdote of past on the winston cup story i love ! thank you great vidéo !!!

@themotorsportstory

Жыл бұрын

Appreciate that, thanks for watching!

I miss back when nascar engineers were like Williams in Formula 1

Great vid, Harry Gant was one of my favorite drivers!! 33

@themotorsportstory

Жыл бұрын

Thank you! Harry's a true wheelman for sure!

@THROTTLEPOWER

Жыл бұрын

@@themotorsportstory Exactly!

Imagine what the next gen cars could do with a full on DRS system.

Great videos!

@themotorsportstory

Жыл бұрын

Thanks ;)

Sprint cars use "drs" on their wings. They flatten out at speed, and pop up when turning.

When NASCAR hired Gary Nelson, they eliminated half the cheating n the sport. There wasn’t anyone better at cheating than him.

@terrylessmann2274

Жыл бұрын

Hire a thief to catch a thief.

Ok, I think cheats should get stomped, but that crushable copper dome trick was seriously clever. Hat off.

There was a racer back then, that used hydraulic slave clydiners to do this same thing but never got caught, it's on Stapletons youtube channel

Aincent NASCAR did it way back and I thought it was the phenominal innovation of Fromula 1.

That copper washer trick was ingenious thinking.

I had an idea for NASCAR to use the DRS system on the tracks that they run and I had a list dedicated to this idea. For Superspeedways I feel this would be too dangerous so they don’t use it for Daytona, Talladega, and now Atlanta. However they’ll be able to use it everywhere else, with road course being three laps before being able to activate it, short tracks being 10 laps and 1.5-2 mile tracks being 5 laps. For short tracks you would have to be at least half a second behind the car in front to be able to use it and everywhere else you have to be within a full second. I personally would love to see this but I very highly doubt that’ll ever happen.

Good story minus one slight error-qualifying set the field for the Thursday Twin 125’s. The Busch Clash was an All Star race based mostly upon pole winners from the previous season.

@themotorsportstory

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for clarifying! That was an honest error on my part.

Creative engineering

Great story

The only Nascar team that had more than just. A hammer.

Being a husband 101 You never ever steal parts off your daily car, you always steal parts of your wife’s car. That way you look like a good husband when you pay for and fix the wife’s car after it somehow stopped working. Now that’s the true genius

@themotorsportstory

Жыл бұрын

Haha, this guy gets it! Thanks for watching.

Never heard this story. Thanks!

@themotorsportstory

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching!

Ironically Gary Nelson was behind the bumper gate and the Greg Sacks R&D car.

I’m skeptical about the trunk lid actuator having sufficient power to return the spoiler to a normal position with aero load on the trunk lid. Interesting story nonetheless.

Awesome car

Good summary of Andy's side of the story

@themotorsportstory

Жыл бұрын

Thanks! Funny how stories like this do seem to change a little depending on who gets interviewed. Appreciate you watching!

Suck on that, F1. Also, Harry Gant didn't just get the name Mr. September by winning all four NASCAR Cup Series races in September 1991; there were also two Busch Series (now Xfinity Series) races scheduled that month, and Gant would win both of them.

Stapleton 42's youtube channel talked to Jimmy means about this and Jimmy still has the spoiler

Honestly, some of these cheats should make it onto mass production cars.

I heard the story on Dale's podcast

Jimmy Means did something similar utilizing hydraulic pumps instead.

Do a vid on David Pearson's lead helmet. That's a great story which Pearson fully admitted was true years after his retirement.

@themotorsportstory

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the idea and for watching!

@MrJohnnyDistortion

Жыл бұрын

What's the short story on that?

@NealB123

Жыл бұрын

@@MrJohnnyDistortion He always left his helmet on the passenger side floor during pre-race inspection and weigh-in and the NASCAR officials never complained. So they packed a helmet with lead weights and started leaving it in the car instead. They removed the helmet prior to the race and he ran a car that weighed at least 50lbs less than the competition.

@MrJohnnyDistortion

Жыл бұрын

@@NealB123 But that lead helmet trick wouldn't have benefited them any unless weight was illegally shaved off somewhere else.

@NealB123

Жыл бұрын

@@MrJohnnyDistortion It was. They lightened the car by the same amount. That was the whole point so they could run an underweight car.

Jimmy means did his with hydrochloric actuators he still has the trunk and showed it on Stapleton42 KZread the other day n he never got caught the other fella you mentioned at the beginning did

@themotorsportstory

Жыл бұрын

Here's an archived newspaper article from 1992 that talks about Jimmy Means getting caught: greensboro.com/nascars-nelson-finds-teams-cheating/article_fe334adf-ed18-537e-8f19-a39fd4423e66.html I was surprised when I saw the Stapleton42 video that he said he never got caught. Not saying he's lying, he might've tried it a different year and not been found out. Thanks for watching!

@RLRSwanson

Жыл бұрын

@@themotorsportstory Apparently there's at least two different spoiler things Jimmy Means did, the flexible one in your video that he got caught with and the hydraulic cylinder deal he still has and shows in Stapleton42 the video that he didn't get caught with. Jimmy goes over the story of how they did the flexible one in the new shop tour video Stapleton42 posted and pretty much how they also got caught. Anyhow, it's interesting how your video and the ones on Stapleton's channel flesh each other out.

@themotorsportstory

Жыл бұрын

@@RLRSwanson That makes sense! Thanks for the comment!

@RLRSwanson

Жыл бұрын

@@themotorsportstory No problem. I realized that the spoiler that you mention isn't the one with the hydraulic actuation, when I got to the part of the shop tour video, where Jimmy and Mitchell are looking for the super thin aluminum brake calipers and Means tells the story where Jimmy Spencer had been caught first and how he had made the spoiler profile so that it had the correct angle only for the first three inches from the decklid. Then he describes how the spoiler sunk in an inch (I think that's what I heard) when Gary Nelson slammed his hand on the trunk lid.

Nascar needs either a push to pass button or a DRS system to help the passing.

@themotorsportstory

Жыл бұрын

Definitely would be interesting! Thanks for watching!

Sprint cars have been using a form of DRS for decades by the way

Andy talks about it on the Dale Jr podcast, it was awesome

cant remember the drag racer, larry millen maybe, i cant remember. but it was around the late 90's, and it was a night drag race, and it was the last run of the night for the top fuel funny cars, and half way down the track, larry dunn it might have been actually, anyways, one of the panels on his spoiler just collapsed, and he set the world record for spped in a funny car that night! i dont think they ever busted him for anything, but it seemed sketch, n still does to me.

Smokey would be proud.

Please, NASCAR, put Harry Gant in The Hall Of Fame where he belongs‼️🇺🇸🏁33/7

Again all new technology peer reviewed (let’s say) if the rule book doesn’t mention it then it’s legal. Fancar off the top of the head. Chapparell, lotus too if I recall and a thousand other ideas.

Oh, it was straight up cheating but man that was a great idea. Great job. 😊

Let's be clear on this. There were other teams doing the same thing at the same time. They were just using a hydraulic system rather than an electrical system.

@themotorsportstory

Жыл бұрын

Never said there weren't. This system was the most interesting to me and there was more info about it out there, so I thought it was deserving of its own video. Thanks for watching!

It's the same funny NASCAR story. Nascar bans something, team finds loophole to give car advantage, nascar finds out and bans it, rinse and repeat till nascar bans wheels...

Jimmy Means did a similar cheat and still has the special decklid. kzread.info/dash/bejne/aGyC19Cic7nTmKw.html Another trick he explains was how they'd fill the inner liner of one tire with water before the weigh in then take advantage of the rule allowing changing of one tire before the start of the race to replace it with one filled with air. For one race they figured they'd be extra cheaty and filled both right side tires with water, counting on an early caution to pit and change the tires. No caution was happening until their driver clipped the wall, bringing out a caution. He did little damage to his car and with two tires full of water replaced he was able to win the race. I suspect that post-race weighing of the cars put an end to that trick.

@acehigh79

Жыл бұрын

And yet means wasn't ever competitive lol

NASCAR was fun...

Insert Slapshoes 1992 references here

NASCAR would be better if they allowed these kind of “cheats” to be legal

@themotorsportstory

Жыл бұрын

I can see both sides. Sometimes having rules can breed even more creativity when people search for loopholes. Thanks for watching!

NASCAR, the only sport where technology only advances when teams cheat, probably.

I’m racing if you aren’t cheating you aren’t trying. That’s a sport, a game. Life has different rules

Wasn't just Harry's team

Couple coments about "Cheating" ..."If you ain't cheatin', you ain't racin'"..."It ain't cheatin' if you don't get caught". "If the rule book doesn't say you can't do it, it's not cheatin'"....until next week when Nascar makes a new rule. I personally consider the term "cheating" to be a word used by the ignorant and uninformed..."Creative Improvisational Engineering" is more accurate. EVERY crewchief is responsible for making thier machine as fast as humanly possible. I worked for a crazy man in that regard. He INSISTED there be a few things technicaly wrong with the car to distract the officials from what was REALLY wrong. Also, even if the rule book says you can't do something you try your damdest to do it....there is the "Liberal Interpretation of the rule" discusions with the officials...that usually ended with the official saying " Don't bring it back next week".

@ShainAndrews

Жыл бұрын

You used the word four times....

I will correct your statement that the spoiler was an "electronic" system. Since it was just a driver operated switch, it is electric, not electronic.

motorsports : what's the most intelligent way to pull a dumb cheat

Not Cheating but Over Engineering.

kzread.info/dash/bejne/aGyC19Cic7nTmKw.html I just saw this video the other day, where Jimmy Means talks through some ways they cheated. He talks about the same kind of DRS system, but controlled with hydraulics. I don't know anything about Nascar, but I found the video interesting nonetheless.

Wish this banned tech can be used on actual stock cars, since what's the point?

someone who may actually appreciate my powered boss 302 spoiler on my van project.. it has a weather boot thats also black so it wont be so obvious and I didn't care about hiding it.. but this is for some stability when highway driving or driving fast as high tops dont like cross winds . I wish the action were a bit faster but its the only way to get a static load of like 250 lbs or so. I'm working on a screen and arduino as a custom gauge to show me the position lol kzread.info/dash/bejne/dp2XxtKJZaXJpJM.html&ab_channel=DS

@themotorsportstory

Жыл бұрын

Awesome project! Having the screen sounds pretty neat once you get it figured out. Thanks for sharing!

@DS-mo6md

Жыл бұрын

@@themotorsportstory thanks! yeah it's a little ridiculous but conversion vans are meant to be. Under the cb console on the ceiling Winnebago designed a motorized trap door that lowers a hidden radar detector.very James bond. but yeah the larry shinoda spoiler for boss 302 was rumored by bud Moore and shinoda to create 250 lbs of force at full attack.. obv that's trans am speed of over 100 mph but I'm sure at 70 mph will help take some yaw out and stabilize it a bit from the 8 foot height. And in the end a fun party trick .. but action could be quicker lol

If you ain’t cheating, you ain’t trying!

@acehigh79

Жыл бұрын

Only sports this applies to: racing and pro wrestling lol

NASCAR has Dwonforce?? TIL

Cheating is only possible when there are rules preventing innovation. Undue the rules, it's an equal playing field.

Slight error, DRS in Formula 1 started in 2011, not 2001.

@themotorsportstory

Жыл бұрын

Did you watch the video?

Rule makers Rule breakers. Is what it is.

Cheat every way possible, true american spirit

I don’t sanction cheating. But what’s missing from motor sports is innovation. It’s innovation along with other things that made nascar great. This is where the slogan, win on Sunday, sell on Monday came from. Now it’s all about the driver who is driving a cookie cutter identically designed car. Much like the IROC series which is no more. Go figure.

Yeah, for some reason the concept of DRS is too "modern" for stock car racing that it is banned 🤦 Now they have a generic car for all teams, making "Stock car" in the name a misnomer.

It's not cheating if there isn't a rule against it.

I got Harry Gant's autograph 40 years ago. I thought it was the coolest thing. I've got no clue where that piece of paper is today and don't really care. Nascar is dead to me.

Don’t you think it is time to stop glorifying blatant cheating? NASCAR is a complete and total joke. It is no more a sport than pro wrestling is.

There were at least 3 nascar teams who used their own version of a powered adjustable rear spoiler. And that's just the ones that we know of, for now. Everyone was cheating in some ways or others. The simple fact of the matter was: if you weren't cheating somehow, you weren't winning races or finishing in the top 10.

@themotorsportstory

Жыл бұрын

Right. People who pretend cheating wasn't happening in racing (especially NASCAR) are only kidding themselves. Thanks for watching!