I had a similar experience to Ehrmann. I wanted to become a champion of the faith and so I studied the Greek and then the Hebrew. In the process while still a biblical Christian, I found myself disagreeing with many traditional doctrines, but also began discovering serious discrepancies that eventually destroyed for me the notion that the text represented anything authoritative or that Jesus intended to ever have a religion worshiping him. I remain an unattached agnostic theist, with an admiration of Jesus as I understand him.

"Everybody has 24 hours in their day. I tend to be able to focus pretty well and so I can get a lot done in a short amount of time." There you have it folks. No excuses.

@nikokapanen82

4 жыл бұрын

@David Anewman Everything will count. Every word you have said, everything you knew and did not know, where you was born, what you were taught, how corrupted your nature was at birth and so on. All of it will be put before God and you and then justly judged.

@theeconomicrevolutionist

4 жыл бұрын

@@nikokapanen82 Judgement, placement and eternity are very difficult concepts to address. I don't know anyone who really knows the truth of these concepts. These concepts are attempting to explain the divine issues we have with the unseen, the untouchable and anything not tangible. When my baby son died in my hands back in 2015 two days after birth in NICU due to a very difficult pregnancy and a very severe birth defect, I understood for the very first time in my life that I did not understand or comprehend anything. Good and evil became the same. Happy and pain became the same. Provision and taken became the same. There is no difference between the two competing ideas. Life, right? So, judgement or no judgement is the same. Placement or no placement is the same. Eternity or no eternity is the same. It all just converges into the same thing, the same thing it was before we experienced our experiences. Life.

@rationalsceptic7634

4 жыл бұрын

David Anewman Christianity isnt actually true or historical!

@kpmorgan

4 жыл бұрын

David Anewman 🤦🏼‍♂️

I have learned so many things from this man. I agree with things he says and of course I disagree with some other things he says. But I admire him for his personality, his intelligence and his work.

@PaulCaden

4 жыл бұрын

Free thinkers should be terrified of their man made almighty 'god' . He sent us the virus, lol, and threatens to have all who don't idolize him, burn for eternity in "hell'. Is this not criminal insanity? That's why we shld all be terrified of Christian, Islamic, Hindu etc zealots. Can't forget that During Christian Inquisitions etc (1300s-1800's) non-believers were butchered/burned at the stake, to brutally force all to succumb to Christianity, based on New Testament written bet 50 to 300 AD, as no writer ever met JC! His miracles walking on water, rising from the dead, etc were based on hearsay from uneducated Iron age peasants! Yet they butchered scientists, free thinkers!

Thanks for this, Bart, and Seth! I’ve been binging on your online content lately, Dr. Erhman, and look forward to getting the new book! ✌🏼

Love it, Bart! Thanks for making this knowledge accessible to us all.

Such a great book by Dr Ehrman. Again.

Thank you Seth and Bart for y'alls great discussion and helping me on my deconversion path...

Undoing religion's oppression during my formative years has been a long, lonely journey. The work done by AronRa, Dillahunty, Harris, Ehrman, Carrier, Price and, in particular, Seth Andrews have been resources for the intellect. Great interview. Thanks Seth.

@mikean7074

6 жыл бұрын

LaGuan Hayes Oh my non-existent God you didn't mention Christopher Hitchens?? BLASPHEMY!! Recite 10 Hail Sagan prayers and hope that Lord Hawking forgives you!

@paradisecityX0

6 жыл бұрын

LaGuan Hayes Carrier, Aron Ra, Harris? "Resources for the intellect?", LOL

@paradisecityX0

6 жыл бұрын

LaGuan Hayes I think you'll like China, it's the other way around over there. Btw all the guys you listed, except Price and Ehrman, are ideological Anti-theists. One-sided much? Try Francis Collins, High Ross, Inspiring Philosophy, JP Holding, David Wood, Michael Heiser, and - if you live in this upside-down reality where only atheists are smart - Tim O'Neill and Stefan Molyneux and Friended Forever, if you want real intellectual resources

@robinlillian9471

4 жыл бұрын

LaGuan Hayes: You are just replacing religion with a different form of oppression. Religion was illegal in the former USSR, but people were still repressed and tortured in Gulag prisons. The problem is in human nature and not some mythology.

@shonagraham2752

4 жыл бұрын

Sorry you decided to repress yourself through Harris because choosing narcissism instead of critical thought is also oppression of authenticity

Glad that you made it to Seth Andrews' show, Bart. I haven't read any of your books (yet) and only really know you from KZread, but that's enough to make you a hero to me. Thanks for your work and dedication. You rock!

Great interview. I really appreciate the fact that both of you are very respectful and keep the discussion academic and honest as well as thought provoking. Good mind-porn.

As a Christian I found this video really interesting 👍

@sagebias2251

4 жыл бұрын

As an atheist, I found this video really interesting.

@JoseMartinez-jr3sx

4 жыл бұрын

NightmareEntity he is lying how about the crowds and crowds and crowds and crowds and crowds that crowded Christ and he has no choice but to admit that Constantine didn’t started Christianity

@Heretical_Theology

4 жыл бұрын

Be careful. When I first heard Ehrman speak, I wanted to learn more and became an atheist 6 months later.

@hassanmuhammad2799

4 жыл бұрын

I've got FORGED, MISQUOTING JESUS, LOST CHRISTIANANITIES, HOW DID JESUS BECOME GOD, and several others. I read them periodically over and over. Professor Bart Ehrman has an "uncanny" ability to take the tedious work of TEXTUAL CRITICISM and "spoon feed" it into the minds of those who couldn't possibly understand the field of study. His books are great reads for ANYONE who wants to understand MORE the composition of the Bible.

@PaulCaden

4 жыл бұрын

They don't dare Google to find out New Testament was written bet 50 to 300 AD. Not one writer ever met JC! His countless miracles walking on water, rising from the dead, etc had no witnesses, only hearsay from uneducated Iron age peasants! MRI scans prove there are parts of the brain that benefit from meditation and a belief system and that is why there have been over 2,800 "gods" in recorded history.

Good interview and thanks Seth and Bart.

Best interview ever! Thanks

This is such a good interview! I'm a Christian, but thank you, Dr. Ehrman! 😊

So good. Dr Ehrman, you rocks.

Dr Ehrman, you are a bright funny man. Enjoy your talks.

Well done. This changes everything.

An awesome interview!

Great interview!

Well done interview. Very informative. Thank you for addressing the mythicist issue so patiently.

@tessalyyvuo1667

4 жыл бұрын

I think he sounded a bit arrogant about it. Assuming all mythicists have some agenda. I mean sure, some of them may well have. But to assume all of them, that just seems arrogant.

great show- both of you do great work

Worth noting the beautiful thing about Dr. Ehrman's blog is he gives all of the money to charity. I believe to feed starving children.

I'm so going to buy that book! (As well as "Forged", "Jesus Interrupted" and "Misquoting Jesus")

@raysalmon6566

4 жыл бұрын

You can loan them on Libby But they are not good books

Love this!! I found great respect for him while watching his debates with Daniel B Wallace.. I love his passion.. Oh yeah, I'm a Christian... Thanks Bart..

Love and admire these men, Seth and Bart, learn so much from them on reality away from superstitious clap trap

Bart is the man.... Ive Learned so much from his teachings!!!!

@nandinibandhini

6 жыл бұрын

Same here. His books are great to read and a treasure to have. He is a very scholarly man.

@historicalbiblicalresearch8440

5 жыл бұрын

I always listen several times, there's so much to absorb

@einc70

5 жыл бұрын

It's so much better if YOU search it yourself instead of relying on someone else's saying it. Soon you will become like the muslims, abandoning their own scriptures and relying 100% on what other people have to say what truth is. "Truth" absolute comes from on High nowhere else. If you are an atheist then the council is relevant to you as well. Start reading the texts as a historical document and work your way all the way to the top which is fine.

this man is a blessing

Hating going to church until I heard this. I have read the book, but that was over a year ago. In some weird way I was excited for Sunday school after hearing this interview. Paul the apostle is my favorite individual in Christianity, and this interview reminded me why. Felt re-energized with my intellectual-faith. Thanks.

Dr. Ehrman was instrumental for me. His works reinforced my atheist views.

Great interview

It is so interesting the psicofenome happening in the mind of Bart. In deed a great historiam.

When my brain stops working, as I'm sure it will, I will no longer be conscious. This is obvious, having fainted a few times and having been anesthetized for an operation. When I am unconscious, I will feel no pain and have no memory of any events or people. So I don't care whether I go to Hell or Heaven because I won't know.

@nikokapanen82

3 жыл бұрын

Soul is extremely conscious and emotional, so you ending down to hell will be a horror of a lifetime.

@19perception83

3 жыл бұрын

@@nikokapanen82 someone doesn't know their bible. Sheol, haydes, gehenna, tartaris all mean hell and there's no eternal torment. It's destruction upon death therefore its eternal. Listen to Edward fudge refining fire for an entire biblical overview of every passage about hell explained. It's very very clear.

Dr. Bart Ehrman is a miracle of god clearing the dusty air.

I was a Catholic for years, then a fundamental Christian for a few years, then a Christian Universalist for a few years, then an atheist for a year or two, now I’m an agnostic, I don’t know what to think. And I really don’t know what to think about this guy.

@umunhum3

6 жыл бұрын

This guy is a bookworm He knows everything and understands nothing Spiritual Knowledge can only come from Gnosis (Experience) not from studying or reading scripture You will not understand the Parables of The Bible until you experience them

@MikeJw-je4xk

5 жыл бұрын

Ignore umunhum3. This person obviously has never read a Bart Ehrman book, is obviously still hugely indoctrinated into superstition to the effect of making his own religion. Bart considers himself both an atheist and an agnostic for different reasons. I would suggest you read his book 'Jesus, Interrupted'. It is excellent and well explains much about the facts of the actual biblical writers, the gospels, Paul's epistles, many other Christian cults besides the "winning" one and more. The most early true (through out superstition of course) cult the Ebionites was cast out as heresy. I loved this book!

Great interviene. Very scholarly.

Very nice interview. I am a devout Christian and once again Bart Erhman keeps enforcing my faith like no other Christian. I just love his neutral insight about the bible, very refreshing. God does work in mysterious ways. :)

@thomasanderson1416

6 жыл бұрын

I think so too.

@paradisecityX0

6 жыл бұрын

Yasu Al Masih l think you'll like historyforatheists.com then. Another insightful atheist historian

@yasualmasih9058

6 жыл бұрын

Jerome Reiter, I actually own and read three of his books. Did Jesus Exist, Misquoting Jesus, and Forged. I am going to buy his last book as well. The more I read and study his material, I keep coming to conclusion he is doing more good for theology than bad. This is why I keep saying God is using him. :)

@ntr10me

6 жыл бұрын

Not sure how helpful your contribution here is. Everyone else in this thread is on a journey of sorts, and they're being moderately proactive. If you could take another shot at it, how would you frame what you said? Or are you at heart someone who enjoys ad hominem?

@theaviationist.5719

6 жыл бұрын

This is what they call indoctrination / brainwashed.. Lack of critical thinking or rationality. You are shown evidence that point to the gospels being man made and poor.. But because you are so indoctrinated, so close-minded you put fingers into your ears and say "La la la la la la, blah blah blah blah etc, can't hear youu".. Like the typical Trump supporter, they keep being shown trump to be a clown but they bury their heads in the sand and claim "FAKE NEWS".. The guy is on AUDIO bragging about sexually harassing women "GRABBING THEM BY THE PUSSY without their consent". But the trump supporters cite "Liberal Fake News Media"... Hahahaha... lol

Definitely at the top of my long-airplane-ride fantasy companion list.

Hello Bart! I’ve only recently become aware of your work and would like to say thank you! Have you done anything regarding Pauline Authority, specifically in relation to the doctrines of the Essenes, Nazarenes and Ebionites?

@FoamySlobbers

3 жыл бұрын

Bart Ehrman blog

I was starting to think these guys were the same guy. I'm glad I found this video.

@Oners82

4 жыл бұрын

You thought they were the same guy???

love u guys

Dr. Ehrman have you seen the movie "Agora"? If so, generally speaking, how much of the way christianity is depicted to have spread resembles history vs. fiction? And how much of that was a wide spread trend vs isolated cases?

This waa beautiful

Bart Ehrman is impressive.

Where do you get these numbers of Christians from, Dr. Ehrman ?

Ain’t Seth the most silky voiced atheist?

@unwishfulthink

3 жыл бұрын

The dude has got the most epic voice like that guy in screen junky. I need him to say "Arise, Rodimus Prime!"

Thank god for bert ehrman. Thank god for seth andrews. Thank god for seth andrews' voice.

A few points on Constantine from Catholic Traditions: Constantine's mother, St. Helena, was a Christian. It was made possible for her to build churches and curate for sacred relics like the True Cross. This was all before Constantine converted himself, as he stated "I could not be a Christian and perform my duties effectively as Emperor of Rome," which is why he waited until the very end of his life to convert. Constantine was considered an outsider to the Roman political system even though he practiced for his father's role his entire life - this is because Helena was not a noble, she was low-birth. Constantine was considered perhaps a step above an illegitimate heir. But the spikes from the cross, which were forged into Constantine's helm and shield at his mother's insistence helped lead to the vision of the cross in the sky before the battle.

I'm glad Ehrman went in the direction he did and not the way one Ioseb Jughashvili did after leaving the seminary!

What I found funny about the Roman Christian religion is that they told the pagans to give up all their gods and then replaced them all with saints that played the exact same roles as the old pagan demi-gods. LOL And, then they went on to replace all the statues of Zeus, Appollo, etc with statutes of Jeebus, Mary and all the saints (demi-gods) so they really didn't change a whole lot, just names and faces. LMAO

@AtheistEve

6 жыл бұрын

RhondaH Haha. And now we atheists (well many of us online) are replacing those statues and icons of Jesus, Peter, Paul etc with people like Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson, Lawrence Krauss, Matt Dillahunty and even personas like “Sargon of Akkad”, “Armored Skeptic” etc (FCOL). We’re definitely made up of followers of the lesser gods. People always seem to need their heroes, even if they are flawed (or even concocted) zeros reinterpreted as heroes.

@paradisecityX0

5 жыл бұрын

@@goodgirlkay "Tribal war god", cute

@kenzeier2943

5 жыл бұрын

RhondaH And there was a later Reformation that debunked the iconism of Rome

@timewa851

5 жыл бұрын

the more things change, you know the rest.

@stevem7945

5 жыл бұрын

@@paradisecityX0 How about genocide God? Canaanites, Amalekites etc...

Nice...

My issue with the gospels is there are paragraphs of quoted text. There is no way people can remember that decades later. Sure, a letter can be copied and a few things change over the years but maintain some reliability. A story with an omniscient narrator, lengthy quoted dialogue, with volumes that vary greatly, is just that... a story

The Roman Empire was in serious decline at the beginning of the 4th century.

5:04... Unlikely, as if in ... every religion before them believed in much more strange stuff than resurrection, quite popular too back in their days.

This discussion seems almost like trying to figure out how many angels are dancing on the head of a pin. I would like to see this same type of discussion talk about the existence (or not) of Gods relative to the biblical interpretations of just who was Yahweh.

A little learning is a dangerous thing.

22:30 is the best part! the atheists was hopping that Bart will endorse Jesus mysticism...

@Keira_Blackstone

3 жыл бұрын

I really don't see why jesus being a historical figure is a problem for atheists. While I suppose it would be a slam dunk that christianity was false if he didn't, him existing does exactly nothing to prove he actually had any of the divine traits attributed to him.

So this is unrelated, but can anyone tell me about Margaret Barker's reputation? Most of what I'm finding online about her is from Mormons trying to use her to bolster their doctrines. Is there any connection between Barker and Ehrman? Have they met?

Erhman mentions That the Gospel writers did not have access to Paul. I wonder why, if he was as early as scholars believe he was and the Gospels were written as late as scholars believe they were.

This guy knows more about historian bible than anyone on earth. Yet, a higher group of people were threatened by him. And slammed the door on his knowledge.. this guy still explains a micro amount of what he really knows.

Bart Ehrman gave 20 years of his life to go back to the left literature of the 1-2-3d centuries, and conducts historical conclusion. People on these comments are siting on their chairs doing nothing but wiaitng for others to write the book and then after the book published they criticize the persons work, like they have ever done anything to prove their point except denying the historical documents of that era.

@stevepolanco9887

4 жыл бұрын

Nick Tham That’s exactly what you are doing.

@majesticrainmaker1460

4 жыл бұрын

@@stevepolanco9887 lol

This professor is more a true scholar. He respect the evidence and he submit to truth .. ..... his view is more balance than atheist Richard Carrier. This person has logic and common sense ...

Has any historian compared the spreads of Islam vs Christianity?

Dr Ehrman is a national treasure!

@dah8914

4 жыл бұрын

Maybe you should store your treasures in heaven, otherwise good luck.

As Ken Ham would ask in triumph over the godless, "Were you THERE?"

@headlights4395

4 жыл бұрын

To which the reply is, "Were YOU?"

@miguelpereira9859

3 жыл бұрын

"In triumph" LOL

Well I mean I argue that the appeal of Christianity didn't depend (and still doesn't depend) on any one simplistic idea ("you're just a Christian because you're afraid of death"), but had and has a whole number effective at the same time. Several wonderful dreams, any one of which on its own could be personally overwhelming and life-changing. This apart from philosophical apologetics as such, which is only important to intellectuals who demand or need intellectually satisfying argumentation to support doctrines, which isn't everybody. That there is a God is just one of the wonderful dreams - that one is not and need not be existentially alone. That not just some spiritual creature, but the creator of the Universe, has a passionate love towards you the individual, every individual, who you can have as your friend and supporter through life. The second, and this was transformational within classical Greek and Roman polytheism, is religion coming with a consistent, coherent, and arguably beautiful moral and spiritual manual, because that is what polytheism largely lacked (and of course atheism lacks). Polytheism said that there are the many gods of nature which you must placate and bribe to have good fortune and avoid misfortunes, but there is no instructional manual for how to live or how to have inner spirituality other than you must make lots of sacrifices and perform lots of ceremonies as you go about your business. There were the philosophical schools wrestling with the problem of how to live ethically, but they were a minority; elite academic societies which the common people weren't part of and perhaps mostly couldn't understand. None was authoritative for all polytheists. So the moral and spiritual instructional features of the Old and New testaments, and their centrality within the teaching (that there even was a teaching), met an unfulfilled need for guidance that existed within polytheistic society (and exists again today). Judaism was growing within the Empire even despite the relatively higher barriers to entry to judaism for this reason. The third is the promise of non-violent world revolution, under the rubric of the kingdom of God on earth. The Bible, right from the outset, takes an explicit and consistent stance against class inequality and oppression. Leviticus 25 and Deuteronomy 15 mandate 7 and 49 yearly swingeing redistribution of wealth and property to eradicate inequality, wipe out private debts and release people from indentured servitude. The Law of Moses conditionalized private property upon need, rather than absolutised it, and forbade profit on land sales, as well as lending at interest. The prophets unleashed blistering invective against inequality and the rich worthy of Noam Chomsky, and Jesus drove the merchants and money changers out of the Temple forecourt with a whip for turning the place into a market. His parables of the kingdom of God mainly identify it with the fulfilment of those promises of drastic and revolutionary redistribution of wealth ordained in Leviticus, he and his disciples lived out of a common purse, and then immediately after the pentecost, in the next verse in Acts 2, the first church inaugurates primitive communism, sharing everything in common and calling nothing their own, and suddenly having no poverty among themselves. The new co-operative enterprise model and lifestyle is re-iterated in Acts 4, and the church invents deacons to take responsibility for the church's egalitarian redistributive practises so that the apostles can specialise in preaching. For slavery-ridden Roman society, for the Roman proletarii and plebii and all the immiserated colonial peasantry and urban poor, as well as the slaves, this was naturally wonderfully appealing stuff, even as a far-away promise of things to come at the second coming. Prior to Constantine, to greater or lesser degree, this was stuff the church was also still doing, or attempting. Even after Constantine it remains in the text of scripture, still crops up in preaching and the lives of monks, and is referenced in liturgy, despite being cast as the life of heaven, rather than available on earth. But the dream of revolution was still being presented, even if only as dream, as Marx later commented upon. The fourth wonderful dream is the overcoming and ending of death consequent upon the resurrection of Jesus. Not only was Jesus resurrected, but because he was resurrected, the story goes, the promise is revealed of God's intention for all, or at least all who love Jesus and are trying to inaugurate his new kind of world, that all shall ultimately be resurrected. So there is an afterlife, not merely as an idea, but trialled in history, demonstrated by a physical event, and this being the arrival and culmination of scripture's implicit promise that since death came into the world because of sin, where before there was no death, so with the resolving of the problem of sin, with the availability of divine forgiveness, death can be removed from the world. This is obviously, problematic to believe. Not only does it depend on a somewhat literal reading of the Eden story, it requires setting aside much of what we know and understand about the reality of animal life, and indeed the philosophical meaning and necessity of death. We must die so that there can be new things in the world. Death is the price of birth, and life is a gift with a time limit, which is what makes it all the more precious. Nevertheless it is a dream with immense power to inspire and transform individuals. So to me the growth of Christianity is not that hard to understand, once you understand and take on board the overwhelming appeal of Christianity's complex of interrelated dreams, rather than maintaining a blind-spot about their existence.

Bart says Jesus is a liar because he said that "this generation will not fall away before they see the Kingdom of God come in power."...then he writes a book about how the Kingdom of God came in power in that generation...unbelievable.

I have not seen Dr. Ehrman making any claims on the estimated probability of historicity. Carrier has it at 1/3.

@philalexander2268

4 жыл бұрын

@Stacy Caruso says the person who doesn't understand a damn thing about probability. Have you even read Carrier's work ?

Those sayings seem to be earlier scriptures as teachings from Buddhism that was two hundred years before. Stories all seem to come from before.

There are references to a suffering servant in the OT (which also exist in other traditions) that were applied to Jesus by Christians.

@espositogregory

4 жыл бұрын

Templetonq which themselves do not overlap with the Jewish messiah

Is Jerome the same as rusty writer? I don't see a comment from a Jerome that everyone is objecting to. As for rusty writer's comment, I think he's referring to "the tales grow longer on down the line" Jesus.

Bart is a really smart guy!! I think he is not trying to convince Christians not to believe. But to tell the facts plainly! Now I know the truth! I know see the bible differently because I thought it was inerrant. Which I see is silly now. I love Bart because he is honest. Even if Athiest get mad at him for saying Jesus existed. I mean he has good credibility.

I love the Atheist community in the US but we in Australia dont have Christianity dominating the conversation so much, so we don't need it.

I'm a Christian, but I agree with Dr Ehrman completely here.

Bart seems to believe that Ancient Europeans were incapable of Art prior to Christianity. We have entire museums filled with artifacts that disprove him. Also Pythagoras made some pretty major contributions to music theory and he was centuries before Christ. Not sure why Christians always belittle and ignore their forebears, but its frustrating.

@TimBee100

4 жыл бұрын

I think he is talking about the Catholic Church paying musicians to write some of the great music or pay artist to paint the last supper. Certainly, they would be painting something else equally as great or writing music equally as great about something else.

I keep thinking of that mexican woman who "saw" Jesus' face in a tortilla.

The statues of the gods were NOT the gods, although it was believed that the spirits of the gods did occasionally inhabit the statues

Tacitus and Pliny didn't know about Jesus. They report that some people called Christians exist and that they believe in something. That's the equivalent of saying that if I report on the existence of Mormons and their beliefs, that makes their beliefs true.

@Thagomizer

5 жыл бұрын

From Tacitus himself: "My object in mentioning and refuting this story is, by a conspicuous example, to put down hearsay, and to request that all those into whose hands my work shall come not to catch eagerly at wild and improbable rumours in preference to genuine history." (Tacitus, Annals, IV.11)

@claytonveno3710

3 жыл бұрын

@@Thagomizer The Annals Is a Forgery of Tacitus' work reasons being: 1.Tacitus himself knows nothing of Christ or Christians in any of his other writings 2 Clement of Alexandria who's whole Job was to scour the writings of pagan authors to find anything that would validify Christianity dosen't mention this passage 3 Tertullian who was familliar with Tacitus' writings makes no mention of it either 4 there is no mention of the Annals even existing until the 15th century hundreds of years after he (Tacitus) died 5 Origen in his works admit that very few christians had been persecuted for there faith and that they were easily numbered contradicting Tacitus' supposed claims of a mass martyrdom of Christians 6 Nero wasn't even in rome around the time the fire supossedly happened 7 there is no evidence outside of the Annals that such a fire or mass persecution ever took place and you'd think if rome had been set ablaze that all historians would have recorded it but not a single one save only for supposedly Tacitus does and not even the early church fathers allude towards a fire in relation to the crimes of Nero Lastly All images depicting Nero burning Rome potray him as holding a violin which didn't even exist until the 11th century implying this is yet another fabricated persecution story by the early church. As for Pliny according to Hadrian and Suetonius Serapis was called Christ and his followers Christians and Pliny worked near by were Serapis was commonly worshipped and thus was most likely interrogating Serapis Christians.

Great interview. And while i know you have no interested in debating Richard Carrier, i would wonder if it would ever be possible for you two to just have a skype discussion (NOT debate). Casual, drinking some beer/wine, 2 hours on Skype on a Friday night, and just see if any middle ground could be found. As far as someone with a differing idea from yours Bart, I would think Carrier would be the one you would find most intellectually stimulating. The last thing i would want to see between you two is a formal debate, but a casual discussion i think would be amazing.

@paradisecityX0

6 жыл бұрын

lorenavedon Carrier? "Intellectually stimulating"? Unemployed blogger, sexual predator, egomaniac, and shit-talker; that Carrier?

@mustlovesharks1

6 жыл бұрын

Carrier would eat him alive.

If history is a matter of probability then is more probable that the church and early Christians were more right than wrong. That many would haven't rather died for what they experienced with Jesus otherwise.

Not sure whether or not to finish.....Bart has started off by showing his "establishment" side... "on this I think the gospels can be trusted".

@miguelpereira9859

3 жыл бұрын

He seemed honest there, not pandering at all

Dr. Ehrman, thanks for your excellent work. Your work does not weaken my faith in Jesus Christ at all, rather, it strengthens my faith. Christianity has transformed Europe and America from the most barbaric to the most civilized continents. Many people living there do not realize how lucky they are. They just take it for granted. I wish more and more people come to Jesus because HE is the light, the truth and the life. Especially, I wish China embrace Christianity and be transformed to a great democratic civilized country.

@FoamySlobbers

3 жыл бұрын

how do you get past the "none of the supernatural things said about him are true" part?

Does Christianity actually feed on empires?

I really liked how he shut down the radio show host when he tried to allude to the fact that Jesus did not exist.

At one stage around the early part of 4th century, before Christianity became the official religion of the state, there were more Christians who believed that Jesus was not God but a prophet living a Godly life like all the prophets like him in history. However, doctrines were established as a way of making everyone believe the same thing which in return Romans used to establish unity in their Empire. So what we consider as absurdities now then became law for all to believe because it simply unified the Empire and bishops were primarily state civil servants following the Imperial edicts and laws from where the Church's canon law evolved from. It is largely about power and control over people and the all the stakes thereof for all who align themselves with the status quo and the so-called "orthodox" faith. Seminaries are the best places now where people start doubting and realize that they hugely committed but know so little about their faith. So their emotional faith which is what faith largely is (a matter of heart and also for some parts of the world an inescapable cultural and national appendage) become under pressure and they realize they are not able to resist the historical evidence and reason!

@umunhum3

6 жыл бұрын

It doesn't matter what you believe or have faith in Jesus the man became Jesus The Christ and Returned to BEing GOD after he opened the 7 seals in The Book of Revelation That is a Statement of Fact YOU ARE GOD pretending to be an individual That is also a Statement of Fact You are going to be stuck in the physical body pretending to be a individual until you open the 7 seals too Until then have fun chasing desires for transitory sensations in the Time and Space based illusion your mind is creating for you

Lawful neutral vs chaotic neutral, Ehrman vs Andrews

He answered a question I've been wondering, how was Paul converted if it wasn't the risen Christ

@robinlillian9471

4 жыл бұрын

Or maybe Paul was just an opportunist who saw his chance to make it big. He spread Christianity to pagans, and this made him far more powerful than he would have been otherwise. No one would have remembered him if he had stuck with his original job.

@fredericksmith9689

4 жыл бұрын

Paul was supposedly "converted" by being thrown from his horse by a bolt of lightning, blinded, and told what to do to get his sight back. If this had happened to anyone, they would have been "converted" too. I don't think he had much of a choice. LOL

@j.p.vanbolhuis8678

4 жыл бұрын

@@fredericksmith9689 Considering that Paul was a pharisee, there is a more deep level going on in that story. Remember that Jesus is supposed to be a descendent of Jesus. Paul, (Jewish name Saul) hears a voice that says "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me" For a pharisee this directly remembers how David (before he was king) stood on a hill and shouted this to king Saul. And king Saul was in the wrong. So a pharisee sees a repeat of a the story where an unjust Saul is persecuting an innocent David.

@FoamySlobbers

3 жыл бұрын

@demonio Azul I've seen captain crunch too.

I like Ehrman's books but in many places I find the lack of good evidence for his assertions rather problematic. E.g. how does he know there were 20 people believing a Jesus rose from the dead? Why can't the story have been made up or cooked up, influenced from other myths? Also other things he mentions sound more like conjectures. Obviously the history of early Christianity is difficult to study due to lack of reliable historical records, but building up a probable story without sufficient evidence doesn't really convince me.

@paradisecityX0

6 жыл бұрын

metaldude Try historyforatheists.com

@metaldude

6 жыл бұрын

then you should also believe all other myths and resurrections. Obviously you have no clue about how we know whether something is historically accurate or not, and besides, FOR OUR LIVES IT DOESN'T MATTER if something about some philosopher is incorrect, and we know there are uncertainties about many historical records and not claiming what you think we are. As for the biblical "prophecies" - yeah, they are debunked, jus have a look online.

@metaldude

6 жыл бұрын

try logical thinking

Who said "Paul was persecuting Christians before he became a Christian"? The writer of Act of the Apostles, that's who, but we have no idea who that was or if he was telling the truth about Paul.

@bromponie7330

6 жыл бұрын

"Paul was persecuting Christians before he became a Christian" Our best two sources for that is Luke and Paul himself confirms that. There's also a tradition present in Galatians that suggest it was known of by some other communities. "we have no idea who that was" Of course we do, it was Luke. And even if you don't hold that view, its quite the overstatement to say we have " _no idea._ "

Used to be a historicist because I trusted the experts but have recently moved more to a mythicist position (i'm only 60-40 in favor of mythicism). Ehrman claims the mythicists have an agenda while it may be the case for some, there is a clear agenda/bias from Christian scholars. I find his confidence in historicity to be disproportionate to the evidence which in this case is terrible and not definitive. His best evidence is that Paul mentions Jesus brother yet in Romans Paul says that all baptized Christians are brothers of the Lord. Furthermore, Moses had siblings and yet the consensus is that he was fictional. There is a case to be made for both historicity and mythicism and I find certainty in either direction to be intellectually dishonest.

@Oners82

4 жыл бұрын

Have you seen the Ehrman/Price debate? Ehrman blows mythicism out of the water!

I've read three of Bart Ehrman's books, have a couple waiting to be read, and I appreciate his hard work, his expertise, and his bravery. What I don't appreciate is when he says "I wanted to go wherever the evidence was leading me, not just simply where I wanted to go". That's a veiled accusation inferring that people who disagree with him are simply not following the evidence. Other than insulting opponents with ad hominem, I'm not sure what that even means. You can't know motives unless you can read minds. Bart WANTS to follow the evidence; other people DON'T WANT to follow the evidence. How can you assert something like that? I can't read minds myself, but I would guess that most atheists in the audience know the pain of following evidence that flies in the face of what they have been brought up to believe. Personally, I didn't become an atheist because I "simply wanted" to follow that path. It was a frightening, sickening and heart-wrenching choice to follow that path, as I'm sure it was for every "fallen" Christian. Give atheists some credit and some empathy. Stop implying that you are the only one making a tough decision based on your best moral and intellectual efforts.

Nothing that he says is either new to christianity and still millions and millions are brought to him. And still Bart himself says to rather live under Christ philosophy of life.

"The Trump of Christianity". A previous misreading of mine that still scares me xD

I've heard of the "Pisco Flavian Dynasty" theory and it sounds 'credible' . I never heard Bart nor Seth ever talk/elaborate about it , if I missed something please let me know :) if not , then I'd like to hear their views on it :)

Have Carrier on to refute him.

@paradisecityX0

5 жыл бұрын

How about an actual scholar, who DOESN'T get defensive when you criticise him?

Could James and Jesus be identical twins? O_o explains the "Resurrection" lie pretty well. Also ... if that could be true, that why can't other things be just poetic imagination? IMO, Robert Eisenman has the best stuff on Jesus...

Ehrman, like many former tried-and-true believers, have a clear soft spot for Christianity. He seems to embrace the cultural achievements and and identity, embracing the story, while holding the resurrection as hyperbole or myth. Just the initial statement about our composers, our huge cultural artifacts that would have never come into being, seems impossible to stand behind or prove. If we were a great pagan society, Beethoven would not have loved music? Renaissance lords in Italy and Germany would not have commissioned artists? Remove Christianity and something fills the cultural vacuum, and the Roman legacy that Christianity donned is probably donned by something else. Anyway, it's just a lot of attributed "triumph" that Ehrman finds particularly Christian, because he lives and breathes Christianity in his career and research, in his former belief system, and as a cultural keystone even if he doesn't ascribe to personal salvation and the religious experience. He very readily states he can rely on certain aspects of the New Testament as fact, where they do not upset his worldview - that largely the teachings and emergence of Jesus and Christianity happened as told, with some ipso-facto godly flourish. That seems to be where he breaks down with his critics, who go a step further - how does Ehrman know certain things are factual to the point in time he attributes them, while other passages are later interpolations and clearly reworking the content, and inventing whole-cloth? How does Dr. Ehrman place so much on a passage from Paul "I met no one there but Peter and James, the brother of the lord"? Carrier's suggestion that James was some other initiate in the Church, as all called each other brothers and sisters of the lord, has some merit. Even if unlikely, it's unacknowledged and dismissed as preposterous. Or that the passage was a later invented encounter to give creedence to Paul's leadership as other sects placed more authority in Peter's teachings - and Paul (or his followers) needed to create a convergence? While I get that it's likely a Jesus walked and talked in Galilee and Judea, Dr. Ehrman's outright dismissive of any possibility he may be wrong, that his [beloved] source material may be a little more invented, or copied, than he's willing to attribute to it. It's a strong hubris that suggests he's not as critical of the source material as others and therefore dismisses any others who are. Frustrating.

@misscameroon8062

5 жыл бұрын

You my want to talk about soft spots,but you just overlook the simplicity ,without any connotations of sympathy that the 1600 years of Christianity certainly left a traces all over the culture of the world,it`s just so simple.

@countvanbruno182

4 жыл бұрын

Bart seems to believe that Ancient Europeans were incapable of Art prior to Christianity. We have entire museums filled with artifacts that disprove him.

@fossrampant5826

4 жыл бұрын

He didn't suggest that, for instance, 'Beethoven would not have loved music'. What he was saying is that Beethoven would have loved music very differently. The fact of the matter is that, without the Christiasn monastic movement that fostered early music through the elaborate development of chant and the early development of Western polyphony, Western music could easily have developed in ways that would have meant the music of Beethoven, as we know it, never existed.

@miguelpereira9859

3 жыл бұрын

@@countvanbruno182 That is not what he said. He said we would still have great artists but they would have been different people

@dorson723

3 жыл бұрын

Bart say the world without Christianity would be different, but he never addressed impact of the dark age. So he is speaking honestly and be soft on his former religion.

The Imperium of Man demands your faith. Any appealing of improprietary apples will lead to medical school applications being ... beyond.... denied.

The book title is a bit misleading. It sounds as if Christianity has won the entire battle, proven out, become truly triumphant. This is not the case. Maybe "The Successes of the Christian Movement".

I enjoyed this discussion. And I did not like this discussion simultaneously. So here is my problem. I have been involved traditional Christianity belief system for 20+ years, and this is the first time I have heard these arguments provided by this discussion. That means, I have believed in a lie or lies within some truths yet I have studied the Bible and other religions. I recently began to question my Christian faith. So the following... Per this discussion, it is my argument that the apostle Paul was not killing "Christians", per his questionable conversion to Christianity, but instead killing the people of the "Way", a radical sect of the Judaism that was strongly affected by mysticism and mythology or those that believed more of an astrotheological philosophy strongly passed from original Pagan beliefs over time to questioning individuals that formed a new religion of the time. They were a threat to Judaism. Paul was always a Hebrew gnostic after conversion from Judaism, even post Jesus. Additionally, the Jesus of Nasareth may not have been from Nasareth, so the "Way" appears to be a better place to start. Thus, astrotheology may have better answers to the early onset of Christianity. Here is what I am arguing. From the "Way" you get "Christianity" which becomes an institutional distortion of the "Way" through its evolution in time adding Jesus to the themes. What I really want to convey to you is why are there no historical records of common day folks of that early AD era writing about Jesus, their experiences with Jesus and their impacts of Jesus being real to them? Because the institutional Jesus of the Bible is not fully disclosed to us appropriately. We don't know and can't know the real Jesus because any evidence that did exist was lost and or destroyed. All was lost in time. Now you have to consider your beliefs, how real are they and what evidence are you using to form your beliefs.

Christianity cost us more pagan artists, and worst yet the preservation of our oldest art. Just imagine how someone like Pascal as a pagan would be.