The pitfall of this trope is that people forgive the awful behavior because of “a rough past” and in the case of the joker, Romanticize mental illness and abusive relationships.

@BBB888B8B8

3 жыл бұрын

And then start identifying with them.

@elizrebezilmadommdo1662

3 жыл бұрын

It becomes an even bigger problem when we carry this mindset into real life.

@SlapstickGenius23

3 жыл бұрын

I would say that most Stans (a cross between a stalker and a fan, which isn’t a good thing at all) are basically very messed up people. And the families who raised and still raise them are also highly screwed up.

@spacetacos7574

3 жыл бұрын

What people should take away from the joker is a tragic tale of what not to do Not damn doing it

@priscilaassis5704

3 жыл бұрын

Right! The Joker and Harley are toxic and abusive and people look up to that

“Every fairy tale needs a good old-fashioned villain. You need me, or you’re nothing. Because we’re just alike, you and I. Except you’re boring. You’re on the side of the angels.” Jim Moriarty, Sherlock

@trinaq

3 жыл бұрын

I totally agree! Much like Barney Stinson, I tend to root for the baddie, since they typically have much more sympathetic and tragic backstories than the heroes, or they're simply more entertaining and charismatic!

@konraddygudaj257

3 жыл бұрын

@@trinaq I agree

@rachaelknudsen8801

3 жыл бұрын

"I may be on the side of the angels. But never mistake me for one of them."-Sherlock Holmes, Sherlock

@JP-br4mx

3 жыл бұрын

deep

@sofiaoviedo9192

3 жыл бұрын

@@rachaelknudsen8801 gotta love Sherlock

Magneto takes the crown on being the sympathetic villain “I’ve been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again.”

@FabalociousDee

3 жыл бұрын

Michael Fassbender's Magneto at least. There's something deeply cathartic about the way he releases his rage as Magneto.

@tyrealmal2004

3 жыл бұрын

@@FabalociousDee I don't think there was a time since their inception that Magneto _wasn't_ a sympathetic villain. It's part of what made the X-men so fascinating to me as a kid; that Prof-X and Magneto had clear ideological differences, but _both wanted_ the kids in their care to be able to live in peace. Even before I understood all of the implications in his backstory, I could still see where someone could be coming from when they said "these people want to hurt us, let's take the fight to them first." After I understood what it _meant_ that the man was a holocaust survivor, that he turned to violence to try and prevent his people from becoming the victims of the same kind of extermination effort that he went through as a child gained some added _weight_ and made a great deal more _sense,_ but that backstory was there _long_ before Fassbender took on the role. Fassbender's an incredible actor, and he and McAvoy had great chemistry on screen, but he was also working with a great character to begin with.

@FabalociousDee

3 жыл бұрын

@@tyrealmal2004 I also think Magneto was a really well written character, but I didn't really connect with him until X Men: First Class fleshed him out. Or maybe it's because Fassbender's hot, IDK. LOL

@abraham2172

3 жыл бұрын

He was so great in that movie. I loved the scene at the beginning with him looking on a picture of Shaw playing with the coin.

@Seasonal-Shadow_4674

3 жыл бұрын

@Eric Myers I just reread God Loves New Mutants the other day. Is it normal for sympathetic villains to still be terrifying?

i feel like the cruella movie is gonna have joker vibes, in the sense that we kinda understand how she became a villain, but don't necessarily excuse any of her actions and if this is case i'm gonna love it

@DeathnoteBB

3 жыл бұрын

I don’t see what could make someone who wants a puppy coat sympathetic

@ham5097

3 жыл бұрын

@@DeathnoteBB exactly, I don't get what was Disney thinking

@MariaLuisa-le1rf

3 жыл бұрын

@@DeathnoteBB i don't think they are gonna make her a "sympathetic" villain (tbh i don't even think that's possible lol), i think it will just be like an origin story if that makes sense

@mccod035

3 жыл бұрын

she kills dogs like how is that ok

@j_usteen

3 жыл бұрын

I hope that's the movie we get. I'm really tired of the "let's sympathize with the villain now" movies.

What about the blank slate trope? Like someone who doesn't have much of a personality but still plays a main character (example: Bella Swan)

@dreamyanon5151

3 жыл бұрын

I have heard these characters are made so that audiences can envision themselves in the role easier?

@umidk2667

3 жыл бұрын

@Sydney Barrett don't let redditors here you, they will flip out.

@MalvinaDeClares

3 жыл бұрын

Yes! Love this idea! Everyone needs to like this so the take can see it!!!!

@divinej2148

3 жыл бұрын

They’re terrible, because then the movie lacks personality, which makes for a very stale experience. Imo anyway.

@diamantemrobinson

3 жыл бұрын

@@mette9279 woahhhhhh I liked Beck 😭

Pls make a video about childfree women and their portrayal in media, especially vs. mothers.

@simoneedwards7035

3 жыл бұрын

This

@jessicavictoriacarrillo7254

3 жыл бұрын

I wanna like so many times

@ravenwalter8727

3 жыл бұрын

YES 👍

@emilycox6560

3 жыл бұрын

This would be great

@econ2206

3 жыл бұрын

@@Chris-rg6nm childbirth can kill you. There are other ways to contribute to society.

Gone Girl really is The Takes favourite film lol(cant blame them for it, it does is great)

@afz5355

3 жыл бұрын

Istg I love watching that film especially Amy’s cool girl monologue

@chloelorrin212

3 жыл бұрын

@@afz5355 yeah me too

@georgeprchal3924

3 жыл бұрын

She murders Neil Patrick Harris yet I'm convinced she'd be Barney Stinson's favorite character.

@PrivateDncr86

3 жыл бұрын

They're showing clips from I Care A Lot as well

@KW-vy1rf

3 жыл бұрын

Lol, yes. They use that cool girl monologue in almost every trope video, ha.

I think Light Yagami from Death Note is a great example of this, I have never like him but I love the way his character is written, and I totally understand why there are people who root for him

@BBB888B8B8

3 жыл бұрын

OMG YASSS

@georgeprchal3924

3 жыл бұрын

Lelouch would totally kick his ass.

@Luanna801

3 жыл бұрын

Light is interesting because he isn't really given a lot of likable or sympathetic traits. He doesn't have a sympathetic backstory, he only very rarely shows flashes of genuinely caring about anyone, and although he claims to have noble intentions for what he's doing, (to me at least) it seems to be driven more by ego than genuine idealism. I'd put him in the same category as some of the characters they discuss towards the end of the video, like Patrick Bateman, who are villain protagonists but aren't really written to be likable.

@dtown_demon

3 жыл бұрын

I always rooted for L, but I still get where team Light came from

@rhondahoward8025

3 жыл бұрын

@@Luanna801 Light always came across as someone who was only "tame" before the Death Note because he didn't have the means to act out his violent impulses. Once he did, all bets were off. It's like the kid in school who seems mild-mannered but secretly has murderous fantasies, and when he gets the means to carry out those thoughts, people die.

I think the villain is having their moment in the sun because many of us are finally realising that nobody is the good guy, and that it was a lie. Or at least, I'd like to think that was the case. It's probably folk thinking the villain is cool or some crap.

@mc2383

3 жыл бұрын

The ultimate sympathetic villain - Donald Trump. He was able to control his narrative until he flew a wee bit too close to the sun. Then he completely revealed his evil side (Daenaerys style) with the January 6 insurrection.

@rsync9490

3 жыл бұрын

No its just that in real life, unscrupulous behavior is rewarded and honorable behavior is ignored. So people merely embrace that message in the media they enjoy.

@blackdragon6

3 жыл бұрын

Both can be true @FabalociousDee

@giftedboi

3 жыл бұрын

@@mc2383 watch the first few seasons of The Apprentice and see if you still hold that opinion. He's a vat of cottage cheese poured into a suit and nothing more.

@arrow3741

3 жыл бұрын

@@mc2383 How exactly is he considered the sympathetic villain? He was one of the first to demonize the Central Park 5, and tried to screw over people in Scotland to make a golf course, and scammed people with his fake University scam and so many other things. He was the villain from the start. If controlling the narrative means by making people forget details like these over the years before he ran in the election makes them somehow sympathetic, then you got more thinking to do.

To me, the Joker and Killmonger are so much more relatable in their villainy because it was a whole system that "made them this way", as opposed to just having been wronged by a callous ex or a mean parent. Systemic wrongs can sometimes turn a good man bad.

@sophiejones7727

3 жыл бұрын

Kinda? They have agency. The fact that they were mistreated doesn’t excuse their actions. In both cases, there were better ways for them to deal with the oppressive system. They are relatable: but they also weren’t “made that way” by the system. When you oppressed you always have two choices: 1) concentrate on destroying those who harmed you or 2) concentrate on preventing harm coming to others. Those two things sound the same, but they aren’t. The first is destructive, while the second is creative. Destructive acts, lead to a cycle of destruction: no matter whether the intentions of the original actor were good. Creative acts lead to a cycle of change for the better: again, even if the intention of the original actor was cynical. The fundamental problem with both Killmonger and the Joker is that they don’t try to create a better world. They both respond to oppression by trying to destroy those who harm them. They aren’t good people. Good people want to create something better. Even a cynical good person *wants* to create something better. They might not believe it is possible, but they still try. Ironically, Killmonger seems to realize the thing that the Joker doesn’t and vice versa. Killmonger realizes that he isn’t the only one suffering, while the Joker thinks the world is out to get *him* personally (rather than all poor/mentally ill people). Meanwhile the Joker seems to realize that people mistreat him because of how they’ve been taught while Killmonger seems to think it is because of innate qualities. Tbh now I want a movie where those two confront each other. That would be awesome!

@spacetacos7574

3 жыл бұрын

To me this also includes a third one Koba Mainly in the fact that he still tried to get people to see and stop what they’re doing to him and his people but since how humanity will only want to associate itself with things it likes or is similar to,they never will stop or most will even see For koba How do you get an entire other species of those who aren’t like you,hate you,have been above you and and been hurt by you for a millennia to see their own faults and crimes against you

@spacetacos7574

3 жыл бұрын

@@sophiejones7727 me too! They both have something to teach each other

@kenster8270

3 жыл бұрын

@Akshay 18 True true. A fictional character doesn't have to be a good person who makes good choices in order to be relatable. Whether or not someone is able to relate to a character may ultimately be a matter of lived experience and/or empathy and/or privilege (white, male, etc).

@libragoddess98287

3 жыл бұрын

Erik Magneto as well

The villain has literally become one of my favourite characters in media now, just unapologetically badass.

@trinaq

3 жыл бұрын

Precisely, Amy from "Gone Girl" was the first baddie I sympathised with, since despite her cruel actions and shameless manipulation, you could underwise WHY she was the way she was.

@Simas1234

3 жыл бұрын

Way to miss the whole point

@monabohamad2242

3 жыл бұрын

@@trinaq maybe cuz of something to do with her possibly being a narcissist/sociopath/psychopath

@JoostEurovisionFans

3 жыл бұрын

@kshamwhizzle Totally agree with you. A lot of people can't separate being badass with being bad. They believe being bad is raw and cool. Especially, youngsters are easy to fall for this. That is why movies like this are maybe causing more harm, than fun. I have seen multiple interview with people in Europe who said an American movie inspired them to do robberies and acts of crime. What do you make of that? Make bad guys look bad. Don't romantics them and make them look cool.

@MaiaPalazzo

3 жыл бұрын

This comment is perfect at 666 likes I'm not ruining it

Sweeney Todd would have been a good choice to put here as an example of the victim villain.

@jordanloux3883

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, but it's clear he's a monster even when fighting a worse monster. He's more about the dangers of revenge, not any examination of existing systems.

@princejohnneyfan

3 жыл бұрын

@@jordanloux3883 but the judge abused his power to send him to jail, sexually assault his wife and kidnapped his daughter. He could not have done this without using the system.

@DreamGyrl360

3 жыл бұрын

I agree.

@paradise2776

3 жыл бұрын

Yes!!!!

@kaz1819

3 жыл бұрын

@@princejohnneyfan They made that "justifiable" point in the video. Lots of in-depth villain stories will show traumatic or devastating things happening to them in their past but it doesn't excuse their actions. Sweeny Todd was a monster despite his sad past therefore we should not sympathize with him. Instead, it is so we better understand the character and why they did it - in this case, he did it because everything he loved was taken away from him and he felt no reason to suppress his pent-up anger. I believe that story had more than one villain as well. The judge, of course, sweeny, societal system, and arguably Mrs Lovet.

My issue is that sometimes people are just bad for the sake of being bad. Like Heath Ledgers Joker is perfect and Nolan seems to reject the necessity for an origin story. Joker gives multiple in the film, and none of them matter because what he does in the film his on purpose. Everyone doesn't need a tragic backstory and half of these villains who get it don't deserve it

As Harvey Dent aka Two-Face said, "You either die a hero, or live long enough to become the villain."

There's nothing wrong with a story of a villain against a hero but, in my opinion the best stories are the ones with villains having a bunch of hidden layers, relatable issues and personality/character traits that most viewers can identify with. And at the end of the day it doesn't matter how evil they are what evil deeds they commit, when villains have those relatable qualities and issues you'll always find a soft spot for them. Its basiclly like that iconic quote you've probably seen: "As kids we love the heroes, but as adults we understand the villains."

@depgabby

3 жыл бұрын

@Erwin Lii DEFINITELY antiheroes. Barely, even

@susiem.2068

3 жыл бұрын

@Erwin Lii The Joker as in the movie, or as a character in the DC universe ? 'Cause I didn't necessarily saw all of this in him. Just a sick man who was abused by his parents, his community and the entire system.

@knightofkorbin888

2 жыл бұрын

I think there is a dark underlying truth here. As kids, it seems many of you see yourselves as heroes, like Superman and Wonder Woman, but as you get older and the flaws, mistakes, and problems pile up you no longer see yourselves as on the same level of heroes. That's likely why, culturally, characters such as Batman, Wolverine, Hulk, Iron Man and Spider-Man became so popular. They are "human" characters. Cathartic/motivational heroes who lose, fail, and are still improving and growing. Aspirational heroes never spiritually fall. Motivational fall all the time, but they always get back up. Just like many of you. Then, somewhere along the way, antiheroes became more appealing. They sacrifice the high, idealistic moral standards of a hero, and give in to a more baseline, "realistic" morality and mindset, while still making much of the same traditional sacrifices of a hero. What made antiheroes who they are used to be that because they dropped the ideals of a hero, they could not reap the same rewards of a hero. Then the anti-heroes started getting all of the same rewards as an aspirational and motivational heroes, and villains became more appealing. Villains do not change their position. The world must change, the heroes must change, reality itself must change, but not them. That's the difference between a hero and a villain. A hero will let go/lose at any cost. A villain will hold on/win at any cost. To their beliefs, emotions, identity, past, purpose, family, world, or life. They often have a strength and perseverance to them that is inspirational. I've related to villains, I've been able to understand them, but I've never found them as appealing as a hero, so I'm an outsider on this topic. However, it looks to me as though people (writers, readers, and watchers alike) are demoralized to the point where they can connect better to villains that heroes, as villains are nearer on the moral ladder to them. Nearly everyone is above the villains on the ladder, but for some reason they are not looking above them at the antihero, the motivational hero, or aspirational hero as much as in the past. They are looking at the villains below. I don't know why, and I'm not going to pretend I do, but it honestly strikes me as wrong that so many people are focused on the people who are nearer to sawing down the ladder than they are climbing it. That and many of the aspirational and motivational heroes have been lowered down to meet us. Doesn't sit well with me that the heroes are written in a way where they are inspired by us, instead of us being inspired by them.

@Error_-ct2vp

Жыл бұрын

Dude you’re the reason why villains nowadays suck

I love villains, I don't empathize with them or anything, it's just that they always spice up the storyline. Like Scar, evil, as he is, was a great villain. I'm simply dying to watch the new Cruella movie!

@lordfreerealestate8302

3 жыл бұрын

Yep. A story's conflict is hinged on the quality of its villain.

@animalmania2381

3 жыл бұрын

Imagine if the newest lion kind was made to be from scar's POV. I might have actually gone and watched it rather than avoiding it because lots of people I knew said it ruined Lion King for them.

@amandak.5967

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, me too! The Cruella Deville movie trailer gives me Harley Quinn/Promising Young Women vibes! Not because of its message, but because of its visuals. I really stan vibrant, eye-catching settings and woman protagonists in cool, unique outfits :)

@hobblee1061

3 жыл бұрын

I agree! I don't normally empathize nor sympathize with villains but holy fuck they're amazing! They're such astonishing characters, and especially when they're well developed, they bring a lot of spice to the plate. Sometimes I find myself astounded more by villains' character rather than the goody protagonists and I just laugh at myself because I'll admit it feels wrong. But of course I always practice to separate the character from the person. Which is why I like them in the first place, the character. Still makes me laugh though 🤭🤭

@joliejarina1696

3 жыл бұрын

@@hobblee1061 same,alot of times I always like the villain than the protagonist/hero

*The Obsessed Fan Trope*

@Prettyfunnycoolnhot

3 жыл бұрын

They did with STAN

@AxxLAfriku

3 жыл бұрын

ORORORORO!!! I spend half of my day sleeping! ORORORO!!! Then I sometimes get up and tell you that I am a famous content creatorORORORORO!!! Please don't sleep while driving, dear rac

@mgdkns6678

3 жыл бұрын

Especially the Beyoncé ones lol. They are pathological.

@denny.moiras

3 жыл бұрын

The Simp - it’s a pretty good take

@sinnsage

3 жыл бұрын

i second this!

Thank you! I'm fed up with some people excusing horrible people because of the "bad past". There are even more people who had survived even worse things and have become even more compassionate than " normal people" because they know pain. And it is a choice. So, no excuses!

@lordfreerealestate8302

3 жыл бұрын

Yep! I felt this way about Bojack Horseman - it was apparent to me by the end of the series that he was the villain and a serial abuser. He caused one death and almost caused two others. He left behind a wake of damaged lives and traumatized people. Yet the fan community defends and identifies with him, claiming he is merely 'flawed' and 'human'. I think that some people are redeemable and can change. But abusers and the like shouldn't get a pass - this mindset is harmful to their victims. Let's not fetishize the idea of "forgiveness", either.

@kimberlysparrow1538

3 жыл бұрын

@@lordfreerealestate8302 I see what you mean but I think that we should forgive abusers too, without allowing them to come back in our lives. Forgiveness is simply to stop nourishing feelings of anger. Trying to understand someone's bad actions doesn't mean excusing them.

@monabohamad2242

3 жыл бұрын

@That Bitch I bet YOU call Aileen Wuornos a hero

@JDog2656

3 ай бұрын

@@kimberlysparrow1538 even then if they do come back for whatever reason, that should be a test for both of you. To see if you have both chosen to be better people. Don't have to be bffs, but certainly be able to shake their hand and say "I'm glad we both found our way"

The token trio trope The main character (usually a guy) The main characters best friend friend/sidekick (usually a guy and a minority who’s comic relief) The girl (usually the love interest of the main character)

@shayhill568

3 жыл бұрын

They done it already

@giulianoaaronfrancoynsfran4858

3 жыл бұрын

@@shayhill568 really?

@mariedit9935

3 жыл бұрын

It's everywhere

@ilovu4149

3 жыл бұрын

i hate that trope so much 💀💀

@JoostEurovisionFans

3 жыл бұрын

Why change a good thing.

The Asian women triple trope: Madame Butterfly (submissive to her -often white-lover), China Doll (oversexualized), Dragon Lady (dangerous, deadly) The Latin man trope: Either a hot lover, a dangerous bandit or both.

@SlapstickGenius23

3 жыл бұрын

The original Chinese Wuxia versions to two of them are: the Forbidden city fanservice doll/moll and the Forbidden city femme fatale.

@peradabanbaruindonesia1546

3 жыл бұрын

And the nerd one. The person who works hard but never seem happy till he kill herself or having an awful marriage.

@GenerationNextNextNext

2 жыл бұрын

I think they did the Lotus Flower trope for Asian women.

@bloodmongerzero4431

2 жыл бұрын

They did the butterfly and the dragon lady!

I love how often "Gone Girl" shows up in your videos. One of the definitive books of the 2010s.

I think my favourite villain is the one who is right but has gone too far. Korra did an amazing job with this, and most importantly, Korra learned from the philosophies of her antagonists and actually tried to implement them. Same goes for Killmonger. He wasn't wrong. And T'challa was able to grow as a hero because he listened to what was being said.

@elizrebezilmadommdo1662

3 жыл бұрын

I was just thinking about Korra too when I watched this. Amon from the first season and The Red Lotus from the third season are great examples.

@Strawb_Goblin

3 жыл бұрын

notice how in lok the "leftist " antagonists like zahir and iman were killed but colonizers like kuvira are redeemed? :/

@monabohamad2242

3 жыл бұрын

@@Strawb_Goblin wasn't zahir simply imprisoned? like I don't remember him being killed at any point?

@tiarezavaleta8850

3 жыл бұрын

@@monabohamad2242 no, he was not. M R needs to rewatch TLOK.

@monabohamad2242

3 жыл бұрын

@@tiarezavaleta8850 so does anyone even know what the heck does "leftist" even mean?

That's why I think Rubí and Teresa were ahead of their time

@beetlejuicebeetlejuice8227

3 жыл бұрын

Yayy a telenovela fellow here

@yuri2604

3 жыл бұрын

Rubí is I*C*O*N*I*C

@cuentaline3002

3 жыл бұрын

TERESA 💖💖💖

@ivadervishi

3 жыл бұрын

Lmao but rubi was pure evil, i dont think anybody sympathised with her, but teresa actually had some sympathetic moments and felt more like a human i think (i dont remember them well tho) Anyways i love teresa and that intro song lives on my mind rent free

@rafael8892

3 жыл бұрын

Oh my 😂 I loved them

You know what happened with these stories about redempt villians? Zuko Zuko happended They wanted to imitate this amazing character and then confusing villians came along

@sia6045

3 жыл бұрын

Huh? Y’know this thing has been tried before Zuko even existed right?

@zephyrinekyrra5875

3 жыл бұрын

Azula too though. She was technically raised by her father Ozai. Ursa was busy caring for Zuko. Zuko had Ursa and Iroh and a lot of chances to guide him. Azula was raised by her father who wants her as his weapon and teached her how to be feared without having feelings. Azula was never given a chance, she could've gotten a redemption arc like Zuko too if she had a chance...

@flawedsanity

3 жыл бұрын

@@zephyrinekyrra5875 Exactly. Azula never was given any opportunities to change, and I think that's really important to highlight.

@swastikasinghchaudhary266

3 жыл бұрын

Its because zuko never truly was villain he was a victim of abuse , who really wanted a place to belong to . thats exactly why his redemption arc is *chefs kiss*.

@joliejarina1696

3 жыл бұрын

Not really but sure if you think it is

I sympathize with certain villains but I never try to excuse their actions, life is full of choices and their choices hurt others as well as hurting themselves, this is why heroes exist, to try and remind the villain that good exists It’s up to the villain to want a different path or not

@danninmatthews5640

2 жыл бұрын

For example 1931 Frankenstein and 1976 Carrie. Many people sympathize yet don't condone.

"Why The Bad Guy Is Taking Over" Because Hollywood doesn't have new ideas anymore, when it comes to mainstream blockbuster movies, so they have to develop new movies around side characters and (former) antagonists.

@dreamyanon5151

3 жыл бұрын

This seems to be the real reason, lol it doesn't seem that deep to me.

@maddieb.8514

3 жыл бұрын

Lol "Because Hollywood doesn't have new ideas anymore, it came up with this new idea of the bad guy taking over."

@dreamyanon5151

3 жыл бұрын

Plus people are getting tired of seeing the same stories and protagonists. Instead of trying to move forward, Hollywood is making desperate attempts to clutch onto what formulas work. Now, as people are getting more "woke", we are seeing more nuance being explored in the polarity of good and bad.

@zitronentee

3 жыл бұрын

The Grinch? A Christmas Carol?

@Nick_CF

3 жыл бұрын

Hollywood is just engineering a new formula to get people to sympathize with terrible people...like I dont know, the people involved in making these movies. Its not deep its cynical.

Maleficent is one of my favourite films and Jolie herself said that it’s about “abuse, and how the abused then have a choice of abusing others or overcoming and remaining loving, open people”

@excusezmoi9823

3 жыл бұрын

I don't know in the pursuit of making her more sympathetic they took away from what made her such a badass villain in the first place.

if you watched Nightcrawler and you sympathized with the protagonist, congratulations, you're a psychopath.

@GhostRider-uk3xv

3 жыл бұрын

Same is with I Care a Lot. What a awfull person.

@soridosuneku

3 жыл бұрын

I thought his performance was good, but it's probably not something to go around saying. I feel like he didn't get any nominations precisely because of the character

@robertsturdevant6056

3 жыл бұрын

I think many people's sympathy for the character stemmed from the fact that he was just trying to achieve the American Dream by doing something he was good at. Let's not forget that he would not do the things he did if it wasn't for society's huge demand for sensationalist and graphic news.

@alexman378

3 жыл бұрын

Nobody really sympathizes and you’re not meant to, but you are meant to empathize with him. There’s a video called “empathy for the anti hero” and it showcases exactly how that happens.

@GhostRider-uk3xv

3 жыл бұрын

@@alexman378 That's true, but for some anti-hero's you don't know their back story. Then it is harder to empathizes with them.

This is why I will always make a case for pure evil villains, if written poorly, sympathetic villains can let people make excuses for terrible actions. If we let bad people make excuses, then they never learn anything.

@giulianoaaronfrancoynsfran4858

3 жыл бұрын

Yes making a villain human is not the same thing as justify their actions

@realSimoneCherie

3 жыл бұрын

Our society has a much stronger track record of permanently disregarding people and ignoring real mental health issues when people do something wrong, than extending too much grace and understanding to those people.

@Luanna801

3 жыл бұрын

But in real life, bad people are rarely pure evil. If we always paint fictional villains as being two-dimensionally evil with no complexity or sympathetic qualities, we actually make people *less* likely to recognize real evil when they see it in the world and it doesn't look like a Disney villain.

@randeknight

3 жыл бұрын

I don't see that at all. Understanding the reasons doesn't mean letting them off with excuses, but it does help us ensure that we fix the root problem so the NEXT villain doesn't rise up.

People who are interested by the topic of this video should try watching the Korean drama Beyond Evil. It’s a show that constantly makes you wonder who is the true villain and if the perceived villain’s actions are justified. It really is an interesting take on the sympathetic villain trope.

@SlapstickGenius23

3 жыл бұрын

Ooh, I am really fascinated. Am I thinking that Beyond Evil has complete monsters?

@cat-sd5cr

3 жыл бұрын

@@SlapstickGenius23 Yeah I think I’d definitely say that there are characters who have no redeeming qualities and are monsters.

This trope to me just signals the rise of narcissism. Our society idolizes narcissists but at the same time we can't deny that they're terrible for us. I think these stories give us a way to integrate this personality type into the whole. Because we reward narcissists (often with love or money) we are trending to world with more narcissists but still a 'hero' is someone who succeeds without following this path.

@gbdeck200

3 жыл бұрын

This Bad writers with low standards excusing their faults and can't see the age old virtues of good heroes as good without saying their boring cause they don't look at good examples or care to realise their wrong

@Seasonal-Shadow_4674

3 жыл бұрын

@@gbdeck200 I also blame audiences, critics, and fans in general for their unreasonable demands and expectations, and narrow-minded viewpoints and contradictions and hypocrisy as well as confirmation bias

@elijahshewell1176

16 күн бұрын

That's actually so accurate. We have to try and make the villan more heroic or antiheroic so as affirm our selfish ways of seeing the world with us as the main protagonist. We see that characters like homelander have some deep running similarities to ourselves and we don't want to acknowledge that we have issues.

There’s a difference between a well-written villain and a sympathetic villain. Thanos is a well-written villain because even through his cruelness, his actions are well understandable from his eyes. Sympathetic villains are just the writers trying to justify evil actions - and comes off really dangerous at times (ie. Joe’s You or Bryce’s redemption arc on 13rw). There’s a need to explain villainous actions but absolutely no reason to justify it.

@timhaldane7588

3 жыл бұрын

Totally agree. Thanos was scary because he was completely convinced he was right, powerful and stubborn enough that nobody could convince him he was wrong, and manipulative and dangerous enough to amass followers who either thoroughly believed him or saw it as prudent to be on his side rather than stand against him. His condescending interactions with Gamora tell you everything you need to know about how he sees himself versus everyone who disagrees with him. Thanos shouldn't be sympathetic. He should be horrific and maddening.

@excusezmoi9823

3 жыл бұрын

@@timhaldane7588 I disagree. Throughout infinity war Thanos is written with the purpose of being sympathetic, as the story takes the time to actually explain why he does the things he does and leads credence to his argument. But by no means does the story say he is in the right, however the story does give him a point and its how far he takes that point that makes him a villain. I just described infinity war Thanos as he is written as the tragic hero, endgame Thanos is written as a straight up villain without the sympathetic motivation.

@jeremyanderson6789

2 жыл бұрын

He is NOT tragic hero. He more like a supervillain he cross the line and murder trillions.

@JDog2656

3 ай бұрын

@@excusezmoi9823 Accept I think Endgame Thanos covers the half that we don't see in IW. The one who sits on the throne and slaughters innocents without mercy. Who in reality just wants worship.

@elijahshewell1176

16 күн бұрын

I feel like media literacy has taken a plummet in the past couple years. Ppl just want one narrow viewpoint through which to analyze stories. They think there's some universal formula by which all good villans are made. What matters most is that the villan is intriguing. Not that they are well intentioned or have worldly ambitions, but that they pose an interesting question or idea to the audience/reader.

This is like "revenge movies" common in South Korean cinema... people root for the villain protagonist who's often just a relatable flawed person

On first glance, Cass from "promising young woman" is just your typical phsycotic femme fatal villain, but as the film goes on it becomes indisputable that she's absolutely the hero of her story, she's just taking justice in a negative way EDIT: jesus christ why is everyone just trashing her suddenly I love the movie and the character SO SUE ME

@user-pc2df1np5j

3 жыл бұрын

Say what you want,but she's no hero. She could've been brilliant like Amy from Gone Girl but instead she acted like a little girl going around telling people "you're not a nice person".not to mention her ultimate revenge of wanting to write nina's name on the rapist has got to be one of the stupidest ways for a character to die,ever.

@ElleGur

3 жыл бұрын

@@user-pc2df1np5j i thought it was poetic.

@louiserottweiler5599

3 жыл бұрын

I was thinking of her too, I guess I’d label her as an anti-hero? Or maybe a tragic one

@ElleGur

3 жыл бұрын

@@louiserottweiler5599 yes she was a tragic hero (I don't know why, I never even thought of her as a villain, except maybe in the beginning)

@ElleGur

3 жыл бұрын

@Erwin Lii exactly, which is why a lot of people didn't like her- she wasn't COOL enough or STRONG- because those are aspects that most of society associate with masculinity. Cass is deeply rooted in her feminity, and it's what makes her stronger.

I Care A Lot wasn't sending a confusing message, it was a critique of capitalism particularly Girl Boss feminist capitalism which posits that the world just needs more female CEOs, when in actuality they become sub-oppressors perpetuating the same system of exploitation.

@samfilmkid

3 жыл бұрын

I agree but I do think they made a point on the homophobia accusations. Still, it was nice to see one of these “sympathetic” villains get the comeuppance they deserve. We had seen enough Jordan Belforts get away with being greedy monsters, it was time for some payback!

@annickroussemrou1064

3 жыл бұрын

The only less disliked in i care a lot was just the granny and she was just stuck in a nurse home.

One of the best sympathetic villains is Morgana from the show BBC Merlin. In just 5 seasons they took her from someone you love into someone you sympathize with but you know she's gone too far with her actions.

You can't make a "The take" video without Gone Girl. Prove me wrong

I don't know why Disney wants us to empathize with a puppy killer. Hopefully they don't justify her behavior, but just show us how she ended up that way

@mccod035

3 жыл бұрын

agreed lol

@lilil9752

3 жыл бұрын

Cruella has the potential to be the best DR with risking with an actual villian protagonist BUT it can end up being one of the worst if all the trailers are misleading and turns out Cruella is inocent and the real villian is the other Emma

@muslimamir4783

3 жыл бұрын

people kill baby cows and pigs what’s the difference

@zero1188

3 жыл бұрын

Just because you killed puppies dont make you a bad person though

@ShawnRavenfire

3 жыл бұрын

"Once Upon a Time" already did it better, luring the Author in with a victim story about how her mother kept her locked up, but then the reveal that she locked her up because she knew she was a homicidal psychopath.

Personally I absolutely hate the “sympathetic and noble villain” it’s just too pathetic for me. I don’t want a villain who is lashing out at the world because he was wronged or because they think they’re doing right. I love a pure evil villain who commits evil because they want something wether be it money or power.

@anatoldenevers237

2 жыл бұрын

Personally I can enjoy both types, as long as it’s done well

Daenerys was done so dirty, I don’t think she should have been mentioned 😤

@jakie4444

3 жыл бұрын

the thing is the Daenerys going mad could of been done better if she offed people that would be more morally ambius to the ok lady why the fuck would you before her rampage on kings landing

@cockycookie1

2 жыл бұрын

@@jakie4444 yeah she should've gotten more build-up. Can't go from morally clean saviour of the oppressed to evil dictator just because she heard bells in the distance. And even if we're supposed to believe she's evil, Dany still wouldn't pass up a chance to get more common people that love her. Would've made more sense if she went and burned down the guard towers or something instead of randomly blazing into a crowd of civilians.

Marla of 'I Care A Lot' is NOT sympathetic. To know her is to hate her. Every comment from every viewer and reviewer basically expressed the same sentiments, that they watched the whole film rooting for her to be killed and sided with the antagonist, Peter Dinklage's Roman, above the supposed protagonist, for which no one expressed any warmth or even the begrudging admiration we're intended to feel. That character inspires universal, visceral hatred. Marla isn't sympathetic, she's just a villain. It was clear that Marla had suffered sometime in her background, but never enlightened us as to what had made her such a ruthless, uncaring and amoral person, but there actually isn't anything that could have possibly made me empathize with her in the context of her current actions. I don't care if she was raped, if she had an abusive parent or a nasty husband or used to be homeless. Because while we might empathize with the desire to act out in violence, destroy something or get revenge when we've been hurt, few people can relate to a drive to exploit helpless and innocent people and destroy lives to get rich. Hardly anyone here's the line "I want to use money like a bludgeon" and say, yeah, I feel you, sister.

@samfilmkid

3 жыл бұрын

I agree except on the rooting for Dinklage part. He was a bad guy too and the fact that he decided to team up with her at the end was Brilliant. I’m surprised he didn’t ask her to marry him too!

@jakie4444

3 жыл бұрын

@@samfilmkid yeah the approch should of been fuck it after the first failure and just straight up the ending dude you run the largest mob how are your goons that incompatant then

@maipe6917

3 жыл бұрын

I’ve never wanted to see a “protagonist” fail more than I did with Marla. “Jennifer” is the character I found myself rooting for, and who I wish did more in the movie. After all of the people who Marla victimized it felt good to see “Jennifer” fight back for as long as she did. Framing the rest of the movie around Marla and Roman really was a let down for me. The movie treats Marla’s victims as secondary by making her adversary in the movie and the character who delivers her comeuppance both “loved ones” of her victims. Having Jennifer, an actual victim, be the one to turn the tables on her and make her suffer would have been so much more satisfying.

@moonlily1

3 жыл бұрын

@@maipe6917 I believe I wrote that exact same sentence elsewhere in a review, that I never wanted to see a protagonist fail more than Marla.

@maipe6917

3 жыл бұрын

@@moonlily1 😂. I’d love to read that review, because by the end of the film I felt completely let down. Marla’s comeuppance really came because of Mr. Feldstrom’s frustration and anger. It would have been so much more rewarding to have seen it come more directly from one of her targets. Even the things Roman put her through weren’t satisfying because they just made her more determined.

Better than flawless Mary Sue who just cries. "Once upon a time, the good guys lived their perfect lives without any problem." Who'd watch it ? Not me!

There is an important distinction between being a sympathetic villain and being a hero or being right though, and I think that’s been lost on a lot of audiences. A villain can be tragic, can have a good point, can have understandable motives, but that doesn’t make them not a villain-villainy is defined by a person’s actions, not their background. When someone-real life or fictional-starts intentionally hurting people, regardless of their reasons for doing so, they are a villain. Audiences need to reclaim the ability to appreciate a reasonable motive and still recognize unreasonable actions-and vice versa-, as they are not mutually exclusive.

Shadow & Bone is coming on Netflix next week so your timing is perfect

@thandondlovu5392

3 жыл бұрын

The Darkling especially portrayed by Ben Barnes is one of my more favourite villains.

@okay.3170

3 жыл бұрын

@@thandondlovu5392 Makes sense! And we have Kaz for morally grey moments

Godfather started with nothing and ended having everything. Corleone started with everything (decorated soldier, family, rich) and ended with him having nothing, betrayed, alone.

My favorite villains are Joker and Magneto. I can see why Magneto wanted to destroy humans after what humans put him through. Also I liked Killmonger who was really relatable as a Black American. The Wakandans did watch the rest of the world struggle and did nothing about it.

@trinaq

3 жыл бұрын

Precisely my thoughts. Sometimes it's easier to root for the Villain if they have a sympathetic reason for their otherwise deplorable actions.

@lemonringo566

3 жыл бұрын

My favourite are the ones who don't even realize that they're the villains. There's no need to understand or feel sympathetic for them, because they have their own goals/ambitions and they feel justified by it. Those types are always the most fun to watch.

@pyrokatarina

3 жыл бұрын

@@lemonringo566 you just described thanos. He never saw his goals as bad. Rather he finds his actions as "saving life" from suffering

@chrystianaw8256

3 жыл бұрын

How the hell was Kill monger relatable? Did you not see how he treated african women?

I find that when I watch films where the villain is more complex, I find that it makes the heroes more complex and ultimately, in the story, more interesting

Knowing this kind of person in real life makes you despise them even in movies. Being a victim doesn't excuse making victims, never. We shouldn't glorify these personalities, even in fiction. Maybe if I didn't find vilains so cool when I was younger, I wouldn't have fallen for one so easily.

@miramorrigan5464

3 жыл бұрын

Period

@NS-et5wh

3 жыл бұрын

It also seems like media is villainizing victims as an easy plot device, when in reality victims are _less_ likely to hurt others, and should get full sympathy without the added paranoia that they might victimize others because of what they've been through. It's false to assume that everyone who hurts others must do it because they themselves were hurt. Yes that happens, but it is far more likely that they hurt others because of privilege, power and ignorance. This trend in media sometimes makes us try to find the good in abusers which thereby gives them more power to hurt and the victims less power to speak out.

@NS-et5wh

3 жыл бұрын

@Erwin Lii The video by Cheyenne is partly what made me realize this! She expesses this really well. I don't know the scene you're talking about in the first part of your comment though

@sanrei5911

3 жыл бұрын

@@NS-et5wh I couldn't agree more.

@Strawb_Goblin

3 жыл бұрын

I dont think the world is cleanly divided between good and bad, victim and perpetrator, I think its important to tell stories that reflect that complexity

I like this „understanding the villain“ . We know they are doing wrong but can understand and sometimes even forgive what they are doing. We all do horrible things in our lifetime everything else is unrealistic and we have to understand why we sometimes do horrible stuff and finally forgive ourselves.

@Strawb_Goblin

3 жыл бұрын

I agree. evil is just a concept. we all do harm and we all change and relating to anothers humanity is not a bad thing inherently as long as we do not justify the harm

This made me want to rewatch Death Note. Idk if Light counts as a sympathetic villian but i remember finding the show very interesting because the villian was the protagonist.

@agarsrish

3 жыл бұрын

Light is literally the definition of a sympathic villian, lol. If not that, then a problematic fave for sure :)

@helenahell9022

3 жыл бұрын

I never see Light as sympathetic. He is good villain and i understand his actions but i still didn't liked him. I always prefer L.

@nopenvm

3 жыл бұрын

i actually think light falls more under the ‘likeable sociopath’ trope

@BBB888B8B8

3 жыл бұрын

Death note does it better than anyone

@georgeprchal3924

3 жыл бұрын

You can like him but there's very little sympathetic about him.

Oh my God, I love the way in which you keep putting the Gone Girl monologue in each and everyone of your videos. You have got to spread the word, I guess.

@elizrebezilmadommdo1662

3 жыл бұрын

I haven't even seen the movie yet, and I think I probably know it by heart thanks to this channel. 😂

Classics like The Godfather and Taxi Driver are examples so good, movies have been trying to replicate them ever since. Modern television is doing great at exploring villain point of views (The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, currently) but modern films are more frustrating, and definitely fall into the muddy thematic traps a lot more, by over reaching with the sympathy. I'm not excited about what Disney is doing with Cruella DeVille. And Harley Quinn is a perfect example of villain who isn't even bad anymore- never doing anything outwardly evil in Birds of Prey, even going so far as to care for an orphaned child. Ridiculous. The Sympathetic Villain at this rate is becoming its own cliche.

@Bob-qq7bt

2 жыл бұрын

The Falcon and Winter solder fails at it

I actually don’t like the victim-villain trope. I feel it dries the character out. I prefer a more flamboyant no-holds-bar villain whom we get behind despite their wrongdoings. On a three scaled spectrum from my most to least preferred would be Frank Underwood, Walter White, Eric Kilmonger. Ultimately, I feel the bad guy story is meant to be a fun; once you go into giving reasons for why a bad guy is they way they are, you strip them of all the charisma of being a bad guy in the first place. I feel like the only thing in these instances that works is giving the villain added motivation by undercutting the protagonist, bc then they become noble *in a sense* or at least reasonable, which is exciting because a thinking villain is a more dangerous one.

So an anti-hero is specifically someone who overall fits the traditional hero mold but has villainous tendencies, and an anti-villain is the opposite? Honestly, I've always found those terms to be pretty nebulous, but this does help clarify them a little.

@brxzbze

3 жыл бұрын

Types of antiheroes: somebody who has heroic goals but goes about them with unscrupulous means but not enough to cross the moral event horizon and generally does more good than harm (a lot of protagonists honestly -- Batman, Jason Todd etc), or a protagonist who is weak- willed and/or insecure and lacks typical heroic qualities (think Shinji in Evangelion or Winston Smith in 1984). Anti villain types: well intentioned extremist who pursues noble goals single- mindedly and commits immoral and villainous acts to achieve them (think Ozymandias in the Watchmen comics and Javert from Les Miserables), the sympathetic 'woobie' villain who acts the way they do because of circumstances out of their control but still commits villainous actions (Frankenstein's monster, Sweeney Todd from the musical etc.) and 'villains' who are only opposing the protagonists' goals and have no intention of committing malevolent deeds. Some villains are combinations of these types like Magneto and Killmonger. Hope this helps!

@syaramogot3419

3 жыл бұрын

Di

The Boys has villain antagonists that are seen as charming to a lot of people in that universe, but the viewers are supposed to see past that facade. The protagonists aren't exactly saints themselves, either.

No mention of villanelle? She's the best villain imo

@gagamonster1049

3 жыл бұрын

They had only a clip of her 😔

I honestly love the sympathetic villain. None of us are perfectly good or evil. We’re all shades of gray. I find the sympathetic villain to be much more realistic and interesting

@ertfgghhhh

3 жыл бұрын

No. Some are a lighter black or a darker white. Everybody is stained but it is not that simple

@jamieyoung9206

3 жыл бұрын

@@ertfgghhhh wtf does that mean. These are concepts made up in the mind. Why are you using colors and shades to represent ideas such as good and evil

@ertfgghhhh

3 жыл бұрын

@@jamieyoung9206 grow up and watch ur manners. Do not talk to me that way.... The original commenter mentioned colors, that is why the metaphor is used. Good evening.....

@jamieyoung9206

3 жыл бұрын

@@ertfgghhhh idgaf how I talk to you. All they mentioned was “shades of grey” which btw is a way of expression. But you were dumb enough to carry on with it, in the dumbest way possible too.

@hoonshiming99

3 жыл бұрын

Honestly not everyone is shades of gray. Some are just born evil. Ever heard of psychopaths? These people are born without any sense of empathy are willing to hurt and manipulate others to achieve their goals with no remorse.

Great analysis! I think ‘sympathetic villain’ or the ‘bad guy taking over’ is us evolving as a society in trying to understand deeper and more complex characters, it’s moving away from ‘good and bad’ way of looking at things and exploring the huge grey area. It’s a good sign :) And I love when it’s used as a way to criticise the society in general, hopefully it’ll make us think about it more.

@JDog2656

Жыл бұрын

But that can also cause problems because if we can’t clearly distinguish right from wrong, then it’s all doomed to self-destruction. Justifying one terrible act after another.

Great video! I can see the point of "don't lose the message" with the Ratchet series that apparently ignored the original purpose of the character; Nurse Ratchet is supposed to show the horrifying banality of evil. Making her sympathetic completely looses that.

@bonemeringue9464

3 жыл бұрын

God that show sucked ass. Shock value gore, outlandish soap opera plotlines and stylish dresses masking a complete lack of any substance in story or character

@cockycookie1

2 жыл бұрын

Ratchet as in "one flew over the cuckoo's nest"?

A simplistic way I've long looked at good Villian protagonists in media is the creator usually uses 1 of the 3 "big E's" (empathy, envy, and enemy) to get us to root for them. Either by making them a Victim, dealing with relatable hardships and fears for empathy(Ex:Joker). Giving them some desirable traits, possessions, standing, etc. for envy(ex:Wolf of Wll St.), and/or give them an enemy who is worse than them, or at least appears that way to really give us a strong reason to root for their success (Breaking Bad). And when you use all 3 of the techniques, such as in, The Godfather, Peaky Blinders, or Breaking Bad, the audience seems to almost always forgive and even occasionally condone and support the flawed characters fully regardless of any moral or social transgressions.

I wonder if this normalizes the terrible things the super-rich do, to be so rich, and we start to think being a psychopath is a road to success. Never mind the costs to others. And now we have to feel for them too, poor wounded souls. No?

I was at a writing workshop and our speaker said something poignant: "There is no such thing as heroes and villains. Because the villain is a hero within their own story."

I love how we’re seeing films and shows with this trope more and more because it really is life. No one is 100% good or 100% bad.

My favorite sympathetic villain protagonist is Lelouch Vi Brittania from Code Geass.

@georgeprchal3924

3 жыл бұрын

Until you watch Code Meant, then it gets worse...or better.

@georgeprchal3924

3 жыл бұрын

@Blood in the Water he literally murdered both his sisters, brothers, father, and mother, as well as many others. But Nina was the real bad guy.

"You either die a hero, or live long enough to become the villain". This quote always stuck with me. Not that I sympathize with the villains or something, but everyone's got a reason for being the way they are, especially in this fucked up society you can't blame people for going down the wrong way.

Dan and Dave are the real villains of game of thrones.

I am literally in the middle of writing a script for my uni assignment that is centred around a Sympathetic Villain and inspired by the Joker but I was struggling yesterday and today I woke up to this is my feed. THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! OMG This has helped me so much!!!

i think we like the villain bc we understand more where they’re coming from, we see the pain that they’re gone through

If film is so effective that people can’t tell the difference between an attractive actor, and an evil action... we’re idiots. I’m OK with sympathetic villains because our society has a much stronger track record of ignoring mental health issues and permanently disregarding people who make mistakes, than extending too much grace and understanding to those people.

@alexman378

3 жыл бұрын

That’s always been the case, Ted Bundy almost got away with the shit he did because he was attractive and charming, and people kept saying “I just can’t see him doing these things”.

@cockycookie1

2 жыл бұрын

@@alexman378 not to mention his weird ass fanclub 🤢

This is perhaps my least favorite trope in modern media. It's not that this trope can't be executed well (it totally can be), but it's become an arbitrary signifier of "complexity" and grey morality. Just because a villain is sympathetic or relatable doesn't necessarily mean they're a well-developed or engaging character. This trend has very much resulted in a lack of chilling and intimidating villains. I'm convinced that a big reason we're seeing this is that people really hold being meta and ultra self-aware of tropes in high esteem, and I think it's to the detriment of our entertainment. But even if you feel differently (and that's totally cool), the modern media landscape has become frustratingly bland and homogenous.

cruella skins dogs because she wants her coat to be fashionable not very sympathetic there

@Tania-ex6ve

3 жыл бұрын

And millions kill many other animals just to eat them as well. If they can be sympathised why not her

@muslimamir4783

3 жыл бұрын

@@Tania-ex6ve not only that but they’re encouraged and getting paid for it too. they torture the animals on those farms, the meat and dairy industry is cruel. so if most of us don’t care enough about that what’s so bad about what she’s doing

@rosegirl3220

3 жыл бұрын

You should watch this musical twisted by starkid specifically the song twisted. It's trying to make all the disney villains sound sympathetic, Cruella's part is hilarious

@zero1188

3 жыл бұрын

That dont make her a bad person though

@TheOsis181

3 жыл бұрын

@@Tania-ex6ve That's a false equivalence

Sympathetic Villains is like Hollywood being a Defense Attorney for all their villains in their stories. Also, Hollywood seems to have run out of good stories, so now they are showing the stories of the villains. And yes many villains are victims of trauma and abuse, and becoming villains is them lashing out at the world for what they have been through.

Killmonger, one scar on the skin for each victim, kills his own girlfriend to get what he wants. Internet: omg he is a anti-villain

“Woe to the one who says that good is bad and bad is good.” -Isaiah, chapter 5 verse 20. It’s not a crime to understand why people do bad things, but it is a crime to excuse them for it. Especially when they are still an unrepentant threat to humanity.

One of your best vids imo, amazing work :)

I personally appreciate the messy heroes and stories even if it disrupts the themes. There’s space for everything. I LOVE THIS CHANNEL

My favourite channel 😍😍 Could you make an analysis about Community?

These kind of movies invite the audience to empathise with characters that in real life would be incapable of empathising back to us.

Have you done the "fun pure evil villain" troupe yet? The in control, charismatic bad guy who takes delicious glee in being so cruel and has no visible explanation for why they don't care about the suffering of others. Ramsay Bolton specifically from the show, The joker from BMTAS, nearly every Disney animated villain pre 2013. (And before you @ me with books, comics, etc about how they do actually have sympathetic backstories, I'm trying to specify which version of the characters I'm talking about.)

Thank you so much for all your amazing videos! I was wondering why you haven't talked about Damages' Patty Hewes...

Marla Grayson is NOT a sympathetic villain in the slightest! She’s a classic example of a villain protagonist, like Alexander Delarge from A Clockwork Orange, or Patrick Bateman from American Psycho. She’s simply too cruel and depraved for the audience to feel for her, or want to see her win.

"Make them an actual villain" I think that's the main reason why Maleficent didn't work in my opinion. Sure, she's got a tragic backstory, but she's no real villain. She doesn't end up doing evil things by the end... she doesn't even turn into a dragon! By making her sympathetic they ended up defanging the character. I guess making a story about a straight-up villain is a difficult task for Disney. I'm really interested in what they will do with Cruella. But if they go for the Maleficent route, they could easily botch that film. Please take some risks this time!

Really good one! I've been wondering what started the trend. My take has been it started either to show people that every idea has an extreme and that polarity could just as easily be as bad as it is good, that there are at least 3 sides to every story or idea, or making being good or bad is the simple and complex matter of choice.

it's really just a trend, movies reflect what is going on in society

I think something major that was missed is the fact that these stories are told the way they are because no one believes a villain for villain's sake anymore. Just as we've rejected straight out optimism and naivete as something out of the 50's, we have also come to disbelieve notions of people simply "born" evil. Our society itself in recent years has been asking people not to believe stereotypes, but to dig deeper. We are looking for that deeper. While I hope that one looks at these stories as a tale of the need to intervene early (when you see someone abusing a child, report it), by the same token, it also gives us a *reason* for why people can be truly evil. We want to understand why someone can walk into a mall and shoot 20 people - and "they're evil" isn't enough anymore. Something made them tick and boom - though murder is never a valid response. I think these are stories that fill the needs of a world that has evolved beyond simply accepting the surface view of a situation OR person.

@elijahshewell1176

16 күн бұрын

While this is all a noble pursuit, it runs the risk of becoming stale and closer to autobiographical rather than artistic. Art isn't just supposed to be as realistic as possible, but to present something interesting to its audience. Sometimes that may call for a sympathetic villan, but other times it may call for a selfish villan or a villan who is obsessed with an ideal that is too disconnected from their physical reality. Literature and storytelling is art, not a physics equation in which to plug in variables and compute.

I think Joshua "J" Cody, the protagonist of Animal Kingdom also counts as a sympathetic villain, due to how he was left to starve with his drug addict mom, while his grandmother and uncles were living the good life miles away in a nice house, which caused him to join the family in their criminal activities while planning to take them down.

I was just thinking yesterday I wanted to see a video like this from you guys.

19:39 and on is pure gold, sympathizing with these villain says more about the system emdedded in us.

Well sometimes the villian is more fun and interesting to watch. Especially when they eventually lose.

love this videos! thanks for them, they are very informative. they even work for my life, i can interpretate things with more knowledge

@trinaq

3 жыл бұрын

I totally concur! I almost always end up agreeing with their arguments by the end of the video, undoubtedly one of my favourite channels ever!

Fascinating! Love this channel

Please do some more videos just talking about the meaning of movies. Your videos about American Psycho, The Lion King, and Titanic were soooo amazing at explaining things I didn't get. It seems like you guys just moved into social commentary more, but what about the meaning of films? You're SO good at those!

Id love to see a video on The Trickster trope.

I actually loved "I care a lot" because it literally had no 'good guys' and I loved that (spoilers) she dies at the end because I actually neither cheered nor cried at her death. It was powerful because even though it was killing a gay character, in my opinion, it wasn't a case of "bury your gays" because she didn't die because she was gay but because she was just a really shitty human being and I loved that! I loved hating her and everyone else in the movie which then made me love the movie as a whole

One thing people miss about Black Panther. T'Challa is the protagonist, but he does not start out as a hero. He is forced to become one after confronting Killmonger's worldview, and only until he has understood his criticism and philosophy (simbolized by allying with the Jabari, exemplified when he confronts T'Chaka), only then is he able to defeat him.

Thankyou!!! For bringing up Judas and the Messiah. I have been actively looking for critiques and video essays involving this film. I truly loved it and thought there was so much to talk about, i was growing frustrated about the lack of content about it, despite it being good enough to be nominated for Oscars.

I actually liked "I care alot" while it was well over exaggerated those types of ppl exist in business . That type of business is real

@VictoriaClerici

3 жыл бұрын

and also, I think the "feminism" they mention was actually just the movie satirizing white feminism and this idea that women becoming girl-bosses and exploiting other people is empowerment (like the "More female drone pilots!" meme lol)

@gabrielleporter553

3 жыл бұрын

@@VictoriaClerici i actually like that take, i remember watching the movie with my mom and we were both frustrated the whole time and yelling whenever the leads seemed like they won. I think netflix showed that satirical view of feminism you mentioned but they could have been stronger in showing you weren’t supposed to root for the leads. idk, it’s been awhile since i watched it

@BBB888B8B8

3 жыл бұрын

@@gabrielleporter553 YESSS I agree with you. They could have done it in a better way. I am saying this because there's literally people out there identifying with that and justifying that kind feminism.

I think the thing that made Black Panther work was that while Kilmonger was right about some things (that Black people the world over were oppressed with no assistance from Wakanda), he was also very wrong, in the end- he wanted to become an imperialist himself, just have Black people on top. And imperialism and colonialism are wrong. That’s why Kilmonger was wrong. His reasons were very good, but his goal wasn’t. And I really appreciate that the Hero started wrong (with fully believing in Wakandan isolationism), but ended right (using Wakanda’s resources to help the world), and the Villain started right, but ended wrong. That’s what made the story so damn good. As for Thanos- he was always wrong. He wanted to do his mission as a sop to his own ego. Also, Malthusianism is wrong. It’s just plain wrong. Overpopulation theory is associated with fascism and extreme right wing for a reason. While Malthus thought we’d hit a point at which population overcame resources (in terms of food), he never took into account growing technology. We still haven’t reached that point, and it’s been well over 200 years. 9 million people (mostly children) starve to death per year. That’s just death from lack of food, it does not include death from disease caused by malnutrition. But- that’s not due to a lack of resources at all. We have enough food right now to feed over 10 billion people, but we throw 40% of it away. The issue is one of distribution, and we don’t distribute where it’s needed because of profit motives. That’s it. It’s not a lack of recourses, it’s a system that rewards greed and doesn’t care about those without money and power. And in that way, Joker was right. The system is rigged. Billionaires are villains. We do need a Revolution. I just don’t think chaos is an acceptable type of revolution. Anarchism, yes. Chaos, no. (And no, anarchism as a political theory has nothing to do with chaos, it never did. Anarchism means no rulers, not no rules). But anyway. I think that’s also what makes Joker so great- much like Kilmonger, he’s right about the system being broken. Where they go wrong is their goal in what to do from there. And that’s why you can’t compare Thanos to the former two- Thanos was wrong to begin with.

For anyone really into Wicked and other stories that really twist the villain from an older story into someone much more complicated, especially with women, I would highly recommend the book, Circe. Gave me such strong Wicked vibes, and I love the badassery of these women!

As many have pointed before *The Take trying to include Gone Girl's monologue in as many videos as possible* and we do approve. Killmonger's one in the museum too. Anyways good job as usual.