I first saw the Duke at Crewe works in the summer of 1966. I had no idea what it was until I found it in the list of locomotives proposed for preservation in the Ian Allan Combined Volume. Next time I saw it was in Woodham's scrapyard in Barry and it looked like it was all over. Fortunately, it was saved. Thank you, Dai, for giving it the chance to make it into preservation.

@sirmatsdubois2509

10 ай бұрын

First of all you have to be pretty old to remember it from all the way back at crew works. Secondly, I completely agree with what you said. Dia gave this engine a chance at a second Life. although I do know he didn't do it out of purely the goodness of his heart since it was a financial site involved here but he did give many locomotives a chance at a second Life.

@iankemp1131

10 ай бұрын

@@sirmatsdubois2509 Indeed, the survival of the Barry engines was a fortunate accident but kudos to Dai for not exploiting it to demand high prices. Many, including me, would have said "What's the point of preserving the Duke, as it was a failure?" But the preservation group not only saved it, but found and solved the errors that had stopped it demonstrating its true potential.

The Duke in br service: weak. The Duke after preservation and rebuild: UNSPEAKBLY POWERFUL!

Good video. It was such a shame that Robert Riddles did not get to see "his" locomotive run in preservation. He died in 1983 but 71000 "Duke of Gloucester" did not steam again until 1986.

E.S Cox, who was part of the original design team, commented in the 1960s, "The whole engine was thus a very near miss. The cylinder efficiency was the highest ever recorded on any British locomotive, but the whole thing was let down by its inability to boil water fast. Why?" Sadly he and the other designers went to their graves without seeing their original work vindicated by the group that not only preserved and restored the Duke but also solved the two problems (wrong choice of chimney, incorrect construction of firebox/ashpan) that prevented it showing its true merit at the time.

Unlike the future P2 Mikado and Pennsylvania Railroad T1 replicas (both of which are based on designs hypothetically faster than the Mallard); this is actually the original locomotive itself getting to see eventual true potential.

@InevitableMe

10 ай бұрын

Not sure about the P2, but the T1 is a newbuild, not a replica.

@flamedude_1111

10 ай бұрын

Well, I don't think the P2s were hypothetically faster than the A4s, and both the P2 and the T1 are newbuilds modified to rectify the problems with each class so that kinda counts. In the T1's case, there weren't really problems with the original rather they had high maintenance costs.

@nielsleenknegt5839

10 ай бұрын

The only problem with the p2 that I recall was that the connecting/main rod (the one connecting piston and wheel) just couldn't handle the force of the cylinders while starting.

@jonathanj8303

10 ай бұрын

​@@nielsleenknegt5839the P2 also suffered from greater wear and maintenance requirements due to the longer coupled wheelbase and only having a 2 wheel leading truck, despite that being a fairly sophisticated design - not so much a problem as the inevitable consequence of operating a larger, longer wheelbase locomotive over the more difficult section of the ECML. No.2001's Lentz gear was never very satisfactory, having excessive clearance volumes that limited the benefits of high cut-offs, hence its rebuild to match the others. But given they all had 6'2" drivers, I'm not aware of any realistic suggestion that a P2 could be faster than an A4. Something similar applies to the W1 rebuild - although that did have 6'8" drivers, the front end sacrificed valve diameter in exchange for larger cylinders than the A4 (20" vs 18.5"). Net effect, even with the larger grate, was a locomotive set up to generate significantly higher power at medium speeds, but where the front end really throttled the possible output at higher RPM.

@robredz

10 ай бұрын

If the conditions had been more favourable, and speed was increased sooner on the bank its possible Mallard may have gone to 130 mph maybe a little more.

I actually made a drawing of the Duke a while ago but I didn't really know its incredible history! Then I watched the videos on this channel about it and I must admit I am absolutely amazed at this engine's story! It's one of the real world equivalent of Henry the green engine. an engine that was originally flawed as built but when somebody gave it a chance and gave it the modifications it needed it began soaring down the tracks! and especially in the Duke's case. I mean if British railways had built the locomotive according to The Blueprint and the recommendations they would have had a reliable Pacific to take the place of Princess Anne. instead they got an engine that was barely functional to begin with and all because they wanted to save money! but it also shows that sometimes people working in a garden shed can produce stuff of better quality than the ones that have big factories! and if I ever have the opportunity of seeing the duke in real life I will definitely give it a salute! because it was one of the brave soldiers of steam! but I also do agree with history in the dark. I don't think even if it was built the right way that British railways would have invested in more of this class. especially with dieselization on the way. Also I want to also point something out if I ever could do something against the former board of British Railways: I would hack their limbs off and ask them if I should only preserve the arm or the leg. because it doesn't matter if the engine had unique valve Gear other engines were also fitted with that valve Gear so it wasn't truly unique in that Factor and it was just a one of a kind engine. they should have preserved it in its entirety and not just its valve Gear. but then again British railways was just full of idiots who did not know what they were doing and should have just stayed away from railway operations. at least the duke can dance on their graves laughing because it's still around and They are not!

17:20 It's good to know Duke is the best train you can get compared to other diesel British Rail class 40

@kenmcdowell5325

10 ай бұрын

Never rated the class 40s under powered and overweight and unable to keep time on the heavy Scottish expresses

@marcleslac2413

9 ай бұрын

71000: "laughs in UNSPEAKBLY POWERFUL!"

@kenmcdowell5325

9 ай бұрын

@@marcleslac2413 A great pity that they couldn't solve the Dukes steaming problems out during its BR days. It never got to show its true potential and power.

I live near Crewe. I met a man named Mike Lenz whose uncle was the Duke's fireman. In 1960, he got a cab ride from Crewe to Carlisle and back. That's nearly 300 miles. Lucky boy, he was. He was also there to see the Duke's cylinders be cut off and hauled away in May 1967. He said it brought him to tears. His uncle hated her, though. He had to take 3 baths to get all the coal dust out of his skin. But he certainly is glad the big bruiser was saved and so am I. She's truly a legend.

Well researched and presented. I saw this loco as a very young train spotter many times on the west coast main line close to my home. My absolute favourite steam loco. Only saw her twice in preservation though. Many thanks Darkness keep them coming.

@TheFunnyDictator

10 ай бұрын

Hey, are there tornadoes in the UK? Also, are you Irish?

@nielsleenknegt5839

10 ай бұрын

@HitlerLovesAnime whell there is A Tornado. (A peppercorn A1 Pacific newbuild)

@TheFunnyDictator

10 ай бұрын

@@nielsleenknegt5839 What's a tornado locomotive?

The gresley P2 class 2-8-2 had also quite some flaws, and the locomotives ended up being reconstructed by Edward Thompson who followed up Sir Nigel Gresley. These rebuilds into 4-6-2s proved to be even worse in some cases. In the new build P2 2-8-2 under construction by the same group which made Tornado some major redesign has taken place to iron out these flaws. So time will tell if the new P2 will be as good as the reconstructed Duke of Gloucester.

@nielsleenknegt5839

10 ай бұрын

That's a different story though. They were made for a specific job (The abberdeen expresses) and basically forgotten about when Gresley started playing with his A4s. Also railway mainia has a wonderful podcast on Thompson and why he rebuild them. And circumstances around the tile they were in...

Loved this video. I have fond memories of 71000. I spent a lot of time in the 90s crawling over her at Didcot Railway Centre. A really beautiful locomotive. 👍

My favourite part of the story - when the preservation group for this loco asked around other preservation groups about tips and hints about restoring this loco, most of them were not optimistic - in fact, one of the really prominent groups replied "FORGET IT... restoring that loco will be too big a job for a small group such as yours". Undaunted, they went ahead and bought it - and persisted until it was running better than it ever had.

The Duke is a firm favourite, and while it did trump the Duchess' service record on Shap itself she has never quite reached the UK record for measured power...officially standing at an estimated 2511dbhp and held by, you guessed it, a Duchess (6234 Duchess of Abercorn) during blastpipe trials and hauling an insane 20 car train. Widely respected experts of the time (including Great Eastern railway engineer and technical journalist C J Allen) calculated the cylinder figure to have been in excess of 3200hp and as high as 3330hp. None the less, the Duke is spectacular to watch in action, and really is close to the very top echelon of British steam.

@DeCasoU1

10 ай бұрын

Which was quite poor when compared to the regular output of the French 231E Pacifics which was also a sustainable figure.

@hiyadroogs

5 ай бұрын

Actually, Simon, Duke Of Gloucester handsomely exceeded the Duchess class in DBHP. On her record Shap ascent, she recorded a calculated AVERAGE DBHP over the entire climb of over 2,700. Meaning that the peak output would have touched 3,000 at the drawbar. The average figure attained on the climb is at least equal to an all out Deltic!!

OMG, an American saying Gloucester correct is amazing, well done DTC!! 👏

@572Btriode

10 ай бұрын

I concur.

Duke of Gloucester has one of the best steam locomotive names.

15:50 and 16:58 Thanks for the Duke Nukem quotes, which kind of makes sense because this engine has the title of "Duke".

How about talking about the City of Truro and LNER Papyrus on an individual basis? Papyrus is a sister design to the Flying Scotsman (which in itself has a cool name and is a big favorite of mine) that deserves to be remembered. As for City of Truro; if you're not ready to talk about the American Type locomotives yet, you can start with an European design of the wheel arraignment. While it never achieved a world record; the fact it was capable of 102 miles per hour for that type is impressive. Helps that it's a very nice looking design; even if Flying Scotsman is more famous and looks even better to me.

Nice video, well researched and scripted. Well Done. This fine machine is my Unicorn. I got into trainspotting and video making about 12 years ago and every time I had the opportunity to see the Duke on the mainline its had been replaced or cancelled altogether. She kept failing her fitness to run tests. (Apparently she had a flat spot on one of her tender wheels) And now she's out of commission having a heavy overhaul which I believe is due to be finished very soon after many setbacks and delays. Hopefully by then, I'll finally be able to see and record this magnificent beast living and breathing on the main line!

Duke of Gloucester proves what can be done.

The ashpan and dampers were not built according to the drawings (reduced area) and this was a major problem. In conjunction with the blastpipe, it made the air blast through the fire too strong so that above a certain power output, small coal just got blown straight out of the chimney and coal consumption was huge. In preservation it can achieve far higher maximum steam production rates, since those two problems were fixed.

R.A.Riddles' engineering and drawings were correct. They were not followed correctly when 71000 was built and no one could be bothered to fix problems. His final design was a masterpiece in steam locomotive engineering - the 9F.

Dude used Duke Nukem quotes in a video!! Sweet! "It's time to kick ass and chew bubble gum. And I'm all outta gum."

@kristoffermangila

10 ай бұрын

In this case, it would be like this: "Its time to kick ass and chew some coal. And I'm all outta coal".

The locomotive is more efficient than the Coronation class, which are probably the best British steam locomotives ever. If the 71000 was actually successful and it’s problems that were solved later were solved before, they could have been the most successful mainline steamer in Britain

@tidepoolclipper8657

10 ай бұрын

Coronation Scot used to be the fastest steam locomotive until it lost that to only a few other designs in history; the most well known of those being Mallard. While I prefer the Mallard in looks over the Coronation Scot, both are good lookers.

@threepea1151

10 ай бұрын

@@tidepoolclipper8657 The class isn’t called the “Coronation Scot” it’s just the “Coronation Class.” And a streamlined lms coronation could probably beat the A4s in speed due to them being more powerful

The Duke owed much of its existence due to Oliver Bulleid, who was chief mechanical engineer of the Southern Railway. Before his appointment to the Southern, Bullied was assistant to Sir Nigel Gresley of the Great North Railway, and had a hand in the design of the A4 class of which the world speed record holder Mallard was a member. But it was Bullied's Pacific Merchant Navy class on the Southern, that Robert Riddles based his design of the standard seven's of which the Duke was a development of. Triva: Walter Owen Bentley, the founding engineer of the Bentley car company, was a big fan of Bullied's locos, and could often be seen at London's Victoria station talking to the driver and fireman of one of Bullied's locos.

Thanks mate. Great video of a brilliant loco. Cheers

Bloody good job for a foreigner. Well done!

A friend of mine said he watched a Class 43 InterCity 125 race by, and then watched the Duke race by. He said the 43 was like a slick windstorm, and the Duke was a powerful earthquake. The Duke is a dominant force and one I hope to see myself in the future

Don’t think I’ve ever seen this loco in person, but I do remember seeing the replica of it’a cab at the National Railway Museum.

It will be nice to see the Duke once more. with the latest modifications it should prove to be a great loco.

Thanks - from a Duke admirer. My great-grandfather Thomas Clifford (1850-1915) was a driver on the Midland Railway.

WOW, THIS VIDEO IS AMAZING, I LOVE IT!

Commentary needs a correction: Spheroidal graphite cast iron is otherwise known as nodular iron NOT ductile iron, ductile iron is otherwise known as malleable iron. Much less brittle and stronger than regular cast iron, it's actually used in some applications as an alternative for high carbon steel (Detroit locker style differentials are often made of nodular iron).

Just love the New York accent, delivery and enthusiam - makes this a great video.

There were a few examples of late steam engines that were flawed. They weren’t fixed as diesels were on the way. New York Central’s Pittsburgh & Lake Erie was assigned what were to be ten Berkshire type locomotives. Only six were completed and delivered to P&LE. They had proven to be poorly built and were only used briefly before being sold for scrap by your friend Al Pearlman.

AMAZING VIDEO LIKE ALWAYS

We can only imagine what would've happened if BR fully designed her and let her live to her full potential.

@TheFunnyDictator

10 ай бұрын

What do you think would've changed? Please reply to me!

@matthewpowell2429

10 ай бұрын

@@TheFunnyDictator I believe that if the engine performed in her full potential, I believe somehow, it would lead to steam engine thriving longer. The diesels would still takeover, but steam would continue on a bit longer, at most until the mid to late 1970s.

@TheFunnyDictator

10 ай бұрын

@@matthewpowell2429 Why did the British Railways modernize so late?!

@kristoffermangila

10 ай бұрын

Actually, what the previous commenter said that if the Duke was brought to its full potential, steam would have lasted longer, as late as the 1970s like the steam locomotives of the Japan National Railways, which lasted until that time. As it was, steam lasted on BR until the early 1960s.

16:58 It’s Soo Funny How In This Seen The Duke Of Gloucester Straight Up Roasts The Type 4’s too there face and says: “Hmmmm Looks Like The Dictionary Says Your An BÌTCH!” lol, the most funniest locomotive worst ever 🤣😂

Love the video and of my favorite steam locomotive british rail rules

Sis just had one of the biggest train glow-ups of all time, second only to the Big Boy #4014 🗿🗿

This is wezzing EPIC

Looks like The Duke's gonna make a return later this year too 🤘

Three toots for Duke: WWWWWHHHOOOOOOOOO!!!! WWWWWHHHOOOOOOOOO!!!! WWWWWHHHOOOOOOOOO!!!!

The Duke is such an awsome engine!!! :D

Richard, The Duke of Gloucester is very proactive in keeping up to date with the loco's progression and has driven the loco on more than one occassion. As far as CME's go, Robert Riddles was unique as he was one of the very few CMEs to have driven a locomotive, this was during the railway strike of May 1926. This led him to discover on the journey to Carlisle from Crewe, that six coupled wheels were far better than four when he drove both the Prince of Wales (4-6-0) and George V (4-4-0). The Preservation scene is allowing old locomtives designs to be corrected to allow opitmal performance and for a new genration to see locomotives operating at their very best! Come to the U.K. next year as she will be 70 years old.

@iankemp1131

8 ай бұрын

The family seem to have had an interest in trains. Prince William of Gloucester was a patron of the Talyllyn Railway in the 1970s before his untimely death in an air crash. I even as a child rode on a train which he was driving there (in 1971).

@billmmckelvie5188

8 ай бұрын

@@iankemp1131 Thanks, I never knew that!

@iankemp1131

8 ай бұрын

@@billmmckelvie5188 Thanks, likewise I wasn't aware of the current family's interest until seeing your post.

Not that it’ll every happen but it would be interesting to see what a “class 10” hybrid of the duke and the 9f would produce. Two extra driving axles, which would mean longer boiler and possibly larger fire box to suit the 9f frame with the caproti valve gear and correct exhaust for the rebuilt duke. Oh the UNSPEAKABLE POWER and BIG CHUNGUS.

@iankemp1131

10 ай бұрын

Nice idea, but it might not work! The firebox and grate of the 9F and Duke were about as big as could be fitted into the UK loading gauge (and the Duke was initially hamstrung by wrong ashpan construction limiting air access). There was plenty of adhesion already and the boiler was big enough to provide the right power. So more axles would just have meant it couldn't go round bends or fit onto turntables, and a longer boiler would have given higher tube pressure drop and potentially worse steaming.

May a make a couple of suggestions for potential future videos? First a top 5 list for steam locomotives built after 1960, and second a video like this one about 60163 Tornado.

The Caprotti valve gear was preserved and was displayed in the Great Western Railway Museum ( the predecessor to the current museum: “Steam”) which was situated in the old GWR Mechanics Institute in Swindon.

There were a few operational issues when it concerned the enginemen who operated it. The west coast crews loved their Princess Coronation (Duchess') because they could brim the firebox with coal and then top up the tender before heading up to Scotland. The 8P didn't cope with the Crewe North practice so it didn't steam as well. I read a story in Steam Railway magazine a few years ago about a fireman who regularly fired her, he recounted that they were meant to take her back on a parcel/mail train from Glasgow but the Duchess that was meant to run the southbound sleeper had failed and the only available engine was the Duke. Long story short by the time they got to Crewe the tender was empty!

@iankemp1131

8 ай бұрын

Basically because of the construction errors (grate/ashpan) and cut-price design (blastpipe) it burned far more coal than it should have done, as much went unburnt out of the chimney, so no wonder the firemen hated it at the time, doing lots of heavy extra work for no benefit. Happily, no longer the case!

I was friendly with an ex BR fitter, at Swindon works, he worked on 71000, when it was undergoing work to solve poor steaming, they tried several different modifications to the firebox drafting, but was not really successful and the loco was put aside for many months... Swindon was at that time constructing Warship and Western diesel hydraulic locos and little interest was shown in the big pacific, she was eventually withdrawn from service, but one on the cylinders was removed for preservation , the rest went for scrap....we all know the rest....

@iankemp1131

8 ай бұрын

Very interesting. A logical thing to try, but because of the constructional errors with the ashpan and dampers which were not known at the time, it would not be sufficient. I suspect the Duke would have been a better loco with either the Kylchap exhaust or an ashpan constructed according to the drawings, but without both of these, it couldn't be fixed.

A quick FYI, one of the main reasons we British kept developing steam locomotives as long as we did, was the simple matter of raw materials and energy. Britain has abundant amounts of high quality coal, like bitumen. Not the poor lignite brown coals you see elsewhere in the world. Therefore, it was cheap compared to oil and gas. That really only changed, when the coal mines were closed by the uni party between the 60s and the 80s.

@iankemp1131

8 ай бұрын

Partly true, but because of the much higher efficiency, more predictable power and easier maintenance of diesels (when proper facilities and training had been provided) they were being adopted in preference from the 1955 Modernisation plan onwards, accelerated in the 1960s. The later closure of coal mines is a red herring - more to do with supply outstripping demand and cheaper foreign coal being available (opencast seams up to 150-200 feet deep as against deep mined twisted 10 foot seams in the UK).

Hey, can someone please tell me what the engine's original creator's reaction was to all this? Someone please reply to me!

British Rail: You're a failure Duke after her rebuild: Or am I

Good job boys!!!

15:49 - Nice 👍🕶

As Danny Kaye used to sing....."You're not a duck, you're a swan !"

British locomotive companies, including BR didn't help themselves by their aversion to paying to use patented designs like kychap chimneys etc - only 4 of the Gresley A4s originally had more than single chimneys (facepalm)

if steam was never retired i believe that steam engines would of been so efficient we probably could not imagine it.

An extremely handsome engine Built in Britain before Street Stabbings & Rubber Boats. Need I say more ...

Would you say that Duke of Gloucester is kind of like the more successful British version of Baldwin 60,000?

46202 was not withdrawn until May 1954 and therefore spent 18 months at Crewe Works. The general consensus is that the maintenance staff were keen to repair it. The other express loco, City of Glasgow, was repaired. At least the boiler of 46202 was reused. Another factor leading to the construction of 71000 was the fact that an International Railway Congress in London took place in May/June 1954, so presumably British Railways wanted to show off a new engine. It is not correct that 71000 spent most of its days on the North Wales main line. It usually worked between Crewe and Euston, but also sometimes worked through to Glasgow, and even occasionally to Perth and Aberdeen.

15:05 SG iron smells sulphury when machined, quite pleasant in a strange way. It would be cool if David Waldale modified it.

The philosophy behind the Standard Class locomotives was to maximise the use of common components to minimise construction and maintenance costs at the expense of ultimate performance. This was because post war there was a skilled labour shortage on the railways. Many of the problems of this design and construction were because of the use of existing components, appears even changes adopted during her construction such as using an undersized firebox, probably because she was a one off they wanted to avoid need for new tooling.

The justification for continuing to have steam locomotives was that, post war, oil was relatively expensive, we didn't as a country have a lot of money, but we had a lot of coal in the ground. The main future was thought not to be diesels but electrification - the coal would be burnt in power stations, not the loco. It didn't work out that way but there was some logical justification not just "because they liked steam trains" :)

The Duke Nukem of Gloucester

I need to know: what is that metal music in the Dominance part?

@HistoryintheDark

10 ай бұрын

That's the Duke Nukem Forever theme.

@doctoremil2678

10 ай бұрын

@@HistoryintheDark Thank you.👍

Funny thing about Riddles-when he built the Austerity 2-8-0's, 2-10-0's and saddle tanks for the War Department, he made the comment that "I do not care about what happens to them after the war. You can dump them all in the sea for all I care" yet he built more steam engines.

@iankemp1131

8 ай бұрын

That was more because they were a cheap, quickly produced no-frills design to meet a short term need. The 9Fs then refined the design into a fine locomotive with much better usability, especially for the crews.

I am still of the opinion that BR intentionally built the duke incorrectly, to justify their dieselization project. The original engineers' notes from the duke's construction reflects this, as many of the builders suggested most if not all of the modifications that the duke's restorers added, when she was restored. These suggestions were ignored by BR management, and the flawed design was pushed forward.

Don't forget that - in the 1950's - Britain had plentiful supplies of its own coal, but North Sea Oil was still 15 years in the future.

Ok i have to ask. What is her specs? Like traction effort, hp, top speed and weight. She is a beauty of a machine just want to know more?

@iankemp1131

10 ай бұрын

You can find tractive effort and weight in the Wikipedia entry (BR Class 8). Top speed and horsepower unfortunately aren't specific for a steam engine, unlike a diesel or an electric which deliver a consistent maximum power output. He quotes some maximum hp figures at 17:25 onwards.

@geoffreyking4515

8 ай бұрын

​@@iankemp1131what bollox ,go and have a run on her then you'll find out

@iankemp1131

8 ай бұрын

@@geoffreyking4515 Frankly, a pathetic comment.

17:07 "Says you're a (whistle)"

Definitely purely legendary class of engine (one punch ✊) a real shame that she the only one but who knows maybe we could build her siblings I mean we in the 2020 years so it is possible

17:00 Is like a British Niagara they could keep up with diesel engines that were supposed to replace them.

All hail Dai Woodham, the unintentional saviour of UK steam.

British Railways when problems were found: don't care we don’t know how to fix them Preservationists: **fixes all problems and shows what could've been** British Railways: **gasp** WHAT?!!

one more point is that the technology of manufacturing poppet valve gear was at its infancy when the idea came up. The manufacturing technology was far better when it was reconstructed. So the poppet valve gear could live up to its theroretical potential and durablility.

Although the recorded peak maximum power output of the "Duke" and indeed the LMS "Duchesses" is indeed higher than the Class 40 diesels, the latter could develop 2000 hp continuously over long periods, not just for a few minutes. Certainly not convinced she "outperformed their replacements" (16:58); those were the Class 47 or 50 diesels (2580 and 2700 hp respectively) or the Class 81-87 electric locos (3680-5000 hp). For all their merits, steam engines can't haul modern express trains at 100 mph continuously for long distances.

@teddansonLA

10 ай бұрын

The class 40s only produced 1400 DPHP, the 2000 HP is at the output shaft of the diesel, and there's fairly large losses throughout the power train on any diesel electric (diesel hydraulics are even worse - the class 52 got about 1800 DBHP). The class 47s and 50s peak power at the drawbar is about 2200 DBHP, nothing like the 2700 HP before all the losses. Of course, the diesels could be paired up without more crew, which was another advantage. Diesels win over steam because they produce their power over a wide range of speeds, not just when they are moving fast, and they are lighter, since they don't haul a heavy tender behind them, hence they don't slow too much on gradients or when having to restart. The electrics obviously completely defeat all other forms of traction, having massive power and light weight.

@iankemp1131

10 ай бұрын

@@teddansonLA Thanks, very helpful explanation and useful figures. I'd also add that a big advantage for the diesel is that it can produce its full maximum power continuously for long periods. Steam locomotives could produce high peak values by "mortgaging the boiler" but steam pressure then tended to fall. This flexibility could be useful for producing high transient power output for a short sharp climb. A long sustained effort tended to need "thrashing" of the engine and high coal consumption, plus heavy demands on the firemen, since no British express engines had mechanical stokers.

@johnkeepin7527

10 ай бұрын

And the other modernisation issues that were relevant during that period of time were the adoption of overhead line electrification (OLE), on some routes, and the choice of diesel traction on routes that didn’t have it. In the late 1950s, the London - Liverpool & Manchester scheme was underway, and parts of the ex Great Eastern suburban routes, and part of the Glasgow area. If it had gone to plan, it would have reached the outskirts of Glasgow and completed it from London Euston to Glasgow, but of course it ran short of cash (seen that recently?) and led to the rental (and much later purchase of) the class 50 design from English Electric around 1967. They covered a 7 year gap on the West Coast, before transfer to the Western Region when electrification to Glasgow was completed. If the original plan had been followed, they would not exist.@@teddansonLA

@DeCasoU1

10 ай бұрын

@@iankemp1131 Railways designed for sustained power outputs not transitory ones. A French 231E could sustain 3,700 ihp and had no mechanical stoker. Some of their firemen could manage a firing rate of two tons an hour though you shouldn't expect everyone to equal this. Some engines were fitted with stokers and the 240P could maintain 4,400 ihp. The French railways needed these outputs to work their trains. Intermittent output is of little use when planning and operating a timetable; you need dependable predictable output from your traction.

Regarding be poor steaming then years ago Steam Railway had done an article about the Duke and it prompted a fireman from Crewe to write in. Whilst most crews had treated the Duke like a large Brit, he had seen a 3 cylinder steam engine and so had fired the Duke like you would a Royal Scot. He stated that had no problems with steaming or performance unlike the crews that treated her like a large Brit. Brits being 2 cylinder locomotives. Royal Scots being 3 cylinder Different steam loco’s with their different characteristics required different methods of firing and driving to get them to perform properly. So was not just the management that not interested but many of the people working on the engines not interested either. Not saying she would have performed as well as does now after extensive modifications to the as built config but clearly she never had a chance as not being fired correctly of showing what could do at the time.

Near the end he says that she wouldn't have had any sisters, but the whole BR standard class development (that the Duke was part of) was a long term plan; the UK doesn't have any oil, but it does have coal, so in the event of war diesels would be totally reliant on diesel imports, not always reliable during war, so the plan was to use steam for 10 years, and during those 10 years electrify the lines so we could use coal fuelled power stations to power the railways. All the BR standard class engines were the best of all the different railway companies ideas in standard forms that would run over the whole of the rail network during those 10 years, but just after they were designed and put into service, there was a change of government, and to get re-elected in the next election they decided to modernise the railways by going to diesel, scraping locomotives that still had loads of life left in them. The reproductions of this short term plan are still with the UK railways today. If it wasn't for this short term plan, it's quite possible that more class 8s would have been built.

Very good site. Only one thing. The use of the word cars does not mean trucks etc in UK! But rest very good factual...now playing on the words bit....You made the grade!!!!

Forget about Elon vs Mark. We need a Perlman vs Dai Woodham Ring Fight

I wonder how the PRR 5550 T1 will compete against the Duke

Wish that we could build her some siblings some where in the world maybe in Australia or anywhere in the world

I've tried finding an answer online but I failed. Is The Duke more powerful than the 9F Evening Star?

@jaanshersaeed4541

10 ай бұрын

The Class 8 Duke of Gloucester’s tractive effort is 39,080 lbf while the 9F’s are 39,667 lbf so the latter would be stronger

@markstott6689

10 ай бұрын

@@jaanshersaeed4541 Thank you. Your response is appreciated. 🤩

@iankemp1131

10 ай бұрын

@@jaanshersaeed4541 But tractive effort is not a true representation of power. It only represents starting torque at the wheels, and freight engines have a higher TE than passenger ones because they have smaller wheels. The real indicator of power is drawbar horsepower (EDHP), but that can't be predicted easily. It depends on boiler size, grate area, quality of steaming and other practical factors. Plenty of engines that were powerful on paper were unsuccessful in practice, including the Duke in its original format. However, the rebuilt Duke and the 9Fs including Evening Star are both very successful and perform superbly in practice as well as theory. The 9Fs with only 5 ft wheels would suffer high wear if used regularly on high-speed express trains, though they ran a lot faster than expected, often at 70-75 mph and once timed at 90! Boiler size was similar to the Duke but grate area was slightly smaller and there was less cylinder volume. So that Duke would be expected to have a slightly higher power output at top speed than Evening Star.

@jaanshersaeed4541

10 ай бұрын

@@iankemp1131 Yeah, haven’t been completely sure what tractive effort’s about though I wonder if the Duke of Gloucester and a 9F were to pull a heavy goods train with the same amount of trucks (like say 30 of them) while not going fast which one would have an easier time and if they were to go up and push each other buffer to buffer which would have an easier time pushing the other. I’ve read that the Coronations were said to be the most powerful steam engines in Great Britain though the U1 Garratt was extremely huge and powerful.

@iankemp1131

10 ай бұрын

​@@jaanshersaeed4541 The thing about tractive effort was that it had a formula and was nice and easy to calculate, so it was tempting to use it as a measure of power. The GWR rather naughtily used it to claim that their Castle class was more powerful than Flying Scotsman in 1924. Actually it was, but not for that reason! They were then hoist with their own petard when the Southern built the Lord Nelson class with a slightly higher TE, so they built the Kings and even reduced the wheel diameter by 2 inches to push TE over 40,000 lb. The LMS Duchesses had a similar TE but could sustain higher power outputs than the Kings as they had a larger firegrate and boiler and thus higher continuous steam production capacity, as did the LNER A4s. They and the Duchesses were the engines which recorded the highest power outputs in BR days, but to measure it accurately you had to attach a special recording coach to the train (dynamometer car) and it depended on load, weather conditions and the skill of the fireman. Since then the Duke and SR Merchant Navy Pacifics have produced similar power outputs (I believe), all when climbing Shap on mainline steam specials. A 9F produced over 2000 hp in the 1960s with the Pines Express on the steep Somerset and Dorset line. Power is actually proportional to speed so a slow goods engine needs less power even on an extremely heavy train. Both the 9F and the Duke would have no problem with a heavy goods train, and if pushing buffer to buffer (a fascinating idea, like a tug-of-war but pushing) they should be comparable. Their TE's are so similar that the small difference in favour of the 9F could be outweighed by many other factors.

So they were still coming up with better steam engines (though this engine had some problems) till the end and I wonder what a modern steam engine would be like because I have read articles that stay there are many way to make traditional steam engines that could have made them better then they got.

@stephencope7178

8 ай бұрын

Some crewmen called the loco The idle Duke. Coal consumption and performance were a disappointment, due partly to a badly designed ashpan that starved it of air.

Duke Duke Duke Duke!!!!!!

Can you talk about The Litra E from Denmark.

I dont like British steam much, but i respect it very much. They are the ones who invented steam locomotives, but dadgum this engine is pretty. Im hoping to buy IC 2542 from McComb Mississippi.

@melina001a

10 ай бұрын

If it was not for Bitish Steam the US would have one. As the first US engines where bought from the Stevensons who were uk based

@ChargerusPrime

10 ай бұрын

@@melina001a I realize that, but once we started making them, we made em bigger and better.

You might say it was Riddled with errors.

The duke got justice

It’s crazy yet fortunate how the Duke went from being a failure to a success.

2049th

I swear steam only worked with the big four and not with BR.

Krakaw!

It is a convenient myth that the BR standard class steam locomotives were the result of megolomania by the 'chief' designer. In fact the real reasons that the steam locomotives were built are in fact two totally pragmatic in nature, In the first place, the railway infrastructure of Britain was in a deplorable state after the Second World War, during which the railways had been under constant pressure to maintain the best possible service under severe conditions while being absolutely starved of investment even for any but the most basic repair and replacement. There were a whole variety of non-standardised locomotives and stock, reflecting origins the varying regions, and prior to that companies, which comprised the British rail network and the long period of time over which it had develeoped. The second reason was the dire state of the British economy and balance of payments on international trade thanks to the fact that Britain was being required to pay massive amounts of interest and repay loans to America for all the assitance they had given (did I say given?) . Pre-war there had already been a number of initial moves towards diesel powered traction rather than coal, but post war these were relegated to pipe-dream status as oil would have to be imorted whereas good steam coal was 'home-grown'. So the design of more efficient steam locomotives to cover the varied needs of railway operation seemed a logical answer, drawing on the best ideas from the various regions. And then as the financial situation improved a gradual move to diesel traction would take place. But of course.... Politicians love novelty, as it means they are able to promote something they haven't already buggered up, and so while a system running on two technologies at the same time (3 if we include electrified railways) with gradual transition from one to the other may have posed some problems but would have been workable, some bright spark decided to do it at one fell swoop. So they did. Was the waste involved justified? Well on that one you pays your money and you takes your choice!!

First they built him wrong, then treated him like trash, then dumped him. Later he came back and gave them the middle finger.

Duke sounds like Henry from Thomas the tank engine

The duke has black forces in it's cab at all times 🤣💀

@geoffreyking4515

8 ай бұрын

Oh yes ,no question she's evil alright

Not shouting an otherwise excellent commentary would be nice.

Quintons Hill, not Quintonshill.

I’m the Duke of earl. Lol