The fact that you can never talk about the impacts of these kinds of incidents after they occur is the dead give away that it’s bullying. They use fear and intimidation and further abuse to oppress any reaction. Horrible!!!

Absolutely relate to this! My mistakes, even the smallest, were fodder for further bullying. Not allowed to speak about it afterwards. Anger made it worse. You learn to “take it” and pretend not to be affected. If you do say anything, gaslighting and that “too sensitive” line make you feel crazy. And it gets normalized so when other people treated me similarly later in life, I didn’t label it as abuse. Thank you Mary!! All this makes SO much sense. We adapted and internalized abusive treatment to survive. No more for me.

@scapegoatchildrecovery

Ай бұрын

@@user-ek4fl3jk4q ❤️‍🩹❤️‍🩹❤️‍🩹

I’m 50 and am now distancing myself from my NM. Is to common for the abuse to get worse when they are older? My mother is the most toxic she’s been now in her late 70s. How do these evil people hide what they do to us, I am struggling to cope with how well hidden my (and many of your) abuse is . My mom is so phoney and fake, but nobody else sees!!

@scapegoatchildrecovery

Ай бұрын

@@Lovelife20004 yes best to expect and be prepared for the worst. Their cruelty knows no bounds.

@Ibelieveinathingcalledlove

Ай бұрын

I’m in my fifties and my father got somewhat milder in his remarks until he got cancer and had a very short time to live. The abuse ramped up again up until the day he died. It was very jarring to see the mean bastard resurface.

@user-hr8rn1hf9i

26 күн бұрын

Yes I am I’m my 50s and I completely expected my parents to get better as they aged, maybe get wiser and more mild. But in fact, when I spend any little bit of time behind closed doors with them (they act relatively “normal“ when out, when there are people around), I can see that either their behavior is as bad as it always was (and as a child, I was just in denial out of necessity), or they’ve actually gotten worse. My mother has regular screaming fits about how horrible I am, my father uses blatant manipulation and fear tactics, and I am attacked and made fun of for my opinions and anything about me that stands out. I think these type of people get worse with age as a rule.

@A.S.Harfenklang

12 күн бұрын

I went no contact after trying hard to talk, write... I got back decades later to find that they hadn`t changed principally. They are able to treat people better, not as bad as they treated me. But with me everything turned out to remain about the same, some things more subtle, some techniques even improved, some exactly like as a teenager - glad I did a lot of therapy and study of toxic behaviour, so this time I understood especially the tactics of one of my siblings. So glad I don`t have to return to the same home with her. So glad I have caring, sensitive and empathetic people in my life now.

I noticed that 'mocking' and also 'goading' (which the narc parents did constantly) were not things that really featured much in life outside the family. I remember spending a week in my primary narcissist's company, after years apart, and dang, that mocking voice appeared within 24 hours. Same tone, same WORDS even, which I hadn't heard for years! It was pretty amazing, and really proved to me where the real problem was, lol. I think that mocking, shaming, goading etc are valuable tools to the narcissist, which you rarely even encounter outside the home. Maybe a little, but nothing much, nothing you can't handle. Whereas in the narc home, these things occur on a daily basis.

It was happening to me in my early 20s by my sisters, I became alcoholic, from abusive childhood, many years later, I have cut them off, no contact with one, the other one stopped ringing too, they are just the cruellest people, it took me a .ong time to come to terms with, and it has had a terrible affect on me, I cannot be around people without paranoia, I don't trust anyone so I am alone, need to see therapist, but then not many understand this thing!🎉🎉🎉🎉thanks, blessings Mary!❤

@brooks8792

Ай бұрын

Take care!

Thank you 🙏 😊for being here ❤❤❤. My mom is 93 and I trying to be there for her, but she is still connected to the narcissist. I had to walk away today. ❤

@user-hr8rn1hf9i

26 күн бұрын

I’m in a similar situation. I can’t walk away fully as I’m slowly recovering from a chronic disorder which I trace directly to the child abuse. But my plans are to fly the coup immediately when I’m able.

I just the last few weeks after running from shame my whole life, I turned and faced it, felt it, reframed it, explored it, more work to do no doubt but I feel reducing the fear of it is a start. I get shame attacks just doing anything and talking to anyone, like they must have thought I was an idiot, because I was mocked all the time growing up. I've realised it's the abuser's thoughts, and now it's only me keeping it going not anyone around. I hope it continues to lose it's power.

@bogifabian1

Ай бұрын

Me too. This year, something is happening collectively. 🙌

@infplife1637

Ай бұрын

It certainly will continue to lose it's power, and that is the reward for your courage! You're doing great, I know how painful and horrible those shame attacks are. I rarely have them these days, and if I do the feeling passes quite quickly. The shame attacks used to follow me around for days like a black cloud. You will get there!

Emotional incest. It had to stop... We scapegoats are transforming the unfelt pain of/for many many generations. The hoovers are heartbreaking - don't go back, ever! ❤‍🩹❤‍🩹❤‍🩹❤‍🩹❤‍🩹 Mary, you are saving lives🙌🏻 YOU BRAVE

@scapegoatchildrecovery

Ай бұрын

@@bogifabian1 thank you for your kind words 🌺

Imagine bullying Mary. Like pick on someone your own size! The sadism is off the charts!

I always think of my sisters and mother a pack of mean girls. Yes, I’d like to forgive, but you can’t have forgiveness without remorse. No contact for 1 yr. Definitely feel better. I have some undiagnosed neurological condition. Can’t help but feel the poor treatment and shame is the root cause of my inability to walk.

I feel embarrassment/shame not to be surrounded by people who love and value me. I'm alone. They all still have each other. Oh yes, I asked my mother to stop calling me sensitive and shew blew up, how dare I be hurt by her!!!!

@MaryDBethany

Ай бұрын

yes, not allowed to say you were hurt, or show it in any way. Worst abuse was then.

@christianrokicki

Ай бұрын

Sensitive. That’s what they tell other people to cover their tracks. And then other people start telling you you’re sensitive, too. Because the abuser explained it too them. Ah, yes it is truly a sensitive response to tell someone they are just sensitive when they are being abused. Which is to say abuse would not bother them at all. They’d probably like it! That explains it! Normal people enjoy abuse but there is something wrong with you. Everyone is treated equally but you are bothered by it more than most. If you examine the logic it does not make sense. Whatever one calls it it is frustrating. And sickening. And then I start thinking maybe I do need to be less sensitive when it comes to these fools. They’re stupid and cruel and not even God can change that. We do not live in a just world, as they are so fond of saying, as if to say this let them off the hook. But I have had only limited success… since being less sensitive has not turned them into loving or caring people any more than telling them I was in pain and needed love and respect did. Still it seems like I’m doing something wrong and inherently defective, which is normal for most people, supposedly, though some are just more sensitive to feeling defective and unloved.

The fact you can allow the shame feelings and still navigate life well enough to help others and live as a free human being really gives hope to me and obviously many others. Thank you so much for giving me this hope!

I had a chance to heal, understand, come to love and accept myself and distance myself from my family, it took me many years to heal from this toxic upbringing and had to do inner child healing, change my belief system, put strong boundaries up and surround myself with loving and caring people which support and love me.

Thank you Mary, I needed to hear that. I do keep myself hidden. I had abuse from my family and inlaws. I had abuse coming at me from both sides. It was hell. We finally went no contact a few years ago. Still trying to learn how to heal but understanding the effects has been helpful. You are a blessing. Thank you, it helps to see your courage.

Thank you for validating the experiences for so many of us. Although it breaks my heart to hear that others have gone through the constant distraught that I have, it feels encouraging to know "no you weren't going crazy" "yes you were right about what was going on" and "you're not alone." Deterred but not destroyed. I hope each of you know how special you really are. And they know that which is why they tried to destroy that light in you be it family, friends, coworkers, etc.

Thats horrific treatment.

This happened to me......only it was at work. A personal letter was opened amd left on the desk for everyone to see (which is against the law). Was new at the job so let it go. No Mary, you were the highest of the high. I dont know how they live with themselves. Can relate to this.

@PassionateFlower

Ай бұрын

They can "live" with themselves because they are dead inside. And they have blunted capacity for empathy. They are also sadists. They feel good causing distress in others, it helps regulate their mood. Our suffering is an antidepressant for them. So they sleep well knowing we are struggling.

@user56gghtf

Ай бұрын

@PassionateFlower Yep. Perceived control because they're never in control but they think they are.

Dear Mary, your words are one hundred percent accurate and true. I believe they should be added to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, and in general shared to promote awareness. Please stay well and free of the past.

I very much understand the severity, expecially when it is a child that has to be the cycle breaker for many generations of dysfunction.

Thank you for this very informative, intimate + personal account of "Shame & The Family Scapegoat"....I am 2nd Generation Irish (Mother: Galway/Mayo Ireland)-Italian (Father: Salerno/Pola Italy) from a highly DYSfunctional Narcissistic family dynamic with very clearly ordained (cult-like) Golden-Children (oldest + youngest sisters), Scapegoat (me - middle child) + raaging Narcissistic older middle sister. Not-so-ironically - I became a PhD Psychologist - but never really woke up to the DEEP trauma-bonds of DYSfunction until I was in my own relationship with a Narcissist through COVID = what an eye-opener wake-up-call that was! Boy, did he emulate very clear characteristics of my verbally/emotionally punitive/abusive/shaming "poor" (Covert Narc) Irish mother, and my holier-than-thou/could-do-NO-wrong Malignant Narc father (*not to mention the characterological traits of my flying-monkey DYSregulated sisters!)....Like many post-COVID (*even as a seasoned Psychologist 20 years in field!) I, too, had to fall down the DEEP rabbit hole of learning about Narcissism + Scapegoating, as if for the very first time! I truly believe immigrants (*Irish & Italian) carry DEEP intergenerational traumatization + narcissistic wounding that they pass on to their poor unsuspecting off-spring. I am now FREE from my family (no-contact for several years) and finally celebrating beauty-full PEACE in my spirit as if for the very first time! GOD IS GOOD🙏🕊🙏 THANK YOU again for your very kind & informative words = GOD BLESS!🙏❤️🙏

@C-eq1tj

Ай бұрын

I started praying for you as I read your comment. As a psychologist, you’ve spent a lot of time studying and helping others. Lots of Empathy for others. It is time now for empathy and healing for yourself. May God bring complete wholeness and new beauty to your life. 💐

Huge shame self-attacks resounds in me! Thank you for your honesty in bringing all this out, Mary. I do identify. ♥

After growing up feeling like "the lowest of the low" I now understand "I'm the best thing that ever came out of that bloodline and THEY are all beneath me." It's a wonderful place to get to and I believe we can all get there. 💙

The dynamic with my ex family is my ex Dad hated I was his biological daughter and favoured his stepdaughter, together they thrive and gossip on my trauma and are determined to isolate me from any support. She has my ex Dad and now she's working on my brothers especially my big brother who I'm close with, so went no contact 2 years ago but it's looking like with lose my big brother now too because they won't stop until I have no one. I've started to withdraw from him now in preparation for the hurt that is coming. It's horrible even no contact they still try and destroy you further. I wish wasn't biologically related but it isn't my fault that I am and she's more than welcome to a toxic tyrant "Father" who is obsessed with her not in a fatherly way either it's quite disturbing.

@Theowlhawk

Ай бұрын

I can relate, my father always seemed more comfortable with his other partners daughters, I always felt on the sideline, outsider, like the little match stick girl, left out in the cold.( in the gutter) He is much older now and he made contact recently. I am aware that I am grieving for a father I never had. He is how he is..... It's him, it's not me. I realise that now.

@sarad154

Ай бұрын

Thank you so much for your reply I've read it quite a few times because it's such a relief to find people that know EXACTLY how this feels..but I'm so sorry you do and beaming much love and understanding to you, we are worthy and deserve love and happiness ❤ ​@C12341

@sarad154

Ай бұрын

​@@TheowlhawkIt is them, they are sick but even typing it out I've been so hard wired to believe I am the problem, unloveable, unworthy, a bad person, a bad child all because dared to go up against him, he is the head of the family and totally destroyed our family by bring a prostitute home and marrying her a day our mother left, she died so it's her daughter he's obsessed with because she looks like her it's all very weird but normalised in the family, and he hates I'm his biological daughter maybe because of my mother aswell. He is sick and wish could not be tied to him even through biology. Sorry you have gone through this type of thing too because it is so hurtful and insideous ❤️

Thanks for sharing this. I cried so much during this video. It is amazing that you saved yourself out of that and also thanks for giving me the courage to escape out of this bullying family of mine.

You are wonderful at explaining the elements and have helped me understand a great deal over the past two year period.

@scapegoatchildrecovery

Ай бұрын

@@mildredbangtree thank you ☺️

It always breaks my heart to hear how you were treated, Mary, but it is so, so useful and I always get great insights from your talks. I had an instance recently when I felt flooded with shame and I realised that I was absolutely fed up with having that feeling, lol. Of course, as a child I was the only one who was expected not to interrupt and had to be ultra polite, whereas my sisters could be as rude and impolite as they liked, so it meant great difficulty in expressing my views or speaking up for myself. It sort of followed me into adulthood and so-called friends have had the same attitude with me if I dared to have a different view from the others. I've stopped the people pleasing now, which is a relief, but it still sometimes makes me feel guilty! Much love, Mary, and a big thanks for sharing your insights and experience. :)

Oh boy i het shame hangovers too, over small inconsequential things. Maybe a joke landed badly, or i talked just a bit too much (not even verbal diarrhoea, just a bit too much) but i could still get a shame attack the next day!

My comment has disappeared. Here i go again. Being from the same side of the same city as you're from, Mary, l totally relate. I can see and hear the scene. Then they say 'ah shure, we're only slagging' as if that makes everything okay. I hear you.

@scapegoatchildrecovery

Ай бұрын

@@user-du7te9et5j thank you. Yes ‘harmless slagging’ - they are minimising what it is - psychological torture and pathological abuse. They lack empathy and have zero intention to stop abusing others. (KZread sometimes automatically hides comments)

Thank you so much Mary. I noticed that people who are extremely into the behavior of scapegoating do not moderate or show self monitoring on a psychological behavioral level. I hope that those who are culturally submerged into the role of survivors are consciously making good decisions and experiencing their own fulfilling lives.

My family scapegoated me . My sister's daughter OD'd, her husband shot his brains out and her son was just murdered 😮 This is a very serious crime that can end very very tragically. I'm mind blown, it's horrible.

Sad how we just end up unconsciously radiating shame in a variety of ways and wonder often at our isolation. It is a foul thing, for sure. it is difficult also to be scapegoat in the filial setting and then have this compounded by bullying in a child's community, school etc... once made a target at home having the sense of self destroyed or decimated how easy it is to become one for sadists or exploiters in the broader world. I do wish there was some way of reaching children in this vulnerable situation. If only I understood just a little of what was going at the time, how these unconscious scapegoat mechanisms function in a heavily shame-based society, how much future suffering I might have been spared.

My family bullied me for years, then I just stopped talking to them. I still have lots and lots of shame but I'm now in therapy finally. I am so sorry that you had to deal with that awful bullying. Thank you for your deep dive into childhood trauma and sharing your own personal experiences. You genuinely seem like such a sweet lady. *virtual hugs* ❤❤❤

You described, in such intimate detail, what I experienced growing up. To listen to you tell your story and bring to light to this insidious way of growing up was enlightening, allowing me to gain a sense of freedom from the feeling of shame. Thank you so much.

Shame... Oh, wow, where to start? The anxiety and stress of living in that dysfunctional environment caused me to develop OCD as a young adolescent. My father witnessed one of my odd OCD 'rituals' and had great fun telling everyone about it. All my friends and family were regaled with details of my behaviour with great glee, and it was utterly mortifying and deeply damaging.

@scapegoatchildrecovery

Ай бұрын

@@kitbenson8078 that is sooooo horrific 😰😰😰 so sorry 😞

It is so hard, 69 years now and I have let go and it is a bit lonely to leave your roots behind, but peaceful.

Mary, thank you for once again opening up your past and using it as a teaching example. This was especially hard to watch. It hit too close to home. You are not alone. And WTF on the "your too sensitive" gaslighting? If we look at that behavior, the bullying we experienced and ask, "Would they have done this to their boss at work? A teacher at school? A banker from whom they were trying to get a loan? Anyone else outside the family?" The answer is most likely, "No." Why? Because deep down, they know this is wrong. And they wouldn't get away with it under normal circumstances. We can feel shame and internalize all the things they have said and done, and make a voice in our head telling us we will never be good enough. Or we can take another approach and be angry, because we did not deserve to be treated this way. And along with that comes intense grief that these people bullying us were supposed to be safe.

This was my childhood. Even down to the singsong mocking of a nickname. I could never have a thing and enjoy it. Not even myself. He caught me slinking off somewhere to enjoy a pocket full of anything that made me happy, he'd take it and destroy it somehow. Even psychological concepts such as identity and worth. Sometimes as children will do, I'd sit with a group and discuss what superpower we'd wish fir. Mine was always a split between teleportation and invisibility. I often prayed at night to wake up in a life where those powers were real. I hated being seen and cornered, and now, looking back on that poor helpless child I feel like the greatest crime was that they took me away from myself by the constant gaslighting. No one was on my side...not even myself. There was no myself, whenever I caught myself trying to be one, I crushed it with my internal critic. I'm so sorry, Mary. You and I deserved so much better. I appreciate how you've turned it around and are helping others now. That's a courageous walk through life. My way through has been art. I create my art and every moment of that process is defying and denying the abuse and the shame. It says, look at me. I am here. I am visible. And when I am gone, these pieces are always here. Exising. Taking up space. Not hiding. Speaking my message. There is nothing better to prove to me that I'm regaining myself than that. Thx for your content. It truly helps me maintain my momentum.

Mary you are such a beautiful soul. You have taken the burden that was placed on very young shoulders and turned it into a gift for the world. So much of your story resonates with me. The sense of being baffled as to why you were singled out for such cruel treatment by those whose sole purpose was to protect you. I’m a grandmother now and I pour love into my grandchildren and this knowledge of the power we have to do good or harm reinforces my bafflement at how people - grown adults - can be so intentionally cruel, and how that cruelty stays with you for life. In my case this knowledge wasn’t available when I was young, and I replicated those circumstances in the partner I chose and the family he brought with him. I’m still trying to recover. People like you ❤ are an essential part of that recovery. Bless you and may you live in peace 🙏

I relate to this and appreciate your transparency and vulnerability.

I'm not sure that giving you a pet name was a healthy thing for your friend to do anyway. Its like she threw your identity away and invented a person as her pet. My daughter's in-laws are narcs. They bully their younger son really badly. They gave him a baby pet name and make every one use it even though he's a grown, married man. Its called infantilisation. He's not allowed to grow up or leave. Just evil. They give me the total creeps.

Gaslighting ourselves comes from our crushed hearts…..self doubt and an attitude that everyone else is right and I must be wrong

Something my father and his flying monkeys love doing too me mocking, bullying, gaslighting, shaming, malicious intent, making me question everything, putting me through isolation, making me not feel good enough, depressed, having trauma, told I'm paranoid, too sensitive, just imagining things, crazy.

Thank you. Your support feels ❤❤❤

I have similar experience with this. I am aware that my family is not cognizant of what they have done but I nevertheless cut them off. Just got sick and tired of being the better person in order to maintain contact. The final blow was when my brothers wife abused me while I was at my fathers deathbed. I had enough to deal with watching my abusive father die and she just jumped right in and antagonized me right then and there. Absolutely excruciating for the first few months but I have come a long way since. It was right to sever ties from my family.

@sandramcelrea1842

29 күн бұрын

Brave woman! Bravo

@Ibelieveinathingcalledlove

29 күн бұрын

@@sandramcelrea1842 thank you

So disgusting what your family did to you. Thank you for sharing🌼.

I’m so sorry you were bullied so much too 😢 It’s so insidious. Our fathers were very similar. I’m so sorry again ❤

I relate. And there’s no where to “go” as a child in this family set-up. Anywhere in the ‘family building’ was open to the bullying of the child.

I just so relate with this. Its "spot on".

“Lowest of the low”: yes, as a child and before I “opened my eyes” so to speak, I frequently used the metaphor of feeling like I was “wasting” the oxygen which would be better spent on a more deserving person , not me.

I relate to everything you say. I'm amazed at your ability to express the many different elements of this kind of abuse and to be able to become employed by using your experience to help others. I haven't been able to become employed in a long-term way due to my strange ways of being that reveal themselves in the presence of others. I don't feel safe with others. However, you give me hope. I'd love to know more about where you began in your healing - what type of therapy, etc., started the healing process. Thank you for this video.

I hope your family watch these videos and get an idea of their appauling treatment of you

@bogifabian1

Ай бұрын

Exactly! They watch us from afar, especially if we do something publicly; they always watch. I know how this feels, and I'm gathering the courage to overcome it. 🍀

@scapegoatchildrecovery

Ай бұрын

@@joblogs4001 they would just laugh & take the p)ss out of it

@user-du7te9et5j

Ай бұрын

Being from the same side of the office the same city as you're from, Mary, just let's say I totally relate. I can almost see and hear the jibes. And then they dismiss their own horrible behaviour as 'ah, sure, we're only slagging you'. As if that fixes everything. It doesn't, though, does it? Kudos to you. You're a brave woman for sharing that.

@SusanaXpeace2u

Ай бұрын

I wonder about the families' reactions to youtubers experiences. If it were my family, they'd be rolling their eyes at my drama, so self-indulgent, so detached from reality, so sensitive blah blah blah. And they would 100% believe that they were perfect and I was spinning myself into victimhood on youtube. There wouldn't be a tiny part of them that would ever self-reflect. Mu mother is perfect, so I must be crazy, and no amount of youtube videos or subscribers would change their perception of me!@

@Joanthebrightone

Ай бұрын

They will never change. Let them have each other now.

Thank you so much! I relate to so much of what you are talking about. I don't feel alone now.

Thank you for sharing ❤

Thank you Mary, your videos are so helpful and comforting. They help make sense out of the painful craziness.

Very useful self help video. Thnx for sharing

Also experience being excluded, the narcissist love using favortism on me.

How do you define the difference between fear and shame?

A person who participates in that behind closed doors is it possible for them to aquire a satisfying rewarding life?

@scapegoatchildrecovery

Ай бұрын

@@angelavore6705 you would have to ask them directly. They usually don’t have empathy so don’t feel regret guilt or shame. They are usually grandiose and delusional and feel entitled to abuse children

@user56gghtf

Ай бұрын

I can't speak for them but having access to older ones. They have no fulfillment. They keep doing the same things up until their death because they do not self reflect therefore they never learn. They are empty shells.

Hi Mary I find your Yourtoub podcast very good, as I have experienced the same, but if I put up boundaries the abuse increases, if I questioned their behaving, I was told nonthing ever happened, If I wanted to change the family, I was isolated or made bade by other family members or friends, till today I am the problem, and they never include me or care about my feelings, so I needed support too understand this toxic family system.

Thankyou you remind me why I need to continue on my path away from the cult. I'm in a back-forth scenario that is now having a knock on effect to my own children. It's incredibly hard to walk and keep walking away. Any advice for that?

@scapegoatchildrecovery

29 күн бұрын

@@TheEllemelon Healing from the trauma bonding and energetic contracts, doing the inner child work/ inner reparenting work, identifying and clearing limiting beliefs, doing the necessary complex grief work❤️‍🩹….. all things we cover in depth in the Scapegoat Child Recovery Program (membership) www.marytoolan.com/scr-membership

Do they ever react to your videos Mary? I can imagine my mother believing i had found a back slapping btigade. Omg 😢

What’s your birth order in the Family, if I may ask? As the youngest child w larger age differences w siblings, your content resonates w me.

Go mary😂😂😂😂

Mary, a narrower and broader question about this topic - I know so many first generation Irish women in the uk who recognise what you are talking about, we also see it going on still ....we ask oursleves is there a prticular flavour to this abuse, an inter- generational aspect, as well as the invidual cruelty within our Irish family of origin? Especially given the hideous stories of the Magadalene Laundries - the obvious example, but we all know 'lesser crimes'. I'm not enamoured with the idea of shame being described as 'lower vibrational energy' - it becomes another thing ( a new age one?) we can beat ourselves up with, forever condemned to attract its frequency.

@scapegoatchildrecovery

29 күн бұрын

@@Agameda1 it’s not country specific. It’s the same abuse worldwide.

@Agameda1

29 күн бұрын

@@scapegoatchildrecovery I agree it's universal. I guess given the shared culture it can seem particularly like that, with it's own twists. At least we're talking about it I suppose

people have fake friends

Girl, the ONLY shame you should feel is shame of your family! For having psychologically abandoned and abused you! You do not want to go back to that! God picked you as the chosen one in your family! The scapegoat in a family is the one who resembles Christ the most! In the Bible it says that your enemies will come from your own household! Accept that! He is separating you now so that when you leave this planet your ties to them will be cut. They're going somewhere else! You will have paid whatever karmic debt you had in this lifetime and they will have accumulated some more. Wish them luck!