Thanks for having me along Elliot! I'd never back down from an opportunity to question the Sydney Sydney Sydney Metro Airport Metro Airport Western Line Airport Line 😛

@RAM_845

4 ай бұрын

Another neat collab. I remember years ago, the original plan was to extend the Leppington line to St Mary's that would've been cheaper. Also neat collab with @BigJayDogAdventures he has awesome drone footages. Along with @ColinDobson.

@electro_sykes

4 ай бұрын

Maybe Sydney should start coding the names of lines, like M1 as the City and Northwest, M2 as the West and M3 as the western sydney airport. Just like how our trains are T and Ferries are F and light rail are L

Good video! However, the counter-argument to this is that Western Sydney International is designed to serve Sydney's vast and growing western suburbs - not to serve the CBD and inner suburbs, which are already well served by Kingsford Smith, and will continue to be so. Therefore, it makes sense to improve links to the western suburbs via St Marys rather than to build yet another radial route to the CBD.

@jack2453

4 ай бұрын

No reason it can't do both.

@davidpickford.

2 ай бұрын

@@jack2453 In the future maybe, but the priority should be to first link a Western Sydney Airport with you guessed it, Western Sydney. There's not much need for a direct rail line between the 2 Airports as most travelers will be flying to and from one airport the amount of people transferring would be small.

Hi Sharath. Good to see you have finally come around to the right conclusion on extending the Leppington line. And btw there is nothing wrong with building railways 'in the middle of nowhere' i.e. before the development. That's what they did in the mid 20c, the East Hills and Bankstown lines were built across greenfields - now they are amazing assets.

A short-sighted suggestion to extend the heavy rail line to the new aiport. People forget that pretty much everyone travels with luggage - so double decker is not really appropriate - so it's better to wait a decade or two for all the metro lines to connect up to the WS airport line.

@BarzulRei

4 ай бұрын

My first thought hen he mentioned the heavy rail, even though it would be better for longer trips. I think they should have prioritised connecting the new airport to the city form the get go, tbh.

@garethjd78

4 ай бұрын

@@BarzulRei - airport rail isn't really a priority. In the meantime, car parks, buses and Uber will fill the gap. The airport will increase it's capacity over time - so I think they have a decade to work on connecting the metro lines to it.

@BarzulRei

4 ай бұрын

That doesn't help for population growth in the areas they want it to grow, they should be building for the people and not wait for the people to come after as we already have examples of the government not building amenities beforehand and it becoming a problem. I believe we should be building all new areas to be as little car focused as possible, which also includes buses as they, in my opinion, should be for short connecting journeys (last mile type journeys) not journeys into the city, long ways away@@garethjd78

@staryoshi06

4 ай бұрын

it's certainly a weird situation. from my understanding they want to extend the bankstown metro to liverpool and then to the western sydney airport. and then back up to schofields and tallawong, forming a loop. hopefully they can fast track that plan.

@garethjd78

4 ай бұрын

@@staryoshi06 understandable when you look at the backlash Melbourne's SRL has gotten. Sydney realised it's better not to promise anything as you'll just face years of NIMBYism and outrage about the cost.

I respectfully question and suggest a few things: . (1) The WSI Mini-Metro (it's only 3 cars with provision for 4) is not just 'for the airport', but a catalyst for development and employment right up the middle of the Western Sydney core - that is already happening at its northern end (take a drive along Mamre Road). Have a look at Google earth on satellite view and see where it is, right in the middle of the big, open, fairly flat area from up around Richmond to down past Camden (far bigger than the area of 'Harbour Sydney, squeezed between Kuringai Chase and Royal National Parks). (2) It's not 'in the middle of nowhere', but in the space between the two main population 'fingers' of Western Sydney (out to Penrith, and down past Camden). The population centre of Sydney is already much closer to Parramatta than it is to Central Station or Circular Quay. - Paradigm shift warning!! - Western Sydney is a city in its own right; that just happens to be near old Harbour Sydney. The latter increasingly depends on the former for industry and employment, not the other way around. (3) Sure Western Sydney transport should enable connections with the other (lesser populated) parts of Sydney, but ultimately it should be about transport WITHIN Western Sydney. Most adults who live in Western Sydney already work in Western Sydney. Sure some commute to the Harbour City or northern or eastern suburbs, but that is increasingly a minority choice, not a majority necessity. The idea that You have to go "into Sydney" to get "good jobs" is old fashioned nonsense. The point is to create even more of a whole spectrum of jobs in Western Sydney. (4) The WSI Metro has a different capacity profile from the other metros. That's why the trains are shorter. Classic metros are meant to run as separate entities, not get all linked up so that a problem with one affects others (one of the acknowledged weaknesses of the Sydney Trains system). (5) Transfers between WSI and Mascot (KSA) airports are unlikely to be all that common. KSA will continue to operate and most travellers will have the option of flying into it if they want to connect to another flight that only goes from there. (6) Everything should be 1500v DC ! - 1500v DC overhead power is a venerable system, and was THE MODERN choice in the 1920s. Most places were on third (or four) rail systems, yet Sydney and Melbourne took the leap. That is no longer true, which is why Perth, Brisbane and Adelaide use 25v AC. It has numerous advantages that translate into cheaper operations. We should be taking any opportunity to introduce it, and ultimately convert existing lines to it when it is economic. You certainly will not have long distance, high speed trains running on 1500v DC. Looking for precedents?? - India converted old systems to 25vAC in 2012 to 2016. (7) The WSI Metro will have different loading (not rail) gauge - Nothing unusual there, NSW country trains and most of Bradfield's Sydney city trains have subtly different loading gauges. The latter is so that 5 abreast seating is comfortably possible. It's one of the reasons why most Sydney suburban trains won't fit through country tunnels such as in the west Blue Mountains. (8) I suspect WSI Metro and the North West Metro will meet at Quakers Hill, but not JOIN. That's to keep them separate for resilience of operation and differences in required capacity. It's not because they will be at different voltages (modern technology can already cope with that, if needed). Can make it cross-platform exchange, and link with trains to Richmond (on tracks crossing above or below. (9) The long length of the NW-City-SW metro is potentially a weakness. If it fails at one point, all of it could fail. However, I'm currently satisfied that with more than one stabling area, and several places where there are crossovers (enabling sections of the line to still keep operating if there is a problem somewhere), it may be quite resilient. (10) There are a few options for the 'Glenfield connection'. (a) The cheapest is the conversion of Leppington (already four platforms) into a cross-platform Metro to Train exchange. That also implies some T8 services should originate at Leppington (only South and Cumberland services currently do) - (b) The most flexible is having that exchange at Glenfield (described in other posts) - (c) The old fashioned crave a SW Link Sydney Trains line to the Airport, but I doubt it's all that cheap - bigger tunnels under the second runway area, much bigger station boxes for 8 cars, not 24 hour, limited in capacity by competing line traffic, probably only 4 TPH service, so only every 15 mins instead of every few minutes, limited luggage space on double deckers, etc. There is a 4th option - Metro/Train exchange at Leppington with the Sydney Trains SW Link extending south to Oran Park etc (but I haven't heard of any advocates of that.) (11) The current WSI airport construction already has space provision for another set of tracks (such as for a Metro coming in from Westmead). My guess is the most likely arrangement in the longer term is one line will continue through to Glenfield, and the other will go to Oran Park/Narellan/MacArthur, with maybe a cross-platform exchange just south of Bradfield at Bringelly. (12) If I had my way we would have had a 25v AC regional and interstate terminus at the airport running south (The 'rail gods' never made a commandment saying all Country and Interstate trains to "Sydney" must originate at Central - especially in a world where most of Sydney's population are in the West. But, nobody seems to have joined the ideas of 'HSR' and 'airport connection' together like they have in numerous Asian and European nations..

@harrygoldun5779

4 ай бұрын

Phew, that was some detailed assessment, you should be working in transport planning!!

@tacitdionysus3220

4 ай бұрын

Ha. Thanks, but no thanks!@@harrygoldun5779

The other thing about the lack of heavy rail links to the new airport is that, because of its lack of curfew and its proximity to massive distribution warehouses, a great deal of its business will be FREIGHT. The place is going to be buried under B Doubles.

I agree with the Heavy Rail into WSA extending it from Leppington, that way the Westies still have their Metro Train to St Marys and everything Westie and also for Travellers, a service back to KSA (Mascot) International, Domestic and eventually Sydney CBD.

I think extending the Leppington rail link is a good idea because I’m too lazy to change trains at Glenfield 😂

What a pity that you can't get into state politics for a few years. I could get political here because I have my own conspiracy theories regarding the issues mentioned here. I have been hearing about this airport for 50 years and your solution regarding heavy rail links is the best so far. I think this video should be sent to Jo Haylen for consideration and I would be interested to hear her response. Great video, well done 👏 👍

@tsetstransport

4 ай бұрын

Good idea John, maybe I could email her team! Thanks for watching! :)

@aussiejohn5835

4 ай бұрын

@@tsetstransport Not maybe but definitely and for no other reason than to let her know what can be achieved if she listens to the people who will be using and paying for it into the far distant future. You have a solution to a problem that has been floating around for more than 50 years and they still can't get it right.

@murraykitson1436

4 ай бұрын

HERE , HERE !!! 👍👍👍👍👍. What could be more obvious ?

Considering the Airport Metro line runs through a greenfield area it's surprising how much is underground. Could have saved a lot of money and had a mostly surface railway.

@BarzulRei

4 ай бұрын

I am in favour of it being underground, sure it would cost more money, but that frees up space for more housing or businesses, especially as Sydney is fast running out of space to expand, and allow for businesses and/or homes to be built on top of the train stations e.g. Tokyo (if the government had even thought of that). I would also mention that not having noise and light pollution would be a boon to those living near the line and the environment.

@davidpickford.

2 ай бұрын

It's called planning for the future, Making it underground now will show it's benefit in the next 10-15 years.

@BarzulRei

2 ай бұрын

@@davidpickford. 100% agree mate, Too bad everybody in government is only thinking of the now, or at best the medium term

Great video and collab guys 😍😍

The airport line needs to be a loop which connects both the western and south western line, connecting the two airports with the city. The airport won't be way out as the growth is west. They aren't building the airport to serve Sydney as it is now but as it will be. In the future, it will be Mascot which will be out of the way from where Sydney's major growth will be. Also, there is a railway corridor which could be use for a VFT(Melbourne to Brisbane) stopping only at the Western Sydney Airport in the Sydney region before moving north via the Newcastle region.

Great collab, interesting takes on the subject.

@tsetstransport

4 ай бұрын

Thanks heaps! :)

Another good story, there getting better and better with every new story. Keep going. And totally cool with Sharath's appearance .

Great video! Very informative!

I unfortunately won’t be using the new Western Sydney Airport/Airport Metro line once both open. Being from Campbelltown it would take 4 trains to get there, compared to a direct train from Campbelltown to Kingsford Smith Airport.

@waltercoslovi6404

4 ай бұрын

I live at Kirrawee, and for me to get there it would be a round trip to Redfern then St Mary's and then the Metro to the Western Sydney Airport, what a hassle, I thought an extension from Leppington would be great, just catch a train to Wolli Creek and transfer to the T8

@julianlee4803

4 ай бұрын

@@waltercoslovi6404 the most direct route for me would be Campbelltown to Glenfield, Glenfield to Granville, Granville to St Mary’s then St Mary’s to the new Airport. Could cut one train off and make it a longer trip going Campbelltown to Central, Central to St Mary’s, then St Mary’s to the new Airport, but that Campbelltown to Central leg goes past the existing airport so might aswell go there.

@RasputinReborn-vz7jw

3 ай бұрын

It's even more absurd for Liverpool. According to Trip Planner: By Train. Liverpool - Mascot Fastest route is 49 minutes with 2 trains. Liverpool - St Marys Fastest route is 59 minutes with 2 trains. So it's going to take 10 minutes extra to get halfway to an airport located 18km's from Liverpool Station then a station 28km's away.

@davidpickford.

2 ай бұрын

I'm from the Campbelltown area too and it's ridiculous how it will be easier for us to get to Kingsford Smith (1 train) as opposed to the new western Sydney airport. Apparently there's meant to be a rapid bus service to the new airport from ,Penrith, Liverpool and Campbelltown but we'll see how that goes.

What makes more sense is to extend the north west metro to St Marys. That will allow people in the north west growth area direct access to WSA. No doubt a direct line to the south will be built at some future date.

Hang on, I thought that the T2/5 was supposed to be extended from Leppington and there's provision for that in the stabling yard. It's only what a missing 10-11 km of track?

They are not using a different track gauge on the Sydney Metro West and the Western Sydney International Airport, they are just using a different power supply.

@tsetstransport

4 ай бұрын

Was supposed to take that out of the video sorry, please ignore that! :)

@mark123655

4 ай бұрын

You unfortunately quickly lose people with obvious factual errors like that.

@tsetstransport

4 ай бұрын

@@mark123655It’s a very minor mistake far into the video, I’m sure it’s not going to crash the entire performance of this video…

I've always thought there was something wrong with the airport link. I hope it was not planned by the same people that designed the Rozelle interchange.

@aimee916

4 ай бұрын

Do you honestly think the engineers that build automated Metro systems also design road interchanges?

@ironbark88

4 ай бұрын

​@@aimee916 ​@aimee916 No, but their companies do, or at least big engineering companies often have similar design philosophies. Besides my tongue was firmly in my cheek when I made the comment. Seriously though I genuinely fear that if the design of the Rozelle interchange was made overseas then they were trained in traffic management for conditions different to Australia's.

You guys keep assuming everyone will want to go to the Eastern Harbour City. Yet the whole of Sydney plan is to make the Western Parklands city and the Central River City the places where people live, work and play, independent of the overcrowded old city. That is the long term future, and we want long term planning thinking. Try to take this into account more.

Can’t wait for them to build around it and then people complain about the airport noise

Great video

One of the major reasons for building the airport in western sydney is 24 hour usage, why would you build a city around it?

What people always talk about is the lack of connection to the Sydney CBD...WSA is primarily an airport for Western Sydney, not just for people to go and see the Opera House.

@tsetstransport

4 ай бұрын

It’s not about people going to see the opera house from western Sydney, rather a connection for those who may need to catch a domestic or international flight from the existing airport. The need for some sort of connection to Kingsford Smith airport is crucial.

@theparks6541

4 ай бұрын

@@tsetstransport I agree that WSA needs all the connections it can get. However these types of multi-airport connections just do not happen, case in point if you try to book a Heathrow then gatwick multi flight connection on Skyscanner or whatever, there will be big red text warning you of what you’re about to book. Plus both airports in Sydney will be international and domestic so one can xfer in the same airport. I guess it will be up to the passenger to book what is best for them at the end of the day.

@jack2453

4 ай бұрын

Be honest. The car obsessed Western Sydney residents will drive to WSA. The only people who will use the trains are incoming visitors and the despised inner city types.

@davidpickford.

2 ай бұрын

@@jack2453 I wouldn't say people out west are car obsessed it's just a necessity out here. Western Sydney is huge stretching from Campbelltown to Richmond population centers are far apart and public transport is no where as well covered compared to living within 20kms of the cbd

From the North shore it will take NEARLY 2HRS HARDLY CONVINENT

@davidpickford.

2 ай бұрын

No offence but the new airport isn't being built for people who live in the north shore or anyone living near the Sydney cbd. It is being built for Western Sydney and it's growing population. Why would you not just continue to use Kingsford Smith?

Needs more maps showing the proposed routes for us non Sydney people.

There was crazy traffic on the T1 and other services 😩😩

I didn't know there was a different gauge. I thought all Sydney (NSW) rail (metro & Heavy) was standard gauge. It's like we are going back to the 1800s' with different gauges again. 😞 But yes, heavy rail to the western Sydney airport and continue the metro through to Campbelltown via Oran Park etc. so as to get potential customers of the airport from ALL areas of western Sydney before more housing/apartments are built.

@tsetstransport

4 ай бұрын

Thanks for watching! That mention of the track gauge was a mistake, I was supposed to take that out of the video. The track gauge will be the same as existing rail lines. :)

@AussieDave04

4 ай бұрын

@@tsetstransport phew, I thought "oh no, here we go again", but thank you for the clarification. 🙂

@ronvorbach1464

4 ай бұрын

I think you may find that in time all Sydney trains will be this type with no wages to pay it keeps the operational costs down. Although the driverless trains computer control is what they call airgap it can still be hacked and we would be at the wishes of an evil hacker. That is why I personally prefer to have drivers at the controls. Alas I am not a greedy politician .

@anthonywalsh2164

4 ай бұрын

Loading gauge difference would be the best way to put it.

@kenoliver8913

4 ай бұрын

@@anthonywalsh2164 Yeah, not the width between the tracks but the maximum height and width of the carriages. Loading gauge incompatibility is about as difficult to work around as track gauge ones - platforms at the wrong distance, tunnels too small, not enough clearance between passing trains, etc.

4:17 IMO, Airport Bus Links Kinda Suck, for the simple reason that Airline Passengers will typically have luggage with them. From small carry-on bags to large rolling suitcases, that luggage will consume limited space inside the vehicle. That is much less of an issue on a train.

Government short sightness, so sad Best Regards Andrew

Nice vid

The need for connections between the two airports isnt there. WSI will start as a freight, and ocassional domestic flight airport.. maybe a few back of clock international LCC ops. Remeber Stage 1 has a capacity smaller than Adelaide. It's not a Narita / Haneda split where most international flights will be one, and domestic the other.. the projections have very little need for transfers between the two airports. And a connection to St.Marys provides easy access to the dense Penrith-Parramatta core that makes up most of the Western suburbs population density. It would have been better to go to Schofields/ Tallawong to add the North West (and provide an outer North-South connector) but i suspect that can be handled by buses for many years. Remember it took 40 odd years for the original Sydney Airport to get a train connection.

@kyletopfer7818

4 ай бұрын

There was already plans for a train line through the Southern Suburbs to the airport in the 1940s Cumberland County Transport Plan though, they just screwed around not building anything then ripped out the tram network, closed the second track pair over the Harbour Bridge into Wynyard, and stuffed up the Eastern Suburbs Line.

@BarzulRei

4 ай бұрын

Ahh that makes sense why the connection is not a priority if it is mostly freight.

lol great video

Any Western Metro Connection at Westmead connecting to city. Is NOW unlikely as the Premier Fixing the housing crisis. by using the proposed alignment for a series of multiple High rise [tall] apartments with deep basements at Westmead. So the original connecting Stub tunnels are now truncated .So the future connections into rest of Western Sydney are effectively GONE!

My god. It's not about the the damn inner city it's about an airport for the west, you know where most of the people are and how it's still growing.

There’s no need to transfer between airports which is why it’s designed that way!!!

@Cotote

4 ай бұрын

Please explain?

@tsetstransport

4 ай бұрын

The need for connections between the both airports are crucial. Imagine people who have never been to Sydney before who come in at the Western Sydney airport and then need to catch a connecting flight at Kingsford Smith but there’s no direct link? See the problem?

@mark123655

4 ай бұрын

The numbers will be tiny. Compare for example, who books a flight into LAX (75m pax/yr) and then a domestic connection from John Wayne/SMA (11m). Equally no-one (sensible) would fly into MEL and book a flight from AVV. They are the kind of scale differences that will exist between SYD and WSI for 20+ years. By the time WSI gets big enough then Metro West will likely have been extended from Westmead to the Airport filling the second set of platforms in the airport design, and you'll also have a connection to Liverpool and Campbeltown

@Cotote

4 ай бұрын

@@mark123655 if we build it, they will book. It just makes things so much more convenient. I can imagine some people will fly into Syd from new zealand and then want to fly out from wsi to Singapore to save money

If you want to go into the Sydney CBD you'd just fly into Mascot wouldn't you? Am i missing something?

@jack2453

4 ай бұрын

People will fly where their preferred airline or their budget will take them.

@crazyprayingmantis5596

4 ай бұрын

@@jack2453 People will fly where they want to go. Why would you fly to Western Sydney if you want to visit the Opera house?

@jack2453

4 ай бұрын

@@crazyprayingmantis5596 Because that is where the cheaper airlines will go.

@davidpickford.

2 ай бұрын

Not necessarily, depending on availability of flights and price will determine the airport. In saying that Australia is so far to get to for a lot travelers around the world I'm sure if you can do 12-24 hours in transit then an extra hour and a half on the trains isn't going to kill you.

Isn't the whole point of having a western sydney airport that it services the ever growing part of the city that is too far away from kingsford smith? We don't need a rail extension or one would have already have been built.

@RasputinReborn-vz7jw

3 ай бұрын

Except all the biggest growth is in the South West, Not the West. By blocking access from the south west your forcing people "Too Far" from Kingsford smith to continue to use it.

A heavy rail train trip from Western Sydney Airport to International Airport (kingsford-Smith) would take 45 minutes stopping All Stations to Revesby, then Wolli Creek, then International Airport. Central would take an additional ten minutes and Circular Quay an additional five minutes on top of that.

While I think they should link Leppington to the new airport via extending the T5/T2 I disagree with your reasoning that it should be done for people transferring between airports. The amount of people flying to Sydney and transferring flights between the airports will be such a small number, the real benefit would be to people in the Campbelltown and Liverpool areas who will have to do a massive inconvenient loop to reach the new airport via the planned metro.

Not related to the Metro! Well kinda! Until you take a train to St Mary’s or you take your car it takes 1 HOUR and MORE ON TRAIN! from the Sydney CBD!! By the way the airport will be a hassle for pilots to land due to there always having fog in the morning! They probably should’ve built it somewhere a bit closer to the Sydney CBD. Maybe if it’s possible. I doubt the government put much thought into where to place the airport by all these key factors! Great video by the way criticising the Western Sydney Airport line. Probably will be a Ghost train! 😂

@daveg2104

4 ай бұрын

All the other airport options were a similar distance or further away, and some would have worse fog problems. Galston-Dural was an option going back to at least the early 70s, but as the land wasn't purchased at the time, it is much less of a greenfield site than Badgerys. You can decide for yourself how much politics also played into this in later times. And I doubt they could get away with extending Sydney Airport further into Botany Bay. Bankstown Airport is too small, so they would have to purchase and remove a lot of housing and industrial areas to make it practical. To me, the only other option would be the Central Coast/Hunter region, with a high speed rail service to Sydney. I'm not too sure how popular that would be with people flying to Sydney though.

@ThatMetroGuy

4 ай бұрын

@@daveg2104 I guess your right. I’ll probably do more research about it. :)

Outside Heathrow, London’s other airports are far worse located.

@tsetstransport

4 ай бұрын

Yes I have seen several takes on that online before.

@jack2453

4 ай бұрын

Not really. Gatwick is half hour direct train from Victoria. London City is on the Docklands Railway. Luton has just built a people mover so the train access is easy.

@michaelcobbin

4 ай бұрын

@@jack2453 what about Luton?

@jack2453

4 ай бұрын

@@michaelcobbin There is a regular fast train service from St Pancras - and the annoying bus trip from the train to the terminal has now been replaced by a people mover so not bad.

@michaelcobbin

4 ай бұрын

@@jack2453 For Sydney, the longer-term is to have Metro West extended to WSA and the South West Link connected with WSA. So the connection to WSA should be fine.

For my generation what you say makes sense but due to my age . Alas for you younger people and the generations to come this will grow and be such a wonderful place. Sure ,with taking on such an enormous undertaking will have some errors but look at the long term . What you see now is paid for with tax payers money. When all is operational the improvements will be paid for with profits and in time taxes from those profits will repay the tax office 100 times over and over. Only a stroke of nature or a major war can stop this from happening now.

@BarzulRei

4 ай бұрын

True, unless they privatise it, just for a quick buck, which I would never put it past them to.

@ronvorbach1464

4 ай бұрын

They have tried selling it off so many times but no one wants to buy as it has never had a profit.@@BarzulRei

What a dog's breakfast. not only is the metro to the airport operating on a different power voltage, its now going to be operating on a different track gauge, "WTF" For god sake whats next, there will be no seats or it will be fitted out with bean bags. Its time for some common sense to take over, start building a heavy rail from Leppington to the airport & on to St Mary's, as it was planned over twenty years ago, delete the Metro all together, why is TfNSW introducing non standardise metro's, whats this nonsense, a different type of Metro for every day of the week, this is sort of nonsense that existed in England over hundred years ago with its rail network. The one of many things I learnt when working in the rail industry from 1964 to 2005 is, non standardisation cost a fortune to maintain & operate, as it was in the NSW RAILWAY'S & all its other names it had over that time, talk about history repeating its self.

@tsetstransport

4 ай бұрын

I agree with you. I actually made a mistake with the track guage, the guage will be the same as all other lines, I just forgot to take it out of the video. :)

@afs5609

4 ай бұрын

@@tsetstransport thank god, I was expecting it was going to be 5' 3" as in Victoria or metre gauge.