I'm nearly 78, I'm never going to be a pro photographer, but I love your videos! And I understand them too. You're a pretty damn good communicator, and I know about that...

Excellent. Thank you, Scott. I have watched this 3 times and taken notes. Thank you as well to the people that have commented - all good advice. Food for thought...

I use a couple of pricing methods. I use essentially the method given in the video. The second method is I will ask the customer straight out what is their budget for a project and tell them if I can do it at that price. If the price is less that what is my cost/profit threshold is, then I don't take the job and walk away if they can't meet my requirements. When sussing out a custom, I do my research and avoid asking questions I don't already know the answer too.

I found that instead of just trying to increase my rates it was easier to just change my deliverables, so I've reduced the number of photos I deliver significantly from when I started photography and was practically giving sending out everything. It also allows room for people who actually do have more money to spend as they often have no problem paying more for additional photos.

@gregorylagrange

7 ай бұрын

Part of pricing higher (or at the ceiling) is that it helps eliminate customers that will be flaky about following through. Either by trying to negotiate after the fact. Giving hard luck stories about not being able to afford you and how you should lower your prices, yet they don't go to other people who do offer lower prices. Or by being extra procrastinating about giving payment. That's something that people don't consider about avoiding the urge of pricing themselves lower as a way of attracting customers. As long as you can make quality products, don't be afraid to price your work towards the upper end because across industries, from prostitution to retail, it helps you deal with better customers.

@AmaraARW

7 ай бұрын

@@gregorylagrange I think you have a misunderstanding about my pricing. It's not about lowering or keeping my prices low, I've been increasing them over time, but it's about how photographers can still make more money while keeping your price at the ceiling.

@gregorylagrange

7 ай бұрын

@@AmaraARW I wasn't talking about you specifically. I was talking about the tendency for people who are starting out or considering starting to default to using lower pricing as a way to get started. They do it out of fear when as long as they are able to produce good enough work, they should have the confidence to set prices higher and stand on that. Because they will end up better off because one of the good things about not being afraid to set your prices higher is that you'll deal with better customers. You specifically came to a different way of structuring what you delivered. But as you said, it has aided you in dealing with the kind of people who were willing to pay more to get more. Not the same thing as I was talking about but within the realm.

I think what you're saying is 100% true but you're also also saying we need to start with the answer to the question already. How do we find out what the going rates for things are?

@MariusViken

7 ай бұрын

Ask.

@ChrisWhittenMusic

7 ай бұрын

It’s a good question. You can’t ask the client, that looks unprofessional.

@ThierryGibralta

7 ай бұрын

Research your competitors, in your niche and your area. That will give you a range.

@christiansantiagophotography

7 ай бұрын

@@ThierryGibralta do your competitors reveal their pricing to you? Mine def don’t.

@ThierryGibralta

7 ай бұрын

@@christiansantiagophotography if they have a website usually there is a range for their service (of course it depends on your niche)

For me it was simple; I asked the photography club I belong to what the industry standards are and they gave me a sheet of paper with recommended prices, and used that as a baseline for my price structure.

Sooooo the next question - HOW do you figure out what the ceiling is in your market?

@judahtownsend2195

7 ай бұрын

@@mdhazeldine So far (I'm pretty new getting into commercial work) I haven't had a client actually tell me their budget and haven't yet found a photographer in my area willing to talk about how they charge. So like you said, trial and error is all I've been able to do. I thought maybe I was doing something wrong but I guess that's just kind of how it goes when you're first trying to establish your business. Thank you for the help!

@TonyHogrefe

7 ай бұрын

Rather than ask “what is your budget?” because few folks will want to give you that number because they’d rather come in under it, I ask, “what are you hoping to spend on this project?” What they’re hoping to spend is less than their budget, but it is also less than they’re willing to pay.

@judahtownsend2195

7 ай бұрын

@@TonyHogrefe This seems like a great suggestion. Thank you for taking the time to make it! Whenever they give you that number, do you typically just give an estimate that's a certain figure about it? Like 20% or 30% above? Or is it kind of just a feel/instinct thing?

@TonyHogrefe

7 ай бұрын

@@judahtownsend2195 if their answer is higher than my target, I accept it. I’m earning more than I anticipated, and the client feels like they got a great bargain. If it is below my target, I’ll counter with my target and will not go more than 10% below my target. If their answer is half or less than half of my target, I just tell them I can’t do it for less than my target and let it go at that because that person either cannot afford me or they’re gonna make the job a pain in the ass by requesting a bunch of add ons after negotiations are settled. Mind you, this is based on my personal experiences, and the fact that I have other income streams that allow me to turn down as many jobs as I please.

@steveh8658

7 ай бұрын

@@judahtownsend2195 Nice try! No, you provide what you think is a service level that fits their budget. Offer a few options of additional services or more images or better lighting or whatever to see if that stretches their budget. They may be okay with that, or not, but at least you were able to provide a service for their budget that YOU are happy with.

My full time day job is a corporate pricing analyst and I use the same techniques to price my photo/video work as well as my other side hustle. For 99% of the people in this industry doing some market research, knowing industry rates, and your value proposition will be the primary determining factors to your pricing.

This is really sound advise, but my problem is that i have no idea how to find out what the sealing is in my market. What did you do to find out what other photographers were charching? I would love to see that video. Thanks for all your amazing info. Keep it up Scott :)

As a market with low entry barriers and no clear price signals, it is very difficult not to end up in a race to the bottom. Whether you calculate your price backwards, which is somehow a value based pricing approach, or you do a standard bottom up calculation to come up with a quote. For my area I find some additional pricing ideas by checking the price recommendations of the industry associations. In the end you also need some luck in finding the right customers in your market.

There is another related dynamic at work and I have experienced it. The rate you charge tells people what level of quality you think you provide. I also write and sell thrillers on Amazon. The cluster of most volume sales is at $5 for an eBook and the platforms try to get you to participate in 50% off sales and you make no money. Last year I increased my price to $9-15 which i s what the best sellers charge. I increased my volume of sales and tripled my revenue. How you are perceived is as much about your pricing as it is about your product. Want to be seen as a top tier player? Charge as much as the market will stand. Its better to do three $2000 weddings than five $750 weddings. Otherwise you work harder for less money. It takes courage and patience. It takes guts to say to a client, "I'm not sure you could afford someone like me." They might just stretch to you in the hope they get a better product.

I think an important part of pricing, at least for commercial photographers is usage. A lot of times you make more off usage rights than photography.

Excellent advice. The Market rate for my studio hire is capped despite being well-equipped, clean, and tidy. With my photography, I am capped also but give 100% knowing that I may enter another bracket at some point

Thank you! How to figure out the ceiling in my nische...? Especially if you are starting this business.

@qamstel

7 ай бұрын

If you are just starting out I would definitely not aim for the ceiling. I would aim to get at least 10 gigs under my belt so I can have the confidence of asking for the ceiling price. It’s seems like a cop out answer probably but I’m sure that after some experience you will have the needed understanding on how much effort you put in and what you can and want to charge. If the ceiling is not satisfactory for you then you can decide to pivot. My opinion though. Best of luck 😊

Always great info! A little late for me, but still great.

Such a clear and concise explanation!

These days, working out what the ceiling is the hard part. I see wedding shooters ranging from £350 (yes, £350) to £3K in my area and in my circles. I see studio portrait shooters ranging from £60 to £600. I've tried my prices below the ceiling, above the ceiling, and at the ceiling. The whole thing always just feels like trying to get the right person to see your website\profile. I've bee thinking of just jacking it for a few years now but cant let go of all the effort I've put in....you just never know whats round the corner, do you.

Great points, thanks again for your video sir.

I was only put in that situation once. Took a wild guess and I think it hit the ceiling. What the market will bear is correct. Quality of work and ceiling are key. Not understanding these things kills most businesses.

Great counsel!

I stick with value based pricing and I exclusively work with clients who do not want to work with an agency. If I match with a client who is losing money because their campaigns aren't sticking, then I find what they need to stick, make it happen and get the value of what I provided as payment. So if they stand to make an increase of 250/week more or 250,000/year more, that's what the pay factor is based on. They feel it very worth it because of the value being put right there on the table during consultation.

So now you phone a heap of photographers within your area that specialise in your niche, pretend you wish to hire them and find out their prices, its dirty, its sneaky but its the only way to find out what the competition is charging... personally i felt very uncomfortably and hated doing this, but if you are unsure what to charge it gives you the answer.

@ViewportPlaythrough

7 ай бұрын

done this several times, thing about it is if the other side is experienced enough, they more or less could feel it... would do it again though if needed. you do what needs to be done. (and yes, maybe im just bad at doing it 😅)

@vladimir-qt5bl

4 ай бұрын

Agreed. This feels horrible to me, I hate knowing that I'm wasting hard working people's time

Great advise, many people have the skill of photography but not the business sense, we get too creative and excited about creativity. This video breaks it down well.

Awesome advice

This is fascinating. Coming from the software industry where the range of what people can charge is far less anchored, this is a different way of thinking about the pricing structure. I am curious about how to find out those ranges for different genres. I suppose I could dig around on Reddit or something but that doesn’t sound fun. 😅

I remember the first time telling a potential client that my paparazzi photobooth was $250 an hour with a 2 hour minimum.... was really hard to keep a straight face (my part-time day job at the time in Montana paid $8/hr). Once you do this a few times, you start to have confidence that your rate is too low, then you realize the best clients are non profits who actually deserve a slightly better rate than wedding gigs and refine your model to fit the environment.

Not sure about the differences in the UK vs the US where I am but I have found the budgets to be completely all over the place, and confusing. I've been a heavy editorial and occasionaly (trying to do more commercial now) photographer for over 20 years. In editorial they would either have their day rates, or they'd have a project rate, the usage was limited and clear, and it was fairly easy to manage. I am now trying to build my commercial arm, and negotiations and inquiries go nowhere, on year I had 45 inquiries outside of one client and none of them materialized. I've done estimates for monthlong shoots with many talent in multiple locations on multiple continents, sets, studio elements, on sight weather effects etc, that might come out to 750k or 1M and the client comes back that they have a max of 100k for the shoot. The most recent job I turned down was 10k to shoot 75 environmental portraits in one day because I didn't think it was possible to do the job well. I always ask for a ballpark figure, sometimes it's doable most of the time it's not. In the US every company in my experience is trying to get away from doing usage and instead they want "work for hire" which means that the company owns the entirety of the shoot outright forever, you hand over all raw files and never see them again, and I retain no rights to the images. I am curious what people would charge per day for that sort of work? I've been paid by Apple 12k (fee + usage) for work for hire and they have been my most steady commercial client, but other people want the number to be closer to 5k a day. I'd prefer 15 if i am being honest to hand everything over. Anyways that's been my experience and currently trying to figure out how to navigate these new waters, I've been rep'd twice in the past but currently on my own as my last rep wasn't a good fit.

@Todayyespresentno

4 ай бұрын

I was advised to charge 20x day rate for "work for hire" clients.

Love your videos, thank you for this topic. I am very new to charging for my work. I spent months & months hanging out at WEC in Ocala asking people can I photography your horse I give you an image. This was my training ground. Back in Oct. 2023 I said that's it no more freebees. My first client was in in Nov. 2023 in IL for $700, plus they flew me up there & gave me room / board / a loaner car. The second was to other party, to me going to IL that was one hour $600 plus 3 $200 each. I have learned a lot from your videos, Thank you I am at this moment working on price for my first corporate client. Yep flying by the set of me paints.

I started making the transition into professional photography in 2010, and began at a base rate of triple my hourly wage of my other career ($25 USD). So an hour portrait session was $75 while an 8-hour wedding was $600 as a second shooter, or $1200 as a primary (another 8-hours to edit the photos). I did this because of taxes and I was brand new. I adjusted my rates as I got more projects under my belt. Went through another career change in 2020 and now I do photo/video projects on a case-by-case basis (essentially it has to interest me).

@ViewportPlaythrough

7 ай бұрын

sir, im leaning more to following your mindset about pricing(triple your hourly rate than your other career), but your numbers seems to be too high for my side of the globe. i am a little confuse where your prices sits. may i ask hows the average price of photography businesses around your area so i could have a clearer context about your figures? (for context, a prenup session here on my side of the globe is more or less around 145 usd only, given that they are the low class businesses and not the mid or high end ones. my personal opinion about it is that their prices are too low and unsustainable, so i am looking for tips from those who successfully sustained the businesses on a higher price point but still book clients

@DCuerpoJr

7 ай бұрын

​@@ViewportPlaythrough I live in Seattle, WA, USA where the average price for a 1-hour portrait session ranges from $100 to $300 USD. The price of photographing a wedding ranges from $1,000 to $3,500 USD. You may find prices way above this range, but those are typically from photographers that are often featured in publications or offer more services such as filming, photo booths and larger productions. If the prices are too low and unsustainable for your lifestyle, then you may need to have a side career or move to another city with better business opportunities.

How do you know what the market will bear?

Looking forward to this! Love the big picture, realism you provide in your videos. No fluff, just honesty

Yea the problem is and has always been pricing is hidden and there’s no way to know “ what the market will bear” without some type of guidance, which doesn’t exist. Maybe this is clearer at the commercial level you’re at, though you are in the minority.

@NicoleTruly

7 ай бұрын

It’s not clear unless you are close with a bunch of other photographers who don’t gatekeep, or agency producers…

Man, this is so true. I’ve watched so many people have to fold up shop after 18-24 months by having the “if you build they will come”, mentality. Business is all about building it AFTER they come and figuring out creative ways to span the gap in the meantime while you wait to scale up. That’s scrappy entrepreneurship

@ViewportPlaythrough

7 ай бұрын

hi, im trying to learn the business side and can you please expand about what you said? is that another way of saying "say yes first, figure out how to do it later"?

@SamLucas26

7 ай бұрын

⁠@@ViewportPlaythrough I mostly mean that business is about generating as much revenue from as little input as possible (this is an over generalization but it’s a decent rule of thumb). I watch a lot of people spend a lot of money up front thinking that if they have the gear, the studio, the branding, the website, the “fill in the blank” all looking top notch, that it will attract clients to cover the cost. When in reality the smarter business move is to find the cheapest route to produce professional results (professional being a sliding scale relative to market, competition, client, etc.) and finding out creative ways to level up your work and product while using “lesser equipment” or working out of a home studio for another year rather than getting a dedicated studio space, or driving a $20,000 car instead of a $30,000 car, renting gear instead of buying. If you can keep expenses as lean as possible for as long as possible, while continuing to increase the quality you’re producing and only spend money when it’s truly necessary, you increase your odds of longevity and success in your business exponentially

@tron23058

6 ай бұрын

@@ViewportPlaythrough Not sure what Sam means. Sounds like he's around a lot of failed businesses. I think it all depends on the business. Most businesses need a runway of cash to get off the ground. You need to know the market in your area to know if customers will pay for your goods or services, try to take off, and pivot price/service when needed. I take what youtubers say with a grain of salt.

You know, for a long time I've often thought I've been making my pricing too complicated. I charge $125 an hour but it's broken into four different categories based on what I'm doing. Maybe I should simplify it and just do a day rate

Heres how i do it (full time starving artist, house and garage events) i charge 275 for 6-8 hours but depending on the client but if i don't really like the sound im 300-350 and when ive been stuck ive charged 250 but never lower keep it within a 20percent bracket

How do you know what the ceiling is for each market level?

How do you find what the market will bear in a photographer's local area?

Would've added an asterisks to the Annie Leibowitz example. If the people you take pictures of are famous, you charge a great deal more.

I’m at an early stage client wise but right now I’m frustrated with the leads that I’ve got so far. I try to put a fair price where I can cover the business expense and earn something for myself and unfortunately I just get ghosted. Not a decline, not a “you’re expensive” or “we found someone cheaper”. Which leaves me guessing, if I’m on the right path or not. I know I need to keep putting more effort in reaching out, marketing my business and put more work out there, but as of now I feel discouraged to keep going. I think I’ll just go back to the drawing board and think about 2024.

@steveh8658

7 ай бұрын

How soon are you getting clients to the stage of giving them your pricing? Are you able to create an emotional connection (in a business sense) before giving them your price? Are you able to find out their budget before giving your price. There are ways to do all those things.

@ViewportPlaythrough

7 ай бұрын

@@steveh8658 hi, i know the rule "who says the price first loses" but how "soon" should you tell you clients your prices? also, dont you need to give them context first so they could know how they would answer your "how much is your budget" question? im planning to do the "our previous clients typically spends ____" tactic, would that be enough? thankyou in advance ^_^

@steveh8658

7 ай бұрын

@@ViewportPlaythrough Hi. You can give them a range of typical prices you charge for certain levels of service with the kind of brief they've just sent you. That way you are basically letting them know that you can cater to most budgets, but that there is a minimum spend, and that they have choices with you. It's up to them. Win win. The sooner they tell you their budget, the sooner you can get on with helping them get what they want at the price they're willing to spend. Does that make sense?

the thing is , most photographers are not shooting stuff for big company , that will have 10k budget for one photo , that will be display in magazine ,bilbord ,social , most company/restaurant /coffee will want a photo for social or flyer , and most will not go to the trouble to get a photographer , they will just download some image from stock photo sites or photograph them with phone , and thows that have constant need for photo will have a photographer in staff , can not be like ,,yee i will need 1000euro to photograph you pizza ,, most will like yee i give you 20 and free pizza ,