heres my powerscale 1- no rats, not even in the colors that could play rats 2- no rats, but in colors that COULD play rats 3- one rat, probably a throw away/combo extender or whatever not there for being a rat 4- one rat but like you really like the rat and he tends to be more of a mascot on the field 5- 2 to 9 rats its not a big part of the deck but you got a couple of rats in there, look how cute they are! 6- 10ish rats give or take a few more like 5 but on average bit more rats 7- average 15 rats but no swarmland or the "rat orges" of the piper 8- average 15 rats but with the "human package" mentioned above 9- ONLY RATS AND LANDS HOW MANY RATS IS TO MUCH? TRICK QUESTION MORE RATS 10- 3 lands, 1 thrumming stone and 96 relentless rats

@rb4121

3 жыл бұрын

Marrow-Gnawer for the win

@danielthomas1587

3 жыл бұрын

No dark and cabal ritual or black lotus? Amateur XD

@greekPharaoh666

3 жыл бұрын

As a player whose pet deck is my marrow-gnawer deck, i aprove this

@dapperghastmeowregard

3 жыл бұрын

"Turn 2 Lobotomy?" "... Welp." :P

@Feckel523

3 жыл бұрын

@@greekPharaoh666 I feel you, Im a relenless rats with marrow-gnawer as my commander(sometimes I swap out for ink eyes in the 99 cuz oh baby the art from the secret liar drop is just amazing)

I'm not in this video, although I thought I would be. I feel betrayed. Mitch talked about putting better ramp in the precon decks, and instead of me, showed...Talisman of Progress! As of this posting, my lowest TCGPlayer market price is $2.64 for my Modern Masters 2015 printing. I definitely need to be reprinted.

@MrSocrates_

3 жыл бұрын

How dare him!

@GrashUriza

3 жыл бұрын

I think he was showing what not to reprint. Though, yes. You're right about Mitch missing an opportunity to highlight our bobble.

@baloo7869

3 жыл бұрын

They have to reprint you in Commander Legends right? Lol

@RionCaughman

3 жыл бұрын

Username checks out.

when i sit down at the table i make sure to qualify my power level. "yeah this deck is an 8, but with me as the pilot? definitely a 6"

@MrManukenchin

3 жыл бұрын

That's happen

@MrManukenchin

3 жыл бұрын

@Dragon Fist thanks!

@alaraplatt8104

3 жыл бұрын

@Dragon Fist that's definitely a rude way to say that

I remember one day a buddy of mine called me saying his fraternity was hosting a informal magic tournament and everybody could invite one acquaintance. When asked on what format he was like: "Whaddaya mean format? We'll all just bring our best decks and see how far each get." When I arrived, I once again asked around about format or any card restrictions, there was only one: no power-9. Back in the days I was a competitive legacy player, whose favorite deck was literally banned only weeks ago(UBG Oath of Druids), so I though well if there's no format, I suppose banned lists don't make sense. So I decided to run with it, even supplanting some wastelands for strip mines and a bunch of other very unLegacy additions which made it stronger, but certainly less legal. I completely and utterly slaughtered everyone by turn 3-5 as if i was just gold fishing, except for this one guy, who happened to run a vintage deck minus the power(and some not Vintage legal additions as well, never seen so many strip mines in play in any game in my life xD). It was however, the 3 most exciting game of the whole evening. He's had pretty much the same experience just steam rolling everyone. We played the finale of course, and everybody was just in complete awe and just watching us battling it out. I won 2 out of 3, and the last victory was a close one. Basically, they invited two competitive players to what turned out a slightly above casual(what did they call it...'focussed'?) style tournament. The two of us played cards that outpriced people's whole decks with ease, but were a pretty good match up to each other. Where I was going with my story: winning is fun but only if the other guy has a chance at winning as well, otherwise the victories feel empty and sore. Sure it's fun the first time, but by the 3rd guy I was getting what level was played in this group and i actually started feeling sorry for them(and he was playing mono green elves too...so 0 answers to an t2 Akroma, i was like, sorry dude). I ended up giving away half my prizes(they were just boosters), as it felt completely unfair and certainly not as much fun as winning everything in a real tournament.

- Low: If you feel the need to ask if someone has a deck as weak as yours (Nissa tribal, random cards I had at home). - Mid: If you feel comfortable bringing the deck to most tables (upgraded precons, most well built decks with budget restrictions or fun non optimal inclusions). - High: If you feel the need to ask an unknown playgroup whether their decks are as powerful as yours (optimized decks with little budget restrictions or decks with a very strong wincon). - Cedh: You wouldn't play this in a non competitive table. Should work as an approach for unknown playgroups. Most important thing is to be sincere and willing to switch decks. If you trust the people you play with try switching decks with each other.

@mn6334

3 жыл бұрын

To me this sounds better than any number scale. From what I'm reading here any two divisions that are next to each other could play against each other and have fun but the lower section deck(s) would probably not expect to win unless everything went right for them.

@hbpuppet

3 жыл бұрын

This

@Hitzel

3 жыл бұрын

I posted almost this exact post on r/EDH a few days ago, can't tell if it's catching on or I'm not the only person who thinks this way, but regardless I'm happy to see it making the rounds lol.

@nanoacido5174

3 жыл бұрын

@@Hitzel Its your idea. I loved it. Once you know a little about your local meta is so much intuitive than a 10 number ranking

@Hitzel

3 жыл бұрын

@@nanoacido5174 ayy thanks, keep preaching lol

I'm currently brewing on "love matters". Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis at the head, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Anax and Kymede, True Love's Kiss, Kiss of the Amesha, Cathartic Reunion, Run Away Together, Lovestruck Beast, Beloved Princess, Beloved Chaplain, Squees Embrace and so on. I'd realy like to play against Chair Tribal at some point. x)

@NightOfCrystals

Жыл бұрын

The deck sounds awesome!!

Scale I generally use: 0 - Literal pile of cards 1 - Pure jank, theme is more important than winning 2 - Jank with a plan, has some synergy but theme still more important than doing anything 3 - Weak unmodified precon 4 - Typical unmodified precon 5 - Strong unmodified precon OR precon with fixed mana base 6 - Precon with fixed mana base AND extraneous cards swapped out. Also focused home brew decks. Below average win rate, can’t reliably hit their victory plan. 7 - Optimized home brew deck. Average win rate. Has a defined victory plan and can reliably hit it. May use a suboptimal Commander for the deck’s strategy. 8 - Highly optimized home brew deck. Above average win rate. Has one or more combo finishers and can reliably hit them. Uses the best, optimal Commander for their deck’s strategy. 9 - Tier 2 cEDH 10 - Tier 1 cEDH

@Jay15199

3 жыл бұрын

One of the many reasons I prefer cEDH. I always know what to expect power-level wise.

@koelkast9

3 жыл бұрын

People asked me if my sisay was cedh. Because their only table rule was 'no cedh decks' i told them no because my deck's mana curve is too high and it doesn't run enough interaction. Turn 1 land, mox diamond, mana crypt, wheel of fortune... go

@koelkast9

3 жыл бұрын

@@thetogtube2 yeah its as close as it gets to cedh. I keep interaction out of it because i prefer big flashy plays

@mark1A100

3 жыл бұрын

How is that different then the regular scale

@mathieudewulf8607

3 жыл бұрын

Good description, next question: combo's only allowed in 9 and 10? Cause that is another issue... Some people have a problem with it, other don't. Cause it's not because your deck has a combo line that you are automatically at cedh level.

I'm currently listening, but EDHREC had a similar topic recently. One of their biggest points was: the bell curve is too steep. Basically, there basically are no decks that are 1 or 2, hardly any decks at 9 or 10, so 80% of decks are 6-8. It is impossible to accurately determine a powerlevel with so few options in such a huge sample size. Rating decks not with numbers, but with descriptors would be a step to alleviate some of that.

@anselally4408

3 жыл бұрын

I Just like to say on average around which turn I could win.

@TenSuns1914

3 жыл бұрын

Very good response.

@jameswilson4328

3 жыл бұрын

@@anselally4408 I think that's a fine metric if you play a combo oriented deck, but what if your deck only has one or two combos and/or generally wins through creature combat? What if you play Stax (like a monster)? Would you say you win when you lock out 90% of spells, or do you have to win the game? What if you get routinely disrupted? The idea that a deck consistently wins on turn 4-6, is assuming you are playing in a vacuum.

@mark1A100

3 жыл бұрын

I mean wouldn't the better solution just be to use better numbers. Why have do we continue to set precons at 5? For current precons that basically means that if you are focusing your deck on less then 3 strategies your usually better then a precon since they usually try and build a little around the sub commanders. If we set precons at 3 basically playable then the remaining 4,5,6,7,8 actually become a usable range.

@Winterhe4rt

3 жыл бұрын

@@mark1A100 Setting precons at 5 is singlehandedly the most stupid thing you can do. I wish this podcast had actually put some thoughts into this before recording it.

Commander is a ridiculous format. I’m so glad to be a part of it!

@Bigballa-po3fm

3 жыл бұрын

Same

@therenxiii2629

3 жыл бұрын

I'm just getting into it and I'm having so much fun with it already

@miscellaneousgoblin910

3 жыл бұрын

@TherenXIII awesome, isn’t it?

@therenxiii2629

3 жыл бұрын

@@miscellaneousgoblin910 I'm loving it, I'm actually currently trying to build a thematic eldrazi deck with Golas as the commander with a little extra challenge of making every card either true colorless or Devoid

@miscellaneousgoblin910

3 жыл бұрын

@TherenXIII nice!

There is also an issue with pilot skill level and pilot attitude. A new player will usually lose to an experienced player-assuming even luck. There are some gamers I absolutely hate playing against because of personal interactions. Sometimes power level is not the main factor in having a fun, fair game.

@catrinahultberg6418

3 жыл бұрын

This is very true. I have some friends who I love to play commander with even though I probably have a player skill of 4-5 and my decks are about the same power level because I prefer thematic builds and I know their optimized 7-8 power level decks are going to stomp me every time. They are just great people. Then there are some who are closer to my skill but are other players who are moody and abrasive win or lose who I would rather avoid even though their decks and/or skill levels are closer to my own so I could conceivably win. I prefer to lose and have a great time.

I agree with the Jank, Casual, Focused, Optimised, cEDH categories and that’s it. The numbers confuse things because as you say most decks are 5-8. It’s easier to have precons as casual. And Focused as the lower end of being better than precons and Optimised the higher end. Trying to pin it down more specific than that is a big old mess.

@Myrdin90

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah I'm dissapointed that they didn't go more in dept about wht the numbers meant, and that they didn't show any decks below a 5

Cool! Boros is too good, right? That would make more sense. Simic is underpowered!

@alexsmythe6815

3 жыл бұрын

edited my message so you will never know why these children got so mad :)

@hrevans83

3 жыл бұрын

Alex Smythe it was a joke

@borosman720

3 жыл бұрын

@@hrevans83 Correct!

@borosman720

3 жыл бұрын

@@alexsmythe6815 uh... winota... zirda...

@hrevans83

3 жыл бұрын

boros man aggro is awesome

The fact that we put pre-cons at 5 is...problematic. If we put pre-cons at 5 and cEDH at 9-10, then that makes the actual range of decks in the 6-8 range. There is too much range in between pre-con and cEDH for this range to be useful. Realistically, we should look for the "average" deck to be a 5. That means pre-cons should be in the 2-4 range depending on upgrades & power level of the pre-con, with "worse than pre-con" being 1-2. This would make the scale actually useful. Then again, most people would still misevaluate soooo...

I describe almost all my decks as 'Casual/Focused'. There's normally core mechanics, synergies and goals like a focused deck, but also features lots of fun easter eggs/showcases/stories that people often point out either hinder or are inefficient in the deck. I personally think these are the best kind of decks. For example, my budget Karametra Enchantments deck (£50 budget) plays the Gods and their associated cards: Karametra; Dictate of Karametra; Karametra's Blessing; Karametra's Acolyte; Karametra's Favour Heliod God of the Sun; Dictate of Heliod; Spear of Heliod Nylea God of the Hunt; Nylea Keen Eyed; Bow of Nylea; Nylea's Forerunner; Nylea's Presence I also run Font of Fertility as a budget version of Wayfarer's Bauble...

@SiegfriedDrachentoeter

10 ай бұрын

A bit late to the party here, but thats also how I build my decks. If there are similar versions of a card, I always take the one that comes from the same set/block as my commander even if its worse than some alternatives.

I would list Pre-con decks at about a 2-3 on average. So saying that my deck is better than a pre-con but not c-edh provides a huge gap that it falls in.

@gary6631

2 жыл бұрын

Pre-cons are the dominant decks in my playgroup. The 2 people that have them just smash everyone else. The rest of us are too stubborn to go buy a precon for the cards lol.

Hey Mitch! I'm really glad that content creators like you are striving to discuss and further create a healthier Commander community. You do a lot for this community, sir. I want to suggest you to open discussion on another topic which is threat assessment since i've seen a lot of people have doubts or problems with that. Thank you again, and keep it going. Greetings from Mexico City!

The solution is for someone to create a EDH scouter that automatically gages the power level of a deck. But not from just 1-10. It needs to go from 1 to 10,000 so if you come across a really strong deck you can say when someone asks you what its power level is, "Its over 9000!"

Good episode guys. I also feel that an open and honest discussion about what kind of deck each person is running. In my old playgroup before I sold my physical cards, we had a general rule that we wouldn't allow more than two of each style unless it is agreed by the table. We generally categorized it something like this: aggro, beats, combo, disruption, heavy control, stall/stax, voltron, and sacrifice. So we wouldn't end up with three aggro decks against one control.

I like the idea Mitch said about starting off with a lower power deck to gauge the table and adjust accordingly.

@andrewkwan4263

3 жыл бұрын

This is exactly what I do when playing with a group I'm not familiar with.

Such a treat for a lazy Sunday morning. Been loving the podcast-like episodes Mitch! I hope you keep em coming!

I’m going to echo several others and say this debate about power level is why I love cEDH. It has a defined meta like Modern and Pioneer, everyone is on a mostly even playing field, and there are few surprises. This constant debate, the tension surrounding new cards, and all of the hurt feelings are why cEDH is going to continue to increase in popularity. I’m all for it.

Ohh man, I've got some 1's and 2's that I'm proud of. You ever see someone pull out crab tribal? Well you'd think it'd be bant because of all the simic crab abominations, but no, I built it in Azorius because I wanted Hannah as the captain with that one art that makes her look like she's getting attacked by crabs. My worst deck, which I'm pretty proud of, is Masako the humorless, and every single white creature that can tap to prevent damage. I sit there and look super impenetrable, taunting the other players who can't touch me, but I can't interact, and one board wipe completely shuts down my board. It's legendary.

For me, I tend to look at a couple of different things when it comes to power level. Tutors are one, especially if it's every tutor you could possibly get in your colors. The other is land base. A deck that has stuff like original duel lands, shock lands, the good fetch lands, and things like gaia's cradle and so forth are just going to play faster and get to Thier win con easier then a deck running basics, tap lands and bounce lands

@Dracomandriuthus

3 жыл бұрын

Tell that to Mitch's Kenrick deck that was archenemy in Extra Turns

That exact problem could be said about the latest "Extra Turn" episode from the Command Zone channel. Where Jesper had a way higher competitive level than the rest of the table's decks.... >.

@keithmcloughlin1335

3 жыл бұрын

as soon as he said thrasios/ tymna...i knew who won...

@eric0967

3 жыл бұрын

jespers deck wasnt cedh. also josh and ashlens decks are major threats they did almost all the damage. josh almost killed jepser on turn 3. if you understand how their decks work. you would not say that. like jesper said josh looked at jespers 3 decks he brought. they had they matched power levels.

@faerie7dragon

3 жыл бұрын

He just had a lot of interaction as well as hatebears to slow or deny plays, the only really high power there is showing how powerful Thrassios, Tymna and Gaea's Craddle can be, personally I was a fan since I love playing Selesnya Hatebears. Adding Blue and Black is just mean. I was a big fan.

@MekanikKommandoh88

3 жыл бұрын

Jimmy and Josh completely threw that game. Focusing on just Ashlen and mostly ignoring Jesper was a huge mistake. Either they were just being nice because he was a guest or they just flat out sucked that game. Anyway, Jesper’s deck would have gotten thrashed at a legit cEDH table, but TNT is obviously good naturally.

Great Episode as always. I feel like this discussion is ever ongoing and just needs to happen before you play. Always worth doing a 5 minutes of quick deck tech talk in order to give you the best shot at 45+ minutes of fun game play.

Thank you Mitch and Ed for using the Rarity pony art :) in your background.

Great video gents. I'd love to hear you guys talk about how to resolve these differences between power levels a little more. Like suggestions on budget ramp/card draw/removal spells in each color to help boost your power level on a budget. Me and my SO play with another couple that are relatively new to commander and I'd love to link them a video that could help them boost their decks up, on a budget. I really liked the studio btw. I can tell you put a lot of hard work into it.

When y'all said "what turn" I immediately thought of my Phenax, God of Deception deck. It can't win in just a few turns, but it has the resources to keep other decks from winning that early either.

Listening to this reminded me of something several players at my LGS that was super fun. Everyone picked 2 commanders, had to be less than 200 decks showing for each commander on EDHRec, they shuffled them up, and each person in a 4 man pod picked 2 of the commanders randomly, and they partnered together even IF they weren't actual partner pairs. Everyone had to throw a deck together under $50 and play it. Talk about some fun jank... and really interesting way to play commander cause some of the decks (taking out the whole non partner partner commander bit) was probably in the 6-7 and/or focused ranged of power, was a pretty fun little experiment! You guys should try something like that Mitch

I've found the command fest scheme was a nice jumping on point. Everyone just took a few minutes to describe what their decks did in broad strokes and how consistent they were. "6. Daxos the returned. Constellation/enchantress nonsense. 1 tutor." A small description after the number seemed to smooth out confusion.

@jakubvondrejc7022

3 жыл бұрын

I think this was probably the best system to appear in a long time. Especially mentioning tutors shows how smooth and linear the deck is

@cteal2018

3 жыл бұрын

Tutors can take a deck from "5" to an "8"

@thomasjensen7393

3 жыл бұрын

@@cteal2018 that particular deck had 1 copy of enlightened tutor and almost no card draw. Deliberatley just a modified precon. It could go off and be insane, but id need to actually topdeck stuff.

I don't avidly play commander but casual kitchen table magic, sometimes commander, planeschase, or house rules. I enjoy the discussion, and I often learn things about the game and or format. I look forward to more close quarters. Keep it up!

That is a great experiment! Probably a great conversation starter for a playgroup. Not useful for out in the wild, but still very cool.

love these discussion theme episodes with the two of you- more please

Here is the system I like. Ask the group if everyone's deck is between a 6-8. Unless there is a precon or a cEDH player at the table everyone says yes. Then you ask "okay so on a scale from 1-10 where 1 is barely a 6 and 10 is possibly a 9 what would your deck be?" I know it looks/sounds little clunky and confusing but most people understand the question and it allows people to say their deck is a 2 without feeling bad about their deck but more importantly the guy who is playing an almost 9 will love to call his deck a 10 and out himself. It works, try it. (disclaimer: it works better then anything else I've tried)

Btw Mitch, isocron septor just got a reprint, you could run the septor dramatic reversal combo in your jhoira deck for 3.75 now.

Your comment about a single game not being a good way to judge a decks overall performance is on point and something I wish my group would understand. I have a Kami of the Crescent Moon deck which is realistically a 5 at best, but I ended up getting some really good draws and winning fairly handily in my first game with it. I don't think it has won a single game since then because of that first impression the deck made; the rest of my group treats it as a 7 or 8 power level threat when most of the time it doesn't really do anything before I'm eliminated.

In my group of friends we use some house rules, that help a lot: 1) Tutor effects are limited, when you search for any card, you look in the first 10 cards. When you search for a type of card (artefact, creature, land), you search in the first 15. When you look for a basic land or a specific card (like the cat that searches for his hammer), then you look into the whole library. 2) Artefact ramp has to be used in the turn next to the amount of mana they produce. That means, Sol Ring cannot be played turns 1 and 2, for example. 3) Mass land destruction is forbidden. Targeted is OK, but no armageddons and similars. It really works in our environment, since makes the format less combo-oriented, and still enjoyable for Timmy/Johnny/Spike, we have the 3 archetypes in our group.

one thing to keep in mind when determining power level is how well your deck runs without interaction, how much interaction you have, how many win cons it has, and how many ways it has to tutor the win cons.

In the video you asked about building cedh on a budget. Just as with most of the commanders you highlight on your channel, there are many ways to go budget depending on what compromises you want to make. I think the cheapest "meta" deck right now is Momir Vig Hackball which bottoms out at 75$ for a deck that can play with 10s but could be labeled an 8 because of the lack of tutors and the fragility of its combo. There are a surprising number of cheap cards that are common in cedh.

I would love to see Eddie's Rashmi deck list, if you could put that into the description that would be awesome :)

That's one reason that I think why cEDH is getting more and more players, in a very slow fashion. We don't have problems with Power Level in a cEDH pod because everyone know what to expect. Ofc there will always be a boogeyman (hello Blue Farm), but no one gets salty.

@eric0967

3 жыл бұрын

@Tommaso Grillo lots of cedh decks are built for around $300 mark. also cedh is alway looking for budget cards to break into the meta. like oakhame instead of dark confidant. and at the end of the day money is not a issue because proxies. cedh players dont play against wallets.

@wobblefoot7607

3 жыл бұрын

Tommaso Grillo most CEDH groups do not care about proxies. Some of us have enough of the right WotC card stock to buy a car but if card stock is the only thing preventing you from playing powerful magic then proxy away.

@eric0967

3 жыл бұрын

discord.gg/WQ7wnPw

@allbadmanners

3 жыл бұрын

@Tommaso Grillo Most of the pieces to godo bandit warlord cedh were just reprinted in double masters. Hammer of Nazahn even being good casually. But essentially it uses helm of the host for infinite combat steps and ramps in mono red for around $50-200 without LED, Wheel of fortune, Underworld breach. You get red rituals and simian spirit guide and treasonous ogre to get godo out ASAP. Jhoira can be cedh. Golos finds boseiju to make an uncounterable ad nauseam which was just reprinted angel's grace is kinda expensive. Dimir+ can run the newly infamous thassa's oracle + demonic consultation.

@allbadmanners

3 жыл бұрын

@Tommaso Grillo what I mean by that is any color pairing that is dimir or contains dimir at least. Could be sultai, esper to even wubrg.

I really like the discussion. Only thing I'd say is for combo decks is you should not be relying on your opponents not knowing what your combos are and should be up front about your win conditions. You don't have to get into the gory details, but I think you should divulge a few key cards such as isochron scepter. This is knowledge that anyone who has played against your deck a few times would have, which is the entire point of describing what your deck does.

I love the little tail wiggle on the piggy bank

I agree that #'s are useful in that 5 is precon, below that is theme > power (and jank at the very end) while the top end (9-10) is cEDH, which 6-8 being where most players have their deck. I feel like this is similar to jank I agree with your system in which most commander players are between precon and cEDH level. However, that's still quite a range to cover. Playing with strangers it's quite difficult to reduce the differences of opinion between 6,7,8 but at least with a playgroup then everyone knows who's deck is at which level. But at least with one game against strangers, you can understand what everyone's idea of what level is what and then play the next games accordingly.

@m.r.r.2636

3 жыл бұрын

I believe this spectrum is too narrow, especially placing precon decks at power level 5 - that's your average deck power slot. I think precons in general are less functional than your average Commander deck. Some Commander precons have definitely been stronger than others but all of them have some amount of filler and incohesion. For the most part I value precons at power level 3 and the 2016 (4 colors) generally at level 4. I'd even go as far as claiming that some of the 2013 (Alara shards) are borderline level 2. Now WotC has been better at piecing precons together over the years, so perhaps the later versions are somewhere between power level 3 and 4 rather than mostly at level 3. If you start your evaluation of precons at lvl 5, there's a lot of room below a precon that is unused. If there's a deck with less power than precon, I would call that jank-to-junk territory. Jank being a wide term here for themed but non-competitive decks (they don't aim to actively win, but rather something else - like Mitch's chair tribal) and junk decks that are incohesive and don't work with itself (a 30% mill strat, 20% tokens and 50% aura Voltron) or decks with atrocious proportions - an average CMC 4+ and 30 lands and no ramp.

@TheCommanderTavern

3 жыл бұрын

@@m.r.r.2636 I can understand your sentiment, but I feel like gauging it as the average is a good starting point since a lot of new players (in particular) don't have a lot of cards to start with and most of their decks are built from what they can make it. So they might not have a solid plan but at least maybe 2-3 different plans within the same color identity. This won't necessarily be as good or bad as a precon, but there are levels beneath precons that aren't total trash or junk - this being one of them. So I do feel like having a buffer that large between total garbage and precon makes way for those decks that are built with the best intentions - decks that aren't total garbage but also not purposefully jank. These are decks that are built to try and win as best they can.

I liked the way you rated Marchesa. I tend to build 7-8 power decks (based on your criteria), but really play them more at a 4-6 power level, depending on the deck and/or the playgroup.

The pre cons this year had great ramp packages. All the signets being included made it super easy to get them upgraded and playing

In our group we have some rules. 1: commander band list is active 2: NO endless combinations. So no cdhrec. 3: proxy allowed till 10-20 cards. To test new commander. Exchange them to real cards within 6 months. 4: turns max 4-5 min. 5: play is for fun so keep it so. I have one rules for my decks. Have at least 10 removal (creature, artifact, enchanment, land, planeswalker) and with blue in the commander also 5-10 counterspells

Weird that EDHRec just did a podcast where they rated precons as 1 on the 1-10 scale. So this just proves how wildly different expectations can be even when you do try to establish a universal grading scale.

@returnoftheduelist9790

3 жыл бұрын

A precon cannot be a 1 because you can actually win with a precon and have fun at a normal table; 1 would be using backstock that fits the colors but doesn’t have a theme like a precon. Id say precon is 3-5 and then upgraded precons go from 4-6 and anything from 6-8 is high tier casual right before cedh aka players trying to make a casual format competitive and kind of missing the whole point of commander format.

I think the best way, in general, to evaluate your opponents decks and your own is how much the deck is worth (not counting special alters or promo arts) like if I'm playing against a deck where the owner is running OG dual lands and several high dollar cards, that deck will inherently be more powerful then a giant tribal deck. Additionally you can ask, like you guys said, how the deck wins. If its a fast combo deck, its inherently going to be more powerful then a voltron build. Ruhan is a great voltron commander. However its not going to win versus, say a t2 or t3 k'rrick combo deck. Anyways, great episode. Many in my LGS have shifted to pauper commanders for casual play. Its been a great challenge to build a deck using only commons thats still competitive in that sense.

My play group often goes by two numbers when comparing decks. 1) Fastest number of turns to win and average number of turns to win. The average is great for balancing, but the fastest is helpful for threats.

I don't know about that statement about Solemn Simulacrum being a 0 in all decks. I'm usually pretty happy to see it in my Feldon of the Third Path opening hand.

Simplify the grading structure; high power, mid, low or cedh as its own powerlevel. Thats been super easy to work around for any random group i found myself in over 4 years

We need to quit thinking a precon is a 5 when really they're a 3 or a 4 at best

@ACertainGuy0

3 жыл бұрын

Precon non-land cards have been going up in recent years, the only thing still at a 3-4 level in precons at this point are land bases and mana rocks.

@williamcarswell3012

3 жыл бұрын

@@ACertainGuy0 wrong the cards themselves are weak out of any precon deck your missing alot of expensive staples which I'm not saying should be included but overall it will hurt the power level of precons and because people make up this lie that a precon is a 5 so my deck must be a 7 because it smashes precons only causes problems because once that person plays against a real 7 they're going to have a bad experience and nobody wants that but if we call the precons what they are which is a 3 then we won't have these problems look up channel fireballs new ways to rank commander decks its actually very accurate and i prefer this list instead of the command zones

@williamcarswell3012

3 жыл бұрын

@@ACertainGuy0 and if you can't afford expensive staples then they need better synergy something that only a player base can do because its hard to look through the perfect card in all of magics history

@returnoftheduelist9790

3 жыл бұрын

Depends heavily on the precon; i have gavi and that was a top precon and aesi is pretty busted for a $25 deck out the box. Others like the morph deck and the boros deck are very weak.

@Myrdin90

3 жыл бұрын

Go play cEDH and leave us casual players alone! Commander has become so much more xompetitive than it used to be and we don't need that

We play with 3 house rulesets to remedy this. A budget level where there are limitations on lands, cost per card and total deck cost. a "precon or precon equivalent" and an unlimited budget. We typically don't play land destruction at any level except a few targetted exceptions.

Power scale is part of the fun of playing Commander, however you definitely make some valid points. I would say that a better approximate metric is a deck's Salt level especially when you're trying to play with friends.

Power level exists in a vacuum. What style (archetype) of decks are at the table (matchups) and who is piloting them also makes a difference in how the game goes and that is something that cannot be quantified. Even CEDH decks can have problems against casual decks instead of stomping them into the ground. You sit down to play carpet of flowers / mystic remora, and no one is playing islands and their ramp is elves / birds... Some decks also change power level based on what's at the table. Lazav DM can punch up against some reanimator decks or Muldrotha style decks, but seems really low powered against decks with weaker creatures or few creatures at all such as the archetypes of enchantress, spellslingers, or artifact combo. I'm sure if you think about it you can come up with many examples both theoretical and anecdotal. Great episode! Keep up the good work.

For one I'd suggest a question of if someone's land base is precon level or optimized. Another thing to ask is how many ways can ur deck win. A deck that wins only through combat or one other win condition is a casual deck. A deck that has 3 plus ways to win, including attacking is on the more powerful side. That being said, there are exceptions like combos in the command zone. Another way to go about it is to put precons at a level of 3. This way u can give that 6-8 more room

Asking about the consistency in the deck is also a huge part of it. decks that can reliably get their wincons without fail vs decks that dont run tutors and play out more naturally can tell you a lot about the problem. Our playgroup rarely uses tutors beyond land grabbing helps keep the shenanigans in line

I would do it based off of combo pieces. What I mean is certian interactions make decks powerful, and every deck has a way to combo. How often can you get those combo pieces out, how many do you, and how well do they synergize.

@cteal2018

3 жыл бұрын

How many tutors can be used for short hand...decks with many tutors can assemble their combos faster, and even reassemble if again if needed to.

i'd like to be able to tell how "focused" are my decks ... i really can't tell if they are 6 or 7 or

@mathieulapierre-armande306

3 жыл бұрын

and what if you're gonna be good enough to pilot a 5 and make it look like an 8 ? or the other way around ? i think that there's a blurry point about the pilot's ability ...

@eric0967

3 жыл бұрын

@@mathieulapierre-armande306 power level is based on deck lists you can tell power by looking at the deck. nothing to do with how it pilots.

@diggerdog9205

3 жыл бұрын

Agree with the pilot skill aspect. With the example of two playing the exact same deck one could make it look like an 8 and the other a 5

@jaywinner328

3 жыл бұрын

@@eric0967 That's true but the usual objective behind accurately narrowing down the power level of decks is to ensure a level playing field for the pod we're about to play. If we all pick decks rated as 6 but 3 players are new and one has 20 years of mtg under their belt, it's clear who's the favorite and by a large margin.

@eric0967

3 жыл бұрын

@@jaywinner328 the lower the power level of the deck the less skill matters in the play group. new player should play at the casual level. they are little to no lines of play in casual decks and mostly just play out your hand. you should still play at the same power level reguadless of skill. it allows the players to adapt to the meta. they wont be new players for long. magic is not hard.

I just slapped a Vito Deck together with cards around the shop (I own a comic/game store so it wasn't hard) it's worth about $100, i know double your budget...but I figured it was a power level 5 or 6. I then went on to win 3 games in a row against deck that my other decks have had troubles with in the past. 2 of the wins early, turn 5 and turn 6. The last game was close but i won with 2 life :) SOOO much synergy.

When playing with others for the first time, I invite them to look through my deck and ask if I can do the same. I ask how many tutors people run (and which ones), what their typical tutor targets are, what kind of hate/interaction they play (if any) and what kind of strategies aren’t fun for them to play against. It takes longer than a 1-10 power scale, but I’ve never had anyone come out of the game after that conversation with any feel bads based purely on deck strength.

I've pulled some silly things, but mostly through luck. Turn 1: badlands, sol ring, boros signet. Turn 2: drop a plains, increasing devotion. Turn 3, cast my commander, jirina kudro and swing for 15. Then drop windbrisk heights for my land. Turn 4, swing with everything, activate windbrisk, play fiery emancipation for 1, deal 63 damage

What happened to the old music? It was iconic lol

I usually just try to find out what turn your deck can do its thing, usually the power of a deck is directly related to how fast it is

I really need to recalculate my Riku of Two Reflections deck. It was a slow but fun 7, Optimized and getting Tuned card draw aggro/combo deck. Then I added a full suite of Kiki-Pod and blew out a playgroup out of nowhere on turn 5 with a Splinter Twin on a Corridor Monitor. Just remember to recheck your decks so you're not making the game unfun for everyone else. Fun for everyone should be the goal below cEDH levels.

This is the comment I posted on the EDHREC video about power level, describing my view on the topic: I do like the idea of explaining what the goal of your deck is (or isn't) before playing when your on the Focus/Optimized group; especially when playing against new players. Here is my take on some of those categories: * Casual * Pre-game discussion tend to matter less as casual deck tends to have less interaction with other decks. I think a bare description of the deck is enough: it's a precon, a design-theme deck (lady's looking left, avenger theme)... That information + the commander should be plenty enough to enjoy a good game. * Focus * Focus deck are deck with a general idea / play-theme (tribal, +1c, superfriend...). They are designed to play a 8-12 turn games; with board-wipes, and way to bounce back from one. Between focus and optimized, this is probably the category which requires the most pre-game talk. If one deck is graveyard base, and it's facing a (mill+graveyard hate) the game is not going to be fun for the graveyard base deck. A good brief description of the deck strategy is very welcome here. Kind of what they do at the beginning of each episode of CommanderVS. If your deck has expensive cards like: Mana Crypt, Mana Drain etc... let you group know about it. I would divide the focus category into the following sub-categories: - First time(s) playing the deck -- Can't really tell how good/bad it's gonna be; you may need time to think about your move... trying a new deck idea... etc... - General focus deck: Not too many cards out of the spectrum of what the deck wants to do; a bit tuned up, but you're not really focusing your effort to make it better... But the deck was play-tested a few times and the strategy is known to work. (This category also includes decks which haven't been updated for the past 2+ years... I.e: not really tuned to the new power-level) - Refined focus deck: Deck you really love, and keep improving, re-tuning it after every game. * Optimized * I except somewhat less talk that in the focus category, rather: what the average power level of your cards? Even an "average cost ( one-mana-land cost excluded )". Optimized decks are refined-focus decks with consistent way to "pop": it could be through infinite loop... self-decking, ... But can also be through fast damage burst style often after a infinite mana-loop. They tend to have fewer board-wipes and more spot-removal, spot interaction to prevent other decks from combo-ing off. This category is for decks with "one-turn win" out of nowhere if not stopped. Two sub-categories: - Fairly optimized: Mostly limited by the cost of cards... built to win. - Highly optimized: The only thing which prevent this deck from being competitive is that commander/theme is not good enough yet to be consider competitive level. * Competitive * Obviously you don't want to mention the goal of your deck granted it's often gonna be quite obvious :D The commander(s) itself(themselves) will define the power level of your deck in that category.

Is there any list for the Rashmi deck? Thanks for the great content :)

9:12 power levels are subjective, commander's quarters. You, this table that knows so much, you decide what's fair and balanced the same way you decide what's budget and what's not.

The worst mismatch of power levels I've experienced was at my LGS. There was this young guy, about 13 or so years old, who just bought a precon so I pulled out my lower deck and the third player knew to play suboptimally with his deck, but the fourth guy played his high power Zacama combo deck and pubstomped all of us. I thought the kid was never going to play again. Thankfully, he kept coming back and the pubstomper more or less stopped coming to our casual games.

I have a tymna ludevic legendary draw creature tribal with only two support cards deck that I always pull out when I dont know the power level since if I am losing at least I will have fun looking at all the cool legends

My friends and I found a great way to figure out how strong a commander deck is and how to adjust its power level: 1. How consistent is your deck in fullfilling its game plan? 2. How fast is your deck in fullfilling its game plan? 3. How quickly does your deck win when fullfilling its gameplan? 4. How easy is it to disrupt your deck's game plan? By using this method, and trying to get everybody on a similiar level, games are usually fairly balanced.

A question I thought of while watching is " how consitent your deck can " pop off"." Like my niv does have the infitinite loop, but i rarely get it, and i usually tend to goof around with drawing which in numerical term would be a 7 to me. An 8 would be that you can consitantly do your combo to win almost every game, and a 6 would be better than a pre con, but with the ability to go off, but it happens less than 7. I like having a game where everyone gets time in the spotlight, if they can, and so knowing how well the deck can go off or get their sweet spot like a big enough field can help with the speed of the player. I even put in a few token spawners so that players wont get bored of me just winning with pinging if we all use the same deck again to mix things up.

People: What's your deck's power level? Me: IT'S OVER 9000!!!

You took all stapples and rate them from 1-3 as 3 as the BEST, then you calculate the number of your stapples and the result and compare with others Also are ment to be stapples not only refered with colors but also the specifics ones of your strategy ( aristócrats= skullsacmp 3) Then you can say i have a power 65 deck Oh i have a 36 points deck lets not waste time :D

I have a very limited playgroup, because we understand that the one aspect of Magic hardly anyone plays, we do: Land destruction. And not just spot removal, either: Me and my brother have cast Armageddon, and one of our friends plays a Jokulhaups in his R/U Superfriends deck.

I like your ranking system. Jank Casual Focused Optimized CEDH

1-10 is way too subjective and means different things to different people. What's important is: -Does your deck run combo wins? -Do you run alternate win conditions? -What mana ramp do you run? -Do you run aether reservoir? -At what turn do you realistically win? -How many counterspells do you run, if any? If everyone answers these questions truthfully, it gives a much better power lvl understanding than just saying a number that means different things to different people.

The best way to make powerlevel clear is to express what commander you want to play, and then establish if it's a non-meta build or not. If it's a meta build, you can give players who are familiar with the deck approximate powerlevel by giving them an idea of what is and isn't in the deck in terms of vicious synergies and such. If it's a non-meta build, figure out what commander would generally run that type of strategy, and then compare to that commander how threatening the deck is. Powerlevel isn't nearly as exact as commander strength in most cases. Superfriends can be done with a lot of different commanders and while the commanders are often different, the powerlevel is very distinct on certain cards (Chain veil? Oath of Teferi? Narset Transcendent? Tamiyo, Field researcher? Doubling Season?) which determines how the deck can win. Making clear what is and isn't present makes a number irrelevant as the player gets a good idea of what you expect the deck to be able to do. But when the commander (Jhoira, Urza, Hapatra, Thrasios, Selvala, Brago, Animar, Teysa to name a few) have a really clear, well defined meta and you're playing within that meta, it's way easier to say "This is Teysa (orzhov scion), but no Darkest hour, no Phyrexian Altar". Done. You now know the player is probably going to do a lot of value nonsense but isn't going to combo off with two cards, so you don't need to pull in an 8+ deck with turn one interaction potential. You explained this concept pretty well when you two were going over Rashmi and Jhoira. Both of you know what Jhoira does when she's on board. The meta is defined. You know how scary just the average Jhoira deck is, so you treat it with due caution and you pull out the interaction deck to slow it down. This is what happens at tables when it's clear what to expect. It's better than saying "7" without great context and hoping your 7 is the same as the rest of the group's 7.

The PlayEDH discord has a document on how to assess if your deck is battlecruiser, mid-power, high-power or cEDH. I found that power level ranking to be the most accurate

I'm going to take a shot at describing my deck, which I built during quarantine so I've barely played and is my first commander deck (but I'm a long time magic and legacy player), before finishing this video and see how close I get. My deck is probably a very optimized 7 or a low 8 maybe. In playing a commander that isnt cedh power level but because I play legacy and like to tune and optimize I have cards or the willingness to pick up the cards I want for my deck. I have several different lines of winning and a good amount of redundancy but I dont run a bunch of tutors or mana crypt. I only run a single tutor. But i have the forces all of the fetches and dual lands and I've gotten most of the important things I need along with a basic suite of mana rocks. The main weakness of my deck is that it's an engine deck so it takes until turn 5 to 8 to start getting out of hand normally. But I have a crazy amount of protection and recursion once I get there and multiple ways to win, only one of which is a true win on the spot combo so there is a lot of decision making. Edit: coming back to it probably just a very strong 7. I will say that I think your wrong about placing a precon at a 5. I think a budget upgraded precon is a 5. A precon kinda sits more at a 4. Basic synergies with a couple stand out cards and not much more. The reason I suggest this is because on a 1-10 scale, 5 should be average. You shouldn't have an average between 6 and 8. The general average strength of the deck that comes to most tables. That should be a 5. Then you have ranges around that to judge in relation to that 5. To me a 5 should be "I bought this precon and got some cheaper cards I like to upgrade it from lists on places like edhrec". Because that's the most of what you'll find. Also my deck is more of a control deck.

I always have to say "semi-competitive " not good enough for cedh and too good for casual

@kazuya6852

3 жыл бұрын

Same. I make my casual playgroup mad. And I get confident thinking I can play the competitive players, and then lose 7/10 times.

Actually there Is a CEDH deck with general tazri good chain around 75 dollars when IT was build i know prices can be different over time, but Its a great deck lot of synergy And i think without interraction it can win turn 2/3 so cedh can be on a budget And i play cedh an im budget player myself. Love the podcast Mitch :)

Lol I love how the first card shown is my favorite commander deck

most of my decks are probably in the 7-8 range. My Arcades, the Strategist deck is probably a 7 as my "fair" deck, being that it has a ton of synergy and plays "big" creatures early that swing once Arcades hits the board, plus I run things like Genesis Wave and Wild Pair along with an infinite mana combo. Also, shout out to Mitch, I consider Zada to be my pet deck and started out as Mitch's $15 deck that has since evolved into a storm combo deck. I still use Soul's Fire as a win con. That card is amazing and by far my favorite win con in the entire deck, that and a weird "infinite" mana combo with Haze of Rage + Aetherflux Reservoir + Treasonous Ogre + a storm count of at least 15!

Nice episode on a very "problematic" or - let's say - tough topic. I'd love to see Eddie's Rashmi Decklist :-) But Ghalta at a 5? I don't know tbh.... having a two turn clock Commander that can hit the board as early as turn 4 ist preeeeeeetty strong for a 5/10 imo...

At the LGS if I don't know the decks I sit down with my tree tribal budget deck. I would get stomped normally but you also see the psychology of people "pitty-ing" you. Then I can adjust and pull out my casual uro or cEDH deck to fit the table. The issue is one you need time to play multiple games. Two you need multiple decks.

I played one time with a group of people who used to play on the more competitive side of things and had got so sick of it that they made up their own ban list to try to "slow down" their games. When I went to play I brought my 6-7 power decks thinking they would be alright. Everyone else at the table had decks that were so strong that they blew me out of the water every time. I stood no chance even when I brought out my Gitrog deck, which is arguably my most powerful deck. When I brought up the problem of power level, they just kept saying "well we aren't playing competitive decks" which was true, but I tried to point out to them that this was supposed to be casual and they were still threatening to win by turns 3-5. When I asked them if they would switch to lower power decks, they all said they only had one deck to play with. The power problem isn't something to be solved easily, but talking and discussing expectations before a game is a step in the right direction. If I had talked with these people before sitting own to play a game with them, I would have not even begun the game because I would have known that I was out of my league.

@eric0967

3 жыл бұрын

the play group has established its power level of the group. its on you to play to their power level or find a new group.

@nickboshart6715

3 жыл бұрын

@@eric0967 true, but they were the ones who invited me to play. I didn't know anything about their power levels before playing. It felt a little rude to invite someone and then just pub stomp them without giving the warning that they use incredibly powerful decks

Loved the video! Just wish it would have helped us decide on how to rank our decks more 😂

i personally but CEDH decks in a whole another category, and I have where certain themes tend to be around certain power levels, like group hugs that doesnt plan on winning is a 1, combo decks tend to be around 9, voltron 7, high synergy 8, token 6, artifact 8, and weak CEDH decks would be placed at around 11. Strategy, budget, commander, and pilots are all big factors that need to be considered. Also certain strategies tend to be weak to certain things like a voltron tends to be very weak to mass sac, and life gain decks are weak to voltron usually.

I am a very typically themes and memes deck builder who just rages through his collection of cards optained during events and packs openings, and cheap bulk purchases making my deck 5 and below with the rare 6 if the theme happened to be a mechanic as well... and sadly most of the frequent players in my group are the researchers who buy 30 singleton cards and sometimes they aren’t scared to drop 5 dollars or more on synergy pieces. More often than not I don’t feel good after games sadly. And so far there has been no consensus. I’m not spending a ton of money to play just two or so deck at high power level and they like winning so they keep raising the power bar for themselves. Not looking for advice xD just venting. Enjoyed the video by the way.

Most important words from the opening statement “when playing with someone for the first time”. Sometimes you need that game where you get annihilated to read the room so to say.

@koelkast9

3 жыл бұрын

I felt actual shame last monday when i played with a new group. My turn one was disgusting and the table gave me some bad looks. There only rule was no cedh so i broight out my best non cedh deck

@ferdithetank7535

3 жыл бұрын

Perhaps their expectations were quite different, asuming people tend to set a lot of generally strong things to "cEDH". I think it is fair to let people know before the game starts if you're playing for the win or not, might save your future relationship with that playgroup.

@koelkast9

3 жыл бұрын

@@ferdithetank7535 yeah i told them it was as crazy as i could have made it

I like to build focused optimized, about a $300-500 budget focused on a wincon but not played enough to work out all the bugs (sub optimal cards). there will also be sub optimal card because of the focusing, ie. no counter spells in my Tuvasa the Sunlit because the deck is focused on enchantments and beefing Tuvasa for commander damage and drawing cards. pulled off a turn 7 63 commander damage game one time

I would have loved to hear comments on the impact of how tuned a mana base someone has effects the power level, if at all. I find the more tuned a mana base a player has, the more the more tuned the rest of their deck is.

I have been inspired by this video! I’m going to try to make a five. It’s going to hurt but no infinite combo maybe Boros or something. Honestly not going to be easy but I bet it will be cheaper than most of my builds. What Commander to build though....?

I often ask for their win cons, if they say thassa, food chain, worldgorger etc. Then u can gauge the powerlevel. Casuals often play tribal synergy deck that often win by just swinging with creatures.

Honestly I feel like the best way to let people know how powerful a deck you have is to find out how fast you can win without interference with a God hand? Then on what turn can you consistently get to a win state without interference. For example my K'rrik deck with a God hand I can win on turn 1 and I can constantly win by turn 5.

Big fan here. Which is why I recommend the purchase of a quality audio compressor for your mics. The dynamic range is all over the place when y’all speak (which is normal) but it makes it more difficult to hear every word especially when you’re driving and listening to the podcast. Just a suggestion on taking the audio quality to the next level.

I have been working on a 2 sided card that helps you evaluate and summarize your deck so that you can have someone else take a look and judge your deck at a glance. I would love to have you take a look and see what you think.

Putting a budget limit on the decks is really helpful in most cases. There are still a lot of stronger and weaker decks within the same price but at least you're sure no one's playing mana crypt, mana vault, demonic tutor wincon turn 1