Correction: The previous version of this interview stated that the debate between George Monbiot and Chris Smaje was around lab grown meat rather than lab grown food.

@jacquesvincelette6692

Ай бұрын

The blue pill, the red pill, or home grown green beans... it is cruelly fantastic to be so well fed.

There is a trend to monopolize farm production. It works in this way : small farmers are being strongly encouraged to think bigger and invest massively in larger stables, more animals, more automation etc. They are provided with loans to make the project happen, but later on - when market prices fall and things don’t work out financially because of the debt burden, the same people that pushed the investment now take over the farm and now the farmer doesn’t own his farm anymore. So over the years a monster is grown.

@davidwilkie9551

Ай бұрын

He'll on Earth.

In addition to the space required to grow food, the time it takes build a small farm and grow is also a barrier for many. Work full time and come home and farm until dark… it gets lonely

@chookbuffy

Ай бұрын

I hear ya! It is people like Chris that gives me some hope

@Withnail1969

5 күн бұрын

Civilisation needs some people to be professional farmers and others to take other roles. Its not possible for everyone to produce their own food.

Does anyone have a link to the david roberts article mentioned 41 minutes in? Great interview as always.

20 times greater risk of global "bread basket" food collapse from arctic amplification

"The system has inserted itself between us and the source of life." Derrick Jensen

@chadreilly

Ай бұрын

Derrick's one of my favorites. If Crystal has him on, I hope she thinks to ask him some fresh questions so she doesn't make him parrot himself like in every other interview. I would ask something like, "so what do you think of Ted K now?"

@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885

Ай бұрын

@@chadreilly what are Derrick's qualifications besides writing long-winded books?

@chadreilly

Ай бұрын

@@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885 He's really smart, well read, logical, and honest. What more could you want? I wouldn't call him long winded. I just looked it up, he has a BS in Mineral Engineering Physics.

@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885

Ай бұрын

@@chadreilly OK he said he was there on scholarship - so that explains a lot. Writing books as a rabblerouser is very different than actually being a rabblerouser as an undergraduate. hahaha.

@chadreilly

Ай бұрын

@@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885 The world could use more rabblerousers, lol. Speaking about writers of such, Andreas Malm is interesting. Super leftist, Crystal would maybe like him more than me. But he's got guts, or at least promotes having them, lol

The human body is the most energy efficient tool. Having people instead of machine growing food is much better for the people and the planet

@chadreilly

Ай бұрын

True, but... How many calories does Chris' farm produce per person?

The reality of the social system - wage-labour & capital is that it has an immutable dynamic - the accumulation of capital. Workers are alienated from the means of production and distribution. From the perspective of capital, food is needed to maintain workers but food is also a commodity to be produced with the sole aim of realising a profit. If you can't afford to buy food, or you have been displaced from your traditional land where you were a subsistence farmer, your future is very bleak because capitalists would rather destroy food surpluses to keep market prices from falling below profitable levels. Whilst this social system exists, there are no solutions for the multiple existential predicaments it has generated. If people were able to abolish wage-labour and capital (buying & selling, government, nation-states, property) and establish common ownership (free access & voluntary labour) with democratic administration, then it will be up to communities to work out the how, what, when and why of food production.

Chris is cool. Thanks.

@chadreilly

Ай бұрын

He's absolutely population blind. Or at least he was when I read his book. Otherwise I found him quite wishy-washy.

@madameblatvatsky

Ай бұрын

@@chadreilly population blind? In what sense?

@chadreilly

Ай бұрын

@@madameblatvatsky Like population relative to land mass, human carrying capacity, and biodiversity loss is of no concern whatever. I would tell you to read it in his book, but his book sucks. It's certainly no how to guide to small scale farming, despite the title.

@chadreilly

Ай бұрын

@@madameblatvatsky You might be able to tell, I'm bitter for having wasted so much time reading it to the finish, lol

@madameblatvatsky

Ай бұрын

@@chadreilly that's always an unfortunate blind spot

Might it not be an overpopulation crisis, Chris? Not entirely of course, but at least half. I think it's possible, and in fact likely, that BOTH Chris and George Monbiot are WRONG about all this. However, I did like George's book on rewilding. His comments regarding Michael Moore, not so much. It's kind of a laugh to hear Chris answer questions regarding stepping outside left/right thinking. I think David Fleming's Lean Logic is one of the better books in that regard. However, it burned Chris' fingers IIRC. I can't imagine what he would say if he read Garrett Hardin's Living Within Limits. Some of the 50s and 60s books on Sioux and Comanches are I think relevant, Vikings, Mongols, to be inclusive. Scott's Against the Grain read backwards contains much wisdom I think.

@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885

Ай бұрын

The Breadbaskets (where food is mainly grown) are directly threatened by Arctic Amplification slowing down the Jetstream

@chadreilly

Ай бұрын

@@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885 Probably true. Not to mention aquifers and the Haber-Bosch process coming upon their last legs. Of course there is always Swift's Modest Proposal to fall back on but I can't help but think it's a tad immoral.

What I would have asked Chris is objective details about his farm. How many acres does he have? How many people are needed to work it. How many calories does it produce? What kind of calories (macros) does it produce? How many calories does it take to run it, and store calories, from the grid/hardware store? Reading between the lines from his small farm book, I don't get the impression he's sustainable. And he never really came clean on this. Which is but another reason I didn't like the book. I mean, it's nice to be one with nature and all...

@chookbuffy

Ай бұрын

The second book goes into more detail. And his blog posts detail the struggles with growing vegetables to market. As a relatively new farmer trying to go down the sustainability path his experiences are very relatable. I’m an energy physicist by trade and Mombiot’s lab food is energetically blind. We literally are crazy to throw our food production over to big business. UPF, glyphosate damage etc are all evidence of its perverse outcomes

@chadreilly

Ай бұрын

@@chookbuffy Chris lost me on his first book, so I don't intend to give him anymore cash. Can you relay answers to my questions from book two? I believe you about Mombiot's techno-optimism. I just suspect Chris is just as blind, so they argue with each other to cope, lol

@chookbuffy

Ай бұрын

@@chadreilly I don't think he is "just as blind". He takes steps to understand ecology and energy constraints (such as EROEI). I can't go through Chris' book to answer your questions but his blog post at the end of last year 'Food, land, work and rent: the real story of Vallis Veg' spoke in depth about the cost pressures in any small growers' operation. However I can have a stab at your questions based on my 30+ acre operation. Only 2 people work mine (my wife and me part time) and we are fortunate to be able to see produce at a small shop in a nearby town that she runs...so whilst we are part-time market gardeners but able to build up our capital (vegetable gardens) and chicken system. We would not be able to afford more help because the true cost of healthy food is higher than what most people will afford to spend on it. It is less about calories and more about nutrition. Industrial agriculture has focused on calories for the last 50 years and that has resulted in obese people with nutrient deficiencies. Not only that, the damage from pesticides in people's guts is now being recognised for the first time. Healthy nutrient dense food is what we produce. However if you look at total productivity of permaculture systems on a per acre basis they can be higher ( refer to any of Bill Mollison's takes about permaculture outputs from a variety of different plants) I have no doubt that my own 30+ acre operation will require diesel to run it for at least the next few years because we don't have the communities in place to work at it and see the value....plus we are all in debt (see Andrew Millison's videos in India where he looks at whole towns involved in provisioning their own closed-circle fertility food systems) I suggest you read more about permaculture if you want to know more

@chadreilly

Ай бұрын

@@chookbuffy Yeah, I read that blog post yesterday after reading your message. And it sounded familiar. I think I read it last year, as that’s about the time I was finishing up my read of Small Farm Future. Anyway, it, with his book only made me more suspicious he wasn’t really pulling it off. My read-book spreadsheet also says I gave Small Farms Futures a 2/10, with the following comments: “Not entirely worthless, but nearly so. Nothing about what to farm at all, but more a call for the proletariat to unite, this time in the country. And like Marx seems there was more concern with labor than with anything regarding the preservation of wild nature. In fact I don't think wild nature was even mentioned. Completely humanistic, verbose and a bit bombastic, which is kind of ironic considering how dithering he was overall in his thought, with everything being a bit "this or that."” So yesterday I read his Feb 28, 2024 post where he “answers” if small farms can feed Britain and Tokyo. He quotes one guy asking essentially my questions: “I just wanna see a simple sum where *YOU* figure out how much *YOU* produce per acre and scale that to 70mil people doing it.” Emphasis mine. Chris then says he’ll answer, writes verbosely, but doesn’t answer. As for you. I appreciate your answer, but I want to know how many calories. Cause when you are starving, it’s more about the calories, and less about vitamins and minerals. I’m a healthcare professional, with much nutritional training, and I know for what I speak. I have Moleson’s book, and like it, but I’m sure permaculture isn’t going to feed 8 billion people. I think even Patrick Whitefield wrote about overpopulation being a major problem. Regarding chickens, a lot of people have them here (Alaska) and they feed them mostly chicken feed (bought from the store), which I expect will be unavailable for purchase about the same time eggs become unavailable for purchase. Have you read Lean Logic? It’s amazing and Chris dissed it, for political reasons I’m sure. Anyway, I feel like I’m David Fleming’s revenge, lol.

@chadreilly

Ай бұрын

@@chookbuffy I should add that Chris isn't the only one. It seems like a lot of permaculturalists are making claims that they are feeding whole neighborhoods, on their half acre lots. And it turns out they are merely providing salad toppings for said neighbors for only a few months or weeks out of the year. I'm saying calories per acre and per person, is MASSIVELY important. And if you're not providing enough, clearly population, CHRIS (despite chapter 1 of your book), is a MAJOR problem.

I no longer have access to my comment from yesterday's video but I wrote about my own small homestead. Helena Åberg replied to me saying: "You really think that that is scalable to 8 billion people and not just for rich delusional people. You are still predending [sic] that you still have feelings and respect to animal lives when in reality your mindset is exactly what all people in animal industry have. We will truly survive with leaving animals alone..." I would respond to Helena by saying, "I’m worried this comment is a form of racism. The majority of all indigenous cultures do not share your beliefs and their communities in northern climates have no ability to thrive absent animal protein. Do you believe you are morally superior to them because you prefer to kill plant life over animal life? Billions of people around the world in mountainous regions where agriculture is impossible are only alive today because of animal husbandry. I am sorry to hear that you feel those billions of people are all delusional. It takes less oil and gas inputs to produce chicken than cereal grains. We are running out of oil and gas. You will soon be running out of cereal grains. Vegetarianism developed in the south where warm climates meant you could have access to ample fruit and vegetables all year long. Those regions are all now some of the most vulnerable to climate change. Instead of judging me I encourage you to grow all your own food for one year and see whether you can produce enough to feed yourself. I was unable to produce enough fruits and vegetables in my 4 month growing season, and would have starved absent animal protein. I scythe my own hay. Your grocery store shelves are beginning to run bare. Like Chris Smaje, I believe that small homesteads are the answer."

@mitkoogrozev

Ай бұрын

I'm wondering where are those numbers coming from? The billions of people that rely on animal protein that you claim ? And what exactly do you mean by "rely" ? From OurWorldinData at least, it is shown that animal foods provide only 20% of global calories and yet it takes 80% of arable land. And with such a massive global population, if we focus on feeding people with animals...well, you can figure out the numbers yourself. It would be an utterly ridiculous task, without having a massively smaller global population. We will have to have people eat mostly plant foods directly if we want to free up enormous slats of land to be re-wilded. If everyone ate a vegan diet, currently up to 75% of agricultural land can be freed up in theory. That's the size of USA plus Brazil combined. So that would definitely be a massive help and something that probably should be a part in our future change. And you would be wrong on the energy and resource inputs. Thermodynamically speaking, growing animals will always take more energy and resources than plants. Chickens DO take more oil and gas inputs than plant agriculture. Nobody is talking about natives but industrialized society when changes in food habits is talked about , so there's no racism involved. Talking about natives as an excuse so everyone else doesn't change their food habits would be a red herring and making it worse/preserving the status quo. Also " Do you believe you are morally superior to them because you prefer to kill plant life over animal life?" . Well, do you believe plants can suffer like animals can? Do you cry every time you have to cut a carrot on the chopping board? Do you think the carrot is in excruciating pain while you do this? And if you do, show me the evidence that a carrot has subjective experience like something with a nervous system that has evolved to experience pain, since plants have no reason evolutionarily speaking for such a system. Also again, red herring with the natives. The focus is most probably on industrialized societies. They are not people who are in a survival situation in the wild like some tribes might be. They are relying on a food system they don't participate in it's production , and if they continue to 'choose' eating more and more meat, they are contributing in making our global existential threats worse, and those that move to a plant based diet, would be objectively better actions.

@DarthVagen

Ай бұрын

*speciesist

@heatherabrc5998

Ай бұрын

@@mitkoogrozev places like Iceland and Alaska or seaside villages where the land is regularly flooded or windswept

@EmmaSolomano

27 күн бұрын

If you would die without access to animals for food, no one is saying you should give up animal products. As a global population, we give over much of our arable land to farming a very inefficient means of providing calories and nutrients to people. Half of all cropland is fed to livestock. What a waste. Plus all those animals hunted to extinction or almost so. There's no way to get around the laws of thermodynamics - if we treat ourselves as a species that eats animals, there cannot be many of us. It's how the food chain works, with much lower populations of the higher species. Animal ag has massive detrimental effects and ethically it is abhorrent as well. We'd do well to all go vegan and those who can't survive without some hunting can do so as necessary.