This wagon is becoming a truly entertaining experience. Your lifelong skills are being tested. I'm looking forward to seeing this story unfold!

Hi Dave, personally I would rebuild it to the original coach, I wouldn't change a thing even if it's not a factory coach, someone went out of his way to build this from parts he had and most likely he was proud of his accomplishment

@railroad9000

Жыл бұрын

I agree. Keep even the differences in dimensional items. It is unique and a classic in its own right!

@r8118830

Жыл бұрын

I think that this is the right perspective. However the owner should have a say as well. You would not want to reproduce imperfections if they were to affect the performance , balance or safety of the coach, horses and driver. If they are just small anomalies that make it unique then by all means. I would not reproduce the washers on the coach bolts you know. They weaken the structure. Just leave them out.

@secretsquirrel6308

Жыл бұрын

Like the Johnny Cash song; One piece at a time.

@stephenhenion8304

Жыл бұрын

But.... what's originally, original?

@railroad9000

Жыл бұрын

@@stephenhenion8304 Good question. We may never know!

The time you expend just researching and trying to figure out what it was like originally, really shows how much of a craftsman you are. I have enjoyed watching every video you post since I found your channel several years ago. Thank you for sharing with us your work and journey into history.

Would love to hear its tales if only this coach could talk! Being commissioned to restore this family heirloom it would be correct to keep the design anomalies, but I would want to make the owner aware of them so they can make the final decision. Could be great grandpa made some repairs himself after a wreck or maybe hacked two wrecks into one serviceable coach?

@jonhaskell9630

11 ай бұрын

Yep, it's like old cars and tractors when they get restored. Most of the old cars get the mag wheels and hood scoops when they get restored. Young folks going to an antique car show must have the impression that MOST cars were that way all along, while they were actually few and far between. Same with the old tractors, where they get the perfect paint job and all the bells and whistles. Although the family (and Dave) have the say... It'd be nice to show up at a gathering, and realize that everything wasn't "factory". As an aside, I grew up about 20 miles south of Abbott and Downing's shop New Hampshire. Being that eastern wood species are different from western, generally speaking, sending out a sample section of one of the original main pieces for analysis would answer those type questions. I think UNH does that, and I bet they'd do it over in Missoula as well.

I was able to stop in at Laws and see the Borax wagons. VERY IMPRESSIVE. I couldn't help notice that all the bolt heads are all in alignment up and down/side to side. You are a true craftsman.

Hi Dave. I think the way you have received the coach is the way you should restore / rebuild it. The little differences and "abnormalities " are all part of its history. I think this, as you eluded to, is what will make it true to its character. Excellent job of explaining your thought process and your detective work.

@cotton-Dave

Жыл бұрын

Jerry--I agree. I would have said it exactly as you did! :)

@miltonpomales5405

Жыл бұрын

Agreed!!!

@stevenalleyii864

Жыл бұрын

Agreed

@brucematthews6417

Жыл бұрын

Agreed. Dave, as you mentioned these were used for passenger services. I'm thinking that someone working on a tight budget in a smaller town commissioned the local blacksmith to work with him on making the iron parts while they did the wood parts. Likely with lots of daily bickering over price and quality. Likely a good story right there. And then went about making his living by operating a small and likely one coach service. And it seems to me, and the others that are also agreeing, that this is a little view of life in the old west where folks depended on being resourceful that deserves to be restored in the same manner that it was built.

@howardnielsen6220

Жыл бұрын

Thank You Puzzle solver

Here's my two cents worth: Providing that the owner agrees, put it together in such a way that you'll feel good about your work when it goes out the door.

@gordbaker896

Жыл бұрын

Very Important.

@bigredc222

Жыл бұрын

I agree it should be built to the high-quality Dave usually builds. I'd fix everything that is noticeably asymmetrical, even if it means completely replacing parts. The owners won't know the difference, and if it's built to a lower standard and you tell them, I didn't build as good as I could have because this is the way it was built, they may be fine initially, but that shortcoming will show its ugly head in the future and all the owners will remember is that they paid to have a wagon built and their wagon isn't as nice as other wagons they see.

I have to say that I have been watching your videos for over a year and the work you are doing is not only wonderfully done, but you are inspiring me in my work. Thank you for that.

I haven’t seen this comment yet, Dave, so for what it’s worth: you’ve got a very good photographic record of what you received, and now the videographic record of your analysis. That sufficiently preserves the history of this vehicle and you lose nothing by rebuilding it to its original state as far as that can be determined. That might mean leaving off a few of time’s accretions, like the mismatched handles and the unshared plates that go over them - both clearly added later. And leave the washers off the bolts or the same problem (of the heads turning) will present itself again. We know that the owner doesn’t want complete preservation or he wouldn’t have asked for rubber tires when you received it with steel tires. (Actually, if he wanted preservation, he would just move all the bits into a barn and leave them there out of the weather.) I’d like to see you remake it to the original design, as far as that can be determined. Either way, I’ll watch, as always, with fascination. Thanks for allowing us to perch on your shoulder as you work.

@aserta

Жыл бұрын

Counterpoint: that'd work if this wasn't artisanal in nature. A production item. It is now, however, so the aspects that make it distinct from others need preserving. Regardless of state (because everyone of us has that project they've been watching break apart) it still is a living record of someone's creation and its path through history. The rubber tires vs metal tires are not really relevant, because just like viking boat reproductions that are in commercial use are required to have fire suppression systems and evacuation boats on board... so do some places require you don't destroy road surface with metal wheels/tracks (hence why in some places you see metal tracked dozers or diggers cross roads atop plywood). It's also a modification pretty much required to use modern roads. Back then, rubber tires would've been chewed to rim by the rough paths taken, nowadays we have roads, meant specifically for rubber contact (formulation and composition). Might as well use them, might as well make this item usable, by that extent. Just my 2 cents.

@notsofresh8563

Жыл бұрын

I am guessing it was built and then repaired by the same carriage shop over more than one generation. Grampa built it and his grandkids kept it running, perhaps without the skill grandad had. It is possible it was used still in the depression, and may have even been repaired then when scrap was all you had. I vote to keep it as close to "as found" as possible. The story told by the irons disappears if you change it back.

As I was listening/watching this episode, I recognize workmanship of my caliber! But I never made a wagon, yet. Thinking it would be nice to have some of this documented for those of use that like to read and look at this type of information. Went up and expanded the information.........Already there. Now I have to revise my Christmas list! Thank you Sir, you are a true craftsman.

Your videos on coach rebuilding are turning into classic "Murder She Wrote" mysteries. I just love your powers of deduction. Dave your ability to weave your stories is definitely a rich part of every one of your videos. Your talents are difficult to exaggerate. Bless you.

@Moon-fv5sz

Жыл бұрын

👍

My vote is preserve the "Mystery" of its history. Everything has a story to be told and coach has had an adventure. We may never know what happened in its life, but it would be a shame to lose the mystery of its history. Looking forward to the next video to see what new stories this coach may reveal.

Fantastic to see your process of "illumination" with this project. I think the integrity is with what you have. It's not a commercial piece, if you change it it becomes a different vehicle.

@Dave-ty2qp

Жыл бұрын

Great play on words. LOL

I love listening to your stories when you are trying to figure something out. You are able to do it because of your experience and knowledge of how these coaches were built . Great job 👍

I know of a wheel, coach, wagon, shop that restores things no one else can figure out. Engels coach shop signature is perfection, it has to be 99.9% perfect before it can leave the shop. Most of the time it’s better than that. Have a good Thanksgiving every body and give thanks for the country we live in, and that we can worship God in our own way. As always thanks Dave

@dianeengel4155

Жыл бұрын

Thankyo, Gene.

I have to agree with your thinking - your work is historical, not "What it shoulda been built like." As it is, you have to replace all the wood, as I don't see ANY piece worth keeping. So no matter what the reason, I'd vote for keeping the uniqueness of what you have. Of course, the owner has the last word, but your effort toward authenticity is one of the things I admire about you. This is a real adventure. Thanks for taking us along.

Well after that wonderfully extensive explanation of what you found, I think we can all agree that it may very well have been the butler 'cos it surely wasn't the blacksmith (or wheelwright!). That said I wholeheartedly agree that your duty is to preserve the "inaccuracies" of the butler-built coach. It should be every renovator's duty to preserve history whenever and wherever possible, and there is too much history and story telling in this coach to ruin it by making it "perfect". Thanks Dave for your great videos with all these historic aspects of your Western society. Regards from Scotland.

Morning Dave, I would do as you are thinking, as the builder put a lot of time and effort into building something that lasted nearly 100 years it will be a testament to his skills and labour in building it and another chapter in its history. Thanks for the video. Regards Richard 🇬🇧

Pretty cool to watch you work out what is what and how it all relates to each other, so you understand how it was build. It's like disassembling software to work out how it works. Thanks for the video.

I love how you patiently explain your forensic anslysis. Thank you for putting in the time and effort to share it with us.

Here in Australia we say "go with your gut", so go with your gut feeling and rebuild to what you surmise from the pieces you have. Although I feel sure the lack of symmetry will cause some difficulties and added complexities to the build. But the end result will justify the "gut feel" of the coach. Best of luck, I can't wait to follow along with this restoration project.

I believe you're on the right track Dave, rebuild like it was with all it's uniqueness. The wagon may not have been perfect or refined, but probably worked for many years just fine. At very least it will make for a great conversation piece. I'm really enjoying this series!!

I can't thank you enough for sharing this with us all. As a now regular viewer, I find this project to be quite humbling. Many times, I watch and think "I could probably do that. Quite poorly, and it would take a while, but maybe". When you pulled this into the shop, the part of me that imagines taking over your shop for a day just wanted to crawl into a hole. Only with decades of experience are you able to find these details and put the puzzle together.

First let me start by saying that I only discovererd your channel 2 weeks ago. No superlatives would do justice to your skill sets or your knowlege acquired over the years. You did ask so here goes. I have a 1950 Ford F1 truck that I reworked by taking everything down to frame off. Budget would not allow for a concours restoration, nor did I keep the added on metalwork that the original farmer welded on to keep it in service and repair. Like you say there is restoration and there is preservation. I think consultation with the customer on what you have discovered and having his input would be a step in the right direction. But you of course already know this. Whatever you decide, it is going to be well built coach, and a valued possession. Thank you for including us on a very informative and skilled process.

Definitely preserve what it was like originally as much as you can.

The world renowned detective uncovering clues like no one else. Extremely interesting. My vote, such as it is, is for it to be "restored" for its uniqueness. Thank you and Mrs. Engels for allowing us to come along on your journey. God Bless you all!

Thank you, Dave, for another wonderful introduction.

Dave, I think you know what to do here, Make it right. Build as if you were building it for the first time. For me there is no question. The grandson want's to remember grandpa, not the original builder who was guessing at how to build this coach. It the original builder had the resources, they would have done it right without question. Much respect to you. Kris

The Coachology is truly fascinating. True craftsmanship is needed to preserve the history, but still make it a usable coach.

May this 89 year old Limey say how much I enjoy your video's. As someone who can't knock a nail in straight, a please to watch a tradesman at work. Just one point, to you train an apprentice to carry on the good work.

You are an expert when it comes to figuring out how these coaches were built and how someone might of changed it's original design. The original owner probably had someone change the design because they had no choice, I'm guessing. What a history this wagon has.

Thanks Dave for walking us thru this tangled mess. You have done a great job of explaining your delima. Sometimes you ust have to turn in your results to the man writing the check, and let him make the decision.

Bravo Dave hai accettato la sfida,portala avanti così come è il materiale e buon lavoro ne hai le capacità,Auguri👍👋👋

Johnny Cash's song One Piece at a Time keeps playing in my head.

I like that you want to keep the history of the coach.

Here's my 5 cents. Build it to it's possible original state. I to think it's been repaired sometime in it's life. You always do great work it's a pleasure to watch.

A who dunnit mystery. Eagerly watching another great video.

A very very clever man,so interesting to listen to.glad I found this site. Doug Yorkshire U.K.

Where the differences are going to affect the structural integrity of the coach replace it with a style that is more fitting of that era, for things like the handles unless the owner says otherwise keep them as they are will maybe a few tweaks. Dave you have nailed it, I also believe it was a wreck, and a town coach shop made hasty repairs to get the show on the road again. Thanks and your knowledge is impressive.

You do what you think is best. Your the best at what you do. Nobody can ever say it's wrong. Just do it how you see it. It'll be great.

My opinion is greatly influenced by the Sampson Boat Co. youtube channel, where Leo took on the mammoth task of re-building a century old wooden sailing yacht. Early on it became obvious that the boat was no longer symmetrical side-to-side. Also, technology had advanced dramatically. And so he faced similar questions to what you face now: re-build it to reflect incongruities that were either built into the coach or that came about later in its life due to repairs? Or rebuild it to how the original builder would likely to have made it now, given the opportunity (i.e., skill, materials, etc.) and modern technology? My vote is that you do the latter...you make this coach what the original builder would have, if he (or she!) could have. Whatever you decide, I look forward to future videos!

@Dave-ty2qp

Жыл бұрын

Leo also discovered that the boat was wrecked and repurposed on more than one occasion. The delima being do we go back to original, or perserve the history of the incidents. I would recommend for Dave to contact the owner and let him make the call when the time comes for the rubber to meet the road. No right answers here I'm afraid. Owners call on this one

@jenniferwhitewolf3784

Жыл бұрын

Agree.. go for a 'as designed' with modern building methods.

@e020443

Жыл бұрын

I wonder how many of us follow both channels? Both, of course, are excellent.

@blueblur6447

Жыл бұрын

@@e020443 I imagine many. Sampson Boat Co is probably my favorite content ever created covering a restoration.

@e020443

Жыл бұрын

@@blueblur6447 I agree -- carpentry raised to an art form. Dave is excellent, but those shipwrights are in a class by themselves.

Mistrzu,jesteś geniuszem w tym co robisz.Pozdrowienia z Polski,

I'd say do what the customer wants, but if it were me, I'd want the original builder and/or repairs left intact. Thanks for the detailed walk through!

I knew a mechanic who visited the junk yard often to obtain parts for his car, and yes it was a wreck, like that wagon. He often refitted it to the point other mechanics made fun of his poverty. He had to make due to get to work and provide for himself, forsaking shame and ridicule. That wagon reminds me of him and I have compassion and sympathy for the owner of it. It does indeed tell a story and your trained eye has caught its embarrassment. I wonder what pulled it, a small team of army mules maybe 🤔

I really appreciate your fidelity to the original craftperson's work. I follow two other restoration experts (one in fine art and one in antique furniture) and all three of you have the same philosophy: Return the object to the state it was in when it left the artist's studio or maker's shop. This shows respect for that person's work and, perhaps more importantly, preserves the piece's history for future generations to study. Thank you.

Love the intriguing process to examine the minute details of difference. Right up my forensic experience and mindset! I will watch with keen interest as this project continues! Thanks

Dave, I have read other comments and I agree with those that say it should be put back together the way it was built and/or put back together after a wreck. To many times people want to chance things. I know as you start work on the main body you will most likely have to do some chances to make things work and that is a given! Good luck on it!

Hi Dave, my 2cts is to stick with the original build as much as you can. Certainly it seems worthwhile to have a conversation with the family and get their thoughts. I suspect they will want it to stay as much as original as possible. I applaud your integrity and desire for historical correctness. Personally I will enjoy following this coach build even more because of it's eccentricities 😀warm regards vic

I would guess they used what they had on hand, and their own ingenuity, experience and skills to keep it on the trail. What a great channel! Thank you for sharing.

@ogearbox6132

Жыл бұрын

I agree with Judson’s assessment “necessity is the mother of invention.” Which would have been in use by those without the benefit of an engineering degree, proper materials, or more correctly without blacksmithing skills. Still very fascinating especially as we conjure what history’s reality may have been.

Great video Dave !! (ECS) It occurred to me that while your work and finish products speak for themselves, are an obvious historic preservation and statement to the great American migration, a visually comprehensive study (documentation) of intellectual properties of the past, especially including the video footage, ... , here might be an example that needs more. I mean to say, after traveling the Oregon Trail route & reading the personal diaries of travelers in every little museum along the way from Wyoming through Idaho & Oregon, I ran across several unique accounts. I cherished the fact they were written in details and preserved. I even bought copies of many. A written back story if you will. One that may tell of the individual drive & improvisational determination of those whom find themselves w/out help & in need. Shows the can do and will , necessary to resolve life's challenges. The unnamed & overlooked small miracles contributing to building this great nation. Where the video itself completes this mission, wouldn't it be nice to attach a leaflet (simi-official looking) w/ the finished project especially for the family who is interested in preserving this little piece of history, unique to their family. Something explaining everything you've shared and all you will find in the coming project. You may include the explanations (your assessments) of what you see in the clues. Also, for accuracy, you could show some of the improv's like using washer backed carriage bolts and such where not structurally risky while using carriage bolts w/out washers for true and strong applications where needed. I thought I'd like a small written explanation if I had someone restore it for me and so I thought they might. It's just a thought, and the video would prolly suffice as long as it's available. But a written reference to geaux along w/project seems overwhelmingly generous and prized. Love your work, God bless you and the Mrs. Sincerely .......................

Another great video Dave. I think your customer is the person who should ultimately make the decision based upon your input & experience. At the end of the day you can elect to either accept or deny their decision. Stay safe and well.

Dave, I think this Wagon has a story to tell. A Story which the owner wants to know and forward it to the next generation. Maybe the grandfather of the owner has put a lot of effort into building or reutlingen the Wagon, at a time when material was spare, but he still was able to manage to build it. There are probably numerous commercially built wagons still there, whereas this one is unique and stands out.

What we as viewers think shouldn't mean a lick. It's not up to us it's up to the owner how it should be rebuilt, modified, or refurbished. Great detective work.

love your entries, make me smile BIG!!! Love your series too.

Dave , man, coach archeological analysis! Too cool! Love this info..

Hi Dave, as you mention in the video, the coach was probably built by a local town coach builder, was probably wrecked and subsequently rebuilt by a local town builder, and now it is being rebuilt and restored by another local town coach builder - i.e. you. I am confident that whatever approach you end up choosing to restore this vehicle to use, it will simply be another evolution in its story. Follow the original design where it makes sense to do so; and don't hesitate to make your own changes/adjustments/adaptations where it's necessary to achieve a result that you're satisfied with. Thanks for letting us follow along.

Reminds me of a fellow Montanan Don Hanley (RIP) that built small race cars as Race Cars of the Future who would 'series produce' cars, however no two of them were constructed exactly the same. Some used square tubing, some used round, etc. Personally observed five NEW cars being delivered - no two the same.

These old bolts, bands, braces and timbers are talking. I love following along as you tell us what they're saying.

Another very informative video I do love your work and your videos thank you again, Dave.

You are an artisan. Not only do you create and build beautiful and symmetric wagons, but you also care about the one(s) who went before you and try your best to replicate their work. It shows how much you care about history and preservation. If it were me, I would restore the wagon to its former glory and leave intact the idiosyncrasies of the original build. That makes it a one-of-a-kind wagon and a tip of your hat to the one(s) who went before. As usual thanks for all you do I look forward to ALL your post. I would love one day to meet you to tell you thanks face to face. Maybe in glory we can spend some quality time together. God bless you.

Hi Dave like in the Antiques trade its possible this coach was a marriage of parts from different coaches and made to fit to make or do a repair

@creepingjesus5106

Жыл бұрын

I was thinking along those lines, especially if as Dave thinks, it's been badly damaged and rebuilt, maybe more than once. It would've led a hard life and maybe suffered the 'get it fixed, get it back out' attitude.

This was great! I sometimes have the opportunity to work on building restorations and the guidance in "The Secretary of the Interior's Standards for the Treatment of Historic Properties" is consistent with the approach you are leaning toward, which I think is the right move. This coach represents a slice of American history, and may be more important, in some ways, than its more available cousins from known makers, given what it still can tell us about how other coaches were made. I'm looking forward to following along on this project, thanks!

Brilliant detective work as always. Isn't this proof that time travel never happens as we would be able to nip back and have the probably boring explanation for everything rather than the nice chewy conundrums such as this that keep us exercised with great videos like this!

Whatever will make the owner happy. He is the one who is paying for the restoration and will be using it.

*- Agreed, Dave. Preserve the rebuild-refurbishing it as it was {is}, as best you can.* *- I get it. It is an appropriate matter of honor for you.* *- It is especially so because, it is a one time opportunity to preserved the frequency history that has been completely lost now of how what was available long ago produced unique coaches hither thither and yon...so America could get itself built.* *- This will preserve a really important truth that "historians" failed to bother with.* *- What other coach maker or hobbyist ever bothered to see the worth of this?* *- Your contribution will be singular and prized by others, yes. *- More importantly, as a your maker's mark, it will be a special part of your lasting legacy.* *- It is wise that you do it for yourself, and not others. That is why as good art it holds presence.*

I love the idea that the blacksmiths artistry is preserved,even if it is crude or afterthought! The coach is more than the sum of its parts

Dave you have amazing skills, I would have looked at that and told the customer....there's the dumpster.

To me preserving what it was is more important in a historical sense as it shows a greater cross-section of how things were done in that time period. I.E. Recycling... Iron in that period did not grow in huge racks like it does today and it is important to remember that. A hometown smith may not have had the resources that the pros had but he made a wagon that someone put to work in their daily lives. The little guy is worth remembering more in my opinion as there are fewer examples of his work compared to a factory that turned them out in mass. This brings to mind something my grandfather said, Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without. Farmers did some amazing things with next to nothing. And yes I know iron does not grow in racks but you get my point. ;-)

Dave As a former shop owner for years, I understand your concerns. In my experience, I found that a good explanation to the owner was always the best direction to go. I think in 90% of the restoration I was directed to do was to make things mirror image front to back & side to side. Most wanted their item to reflect that "new car" smell. Just my two bits ! You do such good work, I don't see the possible way the owner could expect you to not build back better !!!!! Rod in Texas

@53jed

Жыл бұрын

Build back better is not restoration. Who is to judge what is better? Certainly not the people who use the phrase.

@RH-xr8ms

Жыл бұрын

@@53jed OK ,,,,,,,,,,Excuse me Genius,,,,,I'm sure you know it all. Dave asked us what we thought, and i did my best to do Just that. If it will sooth your chapped places, I will take it all back. Sorry, Dave,, i'm completely chastised, and will 'surely' try to do better in the future !!

Sounds to me like something great great great grandpa built and was very proud of, thats why grandpa was determined to keep it in the family.

I have to admit that I am also guilty of putting washers under carriage bolts after they have been overtightened to prevent them from sucking deeper into the wood. When restoring or repairing things, I find it most difficult not to make something that I want it to be, but to keep the quirks and oddities that the original builder and history have put into them. If I owned a wagon like this, of course I would want want it to be square and symmetrical and all that: but that is not the wagon this once was, so I will get one, that is odd and quirky. If I really wanted a square one, I could as well buy a new one. I want to add, that I very much enjoy your "After Work" videos.

thanks Dave enjoying watching everything you do 👍👍

You are spot on wanting to do it back the way it was.

Hi Dave, I think your methods, contemplation while having it all there are right on the mark. Your approach is spot-on, and those places where you aren't able to positively discern the design as-built, you will know what to do. I can't wait to see your end result! Happy Trails!

We have a comedy series in the UK with a roadsweeper called Trigger, in one scene in the pub he proudly pronounces he's had the same broom for 20years, he's maintained it well, it's had 17 new handles and 14 new heads🤣. I guess it's a follow your instincts on repairing the wagon

I was having similar thoughts. Noticed the mismatch last week and more obvious now. I think the side where the wood is more rotted away was the original, and the more-intact wood and its irons are newer repairs. If I were going for original, I'd restore it to match the "older" side, but if I were going for retaining its history, I'd keep it as much as-is as possible.

Very Interesting. What a puzzle. It just shows the variation in the attention to detail that different people/builders had back in the day. No different than today. Great little series on this coach!

I always go for originality, especially when it is a one of one or very limited production. Some crude -built examples tell a story that is lost when the original work is changed or improved. This is so interesting in that salvaged parts were used in its construction. The coach could have been built in an area where materials were limited or not available and the article tells the story of how they overcame the lack of commercially available parts and materials. Once again, the ingenuity of the fronter and the hearty people who built America.

Ten stars! Awesome knowledge and thought process. Thank you.

With enormous respect, I contend that you are not able to rebuild as original. Your skills and sensibilities are a century beyond the builder, a remarkable entrepreneur. This is a commercial transport vehicle, made locally for someone looking to capitalize on the stagecoach trade opportunity. I picture a blacksmith and his carpenter friend, working from drawings and measurements off commercial coaches passing through, hacking a coach for their neighbor, who was a little better off. Maybe this isn’t their first project, but they don’t have a lot to work with. Probably the wood that’s gone was mostly pine and not great to begin with. This coach was amazing and rough, built for the day. Could only be replicated by a curator, painstakingly replicating the thrown-together look. My thought is to build well, build to last like you do, and respect the eccentricities as you would, making a solid coach that can’t help being in your style, while honoring the people who built it first.

I love the detail that you go into explaining the parts you have and it would make it much easier for us viewers if you had (a lot of) drawings and illustrations of the areas about which you are working. At this time, we have only a vague idea of what you are working on.

It is a hard question you ask, what to do.... On the one hand, when it is done, it will have come from Engels Coach shop, whether the original was irregular and misshapen or not. In the same manner like you straighten mangled top irons or other rebuild parts, my leaning is towards ending up with 'matched' steps and 'matched' irons at the rear; not 2 1/2" here and 3" there. Nor would you send out the door a loose hub or tire... On the other hand, sending something out the door just "..because it came IN that way..." lacks much satisfaction as well. My vote would be to support symmetry, pick one you can live with and make another to go with it. Oh, and Free Advice is Worth What You Pay For It 🙂

I would rebuild it as it was or as close to what you think it was. You are restoring and preserving history.

The charm of it is that it’s unique. It’s history is the initial build and the repairs, if that’s what the oddities are. In my opinion they need preserving also as they are just as much part of the story as the original manufacture.

I am very interested in your mountain wagon undercarriage. That is really similar to an old "mountain stage" that ran in the Angel's Camp-Murphy's area during the latter part of the California gold rush days. That coach was on display outdoors for years in Angel's Camp during the early eighties. It fell into a sorry state due to being permanently on an outside display. The coach was sort of an open-air affair and not what would be normally thought of as a "mud coach." The coach was sold to a private collector. It was since "restored" by the Hansen Shop. I believe there is a video about the coach posted by them. The reason I mention this is I suspect your coach might be a "rebuilt" (or like you mentioned, local built) coach body using a commercially built running gear? I used to pass by that coach fairly often and aways thought I should stop, get photos and take measurements but never did get around to that. In those days I would have to borrow a camera and use real film. Digital cameras did not exist then for the public to purchase and use anyway. At the time I couldn't afford the film and developing as I was working in an entry level trade with lower-than-average wages.

This project gets more and more interesting as time goes on. What does the owner say about how the job should proceed? I was hoping it was an Abbott & Downing coach, coming from the Northeast, but with all the inconsistencies ,it is not.

Hey Dave I agree with Jerry Gillette with his comment and Good Luck in this endeavor.

My family ran a stagecoach business in the Cody, Wyoming area c.1900. Documenting the history of that coach through public schedules would not be hard provided the newspapers are archived they would have been published in. If passengers were involved in a crash there might even be a news article. If you know were the crash happened you could look around to see who had a shop that could have repaired it.

I'd love to see you build a coach in your own original style

I had never heard of Henderson Coach. I was only familiar with Abbot and Downing. I just went and looked up some pictures of Henderson coaches, and on the surface, this does resemble their coaches. That said, you are right about the lack of uniformity, consistency and finish. I wonder if this might have started life as a Henderson Coach, been wrecked, and then repaired by someone not very skilled, possibly at a much later date. This smacks of the kind of blacksmith work we saw in the '50's and '60's when most skilled blacksmiths had died out and people were cobbling stuff together without much skill. I just finished watching a Keith Rucker video where he just hauled home a blacksmith forge like yours and he is tearing off a lot of cobbled together junk attached to it that looks a lot like what is on your coach. Looking at your rebuilt running gear, that gear looks a lot more refined than the remnants of the body, which is making me wonder if it started as a commercial coach and got wrecked, the gear surviving and the body smashed.

I love your videos. I would say the decision is up to the owner. Personally, unless my dad or uncle Tom had made or repaired the wagon and added/changed to these other parts and they mean something special. I would make it like a factory wagon. The owner is putting some serious money into it and may want it to look professionally built. Again, I love watching you shows and would to stop by if we ever come out that way. Sincerely Alan from Memphis

To me, as you were describing it, all I could think of was that someone had two wrecked coaches, or one very badly damaged coach lacking most all of one side, and put the pieces back together as best they could. They obviously had to fabricate some pieces, since there are some oddities like those grab handles. It would be interesting to know where it might have been done, but this all feels to me like one step above "shade tree mechanic". It's a shame that the grandfather wasn't still around to talk about the coach, or that he didn't tell the grandson that much about it, at least that the grandson remembered. Assuming that it was only in the family for four generations, the grandfather probably knew the reason for the oddities. Even at 5 generations, if he listened to the oldsters cackling around the fire when he was a kid, he might have known a lot about the history. Since this is a (unique!) family heirloom, I think you are right to want to put it back together with the available parts and some creativity that matches the quality shown in the ironwork. That is, there should probably be some "rough edges" in the final product, matching that it seems to have been made from scrips.

I sure enjoy hearing about the history of these wagons/coaches. Keep up the truly informative parts of your videos.

A big part of me says restore it as it was built to the best of your interpretation. Another part says speak with the owner and see what they want, and another part says build it symmetrical and keep certain key things as it was, in a way that acknowledges the orginal builder but allows your skills to be incorporated. As you are now part of this coach as much as the original builder. This is in keeping with it's unique history.

Hi Dave, I have just watched "The Mystery of Who Did It" video. Very interesting, as we say here in UK you're a bit of a Sherlock Holmes. In other words a very clever detective. At the end you invite the viewer to comment on your point of view to preserving this coach. Could it be that whoever worked on this coach originally was maybe a European immigrant with different skills and standards to yourself? Sounds very likely to me and the coach is from the correct era too. I assume it will not be easy for you to work with such idiosyncrasies but I understand your decision and look forward to seeing the fruits of your labours. Thanks Dave and Diane, still a brilliant production. Stu, from UK.

Great investigative work!!! You are a great teacher.

Preserve the coach as it WAS, would be my recommendation, Dave !!

Dave, I have really been enjoying your walking through all the thought processes in your work and your attention to detail. Because you are restoring this coach, I think you are right to keep the original details. If someone wanted your version of a coach, they would commission you for a new one not the repair of an old pile of bones. And, for a couple of reasons, I think you should keep the extra irons from the suspected repair. First, because your analysis shows the coach was built asymetrically and reusing old, available iron, it seems like it would be very hard to decide exactly what was part of a repair and what was original. A choice to delete part of it could be wrong. Second, keeping all the iron and noting was repaired with extra iron at some point would create a good preserved example that will let people of the future know just how much could be done to repair or strengthen a coach.

@dianeengel4155

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Good thoughts .

Making it all fit will be a challenge, but I think keeping the asymmetrical design will be worth it. Looking forward to this rebuild.

wow engles,who flung the chunk.fortunately,you are the only one that can make that decision,and whatever that decision is,is the correct one. ty santee