"...and he was more cruel than any orc." You have to imagine the Mouth of Sauron doing something really horrible and an orc standing by shaking their head, saying "Dude, that's pretty out there..."

@christosvoskresye

2 жыл бұрын

"It is by no means clear, so far as I know, that the Eskimos ever indulged in human sacrifice. They were not civilised enough. ... It was in richer and more instructed lands that the genial current flowed on the altars, to be drunk by great gods wearing goggling and grinning masks and called on in terror or torment by long cacophonous names that sound like laughter in hell." -- G. K. Chesterton, The Everlasting Man As Chesterton points out, the greatest extremes of evil are carried out by cultured, civilized, sensitive souls.

@waltonsmith7210

2 жыл бұрын

So this is definitive proof that humans have the potential to be worse than orcs. I. guessing it hassomethingto do with our greater agency and culpability for our actions.

@christosvoskresye

2 жыл бұрын

@@waltonsmith7210 Exactly. Just as Maiar have the potential to be worse than humans.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

There's no evidence, of course, but I like to imagine that comment as referencing the Mouth maybe being involved in some horrible business within the tower itself. Prisoners, torture - both psychological and physical. "More cruel" meaning that he's not just following orders, he enjoys it. It's not "for sport" as Orcs would say, or for food. He genuinely enjoys it.

@_g8dfathr_678

Жыл бұрын

Unit 731 vibes. 😬

I never knew there even was controversy here. He's a mortal man of pure Númenórean descent, which means he can easily have been in Sauron's service for the 68 years since Barad-dûr's rebuilding. And I think it's a wise move to include such a character at this point, because it drives home the fact, that there are people who freely and proudly serve Sauron (which is far more frightening to me) and that they aren't about to face only mindless drones or foreigners that might have been tricked into Sauron's service. He's almost a mirror to Aragorn himself.

@TheSorrel

Жыл бұрын

Now I kinda wonder what living as a human in Mordor was like.

@TheRedBook

Жыл бұрын

I'm still getting responses saying he was a Wizard or that I'm wrong about him being mortal. The controversy continues lol

@inthefade

Жыл бұрын

@@TheSorrel probably all sorts of partying and excessive living if you're of a higher class like the Mouth. Slave women, drugs, wines brought from foreign lands. It is this sort of thing that corrupts mortal men.

@blakeriley8546

Жыл бұрын

@@TheRedBook iirc the witch king had very long life even before being given the ring under saurons tutelage. He may have learned similar secrets

@TheRedBook

Жыл бұрын

@@blakeriley8546 - No text to suggest he was long lived beforehand. Do you have a source?

The Mouth of Sauron's story is even more grim than forgetting his own name-The name implies that the man has forgotten his own words.

@masamune2984

Жыл бұрын

What a poetic and likely intentional description. Love that.

@spencerfrankclayton4348

Жыл бұрын

What does that mean?

@TheRedBook

Жыл бұрын

If means Sauron speaks for him. He's basically a man that only exists to speak what Sauron commands him to speak, no longer an individual.

@spencerfrankclayton4348

Жыл бұрын

@@TheRedBook Yet he's cruel enough to know what he's doing.

@TheRedBook

Жыл бұрын

I don't necessarily agree with the original point but was just answering the previous point :)

I really feel like the Mouth was essentially "just some guy." He represents the fact that Sauron's resources are vast to a degree that we can't even guess. In a way his existence justified the assault on the Black Gate, as it reinforces that Sauron has powerful lieutenants that not even Gandalf is aware of. Gandalf at one point says that not all of Sauron's servants are Orcs. I'd add that they're not even all ordinary beings. Who knows how many more unique servants Sauron may have added to the conflict if the ring had not been destroyed.

@Briguy164

2 жыл бұрын

I was gonna say the same thing. I think that's the reason when he's introduced he is said to have forgotten his own name. I think it was a way to introduce the character without having to give a bunch of background on him.

@Briguy164

2 жыл бұрын

I also wonder sometimes if he would have been involved with the book he never finished and if we would have gotten more background in it

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly, we have several mentions in LotR about all these dreadful servants and creatures of Sauron - it doesn't mean we have to know them all or see them all. It's a big world.

@himynameis3664

Жыл бұрын

@@TheRedBook Exactly, and sometimes I like some mystery left to characters. You're left imagining the things they've done with your own imagination

@laserpanda94

Жыл бұрын

This is the thing. Because the character is memorable but mysterious it leads people to believe that there must be some greater significance, a sort of variation of the functional fallacy. It's fun to speculate but ultimately the most likely truth is what we're told; that it's just some guy who's previous identity is long forgotten. Personally I prefer that as it allows you to imagine different stories of who he was and how he became this character.

I have no words. Incredible work. You are quickly becoming the best LOTR content creator on this platform. It's so refreshing to not hear just readings of the Silmarillion. You bring out debates and conversations that go so much deeper.

@justinah7400

2 жыл бұрын

I agree! Most other channels just try to answer the common and obvious questions while I find myself asking 5-10 additional questions but rarely is my curiosity satisfied except for this channel. The Red Book uses real critical thinking and I love it.

@christophedmarchal76

2 жыл бұрын

I agree as well. I feel Steven here might be more grounded in the literature. All these other channels, NoTR, MotW help solidify facts and dates, they don't bring a ton more than that. They never site their work or they would be sighting each others KZread time stamps. They came to Tolkien through the Jackson movies and LOTRO. There was never a time for them when the books were still "the thing". Hey, sure that gives them their spin on it. But as time goes on because they lack literary insight to their videos, which takes years to ferment, they all end up making the same videos within months or even weeks of each other. While they are good for fact imprinting on the brain, you'll go down a deeper rabbit hole listening to the Red Book or picking up Forsters guide or the Atlas to ME. I appreciate what they do, to a degree, don't get me wrong. But these are the videos that excite me personally.

@tominiowa2513

2 жыл бұрын

@@christophedmarchal76 Um, "cite" (or "citation"), not "site". While of course _The Red Book_ is an excellent Tolkien channel, other "small" channels also offer more than summaries, such as _Tolkien Lore_ , _GirlNextGondor_ , and _Darth Gandalf_ .

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks a lot Damian and to those responding with such positivity about the channel and the content :D

@snoopstp4189

Жыл бұрын

don't really see it as a big "debate", Tolkien literally tells us its a Numenorian and we can easily deduce it's not one of the Nine from the books movement of Nazgul. Could he have a lesser ring that sustains his life beyond the normal few hundred year span? Why not. Tolkien clearly regarded such details as more trivial and not worth his time to identify.

The interpretation given about the Mouth's age was what I had understood from the start, that the mouth had come to Sauron's service about 80 years earlier and worked his way up the Mordorian bureaucracy. Remember there were the lands in Nurnen populated by the millions of slaves who generated the economic output that supported Sauron's military strength. This economy needed a large management class. Orcs were too corrupt to be trusted with significant authority. Sauron, like Saruman, would need men for managerial purposes.

@danielhogan6255

Жыл бұрын

love this idea. We just never met these overseers because we were focused on the military affairs and frodo's quest. Makes sense!😁

@argentorangeok6224

6 ай бұрын

Yup. He started out as a filing clerk in Nurnen, worked his way up to supply auditor, and eventually became Sauron's executive VP.

We are all grateful for the young man who produced the entire trilogy as an audiobook. Thanks Phil!

Re "Willing Servants": imagine induction on your first day with the Sauron Organisation and getting brought round the workplace to meet the team, everyone's really friendly and welcoming, the Orcs, Trolls, Easterlings are all "hey pleased to meet you, welcome aboard, you need anything just gimme a shout!" and you're feeling really good about your new job; then finally your guide brings you into the back office: "and last but not least these are the Nazgul, small team but GREAT workers, say hi to the new start you guys!" "Hiiiiiiiiiiiiissssssssssss".... and you're thinking, hmm, something a bit off with that lot. But hey, the money's great and the benefits package is amazing!

@neant2046

2 жыл бұрын

You've just described the first day on my previous job :D

@sarikatimmi

2 жыл бұрын

hahaha

@ValerianMacMillan

2 жыл бұрын

@@neant2046 Wells Fargo, right?

@timothypachonka8642

2 жыл бұрын

The thing is to avoid being killed; that’s the key to the benefits.

@snoopstp4189

Жыл бұрын

Sounds like every IT job I've ever had. Troll passes me in the hallway.. Troll: "Who do you work for",, me: "xXxxXXx".. Troll: "ouch" and keeps moving.

A Black Numenorean, skilled in the dark arts of sorcery, could extend his life through his dark arts. Being totally dedicated to Sauron he had lost his "self" and become a willing extension of Sauron, so his self was no longer important. He was in all aspects "the mouth of Sauron".

@jamesaron1967

2 жыл бұрын

Well said and makes total sense.

@darkhighwayman1757

Жыл бұрын

I've always pondered on the lost his self part. I feel like lost feels incomplete. Excised or purged feels more apt. To be elevated, you have to make the choice to give up the self, which feels fouler to me. It can't be take by others, you have to burn it out yourself. Maybe I'm full of beans though.

@tomcunningham9318

Жыл бұрын

You're making it complicated. "Mouth" was grifting. Easy Peasy.

@Marcus-ki1en

Жыл бұрын

@@tomcunningham9318 Haha, well said.

Sauron was the 'lieutenant' of Morgoth, and the Mouth was the 'lieutenant' of Sauron (or clearly had ambitions to be, beyond just Barad-dûr). I like the idea (pure fanfiction), that the Mouth survived the downfall of Sauron, and continued his line of Black Numenoreans, passing on the secret title of 'Lieutenant'. They would regard themselves as the heirs of darkness, and infiltrate Gondorian society to instigate the events of The New Shadow under their leader Herumor, and perhaps beyond. Just as the Eldar and Maiar departed and left it to men to keep some fragment of light alive through Elessar, it is also men who directly inherit the legacy of the shadow and continue the purposes of evil into the Fourth Age.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Nothing wrong at all with imagining that, especially for the abandoned sequel. Who knows what really happened to the Mouth of Sauron, maybe he fled in cowardice - much like his own master did when HIS master was cast down.

@brianc9374

Ай бұрын

Agreed 100%

Years of reading Tolkien and I never really thought of this till I saw this video. The name "Sauron" is an epithet for the Dark Lord, used by his enemies. Of course he doesn't call himself by that name, any more than Melkor would identify himself as Morgoth. When Aragorn says Sauron doesn"t allow his servants to use his true name, I think what's actually meant by this is that Sauron allows no one to know or use his true Maiar name, Mairon. Calling him Sauron to his face or anywhere he could hear about it would be unwise for any of his servants, to say the least. But I could see him allowing this in certain instances, as when "Sauron" is likely to be the only name he is known by to the folk being interacted with. It also doesn't hurt when the intent is to frighten and intimidate people when that name strikes fear all over middle earth.

@fredkelly6953

Жыл бұрын

Yeah having a name like Marion would take the bite of his darkest overlord. That's what they call him behind his back to be sure.

@johns1625

Жыл бұрын

"Sauron" really does have a certain malice just in the sound of it. I was thinking recently if Sauron actually named the One Ring "Precious". Because several different people end up compulsively calling it that name, and none of them spoke to each other before naming it that.

@jerryknuckles736

Жыл бұрын

That's why the orcs call him "big baddie!!"

@hibbidyjibbidyy

6 ай бұрын

yea, gothuar the cruel, lord or the isle of wearwolves sound cooler

@hibbidyjibbidyy

6 ай бұрын

he was a exceptional student of aule at one time

The Earnur theory may have been influenced by The Lord of the Rings Online. In the game, Earnur was transformed into a wraith called Mordirith and was made the Steward of Angmar. There's no basis for this in Tolkien but it's fun fan fiction. Some of these theorists may have been trying to get that idea to work in canon. It doesn't work though, as you pointed out.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

That's interesting, I was unaware of that. I have never played LOTRO. I have played games like Shadow of Mordor/War which are hilarious in the way they rewrite the story but I didn't know a game had written Earnur this way.

@Pixis1

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheRedBook LOTRO is a great game. It's usually fairly respectful of the book canon. But it does have a few crazy departures like the Earnur plotline.

@David_Fellner

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheRedBook I only just started playing Shadow of War/Mordor a few months ago, and my assessment of their story/lore is this: *Shadow of Mordor* is to _Lord of the Rings_ as *Olive Garden* is to _fine Italian cooking._ But they're good video games overall with fun gameplay, so I try to just turn my brain off and enjoy while I play them.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

@@David_Fellner that's pretty much what I think. I can separate Tolkien from them and just enjoy them as games. I enjoyed them.

Great video. I’ve always seen him as a Black Numenorian that fell willingly to the Dark Lords service. Glad I’m not the only one who doesn’t think he’s thousands of years old.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

That's one aspect of the theory I 100% disagree with. I think it's strange to imagine this man at the gate as being some man from the Second Age just there through .. magic? The explanation that he was around decades earlier fits perfectly.

@yellowrose0910

5 ай бұрын

​@TheRedBook I think it's the Forgot Himself part that implies eons of service.

I've always though the messenger was likely a ringwraith; it never made sense to me that it would be the Mouth of Sauron. The theory that the Mouth is Earnur always sounded very far-fetched to me and I had never even heard of the Ring of Power theory before today. I think some people get too carried away with their head canon and start seeing connections that really aren't there, like a form of pareidolia, and ignoring evidence that undercuts their theory.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

You are spot on here with your thoughts about these theories. With certain people, Tolkien himself could say they were wrong and they'd argue against him. Anything to stand out from the crowd, I guess...

@istari0

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheRedBook Tell me about it. I sort of blundered into a discussion on another site on the old question of why the fellowship didn't use the great eagles to just fly into Mordor. Most people accepted the explanations I and others offered but there were still a few who would not give up their belief that the Eagles were Gandalf's personal stealth air force capable of flying right into Mordor at little to no risk and use precision targeting to drop the One Ring right into Mount Doom.

As far as I'm concerned you can never make a video that is too long. another fantastic piece of work, thank you

Here it comes… a huge wall of text for a huge video :D This video is just fabulous. I honestly didn't know what to fix my attention on when I was watching it for the first time… And for the second time, and for the third, probably… Too many details that deserve special attention! :D The commissioned artworks are beautiful: I love the style, the "oily" textures and the colours. I have also found new favourites among the other images. The colours of the frames and sidebars play with them so well (sorry, again the colours, but that yellow that you used for the frames is Lovecraftianly beautiful), and the effects just make them so alive... This video really looks cinematic! The light, the fog, the rain, the ashes, and that cool snow over the Rivendell - I love it. And all this is in excellent quality. The music is especially good this time: it is probably due to the length of the video that allowed for using many different compositions, but it was a pleasure to hear how they switch the atmosphere. I caught myself listening just to the music several times :D Not because it was distractive, it's just really good. I also love how accurately you provide the facts for or against each theory, especially that part with the last reconstruction of the Barad-dûr - I’ve never thought about it before, and I would probably have missed it. But the conclusion is the best part, in my opinion. You always make such strong endings for the videos, that they should be quoted. I totally agree that just the idea that a person can willingly, consciously and with no pressure be devoted to Sauron to the point where he was trusted to know so much of his thoughts, plans and designs, makes him a much deeper, stronger and scarier character than any of the theories. And it also highlights Tolkien's thoughts on the nature of Men - that due to their hasty ever-seeking nature they are easily prone to “evil” and even seem to seek for it because they get bored with prosperity and stability very fast. The Mouth of Sauron seems to be a thread that was meant to bind “The Lord of the Rings” with “The New Shadow”. Thank you for this amazing video, it was certainly worth the wait! I’d agree to wait half a year more for another video like this :D

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the comments on the production. I'm always trying to improve the editing but I think this one was a step up. A lot of that was to do with upgrades I made to software and even the hardware I'm using. Native 4K editing makes it look way better than what I was doing before! I always do the music last and I sometimes reuse music because I really think they fit - but I used a good variety this time. Couldn't use 1 track for 40 minutes or people would be driven insane by a 4 minute track looping 10 times. This is why the Appendices are especially good - The Tale of Years is exactly that but it is necessary for piecing together just when all of this stuff is happening. It's worth having it as a reference guide at least. I think about 70+ % of viewers don't make it to the end of the video but I like ending it in a good way. I'm happy if someone ends the video feeling that I've made my point and not just ending it abruptly. It's why the end clips usually just consist of images and don't distract with extra information on the screen. Someone else commented about the Mouth of Sauron and the New Shadow. I like that idea. I can imagine Fourth Age supporters of Sauron wishing they were someone like the Mouth but being lesser versions of him. It might not be half a year :D but I think the next long video will be a subject worthy of spending that extra time discussing. I have a few ideas in mind for that :)

@neant2046

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheRedBook I also like someone's idea that the Mouth of Sauron is a title passed from generation to generation, and then I can even imagine that he could appear again in the plot of the New Shadow, but not as the same person, but as a symbol of the "old evil". As for the next long video - no doubt it will be a topic worth a good discussion, very intriguing, looking forward to it :)

Exactly my issue with theories mixing up older versions but applying them to the later ones ,to twist to fit a narrative . It’s good you address this issue .

This is a lovely mixture of deep diving into Tolkien's lore and a calm, somber, quiet voice and music. It's wonderfully relaxing while satisfying my desire to fill in some gaps in my knowledge. Thank you for this!

@TheRedBook

Жыл бұрын

Very welcome Devin, thanks for checking it out :D

@himynameis3664

Жыл бұрын

Summed it up perfectly

I think the mouth of Sauron is, like many other details in the book, a hint to the larger world in wich the story take place. Not everything needs to be "resolved" and some misteries, like "Who Is the mouth of Sauron" are let to the readers to decide and maybe to meditate upon. That being said, in my two cents the Mouth Is a powerful man of Numenorean lineage, maybe heir to the darkest part of their lineage, since apart from the Lords od Andunie many of them where already in the Darkness by the end of the Second Age. Like hinted in "A New Shadow" It Is possible that some form of cult of Melkor, and hence of Sauron who faked o be Jim, or at least his servant, still lingered in the lands beyond Barad-dur, south or East.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Interesting thoughts but I especially like that you agree about this need to "resolve" everything. I call it the small universe. Every character needs to be related or know every other character, every event has to be known to all others, everything is linked. It's like Star Wars taking place in a galaxy but you can fly to another planet and bump into someone you know. This need to make everything known and explained.

@francoottone2481

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheRedBook Exactly as you said. Expecially in the Tom Bombadil case i think that that "urge to explain everything" misses the point. The beauty of Tolkien's work is in my opinion the "larger breath" of the world, where, not all the details have to "link", like you said, to known characters. After all the Red Book was written by Hobbits and they deem their story of frienship and Hope more important than some lost lore about Sauron's emissaries. But, still, i'm subscribed to your channel because i still enjoy some in depth thoght theory discussing things like "Who was the mouth of Sauron" or like "Sauron's knowledge on wizards". It feels like we're friends of Frodo and Elanor Gamgee discussing the stories that Sam, Pippin and Meriadoc told us when we were in our youth 😊

I’d never even heard of the last two of these theories. Well done debunking both, and I tend to agree with you on the first as well.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

I haven't heard much about the last one on KZread but it has been discussed on other sites - it's usually only accepted by the person posting it and the comments tend to rip it to pieces. The second one is definitely something I've encountered here and especially on Reddit and the old barrow-downs discussion boards. It's been around for a while!

I found this channel a month ago, and since then I have supremely enjoyed each of your videos. Each is on a fresh topic with information and discussions that you don’t see on any other Tolkien lore channel. As a longtime fan of all the books and movies your channel is like a breath of fresh air.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks a lot :) . The last thing I want to do is imitate or copy what other channels are doing but I pretty much just focus on what I'd like to do here and people seem to like it!

Another well thought out and thought provoking video! The Red Book has so quickly become my favorite Tolkien channel on KZread! You do so much more than just provide the random Tolkien fact of the day style content. Well done!

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Cheers, Tom! Tolkien Gateway exists to just read those facts, I'd get bored making a video like that. Though, maybe when I run out of ideas ;)

I agree with your opinion regarding The Mouth not being the last King of Gondor. One particular line of text you quoted stood out to me: "...and no living man saw him ever again." This seems to directly refute the idea that the King reemerged centuries later to confront Aragorn and the other mortal Gondorians and Rohirrim.

The most interesting thing to me is that he had forgotten his own name. Even if he was pure Black Numenorean, would he be old enough to forget his name? The most likely answer is that he was trained from a young age to forsake whatever name he was given and give himself fully to Sauron. Also, what does it mean that he learned sorcery? Exactly what powers does that entail considering he's just a man. While there is literally no reason to believe the following theory, I like to pretend the mouth was Herumor mentioned in "The New Shadow".

@rdmrdm2659

Жыл бұрын

Or it means that at this point he was so overwhelmed by the will of Sauron that ant person he himself might have once been has been swept aside, and his current role is all he is or can remember being.

You know, this is the only channel I’m subscribed to where I’ve watched every video in its entirety. Great work as always. I also love how you do not twist the story to “connect dots” that aren’t really meant to be connected. I see this all the time in “theory” videos. Not that it matters, though, but I love the realistic and rational approach in your presentation. Great work!

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

I'm honoured :D , you have even braved the early videos! I hope the difference between them and recent efforts is noticeable :D . And yeah, I always make it clear (and say it a few times in this video) that people can approach Tolkien's work in any way they wish but this need to connect the dots or make up theories that make no sense is a bit baffling to me. It would probably be harder for me to make a Tolkien theory about one I agree with :S - I tend to find holes in all the ones I encounter, or put it down to "You can believe that but the text doesn't really hint at that".

@alariatcg5853

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheRedBook I hear that! And yes, it IS noticeable. (But the quality of the first ones were already on point).

@br3030

2 жыл бұрын

definitely the only lotr channel where i went back and watched everything, and im glad i did

@tominiowa2513

2 жыл бұрын

The worst are the agenda driven hypothesis (they do not rise to the level of theory) by academics such as those who have taken over the Tolkien Society, and any that believe in "death of the author" interpretation. But at least we have a lawyer (Joshua at Tolkien Lore) to take some of them down.

I’ve read the Lord of the Rings plenty of times in my life; I had always assumed the messenger was just another unnamed servant of Sauron, but after this video I now believe you are correct and it was actually one of the Nazgul

This video was a superb work of art. I didn’t want it to end. You have become my new favorite source of rumination on Tolkien’s writings. Thank you

The quality of your work really stands out. There's almost no one going as thorough and in depth as you.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you Abel :)

As for the Mouth of Sauron I have always subscribed to a simpler explanation, one that has let me put it to rest whether right or wrong. I didn't even know about a couple of these theories, and I can see the temptation to debate them, but each side still leans toward identities which start with characters from some high stature. I think giving ourselves over to temptation seems exactly like what Sauron would want from this situation, plus it overlooks the so-called banality of evil, and its sheer, impatient efficiency. It doesn't have to be the case that there was anything noble or special about the character's origins at all, doubly so when you can bet any dark lord worth their salt would want to keep matters fairly hassle-free -- at least for themselves, though obviously they'd want to hassle others -- so for me my background filler has remained, and will continue to remain, he was hired using the Middle-Earth equivalent of a classified ad, "Need guy who likes to talk and wear fancy hats. Willingness to move a must. Low attachment to given name preferred. Good benefits!" Sounds like just the job for Stevie "Dork" Dunderputz, future employee of the month. You can try to think otherwise, stick to the loftier stories and scrabble for clues, but the Wise already know, indeed...

Your videos are absolutely enchanting. Im HAUNTED by what you are doing here. Each video has been impossible to pause. Thank you sir!

The appearance of Sauron on the battlefield and the Mouth of Sauron's appearance were goosebump moments for me.

Quite the length on this video X). Another masterpiece good-sir, had a question regarding many of your videos; the parts where there is 'text-reading' so to speak (not sure what else to call it), is it taken from the BBC Radio Drama or friends of yours reading the dialogue and text of LOTR?

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Check out the description, I have a link to his page. It's an unofficial audiobook created by Phil Dragash, on his own! I have permission to use the clips in my videos and helped support his efforts when he originally had them on KZread.

@thebrotherskrynn

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheRedBook Oh thanks so much! Seems kind of obvious to me now, haha really appreciate it, will definitely check it out!

Excellent work Mellon! KEEP IT UP! It's always nice to watch and hear your analysis. ELENDIL! ELENDIL! FOR THE WEST!

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Some of the best Tolkien content ever right here!

Absolutely fantastic summaries, thoughts, ideas, and unbiased opinions. Love your work!

@TheRedBook

Жыл бұрын

Thanks a lot :D !

Honestly, absolutely amazing video. I was worried about the length but never noticed the time pass

@TheRedBook

Жыл бұрын

Thanks! I haven't really made a video like this again (this length) but I am happy with how this one turned out. Maybe a topic in the future will be another long video :D

I put aside an hour I had, alone and quiet to watch this video and your Gandalf video. It was well worth the wait. It felt cinematic as well as academic, which is an interesting combination. Superb work as always. I know your opinion differs from mine, but I honestly do find your first few videos to be just as excellent as your last few videos, but I do notice the differences. Thank you and have a great day.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks, Alex. I am proud of the early videos but it's just funny seeing how simple they are now. If I was still making videos like that I'd get 3 out a week!

Loved this video. I had always enjoyed the idea that the Mouth of Sauron was the messenger sent to Dain. But the theory that he could be the last king of Gondor.. that actually broke my heart a little bit

I love the style you use when you make these. Excellent video as always!

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you, glad you are enjoying the content :)

Day off from work, gloomy morning, cup of hot coffee and a 40 minute video from The Red Book. I can't ask for more in this life.

We know that some groups of the Black Numenoreans continued to live to the south and east of Mordor, especially in Umbar, and we also know that these people and many other peoples from those areas have been allied or enslaved by Sauron at different times (sometimes allied simply as a convenience to further their ongoing wars against Gondor). I had always just assumed that this Mouth of Sauron was just a particularly high-ranking human from one of these areas, probably selected because of loyalty and Numenorean background. It's possible to see him as a person who is loyal and ambitious, but I always thought of him as being enslaved, tortured and twisted into obedience.

thanks for this deep dive on this character. I unfortunately watched the movies first, but even then I can remember being really intrigued by him when he comes forth from the black gate to parlay with Aragorn, Gandalf, Legolaus* & of course Gimli. His air of mystery, along with that creepy CGI mouth were just that disturbing.

Loved the long video. Helped the work shift go by quickly during my break. Thank you

Loving the longer format! You make very solid points about these three theories... Got me thinking about it myself, so sorry in advance for the word-salad ^^ My theory is that the Mouth of Sauron is more a title than a specific person: there are still many black Númenóreans along the eastern coast, and I imagine they would have continued the darkness-worshiping cults that had spawned in Númenór under the influence of their old pal Sauron. As for him being there "when the Dark Tower first rose again", I think it could be some sort of myth, though not one intended to be a deception. Indeed I find it strange that the writers of the Red Book would know exactly who the Mouth of Sauron is; and I don't believe they would have had any way of verifying that this person (whose name none remember) was truly one, single, thousands-of-years-old individual. Furthermore, he is described as a living man, not a spirit or monster : and Sauron had no way we know of that could extend a mortal's lifespan so dramatically without taking a major toll on his body. Had he had a Ring of Power, he would have faded centuries ago, and would no longer be "a living man". So, I suspect the historians and archivists from Minas Tirith and Rivendell, who contributed to the Red Book, may have filled in the many gaps in the Mouth's history with the assumption that he did live for centuries uncounted, through some sort of pact with Sauron. But I think it would make more sense if the "Mouth of Sauron" was a title, reserved for the most devoted of the fallen Númenoreans: and they would go through some dark ritual at the end of which they would forget their former life and only know themselves as "the Mouth of Sauron". And if it was continued and unbroken for thousands of years, one could argue that, in a way, the Mouth of Sauron never died. We have real-world examples of this : it was traditional in France, when the king had passed away, to say "the King is dead, long live the King!" in reference to the heir to the throne. It meant the charge of kingship passed immediately into the prince's hands, even before his own coronation : not only was the line of kings unbroken, but it was unceasing. And if, for generations, black Númenoreans did the same thing, naming a new Mouth whenever the one holding the title died, would it not be similar to a line of kings?

@istari0

2 жыл бұрын

I like the idea of it being a title passed down over the centuries. I can't think of any way it violates canon.

@neant2046

2 жыл бұрын

A good theory, I like it, I thought about it too.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

You raise interesting points that speak of the nature of Tolkien's writing. We are being told about where the Mouth came from, when he started serving Sauron - but it is entirely possible that the author of such words really didn't know such details. Like you say, it's almost like myth, tales being told about this time in Middle-earth and these are the explanations of such figures. The Red Book as you say. Cool point about the Mouth of Sauron as some title, almost like one chosen by servants of Sauron to represent them. Obviously, we are just speculating but that is a cool idea that could fit in Tolkien's world. It raises questions about the title itself, given by Sauron? or others? Why did Sauron 'bless' such a servant. I love the mystery surrounding this figure and almost don't want these questions answered but he's worthy of such discussion.

@Tacklepig

Жыл бұрын

It's very clearly meant to be a title, I've never even questioned that. The Mouth of Sauron is called that because he's a kind of herald, proclaiming his master's words to the world. Though it being a myth not meant for deception is really important. Imo that's what the "it is told" etc lines mean - Tolkien writes from the perspective of a historician translating ancient texts, so with these lines he indicates something being a myth or rumor that there's not a lot of evidence for in the present days. Not an unreliable narrator, but rather the narrator clearly marking a piece of information as less reliable.

@LeHobbitFan

Жыл бұрын

@@Tacklepig Very well put!

Although I entertain my own fan fiction, I keep in my head as a way of working out a difficult passage where ne context given is enough. I don't have all the books and I'm not very good at studying indepth. So, I REALLY appreciate all the hard work you've done here. Really. Thank you. I rely on all my favorite Lore channels to set me straight on the path.

Easily one of your best videos! I enjoyed this discussion very much. I love discussing the villains of Tolkien, especially ones who have that choice to be evil.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Villains are always the most interesting because you get to talk about what makes them evil in the first place. This is especially interesting in Tolkien due to nothing being "evil" in the beginning. Glad you enjoyed the video!

I loved this video ,for me the length was perfect ,keep them coming

No one on KZread talks about the legendarium so insightfully and articulately as you Blown away by your work abd quality keep it up

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks a lot :D

Only watched half of this video and I love it how logical faithful to source material you are when discussing these theories. Many Tolkien fans get carried away with such theories that they might end up enforcing a cool sounding theory even if it goes against established canon. I have also been guilty of this. If not that then trying to fill gaps with speculations that sound more like fanfic than something Tolkien could have written. For example theory of Maglor still being alive around second or even third age is popular among some people. I myself considered it to be intriguing and possible that he survived. Even though chapter in Silmarillion covering the events of first kinslaying in Alqualonde state presicely that he later died. At least in finnish translation of Silmarillion.

The art you use is incredible! I’ve never seen the piece in the thumbnail before, I love that style.

@TheRedBook

Жыл бұрын

Oh, that's a piece I had commissioned for this video. Ralph, the artist, managed to capture The Mouth of Sauron I imagined in my head. He managed to do it very quickly as well - I was shocked :D like he read my mind based on the description I gave him.

@willharper1326

Жыл бұрын

@@TheRedBook Are you serious?! That piece feels more like Tolkien than anything I have seen for a long time. I mean everything about it is perfect, and I can’t believe I didn’t know about this channel until now. Great video, I look forward to watching the others. Ralph seems to be a incredibly talented artist, that piece captures so much.

@TheRedBook

Жыл бұрын

For sure, he's a great artist. I've used commissioned artwork of his in a few videos. About 5 in this video are made by him for his video. He also shows up with some custom art in my Glorfindel video. He will have some new artwork in a video I will be making in October about Finrod. And yeah, the channel has had a nice push these last couple of weeks. Really happy a lot of people are finding it and giving it a boost :D . Quite a few more channels out here over the really big ones!

This was phenomenal! I will listen to this one multiple times! Thank you for your hard work

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks a lot :D certainly do that if you can spare the time haha

I have always thought of the mouth of sauron almost as a 'horcrux' of sauron. My theory is that its a part of him that he could muster to make a physical form until he could fully fulfil his own therefore the mouth of sauron is literally the mouth of sauron. I know this goes amongst lore in creating a physical being but just made the mouth of sauron seem more menacing in a way

a long but most awesome vid really enjoyed it looking forward to the next one

Love to hear Phil Dragash and seeing his fantastic job with The audiobooks! What a great and detailed video, very well done. Thank you. Subscribed.

@TheRedBook

Жыл бұрын

Thank you kindly :D

it took a few days bit by bit but this was really good work, I really enjoy your videos and narration! keep it up you're treating us to wonderful content

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Glad you got through it in the end :D . Hopefully, the timestamps helped? I wasn't expecting everyone to sit and take it in in one sitting.

Excellent! Logical and convincing. Great summary.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks again Dovid!

Subbed. What a well put together video man. So much effort must have gone in to researching this (easy when you love it) well done though. Such an interesting character, I always like the mystery around him. Left to my own imagination as to what kind of creature he was and what his history was

one of the bst lotr-lore channels if not the best, gonna watch all of your videos and i hope that you will make more, love this deep-dive lore stuff. Big thumbs up!

@ak-od7mf

3 ай бұрын

@TheRedBook already subscribed and checked it out thanks

Great content man. Really need to give a shout-out to the artwork you feature. I recognise some, not all, but it’s all fantastic.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

It is fantastic. I can't imagine how boring my videos would be if I didn't have artwork to use. And yeah, I commissioned several new pieces for this video, so at the moment, this will be the only place you can see them.

@keyseeker1

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheRedBook eagerly awaiting your next vid!

Probably just a living servant, twisted a bit by hanging around Sauron and his doings, possibly even one from one of the dark Numenoran lines that still had some purity in it akin to Aragorn's family line lending to him some greater age and such. Also possible he had access to one of the much lesser rings that Celebrimbor and Annatar created which were reportedly many and varied and which Sauron also tried to recover but for what reason never explained, but possibly for his higher servants or captains to wield; Which may have enhanced his abilities in some way along with twisting him mentally or physically.

1. I agree that the messenger was a ring wraith for the reasons you stated. I will add that I don't think he could've been the Mouth given that he came alone. The Mouth was too important to go alone that far and that would seem beneath his station. 2 & 3 never crossed my mind before. Black Numenoreans originally settled all along the southern coast and I assumed the Mouth was one of their descendants. Tolkien left mysteries in his world and this is what makes it so captivating; at least for me. All attempts at finite explanations just come off as cheap, but letting our minds wander through the possibilities is exactly what he wanted, I'm sure.

Really inciteful and awesome. I hope you do more long form videos

I think that giving us the minimum of information about a character or person adds to the mystery and/or horror of an evil person.

@tominiowa2513

2 жыл бұрын

A lack of information also works for good characters - how interesting would Tom Bombadil be if Tolkien had explained everything about him?

@holicekaderliiii6787

2 жыл бұрын

@@tominiowa2513 Very true. I had forgotten about Tom.

I have no memories of what happened after my fall in Minas Ithil, but with the destruction of the Ring, I can for sure rest in peace...

Incredible insight. Really look forward to your videos..

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks, Stephen :)

Regarding the Nazgûl's dealings with normal people, I always concluded that they could consciously suppress their "fear aura." I know there's something written in one of the "expanded Legendarium" books (History of Middle-earth, iirc) that seems to imply that their dread was involuntary and uncontrollable, but I just can't believe that they could have travelled around the Shire, questioning and interviewing random hobbits, without causing a massive panic bordering on a crisis if they were projecting the same level of terror as they do during battle. I know their power increased with Sauron's power over time and they would be capable of much larger-scale havoc during the Siege of Gondor than earlier on, and this might seem like a counterpoint. But during the Council of Elrond, Boromir described his soldiers in Osgiliath being taken by a mass hysteria similar to what we see during the final battles of the war, and that was before the Nazgûl came to the Shire. So based on this, I can only thing that Tolkien's idea of their power was that they had at least some control over it, and could reign it in when necessary.

Well, I completely agree with all of your lines of thought! And I really enjoyed your relentless logic. The fact was obvious to me - when I first read LOTR fifty years ago. The Mouth is a Numenorean - of descent, sure, but as much as Aragorn is. So, the extra long life is probably there making him and his kind feel superior to ordinary men. But most importantly, he would have a mind hardened into that last phase of Numenorean discontent about not being immortal. Thus the attraction to Sauron. But, and it was ever so with Sauron and Men,and how Sauron hinted at, and then ultimately promised he could deliver immortality. Either him or Melkor. The only kind of immortality Sauron could deliver created hollowed out ghosts, but the Numenoreans were addicts to the idea. I knew he was a man, maybe at least 100+ years old - like any unmixed descendant of Numenor - and probably mentally disturbed... but a man.

Big fan, and this is certainly one of the best videos on LotR out there. Thank you!

This is marvellous, as per usual. Thank you.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching :)

Great video as always. Made me think about the dynamic of Sauron and his servants. The Nazgûl were the only ones to be trusted really to give The One back to Sauron without the struggle ( if retrieved ). But Mouth of Sauron or anybody else in Dark Lords service…well that would be interesting indeed.

@tominiowa2513

2 жыл бұрын

It is implied that only another Maiar spirit such as Gandalf would be able to withstand Sauron's ability to bend others to his will where the possession of One Ring was concerned.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

I'd happily accept that the Mouth would hand it back - even if out of fear or pure servitude - but there might be some inner struggle there. At least with the Ringwraiths it's clear they cannot resist what Sauron wants, and wouldn't dream of it. I've always wondered what would have happened if some creature like Grishnakh found the ring...

Now that you mention it, we never do see Barliman Butterbur and the Mouth of Sauron at the same time, do we? :)

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

It's all falling into place!

Another great video. In my humble opinion, The Red Book is by far the best Tolkien channel on KZread together with Girl Next Gondor, but with a distinctively different style. Well done! Re the Mouth of Sauron, I think this creepy character should be read in the wider context of the true meaning of the Legendarium, that is essentially Tolkien's lifelong deep dive (very deep indeed...) into the nature of men and their complex relationship with Death, Evil and Power developed through the use of Legend and Miths. In this grand, multifaceted painting the Mouth represent possibly one of the scariest aspects of mankind the free, unforced and native lust for absolute evil and power (always two sides of the same coin in Tolkien's secondary world) that characterise some members of our race. He reminds me of the top Nazi party officials - in most cases average, uninspiring men animated at heart by pure evil who quickly rose to great power by serving and worshipping another sort of real Dark Lord and fell miserably to nothing when his wicked design of absolute world domination crumbled to dust. Definitley a far more sinister charachter than the Wringwraiths who, at least, could 'claim' the extenuating circumstance of being inslaved to their master's will by the One Ring and had no free will left of their own - not that this justifies their evil actions of course, starting with the freely taken decision of accepting the rings of power to gain more evil knowledge in the first place. The Mouth is just a man with a truly black heart, and his existence is way more alarming than being the result of an artificial manipulation through the use of 'a machine' such as the ring. In Tolkien's universe, he embodies what Hannah Arendt defined the Banality of Evil in relation to the tragic life arc of the Nazi top dog Adolf Eichmann. It'd be interesting to know if the catholic Tolkien thought that even this truly dark charachter had, or deserved, a chance of redemption. Unfortunately, we can only speculate and will never know for sure.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

I think everyone is worthy of redemption in Tolkien's Legendarium. If figures like Morgoth and Sauron can get offered the chance over and over, then someone like the Mouth would certainly have opportunities. You speak of him much as I did in the video, as someone who was the prime mover in his own corruption. It seems he would refuse his own chance and would have to seek redemption himself -- but he seems like one who would not want it. Maybe like other evil figures, he only finds it in death.

Keep it up, great videos. The detail is welcome.

Yes the thing that remains a bit of a mystery is Sauron was not a name he used for himself, it was a name in Quenya that literally translates as “the abhorred”. In Sindarin, it is translated as Gorthaur from gor ("horror, dread") and thaur ("abominable, abhorrent"). His original name was Mairon and this is what he used in Numenour he also called himself Annatar (lord of gifts) when he was acting in secrecy to decieve the Elves. We don’t really know what the called himself after this as he kept it secret. Sauron was if anything an insult, so for the Mouth of Sauron to use this is a bit strange. However, what else is he going to do - he probably did it just for simplicity so they knew who he was talking about. To my mind he was a politician servant, along the lines of Grima Wormtongue but far more twisted and powerful. He was a black numenorian who used his ambition to gain power in the service of Sauron. Sauron must have had other men acting as his servants, in his dealings with the Easterlings and other wicked men, unlikey that he would have used Orcs or ringwraiths for this. No matter how evil Sauron was managing his empire still required the boring things like administration and communication with the races under his control, he mist have had people to do this. The Nazgul i doubt would be much good for things like business administration and diplomacy, Saurons goal was always the efficient ordering of the world with him as a dictator. I think the MOS was, or saw himself as a Steward of Mordor.

Awsome content..your best video yet..they keep getting better..no Need to excuse yourself for the length no problem for me anyway. again wonderful choice of artwork during the entire video.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Was happy to get some designs that I wanted for this video - artwork related to the Mouth of Sauron is severely lacking! There will be more of these longer videos in the future, for sure.

Perhaps, the Mouth of Sauron was like TV Boss Undercover... actually Sauron. (Probably more like Adam Driver on SNL.). It was his way of getting out there and participating.

You have taken a topic that seems unimportant and made it quite interesting to me. Please keep making these. You are very good at explaining Tolkien's work. Would you mind explaining your background? I'm picturing you as a literary professor or something similar. In regards to my theory, I look at the Mouth of Sauron somewhat like I look at Tom Bombadil. Not in power, but in that they're both an unexplained mystery with no clear answer regarding their origins or what they are. Your statement at 36:18, "This leaves room for me to make up what I want doesn't it?" had me rolling in my chair.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

I agree with you in your approach to Tom Bombadil and the Mouth of Sauron. I also think that not everyone or everything needs to be categorised. Even Tolkien himself has said "I don't know" when asked about certain figures, when he could have just sat and made up an explanation on the spot. I'm also glad such a topic has been made interesting. I'm also not someone who really dives into fan theories often - but some are worthy of a bit of discussion, if even to just moan about them being theories in the first place. A literary professor? I wish! Unfortunately for me, my job has nothing to do with Tolkien or books. I do software/firmware engineering. World's away from Tolkien :D

I like this Barliman Butterbur in a mask theory.

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

I should have spent 20 minutes of it on that one...

@MantisEnergy

2 жыл бұрын

IT IS SAID by some that the mouth of Sauron was Barliman Butterbur. "A fat innkeeper who only remembers his own name because people shout it at him all day".

This was awesome as usual. The Red Book is the best Tolkien channel

Man, great work! I must admit, I kind of like the Earnur theory as an idea. There's no way it wouldn't have come up long before the War of The Ring though.

Thanks for your channel and content 🙏 , I really enjoy your style and approach to Tolkien

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Cheers, John! No need to thank me, I enjoy it, and always like to see that others are as well.

@johncheffy4775

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheRedBook when you love what you do !!!

Wow what a great video. Many thanks. I always think there’s something especially interesting about this character because the Mouth of Sauron is an obvious complement to Eye of Sauron. The character also refers to “Sauron the Great” while the Eye is occasionally referred as the Great Eye. I dont know what that would imply (could Sauron “possess” a mortal?) but I have to imagine Tolkien is suggesting that MoS is far more than a servant. It certainly fits Sauron’s m.o. to hide in plain sight.

@Tacklepig

Жыл бұрын

I don't think that's the implication at all. I think "Mouth of Sauron" simply implies that he's a herald proclaiming his master's words. The same way nowadays we call public relations people of a company or organization a "mouthpiece".

Perhaps forgetting his own name was simply an indication of how completely his mind was under Sauron's influence. Like someone in a cult. They develop a cult identity and have to rediscover who they were/are if and when they get out.

Great video, man! Nice

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks, Christian!

5:45 I got scared so bad that high pitch wine freaked me out

Great video. Lots of information covered. Headcanon in works of fantasy work out the same as UPG in various pagan reconstruction religions, and indeed in religion as a whole; it helps bridge the gape between two seemingly innocuous bits of information. So, it’s understandable that people would want to fill in those gaps. The problem is when they start to believe their own UPG as if it were canon to the story. With the primary author now being dead, we will never have that answer from the primary source of the books. However, I’d say that the writer and director of the films could be asked their opinion on these events for their films, and those opinions would be equally as relevant to the films as Tolkien’s opinion would be to the books.

Thanks for your another godlike quality video content sir. Keep it up man🔥

@TheRedBook

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for checking it out! :)

A good description of the theories and well reasoned arguments of why the first is not particularly likely and the second and third are virtually impossible to justify. It is known that the Nine were seeking Baggins and the Shire, so it is not unreasonable to suppose it might be one of them who went to the Dwarves to find that information. Any other who served Sauron, might, if they found the ring first, claim it for their own. The Nazgul could not.

These theory videos are amazing, anthropologically speaking. Talking about textual evidence for theories within a story supposes that the authors or author did indeed have every single angle covered and that every single choice was made to withstand the scrutiny of millions of questioning minds throughout the rest of time. It supposes that there is one answer and that it will reveal itself if we just dig deep enough. It does not, however, seem to allow for the other likely possibility that perhaps the author is fallible. Perhaps the author hadn't got that far in their thinking about what, or who certain plot points meant or where different characters came from. I'm not implying that this video is anything less than awesome. I really think it is! It is such a joy to go over the plot points and I truly love the debate and the level of detail people get into when it comes to this universe, but it doesn't take a whole lot of imagination to see the parallels of a friendly disagreement amongst LOTR fans about a character's origins based on differing interpretations of a central sacred text and then flashing forward 20 generations to multiple religious factions at war with each other over those interpretations. The nature of which has become central to their understanding of their over-all religion. Anyway, cool video!

This was a good one. Who knew an in-depth video on a minor creepy character from LOTR could be so engrossing? Not me, I can tell you that. Consider me schooled.

Really wish we seen more of the Mouth of Sauron in the Peter Jackson epics

I want to pose a theory, which I suspect will get shot down, but which I need to get off my chest. I am a huge Tolkien fan, but I know there are fans who pour over the books, the history, and just go over the details with fine-tooth comb. You guys have my admiration and respect. So with that, here's my theory on who the Mouth of Sauron is/was. I think The Mouth of Sauron is non other than Ar-Pharazôn. Yes, Eru drowned Numenor and caused Middle Earth to change from flat to round, and in the same deluge, sank Ar-Pharazôn and his men into the Caves of the Forgotten (only to be opened on the day of Dagor Dagorath). But consider this: Sauron corrupted Ar-Pharazôn and turned him evil through black magic and Melkor worship. Now Morgoth was chained and in the void. This implies that Sauron taught Ar-Pharazôn how to reach into the void - even if slightly. If you will, liken this to dwarves mining caves; slowly chipping away until they reach precious stones which can be fashioned into jewels. It is possible that, in his time in the Caves of the Forgotten, Ar-Pharazôn could've used his forbidden knowledge to either 1) escape from the Caves of the Forgotten, 2) make contact with Morgoth - one who could have easily prolonged his life, or 3) both. Let's return to The Black Gate. The Mouth of Sauron was parlaying with Aragorn and Gandalf The White - formally Gandalf The Grey (an important detail which I will return to shortly). Aragorn, representing the line of the kings which descended from Numenor, is contrasted with The Mouth of Sauron - The Black Numenorian. Gandalf, who was once Gandalf The Grey became Gandalf The White after his fight with the Balrog of Moria. He died but was sent back by Eru to fulfill his mission. What if The Mouth of Sauron is the inverse of both Aragorn AND Gandalf. First of all, The Mouth of Sauron is a man and not a miar. He is opposite of Aragorn in his choice of darkness over light but opposite of Gandalf insofar as race is concerned. Secondly, assuming for the sake of argument that he is Ar-Pharazôn escaped from the Caves of the Forgotten, that would make him the exact opposite of Gandalf in terms of deeds. Gandalf fell and came back to life through Eru illuvatar. If The Mouth of Sauron is Ar-Pharazôn, and if he used his dark magic to both escape the Caves of the Forgotten and make contact with Morgoth, he would have fallen but his life could've been restored and extended by Morgoth. In essence, this would make him an inverse of Gandalf as well. I would like to end this theory with The Mouth of Sauron's introduction in Return of the King: "At its head there rode a tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse, if horse it was; for it was huge and hideous..., and in the sockets of its eyes and in its nostrils there burned a flame. The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: 'I am the Mouth of Sauron.'" The keyword there being "forgotten." Perhaps that was a clue or perhaps I'm reaching here. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

I am with you on the Lask King of Gondor theory... He and his company were never seen again kinda implies they were slaughtered for their audacity in daring to confront Sauron as some sort of equal. Tolkien would have said the Mouth of Sauron was the last King. Thats an interesting story and an important occurance in the history... Sauron's puppet would be the rightful heir to the throne and you can bet Sauron would be using that to supplant Denethor and take Gondor without a fight. He would rather dominate than destroy. He offers every single kindgom that opportunity before bringing war to them... to be an ally (slave) rather than be destroyed. Thats his M.O. Thats what Sauron wants... to control and manipulate to create the balance in the world he thought it needed. He wasn't evil for evil's sake... he was like a Bond villian, he had ambitions to "fix" everything wrong as he saw it, he despised the free will of the people and the chaos it allowed. Its not mentioned once is the elaborate and concise histories Tolkien invented for the world he created, and Tolkien was very longwinded and thorough.

Well done! Thank you

Great video - to bad you weren’t consulted for The Rings of Power. I love Tolkien’s lore for its beauty, detail and (generally) internal logic and consistency.

Imagine what Amazon could have done with the 9 rings. Start off with good king, pressed by the needs of his kingdom, either given a ring of power a trusted advisor OR accepting a dangerous ring because he's desperate to save his people. You could do a whole season of the king using the tool of evil for good purposes, slowly being worn down not like Gollum, more like Denethor being worn by the seeing stone. You could do 7 seasons like that. With the ending known but the plot still uncertain. I figure you can't do that with the Witch King or Kamul. But hey, Girl Boss Gardeners and Roid Rage Galadriel works too, I guess....

This is good shit. I like just a blanket theory that the Mouth was perhaps a noble Black Numenorean and leave it at that

Theory 1: I do think you make a good case that the messenger to the Dwarves was a Ringwraith, though it's not certain, and the text does specifically say that the Mouth of Sauron was a living man and *not* a Ringwraith. Theory 2: Sauron knows perfectly well how to make Rings. What is to stop him from making a lesser ring for the Mouth (and perhaps other important servants)? Maybe a ring whose main function is to prolong life, along with probably making its wearer subservient to Sauron? The Mouth has made himself valuable to Sauron; I can imagine Sauron choosing to prolong the lives of his most valuable servants. Or is Sauron now too immaterial to be able to make Rings? He was material enough to wear the One Ring when Isildur cut it from his hand, and that weakened him, but he regained a lot of his strength in the time leading up to the destruction of the Ring. It's not clear whether he was still capable of making lesser rings or not. One could also say that perhaps Sauron had long ago made some lesser rings (or practice magic rings while he was learning how to make stronger Rings), and stashed them somewhere for future use -- but as far as I know there is no evidence of that. One minor point in favour of the Mouth of Sauron possessing a lesser ring that extended his life is that the reconstruction of Barad-dur began 68 years before the Mouth appeared at the gates of Mordor. Even assuming he began his service "when it [the Dark Tower] first rose again" as a boy or very young man, he must be at least around 80 years old, as the rebuilding started in 2951 T.A. and he appears in 3019. Yes, the Numenoreans were originally long-lived, but if I'm not mistaken they gradually lost their longevity the more they coveted immortality, and they were no longer any longer-lived than we are -- so age 80-plus seems like it's pushing plausibility a little. Theory 3: This one seems to come out of left field. While there's nothing specific against the possibility that the Mouth is Earnur, there doesn't seem to be anything specific in its favour either -- and wouldn't there be a likelihood, if Sauron had corrupted someone as important as the last king of Gondor into his most faithful human servant, that Sauron would want to publicize this success rather than hide it? So I agree with you about Theory 1 and Theory 3 -- neither one seems to work very well. Theory 2, with the Mouth possessing a lesser magic ring that serves mostly to prolong his life, seems plausible though unconfirmed. It would still be consistent with the Mouth being a very willing servant to Sauron, if his ring only lengthened his life and didn't compel servitude. The issue then becomes one of just how valuable the Mouth was to Sauron. If he was a highly valuable servant, then it would be worthwhile to keep him around as long as possible by giving him a minor ring -- especially since human lives must seem extremely short to Sauron. The Mouth himself clearly thought he was extremely valuable, since he expected to be given custody of Isengard -- but did Sauron value him as much as he believed? Sauron had to make *someone* his herald, and had to have supervisors of lesser slaves, but is there evidence that the Mouth is more than just a herald and (probably) a supervisor?

With the qualitiy of your videos, the longer the better!

I think he’s actually Sauron’s mouth, like he’s detachable