Oh boy. This'll get some heat, I'm sure. Anyway, if you want to help the channel, go support me on Patreon! www.patreon.com/harbowholmes

@batmanbeyond5766

2 жыл бұрын

why? i thought everybody hated this episode

@WoofInationXP

2 жыл бұрын

@@batmanbeyond5766 same, Everyone I know doesnt like it

@tidmouthmilk12

2 жыл бұрын

"Despising the defended"

@qsquared8833

2 жыл бұрын

I have to admit, when I saw the start of the episode, with time broken, I thought for sure it was going to be continued into the next season, it should have been a full season to kind of go through all of time happening at once.

@CashelOConnolly

2 жыл бұрын

@Harbo , my professor at Trinity College Dublin asked me to sum up the white English middle class in two words, I said “Harbo Wholmes” 🤣🇮🇪☘️💚

You know what i'd love to see in who? a villain who dies in their first encounter with the doctor, but then appears later due to the doctor meeting earlier versions of them. this means that the doctor has to keep stopping the villain while also keeping them from dying to prevent a paradox, all without being able to tell them why for fear of another paradox.

@jbcatz5

2 жыл бұрын

In the audio Peri and the Piscon Paradox the Sixth Doctor ends up defeating an alien before he could do so as the Fifth Doctor, who is about to arrive in that time period. He has to dress up as the alien to keep the memories of his Fifth self intact, but gets quickly frustrated that his genial predecessor won’t get as violent as he needs to (“I’m dressed as a fish, and I’m fighting a wetter fish!”) The Eminence gets introduced with the Sixth Doctor knowing about it from an encounter he had with it as the Fourth Doctor (gotta love release schedules) but in his Eighth incarnation ends up caught up in the circumstances around its creation.

@R.senals_Arsenal

2 жыл бұрын

@@jbcatz5 The Eminence is a great villain! Imagine if the TV show were run with the same love and dedication and creativity as Big Finish!

@jbcatz5

2 жыл бұрын

Robert M Fantasically scary, Seeds of War and Time’s Horizon drip in atmosphere

@Pub2k4

2 жыл бұрын

So, essentially the story River Song, except as a villain who stays bad. I like it

@sebapond

2 жыл бұрын

i mean the Great Intelligence was a villian that died and then reappeared at the season finale.

Here's another plothole - Why would Madame Kovarian, or anyone in the galaxy would be tricked that the Doctor died as his 11th incarnation, if they have records of him dying years later on Tranzalore? And why would they believe he dies there if there's 12th and 13th Doctors running around the galaxy announcing themselves to everyone.

@Spyciality

2 жыл бұрын

Because how would everyone have records of the doctors death on trenzalore? Then everytime someone he knew was captured they would just take him there, even the Daleks didn’t know And The Doctor can’t go back into his own time stream so the only way anyone would know the doctors still alive is if he/she went back to their enemies years before, and it probably isn’t true to the story but since the crack is a tear in space and time, I like to think that it changed the future creating any possibilities which ended with the 12th Doctor reincarnation

@HiperPivociarz

2 жыл бұрын

@@Spyciality Except we see people from different races who know the prophecy of Trenzalore, and share it with others. So clearly this isn't something only the Doctor knows. The Silence especially wouldn't be tricked, cause Tasha Lem is still there, monitoring the Doctor. "Hey, Tasha Lem, it's Madame Kovarian, the plan worked, the Doctor is dead!" "No he's not." "What do you mean?" "He's still here, on Trenzalore, alive and well, so he couldn't have died in the past."

@HiperPivociarz

2 жыл бұрын

@Sic Semper Tyrannis But Twelth Doctor appears during the saving of Gallifrey, before Eleventh even went to Trenzalore, so he was always part of the original future. I would've asked what woulf rewrite the timeline, since there's no time traveller interfering with the events, so everyone should be making the decisions they did in Timeline 1 where Doc dies, but the fact Doctor knows of his fate on Tranzalore and is a time traveller probably means these events play out differently every time he learns of his fate.

@Spyciality

2 жыл бұрын

@@HiperPivociarz okay sorry I completely forgot what we were talking about, but the Daleks knew that the doctor was actually on his 12th incarnation on Trenzalore so even if he did escape, the only people who would have known the doctor regenerated was the Daleks who all died,And Tasha Lem killed herself during the siege so she couldn’t have said anything , The Timelords changed the significance of Trenzalore so it will pretty much be forgotten after they closed the crack so literally nobody could have known the doctor lived, hell even the doctor didn’t know he would live and still thinks they should be dead What I would like to mention is that the doctor was trapped in a confession dial for 4.5 billion years, the universe grew without him there until he went back, so doesn’t that mean the flux would have killed him ? It tore space and time so I would assume so

@HiperPivociarz

2 жыл бұрын

@@Spyciality My point is he says he faked his death at Lake Silencio to trick everyone. But everyone knows he dies on Trenzalore, especially the Silence who is fighting with him there concurently, while the Kovarian chapter is targetting the Doctor's past. Kovarian would immediately know her plan failed, because Tasha Lem would tell her "Nope, he's still here". Why is there a record of his death at Lake Silencio if everyone was on Trenzalore and saw him fighting them. A lot of the races he's fighting have time travel capabilities, not to mention people would talk about it in years following the war, so you'd think people like Teselecta would know about it.

My favorite part of this episode was 11 arguing with Dorian that he can run as long as he wishes since no one can tell him what to do, as long as he get to the fixed point eventually. He then calls up his old friend the Brigadier to show that since he has a time machine he can have more adventures, only to discover he had died and that the doctor had never visited thereby locking that into stone as fixed history. Truly a tragic way to show that knowing the end locks in the journey

Maybe the fixed point isn't the death of the doctor in general but the murder or the doctor by River Song. She needs to go to the Stormcage for future stuff to work, so by surviving in secret, the doctor hasn't negated the crime bit which is the fixed point

@TheDoctorOfThrills

2 жыл бұрын

I'll bump this, especially considering that it justifies her never feeling bad about it. Shes in jail for a murder that wasnt committed,

@magica3526

Жыл бұрын

@@TheDoctorOfThrills kinda fucked that she goes to prison for the rest of her life so the doctor can keep his secret identity for a couple more years

@deadpooldan9862

Жыл бұрын

@@magica3526 to be fair, she’s in prison for 5 minutes of the day then breaks out to go on adventures, so jail isn’t really a punishment for her, since she just breaks out every day anyway

@kieronparr3403

7 ай бұрын

The nearest I can think of that makes sense.

@MarioRossiAncora

5 ай бұрын

This! It seems pretty obvious to me. The insistence of the season on records and collective memory makes a whole lot of sense once we understand that the point was people wanting the Doctor dead. It's not about biology, it's about a murder case.

I've always seen this episode as one of those "I see what you're doing, but this isn't how you do it." Kind of thing. Definitely needed two parts (at least)

The one part of the episode I liked was the scene with Churchill and Doc slowly realizing they're defending themselves from the Silence.

@FanOfFictionalCharacters

6 ай бұрын

i would agree with you but imo it's kind of just a rehash of the scene in day of the moon with amy in the orphanage

“Why do clocks exist if time always stays the same” Because clocks DO exist. It’s everything in history jumbled together. Clocks exist, therefor they are present.

@tomnorton4277

Жыл бұрын

Exactly. Pretty simple explanation. The clocks simply fell into the constant present that River created along with everything else. Saying that clocks shouldn't have existed is as nitpicky as complaining about Charles Dickens being on TV. I'll bet if the clocks HADN'T been there, Harbo would have complained that the episode had no definitive visual proof that time had stopped.

@ginge641

Жыл бұрын

@@tomnorton4277 The fact that people like you still exist in critical discourse is baffling to me.

@tomnorton4277

Жыл бұрын

@@ginge641 Of course logical explanations are baffling to idiots.

@tzarg

2 ай бұрын

"why would anyone create a clock-face with other hours on" it's because they already have! also, it's said in the episode that the doctor and river are the only ones actually experiencing time during the alternate universe, and personally I've interpreted this as new things being practically unable to be made, as in this timey wimey universe the past literally does not exist and the future is an even more screwed up reality then before where time didn't progress forward at all (except for specifically the Doctor's personal timeline)

@erosion271

2 ай бұрын

@@ginge641 he spoke facts

10:57 - Time wasn't tricked, the Doctor faking his death was what the fixed point was this whole time. Everyone just thought the fixed point was the Doctor's death, because they thought he died.

@theemeraldcrown1

Жыл бұрын

I agree, time was changed because River Song decided to drain the shots that should have hit him the first around.

@lawrence-1

19 күн бұрын

that’s genius!!

"Enjoy the vibes and just don't think about it" sums up the whole Eleventh Doctor era honestly

@yaboi9183

2 жыл бұрын

He has some really good moments just some parts of this episode aren't those good moments he's also my first doctor so maybe I'm just a little biased who knows

@Milk88488

2 жыл бұрын

Nah he had a lot of incredible episodes, most were great.

@tf9429

2 жыл бұрын

Thats most of the 11th and 12the era alot of silly episodes and poor writing and alot of it being improved by Matt and Peter's acting imo

@warrenny1168

2 жыл бұрын

@@yaboi9183 youre not the only one i rate matt smith second after Tennant for quality. Capaldi is good but he has less great episodes then matt smith imo

@louisalectube

2 жыл бұрын

New Who has always been like this since the beginning, unfortunately.

I think you're misunderstanding the fixed point thing here. It's essentially the same as the ending to Steins Gate, and is one of the standard get-out-of-jail-free cards for time travel stories. You can't alter an event that you've already seen, because of the grandfather paradox - if that event never happened, then you never had a reason to go back and alter it, so who prevented it from happening? It's one of the few rules in Who time travel that tends to be consistently applied - no going back into your own time stream. The loophole is that it's not the event itself that's fixed, it's only your *perception* of the event - so long as any changes you make still result in past-you seeing the same thing, they still have the same reason to go back in time to avoid it happening, and so the paradox is avoided.

@VeracityLH

2 жыл бұрын

Kind of like the doctor stated in The Doctor Dances. "History says a bomb exploded on this site. Who am I to argue with history?" To which Rose replies "Usually the first." We know that what "history" says and what really happened aren't necessarily the same thing. So that's a good way to look at it.

@fellinuxvi3541

Жыл бұрын

Sort of, but I think by now there's an established difference between a regular grandfather paradox and a fixed point in time.

@MarioRossiAncora

5 ай бұрын

Exactly! The season insists on how important it is that the universe and the silence think the Doctor is dead. Not that hard, actually.

Alright, this episode is mostly a mess, but I will defend the Tesselecta cop-out as making sense (even if it's crap from a writing perspective). The fixed point stipulates that the Doctor needs to be *observed* to die at Lake Silencio. It was always the case that the Doctor was aboard the Tesselecta when that happened. That's the event that was fixed; the Tesselecta getting blown away by River. That's why River draining her weapons destroys time, because that wasn't part of the fixed series of events.

Without rewatching, so much of Moffat's arc heavy stuff feels like some kind of a fever dream.

I like to think I'm pretty good at understanding convoluted Doctor Who stories. I pride myself on it 11 years later I still struggle to make heads or tails of this one.

@doctorwhoredux

2 жыл бұрын

I can explain it for you, it's pretty basic actually

@bloodyneptune

2 жыл бұрын

River doesn't kill him, the universe breaks, he convinces her to kill him to fix everything. Turns out the whole time he was in one of those giant robots. The destruction of the robot and the universe beliving he was dead was the fixed point.

@hyhena-gaming9986

2 жыл бұрын

@@bloodyneptune pretty much

@tylerboothman4496

2 жыл бұрын

The future Doctor dies at the beach. Amy and Rory continue with their timeline thinking he died, and tries to save him. The past doctor figures out everything over the season. To keep time from breaking, he has to survive while making Any and Rory think he died, so they can do their same timeline that results in the doctor surviving. If the Doctor doesn't die at the beach, then Amy and Rory don't help him survive, which means he does die at the beach.

@vannisy7971

Жыл бұрын

@@doctorwhoredux you can't, because you didn't.

There could have been more to this finale but I’ll always love it. My favorite moment is Amy confronting Madame Kovarian for what she did to River.

The fixed point isn't necessarily connected to The Doctor's LITERAL demise, but the events that "seem" to unfold at that specific time and space. It's sort of similar to the bootstrap paradox in Before The Flood, where The Doctor sees himself as a ghost, and thus makes it so that there is a ghost version of him due to a hologram by going back in time. In a world with time travel, you can watch a person jump off a cliff, but as long as you don't view them hitting the bottom, you can always go back in time to save them. Your past point of view will have stayed the same, keeping the timeline intact. But, it would happen that you going back to save them, and them not dying, was what unfolded in the first place. You just saw the exterior of things, not knowing the details. If someone falling off that cliff is a fixed point in time, their DEATH can be taken out of the picture merely by assumption. If the people who deem it a fixed point do not actually view in full detail the death of that person, then there is room to shift things enough to save their life.

What a great two part opener this season had, great mystery and suspense around the doctor's death and learning about River. This finale just unwinds all of those threads in the quickest, least meaningful and most insubstantial way it possibly could. I really liked the buildup through season 6, what a shame this happened.

'Closing Time' definitely should have been sacrificed to give this finale two episodes. I felt at the time that the arc stuff was half-hearted and needed to be seeded consistently throughout the whole run in order to work. The fact that 'Night Terrors' and 'Black Spot' were switched didn't help matters either, as the former doesn't mention the events of the mid season finale at all. Such a shame as it did start so well - Moffatt needed someone like RTD to reign him in as his ideas are great but undisciplined. Series 6 was where my enthusiasm for Doctor Who started to wane a little.

@kyllerbuzcut

2 жыл бұрын

They definitely should've just cancelled night terrors. But the arc of s6 was the best one in all of new who! After S5, and before 6 was finished being written, there was a bit of a writer's revolt at the BBC. The other writers demanded more control and wanted to be less constrained by having to put arc plot into episodes they wanted to write. They wanted more monster of the week style to do whatever they want. This is why S6 and 7 ended up airing in 2 parts. You can definitely tell S7 is now like individual stories, but somehow Moffat still managed to put some continuing story in there. The narrator mentions that the doctor ended up getting people to forget about him, which was great. And how the show should be We shouldn't just be expecting the people of earth to shrug off an alien invasion one week, just for 2 weeks later, to be surprised when they find out aliens exist again for the 100th time. But then we had that all power of 3 episode, where Chibnall threw all that back on our faces. That was a warning of things to come when he became showrunner. Somewhat ironically, Chibnall, who complained about wanting more autonomy from the showrunner, ended up wanting full control over all the writers, and more control over the arcs himself, refusing to work with a lot of the writers that had done great stories, and employing new ones who would do his bidding.

@chrissonofpear1384

2 жыл бұрын

@@kyllerbuzcut I would probably have dropped 'Night Terrors', yes.

@andrewraphael3800

6 ай бұрын

@@tvguy61 Night Terrors was filmed in Block 1, and AGMGTW and Black Spot were filmed in Block 4. I imagine the decision to switch episodes was taken during filming Blocks 2&3, hence why they were able to film an additional cameo for Avery & son (which probably wasn't part of the initial draft script).

Imagine if the series 6 finale ended with the Doctor actually, properly dying and staying dead. Then the Christmas special revolves around a story seeing something happening that brings the Doctor back and the special focuses on what it is and what it means.

Everything. Everything went wrong.

@IaMaPh1991

2 жыл бұрын

Guess they forgot to put their grasses on

@drewstevens2532

Жыл бұрын

@@IaMaPh1991 based Beserk reference

Just River being forced to shoot The Doctor, but then discovering he’s in the robot would have been fine for the finally. That was quite clever. All the sideway world stuff that Amy somehow remembers after makes it hard to take the rest of the series seriously.

I just want to take a second to point out just how many characters Mark Gaitss has played in Doctor Who

The main thing that bothered me about this episode is that he did what he did to trick everyone into thinking he is dead. Only for him to soon after be told that he was going to die at trenzalore, meaning everybody knew he didn't die. I would've shrugged it off if literally every race didn't show up at trenzalore to kill him. If everyone knew he was going to die at trenzalore then why would he need to trick them into thinking he died in the first place. Idk I liked this episode when I first saw it, but after recently rewatching all of new who I realised how pointless this episode is, all it did was marry river and the doctor, but there were so many ways that this could've done something way more emotional. If Moffat waited till the towers of duruliam to marry them, it would've added much more emotional weight to river slowly accepting that she's never going to see him again. Only to visit the library, to see that her newlywed husband doesn't even know who she is, and she dies. Idk, this episode bothers me now😂

@marior.5796

5 ай бұрын

Wasn't it so that the Doctor didn't know at that time that he should die on Trenzalore and thought instead he should die on Lake Silencio. The reason he thought this, was due to the Church of the Papal Mainframe, later known as the Church of the Silence, which did try to create a new fixed point in time where the Doctor dies, because of the events on Trenzalore, which did force the Church of Silence to go into the silent mode. The fact that nobody can kill the Doctor, many enemies can speak of experiences, except of a Time Lord, entry River Song, did force the church of Silence to kid nap and train River Song to kill the Doctor on Lake Silencio to create a fix point in time, which they thought would kill the Doctor definitively without a way out. For this reason the Doctor tricked everyone into thinking he is dead. It is all a little bit timey wimey stuff. "I have no idea where he picks that stuff up…"

see, the thing that really fucks me off about this story (and resolution) is the fact that the resolution is “oh the Doctor is inside the teselecta… despite the fact it’s explicitly started the Doctor DIES and he’s deffo not a copy and his death is deffo NOT a trick.” And to add to that… the solution/workaround of his death is not even thinkable/available to consider to the viewer as the solution until “Let’s Kill Hitler” so you couldn’t even figure it out until episode 8 or whatever it was it just makes the the quote from Canton Everett Delaware III mean NOTHING. He says “it’s deffo the Doctor” or whatever, but its NOT. Not at all.

My headcanon is that the Doctor knows it's a fixed point but he/she doesn't have to know what it entails, just that whatever did happen has to happen. The fixed point is the tesselector being destroyed while everyone thinks it's the doctor. Time isn't tricked as well, time knew exactly what was going to happen the whole time.

@theguyyouhate

2 жыл бұрын

the fixed point is that "the doctors death needs to be confirmed". the fact that the confirmation is wrong doesn't change the fact that in that fixed moment the doctors death is confirmed by the people who need to confirm it. it's also like the idea that him laying low meant nothing... well yes because we aren't following loinear time here so the doctors faked death doesn't mean he would always be presumed dead.

@tylerboothman4496

2 жыл бұрын

Basically, for the Doctor to survive, Amy and Rory have to THINK he dies, so they continue on with the younger Doctor, discover the tesselecta, and the Doctor figures out how to secretly survive while making Amy and Rory think he didn't. When River doesn't shoot him, she breaks time because his survival causes them to do something else, not discover the tesselecta, and the doctor ACTUALLY dies, promoting them to try to save him. You get stuck in a paradox, and time breaks.

@emmiebunny04

10 ай бұрын

I always thought that the fixed point is that the Doctor has to be at the lake, and the Silence used that as a way to kill him

@tzarg

2 ай бұрын

@@theguyyouhate honestly you raise a good point at the end there, they could just assume he's not dead yet, like how River looked at Donna in Silence in the Library

2011- Such a big year for whovians: the death of two significant and well-loved actors, the return of two episodes, the end of torchwood and a complex season. I think 2011 was when the glory years was over particularly since Russell T Davies finally stepped out of anything Doctor Who.

@cameronbaker97

Жыл бұрын

This year was also the end of The Sarah Jane Adventures too.

This episode is all style and, honestly, I have a blast going through this crazy fucking mess. It's not a good episode but it's wacky fun

I remember the confusion on the release of this thing. I found the series intro incredibly disorienting because of having to set up for this, and for this to not-pay it off so spectacularly still has me shaken. I just flash in my head to the alternate-world bullshit in pyramids and I shake my head knowing it's coming down the rewatch pipe.

So basically this episode is that scene in the last part of The Web of Fear where the Second Doctor feigns defeat to the Great Intelligence but actually has a plan to destroy but can’t tell his companions as it would compromise his plan, but this also leads to Jamie fucking it up. This small scene was used as an actual season plot, resolved in a 20 minute Inferno rip-off , and somehow tricking multiple Moffat stans online into thinking it’s good. I shit on the Chibnall/Whittaker era a lot but if it didn’t exist than I would still have the Moffat/Smith era to shit on. These two eras of Modern Who are pretty bad and consist of everything I don’t like about Doctor Who. Doctor Who being about complicated plots is fine, but to condense these plots so horribly and to dumb them down to “The Doctor is Important because… uhhh… [Insert Random Bullshit]” almost never works. One of the only few stories to do this well is Lungbarrow but that had years of previous books to build off of and the fact that.. well, it was a book, so it can do all that weird shit and do it well. The Doctor needs to be like Spider-Man, not Superman. The friendly neighborhood Time Lord who drops in a random location and tries to help. Not an actual fucking God who’s being treated by every species in the universe as such. The Doctor should be a weird urban legend, not a fairy tale Superhero messiah.

@fellinuxvi3541

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely, there's nothing wrong with enjoying Moffat's run as mindless fun, but it is pretty mindless.

I honestly like much of what Moffat has done, but I find that many times that rather than just give us a good adventure, he likes to terrorize and torture the companions he has created for several episodes. Rory spends 2000 years by himself, Amy watches her baby disintegrate to goop before her very eyes, Rory kills the woman he loves, The Doctor dies... sometimes - most times - I just want a fun story. Oh, and when he does do one of those ongoing stories, like you said, they usually just peter away and die before the get to the end..

@one_smol_duck

5 ай бұрын

Not only that but then he doesn't follow through with the horror he's subjected the characters to. We get Amy's baby melting to goop in her arms in one episode, then four episodes later it's revealed that her greatest fear is.... The time she had to wait all night for the doctor. Not like, any of the insane trauma she's been through since then. Just waiting. She's ✨the girl who waited✨ after all.

“I’m bored of this. I’m going for a twix.”Got me there as well harbo

I never even noticed that the real eyepatch lady is still out there and never got dealt with, and that thing about how right at the end Amy and Rory are all of a sudden mourning the Doctor even though nothing really happened to him at this point in their timeline... great job Moffat Also am I right in guessing that Amy remembers the events of the weird alternate timeline just because of... wibbly wobbly cracky wacky in the wally stuff? Lol

@harry_page

6 ай бұрын

@@tvguy61 I think the subtlety is that Amy was reacting like us as the audience were because we've just watched the Doctor submit to his death, but it's strange because from Amy's actual point of view, she last saw the Doctor when he dropped them off at the end of the God Complex, and he's still got another 200 years to live at that point. I might be wrong though, this is very confusing

I hate the idea (Or at least what Moffat does with it) that “The time and date have always been the same” and “All time is happening at once”. There’s nothing nitpick-y about questioning the clocks, calendars or anything else, because it’s just such a stupid set up to an episode. So humans have a way of objectively measuring time outside of their own perspectives. Sure, that’s fine. But they obviously still perceive time moving, or else they would all be frozen statues. So why aren’t they measuring subjective time? But more importantly how does this time line even work? Why are there cars strapped to balloons? At what point in history did we travel by balloon-car? And even if we DID eventually decide to travel is probably the most inconvenient way possible, why would we still do that when there are Pteradactyles. These are free thinking people. Why in this broken time line are people getting into their balloon cars, hundreds of feet in the air when even a stray BIRD could end up killing them? How is the War of Roses entering a second year if they aren’t subjectively measuring time, and time is frozen? How is the War of Roses EVEN HAPPENING? The Roman Empire is in charge, so why is there a war going on for the throne? Things like this is why I’ve always hated Moffat as the show runner and stopped watching the show in his era. He’s not a good enough story teller to tell the types of weird ass stories that he wants to tell. I can accept weird and crazy shenanigans. You need to to like Dr. Who as a whole. But it feels like Moffat never thinks any idea past a rough draft “This would be funny/cool” before diving head first into turning it into a story.

@MarieDesJardin

2 жыл бұрын

x 100

@fellinuxvi3541

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely, he deserves your username far more than you do because the way he puts style over substance is just bad. There's nothing wrong with style, but it only works if you like the style.

@marior.5796

5 ай бұрын

I did understand it like that the time broke and everything on earth from the past until this moment was compressed in a single moment of time, while combining some parts to new ones like different kinds of transportation to flying cars or the tower and the pyramid as a train station. And while all this is combined in a single moment, the moment of the explosion, people have the combined knowledge of Romans, Churchill, calendars, clocks etc. and the concepts behind it, but while it is a single moment in time, the clocks and calendars are only showing this single moment. And they can only measure the single moment they are in. And that Amy doesn't recognise Rory is due to the time in the past when Amy did forget that Rory did exist. A part from the past reflecting in this moment. It's not like it all got reinvented over a period of time, it's just there. It's just like the painting from Galifrey, frozen in time, captured in a single moment in time, but this time also reflecting parts from the past. Resulting in this beautiful mess like a rewind from the past seasons. That is how I did interpret this episode. But I also like such episodes where you have something to think of or to interpret in or something surprising strange/new/other, instead of the normal stuff where you know in which direction it goes, why it is so and where you get some (obvious) hints what is going on so you can feel good because you got to the right conclusion before the episode did. I did find the Wedding of River Song episode and the Pandorica opens episode great and entertaining.

Nice to know that this episode wasn't confusing because I was 13, it was confusing because it was just plain bad

I think the 'fixed point' that absolutely had to happen was actually just everyone THINKING the Doctor was dead, not him actually dying. So the fact that he survives doesn't actually break any of the show's established rules. It doesn't make the episode any less of a confusing, rushed mess unfortunately.

Actually I think the clocks and the calendars do make sense. If all of time is happening at once then some thing as big as the creation of a clock or the construction of a Calendar would still be there. That could even be the spark that got the doctor to notice

i can't explain why but even through the mess that this episode is i still LOVE season 6 and this episode and will defend the river song storyline until my dying breath

I love this episode but you're right, it would have done better as a two-parter.

I always assumed the fixed point is that the doctor was at Lake Silencio, not that he died. And he was at the lake bc he was inside the tesselecta. And ig I must be a huge contrarian bc I personally really enjoyed it. Its not the best season finale but i found it entertaining enough, probably bc I loved the part where Amy killed Madame Kovarian bc as well as stealing her baby, she also caused Amy to become infertile

I feel like this season should've focused more on Doctor and River's relationship, because then the finale would work. Like, the big misdirection of this season was building up to is that we all think Silence is so important and needs to be stopped, just like River, but in the end, to the Doctor it doesn't matter, and what's more important to him is letting the lady he loves that he cares about her, and that's more important to him than some alien conspiracy. It almost works, but it doesn't. Cause this season isn't about love, and how some people struggle with showing it or accepting it, it's about death, and losing your child. And also, River making that beacon to show how many people love him is supposed to be this big moment where he realized she loves him, but that doesn't work, because he never really had any reason to question that she does. And then Moffat does it again in the Husband of River Song. WHY ARE YOU SO SURPRISED THAT SHE GENUINELY LOVES YOU, YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS BY NOW. I feel like instead of the Doctor showing that he had everything in control all along, he should be just as powerless as River is to stop what's going on. And the difference is, while she's panicking and trying to find a loophole, he just hugs her and tells her he's okay as long as she's there with him. And then the solution doesn't come from them, but from somewhere else, that was set up in some other episode maybe.

i fear that i unwillingly have been a moffat apologist for about 12 years now and also a lover of the serialized nature of series 6, but this episode is truly unwatchable for me. i love river and to me this episode completely taints both her actual character exploration and her reputation as a character for the audience. it's almost a cringey experience - and this is coming from someone who loves the moffat era. like this episode itself makes me want to write to hbo max and ask them to add a "skip episode" button to their UX. thanks for your consistently great reviews x

It reminds me of the Monks three-parter during Capaldi's time, complete with fake cop-out regeneration.

Also, something else to take note of: The Doctor later explains how in “Time Of The Doctor” how this one is the last one in his regeneration cycle (hence why the timelords granting him a new set at the end of the episode. And before you ask, this still technically works with the timeless child thing, because there’s clearly some kind of control to regeneration, as Twelve held back his as he was trying not to, and the Harold Saxon Master refused to regenerate and actually died for real, so Eleven most likely thought he couldn’t regenerate any more, thus him potentially dying for good and him having to get an extra life pickup from the time lords). So if this is his last one in the cycle, The Doctor clearly knows this….why would he go to the trouble of faking the whole regeneration energy when he clearly didn’t need to? Hell, it wouldn’t be for his companions as I doubt the Ponds know of Regeneration and River would know he’s on his last life too!

@kyllerbuzcut

2 жыл бұрын

The silence (and others) are watching, and know about it. River is in prison for it. The Kovarian chapter were established to make sure it happens. Amy is made of plastic because of it. She's also in space, pregnant with River, because of it. There's more... But... It all has to happen that way or it can't happen and they won't be able to know about it in the first place, and he will just die. Also, River we even exist otherwise.

@tomnorton4277

Жыл бұрын

Was it ever implied that the Silence know about the regeneration limit? Or even where Matt Smith is in the Doctor's regeneration cycle? If not, they would have expected the Doctor to try to regenerate in order to stay alive and would have been suspicious if he didn't. They don't have the luxury of seeing his life throughout its linear progression like the audience does and since the Time Lords had become legends, with only 2 surviving members of the species in the entire universe, they couldn't exactly ask them if there was any limit to the number of regenerations.

@deadpooldan9862

Жыл бұрын

I always felt like, since the Time Lords put a limit on regeneration for everyone, they did this for the Doctor too, so he was genuinely in danger of dying in this life, since it was the end of his cycle.

My favourite part of the series were the antagonists, the silence are my favourite alien. Madam Kovarian is such a unique villain and I wish they’d brought her back in some form

I remember as a kid liking this episode and series because of the crazy time shenanigans, I thought it was cool. But later on in life I can see some of the issues it has, and didn't enjoy it as much upon rewatching it many years later. It was interesting going back through doctor who episodes and seeing how my views have changed viewing it as a kid, and then an adult. Some episodes I like more, some less, and some about the same. I still love waters of mars for instance, loved it as a kid too for similar reasons to this episode, the idea of messing with time. But unlike this episode, the waters of mars has that very important C word, which is why I still love it as an adult. It's not just showing off, it's got some thought to it.

From what I can tell from the fixed point dilemma. The thought occurred to me recently that by using the Teselecta it was easier to make an "official" record of his death as a fixed point by having whoever runs their operation fudge the facts for their data to help the Doctor cover his tracks.

21:34 this moment is actually even more powerful when you remember he's in a time machine meaning he could have gotten this phone call at any point in his life, but it's the tardis that made sure he got this phone call when he needed it most.

@HishamA.N_Comicbroe

2 ай бұрын

Damn that's so true.

One thing I never understood about this season. Where did amy and Rory begin? Like they start going to Utah, see the doctor die at the lake but then later they’re dropped off back home in the god complex ready for the adventure in Utah? So surely they should know the doctor is gonna die? It doesn’t make sense

Something I liked about this episode was that it made the end of Waters of Mars work a lot better for me. I always thought that Adelaide resorted to suicide way too fast to be believable. After all, her only source that she had to die was the same random weirdo who was now telling her to just go live her life. I like to head cannon a similar temporal collapse, with Adelaide slowly realizing that suicide was the old way to fix the timeline. Kinda like the end of Father's Day.

Still better than Timeless Children

Will you cover Torchwood: Children of Earth eventually?

"What was the point of the Pyramid Scheme." A question that haunts anyone taken in by one. 😅 I think most of the crit is valid, but also some is based on seeing the Silence as the big bad when to me it was Madam K and her group and the Silence are just her tools, which could have been set up better. In the end I gave it a pass because it was still ok enough that it didn't destroy or alter the Whoniverse in the end, it just fails to make any sense for the space of one episode. Now that we've experienced whole plotlines that make no sense from Chibs, I can look back on this with more fondness than malice. Oh remember when THIS was the extent of our worries? The Good Old Days! I was far angrier at Death in Heaven and what it did to the Brigadier and the Insane notion that water on a grave, even super special nanite filled rain, can somehow create Metal from nothing in caskets.

@ginge641

Жыл бұрын

The Silence are the villains. Madam K is one of them.

I thought series 6 was a good season overall. Maybe not how it finishes but the curveballs that divert expectations. The river song twist never gets old.

This is the season finale that feels like a three parter, actually is only one episode and should be two episodes. This story is even more trippier than some of the experimental Beatles music.

I think the idea is that because the doctor never died and river wasn't put in prison that means they both meet in the future and in the same time don't. half of their adventures will be out of order, and the other half will both exist and not exist at the same time, like the pandorica and the weeping angels. Because of that time doesn't know how to run it doesn't know what is and isn't happening, and that is why it's a fixed point in time. So if river goes to prison for killing the "doctor" it will mean they still meet in the future and the time line isn't broken.

I feel like Amy would be mourning and thinking back to those events in that particular moment because she didn't get to do that in time, and knew after the Doctor left them that he'd be off to Lake Silencio soon. Also the parallel reality didn't happen because the doctor didn't die, but because river out right refused to shoot him. It was documented that that was the day the doctor was killed by river so he had to make sure the whole universe believed it actually happened. Not saying it makes perfect sense and the episode is definitely a mess regardless, but I don't think the logic is as flawed as you're making it out to be.

If there's so much padding, how would it being a two-parter help? The way in which Steven was playing with series structure this year was to flip it; starting with a two-parter, ending with one-part. If you want a good finale, watch the opener. I just wish, to complete this structure, Wedding of River Song were a scaled-back character piece. The 'epicness' of it just makes it feel lame. And there's so little interesting character work.

@yalieyal4362

2 жыл бұрын

A two parter would let the doctor have real closure for his death, and maybe the first time around he wasn't in the robot suit, but the second time around he was. That would be good use of an episode where he either accepts death or teaches his companions the accept his death or whatever. Now u have an entire episode to explain whats going on in the alternate reality

@ginge641

Жыл бұрын

Because then it wouldn't be padding.

The wedding of river song I think is a pretty good episode but it could’ve been fantastic if it was a 2 parter. It’s way to muddled and confusing compared to what it could’ve been.

I won’t lie, I DID enjoy the ending scene as corny as it was. I loved Matt’s acting in that scene. Rest of the episode though? Confusing.

“I’m bored of this, I’m going for a Twix” The amount of times I’ve used that line in real life I’ve lost count

horrible paced, confusing and waste of great set up just a terrible finale

The only thing I can think of as to why the main plothole of him not actually dying can be countermanded is the idea that he was always supposed to fake his death in the tesselecta, but even that gets ruled out from the first time we see him die. He gets shot and has everyone grouped together only for him to have his body burned anyway. Seeing as they would most certainly notice if the doctor suddenly popped out of him own burning body, it proved that he actually did die originally. So idek, I pretty much just pretend it didn't happen, only to be reminded everytime Moffat makes a callback in the script.

@cameronbaker97

Жыл бұрын

I think he teleported out of it.

I think in the universe of doctor who, people believed the fixed point was that the doctor died at the lake place. The actual fixed point was the teselector(I think that’s how you say it) being destroyed by river then making people in the universe think the doctor is dead. This means that time isn’t tricked in some weird way and it atleast makes some sense Also Amy in the epilogue bit might be the Amy in the god complex and it’s just night time and because she said farewell to the doctor in that episode she now may think the doctor is now finally dead

I feel like Moffat was like " Oh boy I can't wait to do a big long special to cap off my series" then the BBC was like " Ah HELL nah, regular length"

you can explain amy and rory as thinking the doctors dead as we know that he took long breaks after god complex when he would go and see them. We can assume that one of the breaks may have been a long time and during this time Amy assumed the doctor would have died, as from her perspective there is nothing that would have stopped that from happening

In Doctor Who, the concept of "fixed point" is a bit loose, but I believe it's just poorly fleshed out. 1. "Time" or "the universe" is capable of dealing with paradox...up to a given point. 2. A "fixed point" is an event that MUST occur in all realities so that reality itself doesn't unravel. 3. It's the illustration of these "fixed points" that is murky. I don't see "time" as an entity to be fooled, but rather one that must be satisfied. If you are recorded as having died on a certain date and time at a certain place, all that matters is that history records your death at that date/time/location. As a time traveler, the Doctor can fake his death and everyone will presume they are seeing an earlier version of him running around. One can't alter one's own timeline...why the Doctor can have "do overs" of his past actions. We see in Father's Day what happens when he attempts this for Rose. An example of one kind of fixed point in time. Destruction of Pompeii. Poorly written. Yes, the Doctor is why Vesuvius explodes, but that's not what makes Pompeii a fixed point in time. If the Doctor doesn't explode the volcano to destroy the aliens, they will wipe out humanity before it ever leaves the Bronze Age. As we know in Doctor Who lore that humans leave earth and spread through many galaxies and even exist in some form or another to the end of the universe itself, we see that such a paradox is too great for the universe/time to adapt around it. Death at Lake Silenceo. The Silence want the Doctor dead to prevent his going to Trenzalore. Their first attempt triggered a total event collapse of the universe. They are willing to risk anything to achieve this goal. The Doctor gambled that he didn't need to actually die but only appeared to have died. He had to cheat death in a way that fooled the Silence so they wouldn't keep attempting to kill him. He later confronts the Papal Mainframe and says they were trying to change events to which they were already a part of...a classic legacy paradox. Death on Trenzalore. After Clara enters the Doctor's time stream to fix the harm caused by The Great Intelligence, the Doctor elects to go after her and bring her back. He specifically states that by entering his own timestream, it was collapsing in on itself. In other words, his history/future was no longer fixed. We then see that when he's at the end of his regenerations on Trenzalore, it is Clara who intercedes to the Timelords on his behalf...asking them to help...and they grant a new set of regenerations to the Doctor. Had the Doctor not saved Clara, he would have died as it was originally depicted.

I just found s6 very fun. All this was just fun.

@ginge641

Жыл бұрын

How insightful.

Okay, so everybody only THOUGHT the Doctor's death was a fixed point, when in actuality it was the Tesselecta being shot by River Song that was the fixed point. They explain that a fixed point can be created in an otherwise quiet moment in time. I will say I wish the answer to the mystery were introduced prior to the mid-series finale. I would have preferred, for instance, if the Ganger Doctor had somehow returned. Maybe The Doctor actually dies, and the Ganger Doctor takes his place from that point onward.

This video is longer than the main part of this episode.... and to be honest, this video is more enjoyable.

Say whatever else you want about the episode, but the moment The Doctor and Churchill realize they're in the middle of defending themselves against The Silence is just gold.

really liked this episode but i think it needed 3 parts to be honest how i would have divided it part 1 being the setup thats handled with the flashbacks, the cliffhanger with amy shooting the doctor (the stun gun) as the end of part 1 we then get the cold open of part 2 explaining what happened with River refusing to kill the doctor then building the whole universe trying to help him to be a pointless thing then ending with either the original ending or river killing the doctor then using a thing similar to how they brought the master back in end of time

I think the thing here is that just. He never died. He wasn't supposed to die. The fixed point was people THINKING he was dead.

I watched this sooooo long ago i remember basically nothing but good to know it was just as confusing as I remember feeling about it lmao

Honestly, it could have been 3 episodes without really stretching itself out too thin.

He could have been lying about the fixed point in time being his death. Maybe the fixed point was just the appearance of his death, everyone believing he was dead. I'm not trying to defend the episode as a whole but that's one point that never really bothered me.

Moffat’s writing is as convincing as his wig 🤣

I think the world still has clocks and calanders because clocks and calanders are a thing throughout history. Like the fact that the time hasn't changed, I can imagine the people of the world just accepting it. Could argue why the roman is still driving a chariot when it's kinda obsolete in a world of engines, but he does because time's gone wonky and the world doesn't question it. "time's gone wrong and some of us noticed" Some might've noticed by acknowledging the existence of clocks and their implications.

It’s really bad that we can look at this now and go “at least it was basically coherent and not outright horrible”

Funny you bring up SG1: according to the series lore Area 52 is the Codename for the SGC on the spending sheet

I agree that this finale is terrible but the plot does make sense whether or not time is an entity or the doctor survives the fixed point. (For ~11:05) The butterfly effect only works when something is so undetermined that it just takes a flap from insect wings to tip the scales, but certain events are so important that they would undoubtedly change history and that's all that fixed points are. Travelling back in time is likely not going to unintentionally change this event because a huge portion of the timeline rests on it. It's like a load bearing support that's tougher to move because of all the stuff it's carrying and disastrous if you successfully do so. When time travel is involved, the reason you would have for changing a fixed point would definitely no longer exist once history is altered so significantly, and the universe rapidly trying to correct this (repeatedly altering the future, which then cancels out its own attempts) would cause some catastrophic time-breaking effect. What matters to history is that future civilizations will believe the doctor to have died on the beach, not that his death actually happened, so River disabling her weapon created a time-twisting anomaly and the doctor faking his death like he was always meant to fixed it.

I really really like the "Live Chess" thing, but you're correct that everything about this episode is rushed and doesn't really matter.

watching this was cathartic for me. after getting really into doctor who around 2010, starting with the reboot, i was finally able to watch series 6 live. after the opening 2-parter, i was so fucking pumped to see where the story was going, and while there were genuinely incredible highlights like "the doctor's wife" and "the girl who waited," i couldn't stand "a good man goes to war" or "let's kill hitler," and by the time i watched this embarrassment of a finale, i was so done. i hung on for awhile, but i didn't start actively watching doctor who again until capaldi's last series.

I like season 6, I think its decent, but this finale sorta ruined it for me

I've seen this whole thing and had to go back because I was still laughing about "The Battle of Ransack A Prius" at the very beginning. XD

I'm at 11minutes into the video And I think that the fixed point in time wasn't the death of the doctor, but rather River shooting her gun, which is what she altered.

I saw a theatrical showing of this, and one of the other viewers was seeing Doctor Who for the first time.

Wedding of river song is more like the wedding reception where the creepy uncle is 5 drinks in and starting to eye people up. Genuinely laughed more than I did in all of series 6

The clocks and calenders exist because they existed in the normal non-compressed timeline, surely? This isn't a new timeline or history, it's all of time pressed together.

@mrdr0161

2 жыл бұрын

Then why is Rory a different person

@tzarg

2 ай бұрын

@@mrdr0161 he's not, his name is still Rory Williams in this episode, he just doesn't say his first name to sound professional or something

@mrdr0161

2 ай бұрын

@@tzarg but he has a completely different personality. Rory would never have the courage to be a soldier. Why can Amy remember things and Rory can't?

this episode makes me mad to this day because 11 is my absolute favourite doctor and i wanted to like it so bad but it was just...so bad

Hot take: Series 6 is the best Matt Smith series. Cold take: This was a sucky finale for it though.

Why do Amy and Rory know River is their daughter in this world. This is the Amy and Rory from episode 1. They don't know this yet. Sure, all of time is happening at once but that shouldn't really explain it.

" why are there clocks if the time has always been 5.02 " . For the same reason that the roman still used the chariot . Everything from before and after is forced into now , including clocks

The clocks and calendars thing could have even been a plot point. Something 11 tried to use to convince Churchill. “You know this isn’t right, Winston. You’ve always known.” “And why is that, exactly” “Because of the question.” “What question?” “The question. If it has always been and will always be the twenty-second of April at 5:04 PM… why would you have a clock in the first place”

it's episodes like this one that put my parents off watching DW, not because the episodes was bad but because it's too hard to follow. it's a bit like fnaf is some respects. Also the scene where the Doctor is support to be shot by River, is ruined by the triable green screen.

i mean the whole episode is an answer to the question "what happens when you rewrite a fixed point in time?". So i don't see a problem with the episode.

Series 6 is built on the assumption that everyone loves river song, but in actual fact her story become boring and tedious half way through the series with the fact she was revealed to be Amy and Rory's child ( extremely predictable in the first two parter of the series) didn't help at all. Plus let's kill Hitler was terrible and felt like an end to her arc anyway. Also throughout the story the doctor comes to terms and accept his demise, only to suddenly change his mind and takes all the drama and investment out of the whole arc. Series 6 moffat went to far with his ideas and he would do it again in series 9 with the hybrid, another confusing finale...

@SuperWolsey

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

@fellinuxvi3541

Жыл бұрын

Yeah like the idea of River Song is fine, meeting someone out of order is something that could theoretically happen to a time traveler, but it's just a gimmick, in order for the character arc to work you need everything else to be good too.

The episode was a jumbled mess, just like the timeline.. maybe it was a meta reference to it’s own shortcomings.

I respect your opinion and I recognize there are problems with the episode, but I still love The Wedding of River Song. As far as calendars, I assumed that all the pages have the same date - not that there are calendar pages with different dates on them. And I assume that the reason there are clocks and calendars are because they already exist in the universe. This isn't so much a new universe where things are created for a particular purpose. If it were, then yes there would be no need for clocks and calendars. Rather, time is collapsing so that things that already exist in the universe are mish-mashed together. So you would have clocks and calendars, because they already exist, but they would all show the same date and time due to the collapse of time.

If you think about it, the Eye Drives didn't even need to be some form of advanced technology, they could've literally stuck a passport photo of the Silence on the inside so they are contantly looking at them and thus, won't forget them.

I just about manage to understand this, but it always falls apart when I try to explain it to anyone else. Once the "All of time is happening at once" thing and the live chess scenes with Mark Gatiss have passed, nobody really gets the episode.

@fellinuxvi3541

Жыл бұрын

Yeah the thing is that it doesn't make any sense. You have to accept it as you can the way you accept a convention in mathematics. You have to accept that in doctor who "all of time happening at once" can happen, even though it's an absurd thing that physically or logically speaking cannot ever be possible. There's nothing to understand here.