The Minish Cap is extremely underrated.

@JavierSanchez-mo2ef

7 жыл бұрын

Yes I think this is at least in the top 5. It is by far one of the best.

@MrBorderlands123

7 жыл бұрын

(Insert Zelda game here) is underrated.

@JavierSanchez-mo2ef

7 жыл бұрын

Matthew Etter your comment is so underrated.

@TheVideoClubeTheBEST

7 жыл бұрын

I agree

@thegardenofeatin5965

7 жыл бұрын

I really don't think it is.

I can just imagine that someday your graphs will be used in a college course somewhere.

@davidd8583

7 жыл бұрын

???

@keyofw

7 жыл бұрын

Shh... let me dream.

@heyitsjoshmusic

7 жыл бұрын

with this new improvement they really are perfect for explaining this kind of game design

@cozyKyra

7 жыл бұрын

I mean if I just sneak a graph into a presentation technically your dream will come true.

@niklasgransjen684

7 жыл бұрын

heyitsjosh Definitely. I can see myself using the system he made when designing games myself, making it easy for the creator (me) to see the logic of the layout. That would make it much easier to make the dungeon exactly as you want it, whether it's find- or follow the path, or a combo

In defense of follow the path, the way minish cap mixes it up seems to suggest that the designers intent is to contrast the hard thinking dungeons with more relaxing dungeons in the art of pacing. Zeldas combat and room relative puzzle solving is still an obstacle for the player. A game filled to the brim with non linear dungeons can be quite taxing if a casual player is getting backtrack ptsd. I love backtracking as a crucial element of level design but pacing it so thats not a constant thing i think is crucial. Your argruments only make sense to me when comparing individual dungeons against each other but the game as a whole is still important.

@ixis

7 жыл бұрын

Not only that, but it makes jumping into a game after not playing for a week almost impossible when it comes to Zelda games. You can't even undo all the finished puzzles to reorient yourself. I think that's why as time goes on, Nintendo does less and less with non-linear dungeons, whose only advantage is if you can remember things four or five rooms back, allow you to pretend to be smart.

@IronicHavoc

4 жыл бұрын

Non linearity doesn't necessarily require backtracking.

@GoldenHairErik

2 жыл бұрын

There's also the aesthetic merit of a zelda dungeon, and Palace of Winds is one of the very most enchanting dungeons in any 2D Zelda game. The background music goes OFF.

@Bored_Overthinker

Жыл бұрын

​@@ixis that's why I think the Divine beasts went to go with a non-room design, very rarely are you going to have individual rooms sectioned off from each other.

If the next series is on Metroid, hoo boy is that graph going to be massive.

@GMTK

7 жыл бұрын

haha, I actually have thought about this. I really want to see what a Super Metroid graph would look like, though.

@danielweber4961

7 жыл бұрын

I would love to see that as well!

@boium.

7 жыл бұрын

Yes I love metroid. I can't wait to see those boss key videos especially super metroid since it was the first in the series I played

@Twadfire

7 жыл бұрын

Massive and complex, if one want to show all possibilities to get past obstacles or get items early. Mobility skills and tricks would be their own "keys", i think. Speedruns really show that there's two "skill" layers to the game in there. Learning and applying walljump and shinespark is just the start.

@johannhowitzer

7 жыл бұрын

It will also change dramatically if you include simple speedrunning tricks, like the mockball. Quite a few items can be gotten earlier than the game wants you to, and most of these tricks wouldn't be considered glitches, but merely design oversights.

This game is absolutely gorgeous, so utterly charming, absolutely a favourite of mine. So glad to see you cover it, Mark.

Can we also just point out how this game’s art style is soo freaking good and is probably the 2D Zelda that ages the best

@rooty

11 ай бұрын

No

@Error403HRD

7 ай бұрын

True, it's so pretty and well done!

I really do love the graphs. They're quite interesting.

The Minish Cap is such a fantastic and underrated Zelda game. I virtually hear nobody talk about it. In fact, it's in my Top 3 favorite Zelda games of all time. If anyone has the opportunity to play this game, DO IT! You will not be disappointed. (^-^)

@fy8798

7 жыл бұрын

It's my second favorite Zelda game, right after ALBW. It's really underrated, some Zelda fans don't even consider it a real Zelda somehow. People are weird.

@albertoallegrirodriguez5140

7 жыл бұрын

RJTheHero i love it too, but it was my first game, so i cant be objective here xD

@RJTheHero8

7 жыл бұрын

Alberto Allegri Rodriguez The nostalgia is strong with this one. ;)

@KuraIthys

7 жыл бұрын

I quite like it, very well thought out. But really quite short. So... You win some, you lose some, I guess?

@TheOneLichemperor

7 жыл бұрын

It is up there on my list (along with the oracles). First played it when I went on holiday with a friend years ago. He brought it with him, I borrowed it and, knowing that he would want to take it home with him I sat and played it start to finish in practically one sitting.

Spatial awareness ! That's it ! Thank you for giving a name to something there is in every video game I've loved : the First Deus Ex, Dark Souls 1, the Metroid saga, the Hitman series... I love learning levels, I think it's a skill that is at the core of what video games are, I don't see any other media requiring you to have spatial awareness.

@GMTK

7 жыл бұрын

those are all great examples of games that really challenge and reward your spatial awareness!

I really like Minish Cap. As someone who grew up with the Oracle games and still consider those my favorite games in the series, Minish Cap seemed like a really cool return to form. One thing I'm surprised you didn't take more time to talk about were the items themselves. In my opinion at least, Minish Cap has some of the most unique and interesting items in the series. The Gust Jar and Cane of Pacci being my favorites. For concepts as simple as "suck stuff towards you" and "flip stuff upside down" respectively they think of so many unique ways to use them. And some items in Minish Cap have never appeared in a Zelda game since, further adding to just how unique they are.

@cube2fox

6 жыл бұрын

TheGamedawg But the Oracle games had similarly unique items. 🤔

I think you're right about spatial awareness. I think that's also exactly what frustrates some people. Some may naturally suck at it, so it hurts their head, they get lost, and frustrated. Versus others who can hold onto a mental map and backtracking and re-exploration is a challenge but do-able. Metroid Prime demanded so much mental mapping and memorization that it frustrated me so much. Eventually I stopped trying to have a mental map and just re-explored everywhere each time I got a new key (ie. power up). So I think there's a balance on how complex a dungeon should be. But the balance won't always be the same for every player, so the best bet to balance fun and challenge is to have a mix of find AND follow the path dungeons.

@PauLtus_B

7 жыл бұрын

I think the big importance is to make different routes simply look distinct and make it clear what routes are there to take.

@anonymousanonymous6647

7 жыл бұрын

I get what you mean. I have a similar problem with Metroid Prime, but it's worth it.

@TheZeldafreak97

5 жыл бұрын

I know this is kinda late but i had the exact same problem with the prime series at the beggining. But i started wtiting all of the rooms down on a piece of paper that had something unusual in them so i could backtrack later. And because of this the prime series has become one of my favourite series ever. Give it a shot!

@Slumbering_Alex

4 жыл бұрын

Metroid Prime had a hint system that was enabled by default in order offset this iirc (it literally pointed you to the room you needed to enter next)

The graphs really improved, now I can see what is going on without following the lines and thinking a lot, it is superb how some little changes on the way it is displayed shows a LOT to the viewer!

"Follow" Dungeons feel like a theme park ride, they can be relaxing once in a while but the "find" dungeons feel much more like adventures, exploring and figuring things out.

I think we're all forgetting the most important question. When will Mark review The Wand of Gamelon?

Minish Cap is so great. I loved going back for the mirror shield after completing it, and collecting all the kinstones. I didn't want it to end.

This was a great episode. The new graphs are a massive improvement, and clear show what you wanted to see by using a temporal view on the Y axis. And defining find vs follow is an important concept in dungeon creation. Personally, I would change find vs follow to a different name so you can use an acronym ie (follow the path is FTP, explore the path is ETP). Loops are also an interesting note to think about, and their use made me think about Resident Evil's mansion being a great example of a follow the path.

@AceDroo

7 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I was thinking that as well. Something like "Follow the Route" and "Find the Path" could work

@Alevice

7 жыл бұрын

Figure the Map vs Walk the Track

@AceDroo

7 жыл бұрын

+Alevice Oh thats great!

@garagavia

7 жыл бұрын

Disagree on the RE.

@SechristCircus

7 жыл бұрын

I agree, I especially liked it when they stretched out. Made it perfectly understandable at a quick glance, even without having to pause the video.

Just wanted to say this is one of the few channels about game design that I like to watch. Way too often these channels have a patronizing tone, that is specially annoying when the content is not even insightful. You, on the other hand, sound very honest, like you're learning this stuff as you go along, revisiting and correcting your own arguments you made before. Keep it up!

It would also be useful when you're distinguishing the two types of dungeon, to lay out the order they appear in the game. It would be interesting to see if the game eases you in with follow the path-style dungeons before adding the complexity of find the path, or whether the two styles act as alternating palette cleansers from each other, or some other pattern. The infographics are great!

@GMTK

7 жыл бұрын

+razzledazzle84921 Good point, I'll try and do that in future episodes

@BlinJe

7 жыл бұрын

palette cleansers is a damn good point. Also I could see a follow-the-path being used in a penultimate dungeon as a way to ramp up momentum before the final areas/challenges of the game. Come to think of it, Mark already made this point about Hyrule Castle and fighting your way to Aganhim in aLTTP..

@neversparky

Жыл бұрын

@@BlinJe In his video about Wind Waker, some people in the comments actually brought this up in defense of the tower of the gods

Dark Hyrule Castle is a brilliant final dungeon IMO. It takes the cloning mechanic prevalent throughout the game to its extreme, with crazy timing puzzles that require some quick spatial awareness of a single room as opposed to the dungeon-wide spatial awareness that you spoke of. Also, I love how it uses combat as a puzzle in a 2D Zelda game where the skill is in quick dodges and finding the right moment to strike as opposed to having a lock-on system and 3-dimensional space. I love Minish Cap so much, thanks for the awesome episode Mark!

Damn, your roll-dodging was on point in this.

@GMTK

7 жыл бұрын

i just roll through pretty much every zelda game. HYUP HYUP HYUP HYUP

@fro5235

7 жыл бұрын

but of course. walking always feels slower. tiem to cross hylian field for the 80th time? HYUP HYUP HYUP

The new graph is honestly miles better! Now i actually understand it (:

Would love to see commentary on some classic DOOM maps

@MrBorderlands123

7 жыл бұрын

Mark isn't allowed to play M rated games.

@Xenunnaki

7 жыл бұрын

@Matthew Why not?

@MrBorderlands123

7 жыл бұрын

XenuLies His mom doesn't allow him to.

@natsume-hime2473

7 жыл бұрын

In both DOOM and DOOM II there are basically three types of levels: John Romero's Levels, Sandy Petersen's Levels, and American McGee's Levels. John Romero's levels are notable for being very aesthetically pleasing and easy to navigate. They're generally reliant on branching paths and key hunting puzzles, along with copious backtracking. Secrets are either out of the way, or allow the player to bypass sections of the level. Also Romero often chained secrets together too, often into shortcuts. If you can see outside, you can generally go there in Romero's levels. Finally Romero's levels require a lot of backtracking, thus are heavily populated with "monster closets". Generally when you pick up a key, or an item in a dead end, several walls open up to reveal new monsters. Meaning you have to fight your way back out of the area you just fought your way into much of the time. One of the best examples is E1M3, the Toxic Refinery, it's full of out of the way secrets, monster closets, and backtracking. Most notably you can bypass most of the level straight out of the first door, in favor of going to the secret level. You do this by running out the first door into a death trap looking poison pit, crossing the threshold raises a bridge from the poison. Then you approach the wall at the end of the bridge and it opens. You walk into the next room and several doors open throwing a gauntlet of monsters at you. Finally after all the monsters you go on into a path that leads to the exit for the secret level and a elevator that serves as a shortcut to the red key. That level is really note worthy because of it's complexity and high amount of area dedicated specifically to secret areas. Sandy Petersen's levels tend to be uninteresting looking, if not down right ugly. They tend to be more linear and "follow the path" in nature, thus having minimal to no back tracking in their layout. They tend to be simply laid out, if they have branching paths they're usually short and straight foreword challenges. Due to the nature of these levels expect road blocks, cunning traps, and rooms densely packed with enemies. Often leading to a reward in the form of a power up, a new weapon, secret, or a shortcut, instead of a key. The dense enemy numbers are balanced out with; quick access to area of effect weapons, environmental hazards that can be used to kill enemies, and ways to exploit the mechanic that causes enemies of different types to fight each other, when hurt by a different type of enemy. They also tend to sport lots of use of teleporters as a key method of progress. These levels tend to also feature boss tier enemies, usually placed in a position where they can be exploited, killed by friendly fire, or near a power up that makes fighting them easier. Another common trait is inclusion of platforming puzzles, which are usually optional and more difficult the better the reward is. Finally Petersen's levels usually have at least one point of no return. Tricks and Traps from DOOM II is the best example of Petersen's level design, as it includes all of the hall marks of Petersen's design philosophy. Generally Petersen's levels are intense and classify as the most fun. Last but not least are American McGee's levels. They tend to sport a hybrid of traits common to both John Romeo's and Sandy Petersen's levels. They're usually very nice looking, with thoughtful and balanced design. They often require lots of backtracking, sport multiple paths, and complicated puzzles involving buttons, teleporters, environmental triggers, or all of them in the same room. They usually have a labyrinthine and confusing layout, designed to disorient the player and make foreword progress into a puzzle. McGee's levels are also liberally populated with secrets and powerful enemies. The Gauntlet from DOOM II is probably among the best examples of McGee's level design philosophy. Dark, confusing, and packed with enemies and secrets, all despite it's small size. It also feature two very obtuse puzzles and gets maximum mileage out of the capabilities of what can be done in a DOOM level. McGee also made a level that subverts his typical level design. DOOM II's Dead Simple, which is very simply laid out, and progress to the exit occurs automatically. This level introduces two very powerful enemies the Mancubus and the Arachnotron. Both are present in high numbers that will pose a significant challenge for the difficulty level the game is set to. The level also sports one secret, which is triggered to exit the level. That's pretty much all of DOOM's official level design summed up right there.

@xBINARYGODx

7 жыл бұрын

Natsume-Hime - excellent, VERY excellent response that sort makes a BK episode redundant (should it ever exit). I mean this, btw, no sarcasm (in case if reads as such. However, permit me one nit-pick: It appears as though McGee's levels are not really a combo of the other two, but an alternate, if more complex, version of Romero's. What are you thoughts on that? (reaction, I mean)

Hey! After watching your show for ages I finally gave myself a good kick in the backside and got myself set up on Patreon. I appreciate your hard work and dedication, and what better way to say thank you than with a bit of cashy money? But seriously, thank you for helping me see a whole new side of a series of games I've loved for years. Looking forward to more good things to come!

@GMTK

7 жыл бұрын

Thanks so much Lars - supporters like you literally makes shows like Boss Keys possible!

@voldlifilm

7 жыл бұрын

Happy to contribute!

The new graph format is incredibly useful and understandable, amazing job!

You made me Want to replay this game again

@chokoanders6546

7 жыл бұрын

Oh and the next video is on my favorite zelda game of all time the Best dungeon in that game is arbiters grounds then just behind it is the lakebed temple

@8Kunfu8

7 жыл бұрын

Anders Lindhardt Rasmussen twilight princess seems fairly underated by some people but it's so god damn good. I replayed it earlier this year and want to do it again

@SergMalacoda

7 жыл бұрын

I'd say that Twilight Princess has the best variety of dungeons in the franchise. Every one was completely different than the last. Snowpeak Ruins is my personal fave.

Yeah, Fi is definitely the epitome of a useless sidekick character literally offering nothing of note. Like you said, Navi was probably the threshold of a useful sidekick where you can choose to listen to her. Absolutely loving the new graphs. They're pieces of art by themselves (which you could _totally_ sell, by the way...........)

@Ranko_o3o

7 жыл бұрын

Navi was a huge pain, every time you locked on a monster she would blink, say "hey, hey, hey, listen, hey, listen" until you killed said ennemy. And if you stopped the fight to listen to her useless advice, you would lose the lock on the ennemy, then have to re-lock on it and that's where she goes "hey, listen, hey, hey". No matter how many skultulas you killed, or how many locked doors you went a bit too close to. Not to mention the insta locking on stuff like fishs or interractive elements, the fact that she would make you lock on the ennemy she wanted instead of the one you're facing, the reminder of where to go or what to do to advance in the main quest etc

@okagron

7 жыл бұрын

^ Not to mention she would warn you to go to the dungeon while are you exploring the overworld every 10 minutes. I can't tell how many times she told me to go to the Forest Temple while i was just exploring the overworld for Heart pieces. Sure you can ignore it, but then you have this annoying "Hey, hey, hey!" every 5 seconds and then you just talk to her just to shut her up. Fi at least didn't bothered me every 10 minutes to tell me to go to the next dungeon.

@Twadfire

7 жыл бұрын

Fi offer one thing: The perfect example of what a sidekick should never be. Fi is cancer. Useless, nagging cancer with the sole purpose of making your life miserable and making sure you never forget about it. With useless stats to back it up. With constant reminders of the painfully obvious and stuff already learned/established times and times already. Iced with very unreliable tips/hint when you get stuck. Bonus of an uncanny valley singing/dance routine. Navi had one occasional annoying quip and at least the excuse of being "the first" to test out the formula, as flawed as it was (or not, im okay with her). She was otherwise helpful, QUICK and reliable when you needed her. If people think Navi is annoying, i'd still take several hundreds of her over a single Fi any day. Talt/Midna were the funnier ones (imho) with their snark and were more integrated with the plot.

@fy8798

7 жыл бұрын

Fi would have single handedly ruined the game for me, if it hadn't been made very annoying with the controls.

@VideoGameAnimationStudy

7 жыл бұрын

I agree that Navi was fairly annoying, I can't actually remember if Fi spoke to you in-game the way Navi did. As Skyward Sword was fairly linear in its progression, Fi didn't really offer proper help and was more of a...narrator, I guess. Whereas Midna and Navi kinda did offer help if you needed it.

Probably my favorite Zelda game, and you made me realize one of the reasons is the balanced combination of two different dungeon designs. The beautiful sprite work and music is the other two.

Finally the best in the series.

@excelseo3165

7 жыл бұрын

Panino Manino I thought I was the only one :)

@THI555100

7 жыл бұрын

+Excelseo me too

@Largentina.

6 жыл бұрын

Minish Cap and Twilight Princess are my favorite Zelda games. Call me stupid, call me crazy.

If you want to be perdantic, you could say a "find the path" is a Maze Dungeon, and the "follow the path" is a Labyrinth Dungeon :D

@enigma1326

7 жыл бұрын

While I see your point, it wasn't until after I did research myself to know what the difference was between a maze and a labyrinth. Not many people know what the difference is between the two, so it would be easier for them to be confused by using those terms. Where as the phrases "find the path" and "follow the path" are more easily understood because the concept he's trying to explain is literally spelled out in the most easiest terms.

@Larry

7 жыл бұрын

enigma1326 Yeah, its one of those words that people mix up because it sounds cooler.

@CrystalxKyuubi

7 жыл бұрын

Ayyyy it's Larry Bundy Jr When I was a kid I heard my church was building a labyrinth in the garden. I was super bummed when it was done and I actually learned what a labyrinth was. I thought it would have little walls and everything D:

@Larry

7 жыл бұрын

Hari-Kuyo Yeah, People say Labyrinth when they mean Maze as it sounds cooler, and don't realize they're two seperate things.

@leirbag75

7 жыл бұрын

I know this is an old comment, but as a linguistics and Greek mythology enthusiast, I feel compelled to reply to this. Frankly, I don't think I buy that labyrinth vs. maze distinction. The word "labyrinth" is associated with the story of Theseus and the Minotaur, where the labyrinth was the structure built by the genius engineer Daedalus to keep the Minotaur away from people. If the labyrinth only had one path, then it wouldn't be much use in keeping people safe from the Minotaur; it would just have to follow the one path to get out. On top of that, the story says that when Theseus went into the labyrinth to kill the Minotaur, he took a ball of thread with him and unrolled it as he went so that he'd be able to retrace his path to get out. If the labyrinth only had one path, then this wouldn't be necessary. Wikipedia does mention that there's a long tradition of the labyrinth being drawn with a single path, but I'll bet that's just a matter of practicality and beauty. Practicality because who wants to draw an actual maze? And beauty because mathematically regular shapes are beautiful, and making many confusing branching paths would result in an irregular, ugly pattern. Even apart from history, the fact remains that language is driven by convention, and most people agree that "labyrinth" and "maze" are synonyms. Arguing that people should draw a distinction between the two is like telling people that ladybugs technically aren't "bugs," or that bananas are technically "berries." Maybe you can use that terminology in your maze-ologist circle, but it won't fly in normal conversation.

Wow - I really love the new dungeon graphs. I thought the previous graphs were fine but now that I see the new ones I really see an improvement. Awesome job, Mark!

This was a really good one. I appreciate the follow vs find as a way to differentiate the types of dungeons. I still think the enjoyment I get from playing a dungeon is equally based on the atmosphere, aesthetics, and enemies then the puzzles and layout. But i love the new way to look at dungeons that i haven't thought of before. Keep up the great work.

I know this is a video series on dungeons, but it seems like a sizable portion of the equation for what makes these games fun is being (slightly) ignored. At some point you might want to go a bit more into detail on the combat and general "gameplay" of this game series. Maybe the "follow the path" dungeons aren't so egregious as you make them sound if the enemies populating these levels and and the gameplay mechanics used to navigate these level provides it's own little mandala of intricacies for the player to get absorbed in.

@Waffletigercat

7 жыл бұрын

He talked about that some in this video though. He said (and he stressed that this was HIS OPINION too, and that he understood that not everyone would agree) that he looks to Zelda as a challenge of spatial awareness, because very few other games seem to focus on that at all. So the "follow the path" dungeons disappoint him because they are no longer offering that unique challenge that he can't find very often elsewhere.

@PauLtus_B

7 жыл бұрын

This series is just specifically on how these dungeons are structures. Certainly it's not all there is to these games.

These new graphs are really good! I loved the concept of the maps in previous videos, but I always had a bit of trouble working my way through them while the video was going on. Keep up the great work!

Why do you act like we don't like the graphs? They're beautiful. ;-;

The redesigned graph made a lot more sense to me visually. Thanks for putting in all of the extra work it took for these videos. I love how deep you get into explaining all the dungeons. Some of the best videos I have ever seen on KZread!

I think my favorite loop example is in Dodongo's Cavern in Ocarina of Time--the rising pillar that suddenly rises to the second floor when you step on the switch on the second floor. If you manage to miss something in that area or get killed up there, it gives you a quick way back, but you can certainly finish the dungeon without activating it at all. This gives you a chance to connect to a familiar area without the guarantee that you found the secret thing you need to move on, and that makes it a little easier to mentally map out what areas you have and haven't been to yet!

One of my favorite 2D Zeldas, I really liked all the side stuff you could do. EDIT: Also I love the new graphs

this video inspired me to design an adventure game

Man, your videos are so awesome, well edited and well thought of. I think I would need a whole year playing through, thinking, writing, etc to do only a single video you do. That's amazing! Thank you so much for sharing this!

This show is so wonderful! Thank you Mark for all of your hard work!

One way to demarcate the complexity of a dungeon would be to give 2 numbers: The number of chambers that are traversed path of least resistance and the path of most resistance. For the latter I would think that it would be best to assume that you never re-do anything. ie.) You learn whatever you needed to learn by being there. It would probably be very difficult to determine the path of most resistance though.

@mt_xing

7 жыл бұрын

I think the difference between those two numbers as a proportion of total number of rooms in a dungeon would be a great way to quantify the amount of choice you're given.

i think a more elegant way of describing the two types of dungeons would be to say, "does the dungeon happen to you, or do you happen to the dungeon"

@reflectionist

7 жыл бұрын

I like that distinction.

@TheGameCreator13

7 жыл бұрын

Definitely a lot less "condescending" Not that it bothers ME personally but I'm sure others would appreciate it more

@anonma6628

7 жыл бұрын

i just meant that in one scenario the player makes choices on where to go and what to do and in the other the dungeon layout makes the choices for you.

@TheGameCreator13

7 жыл бұрын

I don't think he understands

Thank you Mark for making this series. I greatly appreciate a different perspective at looking at games, yours being research. I did not mind the length of this video as you paced and explained everything very nicely. I would absolutely love to see more videos from you and more of this series on other games. Thank you for Boss Key!

Excellent quality, as expected. I love that you update your map diagrams. keep up the good work!

I suppose you could say that mixing Find and Follow dungeons helps maintain the game's interest curve.

"I know you all love the graphs." DEAD

Man, these are just fantastic. I don't know how you consolidate your brilliance down into fifteen minutes and still write such a fantastic study, but I genuinely look forward to these episodes every time they come out. Keep up the fantastic work, and expect to see me on your Patreon list very soon!

I'm basically watching these casually out of order, but I am digging how you are developing your method.

Hey Mark, I have a youtube channel myself. Just wondering what program you use to make your videos? Griff

@GMTK

7 жыл бұрын

Adobe Premiere

@discotrain173

3 жыл бұрын

I always like finding old comments from channels before they became super popular

I'll be waiting anxiously for the next episode, I love Twilight Princess!

Love the updated map diagrams, much better! Great job, keep up the great work!

Another great video! I look forward to these every time!

Damn, I could learn a thing or two about how you do visualizations.

Oh man, I can't wait for the Twilight Princess episode. I've always considered Twilight Princess had the best Zelda dungeon design in terms of flavor, key item usage, engaging the player, and puzzle solving.

I very much enjoyed that! Thank you for creating these videos and sharing your finding with us all, Keep up the good work Mark!

I love how by now, you got everyone to love (otherwise boring) graphs! :) Great work! The amount of depth in each episode is stunning and allows us to re-watch the episodes every now and again just to see some of the bits of info we missed/did not remember last time.

I would like if you point out how much work it is between dungeons to get access to the next dungeon, it would help because while the Temple of Droplets is kinda linear, it is a pain to actually ACCESS the dungeon

Minish Cap is my fav 2D Zelda!

I feel like this video in particular with your explanations of your diagrams and two styles of dungeon will be really helpful to me in designing dungeons in TTRPGs as the GM.

These videos are like comfort food. I like coming back and rewatching some old Boss Keys episodes!

Another series? Metroid perhaps... Those games, especially super metroid and Metroid prime, would be fascinating and complex pieces to discuss.

@PauLtus_B

7 жыл бұрын

I think these games often act as pretty gigantic singular dungeons, making a map would be incredibly complicated.

@bazangulon6791

7 жыл бұрын

Eh, as one massive hour long episode it would be a pain to make and might make less money and it'd be extremely difficult to go through it all. I think it'd be pretty cool though. I don't expect it.

@Lulink013

7 жыл бұрын

well... if you look at the mandatory items, there are around 10 I think, so it's like one dungeons with just a lot of filler rooms.

I do indeed love the graphs!

Your series and graph idea has really helped me design levels for a game I'm making, thanks so much for the inspiration!

I always looking forward to see new videos from you!

I don't think follow the path or find the path is better than the other. It's like saying ambient music is better than classical music. It depends on what you're feeling like. I appreciate linear paths if I just want to sit and play for 30 minutes before I go to work. But on weekends when I"m in the mood, non-linear paths are so much more fun and rewarding. It really depends on what the player is feeling like I think.

@Templarfreak

6 жыл бұрын

I think his main point is that most Follow The Path Dungeons in Zelda games aren't as good as Find The Paths, but that they can still can have the potential to be good as he gives off some points that he likes about some of the Follow's he talks about.

I want to see an analysis of Kirby level design. The older ones, at least

@alyastastic

7 жыл бұрын

That would be amazing

@THI555100

7 жыл бұрын

Kirby and the amazing mirror would be interesting, as it offers a lot of choice and is very well designed.

@DustyMusician

7 жыл бұрын

regina roozvelt Kirby and the Amazing Mirror is very well designed and has a fair amount of difficulty (for a Kirby game) too.

@THI555100

7 жыл бұрын

Dusty Chan Yea, and I like how much choice you have

@angolin9352

7 жыл бұрын

What level design? Just keep tapping A and nothing can hit you. You may have to press B every so often but then it's straight back to tapping A.

I love the "find" and "follow" descriptions for dungeons you came up with. I think it makes it easy to describe how they work mechanically, without sacrificing a way to state how those dungeons 'feel' for the player to explore! Capturing both their mechanics and more abstract game feel to me is so cool! The newly evolved dungeon layouts look great too!

I just wanted to say I love this series and I get really excited every time you release a new episode! Keep up the amazing work!

Loops are a big thing for me. I get really annoyed if I have to backtrack through huge parts of a dungeon to get back to the room I need to get to. I remember the first Darksiders did this in the first dungeon, and I really hated that. Zelda's very good at avoiding that.

@PauLtus_B

7 жыл бұрын

I really like looping back to a central room, but not looping to the next correct room.

@Bman54X

7 жыл бұрын

PauLtus B Yeah, that's fine too. I just like there to be some sort of loop. Having to backtrack down the same path I just took is awful design.

@PauLtus_B

7 жыл бұрын

***** Wouldn't say awful. Sometimes going back can be done in an interesting way.

@Bman54X

7 жыл бұрын

PauLtus B I guess if they change it up on the way back, but the part I'm thinking of in Darksiders didn't do that, so that's why i really didn't like it

@PauLtus_B

7 жыл бұрын

***** I like the idea of having to back in a way that is different then when you came there, like it seems like a no way back until you get the new item at the end (that's arguably the entire Temple of Time in Twilight Princess).

Mark, i can honestly say that this series, with its ever-developing Unified Adventure Game Theory of Design, is one of the most consistently exciting things going in games writing right now. i know you're planning future seasons of Boss Keys, but would you be averse to people applying a similar style of extremely granular, level-by-level games analysis? i can think of a whole pile of games i'd like to try this sort of thing with. i mean, i might be missing something in the critical circles that i follow, but i can't think of anybody else doing anything quite like this. i think you may have discovered the games criticism equivalent of close-reading a novel sentence by sentence. the only other example i can think of is the GooseGoose commentaries about Half-Life 2 and its episodes. i guess a close analogue would be developer commentaries on games, except done by critics instead of artists. i remember back in the day, reading walkthroughs on GameFAQs, my favorite part was always the little personal touches the writers would throw in about certain parts. this video series and the GooseGoose commentaries are like somebody took the most interesting walkthroughs and cut out all the parts where you actually explain how to beat the levels, leaving only the fascinating commentary and analysis.

@GMTK

7 жыл бұрын

Thanks! If someone else wants to devote about 200 hours to a ridiculous series like this then I'm not going to stop them ;)

I am loving the series and the ever evolving graphs. keep up the great work!

great episode, i love the new graphs, definitely makes them easier to read. I'm glad you're releasing them all. Excited for the TP episode!

I actually love the graphs.

Oh man I'm so excited for Twilight Princess! as well as other game dungeons and bosses.

Thanks for the episode. Nice seeing someone put into words what I'm feeling while playing Zelda. My favorite franchise.

Mark, thank you for these. Seeing your thought process as well as every other video you've put out has literally changed the way I think as a designer. You are an inspiration, and I can't wait to sign up to your Patreon in the future for the high quality and important content you put out.

Good hell these videos are fucking amazing. If they were 25 minutes each I would not complain

@doogelyjim8627

7 жыл бұрын

dude same

I would love to see you break down the Soulsborne series like you do these.

@PauLtus_B

7 жыл бұрын

I feel like the loop thing is incredibly common there with not much exception. But with DS1 about the entire game seems like that, which is pretty interesting.

@johnbradley2343

7 жыл бұрын

I think Dark Souls tends to have linear dungeons more often than Zelda, but the larger world in which the dungeons exist is much more interconnected. Instead of finding a path through one isolated dungeon, you have to find the path through a big world full of dungeons.

@uboa8548

7 жыл бұрын

I dunno, literally every single game design youtube has a section on Dark Souls, not much more can be said.

@PauLtus_B

7 жыл бұрын

I do think that after Dark Souls one it has been getting less interesting. 1 had that gigantic interconnection like Metroid games but as for the other entries in the series they're a lot more separate areas. And you're never getting that item that completely change how you can navigate it, you're not raising water levels or something like that. It's mostly a lot of "doors" that can only be opened from one side to get back to a bonfire.

This series is amazing, I love your analyses so much!

Amazing as expected. I always learn so much from each of your videos, and they're always entertaining. Keep it up Mark!

I'm definitely excited to see what series the next season of Boss Keys looks at. Maybe Dark Souls or Metroid?

@jiffylou98

7 жыл бұрын

oh, to see anyone unravel the ungodly mess that was Dark Souls' pathing. I'm down to watch someone lose their mind.

@Alevice

7 жыл бұрын

when you graph it its not as non linear as you might think alas.

@cptspoofy

7 жыл бұрын

It's probably going to be Metroid or Mario.

@sunname6252

7 жыл бұрын

Assuming no master key, it really is semi-linear. From Firelink you can go through New Londo, but only complete up to the boss and even then only if you kill Ingward, You can go through the catacombs to last bonfire in Tomb of the Giants, but again no boss, or you can go through Undead Burg which is a straight shot until you reach the chapel part of Parish. Then you can do Darkroot, more or less completely, Lower Burg, completely, or Blighttown + to first half of Demon Ruins. In truth it seems to always be a case of about three choices available from each major checkpoint, being Firelink, upper Undead Parish, Oreo and Smores. After o&s every branch except for Oolicale which is a branch off Duke's Archive and Darkroot, is available to finish.

@Mentaclink

7 жыл бұрын

Please be Metroid.

This may be a terrible idea, but one thing you could look into as for an explanation to the complexity of dungeons is graph theory. Composing graphs of vertices and edges to represent the possibilites of travel through dungeons could allow for deeper analysis as to how these things can be traversed (i.e. is there an H/E cycle for this particular dungeon, is this simple and connected? etc.)

Best episode so far. These are only getting better, and I (someone who thinks a lot about game design) am starting to notice some new things from this, such as I never really thought too much about loops.

Fantastic series! My favorite on KZread at this time. Good job.

I like how you managed to be a bit too much subjective but still fair by making it clear ( i like find the path, but i can see follow the path also as a mean to break things up and to offer different experience, especially since TMC has one of the most dynamic and interesting 2D fighting in zelda games ). A question - thoughts about letting subtitles to be proposed for the vids?

@GMTK

7 жыл бұрын

Oops, i forgot to turn on community subtitles. They can be submitted now!

@TheRayny

7 жыл бұрын

Mark Brown thank you a lot :D

Before Yooka Laylee comes out, you should do an episode on Banjo Kazooie as a game example of charm.

@Athados1

7 жыл бұрын

Funny thing is, I did actually do research on Spiral Mountain for being one of the best designed tutorial levels.

The new graphs are awesome! I love how you constantly design and redesign your videos while talking about design!

These videos are awesome, I can't wait for the next !

Nice video, +Mark Brown I'd reccomend (as I've done before on one of your videos) an anlysis of The early pojemon games route design for backtracking done right, and almost unnoticeable even. I can try to find my original comment where I fleshed out my thoughts, but Id also be curious to see you go at the topic from your own persoective.

Suggestion: after the series is over, could there be a big long recap video summing up the series, updating graphs for every game, and incorporating you new design insights from later episodes into the earlier games?

@GMTK

7 жыл бұрын

the series is building to an episode of Game Maker's Toolkit on Zelda dungeon design. Not sure what it will be about specifically! But, yeah, I decided to show my research process publicly for this one! as for graphs, i'll just put them on a website

Thanks a lot! Your explanations and graphs helped me a LOT while designing my own Zelda Dungeon for school. I'm a huge Zelda fan and you still enlightened me.

This video is really helping me gel a few ideas I have been having about designing my dungeons in tabletop RPGs.

Will you look at the 2 DS games as well? And what about Link between Worlds?

@s4ad0wpi

7 жыл бұрын

This game is 2D, and he's already looked at A Link to the Past, Link's Awakening, and BOTH Oracle games! He'll likely be looking at A Link Between Worlds when the time comes.

@patchpen5613

7 жыл бұрын

He said 2 DS games, which I assume refers to phantom hourglass and spirit tracks, which I assume he will look at.

@s4ad0wpi

7 жыл бұрын

I can't read... oops XD

@ShyGuyXXL

7 жыл бұрын

+Patchpen Yes, that's what I meant. XP

Hey Mark, what software do you use for your diagrams / animations?

@GMTK

7 жыл бұрын

Photoshop and Premiere

In one day this has become one of my favorite series on youtube. Thanks Extra Credits for the introduction and thanks for the great content Mark.

As a huge fan of charts, I must commend you on your fantastic, engrossing, and quite informative charts!

It is funny that you can get stuck in Fortress of Winds if you take the first three keys and uses them in the three doors that doesn't unlock the secret item! Anyway, I guess that in a game like Zelda you need both "follow the path" and "find the path" kind of dungeon, you just need to put the right scheme in the right place to make the game's rhythm good and to make the game itself interesting!

@GMTK

7 жыл бұрын

sorry, you can't get stuck. i just screwed up the graph a bit!

@zenotaddei

7 жыл бұрын

I look forward to see all the graphs! Your work is both interesting and inspiring!

Super excited to hear what you need to say about Twilight Princess! It's my favorite 3D Zelda game and I love the dungeons. But after consideration, I can get why some other people say the game is "horrible" when you look at the dungeon design. There are a lot of dungeons that are more "follow the path" than "find the path."

@cozyKyra

7 жыл бұрын

That is true, but it is still certainly my favourite Zelda too :) I had forgotten until replaying the HD release, but I'm having so much fun. If I remember correctly, the Forest and Lakebed temples are certainly find the path, while the Goron Mines is follow. Arbiters ground has two sections: first being find the path, second being follow. Not sure about Snowpeak, but it may fall under follow since the dungeon opens up piece by piece, though there is some backtracking and finding... Temple of Time and Palace of Twilight are certainly follow the path, and Sky City was find. So I think there's about an even amount of both types? It's not so bad in that respect...

@enigma1326

7 жыл бұрын

When I said "a lot" it was because all of them were up to interpretation. I was going to so say more equal, but after sitting down, I thought of instances where some of the initial "find the path" became "follow the path" like with Arbiters transitioning from one to the other. I felt that Lakebed was almost an amalgam of the two like Arbiters was. I think that's why a lot of people enjoy Arbiter's Grounds though. It is a really good mixture of both types. It has been a few months since I played both versions, and I am up to the Palace of Twilight so I can not rightfully place judgement on it.

@SuperFirstSecond

7 жыл бұрын

Twilight Princess is probably my least favorite of the main Zelda games, but its definitely not due to its dungeons (its the wolf stuff and weird set piece scenes like the bridge fights and carriage escort that ruin it for me). The dungeons themselves are some of my personal favorites, Snowpeak Ruins especially.

@enigma1326

7 жыл бұрын

I've had several people (my own husband included) who live near me say it was the dungeons that they hated. The only thing I personally hated about TP was the swimming and kargorock flying mechanics...and Midna not de-z-targeting herself when I was jumping to her!

Hey, excellent job on the video, Mark! You're videos are my favourite things to watch on KZread, and thank you for acknowledging and explaining your view on back tracking. Keep up the awesome work!

I liked your charts before, but I really love them now. They've been really inspiring for my own dungeon design in my tabletop games.