Let us know your thoughts on the choice Joel made at the end. If you enjoyed this video then please subscribe to the channel kzread.info/dron/q3hT5JPPKy87JGbDls_5BQ.html *Check out our BEST new videos below* *You Season 4 Part 2 Ending Explained* - kzread.info/dash/bejne/n4lktLuTYta6oZM.html *Mandalorian Season 3 Episode 2* - kzread.info/dash/bejne/eJun0cWLobK1cZc.html *The Last Of Us Episode 9 Breakdown* - kzread.info/dash/bejne/o2Zhp8msZZnfj6w.html *Creed 3 Ending Explained* - kzread.info/dash/bejne/mZysm9t7dJOzcqw.html *Kang's New Origin Story Explained* - kzread.info/dash/bejne/i5OJw9mvqa--YLQ.html *Ant-Man And The Wasp Quantumani Post Credits Scene* - kzread.info/dash/bejne/aIGbs8h9mprWprA.html

@bryanheilman4376

Жыл бұрын

I'm up in the air about it. He was saving Ellie and I don't know if I trust the Fireflies. But if the vaccine is real and could of saved humanity than he was wrong.

@colpul2103

Жыл бұрын

Here's the thing that makes me 100% side with Joel: Ellie wouldn't be dying for a cure, she would have been killed for the CHANCE at a cure. It wasn't Eillie = vaccine, it was Eillie = MAYBE a vaccine. And that chance seems from what the show told us to be vanishingly small. And, they gave Joel no reason to believe it was more than a shot in the dark. The Doctor is just a doctor, not specialist or researcher who'd been studying this type of thing, just a doctor. The opening of the series remember? "And, there are no treatments for this. No preventatives, no cures. They don't exist. It is not even possible to make them." Yet a Family Med doctor with decades old equipment and no support academically technically knows how to get the cure? They are so sure they need to put her down with in hours of her arriving. They don't want to study her? Maybe run some blood work, giver an MRI, CT scan... or test a sample of the fungus from her? They are only speculating on a hypothisis why Ellie is immune (actually asymptomatic)? Maybe it isn't a chemical, maybe it's in her genes. Maybe it is the strain she’s infected with like having had cowpox makes you immune to smallpox. Maybe the cure lies in her antigens, maybe a biopsy of her cortex would be enough, or a spinal tap to examine the chemicals and see if they can be synthetically produced.... If they have the capacity to get a cure from a dead Ellie they should also the capacity to get a cure from an alive Ellie. But they don't even have the facilities or expertise to examine or test so they are just throwing a dart blindfolded from a merry-go-round in a pitch black room not knowing if there's even a dart board there. And by going ahead with this they lose any future chance that they could actually find a cure from experiments with Ellie’s resistance.

@Kelticfury

Жыл бұрын

Joel wasn't right, but I would have done the exact same thing.

@OneMore1UP

Жыл бұрын

Another thing about Ellies choice, if it was you that was Ellie...should you have really make the choice to end your life to "potentially" save the human race...

@jcaashby3

Жыл бұрын

From what we see in the show the infected are not even a threat. Its starvation, exposure and raiders are the bigger threat. Being free from the virus seems LOW on the totem pole.

I think there is an important fact about Marlene: She never asked Ellie. Ellie would have said yes, but Marlene didn't know that. Ellie did not owe humanity anything. So Marlene was also in the wrong. The choice did not belong to her. Her action, no matter how noble the cause, was still murder.

@hydrangeadragon

Жыл бұрын

Ellie is a minor, is seriously traumatized and has tremendous survivors guilt, she's not able to give legitimate consent to any such a thing

@paulpach

Жыл бұрын

@@hydrangeadragon I agree with all that. However Marlene is not her parent or guardian, and her parents are not around to ask them. Quite the opposite, her mother explicitly told her to protect Ellie. So either way, Marlene had no right to make that decision for her.

@JBR1704

Жыл бұрын

​@@paulpach technically she is her guardian, Ellie's mom gave her to Marlene before she died

@breburke7286

Жыл бұрын

​@@paulpach If her mother explicitly told Marlene to protect her doesn't that technically make her Ellie's guardian?

@imeshumayanga7967

Жыл бұрын

@@breburke7286 And her guardian’s decision is to kill her without consent? Her mother would agree that Joel is the better guardian.

Joel essentially made the same decision that Ellie's mom made when Ellie's mom told Marlene about cutting the cord after she was bit....she lied to save Ellie's life the same way Joel did. It shows us what we as parents will do to save our kids

@alastairclarke

Жыл бұрын

Well said.

@Twistedwolf-ru2qk

Жыл бұрын

I just don't understand why He did'nt just tell her what they were going to do? I mean they put her under and were not goin to give her a choice or tell her. We don't know 100% if the cure would even work.

@samlipper3803

Жыл бұрын

@@Twistedwolf-ru2qk ellie was willing to die for the cure

@odizza1688

Жыл бұрын

DEEP

@odizza1688

Жыл бұрын

​@@Twistedwolf-ru2qk you should be asking that question of Marlene. Ellie would've made the sacrifice willingly but not without letting Joel know her decision. Joel would've respected it Marlene ruined EVERYTHING with her approach. Marlene just proves the modern woman isn't built for the apocalypse 😂😂😂

If Marlene wasn’t in such a rush to get Ellie into surgery it may have ended differently. If Joel had been able to see Ellie and ask her if she was willing to die, he may have let it happen. Maybe not, but we believe Ellie would say yes and Joel respects Ellie, and I think he would have respected her choice.

@The_Sleepiest_Socialist

Жыл бұрын

Even if he wouldn’t respect her choice, can we really blame him? NO, but it would make so much more sense with part two.

@morimo11

Жыл бұрын

@@NH-pi5dw when did I ever say that I thought it would work? I’m saying Marlene could have probably prevented Joel from killing everyone by either asking Ellie, letting Joel see her, or both,

@morimo11

Жыл бұрын

@@NH-pi5dw wtf are you even talking about? You’re awful arrogant for someone with such poor reading comprehension. Sure if I’m ever in a post apocalyptic situation I’ll be sure to reference your ridiculous commentary.🙄

@mrx-od3ji

Жыл бұрын

@@morimo11 yes joei did the right thing i would have did the same thing to save her i would have killed all the flyflies.

@TheNeon42

Жыл бұрын

@morimo - Thank you for bringing this up. It drives me crazy how this is not mentioned enough. The Fireflies did not treat Joel with enough respect, nor Ellie for that matter. Considering that they traveled so far on their own, the original meet up spot was littered with dead fireflies, Tess is not with Joel and Ellie, and that the fireflies wanted to kill Joel instead of honor their deal. If this story was made in the 1990's then perhaps, Joel and Ellie would have been able to say their goodbyes to each other and the story would have ended bitter-sweet. But Noooo! they thought they could push Joel around and that's exactly what they got because of it. Sir you get a 👍from me!

I lost my 6 week old son in a car accident in 2020 and I can really relate to Joel’s decision, I just had a son last year and I treat this child completely different now, I should probably not be so protective of him but I can’t go through that ever again

@sethmorales1519

Жыл бұрын

@@ThirstyCowboy thank you

@robertol.pineda7891

Жыл бұрын

I'm sorry. Wish you and your son a happy life.

@Gamernlte

Жыл бұрын

im sorry for your loss

@pchiethegreat1

Жыл бұрын

Sorry for the loss, brother.

@dimis2140

Жыл бұрын

Sorry for your loss!

People think the procedure was guaranteed but in reality there was no guarantee they would have found a cure.

@cky7765

Жыл бұрын

Right??

@jcaashby3

Жыл бұрын

Also from the show only. Were the infected that big of a threat? The show failed to show them as a threat at every turn. So it made me feel like is a cure really needed? Sure it would be great but I could easily see the fireflies being selective who gets it and who doesnt. IF it even worked like you said.

@subodhdk

Жыл бұрын

Agree. “Our doctor believes that the cordyceps has grown with her” and no tests, no imaging, no confirmation of what the doctor believes to be true, no plan to use that to make a vaccine and yet they make haste to open her up.

@aweaver6895

Жыл бұрын

Exactly. It looked like that "surgeon" was running a pretty half ass operation. Is he a lab tech, too? An expert in virology? Shouldn't they keep her alive for extensive research and trials? I'm with Joel.

@rieyuki

Жыл бұрын

@@aweaver6895 In a bigger comment here, I basically said the same things you did here, and argued that the doctor was grossly incompetent because he must have been a chiropractor. Boy was way out of his league. 😂

Feel like so much of this could have been avoided if the Fireflies didn't just throw Ellie's consent out the window. If Joel could have been given time to see Ellie to talk about the procedure and Ellie given time to talk to him, I feel like she could have convinced him that that was what she 100% wanted to do with her life and was ready to lay down that sacrifice. While it would have still hurt to let her go, at least Joel would see that it was, in fact, her choice to go through with the brain surgery and respect that. So if we're choosing teams, I'm personally siding with Joel on this one.

@caseyhart4999

Жыл бұрын

Indeed. The fireflies demonstrated pretty conclusively that if Ellie did decline to go through with it hearing the consequences, they would have still tried to kill her anyway

@yusufraage8554

Жыл бұрын

Marlene didnt ask because she doesnt know Ellie and she could not risk the chance of being honest. If Joel were in her position he would know Ellie is a savior and would save anybody let alone the whole of humanity.

@billykorando6820

Жыл бұрын

Marlene/Fireflies didn’t ask because they sacrificed too much/were too bought in on their path that they weren’t in a position to respect a “no” from Ellie.

@amidopey8804

Жыл бұрын

100% agree with this… Ellie wasn’t given the opportunity to choose… her agency was taken away and that was wrong… and they (Joel/Ellie) weren’t given a chance to say goodbye…

@tracydale154

Жыл бұрын

I agree.

One thing is certain. If I were Marlene, I definitely would have waited until after the deed was done before telling Joel. I get why she thought Joel would understand, but her fatal mistake was not knowing about his daughter.

@markdelavega4953

Жыл бұрын

Bro..In part 2, they show what really happen before Marlene tell Joel that Ellie will die..I highly suggest you search it on youtube... ..Apparently, Dr. Jerry Anderson don't want Marlene to tell Joel that the operation will kill Ellie, but Marlene insist that Joel has the right to know cause he risk his life to take Ellie to them...They also show that Marlene don't want to sacrifice Ellie, She tell Dr. Anderson, "If that was Abby, your daughter, would you still do it???" At first, I thought Joel's decision to finish Marlene is the right thing to do...After watching part 2, I realized Marlene was honest whenshe tells Joel that the firefly won't pursue Ellie anymore that is why Joel should show mercy on her...

@thompsjf1

Жыл бұрын

Well Written

@Gadget-Walkmen

Жыл бұрын

It's not just "not knowing about his daughter", it's just that Marlene COULDN'T have known how much time joel and ellie spent with each other and how much they bonded along the way. That simple.

@TheSundayShooter

Жыл бұрын

@@markdelavega4953 That's a retcon, doesn't count ツ

@markdelavega4953

Жыл бұрын

@@TheSundayShooter Most people count retcons, including me..If you don't, that's fine with me...Beside I don't consider it as a retcon cause I don't find any inconsistency about that plot and I always think that delaying the showing of Marlene and Dr. Anderson's conversation is part of plan cause it will make the players symphatize to Joel even more and it work tremendously that most players closed their mind about the beauty of Part 2 coz IMO Part 2 is better than part 1...I might be alone in that opinion so please don't crucify me because of that :)

The biggest flaw in this part of the story was how quickly the doctor landed on 'we gotta kill her.' A proper brain surgeon could take a sample of the cordyceps from the immune host's brain without killing them. If you only have one sample source for this benign type of cordyceps, you would want to preserve the host body as long as possible. I would think you'd run trials with the first replicated samples, in-vitro and in-vivo testing in animals which were known to carry the harmful cordyceps first, then on humans who were either just infected or terminal patients who were willing to volunteer to be infected. But you'd keep Ellie alive until you figured it out, right? You've waited 20+ years for this. Killing her would be a last resort and only after months upon months of alternative failures. This leads me to believe they were going to fail to produce a cure from the outset. Joel, as a father, did the right thing. His only mistake, which we know he will pay dearly for, was lying to Ellie afterward.

@daddyGbaby

Жыл бұрын

I'm guess they didn't have right tool to ensure ellie was stable during the procedure.

Any parent or person that has experienced the type of loss that changes your entire life, it’s not even a question. And even if you haven’t, episode one they had that biologist from Jakarta explicitly say, there is no cure for this type of infection. If there was no hope for a cure while the world was at its best, there’s no way one team of medical professionals are engineering a vaccine in that run down hospital. This was the best version of Joel and he is the true hero IMO. These insane people were going kill the only known immune person to exist- if the vaccine fails, they destroy their only hope in finding out what or why she is or became immune. Keeping her alive, researching, reproducing her genes, is what could actually save the world.

@allegate387

Жыл бұрын

Also didn't they say that they thought that her infection made her invisible to the cordyceps? The two bites say that's a lie, never mind if they had talked to her she could have said, "Oh yeah they chased me all the time". I think he did the right thing because all it was in the end was hope, misplaced at that.

@adrianvanleeuwen

Жыл бұрын

The biologist was sort of wrong. Ellie's existence proves there is another method of bypassing one type of infection with another type of mutated infection that is less life threatening.

@ranger_savage8406

Жыл бұрын

There were a bit of creative liberties taken in the biologist scene, we actually do have medicines that can combat fungus, not explicitly the kind that can fight something below the skin like depicted in the last of us but we do have it. In the world of the last of us iirc it's an alternate reality where fungus research was even less than our world as well.... yknow, on top of the fact they had rapidly growing fungus that somehow hyper-evolved in one generation to perfectly control humans the way it needs to basically bring all of humanity to its knees.

@snowi8650

Жыл бұрын

Its not a cure from cordycepts. Its that ellie has kind of "harmless" infection so the "bad" infection doesnt try to attack her. So its kind of like vaccine.

@mattgilbert7347

Жыл бұрын

Yes. Ellie was new data that biologist did not have access to, although the logistics of manufacturing and distributing the treatment are mind-boggling. If we assume that it is possible, even a small possibility, then I would have to say that it's worth the sacrifice. Empathy is not always the best guide to making morally defensible decisions. Rationality tempered by compassion is better.

Let's focus on the events that happened in this episode. - Joel gave Ellie another choice to just go back to Tommy's and forget about the ~cure~ but respected Ellie's wishes to continue going on - The Fireflies, for some big brain reasons, decided to throw a grenade at them rather than just stopping them to idk escort them to the hospital???? Lmfao instead, bomb goes boom. -Joel opened up to Ellie, became vulnerable and honest. That moment together was their way of saying I love you to each other (confirmed by the showrunners in the podcast) so they obviously care for one another. Ellie as Joel's another chance to save his "daughter" and Joel as Ellie's person who will never leave or die, hence her saying she's glad Joel failed to aliven't himself. - Marlene, another smooth brain, didn't inform Ellie about the surgery. Ellie thought they're just gonna draw blood from her and it's done. Given that the Fireflies soldiers only knocked Joel out (at least that's how we're shown), couldn't they or Marlene talk to Ellie about things pre-surgery? Nope, Marlene didn't want Ellie to have autonomy. She's willing to sacrifice her best friend's daughter for a cure that's not even guaranteed to work. Remember Ellie's mom Anna telling Marlene to find someone to take care of Ellie? Marlene was never a parental figure because she's busy being a leader. When she tells Joel she understands, it's coming from a different point of view. Joel protected Ellie as his own daughter, Marlene cared for Ellie because of a promise to a friend and now, she's a potential bandaid solution to a seemingly endless problem. A cure? The doctor from the 2nd episode already said it's impossible, there's nothing like it. -Even the doctor is Jimmy Neutron Albert Einstein IQ level, him and 2 nurses can't realistically create and synthesize a cure. That hospital is dirty as shit as well. I'm sure I missed a lot but yeah. Sure as shit that "cure" won't work. Seriously, we were in a pandemic and look how long it took for them to develop vaccines, heck, the virus is not even eradicated completely. This is different from the cordyceps in the show and for sure, based on the professor that we've seen in episode 2, there's no cure for that nor will it miraculously eradicate the cordyceps all over the world.

@zizoumonk10

Жыл бұрын

Artistic licenses taken for dramatic amelioration

@pollypuffington2243

Жыл бұрын

BINGO!! ALL THIS RIGHT HERE⬆️

@timmendoza3782

Жыл бұрын

Yes! Another point to add is that a "cure" or a "vaccine" isnt gonna fix the world or humanity. There are people like David, ravagers, slavers, cannibals, etc etc that THRIVED in the apocalypse. A cure for the cordycep infection isnt gonna change those people. All in all I would agree with Joels decision. Those motherf***ers dont deserve a cure 🤣🤣🤣

@AdwoaKaren

Жыл бұрын

Exactly

@cky7765

Жыл бұрын

Exactly you smart mf 👏👏👍 someone who actually knows what their talking about

This was a "crime of passion" for me. I think one key point that people don't mention is the fact that Marlene said she understands but Joel on his knees said "Please...You don't understand" Marlene didn't understand this Joel that has found and felt love once again.

@mrx-od3ji

Жыл бұрын

yes joei did the right thing i would have did the same thing to save her i would have killed all the flyflies.

I feel ellie wasn't expecting to die she said she would follow him anywhere and Marlene didn't say it was for sure that this would actually work as a vaccine

@Cliohna

Жыл бұрын

That's exactly it. She didn't know she might die. Although she says in episode 9: "After all we've been through, everything I've done. It can't be for nothing." She also says: "When we're done, we'll go wherever you want. Tommy's, sheep ranch, the moon. I'll follow you anywhere you go." Clearly indicating she expects to survive anything the Fireflies do to her for the cure. When she says "There's no half way with this. We finish what we started." She was talking about getting her to the Fireflies. At first it was just to the ones outside of Boston. That was the mission. They already went above and beyond if you think about it.

@emperorpalpatine6239

Жыл бұрын

The show literally implied that the vaccine would work…

@jacobgonzalez2002

Жыл бұрын

@@emperorpalpatine6239 Proof?

@noneofyourbusiness4294

Жыл бұрын

@@emperorpalpatine6239 literally the opposite. Right at the beginning they were talking about how fungal infections would be much worse than a virus. And that tracks. In the real world, things kept going and we still don't have a vaccine against any fungal infection. Neither harmless but annoying ones, nor actually dangerous ones. In the TLOU universe, things stood still for literal decades, Ellie has a unique condition as far as anyone knows, and somehow some random Firefly "scientist" has the answer without being able to do any research? It's the Fireflies saying "dude, trust me" and nothing else.

@emperorpalpatine6239

Жыл бұрын

@@jacobgonzalez2002 It’s literally said in the show. Hell, even the writers said so.

Imo it isn't so much about Joel choosing wrong, it was about Marlene making bad choices regarding both Ellie and Joel. She should have either talked to both of them together about what the situation entailed and let them discuss it and come to the conclusion that it's what needed to be done and what Ellie wants, or she should've just killed them both mercifully. Ripping Ellie unceremoniously away from Joel and trying to force him to just go away and do nothing was the most disastrous choice she could have made.

@sleekelegancesuave

Жыл бұрын

true true and it caused him to act the way he did, ellie was ready to do it but Marlene execution of it was totally off. Not gonna lie i understand why he did what he did but i hate he did it because i love Marlene so i can say now Joel death would not be sad for me but Ellie reaction to it will probably touch me more than him actually dying, this is honestly the joel i didnt wont but whatever

@ginawolfe155

Жыл бұрын

I agree. Marlene treated Joel and Ellie as, how Joel put it in the beginning,“cargo”. She too had lost her own humanity. I keep saying this, but why was surgery the only option??? How do we know that she can’t pass on the immunity to a child??? Maybe try harvesting some eggs first.

@sleekelegancesuave

Жыл бұрын

@@ginawolfe155 thats even more brutal, harvesting eggs, so you want them to impregnate her it sounds like🤷🏾

@enochgraham4957

Жыл бұрын

Really good points dude. Also, sorry that other guy copied your comment. In the future, don't engage with people who do that. It just makes their plagiarized comment higher in the KZread algorithm

@Azriel884

Жыл бұрын

I came here to give this comment a like since that other person copy and pasted your comment. If y'all both bots, ima feel like an idiot🤣

Joel is the true definition of a “renegade” he’s willing to unspeakable things for those he cares for.. showing an enormous amount of love ❤️ while at the same time is completely heartless … the complexities are fascinating

I think something that the games also show a lot better is Marlene's character in terms of her "leadership". The point that Marlene/the fireflies would just hand out the cure (and there's another rabbit hole of questions to go there but lets assume it works), is completely divorced from reality. In the games its made very clean through the audio logs that Marlene is way more power hungry than she lets on and would anything to keep herself on top. Tommy hinted at this at the Dam when talking about why he left them.

@lucyandecember2843

Жыл бұрын

o.o

@danielsalas1064

Жыл бұрын

Great input

When Marlene said “what would Ellie want” I laughed. If I was Joel I would’ve said “idk and you don’t either because you didn’t ask her.” The hypocrisy of the fireflies is enough for me to agree with what Joel did on it’s own. Then add in no one even knows if the surgery or cure will even work and the sneaky, knife in the back, way the went about everything they did and I don’t blame Joel at all.

@Easymoney9864

Жыл бұрын

@@DanFarrell98 do you think if Riley was alive she still would’ve wanted to do it

@jacobgonzalez2002

Жыл бұрын

@@DanFarrell98 How would you know?

@evanjuleen

Жыл бұрын

I fully believe they wouldn't have found a cure and it would have been for nothing....

@Chef_JRod

Жыл бұрын

​@@DanFarrell98 doesnt matter what anyone thinks. They never asked and Ellie never got a chance to decide. That alone would be good enough reason to not go through with it.

@HighPhoenix1754

6 ай бұрын

To add to that... they went back on Joel's payment. They were going to exile him. None of his equipment, and none of the guns and supplies that he was promised. The same woman that made the deal with him. Btw.

I love the music they choose when Joel was killing the fireflies because it wasn'ta moment of triumph but one of betrayal also Ellie days she was afraid of being alone but now Joel is much more afraid of being alone than her I think...

There’s some connection here with what happens with Ellie, and when Kathleen tells Henry that “kids die Henry, they die all the time”. Like how much is one child worth? Or something.

@l05555

Жыл бұрын

Great point

@TheSundayShooter

Жыл бұрын

Yep- last time Joel heard an argument like that, ended worse for everybody

I lost my Brother in 2009, when he was 25. To this day, every day since, I’ve felt that loss. My Mom did, too. I feel like I can relate to Joel’s long lasting grief, and think it was portrayed so well in the show.

@edwardnygma5549

Жыл бұрын

Im sorry for your loss

@IanMSantos

Жыл бұрын

@@edwardnygma5549 Thank you. I appreciate this.

@keypeng4164

Жыл бұрын

only a democrat liberal brandon supporter would virtue signal like this. makes sense you would be that selfish. MAGA Trump train in the house LET'S GO BRANDON

@Yolduranduran

Жыл бұрын

Sorry fpr thw loss of your brother. I agree that the portrayal of grief was well done.

Here's another question: would Abby's dad have been so willing to sacrifice her life for a potential cure?

@OMGACKT24

Жыл бұрын

I don't believe that he would. Marlene asks him twice in the flashback from TLOU2 if he would make the same decision with Abby and he never answers her.

@cleigh113

Жыл бұрын

good point to ponder

@JK-kb3cr

Жыл бұрын

No. He also decides to pull a scalpel on Joel instead of getting out of his way, even though Joel has a gun. How insane is this guy about cutting up Ellie? He's a doctor! What sort of doctor kills patients?

@adtastic1533

Жыл бұрын

What kinda Dr operates on someone without consent?

@daddyGbaby

Жыл бұрын

@@adtastic1533 the kind that got consent from her guardian.

Both Joel and Marlene were wrong. They needed Ellie's honest self opinion without anybody's manipulation.

@yusufraage8554

Жыл бұрын

Ellie is a kid and an orphan only a guardian can make such decision for her and Joel is the guardian not Marlene.

@curious4466

Жыл бұрын

@@yusufraage8554 they're heck no guardian neither Marlene or Joel. They're both betrayers of their own trust and respect. That's the sh*tty world they lived in. A mother figure who's gonna kill Ellie without her knowing and a father figure who kill her hope. They both thought her as their guiding light yet that guiding light was struggling to keep herself bright and they didn't care to lift it up but wanted that light for themselves.

@jcaashby3

Жыл бұрын

Yea I felt this way for years. They both made choices for her. Both lied to her.

@P4boot

Жыл бұрын

@@curious4466 Joel made the right decision for Ellie. Ellie hoped to save the world while still having her life (“i will go with you wherever you go”) . Fireflies was a about to murder her with uncertain chances of making the vaccine. Only wrong Joel did was lying to Ellie.

@RiceDaddy07

Жыл бұрын

And if you were Marlene and Ellie had said no? Let's assume there was a very high chance of the cure working.

Ellie saved humanity, Joel's humanity, which in turn made Joel save Ellie.

@bigolomofe415

Жыл бұрын

that is just a messed up twist lol

@miko67

Жыл бұрын

and murdered everyone in the process. the end didn't justify the means.

@hardcorevictor2552

7 ай бұрын

@miki67 well… let’s say that to the group of so called « saviors of the world » who would willingly use children lifes as raw material ressources pretending saving many other. Sacrificing lives in order to save others is an hypocritical compromise cause you don’t value a human life ! You’ll find me misanthropic but a human race who would act this way doesn’t deserve to be saved.

I think it is important to note that Marlene was never a mother figure to Elle. She never cared enough about Elle to be a part of her life. She did the bare minimum that was asked if her by Elle's mother and that is consistent with her character. The only thing that mattered to her was the revolution she was trying to achieve. She would have sacrificed anyone to further her goals.

Joel was right cuz if he hadn't saved her, then we wouldn't have a season 2

@munkayttaja6913

Жыл бұрын

We would've

@chatter4427

Жыл бұрын

a world with vaccines and the conflict and change that brings, playing as heartbroken Joel. would've been a better season 2

It's rare that Joel and Ellie experience a humanity that is worth saving. Marlene and the fireflies are ready to kill Ellie after a year of not knowing she's alive or even on the way. No tests, no preparation to make a cure, no consent from Ellie that she is willing to give her life. When Marlene is telling Joel it's what Ellie wants, she knows she has no understanding of what Ellie wants and is willing to sacrifice, which is why they never asked her or told her what would happen. It's hard to say Joel didn't make the right decision when the Fireflies haven't shown to be moral actors to be trusted.

Everything about resources, firefly incompetence, “the world isn’t worth saving”, the fireflies being just like FEDRA, whether or not the cure is possible, and on and on, ultimately doesn’t matter. One thing matters to Joel in that hospital, “Ellie is my daughter and if you try to kill her, I’ll kill you”

Joel actually didn't go against Ellie wishes. Ellie thought she was gonna live. She said after this, she would follow him anywhere. Marlene is the bad one here. She admitted she didn't give Ellie the choice. And joel couldn't make them wake Ellie to give her the choice. Because they clearly didn't care what Ellie would choose. They chose for her. They don't even know if it would work. They weren't gonna test her blood or anything else first. They essentially were gonna kill Ellie. Because she had no idea they were gonna take her brain out. That's murder. Also, what would they do with the cure if it worked. Would they hold it over people head?

@mat9h1

Жыл бұрын

This is completely true. I think Ellie's wishes would also consider what the decision would mean for Joe. I doubt she'd rush to be the martyr until it was clear there were no other options.

@MALLYGEEZ1

Жыл бұрын

@Michael Taylor When Marlene said, I didn't tell her. I was like, is this lady crazy. Also, they're not gonna test her blood for antibiotics? Then the surgeon saying I don't know if we have enough power to finish the surgery. Really!

@chatter4427

Жыл бұрын

oh, they for sure could've waited in that garage, or let her choose after they left the place. but both of them didn't care about her choice tbh

@MALLYGEEZ1

Жыл бұрын

@chatter There was no waiting in the garage. Why would joel trust Marlene after she didn't tell Ellie. And threatened to have him shot if he tried anything. Joel only had 1 option. Get her out of there. Marlene definitely did not care about Elie choice. Why would she honor her waking up for a choice. Joel had every reason not to trust anything Marlene said in that garbage. He doesn't know if she has more men on the way. Joel would have be killed, and Ellie brain would have been taken out.

Marlene is operating on a sense of DUTY, and also believes the ends justify the means. And she took away Ellie's agency because of this. And I agree, the Fireflies with a cure would weaponize it for control. Her sense of duty is also why she's willing to sacrifice a kid SHE raised. There's no love there. Joel is operating on a sense of LOVE. He loves Ellie as her own child. And while he took away her agency as well, it makes more sense to me - it's to protect her when she couldn't protect herself. TLDR: So yeah, I'm on team Joel. Here's why. I'm a father of five healthy, amazing adult children. And as a father I heavily relate to Joel and his feelings towards Ellie. She is, for all intents and purposes now, HIS daughter. And the love you feel for your child is so primal, so intense that it's almost frightening. Most parents I know would scorch the planet for their kids, especially when they're children. Right or wrong, you cannot ask a father to willingly sacrifice their INNOCENT child - and in this case their ONLY child, the only thing that is giving his life purpose - for any reason. Even if it's to save humanity. Is that morally defensible? Well, that's open for debate (and it's probably not, to be honest). But I understand why he made the decision he did. And to be honest, right or wrong, I would have done the same for any one of my kids.

@perceivedvelocity9914

Жыл бұрын

I'm a father of three kids and I agree with you 100%. This may sound odd but.... My children are the reason why I participate in society. I couldn't sacrifice one of my children for the greater good of the society as a whole.

@asciiavatar

Жыл бұрын

That Marlene 'raised' Ellie is not entirely accurate. Ellie was acquianted with Marlene, but Ellie grew up in a FEDRA orphanage. Marlene dumped her off on the very people she came to oppose. Marlene only came back into Ellie's life when Ellie had something to contribute to the cause - possible cure.

@yusufraage8554

Жыл бұрын

Marlene never raised Ellie she dumbed her at FEDRA as soon as she came to Boston.

@jcaashby3

Жыл бұрын

Ellie did not even know WHO Marlene was.

@RockneOliver

Жыл бұрын

@@asciiavatar - Good point.

After my nephew was adopted, I avoided all kids, and never wanted to have any myself. In my 20's I had a daughter, she was a perfect little asshole, just like her dad was. He died when she was 3 so I really loved that was just like him. She's now 21 and if I had to give her up to save humanity, I'd totally do what Joel did so I'm on his side. I'd become a mass murderer for my daughter. I believe that Marlene knew Ellies mom was bit while she was still umbilically attached to Ellie, she had to have been aware that was why Ellie was immune. Knowing all that I don't understand why Marlene didn't round up some other pregnant women and have them bit right before they give birth. It's just as fuked up as Marlene letting her friends child be a lab rat/killed to find a cure...

Do you think the Fireflies would give the cure to everyone? I think they would use it as leverage against anyone who was not on their side.

A parent's purpose is to protect their child and prepare them to be an adult. Sacrificing a child for the greater good goes against every instinct that a parent has. I strongly suspect that the vast majority of parents would do exactly what Joel did if they were asked to make that choice.

Joel was more brutal than the punisher going through the fire fly like hot knife through butter. Fantastic episode

@silasen02

Жыл бұрын

Yeah the Way he let go of all humanity to kill everybody trying to stop him. Crazy

@Spoonydarksydejay

Жыл бұрын

That was a cool sequence indeed! But I found it a bit odd, in the TV series they express how "old" and "weak" Joel is getting. And someone like his younger brother Tommy might be more suited to look after Ellie. Yet at the end there he pretty much Jon wick soloed the entire Fireflies garrison like it was nothing. xD

@Criticalhitkoala

Жыл бұрын

@@Spoonydarksydejay They were probably used to zerg rushing Zombies and not someone who can take cover and shoot back who actually had the training.

@lossypooh

Жыл бұрын

​@@Spoonydarksydejay not really Joel had more experience remember he always was a loner, the fireflies were always in a group so their guard & experience was lower.... Eg was when they were walking Joel out he keeps stopping & none of them picked that up... Ik everything is scripted but that how the write portrayed them

@mrfun177

Жыл бұрын

@@Spoonydarksydejay Joel was a soldier like his brother before they were contracters before the collapse. Most of the firefly soldiers seem to be born right before the collapse or after and thus have none of the experience joel has.

I still can’t help but think Joel would have let it happen had Marlene gave him a chance to have some final moments together and todo Ellie straight up what was gonna happen instead of lying

@nick2788

Жыл бұрын

Yeah no. He never would let that happen maralene is a fucking lunatic

@HypocritesExposd

Жыл бұрын

I don’t think for a moment he would’ve let it happen even if they were able to say goodbye. Joel could not and would not allow himself to lose another “child.” If he allowed it, he was also dooming himself to self deleting successfully this time. Imagine Joel allowing it to happen and then Ellie’s sacrifice did not amount to a cure? His new life goal is to execute every firefly in existence.

@jakedutton5424

Жыл бұрын

Joel is a selfish and greedy person, there's no way he would have walked away and let her die

"It's beyond right or not" is dead on. Joel had two terrible options presented to him. There was no right choice available.

The last moments of Ellie’s mode and her plans for the future kinda made Joel believe that she wouldn’t want that.

Call it selfishness, but it's the right thing for Joel. He answered it in part 2. It's wrong for humanity, but what would you do if humanity turned its back to you. Just imagine that you live in the world they live in.

@Fedaykin24

Жыл бұрын

The thing is humanity has plenty of hope even if they don't have a cure/vaccine. It just requires a bit of adjustment, Joel's brothers community is not only surviving but thriving. The Fireflys and FEDRAS insistence on clinging onto the old cities is part of the problem. America is a HUGE country that also borders the equally huge Canada, smaller town based communities in more remote colder parts of the country (the fungus doesn't like the cold) are more than capable of surviving and even growing. They have a mechanism to detect infected people not only via the detectors but also by using dogs, the use of natural features, guards and walls to keep out wandering infected are more than workable. There would be challenges but you would end up with a level of technology and society not unlike the American frontier in the late 1800s. Introduction of some form of marshal service to fend off bandits etc could even lead to some form of inter community trade as long as they used precautions against infection.

Even if Marlene had asked for Ellie's consent, she would have been manipulating a child with survivors guilt into throwing her life away for nothing. Joel did the right thing as her father and guardian no matter which way you slice it.

@richardbarton5910

Жыл бұрын

Whoa I did not think of that if that's the case then Marlene can burn in hell

Marlene's unwillingness to even ask Ellie for her permission, showed her own indifference, to the lives of others. She was willing to murder a child, because she believed Ellie, had greater value, as a dead medical experiment, than alive as a child. There is no right or wrong here, only tragedy. A truly stunning TV series.

There was no guarantee the procedure would have resulted in a cure, and Ellie's death most likely would have been in vain. Marlene and the Fireflies were just putting all their faith in some last ditch effort to end the apocalypse, but realistically the answer is more complicated than 1 immune girl and a room with 3 medical staff. They already had a flashback earlier in the season where an expert in the field of fungai said there was no cure and subsequently informed the military to bomb an entire city; that's with a whole slew of resources and doctors that could have worked towards a cure and something the post outbreak world was very much lacking. I also find it pretty hard to believe that the Fireflies were the sole group to find someone immune. The CDC and U.S. government have way more resources than some ragtag faction and those institutions didn't just fall over night; odds are they encountered people immune to the Cordyceps and experimented on them with no success. The real moral question here is whether we take that risk to give humanity a chance at a cure or save a single life knowing there are no guarantees? I am a father of 3 and being put in Joel's situation I would have made the same choice, and accepted whatever consequences came with it.

@ramzankadyrov6035

Жыл бұрын

Exactly. Father of 2 girls and 2 boys here and I would slump an entire building too to save them.

@raven_in_disguise1649

6 ай бұрын

Exactly I am not even a parent myself but currently I am raising 3 of my siblings that I knew and raised since birth, I am their guardian and hist one thought of them being in danger or be put in the situation where Ellie was put just makes me turn mama bear mode and forget all the morals and humanity be doomed. These siblings are a part of me and no ones taking that away, especially humans.

I try to put myself in Joel’s shoes. If I’m Joel and that’s my daughter that Marlene approved the life taking surgery for without me at least getting to say goodbye or talk to her to see how she feels then yeah I’m doing exactly what Joel did. Not his biological daughter but yeah still doing what Joel did. Marlene should have at least let them see each other.

Joel was right in regards to actions in hospital. Not right in lying to Ellie.

@NotReallyAya.

Жыл бұрын

period, save me without my permission might fly but killing me without it is fucked up.

@ermacflai2391

Жыл бұрын

no. You people are missing the point of the show completely. There is no right or wrong, just people being selfish.

@ojasvaraj2529

Жыл бұрын

@@ermacflai2391 love is selfish? Sheesh. Wonder what a human without empathy would be? Yes it’s selfish. But I’d rather trust a selfish person capable of loving and protecting something, than a cold altruist capable of killing his child for the good of many.

@ermacflai2391

Жыл бұрын

@@ojasvaraj2529 of course love is selfish what are you talking about lmao. Are you a human? Every human on earth knows that love makes you selfish. If you really think that dooming humanity and killing dozens of people for someone you love isnt selfish, then you have a big moral problem, buddy. Think before you speak.

@aryanbhuta3382

Жыл бұрын

​@@ojasvaraj2529 Joel inflicted misery on millions of men, women, and children, because he couldn't bear to experience emotional pain himself. He condemned millions of fathers to lose their children, spouses to cannibalize each other, and absolute carnage, because he couldn't bear to let one person die. That's not noble. That's not right. And that's cowardice.

Trust is huge. When she finds out about his lie, that could be difficult to recover from. He should have said, "They were going to take your brain in the HOPE that some doctor's theory about a cure was right. It may not have worked. You aren't an adult yet, so you can't make that choice. So I did. And I killed everyone that was a threat including Marlene."

@leob3447

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, but, then we wouldn't have a part 2 :-) But you are right - that probably would have been the best thing to say to salvage the situation.

There is no cure so, at the very least, all he did was keep her from dying in vain. People go on and on about whether or not Joel did the right thing while ignoring the fact that this could've been avoided if Marlene had been honest with Ellie before putting her on that table.

Joel 100% did the right thing and no video essay dork on KZread will ever convince me otherwise. After 10 years my stance on this has never changed.

@raven_in_disguise1649

6 ай бұрын

I laughed at Dork cause it's so f*kin true, all those bozos are blind idiots and you are so right on!!! I'll stand by Joel till the day I die and it's not because "hes the main character" like some of those dorks say and argue and it's much more than that, MUCH deeper and not even that at all, something they'll get or understand sadly

I always go down thinking the best way to handle this is giving Ellie the choice herself but at the same time I'm like...it's so much weight to put on a child, no matter how mature or hardened she is, is it as fair to make her decide?

@gabrielordonez8011

Жыл бұрын

You would let your 15 year old kid choose between dying or not dying? Pls never be parent.

@RockneOliver

Жыл бұрын

It's not fair to lay that burden on a child - even one as mature as Ellie. Marlene was definitely in the wrong, in many ways.

@epiciddrwhodavid1

Жыл бұрын

She still should have the choice all the way she thought that her blood was the cure she made plans to be with Joel after it was done the for Joel they wanted him to just hand over a child to her death asking a man who 20 years ago lost his own child he wasn’t going to lose another to a what if cure

@kevinphanhvilay8552

Жыл бұрын

That's why Joel lied to her, he didn't want to put that her on.

@epiciddrwhodavid1

Жыл бұрын

@@kevinphanhvilay8552 joel didn’t lie to her because he also thought it was in the blood if he had known he wouldn’t have made plans to teach play the guitar he wouldn’t have got to close to her he he would not have taken her there in the first place

Somewhere in an alternate reality, Joel, Ellie and Marlene have a conversation. After intense deliberation, Ellie volunteers, no cure is found. A broken Joel walks off into the sunset and spends his life on an abandoned golf course.

@Cptkirk1315

Жыл бұрын

Oh nah, Joel would have killed himself if that happened

@raven_in_disguise1649

6 ай бұрын

Bruh I lost it at "Golf course" 🤣🤣😭🤣👌

I think it's a beautiful paradox: Marlene should have asked Ellie, but we only know that because we know Ellie, having watched her journey. However, if Marlene had come to know Ellie as the audience and Joel have (as a parent), would she have been able to sacrifice her? Or would she, like Joel and Anna, have decided to save Ellie?

I agree with almost everything you said, except one thing. I dont think the actions of Joel doomed humanity. Even when faced with their potential extinction, people still kill each other and divide themselves and will be doing that regardless of Joel's actions. Even if the Fireflies developed a cure, that's the not the cure humanity needs. The endless power struggle between the two factions is the real disease. Even if you make everyone immune to the cordyceps, what's the guarantee things will go back to normal? There is none. Nothing's stopping both factions to develop some sort of a fair society on the small territories they control, but they dont do that, all the do is fight to gain more power and more control. Both factions are incapable of restoring humanity. The whole plot of Last of Us is a false dichotomy, because we're led to believe there are only two options: Joel is right or Marlene is right, if you dont make a cure humanity won't survive or if you make a cure it will, and so on and so forth. Its a classic false dilemma fallacy.

@irena4545

Жыл бұрын

This comment totally deserves more upvotes. The global world has fallen apart, but we are supposed to believe that this one relatively small group, unable to contribute anything constructive to the survival of humanity, will magick up the cure. We have no idea how people are holding up elsewhere in the world, it's entirely possible that there are whole communities or even countries doing just fine, we only see things through the very limited lenses of our protagonists.

If I was in his shoes, I would have done what he did. I couldn’t even imagine losing my kid no matter the reason. Id do any to keep them alive. Anything. Like you said Paul, I doubt they could do a cure from just her. I just don’t hope Joel’s fate isn’t the way it is in the 2nd season. Want more seasons.

As a parent there was no other way! You couldn't sacrifice your child for anything!!!! No matter how many people it could have saved. Your parental, mind takes over and ask you want to do is protect your child. No matter the cost!!!

@xNAICOMx

Жыл бұрын

From an evolutionary point of view, it looks like life programmed this instinct (protect child so that it can later survives, lives and produce even more life) quite with a rare but major bug, once triggered it just deletes the hole program itself. Maybe it will be revised in the next update

I think Joel was right in saving Ellie . There was a huge if when it came to a vaccine that could be made ,that would work. He loved her as a daughter and didn’t want her to die. There was no guarantee that this vaccine would work or even made! Joel needed Ellie and Ellie needed Joel. They grew to love and trust each other as family. Something they both missed. They each filled in a part of the other that was desperately needed, which is a good thing! So yes, Joel did the right thing❤

Marlene was wrong. She should have explained to Ellie that it would kill her and let her decide. Because she didn’t…it left Joel no option. They were going to make the decision no matter what and likely wouldn’t allow them to wake her and ask permission.

@gabrielordonez8011

Жыл бұрын

No. Ellie doesn’t get to decide. She’s 15. You’re clearly not a parent. No parent would let their be sacrificed for the sake of humanity and no doctor would ever put that decision on a child.

@TheFierywaters

Жыл бұрын

​​@@gabrielordonez8011 except that the age laws would apply on our society, not in a post apocalyptic one like theirs. But I agree with you.

@chatter4427

Жыл бұрын

@@gabrielordonez8011 then who should decide? The doctor? the woman she was handed to by her mother and took care of her for years? or the man that was hired to be with her for the last couple of months?

@laurenbettley2273

Жыл бұрын

​@@chatter4427Actually Marlene never took care of Ellie while she was growing up. She was handed to a FEDRA orphanage. She didn't even want to take her in the first place. And Joel was with Ellie for way more then a couple of months. Probably close to a year.

I don't have kids, and I stand with Joel.

@aryanbhuta3382

Жыл бұрын

Joel inflicted misery on millions of men, women, and children, because he couldn't bear to experience emotional pain himself. He condemned millions of fathers to lose their children, spouses to cannibalize each other, and absolute carnage, because he couldn't bear to let one person die. That's not noble. That's not right. And that's cowardice.

@CheesecattleMacklesbee

Жыл бұрын

​@@aryanbhuta3382 and humanity killed his daughter, not zombies. And as a result he became one of the most powerful men in a post apocalyptic world able to take back what he believes is his by force. Thats not cowardice, cowardice was him pushing Ellie away out fear. Cowardice is giving into the majority when you dont believe in what they are saying. Killing them all and taking your agency back is the opposite of cowardice.

@lustrazor44

Жыл бұрын

@@aryanbhuta3382 why are you acting like this was going to work? They clearly state it’s a maybe. You gonna let someone you live die on a maybe? You honestly think a shitty little terrorist group with one doctor in a barely functioning hospital with barely working equipment is capable of mass distributing a vaccine to millions when they couldn’t get a little girl across country?

1, Ellie's mom was immune as well but she didn't know. 2, There aren't enough infected fight scenes in the series.

@dgmilloway

Жыл бұрын

1. I'm not sure that was the case. My impression was it was the result of still being tied to the umbilical when bitten. But it's certainly a possibility. 2. I sympathize, but looking at the episodes, I can't find a single one that would be made better by adding a zombie fight scene

@Ndstars1

Жыл бұрын

1. Not immune. You can see the tendrils growing around the bite and she was starting to lose muscle control when Marlene found here.

What bugs me, and I don't see a lot of people pointing it out, is that Ellie can't even decide for herself yet, because she is a child! At least wait till she is 18 to EVEN ASK HER if she wants to sacrifice herself, but as a 14/15 year old, even if she chooses to give her life, she CAN'T, she is too young to make that decision! I think Joel, having taken completely the father role now, did what any parent would do: Protect your child, whether the child likes it or not. So I don't even see it as a gray area, he just did the ONLY thing he could do as the father of a teenager!

@BigSisterNeko

Жыл бұрын

You're right. Ellie's too young to make such a huge decision (which applies to all of things in today's modern issues), hence the parent has the final say and no one else.

you need to remember he was a father once. after the pain of losing his daughter he lost his humanity. Ellie helped him to find it again and he came to see her as a second daughter. the prospect of losing her would have pushed him over the edge, you really can't blame him for doing what he did

@aryanbhuta3382

Жыл бұрын

Joel inflicted misery on millions of men, women, and children, because he couldn't bear to experience emotional pain himself. He condemned millions of fathers to lose their children, spouses to cannibalize each other, and absolute carnage, because he couldn't bear to let one person die. That's not noble. That's not right. And that's cowardice.

@akienanaskidjfjr

Жыл бұрын

@@aryanbhuta3382 Funny how you would be willing to sacrifice your own flesh and blood for a chance of something good happening. And yet you call Joel a coward. The irony.

@richardbarton5910

Жыл бұрын

​@@aryanbhuta3382 coward ah what a joke a parent choose there kid over millions of people is not cowardly its called being a parent.

@raven_in_disguise1649

6 ай бұрын

Exactly! And people have the audacity to say that is Joel selfish!?! Bruh blind idiots

Also bear in mind that just because there’s a chance they could find a cure in the cordyceps in Ellie, there’s no certainty. They might kill her and gain nothing.

@themanofshadows

Жыл бұрын

Exactly.

Great coverage on the entire series thanks so much always looked forward to watching your videos after the episodes at work

6:02 on this we agree; Ellie’s pause between Joel’s swearing to the lie and her “Okay” is what she was thinking through and settling for the best of both.

Like all trolley problems, it's a false dichotomy. Especially when you consider neither of them gave Ellie a *choice* to die for humanity. At the same time, she's also too young to be able to make that decision. Even if she decided to knowingly do it, she should *not be allowed.* I know that sounds bizarre, but she's just a kid. In this sense, Joel is *more right*. But there was a better way. Rather, there were a bunch of potentially better ways. She deserved a full life--and they could have given that to her in Jackson, waiting until she was ready to go *as an adult years later*, and then they could have let her give her life. In the meantime, they could search for a surviving brain surgeon to make sure they couldn't possibly pull enough of the mutated cordyceps out of her brain without killing her! Or hey, maybe check to see if, if she ever has a kid, they are also immune, and then use the stem cells from the umbilical cord (or however that works). There is always a third option. Even continuing to work towards a third option *is itself* a third option. The problem is that people get so wrapped up in fear that they start enforcing their side, thinking that it's the "only way to prevent the worse outcome" of their opponent. They don't spend their energy finding a third (or fourth or fifth) option, they just waste it all on fighting that the first or second option in the hopes that it will never happen. It's like the two-party system in America; there are so many better options, but voting for them is viewed as horrific, "a vote for the worse side". "But what's the worth of one life with respect to the whole world? Countless will suffer while we wait for her to be ready!" When we start counting lives as whole numbers, even equal ones, and not as separate infinities, we all lose. We don't get to choose to sacrifice someone for the "good of humanity". That's their job, as a consenting adult, to decide. (To make this a personal exercise for you: Do you know how many lives you would save if you donated all of your organs to people who need them, right now? At least eight lives. What's one person in comparison to eight? Is their suffering on your hands if you decide against giving up your vital organs?)

It's honestly not a hard choice. You don't take the child's life. I mean you can't even guarantee killing her will result in a cure. I recall hearing this similar scenario in a Twilight Zone episode or an Outer Limits episode.

The killing part was a true rage of a father

Worse for this choice, there’s no guarantee that killing Ellie would have provided a cure. She was the best “chance.” Imagine if Joel allowed them to sacrifice Ellie and then there was no cure.

I’m not a father and I’ve never been a parent. But I feel like in his position I would do the same thing. I understand both him and Ellie perspective. But I feel mankind had numerous chances. Jerry chose his fate.

I absolutely understand and was rooting for Joel. After everything they had been through together, and Joel had just opened his heart up again for her. It would have killed him if she died. When you love someone you would kill the whole world just to save them, and that’s exactly what he did.

The most important point is that surgery shouldn't have been taking place! There are so many other steps to be done; testing her blood, her cells, and determining what steps need to be done before just cutting open Ellie and killing her. In addition, I doubt that they even have the ability or equipment to actually develop a cure. So yes, Joel was correct in saving Ellie.

I lost a child in August 2020, he was terminal, unfortunately. So we kind of expected it, but I am definitely more of a papa bear with my other three children as I can never go through that again. So I can definitely relate to Joel in that aspect.

One question I have related to the 'recap' segment before the show: We hear Joel mention that most infected don't live longer than a couple of months after infection. If that's true, and its been 20 years since Breakout Day, then shouldn't the majority of the infected be dead now? In other words, no hordes of infected, just one of the occasional 10 percent that survived being infected.

In a chaotic and collapsed world, right or wrong would not be an easy answer; you just have to bear with every single choice you've made, knowing someday you'll have to pay for them.

Love this commentary, thank you

You nailed it! Cheers

Marlene had poor judgement of character since she never would've thought that Joel would ever get attached to another person ever again. The Joel she meets in the Boston QZ is not the same person she meets again in Salt Lake City. Yes the old Joel would've given up on Ellie in a heartbeat & that is who Marlene thought she was dealing with. Unfortunately for her & the rest of the Fireflies, this Joel would do what any parent would do to protect their 'child'. Joel went to the extremes to do just that.

Thank you for your reactions to this story. It's pretty simple Ellie wasn't given a choice. They were going to kill her always for others benefit. Standard medical situation ethics question they have been using since after WWII and the concentration camps and medical experiments carried out on prisoners there also without consent. Joel is ethically correct and nobody knows if killing Ellie for this experiment would even work as a cure for others.

Good channel you got going on here. Seconded series will most definitely 🤞 be the period of time between 1&2 (plus some flashbacks) which will provide more Pedro time and flesh out the story to make TLOU2 more relatable. Of course, could follow suit and run GOT risks but there is an easy backstory opportunity which would be dumb to overlook given Druckman is on board…

my parents always said to us kids when we were younger whenever we complained about something or talking being how grownups have it better and such, they always said one thing to us, when you become a parent, you will know and by that they meant that as a parent we have to make sacrifices all the time and the choices we have to make about everything isn't as cut and dry as kids always think it is, so, in the case of joel rescuing ellie from being cut open for this cure, my child or my adoptive child, i will give my life for them if it comes down to it. i will fight for them or die trying.

Here are a few question for all Pedro as The Mandalorian did the exact same thing in rescuing Grogu (Baby Yoda at the time) in Series 1. The only difference here is that Grogu was held by the ‘Evil Empire’ and Mando (Pedro) killed a lot of Storm Troopers too (like we have seen many people do countless times before - plus Storm Troopers with armour seem more like robots than humans) There was literally zero outcry over this and it is pretty much the exact same scenario - rescued a child, took said child on an adventure to be dropped off at the end, people at the end wanted to do a medical experiment on the child. So my first question - none of actually know if the Firefly’s are good, bad or indifferent or what their motivations are, so we? (maybe they are not the Empire, but killing a child to see if they ‘might’ be able to do something is pretty bad) Also the Doctor at the end (who is important) didn’t want to let her leave - why did he think he knew best too?

Morally he wasn’t wrong and was selfish… but I feel if they would have let them say their goodbyes he would have just walked away heartbroken 💔

@P4boot

Жыл бұрын

Joel will never leave Ellie to die. Not in a million lifetimes. Not even if a cure was guaranteed. That’s his baby girl.

@akram9744

Жыл бұрын

But if she made the decision and had the opportunity to talk it through with Joel, I think he would accept her decision

Man this was a great video. 👏🏽

If the table turned and your love one is at the same situation as Ellie, I would also do the same decision so yah I understand what Joel is going through.

Love the video. I think for me it all boils down to one thing. It is not 100% sure to work not even 50% sure to work. It might work, the Fireflies think it will work. If they said "Yes, it works. We know it works but Ellie has to die." Then Joel is in the wrong but I understand him. As it sits with me the Fireflies hope it works and is willing to kill Ellie for a chance. Then I feel Joel understands that Ellie is dying for nothing and has to save her. Stay safe and warm.

Mind blowing, thanks for that.

Brilliant video, nice perspective from a real father, made me rethink my point of view that was stuck since the first time I've played 8 years ago. Nicely done, you chump

Also, Joel might of been more cooperative if they consulted Ellie on the ordeal. Yea Ellie says she would of died for the cause, but it’s easier said than done. Im a Marine, and I would believe I would fall on the grenade to protect my Marine Corps brothers, but I can’t know for sure until I’m in that exact situation

It was a grey area but Joel’s reasoning was wrong but all in all was correct because they wasn’t 100% sure it would work and they don’t have the capability of mass production and distribution IF they made the cure. I wish Joel would’ve just told Ellie the truth

@benjamingirard1984

Жыл бұрын

''I wish Joel would’ve just told Ellie the truth'' I understand why you wished that, but from a parent perspective, Joel will do anything to protect his child and that means lying too. Every parent in the world lie to their kid to preserve their innocence, to keep them at harms way and are not wrong to do so because it's self preservation. Ellie's still young in part 1 so telling her the truth could f up her mind real bad and Joel, in his own way I guess, just wanted to avoid that as much as possible because that would be probably to much for her (for now) to digest. That's how I always seen that scene.

@hpyzig6362

Жыл бұрын

I don’t see it as Joel trying to protect Ellie’s innocence. He found joy and hope again in Ellie and he’s doesn’t want to ruin it with a potential adverse reaction to what he did.

@benjamingirard1984

Жыл бұрын

@@hpyzig6362 Oh there's also definitely that for sure, I won't argue. But one doesn't take away the other. Joel sees her like his little girl so as a parent, the fact that he lies to her makes total sense too. He's gonna hide the awful things he's done and make up a story so she feels better and move on.

@chatter4427

Жыл бұрын

The problem is joel didn't care to ask about any of those things, he would've done it either way

Excellent summary!

ND: The original ending that for a long time we discussed is Ellie would believe the lie and you’d see them walking off to Tommy’s town and the camera would track up and you’d feel like, they’re going to be ok. It was about a week before we shot that scene and we thought, this isn’t honest, this doesn’t feel right, Ellie would know, I don’t buy it, we have to change this. This is an Ashley thing but no matter what the acting direction is, she’s going to nod her head and be like, ‘OK… OK’. And throughout shooting, a lot of her improvisation for Ellie involved saying, ‘ok’. And I thought, you have to end on that. Whatever it is Joel tells her, she has to just be like, ‘ok’. So Ashley, when you’d say that to Neil, you weren’t being glib, it really was a matter of trusting his direction. Is that the same feeling you wanted Ellie to communicate to Joel? AJ: That’s how I was playing it. Obviously she has a bullshit detector, she clearly knows he’s lying, but she says, alright, let’s see where this goes. ND: And it’s also like, how do you approach that? Would she start asking very detailed questions? Why would they release me before I woke up? Why wouldn’t I talk to someone before leaving? Was Marlene there? No, she would just ask the one obvious question: are you lying?

I think it comes down to Marlene not letting them say goodbye to eachother. The rest is reactionary, and I don't think you can blame someone for how they react under extremely stressful circumstances. Just my opinion though.

@rpavangchhia8953

Жыл бұрын

So youll also support Alicent in House of the dragon? Because it is the same situation.

@chatter4427

Жыл бұрын

@@rpavangchhia8953 can you explain a little

@rpavangchhia8953

Жыл бұрын

@@chatter4427 joel is murdering for his child, Alicent is murdering for her children. Its the same thing.

@scarlettgrey1529

Жыл бұрын

@@rpavangchhia8953 difference is, ellie will actually be killed by the fireflies, Alicents kids wouldn't have been killed Rhaenrya if Alicent hadn't done everything she does

@lustrazor44

Жыл бұрын

@@rpavangchhia8953 it’s not the same thing. Joel’s saving someone who is currently being murdered. Allicent is rigging a system to put her children at the top of the political system and murdering others because she thinks Rhaenyra will kill them despite having no real reason, other than Otto, to believe so. They’re not comparable.

I think there will be another part of this story for Ellie. I don't think after part 2, her story is over after her last fight with Abby... maybe just that chapter of her life but as other characters of the show mentioned, she is smart and a leader... I think she will become more important than her immunity and maybe there is still a possibility of a cure when she feels it is her time.

@Cptkirk1315

Жыл бұрын

We as the fanbase need her to go back and kill Abby, she already lost everything even tho she spared her…

Well thought out synopsis Paul - of course Joel would make this choice... I agree with you about the lack of an altruistic nature with the Fireflies, anotherwords they would skew more towards Kathlene than Marlene. I'm always impressed with your attention to detail. Nice Kim K. reference at 11:44 lol...

I would do whatever it’s takes to protect my daughter .. I agree with Joel But I understand that people who don’t have children would disagree because they don’t know that feeling of having a child, that pure unconditional love and that you would do anything, give anything even your own life if it came too, to protect them

I honestly would have done the same thing as Joel. I would do anything to protect the people I love. Is it wrong to destroy the world's chance a a cure? Yes. At the same time, the Fireflies were going to kill a child the second she came to them. Ellie did NOT get a choice. They got her and their thought was kill her so we can get a cure that may or may not have even worked. Their was never a chance for Joel and Marlene to ask Ellie if SHE wanted to go through with it. This is why I love this series, their is no right or wrong, just the choices we make and the consequences that come from those choices.

@P4boot

Жыл бұрын

Their is definitely a wrong. What type of medical personnel would kill the only immune person they have to make a vaccine? With or without consent? Even if they made a vaccine how they gonna make more and be able to get the crappy world back to normal? The fireflies are just a bunch of asshole thugs. There was no chance in hell their vaccine was gonna be successful

@MisterCaution

Жыл бұрын

I never saw any extreme ambiguity in Joel’s decision. The FFs were going to kill Ellie without her consent and without assurance of success. Moreover, the show makes the decision even less consequential by showing how to “make” an immune baby. The FFs would have for sure experimented on pregnant women to make more Ellies.

He was wrong. He made humanity lost the only hope because of personal feelings for Ellie. At the end of the day is an egoist decision… In special situations sacrifices has to be made

@munkayttaja6913

Жыл бұрын

There's no gurantee the vaccine would work also they never asked Ellie if she wanted to die for it, on top of that it's more likely that there's more like Ellie than that Ellie is the only one

@erickniebla4147

Жыл бұрын

Literally how? The fireflies wouldn’t have been able to manufacture a cure on a wide scale and I doubt they would use the cure to help out people.

@AdmiralTiberius

Жыл бұрын

Would you sacrifice your child ? ..

@ResevoirGod

Жыл бұрын

@@erickniebla4147 wrong

@FutureMartian97

Жыл бұрын

@@erickniebla4147 Neil confirmed they would've successfully made a cure

Omg.. “but there’s a big butt.. “ and Kim K flashes on the screen.. seriously laughed out loud!!!😂

Awesome video

What Joel did was justified. It isn't about right or wrong cuz anybody with a brain should know how horrible the thing he did is. But it's smtg a parent would do for their child. Ellie in Joel's pov was in danger & he did what needed to be done.

Wife and I were talking about this last night and had differing opinions. I was of the mind of the greater good, sacrifice the one to save the many. She was of the mind that every life matters, and to Joel, Ellie's life was worth saving more than people he didn't know. After that, she asked: Wife: "What if I was Ellie and you needed to kill me to get the cure, would you sacrifice me?" Me: "Yes." Wife with shocked Pikachu face.

@lovinlorne

Жыл бұрын

You told her that? Seriously? You’re brave. I’d be on my way to pick up the divorce papers. LOL

@MrSeriousGuy

Жыл бұрын

Brave man but I agree with you

@gabrielordonez8011

Жыл бұрын

Sorry but I have to seriously question your marriage smh. I’m also married and I have 2 kids and not for a second I would consider the killing of my wife or my kids for humanity’s sake. I have a duty to protect my family above all.

@jcaashby3

Жыл бұрын

In the world of LAST OF US....I would not sacrifice my wife or kids to save a bunch of murderers etc lol. Also a lot of people were living a-ok with little to no threats (at least it seemed that way on the show)

@ScytheNoire

Жыл бұрын

@@MrSeriousGuy At least the guy with the Spock avatar understand the logic. To quote Spock from The Wrath of Khan: “Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.”

Paul, it's so good to hear your voice!! Did you ditch Jared? He was really dragging this channel down.

For me, a group who is ready to kill a kid, particularly without his consent, to save other, will always be the villain. No one is entitled to get a cure.

@chatter4427

Жыл бұрын

like when joel killed the kid when they were ambushed

I like how everyone doesn’t even consider the possibility that the cure might not work and Ellie could die for nothing. The real question is: is it better to die for nothing or live for nothing?

@richystyles

Жыл бұрын

That's an interesting point. Although, perhaps another way of looking at it is that maybe by keeping Ellie alive, it gives them a chance to see if they can find another doctor/organisation later on that might be able to do a better job of finding a cure without gambling with her life. From that perspective, it's no longer do you risk dying for nothing or living for nothing. Instead the question becomes something like do you risk dying for nothing now or do you stick around in hopes of finding something more guaranteed in the future? Because if the fireflies failed with the approach they were taking, then humanity ends up doomed anyways. So maybe the smarter choice is to keep young Ellie alive and go looking for a better solution for a cure rather than gambling her life away with such a lethal and unproven approach?

@jackk9723

Жыл бұрын

@@richystyles I'd find it very difficult to trust the instincts or knowledge of medical people who seemingly easily throwing away the first principle of medical ethics "first do no harm".