I feel exactly the same as Alex, (albeit from a Muslim perspective.) I have spent most of my life searching for God. I still hold out hope a God exists. But I cannot escape the conclusion that if a God exists, he bears no relation to a God whose presence is inescapably evident to all - as both Islam and Christianity claim.

@llmlm9502

2 жыл бұрын

Read this in your voice. Hope you would continue making videos, they have meant so much to so many of us.

@dualnon6643

2 жыл бұрын

You are seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, thinking right now. That is all that your experience is made up of. You can’t step outside of the senses to percieve reality because reality is contained inside the sense doors. So…. If god is all knowing, ask yourself what is known if not through consciousness itself? Pure direct knowing. If god is all present, ask yourself what is present if not through the knowing of it? What has always been here? What aspect of your experience is inescapable? Seeing Hearing Tasting Touching Smelling Thinking This is the all-knowing of god. That is why god is inescapably evident to all. The problem is we are looking for something WITHIN the sensory experience, instead of looking at the formless indescribable thing that all of this experience is contained within.

@mirandamay301

2 жыл бұрын

@@dualnon6643 this is soooo over my head, but fascinating. I think you are affirming for me that God- I accept that there is a God...would be out of our realm of understanding...if there is a God. I need to understand things like a 5-year-old. This is how I make sense of this...the engine of the car will never understand how the car was put together or reproduce a car...it's impossible. We are merely a part or speck of this amazing universe. And our few years here is a microscopic dot on hopefully an eternal line. Someone or something outside of it is able to fathom all of this...maybe it's creator.

@dualnon6643

2 жыл бұрын

@@mirandamay301 yes exactly. We can’t understand, atleast not through knowledge and thought.. because knowledge and thought is an object of sensation INSIDE the bounds of sensory experience. But ultimately what we are IS sensation, so we kinda can know it by being it. But that’s much different than mental knowing and understanding.

@thetwelfthdoctor9892

Жыл бұрын

@@dualnon6643 but there is a fallacy. If God is almighty and wish to be known, he can simply show himself or make it so that we can percieve what can not be percieved.

This might be the most committed and effective ten minutes on the topic I will ever see. Thank you, Alex.

If there were a god, I would have no problem believing that. If it wanted a relationship, I’d be fine with that. But I would never worship it. I would not presume that it wanted such a piteous thing, and if it did, I would want to know why.

@a.i.l1074

2 жыл бұрын

Have you ever been obsessed with...a person, a fandom, a drug, a political or philosophical position, sex, pride, wrath, money, an upcoming holiday? If there is a God, He should be rejoiced about and obsessed over more than any of those things.

@vsaucyboi7214

2 жыл бұрын

The God gave you everything you are grateful for. Being grateful to God is only natural aka worship.

@Anglomachian

2 жыл бұрын

@@vsaucyboi7214 Citation needed.

@Anglomachian

2 жыл бұрын

@@a.i.l1074 No, I can't say that I have. I don't have an addicting personality. Also that sounds kind of sad. Obsessing over things in general has always sounded unhealthy to me.

@CHAZER-sp5cm

2 жыл бұрын

@@Anglomachian edgy

Trying to seek God has only brought me with at most strong feelings or ambiguous events, and an omniscient God knows these aren’t enough evidence to convince me of his existence. If he exists, why would he curse us with this skepticism and hide in the ambiguity? The religious people I’ve talked to about this usually say something like, “just keep trying”, “walk with faith”, “you’re too smart for your own good”, but this line of reasoning pits my word against their God. They take the escape hatch and assume I haven’t truly looked, or I’m not being patient enough, I’m not listening with an open heart, etc. etc. It couldn’t be that God is actually silent to us…

@brookemoore8369

2 жыл бұрын

This is my biggest issue with God. I’m not sure why he wouldn’t make himself more evident to us…. An example would be the god in the avatar movies. One that quietly reveals itself for people to visually see and view the signs of a greater picture.” The only reasonable explanation I can come up with is that the existence of God is all around us, we just aren’t in tune with Him enough to see it anymore the more materialistic we’ve become over the years. Also, maybe God working through the goodness of people is proof… we hold the keys of divinity in a sense. People have recently discovered we can also shape shift reality in a sense via “manifestation….” Maybe the universe is designed in a way so that we have all the tools necessary if we tapped into them properly.

@japexican007

2 жыл бұрын

Those that are whole need not a physician, God came to call sinners to repentance

@GlennYarwood

2 жыл бұрын

‘You’re too smart’ so I have to be dumb to believe 😵‍💫

@GlennYarwood

2 жыл бұрын

@@nickelchlorine2753 My mother is a very devout Christian and I was brought up in Christian schools. I’m just saying that by them saying ‘you’re too smart’ then it implies that they are just thick enough to actually believe 😅

@thomasthompson6378

2 жыл бұрын

Perhaps, Andrew, a possible solution for you is to stop looking for God, for it might reasonably be argued that, if God exists at all, God is so immensely beyond our ken as to be, in some sense, unapproachable. Still, if you leave yourself open to the idea, then perhaps he, she, or it, will find you. Surely, an omnipotent God can achieve that miracle.

Preach it brother. The silence of gods is deafening.

@Bi0Dr01d

2 жыл бұрын

But the Bible also talks about this as well and answers these questions. Sometimes we are only giving our interpretations of what we perceive is absence of God, but those are only interpretations, and those interpretations are often based more so on our opinions rather than what the Bible says, and that could potentially lead to strawman of the faith, and we want to have as much information about the faith as possible in order to most accurately evaluate a situation. This is one of those types of topics that would require looking at the Bible as a whole rather than isolating a few scriptures here and there.

@buzzmann3971

2 жыл бұрын

@@Bi0Dr01d not sometimes but always. We are always only giving our interpretation of what it says in the bible. Wether as a whole or in isolation. The only information about faith you need is that it's belief without evidence. Try harder.

@Bi0Dr01d

2 жыл бұрын

@@buzzmann3971 Then I can interpret your conclusion to mean "God exists". If you object and argue for a specific interpretation rather than anyone making their own subjective interpretation, then you're supporting my point that there could be an alternative conclusion to your conclusion which is correct, and this could also imply that the right interpretation could be known. We're not always giving our own interpretation. It is sometimes, because it's possible to actually have a knowledge in certain areas of scripture or additional information from scripture that adds more context. By the way, we're not opponents, so I would appreciate you not treating me like one. So please no comments like "try harder" and none of that, and none of these "snappy/witty comebacks" as if this is some type of game. That's immature. You don't just pick fights with people for no reason. Anyway, I'm trying to say that it's possible for a person to truly know what the Bible means rather than just giving an opinion. You're implying that it's impossible for a person to know it, but if it is possible and people do indeed know at times, then "sometimes" is correct. Actually, it would seem that you're arguing for two different positions at the same time. There's somewhat of a contradictory nature by trying to make a truth claim in your initial post as if it is obvious that this is the conclusion, but then later on in your response to me you're saying that we are all just giving our own opinions in which case would imply that there are other alternative possibilities to your initial post and that the conclusion you chose isn't so absolute as you're trying to make it appear, and that would also imply that your conclusion from the initial post is simply an arbitrary or subjective conclusion among alternative conclusions you could have chosen but simply willingly chose this particular conclusion among many, and I don't see what the difference is between freely choosing that and any other religious position anyone else would hold toward an alternative conclusion. I'm not here to try to point fingers, I'm just asking you to simply consider that there might be an answer, and if the Bible does answer your objection, then this could result in you finding God, because the objection is connected to the separation between God and man in which you can find out how to find him. You'd have all the evidence you could want at that point. *(Rhetorical question not meant to be answered but reflected on)* Do you want to conclude that God doesn't exist so that you don't have to find him? Or Do you want to find God?

@buzzmann3971

2 жыл бұрын

@@Bi0Dr01d as per your last paragraph. Neither. You have the god claim. I don't want to "find" a lot of things. You assume a lot. However I'm really interested in how you came to believe in Yahweh?

@Bi0Dr01d

2 жыл бұрын

@@buzzmann3971 But you didn't acknowledge that we should try to incorporate as much information as possible to give a fair evaluation. If I can interpret anything you're saying however I want and you disagree with me interpreting it however I want, then you're implying that there's a true interpretation, which follows that there can be a true interpretation of the Bible even though it's also true that many people give their own interpretations, but you didn't acknowledge this. Also, you're saying that you're not searching for God, but if you're not searching for God, then what is my incentive to give answers that are very personal to my life to one who isn't interested in searching for God in which would seem to imply that you might make light of my personal life? How are you interested in how I found God and yet not interested in finding God, and what would be my incentive if you don't have an interest in finding him, regardless of who's making the claim?

As an Atheist and former Christian I appreciate the depth and detail Alex went through in order to see if the Christian God is real. Thank you for truly being open to what Christianity has to say and offer. It's so rare to see someone that is able to truly put their bias away and search for the truth. The results of his efforts speak volumes to anyone seeking the truth.

@theunclejesusshow8260

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly 💯, I WAS an 8th day Independent Fundamental Baptist Evangelism Explosion Door Knockin Soul Winning Christian for 40plus years and Escaped the Candy Coated Blood Guilt Cult about 10years ago. I learned the hard way too

@llaauuddrruupp

2 жыл бұрын

All well and good, except one doesn't actually need to put bias away to search for truth. Bias is simply having prior beliefs about likelihoods, and that is nearly impossible to not have. Being biased, in other words, is not the same as being close-minded.

@JM-us3fr

2 жыл бұрын

I think putting your biases aside and searching for the truth isn’t the difficulty here. What Alex has done is above and beyond the call to action; far beyond what the vast majority of even theists do.

@Bi0Dr01d

2 жыл бұрын

But I have found God and many people I know have as well. I've had a different set of results in my life than Alex has. I'm not saying this to toot my own horn or to say I'm better than anyone because I found God and someone else may not have, I'm only saying that there is perhaps something Alex still isn't understanding about the Bible in which leads to the results of not finding him. As a result of finding God, what I'm saying is not an opinion, God can be found. Just as you are happy to see how open Alex O'Connor is in his pursuit of God, I also would appreciate the same from others, to be open to the idea that I really have found God without trying to diminish my own experiences, because I need people to take what I'm saying seriously so that they can truly listen to what I would have to say about it rather than writing it off.

@JM-us3fr

2 жыл бұрын

@@Bi0Dr01d Well I can't speak for other atheists who may write you off, but I will say that after seeing a myriad of arguments for God's existence, the Bible's validity, or the historicity of Jesus, I still find myself unconvinced, and so too does Alex. Your experiences still don't answer Alex's question: what more should he do? Whatever you answer, I would follow up with: What if he does that and is still unconvinced? What does he have to do to convince you that he is a genuine non-resistant non-believer? If you want a better understanding of where I and many atheists are coming from, reread your comment, but replace the word "God" with "aliens" and "the Bible" with "UFO theories." Sure there was a time when I believed in some UFO theories, but I've grown out of them.

I remember asking my mom, “If there is a god and he created me, why did he make my brain to not believe in him”. Haha she raised me to believe in whatever I decided to believe in

@Ragnar-Lothbrok967

Ай бұрын

Sounds like your mom is to blame then….she was supposed to brainwash you.😞

No signs of God in my garden shed so far. OK, it is a bit cluttered, but surely he could squeeze in there ?

@robertsticek8382

2 жыл бұрын

😒

When he said can your Bible and turn to psalm, I felt like I was in church

The only logical conclusion I arrive to when I contend with my Christian brothers and sisters is that it's my fault. Basically, there's something that they do that I am not. It's incredibly lonely to hear that from people who otherwise love you dearly.

@aaronsmith5904

5 ай бұрын

As a Christian I don’t think it is your fault. There are many reasons, possibly it could be someone’s fault, it could also be instead some divine providence of God, that is yet to be revealed. We don’t see what is going on in the background. People in the bible like Job have felt far from God. Not understanding why they are under torment or sickness. God has a plan more glorious and good than could ever be imagined. It could be that there is a piece of evidence that God wants you to see, but he is preparing your heart to receive it. Since all humans aren’t perfect in their intellectual abilities, and even if we are we have emotions and biases. Even unknown ones. We don’t know what we don’t know. I am not accusing you of anything, merely giving you a variety of options other then a malicious “it’s your fault” which I think is a mean thing to say especially when there are many atheists that are intellectually honest.

I do have to say, I'm glad you are a non-resistant non-believer if only because it's easier for me to choose not to subject myself to that level of dedication to find an answer.

The funny thing is that he is making a living out of something he believes doesn't exist. 😂

I can relate so well. I was a devout Catholic the past 3 years and wish God would convince me. Can’t structure my life around a God who ignores me.

@ciararespect4296

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly and all they showed when I was younger was the parable of doubting Thomas. A cop out basically

Loved the speech!

Believing in god is a emotional thing. Arguing is almost useless. I’m an atheist for about 5years and I spent decades of my life “truly” believing and serving god. I wake up because of emotional disappointments, and looking back I can say that I knew that god didn’t exist since 15 years old. So I guess the best bullet to help someone to wake up is acknowledging him the injuries that religion can cause.

Citing that AXP pole as an example of resistant non-belief strikes me as dishonest. The question would have to be “if you had evidence god existed, would you believe” in order to be used this way. The question of worship has a lot to do with morality and the character of this supposed god.

Dude, that was so well spoken. I think it's safe to say you went above and beyond to find God and came up with nothing. I was raised Catholic as well and I left the faith a while ago. Watching atheist KZread channels like yours played a big part in questioning the validity of the Christianity and religion in general

@ciararespect4296

2 жыл бұрын

Same I was on the altar in the church. I have wistful memories but no faith

I find it pretty escapable really. Finding it is the real challenge.

Masterful, work

4:10 “When I was a few months out of being a teenager, I said that even if I found Christianity to be true, I wouldn’t want to worship the God that it promotes. I now since then have realized how irrational and self-defeating this assertion is.” Come on Alex, there is nothing irrational and self-defeating about not wanting/being interested in kissing a God’s ass.

@Smitywerban

2 жыл бұрын

Jup exactly. Especially for abrahamoc god concepts. I would love for Alex to explain how that is self defeating...

@Nemo12417

2 жыл бұрын

It depends. No sane person should WANT to worship the deity put forth by fundamentalists, but if it actually existed, what choice would you have? If a mugger points a gun at you, even self defense experts say its best to just give him your wallet. Philosophical arguments about why mugging is bad tend to be bad at deflecting bullets. I assume they are about as effective against hellfire.

@Smitywerban

2 жыл бұрын

@@Nemo12417 what you describe is pretending to worship imo. Is forced worship really worship?

@deathofallthingspotato9919

2 жыл бұрын

Listen to his wording after that. He isn't looking to worship the Christian god as described in the bible, he is looking to worship the Christian god as promoted by Christians - unconditionally loving, giving life after death, and deserving of worship. I would like to worship a being which is deserving of worship, I just can't imagine any being ever being as such (personally worship is a super kiss-ass word, so yeah). But I would like such a being to exist - tolerating the mild cosmic horror of existing solely due to the love of a super being, which is becoming more of a concern the more I think about it. The issue is that I cannot see such a being existing in this universe, at least not with the amount of power ascribed to it.

@jerrythecanary96

2 жыл бұрын

@@Nemo12417 It would make sense to pick kissing a God’s ass over hellfire, any sane person would. But is God content with fake worship or does he want genuine worship? I would never worship a god sincerely, would I be able to “trick” god with fake worship to avoid hellfire? If he wants genuine worship and we can’t trick him, then it’s pointless!

If you're looking for God in the propositional way of knowing, you'll never find anything but words and logic or lack of. And i'm a non-theist.

When I first watched this video It did cause me to ask why, why can’t you find God. From what you say, it is clear that you have been searching for him. And then I can’t remember why, but I saw another psalm, which has almost the opposite sentiment. It has nearly the same sentiment as you except for a possible small difference. “Unto the end. The understanding of the sons of Korah. As the deer longs for fountains of water, so my soul longs for you, O God. My soul has thirsted for the strong living God. When will I draw close and appear before the face of God? My tears have been my bread, day and night. Meanwhile, it is said to me daily: "Where is your God?" These things I have remembered; and my soul within me, I have poured out. For I will cross into the place of the wonderful tabernacle, all the way to the house of God, with a voice of exultation and confession, the sound of feasting. Why are you sad, my soul? And why do you disquiet me? Hope in God, for I will still confess to him: the salvation of my countenance, and my God. My soul has been troubled within myself. Because of this, I will remember you from the land of the Jordan and from Hermon, from the little mountain. Abyss calls upon abyss, with the voice of your floodgate. All your heights and your waves have passed over me. In the daylight, the Lord has ordered his mercy; and in the night, a canticle to him. With me is a prayer to the God of my life. I will say to God, "You are my supporter. Why have you forgotten me? And why do I walk in mourning, while my adversary afflicts me?" While my bones are being broken, my enemies, who trouble me, have reproached me. Meanwhile, they say to me every single day, "Where is your God?" My soul, why are you saddened? And why do you disquiet me? Hope in God, for I will still confess to him: the salvation of my countenance and my God.” ‭‭Psalm‬ ‭41‬:‭1‬-‭12‬ ‭CPDV‬‬ “A Psalm of David. Judge me, O God, and discern my cause from that of a nation not holy; rescue me from a man unjust and deceitful. For you are God, my strength. Why have you rejected me? And why do I walk in sadness, while the adversary afflicts me? Send forth your light and your truth. They have guided me and led me, to your holy mountain and into your tabernacles. And I will enter, up to the altar of God, to God who enlivens my youthfulness. To you, O God, my God, I will confess upon a stringed instrument. Why are you sad, my soul? And why do you disquiet me? Hope in God, for I will still give praise to him: the salvation of my countenance and my God.” ‭‭Psalm‬ ‭42‬:‭1‬-‭5‬ ‭CPDV‬‬ And I thought, does the psalmist give an answer to the apparent hiddenness of God? The only thing he says to himself, rather then describing his feelings is this. “Why are you sad, my soul? And why do you disquiet me? Hope in God, for I will still give praise to him: the salvation of my countenance and my God.” Psalm 42(43):5 And this also repeats in quite similar fashion Psalm 41(42):6,12 3 times in these 2 psalms the questions and answers are repeated. I don’t know what to say except to read the psalm 42 and 43 (it might be 41 and 42 in some bibles, as the one I have quoted above.)

Alex has studied philosophy of religion more than I have. Although I'm still a Christian, I have doubts and I'm aware I need to learn so much. He seems like an honest guy. I hope I will stay on the path of searching and trying to figure out the truth about reality.

Psalm 138:6 Though the LORD is on high, He attends to the lowly; but the proud He knows from afar.

I was killed by "Until the sun... rose again if you'd like" and was promptly resurrected after 2 business days.

2:26 to be fair, there's a large distinction between (A) would I _believe_ in a god if it was proven to exist with sufficient evidence vs. (B) would I _worship_ that god. I'm not sure what criteria a thing or being would need in order to convince me to _worship_ it.

@luxeayt6694

2 жыл бұрын

I'd say if a god were responsible for removing all evil that currently exists, I would worship him.

@vsaucyboi7214

2 жыл бұрын

@@luxeayt6694 Evil is a consequence of human free will.

@vsaucyboi7214

2 жыл бұрын

Worship is an act of gratefulness towards the Creator. In the theistic perspective, God gave you every single thing you are grateful for. It is only normal to recognize it.

@suicune2001

2 жыл бұрын

The way I see it, even if I knew 100% a specific god existed I wouldn't worship it if it meant good people who don't worship it go to hell. So if someone was raised in another country and wasn't taught the teachings of that particular god but was a good person and still went to hell then screw that god for being so petty. Being a good person should be good enough.

@vsaucyboi7214

2 жыл бұрын

@@suicune2001 That's why in the theistic perspective, people who didn't get the full message of God's existence don't go to hell. As for people who are know the message but don't try to get in a relationship with God or insult religion, I wouldn't consider them ''good'' people.

Magnificent cliffhanger!! 🤣🤣

The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.Psalm 34:18

My highest respect for your love in truth and straightforwardness you present. You make your point so clear it kind of makes me nervous and blushing. "I want to believe". The more I want to believe, the less I believe as there is no answer. Until we lie to ourselves ofcourse

@vladtheemailer3223

2 жыл бұрын

Do you have evidence he is wrong?

@StenUustalu

2 жыл бұрын

@@vladtheemailer3223 Read it again. I'm not disagreeing with him

Damn, Alex. I just listened to 6:38 and I applaud you for all of the searching you've done. I've been on a search of my own to somehow prove the existence of this seemingly non-existent thing people call "God," and have also turned up nothing. As much as I want it. I suspect this feeling of "Well, maybe it's true, and I just haven't accepted the 'Truth' of it yet" will come back into me, but for right now at least, I'm more OK than I often am at believing that nothing of the sort exists. Thanks for all of the work that you do and for putting this online.

I'm deeply moved by your honesty. Everyone who still holds to the position that non-belief is a choice should watch this. Well, being a theist myself, I won't offer you a simple answer, because there isn't any. Our experiences are just too different. My advice would be: Go on living according to your convictions, whatever they are, because being dishonest to yourself wouldn't serve anybody, and keep on following the truth where it leads you. I can see you're open minded, so keep this open mind. You haven't arrived at the end yet.

How can I see you live Alex? I live in the UK, and I'd love to one day.

I was one of the 85% in the AXP poll but I think we may have interpreted it differently. I was thinking not of the promised all-loving god, but of the described p.o.s. genociding left and right. Now I am not sure. Is it the all-loving god? # No Then even if I were convinced of its existence, why would I worship it? Other than maybe self-preservation but would feigned worship actually be considered worship here? # Yes To be consistent, all of the suffering of the Bible and irl then would have to have been for a greater purpose, somehow reducing suffering over all of space and time. Of course, I know close to nothing about that but it still strikes me as insanely unlikely that that would have been the only and best solution. I can think of ways to improve the past and still arrive at our today thus so can it. But then again maybe today is not the target. Maybe, at some point in the future, every last little bit of past suffering will have been strictly necessary to create some great utopia. Then again, god is supposed to be omniscient and omnipotent. Doesn't that mean that he should be able to know and implement a perfect way that includes no suffering at all or just the minimally necessary amount (e.g. no rapes but toe-stubbing still hurts)? Maybe not. If you define omnipotence and omniscience the right way, precluding logical inconsistencies (like moving the unmovable rock), which is admittedly rather sensible to me, it could simply be the case that the current way is actually the best way in terms of minimizing suffering. I just find that extremely hard to believe and impossible to make claims of great certainty about it short of involving direct revelation which has its own problems. Still, if it were somehow the case that it is the all-loving god despite the alleged evidence to the contrary, then yes, I would agree with Alex. In general, why would I worship even in the latter case? Why would I worship someone who demands worship? That makes them unworthy of worship in my opinion. What justification could an all-loving god have to demand it? The only thing I can think of is that we could derive benefits from it. But wouldn't it be preferable to have people be out of church and doing good work? This argument runs into a brick wall in analogy to the Yes case.

@deathofallthingspotato9919

2 жыл бұрын

YES

@hendricklamar5061

2 жыл бұрын

Standing applause for you 👏 It's all about the way the question is asked and how everyone interpreted it. Any logical human would say yes, if the question is put together like it is intended : an open question to think about your own opinions and believes. Regardless of your own predispositions.

@deathofallthingspotato9919

2 жыл бұрын

@@hendricklamar5061 what do you mean by "any logical human would say yes". Yes to what? And to which question?

I kind of want to go look up Jonathan's reply, because that was just an absolute killer argument and I want to see how anyone could possibly rebut that. But if experience has taught me anything, I'd probably be disappointed in the rebuttal. I do just disagree on one part: if Christianity were true, it seems most rational to have a lot of doubts about worshipping God (depending on _what_ is true). If the all-loving all-knowing all-powerful god that modern Christianity preaches exists, then yeah, sure, I'd absolutely want to have a relationship with him. But if a god exists, given our world, and given the existence of hell, having them be tri-omni seems extremely implausible. Not to mention that the god of the Bible is evil (by modern moral standards), selfish, useless (by the standards of what God is alleged to be able to do) and/or dumb (by human standards), and if the Bible as written were true, that may not be that great. Before I imagine could sincerely worship that god, I'm going to have a whole lot of questions that I need a whole lot of answers to, that are so amazing that they make the argument here seem like little more than a fart in an elevator. It might certainly be possible that I'm lacking the understanding to see the love, omnipotence and/or wisdom behind a whole lot of things in the Bible, so I am open to the possibility that God is tri-omni, it just seems like a huge stretch. * I might consider _insincerely_ worshipping them if I can't be convinced that they're all-loving, because an eternity is a lot to give up for the sake of a moral stance (and doing so may indeed be irrational). But who knows if said god would accept insincere worship.

@SmolJordan

2 жыл бұрын

iirc he replied with a pretty predictable "well, god reveals himself to everyone who truly tries, so keep trying" kind of response. I remember thinking that it was basically his resignation in this debate

@zero8388

2 жыл бұрын

Think of it this way. Since the Devil wants to steal, kill, and destroy our lives, he would try to convince us that our efforts to find God are useless. You never know how close you are to God when you stop looking. When the feeling that it's not working is the greatest, it could be a sign that your getting close to something big. Keep seeking guys.

@blueredingreen

2 жыл бұрын

@@zero8388 "Because the devil" is an easy excuse, but why is the will of an all-powerful god subject to the whims of the devil? Is the devil all-powerful too? Or if God simply lets the devil interfere, then it's God's choice and Alex's argument still stands. The feeling that it's not working should always increase over time, as it keeps not working. So at the current time, the feeling that it's not working would always be the greatest, which isn't really a sign of anything other than the fact that your brain managed to spot a pattern. And that feeling inevitably leads to either (a) desperation, which may make one more inclined to see things that aren't actually there, just because you want to see them that badly, or (b) giving up, in which case a Christian might simply say that they didn't honestly seek God or something along those lines.

@zero8388

2 жыл бұрын

@Blue The reason it seems that the Devil does whatever he wants is because he somewhat does, although limited by God. If the Devil really had full control the world would be in chaos. But God works bad things for good, and he does good things through his people. The reason God doesn't prove his existence is 1: it already is evident in creation, and 2: because he wants us to have free will. God wants us to choose him rather than be mindless and forced to. You might say to this: well how is he evident if I don't see him. To this I would say you aren't seeing clearly. You could say the world was created from a big bang. But that is unprovable. You could say there is evidence such as the continents matching up or evidence of evolution. What if during the flood when Noah was on the ark, God tore apart Pangea and crated something new, but out of the old thing. And perhaps he created it to look as if the world had been going for millions of years because he really did speed up the earth processes under the water. But there are more examples of God's existence. Like peoples testimonies. How can you explain a almost completely deaf woman going to a Christian Wemons Conference and walking out hearing. How can you explain a youth student at my church who had scoliosis was prayed for and healed. And how a student praying for her had their hand on her back during the prayer and said they felt her back reposition itself. How can you explain Nik Wallenda, the world famous tightrope walker, doing the impossible on a regular basis, without God. In 2017 I beleive, he had a tragic accident involving the collapse of a 8 person pyramid on a 30 foot high tightrope. Five members did not grab the rope and fell, and all are back on the wire today. For reference, a 48 foot fall has a 50% fatality rate. According to this, I would have to assume that deaths would occur, and yet, all are not just alive, but have to injuries that prevented them from getting back on the wire. Nik repeatedly reminds everyone he tells this story that it was only by the grace of God that this happened. The Devil tried to shut them down, but here they are today showing off the Glory of God. So in short, God IS evident. And since he's evident, he doesn't need to prove he exists. He isn't submitting to the Devil or hiding himself. Perhaps the Devil and all his demons were also created with free will. Like us, God may have created them for them to choose him, but they didn't. And similar to us, he let's them have their free will. The important thing to understand is that God wants us to have free will so we can choose to love him. That's why he created us. I also appreciate you taking the time to reply. Please reply to this message as well if you want. Praying for you and this channel.

@blueredingreen

2 жыл бұрын

@@zero8388 None of that really explains why someone can sincerely seek God and be unable to find him. Assuming God is powerful enough so nothing would stop his will, why would God ignore the number of his children that he loves calling out to him, possibly to the extent of letting them give up and/or die without having found God and ending up in hell as a result? If a parent leaves a child to their own devices and ignores their child calling out to them for any significant period of time, that's what most of modern society would call neglect. Your argument is that God's existence is evident FOR YOU, but it's clearly not evident for a number of atheists. You can say they "aren't seeing clearly", but why doesn't God make them see clearly or give them some piece of evidence they would see clearly? It seems either God is intentionally hiding his existence from those actively seeking him (which doesn't seem consistent with God being all-loving), or he's incapable of clearly making his existence known to those individuals (which isn't consistent with God being all-powerful). Or he simply doesn't exist, which seems like the most likely explanation. * Some may reply that "God works in mysterious ways", but this isn't a satisfying response, because one can just dismiss anything that doesn't appear to match what one would expect God to do as him working in mysterious ways. It just allows you to maintain that God has certain properties without this being reflected in reality in any way, and means that no argument or evidence would be able to change your mind (it's unfalsifiable). I could rebut the various other points you've raised, but that would just distract from Alex's argument.

Very well said Alex

I have spoken with so many atheists who had been Catholics. I have no hard feeling at all with the Catholic church, or the Presbyterian, Lutheran, or any others. But I mention this, because I wish I could help, but have never met you, and not sure that it would make a difference, but God knows that I would if I could. The reason I mentioned the churches was because I cannot recall ever not believing in God. I accepted Christ as my Savior when I was eight and it was a real experience. Not a seeker of signs and wonders, but I have had some very unusual things happen anyhow. I am not superstitious to any extent of which I am aware. But I would like to help. So, maybe knowing this will help, or not. God forgive you for your unbelief and grant you grace in this hour of need. I can only suggest that you spend time along, and listen to your heart as your mind takes a rest.

Have you spoken on your opinion on meditation & the (non) experience of non-duality as an experience of 'God'? I would be interested if you have read Buddhist literature and would be consider committing time to insight meditation to seek a sort of spiritual experience.

“If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. If I wish to preserve myself in faith I must constantly be intent upon holding fast the objective uncertainty so as to remain out upon the deep, over seventy thousand fathoms of water, still preserving my faith.” - Soren Kierkegaard.

"If there is a God, he is perfectly loving, something I'm pretty sure Jonathan agrees with." I don't think that premise is sound even from a theistic standpoint. Most theists throughout history believe in a God or Gods who are not perfectly loving, and even if one believes that a perfectly loving God exists, there is nothing that prevents them from conceiving of one who is not.

@1caiser

2 жыл бұрын

I think, when it comes to discussions about the Christian God, modern philosophers define God based off of Anselm's explanation for a "maximally great being", which is a being whose positive attributes are at their most conceivable potential. As in humans, we look upon selfishness negatively and altruism positively, so a maximally great being would be all-altruistic; all-loving. The Bible even goes as far as to say God is love itself, in various verses in 1 John 8. It is true that a god does not necessarily have to be a "maximally great being", it just wouldn't meet the definitions of pertaining to the discussion. There are religions which a diety is not all-loving, but bringing that up is simply a distraction from the argument of "Christian God vs Atheism".

It's no personal gods are hiding from anybody.

People criticise atheists but never realize how much their heart aches that god is either non existent or just doesn't care enough

If the evidence pointed to the existence of a god, I would not have any choice BUT to believe. But worship it? No. Any being that demanded, or even just desired, worship would be the least worthy of it.

@elijahtrent21

2 жыл бұрын

There is no reason for you to have evidence for God than.

@mantabsekali920

2 жыл бұрын

@@elijahtrent21 of course there is. We can try to destroy that God hahaha

Saying one would not worship a god, if one were shown to actually exist, is _not_ the same as being resistant to the idea of a god. They're completely separate issues.

Zechariah 7:11 “But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.”

"god": International Man of Mystery....

Thanks Alex, I don’t want to come here and insult you by throwing out a couple of paragraphs trying or failing to refute everything you’ve said, but I do just want to say that I was really struck by the respect, thoughtfulness, openness and earnestness of this speech. 
I think it should give any Christian or theist like me who thinks they “get” atheism, but perhaps don’t properly know any individual people who walk that path, a helpful moment to pause and consider. Thanks for this. It makes me feel like my own belief in God, regardless of my own efforts, has come to me relatively relatively easy, entirely by his grace. And my trust in him has certainly completely failed at times, but whatever it is that ultimately set you apart from believing in him, has never happened to me, or has not had the same effect on me. I’m impressed that you continue to seek him in the face of such strong uncertainty, and researched skepticism. I pray, if the Lord God really is real, that you continue to seek him until you find him, and that you will find in him more than we could ever humanly hope to find.

@Picardspassword

Жыл бұрын

"but whatever it is that ultimately set you apart from believing in him" first off, that's condescending as hell, and secondly, don't shy away from it and act as if it's some unforeseen circumstance, call it what it is. Rationality. You do not allow yourself intellectual honesty, and so, rational thought cannot truly be obtained, whereas, Alex clearly has, that's the "thing setting you apart".

@MatthewFearnley

Жыл бұрын

@@Picardspassword thanks for your thoughts. I don't agree on your second point, but I'll take your first point into consideration. Do you mean it's condescending in the same way it would have been if I'd said something like "Whatever it is that caused you to be wrong"?

I would not quote the Atheist Experience poll as evidence for resistant non-belief, as that poll question was specifically asking "would you _worship_ a god if it existed". Keyword here is: worship. That's a completely different question from asking an atheist "would you submit to the truth of a god if it were true". Worship and belief are different subjects. That poll was showing that atheists don't think that worship is compulsory for theism If I had absolute proof that a god existed, I would believe it, but I would not worship it, not out of some stubborn resistance against believing such god exists but out of questioning the necessity of worship. Why are we making the assumption that a god wants to be worshipped? What does our miniscule worship mean to a being outside of the universe? Does such a god care for such vanity? I have no reason to suspect it would. If a god wants to be worshipped then I need an explanation as to why. That explanation must come from this god directly. The god itself must make a case as to why it deserves my worship. And as any such god is purely hypothetical, I don't know what those reasons would be and thus I will not act on a presumption. I voted NO on that poll

Great speech, but couldn't be more wrong on that worship thing...expect a lot more from somone like him.

Amazing! I agree with most everything, but I would challenge you that even though you haven’t experienced anything, that the simple belief and hope of the god and the positive effects it would entail, still have true effects such as hope itself of escaping death bestowed upon the individual who is convinced by it, whether it be true or not. Practical illusions are one of the toughest thing to address, but on one hand you can say that you aren’t convinced it’s actually true, it would be very hard to deny that the belief in it has true and often beneficial effects, and for some people that may be enough to convince them in some ways

Do you spend the same amount of effort searching for aliens, yetis, unicorns, angels and leprechauns Alex?

@rwt2320

7 ай бұрын

None of those are as culturally relevant. Religion needs to be examined and fought, might as well put in the work

"Everything everywhere in every way at every point in time" is in my opinion the best way to explain infinity. It allows for infinity to be infinitely infinite. If we can understand what this sentence to literally mean everything everywhere in every way at every point in time then in a roundabout way it calls for infinite facts. In this infinitely long list of facts it states "Every God that has ever been uttered, every God that is currently being discussed and every God that will every be mentioned all exist in this infinitely infinite reality. At the same time they do not." While it does allow for an either or perspective, it's key to note that when arguing using the laws of infinity to that this is simultaneous as well as eventual. Unlike other cases for the existence of God, this one doesn't presuppose anything about God's goodness being the reason for his existence. It's requirement lies it's ability to prove that the infinitely infinite is in fact infinite infinitely. Which, it must if it is to be considered truly infinite. Otherwise you're talking on the basis of infinity being infinitely finite. Which is just.... paradoxical.... still true but not too... moral cases say nothing to prove the existence of God, really. Differing cultures are all the proof you need to disclaim any of those arguments... So there you go. God does and doesn't exist. Turns out everyone was right all along 👍

Sin Separates Us from God 1Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save, nor His ear too dull to hear. 2But your iniquities have built barriers between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He does not hear. 3For your hands are stained with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, and your tongue mutters injustice.… Isaiah 59:2

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.◄ Hebrews 11:6 ►King James Bible

I am fully willing to do as Jesus said and give up everything I have to follow him, all I ask is that he show that he exists. at this point the only one at fault for my unbelief is him.

Why do folks comment - Alex never responds or acknowledges he reads them, - so why do you bother? Ignore - in fact, unsubscribe and stop being fanboys to someone who could not care one iota what you think.

I think there has been plenty of occasions when what you'd call a reluctant believer has momentarily become a none reluctant believer. If any atheist has at ever at any time found themselves in such desperation that they feel the need to ask God, I'd call that none reluctant belief. You know it to be bollocks but you try anyway. Desperation leads you to want to believe, to have an open mind. Only, god rarely answers, same as how he often doesn't answer devout believers. Also what about people who don't know of god's existence or claimed existence. People in isolated tribes or even native Americans pre colonialism. If noone can spread his word, then those people stand absolutely no chance.

Alex : questioning like Job: Good thing God isn't testing you as he let haSatan do to job. We are under Grace in the New Covenant not the pre Abrahamic Covenant of Job's day. But it's wise to learn from this book.

🌱 Love you man…!🌱

@karmaoutlaw

2 жыл бұрын

Hey…I’m a card-carrying atheist here, but I just had an interesting thought. What if “God” is simply one of our own higher states of consciousness, OR, if outside of our own personal being, exists at such a refined level of vibration the only way for us here on the denser levels to pick up “his” communiqués is to meditate deeply, such as samadhi? 🌱

Hmmm. I'm atheist. I am the recipient of unconditional love. I have no desire or understanding of why anything needs, wants or is deserving of my worship? Huh? Should I worship my wife? The person I am most close to and divulge my deepest feelings to. Worship my parents? Huh. Yes they gave me life but worship? What a strange reality. Just not mine nor a desire I ever would have. Some weird thoughts I just cannot get on board with.

Dear Alex, I believe that you have tried all that you said to find God. And I can hear, (from what it sounds like to me), your frustration in regards to God not revealing himself to you if he is real. And I can understand your frustration, I mean you did go through a lot of effort and I'm sure emotional hardships to wrestle with this. However, there may be a couple things to consider: 1. Your reliance on your own understanding. If you truly want to follow God, you will need to put him first, even above your own reasoning and thought process. This doesn't mean that you have to believe God is real without him proving himself to you. I believe God is willing to give each one of us the proof we need to know he is real and he gives us enough understanding of it to be convicted of his existence. However, we need to be willing to submit to God's way of doing things even if it doesn't make sense in your own thought process. 2. Are you humble? I can't help but hear a little bit of (arrogance maybe?) as you talk about how God basically didn't do what you believe he should have done (please forgive me if I'm not hearing you right). Like, if God does exist, do you believe it was wrong for him to keep himself hidden from you up until now? If so, it's like you are saying you know better than him. But God's timing is not our own. How can we know if God is in the process of revealing himself to you and it's just not when you thought it would be? It's not that you have to get everything perfect just so God reveals himself to you. I don't believe that, but God knows the depths of our hearts and he knows how that will come out and affect our relationship with him. Who knows, you might be just where he wants you and he could be waiting for the right time. If you read this, I really appreciate it. I'm not against you. In fact I'm rooting for you all the way and praying for you. I truly believe you will find God if you keep pursuing him, don't give up. Ask him to reveal anything that might be keeping you from knowing him (and you might already be praying that). He is there. Jesus is there, he is alive and he loves you. I believe he will make himself known to you.

It's not irrational to be willing to consider evidence for God, but to despise the character of Yahweh. Who will consign most of humanity to Eternal torture for not being in a position to acquire the correct beliefs. Yet the heavens remain silent on how to determine those correct beliefs.

The wonderful part about the concept, God, is that it brings humans to the heights of speculation, study, and analysis of the dark shadows of the human psyche, and even sometimes to a direct confrontation with that shadow.

@Picardspassword

Жыл бұрын

i'd say it's a convenient way to avoid those conversations, actually. You don't have to have an honest conversation with yourself about your morality and self-imposed purpose if you believe an all-knowing being has already assigned both of these things to you unquestioningly from birth.

@henryspragge

Жыл бұрын

The concept of God is what often inspires many to actually consider their morality. Most people don't give morality a thought until they realize their actions have consequences. We see this a lot with teenagers. But once they learn that there are consequences, then they start seriously considering their actions and whether they are right or wrong choices. It's often a struggle for parents, but something they work at a lot, to try and teach children that actions do in fact have consequences. In the same way, God, with the possibility of effects from our actions that go beyond the grave, is a motivator that makes people consider their life as a whole, and ask whether they are living with right or wrong choices. And in this, of course, is where they also get an expanded purpose. You can have a purpose that extends to your grave, or you can have a purpose (with the concept of God) that extends beyond your grave. One can be to keep generations alive and happy throughout the future by your legacy, or it can be (with the concept of God) to secure for mankind a life that is more than human, a divine life after death. My argument is that the concept of God expands the realm of questioning objectively; though you are right that there are some who use the concept of God to justify their behaviors and never 'grow up'

Why would God's existence depend on humans believing in his existence, especially if he is supposedly everywhere? Why would an all-powerful God need worship or anything else from humans? What does God get out of our acknowledgement of his existence?

“Why is God hidden from me” 1.“in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” ‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭4:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬ 2. “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:18-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

@JD-wu5pf

2 жыл бұрын

"The invisible things of him are clearly seen" That must be Alex's problem... he can't clearly see the invisible aspects of God.

@japexican007

2 жыл бұрын

@@JD-wu5pf or perhaps read the whole passage as to why they aren’t clearly seen to some

@JD-wu5pf

2 жыл бұрын

@@japexican007 Ah yes. The Bible really likes to pull the "Everyone secretly believes in God even if they claim they don't" card an awful lot. Along with the "everyone who disagrees with this book is a fool" card. It's such a kafkatrap. You're going to need to come to terms with the fact that your ancient book is wrong and that some people genuinely want to believe in God but God remains hidden to them.

@japexican007

2 жыл бұрын

@@JD-wu5pf I don’t think the Bible claims “everyone secretly believes God” perhaps you should re-read the claim, perhaps everyone internally knows God exists as such they are without excuse, but that’s not what you claimed, not even close

@japexican007

2 жыл бұрын

@@JD-wu5pf to help you out Your claim “everyone secretly believes the earth is round even those who claim the earth is flat” The Bible “everyone knows instinctively the earth is round, regardless of the excuses they make, as such they are without excuse” and the more you deny the more God let’s you follow your own truth, he lets you depart from him, even Satan the god of this world blinds you because you don’t want the truth otherwise you would come to the light but you don’t because you don’t want God, you have made yourself your own god and removed him from your life

If we knock and no answer did not God answered by hiding himself, I have sort for a god I haven't found, but there's a question of my personal evil

I read the title of this video as "The Incapable God" and thought it a fitting name for the Abrahamic god.

A hidden god is indistinguishible to no god

◄ Isaiah 59:2 ► But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.

If there is one thing I think theists will say that you could have done differently, is that you need not to think, ”lean not to my own understanding" a phrase from the bible, albeit inaccurate.

Alex I just want to argue like you, you're like a demon of reason. Who gurds the edge of reasoning.

The worship thing is interesting, what is the point, how does it benefit god (assuming it exists)? If I kept pet cockroaches that could somehow worship me, it would be amusing at first, but I'd quickly tire of it. And secondly, does this god deserve worship? If he's so powerful, making the universe would have been an easy thing to do, as easy as me picking my nose, but I wouldn't want or deserve credit for it. And secondly again, if god made everything he didn't do a very good job of it, just look at all the problems on earth, even before humans existed. A world based on predation and deadly natural phenomena (floods, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes etc etc) is not an ideal world

…19I ask instead, did Israel not understand? First, Moses says: “I will make you jealous by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation without understanding.” 20And Isaiah boldly says: “I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME; I REVEALED MYSELF to those who did not ask for Me.” 21But as for Israel he says: “All day long I have held out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”… Israel was blinded because they had Received so much privilege from God and were even visited by God himself but has him handed over to be crucified,no other nation received such privileges so because of thier disobedience stubbornness and hardheartedness they were blinded.but not all as you know some were saved.Even though Jesus was with his own people many did not believe in him , sometimes even if you sit down with God and share a meal you might not recognise him the problem is not with God but your understanding of who God is and your faith in him.Jesus gives you every breath you take all of creation is sustained by his mighty power but for some reason you cannot recognise that .the fault is not in God my friend.may you have eyes to see and ears to hear that you may know the living God and understand he is your maker.

2:30 - but that's actually irrelevant here. The question isn't "would you worship God, assuming we proved that he exists?" it's "are you prejudiced against evidence that supports God's existence?". They're two different questions, that are far too often conflated with each other.

Alex has an amazing ability to clearly state complex issues in an understandable way that convinces me of his genius in helping me to understand issues that I have wrestled with for decades. Thanks Alex. I look forward to more videos from you.

God doesn't reveal himself as God to non-believers.

Everyone here saying Alex is making a living on being a non- believer. Trust me, he would make a BETTER living being a converted atheist.

2:35 ehm... Alex. You should know better. Saying you won't worship it, doesn't mean you wouldn't accept it exists. Not by a long shot. The two things aren't even related to each other. Saying you wouldn't worship it is in no way resistance to finding out whether it exists. It just means that if it exists you'll just acknowledge it exists and continue to not worship it. There is nothing astonishing about atheists saying they wouldn't worship the immoral monster portrayed in the bible, or really anything, either... Because any god worthy of worship would be horrified by the idea of being worshipped, if it _wants_ to be worshipped it isn't worthy of worship. So there's no situation in which voluntary worship is an option. If it turned out to be a good god, as opposed to the biblical god, I might be completely open to being buddies. But worship? Don't be ridiculous.

@TylerBrownNevoic

2 жыл бұрын

This is my initial intuition too, but this is actually kind of just a semantics question. If you define God as an all-loving being worthy of worship, and then you find undeniable proof of existence of said God, you should worship him, because he's definitionally worthy of it. If you don't include that in the definition then I agree with you, but most Christians would actually.

@vsaucyboi7214

2 жыл бұрын

Worship is an act of gratefulness towards the Creator. In the theistic perspective, God gave you every single thing you are grateful for. It is only normal you recognize it.

@deathofallthingspotato9919

2 жыл бұрын

@@TylerBrownNevoic Yes, I think the word itself poisons this discussion, as Christians can sort of use the word to mean any positive interaction with god. To me, thats not worship, its normal interaction. Also, defining something as worthy of worship is really dishonest, as it sort of defeats the point of the question. If you don't include that in the definition (and I won't because I can't imagine something that is worthy of worship), then the question "would you worship that being" becomes meaningful, and the answer is probably no.

@nagranoth_

2 жыл бұрын

@@TylerBrownNevoic no you shouldn't. There is no connection between worthy of something and others "shoulding" doing that. That's complete nonsense. On top of that, as said, anything worthy of worship does not want to be worshipped, would find the very idea hurtful, yet you say we should hurt it.... On top on top of that, where do you get the idea that you get to define anything? We're talking about if you were to find out a god exists, you do not get to choose what it is that exists...

@nagranoth_

2 жыл бұрын

@@vsaucyboi7214 bullshit. Worship is demeaning yourself, to make the other feel special. Gratefulness (a) is something deserved by actions, not by just existing, and no you do not get to claim that it existing means it did anything for you, and (b) is expressed by gratefulness, not worship.

Any good christians will cry hearing this You are a blesses man alex HE will come to you

Thank you for a brilliant talk. Does veganism make god possible?💚

Nice

…3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not proclaim ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.…2cCorinthians 4:4

It is a rare thing to find Biblical salvation from a Roman Catholic source. Forget them. Just consult the Bible itself. No wonder so many atheists are ex-Catholic.

Yeah. Satan has blinded you from knowing the truth. What can you do? What can a god do in this matter?

people can resist the holy spirit Acts 7:51 “Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.”.

Is Alex our next Christopher Hitchens? 🤔

Alex Hitchens. You, my friend are the One True God. Amen.

I disagree with Alex on this point. I don't think that 85% of the respondents to a poll stating that even if they discovered that God existed they would not worship him is the same as being resistant to belief in him. In fact the premise explicitly states that they DO believe in him. They just choose not to worship him. This isn't resistance to belief, or at least it isn't necessarily such. It's resistance to worship of that god. One could do the same for any God. Knowing that a god exists and choosing to worship that God are two different things. I'm not in the same camp as Alex. I don't like the idea of a god, and i certainly would not characterise the Christian God as something deserving of worship. In fact, the mere act of making worship a contingency for the receipt of love and salvation automatically disqualify any being from being deserving of worship, not to mention the many other reasons why the christian god does not deserve worship.

@emmadasilva1794

Жыл бұрын

In Christianity, worship is not a contingency for receiving love and salvation. God is seen as offering his love and salvation to us for free. All a person has to do is believe that and accept Jesus as their savior. God doesn't force you to believe in that. In order to truly believe in the mechanisms God used for salvation, one has to also recognize Jesus as God, not just as a savior. And a true God, by nature, ought to be worshipped. So there's a little more nuance there than it merely being that we have to tell God how great he his before he gives us salvation.

@ptolemyauletesxii8642

Жыл бұрын

@@emmadasilva1794 Um... Have you not noticed the rather obvious contradiction in what you just said? On one hand you said that worship is not a contingency for receiving god's love and salvation. Then a moment later, seemingly without irony, you said all one need do is believe and accept Jesus as their saviour. Setting aside the obvious fact that one cannot choose what one believes, isn't accepting Jesus as one's saviour the same as worshipping Jesus? Can one truly be said to have accepted Jesus as their saviour, and to have received salvation, without worship? Isn't that what accepting Jesus is, IE an act of worship?

@emmadasilva1794

Жыл бұрын

@@ptolemyauletesxii8642 Kind of? My point is that there's more nuance to it than that. Worship is a natural occurrence to finding out who God is. You just do it, kind of like how you praise a beloved spouse. But worship is not the emphasis on how you become saved. It's about accepting God's gift. Worship just naturally comes after. Recognizing that Jesus died for your sins and rose from the grave is not the same as worship. Rightly knowing that the only way that would have worked was that Jesus was also God is a part of accepting Jesus as your savior, yes. If you realize that the greatest man you've ever met saved you from your predicament, but then also find out that he's God, you would then also worship him, because he's God. That's just how God works, at least in theory, since you also said at the end of your original comment that the Christian God isn't deserving of worship. That's a different discussion though, as I was just trying to point out that the salvation formula is not "worship me and you'll be saved." It's "accept the free gift of salvation and you'll be saved." The worship just naturally comes after that, as I've said.

@emmadasilva1794

Жыл бұрын

@@ptolemyauletesxii8642 To sum up, I would define worship as praise and admiration. That's different from accepting a gift from someone.

I listen I find myself thinking he's looking for, as he put it, "a god *in* the universe". That phrase reveals to me the mistake so many, including theists, make, namely, God as an item, albeit metaphysical. None of us will find this as it doesn't exist. Here i prefer the finding of God in being and consciousness itself. The breath in breathing, the eye of sight to paraphrase the Upanishads. A consciousnesses looking outward to find God in its contents is like a cat looking for catness in its litter tray.

What will Theists feel if someday they learned that literally, there is no God esoecially those that are already a devotee and blind? Will they feel utterly disappointed? Frustrated? Devastated? Will they accept it? Will they still keep their faith on the non-existing God? How will they continue with their lives? For Atheists, I think, if one day, there will be proof that there's actually God, they will just accept it since that's the fact. What if God is the whole universe? It's origin and end are still unknown, maybw indefinite. It creates and destroys. It might be conscious but it does not necessary mean that it has concern with it's creations. And, it's not human-like in appearance. I'm just wondering about the Theists how will they deal with this.

@emmadasilva1794

Жыл бұрын

Speaking as a Christian, if there were proof that the God of the Bible did not exist, I would reject Christianity immediately. My belief is not contingent upon how good Christianity makes me feel. In fact, being a Christian can be difficult at times. Being a Christian means you are continually dying to yourself and living for Christ instead, living the way Christ wanted you to live, in service to others, humble, poor, associating with the lowly, etc. I'll give you an example of a specific piece of evidence that would make me reject the entirety of Christianity: if Jesus did not resurrect from the dead. If there were evidence that demonstrated he did not resurrect from the dead, then Christianity is absolutely pointless.

I actively hope Christianity in most of its forms ISNT true, and I don't find it self-defeating in the slightest. Most forms I know of include a hell in which many, if not even the majority of people will go to burn FOREVER. I actively don't wish this to be true. Nor would I respect a god like that. If I "worshipped" it, it would only be out of self-preservation, but then this god would know I don't worship earnestly. Why is wishing this not to be true at all irrational or self defeating?

Call someone's name. Do they respond immediately, or do they sometimes respond later? Is answering later proof that they do not exist? What if this man will be reached...later?

@bubbafowpend9943

8 ай бұрын

Are you saying that in each and every case that someone earnestly seeks god, that he will without fail answer "at some point", affirming his existence?

@BaptistJoshua

8 ай бұрын

@@bubbafowpend9943 earnestly seeks *god?* *g* od? Earnest, huh?

@BaptistJoshua

8 ай бұрын

@@bubbafowpend9943 [John 4:24 KJV] 24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth. You speak of earnest, and the Bible speaks of truth.

@bubbafowpend9943

8 ай бұрын

@@BaptistJoshua so even if he hasn't revealed himself to someone, they should behave as if he has, is that the point you're trying to make?

@BaptistJoshua

8 ай бұрын

@@bubbafowpend9943 No. I am saying just because someone attempts something and receives supposedly no response does not mean they never will. Call someone's name. If they do not answer as the words come out of your mouth, does that prove they do not exist?

Im good at picking up incongruence in people too. Those micro signals and, I may be wrong, but something despite assertions feels incongruent. I hear and see mannerisms and tonality of Christopher Hitchens. There's something of the act and theatre about this. However, as suggeste d below i think he's looking in the wrong direction.

3:15 Is premise #1 necessarily true?

@luxeayt6694

2 жыл бұрын

If you believe in most depictions of christianity then yes.

@maxwelldillon4805

2 жыл бұрын

I don't think it is!

@misterocain

2 жыл бұрын

@@luxeayt6694 But the depiction goes against the written record of the Christian God (just like the Islamic God) strongly suggesting otherwise.

@misterocain

2 жыл бұрын

@@GospodinStanoje I'd submit myself to an all powerful but hateful god. It's called "survival" and also the afterlife could be rewarded with unerring obedience. Not too different to the relationship of Putin with his subjects. Lay low and you'll survive. Disobey or criticise and it's a case of the old nerve gas.

@misterocain

2 жыл бұрын

@@GospodinStanoje Oh i would. I wouldn't risk standing out like a sore thumb. Of course believers "truly love" God because the consequences of not doing so are eternal torment and it's God who decides. Don't forget that the Abrahamic religions teach you to fear God (as a kid i never understood why it was necessary to fear a loving, forgiving god).

Sorry alex you lost me at 4:49. I just can't imagine how anything could be deserving of worship. And even if something could reach that level of awesomeness, the moment it wouldn't stop everyone from something as stupid as worship, it would, in my eyes, stop being awesome enough to deserve worship.

@JD-wu5pf

2 жыл бұрын

How are you defining worship? Worship is just having a deep respect and adoration for something. If God did exist and truly did create all life and was responsible for all of the good things in my life, I would absolutely respect and adore that entity. If you can't imagine an entity deserving of worship, you aren't imaginative enough.

@JaKeCaKez

2 жыл бұрын

Agreed. Why would you worship an evil god regardless if its real or not.

@Smitywerban

2 жыл бұрын

@@JD-wu5pf it is still the being that created cancer and simular horrors or at least it is not preventing them. Why would i admire an omnipotent being for doing something that didn't take him any effort to do?

@JD-wu5pf

2 жыл бұрын

@@Smitywerban Not necessarily. Evil could be caused by an evil God who's just as powerful as the good God that created all life. Why are you limiting yourself to an Abrahamic omni-God? Why should physical exertion matter when it comes to adoration and respect? If there was a button that could magically end world hunger, would you respect the person who presses the button just as much as the person who walks away from the button? Both take no effort to do and yet one is clearly more respectable of a person.

@Smitywerban

2 жыл бұрын

@@JD-wu5pf oh yeah my bad. I was hung up on Alex earlier at 4:18 refering to Christianity specifically.

Ask any Christian about L. Ray Smith, Bobby Collier, Jordan Maxwell, and Mark Passio. Ask them about 13 zodiac sign astrology. Ask them about astro theology, or mysticism in the bible taught by Bill Donahue. Ask about universalism. You are debating and talking about common or exoteric knowledge rather than uncommon esoteric knowledge.

Cosmic Skeptic, Alex, though I watched the whole talk, these snippets are great. I think I'd, if I found a god, would have many questions. I couldn't worship automatically. Trust just is too broken by the extreme suffering by all on this planet. Nothing could make up for it. I've never understood how Christians can think Jesus suffered 'the worst', others have, so much worse.👍💙🥰✌

“Unless you people see signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.” John 4:48 “The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork” psalm 19:1 Also Alex I don’t question ur seeking, I trust that you did infact go beyond necessary for an atheist but maybe you got all the facts you needed but was not willing to recognise them. How about the history accuracy of the bible and Jesus? Does that not count for anything, or how an obscure Jew humiliated and crucified by an empire would soon be enshrined as the icon for a God that could ever be for that same empire? How can these things be Alex?

@rwt2320

7 ай бұрын

How can it be that a religion spreads? What exactly is the point?

God isn’t hidden, its implicit in every structure. In everything that sustains itself we find God, and it becomes increasingly clear as you scale that measure qualitatively. Quality scales ultimately to God.

@katamas832

2 жыл бұрын

"In everything that sustains itself we find God" How exactly?

@06rtm

2 жыл бұрын

@@katamas832 Because God is the source of all reality so anything that sustains itself does so in his image. If you violate the laws of God you die. Its that simple.

@katamas832

2 жыл бұрын

@@06rtm What you said is basically "we find God in everything that sustains itself" then say "that is because God is the source of all reality", this is quite circular, you're basically assuming God to begin with. "If you violate the laws of God you die. Its that simple." I have violated many laws of God and I'm still alive. Weird.

@06rtm

2 жыл бұрын

@@katamas832 Simply put, pursuing the good implies an ultimate good. For that reason, reality has a pattern that we can align with; the word for that alignment is the good, and the word for the ultimate good, is God. If we fail to align with that pattern, we die. In ways both large and small. Religion itself is an attempt to determine that good, in a way that offers a path to alignment with God. Once you understand reality as a hierarchy, you can see it in all things.

2:30 Alex should have mentioned the typical reason given by atheists who would not worship the god of the Bible, even if his existence were demonstrated. Such a god is immoral: from the vengeful, senile delinquent of the Old Testament to the failed apocalyptic prophet of the New who threatened infinite torture for finite sins.

May Allah guide you brother. I've seen some of your interactions with Mohammed Hijab, and this video also seems genuine. I hope your genuineness and search for truth allows for you to be guided towards it. Ameen