I travelled from Manchester to meet a friend in London. He travelled from Paris to a destination he insisted on calling Londres. “That’s OK”, I said. “Two different names for the same city.” He shook his head sadly. “No. We started in different places and will return to different places. Therefore we are not now in the same city” In the confusion thus created he left and I picked up the tab.

@neoaureus

4 жыл бұрын

Johnny Cameo ....this is the most elegant , literary and erudite KZread comment ever....I'm sure you've read Italo Calvinos Invisible Cities. Kudos !

@neoaureus

4 жыл бұрын

...who in the world are you? ....I think I can take an intelligent guess....

@commentfreely5443

4 жыл бұрын

you say tomato, i say tomato, and the guy with a gun says tomato

@Oofglobber

2 жыл бұрын

One, no one & 100,000

@canastraroyal

3 ай бұрын

People can be difficult!

I think the most important question here would be whether people actually use these terms this way. Because I have never heard of anyone making this distinction, and I haven't seen people using the m7b5 and half-diminished symbols in different ways - often people choose one or the other and use it for all chords of the same type, a bit like people either choose "maj7" or the triangle symbol. In the end, both "half-diminished" and "m7b5" are just two easier ways of referring to the chord that is actually called "diminished-minor 7th", similarly as full-diminished would be "diminished-diminished 7th" and dominant 7th would be "major-minor 7th". These are simply terms that people have come up with to make the 7th chord naming a bit simpler. It's easier to say (and distinguish between) "dominant", "major 7th" and "minor 7th" than "major-minor 7th", "major-major 7th" and "minor-minor 7th". My point here is that these are just "spoken language" terms that have become somewhat standardized. They aren't really formal terms. I know that a counter argument to my post could be that "but those people are using the terms incorrectly", but I disagree - these labels aren't "formal" and they aren't 100% standardized either. We are basically talking about the "spoken language" of musicians. Both of these chords - the vii in major key and the ii in minor key - are derived from the same degrees of the diatonic scale. These are the scale degrees 7 2 4 6 of the major scale and the scale degrees 2 4 (b)6 1 of the minor scale (for example notes B D F A in C major and A minor). It is exactly the same chord and has the same origin. Also, the use of half-diminished chords predates dominant 9th chords - they can't be derived from dominant 9th chords, because half-diminished chords were used before dominant 9th chords were a thing. It's simply the diatonic VII chord in the major key. Similarly, the IIm7b5 isn't actually derived by lowering the 5th of a normal IIm7 chord. It's simply the diatonic II chord in the minor key. I think all of this stems from the common misunderstanding that "diminished" always means "substitute for dominant". That's not the only use for diminished chords. Classical musicians have been using the diminished triad as the ii chord in a minor key for ages (and in classical music, this is pretty much as common as using the diminished chord as the vii chord). And if you look at full-diminished chords, their only function isn't a "rootless substitute for 7b9" - you have common-tone diminished chords and chromatic passing diminished chords, and they are all full-diminished chords, even though they are functioning in completely different ways. Actually, if you look at classical music, the half-diminished chord is much more likely to be used as a ii chord than as a vii chord. Going vii half-diminished I is fairly rare. Going ii half-diminished V is done all the time. The ii chord is often simply inverted (1st inversion is most common, 2nd inversion is fairly common). The third inversion is used over tonic pedal points where you usually alternate between the i and ii chords over 1st scale degree in bass. Even in major keys, the most common use of the vii half diminished chord is to continue to the chord a fifth below. It's mostly used in sequences - IV vii iii vi ii V I (and yes, even in classical music all of these chords may be 7th chords, except maybe for the I in the end). The full sequence is rarer in major keys, though - it's much more common in minor keys. I do understand where the name of m7b5 comes from, though - jazz musicians probably started using the term because IIm7b5 V7 I and IIm7 V7 I are so similar. But just because the chord has two (or more) different uses doesn't mean we should name it in a different way based on that use. Chord symbols aren't functional symbols. They simply tell you what notes to play. We don't do this with any other chord. We don't use a different symbol for tritone subs or backdoor dominants, or non-functional dominants, even though those chords are used way differently than regular dominant 7th chords (and we need to remember that the term "dominant" comes from the fact that it's built on the dominant - the 5th degree of the scale). And similarly, diminished 7th chords that have different functions don't have different names either. If we don't do it with any other chord, why should we do it with half-diminished chords? Actually, jazz chord symbols often have incorrect enharmonics any way (which BTW I don't have a problem with - often these "incorrect enharmonics" are used to make the chord symbols easier to read), so I really don't see why there would need to be a distinction between the same chord that functions in a different way. Functional analysis is better done with roman numerals than chord symbols. Chord symbols are simply a shorthand that makes communicating collections of notes much faster than having to write all of the notes out on sheet music.

@tonicogsf

3 жыл бұрын

I agree 100% with you on this. Maybe even the guy who made the video would agree after reading your comment, but well, all the issue itself is just a matter of definition, and it honestly don’t matter that much.

@aiwanoe

3 жыл бұрын

100% accurate response to the video. I agree in total

@MaggaraMarine

3 жыл бұрын

@Beni Flores Care to elaborate? Because some things I said are simply facts. Some other things (like whether musicians actually make some kind of a distinction between m7b5 and half-diminished) are more about opinions. But I have never heard of anyone making a distinction between the two chords before. And also, since both chords (the ii and vii half-diminished) use the same diatonic degrees (which would be Ti Re Fa La in Do-based major/La-based minor), I don't see why they should be called different chords.

@jerryengelbach

3 жыл бұрын

Excellent reply. My fellow jazz musicians use both terms. And when we write the chord symbol, it's almost always the ø, not the longer m7b5.

@miguelbass

2 жыл бұрын

You have saved my work to reply and I couldn't have done better, really. Thank you.

This all fell into place when you showed how the resolutions worked in jazz as opposed to classical. Good thinking.

@lordofthemound3890

4 жыл бұрын

I thought the same thing. In Classical music, it looks like the main use of the half-diminished chord is used with a root of the seventh step of the Ionian or major scale. In jazz, key is very relative and chords, a lot of the time, resolve up a fourth.

@chrisoleary9331

4 жыл бұрын

@@lordofthemound3890 in jazz you will also commonly see dominant 7 chords being substituted for m7b5 chords starting on the 3rd note of the dominant chord (ex. Bm7b5 substituted for G7 giving a G9 sound and also resolving up a half step to C) So the half diminished idea is quite common in jazz as well

I love how he always talks like he was just beginner so he can interact with most of us, while it's actually a deep talk.

It's a bit like some words are spelled exactly the same but have completly different meaning and are used in completly different contexts and someone says "But it's the same word!"... no it's not.

@pizzzapi

4 жыл бұрын

that's a great example !

@aylbdrmadison1051

4 жыл бұрын

I sense that this makes sense.

I get your point but both names are used interchanged all the time... If you look at Berklee books they teach the seventh grade of the major scale as a -7b5 and this one resolves up by a semitone, I don't think those guys are wrong, it's just two ways of calling the same thing, I think the title of this vídeo could have been "The two functions and names of the same chord"... In fact I believe that actually speaking the name -7b5 is nonsense because if a minor chord has a flat 5 then it's no longer a minor chord, since a minor chord is Root, b3, P5, if You don't have a perfect fifth then it's no longer a minor chord strictly speaking but it's just one of those things people Say to communicate and I believe that in the jazz context they came with that name as an easy way to explain someone how to play a half-diminished chord easily, like they said to a pianist "Play a minor 7 chord, now lower the 5th a semitone" and that was easier than saying "Play a half-diminished chord" or explaining to that person the intervalic structure of the chord 🤣🤣😅🤷🏻‍♂️🤭

@MaggaraMarine

4 жыл бұрын

Yes, I totally agree. No classically trained musician would say that the m7b5 chord is actually a minor chord (not saying that being classically trained makes you superior or anything like that, but traditional jazz harmony has its origins in classical harmony, and that's also where the use of the half-diminished chord as the ii chord comes from - in a minor key, the ii chord is diminished, and in classical, it is used all the time as a pre-dominant chord). People would call it a diminished chord with a minor 7th. I'm pretty sure people came up with the m7b5 label because they didn't have a formal training in music (and didn't know what it was "officially" called), so they simply called it "m7b5" because it's mostly used in the same way as regular m7 chords. That's how they were thinking about the chord. But yes, it is definitely a diminished chord with a minor 7th, not a "minor chord with a lowered 5th". It is based on the diminished triad and has an added 7th. It's not an "altered minor chord". And I think the important question here is whether this is actually a distinction that anyone makes in real life (I mean, neither of the terms are formal labels for the chord - the formal way of referring to the chord would be "diminished-minor 7th", and both half-dim and m7b5 are just "spoken language" terms, although they are fairly standardized). I haven't really seen people use both m7b5 and half-diminished symbols in the same piece - people choose one or the other, a bit like they choose "maj7" or the triangle symbol for major 7th chords. We really don't label chords based on their function. For example any major-minor 7th chord is called "dominant 7th", even if it doesn't actually have a dominant function. Chord symbols are just a shorthand (and are in a way comparable with tabs). Roman numerals and sheet music are better for functional analysis.

@YnnonTal

3 жыл бұрын

-7b5 tend to be viewed as minor because of the first interval, just as augmented chords are altered dominants and are viewed as major chords, despite having a sharp fifth.

@clustercrash2995

3 жыл бұрын

@@YnnonTal and augmented chord with maj7 is viewed as a dominant? Sure I've heard of maj7 substituting a dom but never assumed this was the standard way to look at that

@YnnonTal

3 жыл бұрын

@@clustercrash2995 things get more complicated there, Aug7 chords are technically non-dominant because they don't usually resolve to the I. I only know this superficially, but I do know, and usually play, augmented chords as major triads with a sharp 5th, which can at times be used as a dominant chord in a progression. That's about the extent of my knowledge on this subject though.

Excellent, thank you! Context & intent are everything and this proves it.

Thank you for providing a very good explanation of context. The voice leading is important if you have a tonal center. Your mastery of harmony continues to amaze me! Thanks for putting up all these useful videos!

Finally learning this -- wonderful explanation. I'm having more trouble getting to the min7(b5) than resolving from it, particularly coming from the IV when I'm substituting min7(b5) for the ii. Thanks for the great education!

Thanks for this clarity! Subscribed.

Wow. This was sooo eye-opening! Amazing lesson, again. 🙌🏼

As a classical musician i tend to treat them as different functions of the same half-diminished chord, because the first example C minor is the relative minor of the second example Eb major, and they share the chord of Dø7 (or Dm7b5)

@hankwilliams5622

Жыл бұрын

That is simply using a different name for the same notes in a chord.

I am just learning m7b5 shapes this week and came across this question myself. What a timely video! Thanks!

Jazz musicians refer to musical “vocabulary”, and just as you describe this chord, there are many spoken words spelled and pronounced the same but have completely different meanings which depend on their placement in a sentence and/or the other words nearby. But the word is spelled the same no matter how it is used. Likewise, same chord different “meaning”.

Thanks so much for the perfect explanation! I was confused over decades, but now I got the enlightenment 👏👍😃

Well I didn't know that. Thank you for the instruction. Love your work mate. Cheers.

This is eye opening! Thank you for sharing this knowledge!

What a great explanation! Thank you very much. Love your videos. Cheers.

1. Classical music also usually uses diminished chords in first inversion in order to avoid the tritone they put above the bass in “root” position so VII° looks like it is supposed to be a substitution for IIm, which is another premise for resolving it by step. 2. So you can ostensibly resolve IIm7b5 down a minor third to avoid playing a major third above the bass in a minor key, e. g. Dm7b5 Bø~B°7 Cm? Or resolve bVII9 down a minor third to avoid playing a minor third above the bass in a major key, e. g. Bb9 G7 C?

I’ve recently noticed that those chords are functioning differently but I couldn’t completely organise my thoughts about it. And now this video shows up just like a miracle. Thank you !

All of your 'Video's, are concise, and easily understood, even to non-musicians .Thank You

@larrymasterspowerbuildingc4477

4 ай бұрын

No they weren't. I understadn that there is a simple formula fot this and he made it more complicated than Chinese arithmetic in Norwegian witha thick stutter. I am more confused now than ever.

my friend, I love your humour, your channel, and your ethic-minded approach to brilliant clear descriptive renderings of questions ive always wane answers to and even ones i didn't know I didn't understand..... keep going brother loooooove your channel!!!!

Thank you for this very good explanation. This reminds me of the dominant 7th and the German Augmented 6th chords.

So does m7b5 have subdominant function and half diminished 7th have dominant function?

@MusicTheoryForGuitar

4 жыл бұрын

Yes.

@ooqbar

4 жыл бұрын

@@MusicTheoryForGuitar And likewise, f-a-c the so called "F major triad", has subdominant function in the key of C-major, while it has dominant function in the key of Bb-major, and it has tonic fuction in the key of F-major. Yet i do not expect anyone to "explain" why there should be three different names for one and the same chord.

@MusicTheoryForGuitar

4 жыл бұрын

@@ooqbar You are confusing cause and effect here.

@ooqbar

4 жыл бұрын

@@MusicTheoryForGuitar Cause: multiple functions for the same set of notes. Effect: multiple names i.e. "chords" reflecting the function of a given set of notes within a certain key. Hope that helps.

@MusicTheoryForGuitar

4 жыл бұрын

Multiple functions is a consequence of these chords being different. Not a cause. Of course it is possible for a chord to have different functions. But here you have two different chords. Hope this helps.

Very interesting, well organized and presented.

at first , i was surprised , then after watching the video , it makes sense... furthermore now it is clear to me where the name half-diminished comes from... thank you

Right at the end when you explained the resolutions, I understood everything.

Great lesson! Thank you so much!

Appreciate your honesty. And your style of teaching. And your accent. Rock on brudda ty

This is great! Thank you.

This is all very fascinating!! However, at the end it is in the application! ! No wonder there is so much confusion between jazz and classical!! 2 different worlds but same results!! Thanks for sharing!! 👍 👍

Thanks a lot! Very useful for a pianist as well

That's for this, I had no idea that there was a difference until now.

Great lesson. Thank you for sharing

you make theory fun dude, thanks for being an amazing teacher.

This is really really cool. Thank you sir!!!

Makes sense. Love your lessons

Just when I thought I wouldn't run into anymore enharmonics, I get this bombshell If this even counts as an enharmonic

Simply a technicality, the half-diminished chord can have different functions according to the key we’re in. Just like any other chord. No need for 2 different names.

@MusicTheoryForGuitar

4 жыл бұрын

I didn't invent either the names or the distinction.

@luissilva274

4 жыл бұрын

MusicTheoryForGuitar of course not, as many concepts in music theory, there are often several ways of analysing, which is the beauty of it! :) Nonetheless, thank you for a nice and clear explanation, as always!

@marcorighini6201

4 жыл бұрын

An alteration in chromatic armony where should go?i suppose it resolves a half tone up or down so if its a flat or a sharp give melody a chance to lead chords. Pre built cadence are just like cages

@aylbdrmadison1051

4 жыл бұрын

@Luís Mota : A technicality often serves a function.

@luissilva274

4 жыл бұрын

Aylbdr Madison not in this case. Whether calling it m7b5 or half-dim has no relevance to the function of the chord. The names are interchangeable.

Ciao Tommaso! I think we can see the main difference between these two chords when we expand them. While the m7b5 should maintain regular intervals as second grade of the major scale(except for the 5th, which of course we altered), the half-diminished should maintain the classic "locrian-sounding" intervals. Therefore I would expect the m7b5 to have a major 2 as an expansion, while I think the half-diminished should have a minor 2, following the intervals of a locrian scale. (I took the 2nd as an example, but it's also the case with the 4th and 6th) m7b5: R-2-b3-4-b5-6-b7 h.dim.:R-b2-b3-b4-b5-b6-b7 Did I explain myself well?🤣

@tommy4411

4 жыл бұрын

@@MyRackley you know, I was trying to formulate a hypothesis, I think the concept of expanding the chord is pretty good if we want to find any difference between one notation and the other.... Anyway if you want me to better understand your point of view, I'm here👍🏻😉

Thanks for explaining, this has been confusing me for a while.

Sorry, but only in this situation you are putting different names for different functions. It doesn’t make sense. They are the same chord. Dm7(b5) can have 2 functions. Simple like that. And the name half diminished comes from the laziness to correctly name the chord from VII.

@antoinesenecal9076

4 жыл бұрын

I disagree. Context matters, and technically speaking you could avoid a confusion by saying the right words. It's a little difference but it is true. For me it feels the same issue as when people use "C" instead of "B#" (in a C# key for example).

@ThiagoNunnes

4 жыл бұрын

Antoine Senecal One thing is when we talk about notes. Of course that, for example, in C sharp, the correct name of the major seven is B#. But once we talk about chords, it’s not possible only in this case we change the name. Another example, C7M when is I of its tune, and the function is tonic, cant be wrote differently of when is IV of G major. It doesn’t make sense

@niklas5396

4 жыл бұрын

Totally agree. I'm from Sweden, and here, there is no such thing as "half diminished". It's m7b5.

@hoolandone

Жыл бұрын

❤

@d.l.loonabide9981

6 ай бұрын

That's what I'm thinkin'. If a C major triad can be the tonic of C, the subdominant of F and the dominant of Bflat, is that same C triad three different chords? Oh, wait, it could also be a flat seven chord in a mixolydian composition. How many possible contexts could any chord have?

True story man! Im a jazz player and clasical at the same time.

Awesome. Really useful to know this

Great video! When I started learning music theory, I looked up on google for instructions on how harmonize the C scale, but the vii chord was always shown as a diminished chord instead of a half diminished. Do you know the reason why? And also when they add the 7th note, they name the chord not as half dim but as b57

@Merrillific

4 жыл бұрын

If it was harmonic minor, the 7th would be full diminished. So it's likely they skipped a step in the process without explaining that they raise the 7th in the minor scale in order to facilitate harmonic transition (chord changes; it turns the 5th into a dominant that resolves to the i). If that was a C scale, however, rather than Cm, then ... wrong. The 7th in a major key is half-dim, which is why I disagree, tentatively, with the ii in a minor key being a m7b5. Same with the origin of half-dim being dom 9th. Its origin is the 7th of a major scale, which came many years before people were playing 9ths, at least so far as I understand the history.

@nicogarcia7302

4 жыл бұрын

@@Merrillific Thanks for your reply mate, really helpful👌👌

Man, this is just enlightening. I am an amateur pop songwriter, and in some songs I use the Bm7b5 G7 Cmaj7 progression. It always felt quite not right labelling that chord Bm7b5 since it clearly doesnt have the same feel as usual (say in Bm7b5 E7 Am). I can see it all so clearly now, it was a B half diminished all along !

@joelstephenson8017

3 жыл бұрын

Wait, I thought the one resolving to the G was the flat 5, and the one resolving to the E was the dim?

Interesting but the "two" chords are still related diatonically. VII degree (acting as a dominant) in a major key, and than becomes II of the relative minor. Furthermore, there're a lot of examples in classical music where the chord is used as a second degree in a minor key (Mozart's Symphony n°40 or Bach's prelude n°10 from The well tempered clavier). So your distinction between its use in jazz and in classical music at the end doesn't seem accurate to me.

@MusicTheoryForGuitar

4 жыл бұрын

"Statistically speaking" 6:57. Both chords are used in both styles of music, but m7b5 are more common in Jazz and half-dim are more common in classical. "More common" =/= "exclusive". I say as much in the video.

@ModernGuitar

4 жыл бұрын

@@MusicTheoryForGuitar I missed the "statistically speaking" :) I don't know the stats, but the half-diminished is pretty common in jazz as a dominant function as well.

@commentfreely5443

4 жыл бұрын

i like to defeat theory by doing the opposite

@MrAdamNTProtester

4 жыл бұрын

​@@MusicTheoryForGuitar YOU are 100% correct- I heard that the 1st time... people have a hard time leaving the terra forma they have held onto from their birth as a musician... and yet we all must leave the womb to LIVE and we all must DIE to truly be born again... so you are 100% correct- the tendency of the THING = the thing... and the exceptions serve to PROVE the rule... besides the ingeniousness of Mozart was TOTALLY his ambiguity making sad have a joyous thread & the joyous touched by pathos... so using him as an example is just totally disingenuous as far as Papa Bach goes well just ask Handle Mozart & Beethoven where THEY LEARNED THEIR MUSIC THEORY... so totally agree with you on this & consider that comment by Modern guitar to be at best- being obtuse for the sake of being obtuse & at worst...well: TROLLLLLLLLL ALERT! But I guess since those are the SAME thing only with different motives intents & manifestations we should not distinguish them- huh- I am sure on that we will ALL agree!!! One final thought is an argument from analogy: In the Law: You walk into a room a dude is standing over the dead body of your GF & he has a knife in his hand... Scenario 1: The dude had walked into the room just before you & discovered a knife in your GF & bent down to see if he could render assistance & when you walked in the room he was startled and stood up thus removing the knife from your GF body- he tells you what happened & tells you to call an ambulance & the police immediately while he continues to try & stop the bleeding... Scenario 2: The dude was in an argument with your GF she had a knife in her hand because she was going to the front foyer to carve a pumpkin for halloween in her anger & frustration she turned away quickly & slipped, fell with the knife penetrating her body... dude was again rendering assistance & being terrified when you walked in as how it looked pulled the knife out of the body & ran out the back door worried you wouldn't understand & believe him & he would get convicted of murdering your GF even though it was totally an accident... Scenario 3: The dude didn't like how your GF was breaking up with him as she was 2 timing behind your back & so he killed your GF in a rage & when you walked in he came at you with the knife to get rid of the witness- you were able to overcome him & call the police to have him arrested... In Scenario 1: 75% of the time the dude will be found innocent & the police will search for the real killer... In Scenario 2: more than 50% of the time dude will get the Death Penalty even though he is totally innocent like the guy above who only gets the Death Penalty despite being totally innocent 25% of the time... In Scenario 3: 99% of the time dude gets the Death Penalty but in 1% of cases he says you killed her & hence YOU get the Death Penalty instead of him because his lawyer is real good & all the evidence of her infidelity is used to paint you as the angry cucked lover who killed her in a rage maybe you have been arrested for domestic violence before [maybe even innocent then too!] & that you overcame him when HE walked in the room & YOU called the police & LIED... So in all 3 scenario's the SAME THING: You walk into a room a dude is standing over the dead body of your GF & he has a knife in his hand... But in all 3 cases what happened BEFORE & AFTER provides you with the TRUTH- a canonical whole... and yet in what scenario is the outcome ABSOLUTE & PRE Determined = NONE AND that IS where the creativity & the real distinction comes in for Classical is performed from an arrangement that is PRE set in advance for the whole orchestra, chamber players, chorus, soloists etc who perform FAITHFULLY whereas Jazz is a free floating form full of improvisation that still requires some set rules type framework to work within yet even so those rules are sometimes broken if a master player can make it all add up... and LIVE the same song is almost never exactly the SAME! This should PROVE to ba an argument from analogy that has 100% fidelity with the concept being taught in the above video... IF anyone still doesn't understand the video & it's 100% ALL CORRECTNESS now... then maybe music mathematics law & anything else that requires a capacity for the sublime, logic & creativity is not for you & you should sell your instrument & become a porn star... anyone- even YOU can master THAT- Modern [aka moronic] Guitar! My NAME is Liam Modern Guitar: YOU can call me SIR! you are welcome! EDIT- PS I am 100% certain that if anyone in this comment section was the dude in the above scenario's or even the guy with the GF in the 1% Scenario #3... all of a sudden like a bolt of lightning striking Paul on the road to Damascus SHAZAM... they understand- like INSTANT SOUP!

@bradcawyer7170

3 жыл бұрын

@@MusicTheoryForGuitar What is the source for these statistics? In common practice (classical) writing, this chord when built on the 2nd scale degree most often moves to a V chord (i.e. take the m7/b5 function).

Context is everything!!

I'm not sure I will ever get to a level of playing where I will actually use any of this stuff but I love watching your videos for the sheer beauty of the theory. Great work, man. Thank you so much.

@MusicTheoryForGuitar

4 жыл бұрын

Don't sell yourself short - once you strip out all the funny names, music theory is not so hard. Have a look at this so you can start to use a few of these chords: kzread.info/dash/bejne/rJmot6WdlNjXgbw.html

@aylbdrmadison1051

4 жыл бұрын

@fivetimesyo : It's easy to become overwhelmed if you try to digest too much all at once. Take your time and find something that you feel you are close to grasping, then focus on fully grasping that concept before moving on. The fun is in the journey of learning new things. No need to get bogged down in what you don't know yet. We all go at a different pace, and learn things better in slightly different ways. It's an adventure, have fun with it. ^-^

@aylbdrmadison1051

4 жыл бұрын

@MusicTheoryForGuitar : The very first thing I learned in music theory class were tetra chords. Then I was taught that 2 tetra chords = one scale. So I immediately stripped out the funny name "tetra chord". But it's still there in my memory and has even served a function once or twice. I also learned all 7 positions of the Major scale, and played them so much by themselves, using the root note that happened to be on the low E string, that I learned the sound of the modes before learning that they were actually modes. Basically stripping out the modes funny names unintentionally.

Like the keys of CM and Am they are _enharmonic._ You can take any chord and move the root to any other note in that chord and rename it (the same with scales, this is how we get modes). An Am7 chord can become a CM6 chord, even though they are the same exact notes: Am7 is A, C, E, and G and CM6 is C, E, G, and A. The difference is CM6 is not used in the same way an Am7 is used. As Tommaso demonstrates, it depends on the context what the function of the chord is in a given situation.

@davidste60

4 жыл бұрын

Different voicings sound different though e.g. your example Am7 and CM6. But the chords in this video sound exactly the same because they literally are exactly the same, if they are in the same octave of course. A chord is a group of notes, half-diminshed and m7b5 are the same chords.

4 жыл бұрын

Not true. Am7 has root note A, Cm6 has C. They are different.

I see the the half-diminished seventh chord as having what I call "Dominant Seventh Below" function. For example, in the key of C minor the Fm chord (iv) is the dominant below (subdominant), and being minor, is built from the top down as C-Ab-F. Fm's seventh below is D, and this forms the chord C-Ab-F-D, the half-diminished seventh. This is contrasted with the "Dominant Seventh Above", which would be plain old G7 (V7) in C minor. In any key iv and V are reciprocals about the determinant so the half-diminished seventh chord is the reciprocal, or so-called negative harmony, of the dominant seventh chord. The correct fundamental roots of 4 and 5 are also symmetrical about the generating tone. It's used this way in a lot of cases too, where it may be called the "Money Chord", so what I am talking it's not just a purely theoretical construct. I use the functions a lot in my own music. Thinking this way also opens the door for subdominant leaning major and minor tonality, think "Harmonic Major", rather than the historically dominant leaning modes of western classical music.

How or where can I learn classical notation for inversions and bass?

@Merrillific

4 жыл бұрын

Google them. They aren't difficult.

Tomaz, u rock! Thnx brother ❤ u r one of the best.

Thank you brother

Very much thank you for all the music theory video

you are great to me .....i hope you inspire me more..

Naming/labeling things is the heart of music theory. It helps us to recognize structures and communicate ideas more clearly. I have no problem giving a new name to any structure that functions in an independent way. Common practice music theory is full of renamed structures, including minor/major keys and triad inversions. The precedent is in place to name functions rather than to give only one name to a group of notes. So, if one disagrees with the concept of gregarious naming, they would be in opposition to the approach long since established in western music theory. Also, one of the best parts of being a music theorist is that we get to name things. This often happens years or decades after the music is originally written. Example...Scriabin did not label any Mystic Chords. Music historian A. Hull coined that term 6 years after "Prometheus: the Poem of Fire" debuted. Thank you for the thought provoking content.

Great lecture!

Thx for bring this out. In my opinion, one should concern the voice leading not from the name of chord nor classical nor jazz, but it’s functional use in the key. A Dm7b5 can thus be used for modulation.

@Merrillific

4 жыл бұрын

My thoughts exactly, except more from a half-dim7 perspective.

2:30 can anyone explain (or better, link a video) to why the altered minor chord functions like a II chord?

Thank you. I'm wondering, What did you base on the assumption that the half diminished chord derives from the Bb9 and that the diminished 7th chord derives from Bb7b9? Can you add a link to an article or something? Thanks!

Nice video, thanks.

I love your videos and always either learn something or have parts of my own knowledge reaffirmed. I view you as a master of the material that you present. So please understand I don't disagree with you on the theory or your presentation of it. However, sometimes in practical application, whether performing these chords in someone else's charts or writing with them in my own, I have had to learn to think of these chord names as synonyms to either play the correct chord pitches expected of me or to have others play the correct chord pitches I have written, even if the naming convention is incorrect. I long ago found this necessary because there are so many chord types and naming conventions, along with multiple ways to write symbols for those chords that my brain just needed simplification to be able to ”grab” the correct group of pitches at the right time during performance. That was the only way I was able to carry out my job playing guitar on big band jazz charts, with the thousands of chord and voicing choices. My brain just seems to remember certain types of naming convention over others. Even if, theoretically, the naming I sometimes use is incorrect, my ears are just as happy to hear the correct pitches. Thanks for your knowledge and hard work!

I came here a little skeptic but maaaan, this makes so much sense. In school some teachers used to say "Bb7 (or Bb9) with omited generator" and I always thought "Come on, just say m7b5", but now it makes sense. It was just to demonstrate where it came from without actually saying it. Don't know if that makes sense to anyone but it does to me :)

How does your chord class work? Do you send pre-recorded videos everymonth?

@MusicTheoryForGuitar

4 жыл бұрын

Please direct all course questions to tommaso@musictheoryforguitar.com

Its an arnold schoenberg. Story In his harmony book he make resolve si re fa la chord to mi minor chord

Question. If your root is on the low E, what would be the “typical” or “most common” way to fret a m7b5 ?

@musicmuncher6689

4 жыл бұрын

From low to high, I would use this: 0-x-5-3-3-0. There are other ways but some don't sound good.

@mickeyrube6623

4 жыл бұрын

0-1-0-0-3-0 0-5-5-3-5-3 0-7-x-7-8-6 0-7-8-7-8-10 0-10-8-7-x-x 0-10-8-9-8-10 And my favorite: 0-13-0-0-11-0

I have a feeling that naming the chord isn't important. The name really doesn't tell me if it is ii chord in minor key with subdominant function or vii chord in major key with dominant function. That's clearly the problem of context, but that's not the reason why I should name the chord differently. I'd rather use m7/b5 symbol in any context simply because it instantly says which tones there are.

@MusicTheoryForGuitar

4 жыл бұрын

... the name tells you exactly that. It's in the video.

Nice! But I wonder... How many markers and whipers do you go through anually?

New subscriber here, and i must say I love the channel! Now, isn't this the situation with the multiple possible names for altered chords in general, and isn't the best possible name the one that expresses the correct musical context of the chord?

Just curious if this distinction would make any difference if playing with just rather than equal tempered intonation.

@MusicTheoryForGuitar

4 жыл бұрын

If you have only 12 notes, the situation is the same as equal temperament. If you have enough more notes available, then the notes in these chords are actually different in pitch.

I keep forgetting the explanation, and come back every year to watch this video again. I hope that's the last time. Lol.

You say that dm7b5 differs from dhalf-diminished seventh. I am unconvinced. What do you think of another designation of the same 4 notes, fm6? Does that also differ from the other two chords, even though it's spelled the same?

Hi, I know your course is not a book but do you have a book that has the type of information you give in your videos? I really like your presentation and content. I'm a bass player/composer and use a six string bass. Thanks

@MusicTheoryForGuitar

4 жыл бұрын

Sorry, I don't. There is a reason why I decided on a video course - it's because I can teach and explain in a better way on video than through a book. BTW, I have a few 6-string bass players among my students, and once I taught a person with a monster 8-string bass - that was fun!

Thank you for your channel, and thank you for the spanish version. It may be an automatic translation, but just in case, I think "semi diminuido" is better than "medio disminuido".

D half-dim has same notes as Fm6. Could you comment on difference (if any) between them? Thx

Can a m7b5 resolve up a half step? For that matter, do we name any other chords based on the direction they resolve? I've barely touched diminished chords so I admit my knowledge is a bit lacking here.

@MusicTheoryForGuitar

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, we name other chords differently. For instance German Augmented 6th chords are enharmonic to a dominant 7, but we call them differently because they resolve differently. And we decide what is the root of a diminished 7th chord based on what chord they resolve to.

Ok so if I got this right, then the Ab tone in the half-diminished D chord is diatonic to the scale (of, e.g., Eb major in your example), whereas the Ab tone in the Dm7/b5 chord is not (as in your example we would be in C major). Correct?

@musicmuncher6689

4 жыл бұрын

That's a great comment, the half-diminished chord is really part of the diatonic major scale, at the 7th degree.

@tommy4411

4 жыл бұрын

@@musicmuncher6689 yeah of course. I think we can see the main difference between these two chords when we expand them. While the m7b5 should maintain regular intervals as second grade of the major scale(except for the 5th, which of course we altered), the half-diminished should maintain the classic "locrian-sounding" intervals. Therefore I would expect the m7b5 to have a major 2 as an expansion, while I think the half-diminished should have a minor 2, following the intervals of a locrian scale. (I took the second as an example, but it is also the case with the 4th and 6th) m7b5: R-2-b3-4-b5-6-b7 h.dim.:R-b2-b3-b4-b5-b6-b7 Did I explain myself well?🤣

I understand why I’d use the altered minor (dm7b5) to do a ii-V type motion. But why would I use an incomplete dominant (d half-diminished) instead of just saying Bb9-Eb? Looks to me in this situation like basically d half diminished-Eb is to paint a c minor tonality by saying ii-III instead of choosing to tonicize Eb by saying V-I? Does anybody understand what I’m saying? I feel like I’m taking crazy pills over here!

@freeman5885

3 жыл бұрын

Or is it simpler to say that when it’s in the ii position it’s an altered minor (m7b5) and when it’s in the vii position it’s an incomplete dominant (half-dim7)? Is that the same thing I just said and is it a reasonable way to comprehend this?

Ironic I always recognized half diminished as rising by half step to tonic by means of dominant harmony, and recognized the m7b5 as a chromatic alteration of a minor chord that would resolve as an imperfect cadence in any harmonic resolution whether by 5th or other chordal movement, I never recommended my students to have a distinction. Yes it is enharmonic but only one exists naturally in a key center. Sensible and effective. Whether someone wants to argue about modal substitution or chromatic alteration, the fewer steps to identify harmonic movement and note choices the better, this really is a more clear path. Even if there are examples of a ii minor being altered in baroque harmony it is more common to be used as a half diminished modulation to a new key a half step above in classical harmony, and less likely to be a chromatic substitution in a more static chord movement in jazz standards. People will still argue and dislike the channel, but this should be easier to understand and recognize while reading notation or tab. So give the man his due!

Monk was thinking about this chord as a Fm6 as all the swing era before him. Jazz started to call it D half-diminished under the influence of be-bop guys studying classical music.

I think nomenclature can be important to clarify certain distinctions. That's why we have double sharps or flats in certain contexts. I still don't agree with calling a Dm7b5 on a Cm context because the Ab is a diatonic degree, so it's a diminished chord on its nature and not a b5. If it appears on a C context it's obviously a m7b5 chord. By the way, does anyone know what the half refers to on a half-diminished chord? If anything we could call it diminished minor 7. And a °7 would be a diminished major 6 by enharmony (or a diminished diminished 7, if wanted to be more accurate).

@maxxiong

3 жыл бұрын

Dm7b5 is from jazz notation - take a Dm7 chord, and alter it by flattening the fifth. This is different from roman numeral analysis rules where it would just be ii7 or iio/7. BTW: I'm guess it's half-diminished because fully diminished has d5 and d7, and half-diminished only has d5.

Isn't this just like saying C major is a IV in G and a V in F ? I mean at this point the naming thing is just part of the jumbled up history of theory .

harmonization of major scale : m7b5 is on step VII leading to I , harmonization of minor m7b5 is on II leading to I through a Dom V chord . Both resolve different . in major as true dominant substitute, in minor it resolves to secondary dominant leading to I. Did I get it? don´t know.

Great video! I really appreciate your more in-depth explanation of issues like these. At 5:14 you said “B7 with a b9”. I think you meant Bb7 with a b9. Could the small circle symbol, (o), used to designate diminished, also possibly originate from being a figured bass number, with (o) referring to the root and therefore (o) with the line crossed through it meaning no root?

@MusicTheoryForGuitar

2 жыл бұрын

the little circle is a zero (yes, it's figured bass), and it's meant to indicate "no root". The diminished chord was conceptualized as "dominant b9 with no root". The circle with the line is a later notation (20th century as far as I know) to indicate 'half diminished' (the line meant to 'divide in two' the symbol)

@johnharringtonguitar6559

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for your response! I enjoy investigating these mostly overlooked issues. The min7 is halfway between the maj7 and bb7. I’ve also noticed that the forward slash through numerals in figured bass means to lower the pitch by a semi-tone. I’m fascinated with how in depth figured bass actually is as it shows up in sheet music from the Baroque period .

@MusicTheoryForGuitar

2 жыл бұрын

Mmmh, the slash (IIRC) indicates when a note is raised, not lowered. Or at least that's the way I remember it being used in Bach's book (CPE, not JS). I may be wrong though.

How do the two above chords relate to a m6 chord? D F Ab C is also Fm6.

Actually I tend to use the diminished chord in jazz a bit as tritone substitution, so a 251 that isn’t Dm7, G7 C but Dm7, Db0,C . I’ve seen that quite a bit in John Mehegans books from the 60s. It voice leads a bit easier.

I like the approach... The only thing is that the vii degree of the major (or ii degree of minor) where the m7b5 stems from is a diminished triad so to say it doesn't come from a diminished chord doesn't sit. As mentioned by someone else the the m7b5 has a sub Dom function whereas half dim has a Dom function. That would mean (generally) in a minor setting you're using a m7b5 whereas in a major key you're using a half diminished?

Really interesting. So many times I have encountered people insisting that inversions of different chords with the same notes(but different root notes), are the same chord. Like the example given by @Aylbdr Madison in the comments about Cmaj6 and Amin7, they function differently, despite having the same notes. You have expanded that idea to show how chords with the same notes AND the same root note function differently. Keeping this in mind, how would you go about naming the chord with notes C Eb G#? While people do mention that it is simply an inversion of Ab major, and I agree that C Augmented Minor is wrong, as it implies a major third, I am not sold on it simply being called Ab Major. If I play it as a chromatic alteration to Cminor, when it is the I chord (Gm -> Cm -> Cm#5 -> Cm). I think it should have a name with C at the root right?

So I'm confused. Harmonizing a major scale in diatonic 7th chords produces a m7b5 for chord vii. How does this fit with the ideas in your video? I've wondered about the use of the that vii chord for some time.

@Merrillific

4 жыл бұрын

Actually it produces a half-dim 7th. A m7b5 would start from a m7 and then, um, flat the fifth. Sorry if that seems pedantic, but as he says in the video, one is altered and one isn't.

@josephwoodley4651

4 жыл бұрын

@@Merrillific Sorry. Could you explain why it's altered. If you're referring to the b5, surely that would only be altered if it was resolving to major. Eg: Dm7b5 G7 C Major. Putting it another way. If it's the ii chord in C minor (Dmin7b5) where's the altered note. If it's the vii chord in Eb major (half diminished) where is the altered note.

You could say that the words minute and minute are the same because they have the same letters, but one means 60 seconds and the other means very small. It's all in the context of the sentence in which they are used for the meaning to come out.

Ok, the difference is the context. Great stuff! Appreciate it

Good information, thanks. Although I personally I do prefer the Barry Harris/ Pat Martino perspectives that the Dominant chords come from the Diminished chord and not the other way around.

Nice. And it confirms what I always thought: in the end we all depend on the guy at the Bass, Mate...

Bravo!!!

What if you just have the notes B D F A and no musical context? Is there a default way that is best to call this group of notes?

@MusicTheoryForGuitar

4 жыл бұрын

What if you have no musical context and the notes E C A G. It's a C6 or an Am7?

@enterrupt

4 жыл бұрын

@@MusicTheoryForGuitar A good reminder to me that without context, such distinction can not be made.

@rchristian3357

3 жыл бұрын

MusicTheoryForGuitar That is not a valid argument. C6 was not a term used in Classical music. Nor is a C69, Cadd9, Csus2. These are all Jazz terms. So is m7b5. It’s the same chord with a different name. I also agree with a previous poster who says it is exceedingly rare to see vii half dim go to the tonic major. I’ve enjoyed most of your videos but you should take this one down. Why make things more complicated than they really are?

What is the difference between Bm7/b5 and Dm6 in the 4th inversion?

@MusicTheoryForGuitar

4 жыл бұрын

There is no 4th inversion ;)

@yinchenxu5249

4 жыл бұрын

MusicTheoryForGuitar i think he means Dm6 and the 3rd inversion of Bm7b5?

@chocomalk

4 жыл бұрын

@@yinchenxu5249 haha yeah my terminology sucks

@chocomalk

4 жыл бұрын

@@MusicTheoryForGuitar okay you got me on a technicality only lol

@MusicTheoryForGuitar

4 жыл бұрын

Well, if you meant the 3rd inversion of Dm6... it's still a different chord. Dm6 is a stable chord with an added dissonance. The m6 chord also tend to function as a tonic chord (in context).

Very good. Can you do one about #9 vs. b10? i.e. #9 is an altered dominant and b10 (Hendrix chord) is from the blues scale.

@aylbdrmadison1051

4 жыл бұрын

I believe he did do that one already, although I do not remember the name of the video. But I believe it was in the last few months or so.

@wayneknazek7362

4 жыл бұрын

The "Hendrix" chord is in the key of E, right? So it would be a #9. Not a b10. No bs in E. Plus we talk about 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, not 10ths, 12ths or 14ths. So you have an E7#9. Note that the Dom7#9 chord is used in a lot of music besides Rock, and not only in 7th position. E7#9 is powerful in Rock and Blues because you can use both E strings, making it a really full "open" chord. But even in Rock and Blues, it's used oi different positions as an inside chord. Listen to Cream's version of Outside Woman's Blues. The main hook is an E7#9. But the entire turn around is a B7#9. You hear it in many Santana tunes as well.

@dibblethwaite

4 жыл бұрын

​@@wayneknazek7362 It's not in any specific key, nor is it specific to the guitar. It's a chord that arises from using a minor blues scale over of a dominant seventh chord or - to be really correct - a tonic flattened seventh chord since it doesn't have a dominant function in blues. It can be only be a #9 if the E blues scale, for example, goes E Fx A A# B D which, to me, is clearly ludicrous. You may disagree. As for only using odd numbers, presumably because chords are built in thirds I'd say this. With blues we're talking about something from outside the western tradition and it's pushing traditional nomenclature a bit to name it sensibly so you have to be a bit creative. There is a the precedent of 6th chords of course so it's not too much of a leap. Just consider it to be an added note rather than a tertiary extension. Of course I'm nit-picking and probably in a minority with my opinion on this but the m7b5 vs half diminished distinction is equally nit-picky which is why I commented. Back in the 70s iI used to see b10 written as a chord symbol fairly regularly but it's mostly fallen out of use now. Due to the Berklee influence, I think. It's more logical and I miss it.

Ok. I might sound simplistic, but I do not see any use in this distinction. Sure, it's like saying that in a progression that's only C and Am7 is actually C and C/A. To me I prefer the idea of they being the same chord (since sound-wise they are) and having more than one function (like a lot of chords also do). It seems like a distinction just for the sake of a distinction.