It`s a kind of subjective thing, but for me, Iron Butterfly with "In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida" is the essence of what heavy metal would become. That iconic, heavy signature riff, the menacing vocals, the screaming guitar and drum solo are all pure metal in an early form. It`s 17 minutes of music I never get tired of. Have to pick up Martin`s book.

@angelomicciche3044

Жыл бұрын

Also put to good effect in Michael Mann’s Hannibal Lektor (sic) film, Manhunter.

@vincenzonapoles4371

Жыл бұрын

I just bought the book. It's $14 on Amazon right now.

@domielakrabi3276

Жыл бұрын

The book is a great read! I've learned a lot from it.

@jimmycampbell78

Жыл бұрын

For me its “Born to be Wild” by Steppenwolf. That to me is the first metal tinged hard rock song. It is the look of the band, the biker rock as Pete mentioned, and also the heavy riffing and the attitude. That song would be the earliest expression of a Metal attitude to me, and heavy metal is mentioned in the lyrics. Also it was 1968 like Iron Butterfly. My only thing with Iron Butterfly and your shout is that they sound so 1960s; to me very rooted still in psych and blues. Steppenwolf, even if that song was a one off, are heading toward where Sabbath are going to be in a few years time and eventually where Judas Priest will be, and you have metal.

@jeffreyrobinson9120

Жыл бұрын

@@jimmycampbell78 All great points, and "Born To Be Wild" is another one of those songs I never get tired of hearing - at least the Steppenwolf version is.

This was the era in which I had just graduated middle school and was "discovering" music. Someone about 5 years older then myself (who later did a tour in Vietnam, and lived to tell the stories) turned me on to the Easy Rider soundtrack, along with Iron Butterfly and Steppenwolf, among others. My innocence started turning into rebellious fervor. In my eyes, this was one of the best videos you have done. As good as heavy metal had developed, I go back to this time continuously.

Population II by Randy Holden is a hidden gem. Getting good psych, spacy, even a cream vibe too. A must listen.

@Mike-aka747

Жыл бұрын

1970, bro.

Amazing discussion from Pardo and Poppof. Another one. Each week It got better. Just great and mandatory for every heavy music lover.

2 Big influencers to what would become heavy metal guitar are Link Wray & Dick Dale. Link for distortion and Dick for tremolo picking. Rumble and Miserlou. Honorable mention to The Astronauts' track Baja. The surf bands should not be forgotten when talking about this topic.

Another great topic! Some other early heavy songs are: Revolution and Helter Skelter by the Beatles and 21st Century Schizoid Man by King Crimson!

@rickleblanc8900

Жыл бұрын

Yep, King Crimson definitely stood out with that song, a masterpiece. Very heavy song but also proggy at the same time, so unique. Nothing else sounded like that.

I think you can even go back as far as Gustav Holst Mars The Bringer of War of 1918. You can hear so much of the classic later chugging heavy metal rhythm in that song.

Love the channel and all you do but your chats with Martin always my favourite! Could listen to you two talking about music all day and this was a really fun and great topic!

5. The Kinks 4. Cream 3. Grand Funk Railroad 2. Jimi Hendrix Experience 1. The Who

@garytibbs4196

Жыл бұрын

Yard birds too

I love that The Kinks are getting their due. Always thought they were far underrated for what they contributed.

@treff9226

Жыл бұрын

The Kinks are loved by many - they should be loved by EVERYONE! It's been said that they're too British for many music fans, with Ray's genius songwriting that is heavily geared towards observation of British folks and their culture losing its significance over here in the states. I don't know, I feel like great music is great music, and The Kinks have a wealth of supreme tuneage! Just picked up their Misfits album. Cheers and great mention.

@markc5771

Жыл бұрын

@@treff9226 That's a FANTASTIC album. It's hard to pick a favorite from them so I go by era's really. I think Misfits, in my opinion, is their best album from their AOR days

@treff9226

Жыл бұрын

@@markc5771 yeah, Mark, looking forward to playing it....on a loop! The Kinks are undervalued, no doubt, but I absolutely love the fact that Waterloo Sunset has been ranked MANY times as THE most beautiful rock song of all time! I sure light up whenever I play or hear it! I have a deep love of Give The People What They Want, for later day albums. Really hate the whole Ray vs Dave thing, really ugly, c'mon, it's your brother for crying out loud😭😭😭 be well!

Great topic guys!! Being 14 in 1970, you guys named the bands that we thought where the heavy duty bands of the day. Great pics!!

Ritchie blackmore's guitar solo in I am so glad from the first Deep Purple MK 1 album was heavier than anything at that time.

@classicalgeek6753

Жыл бұрын

There are couple more songs from DP MK1 which were just as heavy.

@kanchanbasu8363

Жыл бұрын

Don't forget Jon Lord's Organ.That was a key part of that sound.

@opethfan7346

Жыл бұрын

As a heavy rock fan,I find Mark I to be surprisingly underrated.

@grimtraveller7923

Жыл бұрын

@@classicalgeek6753 Such as "Mandrake Root."

@grimtraveller7923

Жыл бұрын

@@opethfan7346 I agree. The Mark 1 are an important piece of heavy metal's evolution. I think they are underrated simply because Mark 2 are so mega.

I wish this was a podcast so I had more time to listen to all Pete and Martin's conversations.

@bubbadagger

Жыл бұрын

Me too

@konstantinov

Жыл бұрын

Why can't you just fire it up and simply listen to the audio? Not much honestly gained from the visual.

I can't believe that the Yardbirds were not mentioned, but more for a lot of their songs : "Train Kept a Rolling", "Shapes of Things", "Maserati GT", "I'm a Man", etc. The seeds of Cream, the Jeff Beck Group, & Led Zeppelin start w/the Yardbirds.

@grimtraveller7923

Жыл бұрын

@Eric Dinse This is certainly the view of the 1977 New Musical express encyclopedia of rock, when it comes to the Yardbirds. The Yardbirds were getting pretty heavy and it was while touring with them that Jimmy Page could see areas of the market opening up that could be exploited by a band that dabbled in heavy rock ~ among other things.

I'm surprised Mr. Pardo didn't include this one: Yardbirds-"Think about it", 1967 Little Games album. A furious, blistering Zep level guitar solo br Jimmy Page.

@edwardcoit9748

Жыл бұрын

And a good Aerosmith cover

In no specific order: Jimi Hendrix Experience, Cream, The Who, Blue Cheer and Stooges (although they only started when some of the "big four" were already around). btw "Who Invented Heavy Metal" - a great book, a must read, I've learned a lot from it.

Atomic Rooster was one for me. A combination of heavy metal / prog rock IMHO.

@stevenhanson1454

4 ай бұрын

Ted Nugent famously said you can't have keyboards on heavy rock but Vincent Crane proved that wrong with "Breakthrough". They had a string of great albums. "Winter" was a slow song but lyrically really SAD. Their was doom & gloom and loud.

This is the discussion I wanted to hear…..there WERE other bands back then playing heavy or hard rock music

John Kay is way underrated as a singer. His voice was made for rock

@treff9226

Жыл бұрын

A helluva voice - Kay should always be mentioned with the great rock singers! His voice has that great command and depth to it, attitude and ballsy swagger! Came late to the Steppenwolf party, thought they were just a two hit wonder......WRONG! Steppenwolf has all kinds of stellar songs!

@marvinmartin3438

Жыл бұрын

Kay had the ultimate raunchy blues rock voice. Just sayin

@treff9226

Жыл бұрын

@@marvinmartin3438 Yessir! That voice alone, could kick some ass, Kay didn't even have to "step in the ring" as he already won the fight the moment he opened his mouth!🎤🎤🎤!

Nice episode. Thx. Martin / PETE 👍💯

Just bought Martin’s book for my Kindle! Can’t wait to dig in! ❤

When I got into this music in the late seventies, here in the UK we called this music 'heavy rock', we never used the term heavy metal..

@davidmostly8410

Жыл бұрын

we sure did

@mikepilling6060

Жыл бұрын

Same as me I am from the UK as well. Never heard anything called heavy metal. I am from the same era as you Pete Greenfield

@aidenswords5809

Жыл бұрын

I heard thw term heavt metal in about 1979,must have originated b4 then

Court of the Crimson King by King Crimson. Troggs (Wild Thing), Rolling Stones (Satanism), Beatles (Helter Skelter) and Kingsmen (Louie Louie). The Doors (organ, singing, attitude), especially on Break On Through. And joking: Hawkwind? A great protometal bass player and a (sometimes) naked lady dancing on stage ... 🤔

Did you mention "Sir Lord Baltimore". Ok, the first album, Kingdom come, didn't arrive until 1970 but the group formed back in 1967. Shoud Absolutly be mentioned as one of the fathers of heavymetal.

@Cornelius798

Жыл бұрын

Nice!

@seaoftranquilityprog

Жыл бұрын

Stay tuned for next week!

The Who on "Live at Leeds" were a proto-metal band. They generated a lot of aggression, rage and power on that live recording.

Part of the riff in N.I B. is from Cream´s Sunshine of your love.

A great conversation, I love this theme because you can find influences all over the place. Even in The Beatles in songs like Helter Skelter. A real interresting topic and your knowledge is just amazing. Love your shows.

Using the word ’heavy’ back in the 60’s hippie era was mainly used to convey the thought that something was philosophically important. Today we may use the word ’deep’ for the same purpose. Of course they may have been going for dual meanings

@BassGoBomb

Жыл бұрын

"Wow,, that's heavy, man." .. tokes

@grimtraveller7923

Жыл бұрын

That is true, but when applied to music, it was not anything to do with philosophy or depth, it was to do with sound. Mainly electric guitar, bass and on occasion, organ and definitely drums. Sonic assault. Diana Ross and the Supremes were not heavy. Donovan, though deep and psychedelic, was not heavy. The Rolling Stones were not regarded as heavy.

One thing that kinda goes along with this.. I don't think you mentioned. Is the blossoming of the garage bands.. Beatles put the desired fame in it, but the Stones, Grandfunk, Steppinwolf, Humble Pie.. it was about simplicity in the chords - tri and two tone's made it so the beginner could produce.. well enough that it groomed tons of musicians for the future. Fed the guitar hero ideal.. rolling into the Satriani, Van Halen performers. Really loved this episode guys- well done. And I agree nearly 100%... I was there too- thanks.

A band that almost never gets mentioned is ‘High Tide’. Their 1969 album ‘Sea Shanties’ is possibly the heaviest albums of the 60s.

Good to see The Stooges and Cream mentioned here. Such great bands!

Blue Cheer pioneered the overdriven feedback guitars. unlike the Kinks, Blue Cheer used that sound consistently

@MerseYattle

Жыл бұрын

doctor please is pretty much a todays young band stoner/doom metal track, its incredible

@ScottyKirk1

Жыл бұрын

Yes! I agree completely. So heavy for the time. I remember some interview with Geddy Lee talking about a show he saw with Blue Cheer as a kid and how effing loud they were in concert. That heavy over driven sound that literally shakes the amps.

@uncleremus64

Жыл бұрын

Yes, Blue Cheer's performance at Monterey Pop in June 1967 had profound influence on the genre.

I definitely think the Jeff Beck Group and Vanilla Fudge should be mentioned.

@rickleblanc8900

Жыл бұрын

I consider them more as heavy blues rather than any indication of anything heavy metal related

Interesting discussion. I think Hendrix started ‘heavy’ guitar based music and was a huge influence on the bands that followed. Also I think Free’s Tons of Sobs and Jeff Beck Group’s Truth are relevant to this topic.Both did the heavy blues thing before Led Zeppelin and don’t always get the credit they deserve…Andy Fraser was a phenomenal young bass player.

@ronbo11

Жыл бұрын

Jeff Beck was also an early feedback pioneer when he was a member of the Yardbirds before the Jimireleasd his debut album. Hendrix searched him out to talk over some of their styles and tricks.

@b.g.5869

Жыл бұрын

The earliest 'heavy' guitar sound was "You Really Got Me" by The Kinks, way back in '64, though they didn't really pursue or further develop that sound. Hendrix was a big part of the equation for sure, but I don't think true metal arrived fully formed until Sabbath.

@wolf1977

Жыл бұрын

@@ronbo11 I'm a HUGE Hendrix fan - can remember reading that Hendrix claimed he'd only ever heard a single track/"Shapes Of Things" by Beck (at least initially): “I only heard one record by him, ‘Shapes of Things,’ and I really dug it. I just listened to it, and I liked it. You’ve got to dig everything and then get your own ideas. Too much digging and not enough doing will set you spinning.” And Beck on first hearing Jimi (playing his cover of "Like A Rolling Stone"): "Well, I used to be a guitarist"...Then later on Jimi would come watch the Jeff Beck Group at NY's The Scene in '68 & even 'sitting in' (when Beck would play bass). What a time that must've been for music!

@ScottyKirk1

Жыл бұрын

@@b.g.5869 The Who would be on any list of HEAVY music. Entwistle's bass is the definition of thunderous and Pete's playing is off the charts.

@b.g.5869

Жыл бұрын

@@ScottyKirk1 Heavy? Sure. Metal? No.

No Pink Floyd: Piper At The Gates Of Dawn (1967) ?

In 1971 Ash Ra Tempel released their debut album /I think it was their debut album/ ,the first track which is nearly 20 minutes long has a huge proto-heavy metal vibe-a very interesting track. And the iconic "'In -A-Gadda-Da-Vida'",obviously-a legendary early heavy metal song.

SLADE ''Alive!" probably one of the heaviest live albums recorded in the early seventies

“Don’t Worry” by Marty Robbins in 1961 was a landmark distortion recording.

One album I don't see mentioned in this discussion (though it's post 60s) is Flower Travellin’ Band's Satori from 71. It's true it came after the "big 4" debuts, but it's got a heaviness that is unique... and the opening track is pure proto-doom. Maybe its the band name or the fact that they're from Japan?

@grimtraveller7923

Жыл бұрын

@John MacRae John, yours is a question that contains its own reply. Nothing from 1971 will be included because the topic is about heavy bands before the big 4, which, by its very nature means the 60s.

@JohnMacRae23

Жыл бұрын

@@grimtraveller7923 Grimtraveller... yah... your comment contains the obvious. I mentioned that it was AFTER the big 4, as a means to think about, draw attention to the album. I watched the video I understand the time frame.

I totally agree. Cream used to play a cover of the bluesman Memphis Slim's song " Steppin'Out" in 1966. The version included in "Live Cream II" and recorded in early 1968 is one of the first heavy metal tracks I have notion of.

Going earlier in time, Howlin Wolf is heavy and evil for the 50s. For me Johnny Burnette and Link Wray round out the key heavy metal "seeds".

@b.g.5869

Жыл бұрын

Yes, I think Link Wray's "Rumble" was the very first instance of sounds that would ultimately lead to metal. Whether it actually contributed to the development of metal is another matter (it probably didn't). It's a tricky question because on the one hand we can certainly identify songs from the years before metal was an established genre and with the benefit of hindsight recognize similarities to metal (however feint), but I think we should resist the temptation to conclude that anything that sounded 'metallic' in some sense necessarily had anything to do with the development of the genre.

@dtltmtgt

Жыл бұрын

@@b.g.5869 Fully agree. Great insights. We can't read too much into the sound leading up to what we call "heavy metal". The guitar sound Link Wray discovered was unique and one that some rockers in the '60s must have got into.

@grimtraveller7923

Жыл бұрын

@@b.g.5869 " I think we should resist the temptation to conclude that anything that sounded 'metallic' in some sense necessarily had anything to do with the development of the genre" I have to disagree. We're talking about the development of a genre. That means that there will be plenty of little nuances here and there, moments that took this development forward. Pieces of instrumentation that meant that the eventual genre developed as it did and might not have gone that way but for..... So every bit of metallic music is worthy of consideration. Obviously, some things will not have played as large a part as others, but that doesn't disqualify them from important influence.

@b.g.5869

Жыл бұрын

@@grimtraveller7923 Unless you're arguing that _anything_ that sounded in any sense 'metallic' _necessarily_ played a role in the eventual emergence of metal, you're not really challenging my argument. I find it most useful to look at the question by asking something along the lines of "In a hypothetical parallel universe where a particular song was never recorded, would heavy metal not have emerged?", where the particular song in question is one proposed as a necessary prerequisite for the eventual emergence of metal. I think there are many songs before metal was a thing that sound metallic in some sense that were nevertheless irrelevant to the eventual emergence of the genre. For example, I personally don't think "Helter Skelter" was a necessary prerequisite for the eventual emergence of metal. It's complicated though. While I think certain songs weren't necessary prerequisites for the eventual emergence of metal, I think a certain threshold amount of material leaning in a metallic direction was necessary, and I can imagine parallel universes in which they weren't all the same songs (though I think there'd be considerable overlap). This is a great topic that I would love to see Pete and Martin return to. In any event, I appreciate your thoughtful response.

@grimtraveller7923

Жыл бұрын

@@b.g.5869 "Unless you're arguing that anything that sounded in any sense 'metallic' necessarily played a role in the eventual emergence of metal" As you say, it's complicated or rather, nuanced. I tend to believe in small steps contributing to the eventual growth, demise, or establishment of something. History tends to record "big" steps and events {more for convenience’s sake} but I often find much more significance in smaller, almost forgotten ones. And so it is with the establishment of musical genres. I see heavy metal as an evolution, so within that there will be many many bands that may have touched on heavier songs {or even a heavier song or sometimes, just a heavier section of a song that may not be heavy throughout}. I think these smaller steps demonstrate the strength of where the wind was blowing. Helter Skelter is an example of that. It didn’t create heavy metal, in fact, it’s a good example of an original inspiration {Beatles} learning from and imitating those they had previously inspired in some way {Hendrix, Clapton and others; actually, in many ways, this can be seen throughout the Beatles’ story. They did it with the Stones, the Who, the Kinks, the Byrds, Dylan etc}. In the case of “anything metallic”, well, I’m going to take the plunge and say ‘yes’ ~ but with caveats. Some of the roles played were pretty minor {Helter Skelter being one of them} and some were definitely more on the major side. But they all counted, just not to the same degree. "where a particular song was never recorded, would heavy metal not have emerged?" Again, this is nuanced, paradoxical even, because the answer could easily be both yes and no. Taking Helter Skelter as an example again, not only would heavy metal still have emerged had it not been released, it was already in existence before Paul McCartney had the idea. But I think HM would have emerged without “Purple haze”, “Sunshine of your love” and others. And that’s my point about its evolution; because it was evolving, many many songs, artists and albums went into that evolution in such a way that it’s virtually impossible to say it wouldn’t have emerged had that particular song/artist/album not come along. Yet at the same time, because those songs were part of its evolution and did come along, we have the music as it developed. In the video, Martin made a good point about all the little fragments and moves here and there that went into the development of the genre. That’s why his book is so valuable {it traces so many of those fragments} ~ but also why I think it defeats the overarching point he makes about Black Sabbath being the inventors of heavy metal.

I thought for sure Vanilla Fudge would of got more of a mention. Im sure if they were more guitar prominent rather than organ they would be talked about much much more. They influenced Zeppelin and Deep Purple and Hendrix. Carmine was the first real heavy drummer as well imo and least in a more modern sense. Way ahead of his time. Similar to The Ramones going to the UK and influencing many soon to be punk artists I think its not unfair to say that Vanillla Fudge playing in England directly influenced all those bands to start playing alot heavier.

@MrCherryJuice

Жыл бұрын

The Fudge for sure!

@davemcnees8238

Жыл бұрын

Very surprised especially since Pete knows Carmine!

Another great show guys.MC5 and Grand Funk Railroad great album choices but for a one off choice how about Frijid Pink and House of the Rising Sun ?

Great discussion topic Pete and Martin. For heavy bands before the big 4 I would include Budgie, Sir Lord Baltimore, the Who, Steppenwolf, Sweet and the Yard Birds.

@seaoftranquilityprog

Жыл бұрын

Budgie, Sweet and SLB came after.

@sdrandazzo

Жыл бұрын

@@seaoftranquilityprog thank you for the update. Regards, Sal.

This was brilliant I loved all the picks from Pete and Martin

The Johnny Burnette Trio - "The Train Kept a-Rollin'" - 1st metal song.

I think that much music of the late 60s and early 70s had smatterings of the blues and psychedelia and this bled into a number of emerging genres like jazz-rock fusion, progressive rock and heavy metal. The blues and psych leanings don’t detract from the heavy metal~ness of particular songs. And even Sabbath’s debut, I can hear all kinds of different influences in there, including psych, jazz, pop and blues. But that was one of the great things about music in this period ~ there were lots of different elements coming out in the songs of most artists ~ Sabbath included. I think it’s worth remembering that the dates songs and albums were recorded is as important as the dates of release, because that demonstrates that outside influences weren’t necessarily as important as one might think. Particularly when one considers what was going on on opposite sides of the Atlantic. It’s also worth considering that all of these bands weren’t looking to create some new genre. They were following their natural inclinations. Turn up the amps louder ! It doesn’t matter that many of the heavy metal pioneers weren’t heavy metal bands. The sound was there. It was also quite new to peg oneself to a specific genre or sub-genre in rock, at the time.

In terms of 'evilness' as Martin says, as well as heaviness, fury, aural chaos, etc., the Velvet Underground's White Light/White Heat (1968) springs to mind for me.

I remember the Woodstock album,Then Years After-the sound of the lead guitar played by Alvin Lee /do I remember his name right?/ .Damn,it sounded so,so,so heavy!

I definitely can hear the roots of what would become heavy metal in In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida, but just like with Purple, I think the Hammond organ has the effect of de-metallicizing the sound. It seems to put it in another place sonically.

First Heavy Metal / Hard Rock Song To Me Is Music Machine's - Talk Talk. Heavy Fuzz Guitar - Gritty Gravely Hard Rock vocals combined for the first time in 1966 reached #15 on Billboard Top 100

One band I didn't see mentioned wss Jefferson Airplane. Basically, if you have Jorma Kaukonen and Jack Casady in a band it's going to powerhose band at leaning heavy a bit. Pete mentioned live albums: Bless Its Pointed Little Head by Jefferson Airplane is a rockin' live album.

Cream's live version of NSU. Whoaha!!! - March 1968 - definitely paving the way. I mean-What is heavier (live music or not) before this???

You may not have to put on your "winter tires" in New York, but you do have to get that annual inspection! That is one of them things I don't miss about New York.....

This was fun

Great conversation as always.

Steppenwolf, Cream, Vanilla Fudge, The Who, The Rolling Stones. Even some of The Beatles between 67 to 70 has some songs are heavy. I am gonna to order Martin's book found it on Amazon

Thanks for this great video both. Have a lot of the albums you talked about but have to say above and beyond the well known tracks, and having known about them for decades, I haven’t listened to much Steppenwolf, Iron Butterfly or Grand Funk Railroad. Soon about to rectify that by checking out the albums you mentioned!

Running to the Amazon store to get Martin's book. Yep, it's on Kindle!

Hendrix...Hendrix...Hendrix...And some guy named Jimi. A true pioneer of just about anything electric guitar-related & took the blues to places it had never gone before. Someone in a prior SoT proto-metal series defined metal (and/or proto metal) as something like "when the blues roots are no longer noticeable/dominant" plus a thick/distorted sound (and of course LOUD)... And (all 60's): Steppenwolf, Iron Butterfly, Blue Cheer, The Pretty Things (they really don't get enough attention), Coven (Witchcraft Destroys Minds & Reaps Souls), Cream, Vanilla Fudge, Leslie West's Mountain...Led Zep was pretty heavy for the time, also Live Yardbirds: Featuring Jimmy Page/Yardbirds '68. To me The Kinks aren't in this category other than a very few/select tracks, not enough to qualify (for me) - as Martin said. The Who is a "I'm on the fence" pick, yes some heavy stuff esp live but also lotsa non-proto metal or particularly heavy. Also much of their blues roots are still showing. I guess you could say the same about Cream but just such heavy blues that I think they do qualify (also the extensive improv elements as Pete mentioned). To me Grand Funk wasn't all that heavy (the only albums by them from the 60's that 'qualify' here are the first two - good albums but too much soul/funk mixed in for a 'proto-metal' album)...I like Martin's "crouching around the chords like an oil drum with a fire in it" visual!

@treff9226

Жыл бұрын

Great read, as per usual, Wolf! Agree with everything you said.....Great Minds......lol!

I mentioned this on another post, but rock stations played the entire 17 minutes or whatever of In a Gadda Da Vida and there was even an edited version without the drum solo they played and I never realized the reverse side was like 4 minutes long. In any case, along with Blue Cheer, Summertime Blues, and Steppenwolf's Born to Be Wild, this was "heavy metal".

One thing not mentioned is that Iron Butterfly captured the Horror movie soundtrack elements of Heavy Metal music perfectly during the creepy organ solo in the mid section of In A Gadda Da Vida

It’s interesting to hear your comments on Vincebus Etuptum because a few weeks back I was saying that that album is loud, heavy start to finish, has some great heavy riffs, but is pretty sloppy. The clashing guitar solos that sound off key sometimes are almost too chaotic to be metal. Someone replied saying that the chaotic and sloppiness is what gives it a metal sound, commenting that early Zeppelin and Sabbath albums also had some loose bolts. So we disagreed, but I agree with you guys that the second album is much more a “written” album rather than a noisy live performance in studio.

Great discussion. Thanks

Listen to Free’s “moonshine” off of tons of sobs and you can really here some influence on sabbath. It came out 2 years before sabbaths debut.

@markc5771

Жыл бұрын

Creams "Politician" I always thought was a huge influence on Sabbath. In fact, when I first heard Black Sabbath debut album, I thought of it as an extension of what Cream was already doing.

@geofflaidlaw7496

Жыл бұрын

It came out less than a year earlier.

@seang1979

Жыл бұрын

@@geofflaidlaw7496 sabbath’a debut was released June 1970 and tons of sobs was March 1968.

@geofflaidlaw7496

Жыл бұрын

@@seang1979 Nope. Free did not play their first gig until April 1968. Their first album released, in the UK on March 14th 1969. Sabbath’s debut released in February 1970 in the UK.

What is metal? Heavy metal? Rock? Heavy rock? Not a fan of strict definitions. Strict definitions create the labels that we put on our boxes that separate our music (and music fans). However, a couple more items for consideration: Leslie West / Mountain - 1969 - Mountain Yardbirds....maybe Regarding Blue Cheer - Vincebus Eruptum, Pete said, "...is it that remarkable of an album, I don't think so" (and an angel cried) Interesting show chaps. Keep up the good work.

@wolf1977

Жыл бұрын

To me 'hard rock' is really hard to nail down, and there's always controversy when an SoT episode mentions this style (which of course is good for viewership because it generates more views). I think music genres/labels have their place, as with so much else the genres themselves arent' bad, it's how they get used

As scandinavan I feel that I should mention the swedish band "Hansson & Karlsson",. Consisting only of hammond organ and drums.! Maybbe not that heavy, more phychadelic and a little jazzy, but irt was the middle of rhe 60's. They use to jam with Jimi Hendrix when he was in Sweden (he has a son living in Sweden). Hendrix actually recorded one of their songs, called "Taxfree".

@jeffreyrobinson9120

Жыл бұрын

Love Hendrix version of that song, also, I`m a big fan of Bo Hansson`s solo albums.

@wolf1977

Жыл бұрын

@@jeffreyrobinson9120 The 10 minute "Tax Free" from Winterland is fantastic. Hendrix actually mentions Hansson & Karlsson in the intro to the 'jam'. Their '69 Man At The Moon album is proggy/spacey fusion I'd say - something Jimi himself could've easily continued doing himself had he lived (but with more 'fire' added & maybe a bit more bluesy). Sort of a less jazz version of Miles Davis' late 60's stuff

I see somebody mentioned Yesterdays Children, that's some heavy stuff on that platter. I will add little known Valhalla from the US , Gun from the UK, Steamhammer, Group 1850 from Holland and by 1970 May Blitz, Elias Hulk,T2 and so on.

This was good, though I feel there were a couple key omissions. A definition of what constitutes 'heavy' would have provided a baseline for reference. Without that the choices and suggestions in the comments veer a bit wider than one might feel they should go. The Kinks 'You Really Got Me', 'All of the Day & All of the Night', as well as 'Till the End of the Day' and 'I Need You', all of which followed the same barre chord 'power' formula were definitely heavy for the day and still stand up, particularly in Mono format. They were raucous and loud, but also rock solid thanks in part to session drummer Bobby Graham, who also did the drumming on those stomping early Dave Clark Five hits and was on Page's wish list for Led Zeppelin. Yes, the guitar riff was critical, but it was the low end that 'heavy-ed' it up. The Beatles on 'Paperback Writer' were getting heavy. They were also introducing melodic riffing in a more meaningful way, and soon pop was increasingly about riffs, not rhythms. The Who, thanks mainly to John Entwistle's bass were heavy on some early tracks. But Moon was all over the place, so there was no consistent concentration on the heavy aspect. And Townshend was all about rhythm, not riffing. They were loud more than heavy. And regarding the Marshalls - Jim Marshall developed louder amps at the request of Townshend and Entwistle. They also requested more speakers, so a single cabinet with 8 x 12s was constructed. That proved too cumbersome for the Who's road crew (probably one guy at the time), so the lads had Marshall cut that cab into two and thus created the stack. (The slant top was apparently added to bounce the sound off the venue ceiling and reach further out into the audience, though the Tremeloes, who did a lot of harmony work in an era of no monitors, said they came up with the idea because on small stages and with single cabs they couldn't hear their guitars, so some upward projection to shift the sound waves from the back of their knees to their ears was needed) But IMO the first real 'heavy' record was 'Beck's Bolero', recorded May '66. You will know who that involved, but for those who don't it was a one-off session arranged by the Yardbirds manager at time, Simon Napier-Bell, to appease Jeff Beck, who was feeling limited within the Yardbirds. Keith Moon on drums, Nicky Hopkins on piano, John Paul Jones on bass (a last-minute fill-in for John Entwistle) and Page on 12-string and producing. When Beck comes in with the riff bit in the middle of that tune, that and the pounding bolero groove played out 'til the end made this surely the heaviest thing ever recorded in the pop world. It wasn't just loud; it was powerful. And and because everything was so focused on the same point, it was heavy. Unfortunately it wasn't released until a year later, and then only as the B-side of Beck's solo single debut, 'Hi Ho Silver Lining', which though a hit wasn't something Beck fans purchased. It would show up again another year later on 'Truth', where album producer Mickie Most omitted the various player credits and assumed the production credit for himself. (Moon and Jones also appear on and are credited for other tracks on the album.) Also, the opening track on 'Truth', the half-time remake of the Yardbirds, with Micky Waller drumming and Ronnie Wood on bass, is definitely a heavy contender. Cream were heavy, though it was the thundering interplay between Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker that made them that, with Clapton providing the complementary upper end. The diversity of their material meant they were never deemed 'heavy', a term that was only starting to emerge around the time of their existence. (In 1972, a compilation LP named 'Heavy Cream' was released.) As you indicate, the Hendrix Experience had their heavy moments, though unlike Ginger Baker, who hammered his toms and played open rolls, Mitch Mitchell was more about snappy snare fills and crash-y cymbals (the latter being a point of complaint for his previous boss Georgie Fame and also for Hendrix, who sought a more solid r&b backing). Your mention of Hendrix possibly being inspired to go the trio route because of Cream is accurate. Originally the Hendrix band was going to a soul revue configuration with horns. Then Chas Chandler whittled that down to a quartet with organ. After seeing Cream, it was decided to do the trio. Though Mitch Mitchell won the gig via a coin flip by Chandler (he flipped twice as the first coin fell on the floor of the cab), one could argue that for the trio seeing he was more suitable than Aynsley Dunbar who was a more straight-up player. This was confirmed when Hendrix and Chandler, wanting to ditch Mitch, gave Dunbar a second audition...but they decided to stick with Mitch. There was another drummer that Hendrix preferred - an unknown chap - but he didn't want to travel. So Mitch kept the gig...until Buddy Miles entered the picture. At that point Hendrix was heavier because of the fatback rhythm section of Miles and Bill Cox. Then he went back to Mitchell. A key name in the 'heavy' discussion is surely Vanilla Fudge. When they played gigs in London in '67, they were the talk of the town...like when Hendrix first arrived. Ritchie Blackmore was determined that his new band, Deep Purple, would be the 'European Vanilla Fudge'. The Fudge's heaviness came from the drum big sound and r&b grooves of Carmine Appice coupled with the phenomenal bass playing of Tim Bogert. Add to that the sound of Mark Stein's Hammond and great vocals plus Vinnie Martell's fuzz-driven guitar - all topped of by four-part harmony vocals and that was one helluva heavy band. But like Cream, heaviness wasn't their calling card. Blue Cheer, as you indicate, had their moments. But surely they were more loud than heavy. And therein lies the difference, and the Who are a great example. Were they really heavy on 'Live at Leeds'? Or did they really get heavy on 'Who's Next', when producer Glyn Johns forced Keith Moon to cut the flailing about and focus on grooving? If anyone knew how to heavy things up, it was Johns. He engineered those early Who sessions for producer Shel Talmy. And he gave heft to the records from the Small Faces. He put the meat into the sound of the late 60s Stones. And he defined the recorded sound of Led Zeppelin w/their debut album. (Listen also to Gary Wright's debut solo album, 'Extraction'. He and brother Andy - who also understood heavy - did a fantastic job with that. Try the track 'I Know a Place', with pre-Yes Alan White on drums.) There was no mention of the Move. Listen to 'Brontosaurus (covered by Cheap Trick and also Todd Rundgren's Utopia) and 'Don't Make My Baby Blue'. As for 'Heavy Metal', I have alway felt there is a psychological component that stems from the surroundings of the bands making the music. American bands tended to vent anger, but the likes of Sabbath, who hail from the industrial English midlands, where Victorian red brick, dark skies and rain, smokey pubs, and the desolation of post-war destruction lingered well into the 1970s, powered their music with despair. Anger versus despair. Ditto the British punk scene. When it comes to reasons to rebel against the establishment, the Brits always have the upper hand. On the matter of feedback, and your attribution of that to Hendrix. No. Jeff Beck was ahead of all the rest even prior to joining the Yardbirds, using it along with a delay to create loops of feedback onstage. Clapton was using it with the Bluesbreakers, as did Peter Green, albeit comparatively subdued. Mick Taylor also used it in the Bluesbreakers, though more extensively than his predecessors. I leave a link below of Taylor feeding back with Jon Hiseman drumming, Tony Reeves on bass, and Mayall on rhythm and vocals. Hiseman and Reeves would later form Colosseum, which as you will know, was one of the earliest jazz-rock bands. (Hiseman had taken over Ginger's seat in the Graham Bond Organisation when he left to form Cream, and then Mitch's place in Georgie Fame's Blue Flames when he went to Hendrix). Humble Pie's Clem Clempson came from Colosseum, which he, bassist Mark Clarke and vocalist Chris Farlowe have resurrected after the death of Hiseman and the departure of organist Dave Greenslade due to health issues. If anyone has made it this far, hopefully there was something of interest. I now need to go out and paint the house while the sun is warm. Cheers! kzread.info/dash/bejne/emdolrOSerCXaMY.html

@grimtraveller7923

Жыл бұрын

MrCherry, that was a joy to read ! The only part I might pick you up on was the bit about loud vs heavy. True, some bands were just loud. But all heavy bands were loud and that was often a major part of those artists' thinking. I'd say that most of the bands that were loud were loud on some songs as opposed to all. But the same applies to most pre~70s heavies. For example, Led Zeppelin were heavy and crushingly so on a number of songs. But "You shook me," "Black Mountain side" and "Thank you" weren't loud.

The Stars That Play With Laughing Sam’s Dice, the B side of Burning 🔥 of The Midnight Lamp 🪔 is a great song 🎵 and is heavy as hell

Martin and Pete thanks for the subject I asked the question to Pete many months ago who was the first heavy metal band as a subject for a topic .All these bands you hit I totally agree with I grew up I was 12,13 and 14 during this period and I listen to them as they were released. I know Pete you’re a KISS fan and Grand Funk Railroad and "Blue Chair" were my kiss back then so I understand the childish rock vibe. I think the crazy world of Arthur Brown the song "God Of Hell Fire" was the first heavy-metal screamer. thanks so much for this wonderful show.

I am a music lover and well past fifty and I find there is still alot of hard rock that I somehow missed. Digging around on KZread and the vinyl community made me realize that fm radio was limiting. Fm radio played mostly top 40 and were into the payola thing and wouldn't play Captain Beefheart, Frank Zappa and such because it was deemed to be a financial risk if people complained.

I am surprised you didn't mention Sir Lord Baltimore - Kingdom Come (1970) which is really heavy. The self titled follow up from 1971 is even heavier but slower in tempo. It is an overlooked masterpiece with tracks like "Man from Manhattan", "Chicago lives", "woman tamer" and "Caesar LXXI" Concerning "the big four", I thought you were going to mention Mountain and not Uriah Heep. Regarding heavy live albums. We have the live album by Yardbirds recorded 23th March 1968 sold under various names but predating the albums by mc5 and the who which you mentioned.

One band I was sure was going to be brought up was the Yardbirds, who had several (at least a mixtape worth) pretty noisy moments.

1. Cream 2. Hendrix 3. Iron Butterfly 4. Blue Cheer

I love that book! Read it twice! Much fodder for scholarly debate. Love these discussions of the early road to Heavy.

Iron Butterfly,Cream Jimmy Hendrix,Vanilla Fudge,West Coast Pop Art Experimental Band(A child's guide fir goid and evil),Pink Floyd(?)(Piper at the gates of dawn-Interstellar Overdrive),Andromeda,Stooges(Down on the street,Penetrate)Greetings from Greece

Jeff Beck Group's Beck-ola and Free's Tons of Sobs (this one from 1968!)

Who Invented Heavy Metal? is one of my favorites of Martin's books, as it's one of my favorite topics. BTW Martin, Pete was trying to say that he wants that book, better send him a copy! A sequel to that book would be who are the earliest bands to truly self-identify as heavy metal? It's well documented that all the big four vehemently deny having anything to do with heavy metal (even Dio didn't like to use the term even though he was a key early innovator with Rainbow and Sabbath). An important aspect that hasn't been covered is when exactly did the "denim brigade" start regularly sewing patches on their battle vests and self-identified as headbangers and metalheads. It seems to be sometime between 1975, when DJ Neal Kay starting hosting The Soundhouse, and 1978 when Geoff Barton started covering the scene in Sounds. Judas Priest embraced the term by at least 1978, but it's unclear if they did even when the definitive Sad Wings of Destiny came out in 1976. Iron Maiden formed in 1975 but took until 1979 to really flesh out their sound. Same with Son of a Bitch, formed in 1976, who became Saxon in 1978 and recorded a three song demo tape that same year, and their eponymous debut album on May 21, 1979. There's also Newcastle upon Tyne’s Raven (1974), Nottingham’s Witchfynde (1974), London’s Praying Mantis (1974), Birmingham’s Quartz (originally Bandylegs, 1974), Girlschool (1975), Samson (1977) and Angel Witch (1977), who also had a 1978 demo, Hartlepool’s White Spirit (1975), Stourbridge’s Diamond Head (1976), Whitley Bay’s Tygers Of Pan Tang (1978), who self-produced their first single and released it on punk label Neat Records on August 24, 1979.

@grimtraveller7923

Жыл бұрын

@Fastnbulbous "who are the earliest bands to truly self-identify as heavy metal? .....when exactly did the "denim brigade" start regularly sewing patches on their battle vests and self-identified as headbangers and metalheads" In a sense, while an interesting question and topic, it doesn't really matter. This is treating the matter as some kind of contest ~ and it isn't one. Regardless of when a band self-identified, if the music style was already in existence, then their self identification doesn't make them important or pioneers, but rather, fellow travellers. That said though, it would be interesting to know for sure who actually were the first band to say "we play heavy metal." I suspect it was Judas Priest. Yet they were way down the line. "It's well documented that all the big four vehemently deny having anything to do with heavy metal " I find this interesting and not at all surprising. You see, by the time it was an accepted genre with all the stereotypical accouterments that go with a genre, Sabbath, Purple, Zeppelin and Heep were as contemptuous of the brainlessless associated with headbanging as the critics of the music. In the book "All you need is love" from 1976, Jimmy Page is quoted as saying "I hate my music being described as rock'n'roll....I distrust all labels...they're a long way from the truth." He had earlier described Zeppelin as "heavy blues.....an incredible String Band trip." And Ginger Baker said that if Cream were one of the forefathers of HM, there should have been an abortion ! What I glean from the denials of the big 4 and lots of others, actually, is that they didn't want to limit themselves to a genre or be pigeonholed by the press of the fans. And they didn't. Even Black Sabbath were showing in 1970, that they had a softer touch to their bow.

@Fastnbulbous1969

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@@grimtraveller7923 That's a good quote, Led Zep didn't even want to be considered "rock 'n' roll," which sounds insufferably pretentious, but they had the luxury to say such absurd things, because they did achieve becoming their own singular brand outside of genres. Along with Pink Floyd, Bowie, Queen, they were pioneers of that. The fact is that most bands don't achieve that level of status, as much as they'd wish to, and being part of a subculture like heavy metal eventually benefitted thousands of bands. So yeah, I think it does matter!

Grand Funk Railroad, Cream, The Jimi Hendrix Experience, and The Who

As a freshman in college in 1967, I had a friend who played a Cream album and I instantly realized that this was my music. I still prefer the early proto-metal bands to most metal bands after. Grand Funk, Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath, Cream, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Steppenwolf, and Jimi Hendrix are still the bands I listen to most. What about Mountain?

@mannyruiz1954

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I was gonna mention Mountain. That first Leslie West album titled Mountain had a lot of riffage and heavy. The live version of Blood of The Sun at Woodstock was really heavy.

@carlwarmington5325

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Good call on Mountain, I remember back in the day we considered Mountain super heavy

Great show as always - Every music lover should be subscribed to this channel….I learn something everyday from Pete and his team :)

There was an album called Fuzzy Duck that made one album and then dis-banded but, it's a fabulous album that rocks very hard.

HI!!...Rodrigo here from Brazil...I've discorvered the channel these days...Congrats!!...It's a great one for rock fans!!...I 'd like to know What's the name of the book that leads Popoff on this video??...Thanks a million!

I lived through all of these bands. Next show on heavy metal should definitely include the first Montrose lp. (Great album!) I also want to mention if your listeners haven't heard the Leigh Stevens Red Weather album (terrific cover) it's definitely worth their time.

Link Wray "Rumble" Heavy for the 50's

Free for sure.What about Vanilla Fudge?!

Excellent insight great topic 👍🏼👍🏼

Enjoyed this today it's October and this year been watching a lot of b horror movies but saw this and had to watch. I love your discussions on this kind of stuff.

Excellent episode. I ordered Martin’s Who Invented… book too!

In Sweden we also do the change of tyres to before the winter...

Good work Pete - just thought I’d say - as always!

Mitch Mitchell once played in Blue Cheer

It's always subjective. Johnny Kidd and the Pirates-Motorhead and The Who covered them, had a future Deep Purple member in their last lineup. Good to hear Mitch Mitchell's contribution to "Heavy Music" be recognised. At the start of the JHE's existence, he was the best known member, as he'd already had a successful career with Georgie Fame's Blue Flames.

@grimtraveller7923

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"It's always subjective." Only in part. A loud fuzzy guitar is a loud fuzzy guitar. If one wishes to deny it, good luck with that !!

@davidgray2075

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@@grimtraveller7923 The Big Three had the biggest speakers of any of the bands in the UK circa 62 and 63. Their Live at the Cavern e.p sounds loud and heavy today!

Great subject 🎸 I would add The Yardbirds & the Small Faces 🎸

I think judging these things is difficult because you’re talking about the capacity to convey heaviness on record. I reckon blues acts like Little Walter would have been really heavy live but this didn’t transmit so much on vinyl. In the early days of The Beatles engineers would back things up if the needle was even approaching the red.

Dave Clark 5 have a few jams back in the day

these examples probably fall low in terms of influence, but I feel like pointing out 2 songs that prefigure 'heavy' 1. "Who Are the Brain Police" (1966) Mothers of Invention. sludgy, distorted riff? check. 2. "Dropout Boogie" (1967) Captain Beefheart. fuzz guitar + Van Vliet's growl.

This was such a wonderful history lesson with the two masters. I really liked Martin's plug for Randy Holden, Population II. I hope dearly we see Martin's "American Response to UK Bands 1970-1973" fully realized!

As a guitarist I remember the half step and major third in Metal often referred to as the "evil interval".

@wolf1977

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AKA the tri-tone (augmented fourth)? Can sound kinda dissonant depending on how it's used. A lot of jazz players use it, also Hendrix as early as '64 & on "Puple Haze" (even though supposedly he didn't know any music theory)

@NitroModelsAndComics

Жыл бұрын

Indeed it can. I often use inversions to get colors as well. Its all about what youre tryong to say musically. Ultinately rhere are just tried and trues we tend to use. The root 5 being the biggie. 4ths are good becaise they are still sweet sounding. Of course the easier to finger the quicker we can move them also. Music is fun.