My favorite tidbit about this series is that after MGS2 everyone was desperate to know who the Patriots were. And then, instead of that, we got MGS3, a prequel set before even the first game that had nothing to do with the Patriots at all. People were super upset that they would have to wait until MGS4 to find out who the Patriots were. And then, when MGS4 came out, it was revealed that the characters in MGS3 were, in fact, the Patriots and the game had told us basically everything about them, just without telling us that's what they were. Hideo Kojima is a master troll.

@MrMariosonicman

Жыл бұрын

its been so long since I played those two games. where the patriots the bossess or someone else in MGS3?

@maxastro

Жыл бұрын

@@MrMariosonicman Nearly every character who survived MSG3 would go on to become a founding member of the Patriots. Major Zero, Naked Snake, Eva, Para-Medic, Revolver Ocelot, and Sigint were all either founding or early-recruited members.

@moxxiiscarlett7141

Жыл бұрын

​@@MrMariosonicman hope you didn't like Para-Medic

@brotbrotsen1100

Жыл бұрын

I remember seeing a dude online back way before MGS4 came out who made a theory about it and called litterally everything, was like he could see right into kojimas head. Coolest thing was he even called that you play as big boss and not snake in MGS 3 which wasn't obvious before release, people even thought it is a ridiculous idea. But man it was crazy seeing so much stuff he said come true.

@SuperVALERock

Жыл бұрын

@@brotbrotsen1100 That's insane! Props to that guy

Snake said "make your own name" and this man chose to become his own edgy robot ninja OC. You know what, valid, you go king.

@FelisImpurrator

Жыл бұрын

Based

@korvidkillz

Жыл бұрын

If that aint the trans experience idk what is

@JimmehRulez

Жыл бұрын

Fr

@MxPokirby

Жыл бұрын

@@korvidkillz From transmasc to transmech

@zettovii1367

Жыл бұрын

​@@thatitalianlameguy2235 He got trans groomed

I guarantee Kojima happened to stop by the office of the Ghost Babel devs, saw the postgame and was like “hey, can you name the person doing the training Jack? No reason, just because.”

@TheGreatBackUpVIDEOS

Жыл бұрын

I want this to be true SO bad

@alicevioleta3184

11 ай бұрын

iirc, kojima worked on GB

@luiszuniga2859

11 ай бұрын

Devs: we want the truth! Kojima: You can't handle the truth!

@FangTehWolf

11 ай бұрын

Thats probably exactly what happened. Its like for Marvel movies, James Gunn asked the Russo brothers to include a kiss between Star Lord and Gamora to set up his guardians 3 stuff.

@ridgedaddy

7 ай бұрын

"Kojima also stated he worked on developing the game with the intent of not having it seem "dumb" to players who have already played Metal Gear Solid." - Metal Gear Wiki

I recall MGS2 acknowledges Ghost Babel, because when the Colonel’s AI is going haywire it mentions Galuade, implying that all of Ghost Babel was a simulation for Raiden, not just the bonus missions at the end.

@CCDaDon15

4 ай бұрын

It does!

@r3gret2079

4 ай бұрын

You sonnuva bitch you're right! Holy macaroly

@ianweckhorst3200

3 ай бұрын

Wtf is the end bit

@CCDaDon15

3 ай бұрын

@@ianweckhorst3200 It's revealed that the character you play that is controlling Snake in the simulation is named Jack, implying it is Raiden. It also came out a year before MGS2

@ianweckhorst3200

3 ай бұрын

@@CCDaDon15 of the video, not the game

Gamechamp causally causing an entire fan base to play all of the non cannon games to check for a single line of dialogue was not a thing I thought was going to happen today

@GamingintheAM0801

Жыл бұрын

Ghost Babel may be non-canon, but I think it's the best Metal Gear game, no exaggeration.

@johnfkennedyinanopentopcar8976

Жыл бұрын

Cope

@SupermewX300

Жыл бұрын

@@GamingintheAM0801 It can't be, Rising exists.

@notNajimi

Жыл бұрын

@@johnfkennedyinanopentopcar8976 what

@neepha7324

Жыл бұрын

​@@SupermewX300 Rising's just okay I'm sorry but I'd rather just play an MGS game for the dumb humor or a DMC game for hack n slash gameplay

Imagine some kid named Jack played Ghost Babel and just thought the game was speaking directly to him and only after watching this video realized what actually happened

@redpup112

Жыл бұрын

As someone who's name is Jack and forgot Raiden's actual name was Jack before watching this video, I sorta kinda experienced this

@Deathlygunn

Жыл бұрын

Similar thing, but my Dad's name is David, so when I watched him play through the original MGS and Snake said "Call me David" I just assumed the game somehow knew your name.

@Elratauru

Жыл бұрын

Every copy of Metal Gear Ghost Babel is personalized???

@jenny_azoth

Жыл бұрын

bluhhhh

@piergiorgiocaroli9201

Жыл бұрын

Guess i'm happy that my name's Piergiorgio

It makes sense that he's called Jack and not Raiden in Ghost Babel. He doesn't even receive that codename until he's already infiltrated the Big Shell and AI Campbell decides to change his codename from Snake to Raiden.

@marvelsandals4228

Жыл бұрын

Which is a fascinating idea tbh. Imagine that you are given a name by your superior officer that you are required to go by in all communications during your mission...then 5 minutes into the mission they just go "actually, I'm going to rename you. From now on your name is Frank. Ok?" Like at any moment your NAME, your identity, can just be taken away and replaced like it was nothing. That sets you up to have some existential dread. Who am I? Do I even have a name? Does it matter? Then, after all that, Rose just outs you as "Jack," violating their protocol about using a code name. His first name is literally Jack and now all of their elaborate efforts to hide the truth are wasted lol

@RustedBuddy5192

11 ай бұрын

@@marvelsandals4228 That still confuses me though. Cause Rose was an AI at that point so they outed themselves. But we see the pay off of The hind D from MGS1 being The Gurlukovich soldiers raiding the marine ship THEN the plant with Ocelot. So there has to be some things that DID happen unless you want to say the MG1, MG2, MGS1, and MGS3 ALL never happened. Which is true since its a videogame series of course. But we're talking about in universe. Or I guess in this instance its "in simulation"? Geez Did Kojima predict the fixation on multiverses in modern day media too? Because thats like saying "What if this simulation WAS real and separate from what you know?"

@shoedonym9336

10 ай бұрын

​@@RustedBuddy5192Rose intentionally makes that "mistake" in order to create a false sense of intimacy with Raiden and make him easier to control

@selemanecu

8 ай бұрын

@@RustedBuddy5192 remember you are sent on mission with faulty intel (false information) and get betrayed in every single Game! So it's less about the Simulation being real or not but the player characters and the player themselves having to come to the conclusion that they will never know the full truth!

@MKDumas1981

4 ай бұрын

​@@marvelsandals4228: To be fair, I have changed the codenames of some of my soldiers in Portable Ops.

I love that big reveal at 6:40 is followed up by "Rank:Terrible"

@migueeeelet

4 ай бұрын

no kills, no alerts, no nothing... get outta here

@Obbels

2 ай бұрын

See above 👆

I think this kind of madness is exactly what they wanted out of us tbh

@TheFloodFourm

Жыл бұрын

100% the entire point of the game. A lot of art leaves you asking questions like Joel from the Last of Us. MGS2 leaves you asking about the events that transpired in the first place, and more importantly, what of it even matters.

@GamingintheAM0801

Жыл бұрын

​@Flood Which is why I was never a fan of MGS4 coming along and just telling us what was real and what wasn't. It defeated the point. I get that MGS4 was only made due to fan request, but it stands as a prime example of why fans shouldn't be allowed to dictate the direction of a franchise against it's creator's wishes.

@lpfan4491

Жыл бұрын

@@GamingintheAM0801 And even then, they took the absolute least interessting way possible to lock in the truth. It's the same "Nanomachines, son" that Revengence did later, except with the style and satisfaction of a wet noodle. (In general, there seems to be a weird kind of trinity of MG-styles. The serious story, the supernatural intrigue and the off the walls-insanity. The closer it goes away from focussing on either of these three extremes and towards a middlepoint, the more the stories suffers and become a muddied mess.)

@dopey473

Жыл бұрын

​@@TheFloodFourm I think I saw a vid once that said that the game represents subjectivity of modern reality. Where everything including the game can be interpreted differently by anyone.

@WoobertAIO

Жыл бұрын

@@lpfan4491 I think the "Nanomachines, son" was partially just mocking MGS4 for explaining everything with nanomachines.

I love that Raiden’s Wikipedia page is already being edited and the video’s barely over

@Genesukt64

Жыл бұрын

God I fucking love Wikipedia admins LMAO

@noblesseoblige319

Жыл бұрын

Wait really???

@Stardust51

Жыл бұрын

Just checked and you're right. That was quick lol

@Algox

Жыл бұрын

Yeah lmfao

@coleminer8847

Жыл бұрын

When one of you favorite youtubers ends up changing wikipedia on complete accident

"I am not crazy! I know Raiden showed up in Ghost Babel! I knew it was April. One before Solid 2. As if I could ever make such a mistake. Never. Never! I just - I just couldn't prove it. He - he covered his tracks, he got those idiots on the internet to lie for him. You think this is something? You think this is bad? This? This chicanery? He's done worse. Those cutscenes! Are you telling me that a man just happens to talk like that? No! He orchestrated it! Raiden! He hid is existence! And I exposed him! And I shouldn't have. I took him into my own video! What was I thinking? He'll never change. He'll never change! Ever since I was 9, always the same! Couldn't keep my hands out of the chronological order of games! But not our Raiden! Couldn't be precious Raiden! Stealing them blind! And he gets to be have an incorrect wikipedia page!? What a sick joke! I should've stopped him when I had the chance! And you - you have to stop him!" -Gamechamp3000

@marvelsandals4228

Жыл бұрын

I approve, although perhaps Gamechamp should be ranting about Kojima since he ORCHESTRATED all of this

@theunknownuser9609

Жыл бұрын

r/okbuddynanomachines

@nouche

10 ай бұрын

You are an absolute genius.

@iantaakalla8180

6 ай бұрын

r/okbuddynanomachicanery

@mire4794

5 ай бұрын

Your name checks out.

This actually makes sense if you think about the dialog in MGS2 where raiden says he's completed many virtual missions before simulanting solid snake.

@Vanity0666

Жыл бұрын

The VR Missions on PS1 is that

@zs4580

11 ай бұрын

​@@Vanity0666lol maybe, maybe not. The game obviously doesn't mention a specific console. And the PlayStation VR missions don't call you jack at the end, how can you just easily dismiss them like that

@Vanity0666

11 ай бұрын

@@zs4580 VR Missions, Ghost Babel, and Twin Snakes are the simulation missions leading up to Raiden's first actual real world op Snake doesn't use VR, his training is performed under the simulation invasions of Outer Heaven and Zanzibar Land

@KasumiRINA

11 ай бұрын

@@Vanity0666 Snake absolutely talks about VR training in some codec calls in Metal Gear Solid. IIRC those calls only say that if you go through them, but it means of course, that the game actually plays it that the training missions are done in-universe by Solid and not by you as a player.

@Vanity0666

11 ай бұрын

@@KasumiRINA he says that VR training exists but that its worthless and the simulations can never match up to the real deal, which ends up being ironic because he himself is a simulation of Big Boss

"The Metal Gear series isn't that confusing." The history of one Metal Gear character:

@Cappuccino_Rabbit

Жыл бұрын

"WHY IS THE LORE SO CONFUSING?!" "Nanomachines, son"

@plugshirt1762

Жыл бұрын

Bruh this isn't half as confusing as figuring out what the hell ocelot is doing at any given moment.

@KasumiRINA

11 ай бұрын

@@ohmannotaga and that is EXACTLY what makes him so hard to figure... as in, to know what he's at you need to know EVERYTHING.

@zyxluz4645

10 ай бұрын

*ONE TENTH of the history of one Metal Gear character

@troytheboy1985

28 күн бұрын

@@zyxluz4645 and the other half is the boss and then 25% is her will

This story is actually pretty neat when taking in the whole misinformation theme of MGS2. The fact that the real information was always there just obfuscated and hidden in a spot no one was likely to look for is really neat since no one knew what it meant and the marketing didn't draw attention to it. Like in real life the real info was there but the person distributing the info kept it under wraps and drew our attention to the narrative they wanted.

@thechugg4372

Жыл бұрын

You want even more misinformation? This entire video is actual misinformation that modifies the truth, as at this point there was already a character named Jack, Big Boss, the main antagonist of the series. I hope this video doesn't spread even MORE misinformation, but honestly, Kojima warned us, people will get fooled by this.

@neverpass04

Жыл бұрын

Kojima really is a genius

@jjtheenton

11 ай бұрын

He was ahead of the curve.

@Zorro7269

8 ай бұрын

Kojima is the ultimate troll.

something i noticed recently is that the game opens with snake saying "hudson river 2 years ago" as if immediately disproving his death before you even meet plisken. But every player seems to forget about it by the time the tanker mission finishes.

@dbstop9194

2 ай бұрын

OMFG I just realized this 22 years later.

This actually makes a ton of sense. I always assumed that when they say Raiden played a simulation recreating the Shadow Moses incident, that it was just the first mgs he played, but Ghost Babel actually IS the recreated shadow Moses simulation! Perfect

Summary: New recruit Jack did VR training as Solid Snake and was gaslit by the Patriots to make him into a supersoldier. During his time in the training and beginning ops, he took on Snake's name as a way for the Patriots to continually cover the tracks of who the "real snake" is. He then takes on the name Raiden. During the course of MGS2 Jack-Now-Raiden learns the dark truth about the Patriots and how he was gaslit, misled, and intentionally misdirected. His identity is in conflict because he is told conflicting information about who he is and what his role is. He has memories, but has no idea if they're his. He is then told by Solid Snake (Dave) that his past and memories are not absolute truths. There's no such thing as absolute truths. Everything is subjective. But even so, those experiences still shape you to be who you are. You can be who you set out to be, even if who you were was manufactured. You always have choice. And people will try to exploit that. TLDR: Raiden is Shadow the Hedgehog

@noblesseoblige319

Жыл бұрын

The hell is Dave

@12whufffff

Жыл бұрын

that last sentence was a slap in the face

@Lynxtek

Жыл бұрын

why would you say something so controversial yet so true

@Diphenhydra

Жыл бұрын

I don’t know anything about what you’re talking about, but I find it weird that Tom Brady somehow fits into this story.

@JonDundas10

Жыл бұрын

Lmao dambb

The lie is the friends we made along the way

@gunsandroses896

Жыл бұрын

Deeeeeeeeeeep

@cravonomire9971

Жыл бұрын

Yep

@EnemyToad

11 ай бұрын

☹️

Well shit. Raiden's first on -screen appearance has him wearing a mask and speaking in a tone closer to Snake's voice AND the Colonel even calls him Snake before giving him the new codename Raiden. The Whiny boi we love didn't show that side of himself until after being given the new identity of Raiden. It's like a transition from Ghost Babel into Sons of Liberty right there in the game. The Colonel even talks about the VR missions in that scene

Ghost Babel was not Raiden's first appearance. It was his first mention. Dilemma avoided.

@nouche

10 ай бұрын

I guess the dilemma still technically stands because it’s non-canon.

@jebuzjaime

8 ай бұрын

​@@noucheNo, the dilemma doesn't exist. It's his first mention even if it isn't in the canonical plot of the main series games. Just how Togepi and Ho-oh first appeared in the anime, before they even had canonical games. It's relative to real world mentions, not to in game continuity.

@nouche

8 ай бұрын

@@jebuzjaime : It makes sense but then the thing is also that we can’t absolutely be sure it was Raiden who was mentioned in Ghost Babel. It’s very likely… but we’ll never exactly know if they really had him in mind at the time, or not. So the example of Pokémon isn’t the best because those were clearly intended to be new Pokémon, and were then used in games with a similar design and the same names. This Jack thing was just a bottle toss in the sea with the one first name, and it’s quite a common one. Like an open thread, to be used or not. Maybe it’s MGS2 that _retroactively_ chose to make Ghost Babel a first appearance when Raiden was created, by naming him Jack. It would then make it true, but not originally unintended/planned, making it a different scenario than that of Pokémon. Or they really just had him in mind all along, we don’t know. Heck, even Big Boss’s name is also Jack!

@StationSquare.

7 ай бұрын

@@nouche Erm, ackshually his real name is John and Jack is just an alias…🤓

@sinistertwister686

4 ай бұрын

GIGABRAIN MOVE

What complicates this even further is that Raiden was mentioned in the MGS2 Manual. If one would have read tbe manual, the twist would have been revaled.

@willyeeton4390

Жыл бұрын

Something something theming The twist wasn't even fully hidden or suppressed, the truth was just kept in a space that most people wouldn't look. Those that would wouldn't put the mystery together or wouldn't be able to communicate their findings well enough to matter. The natural tendency towards convenient half-truths, y'know?

Metal Gear's biggest strength is screwing with your mind, I swear

@theauberman

Жыл бұрын

That's just every Hideo Kojima game/franchise

@soupgirl1871

Жыл бұрын

Honestly that is the best part of the games at this point. A rollecoaster of fucking with the fanbase that somehow makes sense

This whole video is like watching a person slowly be driven to madness by the odd nature of the Metal Gear series.

When Kojima repeatedly hinted that "you are Raiden, Raiden is you", i think he also was implying the mental break that ensues

@rayojordan2838

4 ай бұрын

This is all about the art of story telling about the psyche!!! Ego - Super Ego - I.D. In biblical lore rabbis believe that Jesus Lucifer Satan Are all the same Person… Jesus would be the higher self = Ego Satan being the Lower Self = Super Ego Lucifer being the I.D. Entity = Identity- an idea 💡

In reality Raiden's first appearance is Revengeance, as denoted by him confirming his self actualization through the lyrics "I am standing here".

@MallowyGoodness

Жыл бұрын

Anyway clearly Ghost Babel actually is canon by being non-canon canonically in-universe as real fake "what-if" scenarios designed to train the next not-snake

@chaotickid

Жыл бұрын

What

@ValiareTheForsaken01

Жыл бұрын

​@@MallowyGoodnessI think I'm too in-tune with Metal Gear's themes and narratives because I perfectly understood that.

@TheMetroidblade

Жыл бұрын

@@ValiareTheForsaken01 yeah im a kingdom hearts fan that keeps ending up in mgs videos and i understood it perfectly. seems like you just need a primer in japanese wacked outed ness.

@kendonl.taylor5111

11 ай бұрын

​@@MallowyGoodnessAre you saying Metal Gear Ghost Babel is canon?

Quote from the Raiden Wikipedia page presumably entered literally less than an hour ago as of writing… “Although Raiden made his first appearance in Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty, a post-credits dialogue at the end of the VR training mode in Metal Gear Solid: Ghost Babel implies that the player is actually Raiden, undergoing his training. There is debate over this appearance’s canonicity due to the game itself being non-canon. It is possible that the VR training mode is canon, while the main game is not.”

@GamingintheAM0801

Жыл бұрын

It's always weird seeing Metal Gear fans get so hung up on canon, because (at least prior to MGS4) the games themselves made it pretty clear that the canon didn't really matter, and that it also didn't even really *exist.* When MGS2 refers to Raiden's "VR training," they're referring to all the previous games as a whole. Like, when the Colonel is explaining the new controls for the sniper rifle, he says that it's "been changed slightly from the VR training," because the controls have literally changed since the last game. It even includes the non-canon entries, as evidenced by the A.I. Colonel quoting lines from Ghost Babel and VR Missions when he starts to go haywire. The implication of everything is that the prior games may or may not be VR missions in and of themselves, and the uncertainty of what's real and what isn't was an intentional part of what MGS2 was trying to do. And honestly, while I've never fully subscribed to the "it's all VR training" theory, I do think it's kind of a shame that MGS4 retconned that reading of the game. If MGS2 had been the canonical endpoint of the timeline like Kojima originally wanted, it would have left some really interesting discussions to this day. But no, fans just *had* to know the identity of the Patriots even though it's just the MGS version of the Illuminati and so knowing who they are defeats the point. 🤷‍♂️

@Phantom-kc9ly

Жыл бұрын

​@@GamingintheAM0801 not to mention its highly likely the big boss we see and play as in 3 and Peace Walker was Venom experiencing his brainwashing over the events that happened.

@lpfan4491

Жыл бұрын

@@Phantom-kc9ly "Snake, you can't do that! The future will be changed, you'll create a time paradox!"

@blkguy3rd

Жыл бұрын

@@GamingintheAM0801 i wonder if the only reason they establish what was and wasnt canon was so you would know where all the callbacks in 4 come from. almost like a "these are the only games that matter to get the most out of this game" sort of way

@mynameisjohnjackajoe

Жыл бұрын

@@GamingintheAM0801 You can consider whatever you want as part of the main story for yourself but what matters in the end is what the original creator and author considers to be canon and Kojima was always pretty clear that only the games he directed are part of it. That doesn't mean that the other games suck or don't necessarily fit into the overall story. It's just Kojimas story and vision, so while talking about the series, the story, characters, it's themes etc. it's important to keep that in mind. That's why mgs fans "get so hung up on canon". Even Kojima himself wants to make the difference clear between the "A Hideo Kojima Games" and the ones where he was maybe at most a producer.

There are so many interlocking layers to this that even if all of this wasn't planned by Kojima, it's exactly the type of thing he'd want to plan.

Given that "Jack" can also be a name for Big Boss, who would likely be going through rehabilitation after the events of Metal Gear 2, You could also argue that Ghost Babel doesn't star Raiden at all.

@marvelsandals4228

Жыл бұрын

Oh my god, you're right. How the hell did I forget that Big Boss' name was also Jack? I suppose his name probably wasn't confirmed until Metal Gear Solid 3, so in truth they named Raiden first, then later decided to give Big Boss the same name, but still, it is fascinating that they share the same name. Big Boss and Snake share the same genes (sort of), but Big Boss and Raiden share the same name (again, sort of). Who is the protagonist of Ghost Babel? Jack. That fact doesn't answer the question, it just opens up more questions. Which Jack? Raiden? Big Boss? Or some OTHER character named Jack? This franchise is madness

@craggylotus

11 ай бұрын

@@marvelsandals4228 Wasn't Raiden raised by Solidus (at least a child soldier for him)? It's possible Solidus named the kid after his "dad".

@wintermute8315

11 ай бұрын

Why would an ageing Big Boss be put through VR simulations of the soldier that was cloned from him? Who is putting him through these simulations? Makes no sense. It's Raiden.

@awesomegaymer5786

10 ай бұрын

​@@wintermute8315we crossed a line of what makes sense a long time ago.

@nouche

10 ай бұрын

@@wintermute8315: It does make no sense but hey, he’s playing video games cuz he’s proud of his big boy! Yes, like we both said. Makes no sense. That’s just the beauty of non-canon parallel universes. Remember you have to go through a stupid Donkey Kong minigame to get that line of dialogue to even show up~

Tonight on VG Myths, GameChamp does not answer a video game myth but turns into matpat and the agonising transition causes her to go on an insane rant about the game boy colour and how Konami makes the number 4 say a name before it was in 2

@rlocks7253

Жыл бұрын

​@@turkish8969 she's Transfem, and she uses she/her pronouns I believe

@CallMeDoc_

Жыл бұрын

@Rlocks she / they, last I checked. mightve swapped more recently tho EDIT: thanks to Baqly, gamechamp is using She/Her. last I had checked was at least 6 months.

@rlocks7253

Жыл бұрын

@@CallMeDoc_ ah, apologies, forgot exactly so was going with what I remember!

@baqly

Жыл бұрын

@@CallMeDoc_ looking at her recent streams she has a banner that says she her pronouns, so she is going by she her!

@MxPokirby

Жыл бұрын

@@turkish8969 What sounds do genders make?

im kind of curious if this little tid bit of info is why Ghost Babble is referenced in the "glitched" codecs and also credited in the ....well credits. What if the entire game, not just the special missions is Jack's training. Trying to make a scenario similar to something Snake would encounter, only realizing that the S3 plan wouldnt work entirely unless they recreated Shadow Moses in particular. The Glitched Colonel would know of Jack's original training, which would explain why it references them *To Jack* and he would even understand the referance even if we don't. So Ghost Babble may not be cannon to the MGS story but it is canon to Jack's Story.

@segadoeswhatnintendont

6 ай бұрын

Babble? Minor spelling mistake, you're wrong, i win

Reminds me of how Captain Falcon "technically" first appeared in the original snes game, even though I'm pretty sure you never actually see him in-game; instead just as a shadow through the cockpit's window.

@kyoai

Жыл бұрын

He was mentioned and depicted in the manual, which also had a comic introducing the world of F-Zero.

Let's not forget that when the AI Colonel is going crazy because of GW corrupting, he does mention Galuade. Also, in MGS4, the description of the FiveSeven handgun mentions that it was used by Snake when he infiltrated Galuade... Perhaps the lie was about the canonicity (or lack thereof) of Ghost Babel...

the last sentence of this video before the patreon credits is such a power move

@calvinwithak7514

Жыл бұрын

KZreadrs who make video essays on crazy topics enjoy watching KZreadrs who make video essays on crazy topics. Huh, who would have thought?

@KyrieFortune

11 ай бұрын

yo, it's the W guy

@nouche

10 ай бұрын

jan Misali’s here, hiiiiii! I just recently discovered that I do enjoy many of the videos that you make, so cool you watch Gamechamp too!

Raiden's actual first appearance is in Metal Gear Solid 4. The guy in MGS2 wasn't Raiden yet. He was just Jack, using the code name Raiden. In MGS4 he was truly Raiden, at that point.

@pokkiheart

Жыл бұрын

not to be confused with raikov. I love this series.

@douglaswatson4234

Жыл бұрын

Fucking cringe. What, Snake wasn't Solid Snake until he beat Big Boss?

@ravenrealm718

Жыл бұрын

Until part-way through 4 where he sort of ditches the Raiden name to call himself Lightning before finally coming to terms with his name being Jack at the end, only to then pick up the name Raiden again in Revengeance before once again dropping back to Jack right before fighting Monsoon... Metal Gear truly is a series of all time

@thebiolibrary5572

Жыл бұрын

@@ravenrealm718 He drops back to Jack "the ripper" specifically when Sam and Monsoon call him out for being a psycho-murderer, so he decides to be a psycho-murderer to kill Monsoon but then everybody just calls him Jack as in Jack because Jack is his real name

@clashmanthethird

Жыл бұрын

This was the moment Jack became Heisenberg

This is a very subtle and hidden Easter egg gets unlikely that most people would even notice. Even those who played this game and saw that reference wouldn't know that they were being deceived by the trailers

So what I learned today is Gamechamp has a compulsion to play video games in release order due to fear of missing context, and potentially feels insecure about it to the point of making a video to justify how her brain works. That probably seems stupid to a neurotypical, but it makes total sense to me.

@LiquidSevens

Жыл бұрын

i totally feel her... i first played MGS out of order and ever since then ive decided to play games like this (within reason)

@KasumiRINA

11 ай бұрын

I want to play in story order. So MGS5 before MGS4, the two I missed.

@awesomegaymer5786

10 ай бұрын

So did gamechamp play all of Zelda and mario including spinoffs to get to botw and odyssey or is that just a random exception? It seems kind of random to have played 50ish Mario and 30ish Zelda but 3 pokemon

The complete breakdown and back and forth between what the plot and reality even is is the most Metal Gear Solid 2 thing to do in a video essay involving Metal Gear Solid 2.

I'm so used to madness at this point that I managed to follow along during this entire descent into madness.

@jeeBisOkay

Жыл бұрын

This kind of psychotic theorizing is commonplace in other games I like so it's pretty easy to understand lol

@johncameron1935

Жыл бұрын

That entire legend of zelda segment was so entirely on point. Though I wish there'd been reference to Link among the rest of the clutter.

Imagine some kid actually named Jack getting extremely confused at that ending cutscene

This vid has the kind of manic energy I live for. "Who-even-knows-ish-ness" is a great new word

So princess peach wasn’t in another castle, those bastards

Raiden’s first apperence is in a quantum superposition of ghost babel and sons of liberty

Even as someone who beat Ghost Babel my mind is absolutely blown

I’m guessing they had a rough idea of what the story was going to be for MGS2, due to the ending of Ghost Babel and also, the video game, Metal Gear Solid VR missions, where, when you beat the game, you are rewarded with a “confidential” image, schematics for Metal Gear Ray. Also in that same game, the area where you take photos of Naomi and Mei Ling, resembles the area on Arsenal Gear where you fight all the Rays.

I love that, after the halfway point, the video was "Gamechamp loses her mind for 10 minutes straight"

@XDWX

11 ай бұрын

"her"?

@Istaly17

11 ай бұрын

​@@XDWXthat kept confusing me to the narrator refered to herself as she

@mr.jitterspam9552

11 ай бұрын

​@@Istaly17they use female pronouns

@gamerskingdom4897

2 ай бұрын

​@Istaly17 there a girls I don't get the confusion

I think I already got completely lost at the mere MENTION of Ghost Babel. The fact that it exists in the first place already fried my brain, not even to mention the fact that Jack is somehow in... YEAH, I AM SO CONFUSED.

Man you really stretched this video to 26 min just to say "Raiden was referenced in Ghost Babel"

A thing I find funny is that if Raiden took what Snake told him to heart, and he heard to nerds arguing which Jack was the first he would probably slap both of them in the back of their heads.

Sometime before MGS2's release (i forget how long, it was such a long time ago), Official Playstation 2 Magazine UK had a huge reveal about Raiden. It was actually pretty cool - the several pages of info were sealed at the outer edge in a sort of perforated cardboard security thing - you had to tear it away to get into the pages about Raiden. No other mention of him anywhere else in the magazine - just lots of talk about "it's a huge spoiler, so don't open it unless you wanna know." And, like, it wasn't a leak or something, it was clear that preview was sanctioned. I actually didn't know until watching this video that it was considered completely new to players that Raiden was the main character. I've been trying to google around and figure out exactly which issue of the magazine it was but i'm coming up empty.

@MixMasterLar

Жыл бұрын

I've heard before that they didn't particularly try to hide it for the PAL release of the game since it was already in two regions and the internet existed. Not sure how true that really is, though

@alsokyle

Жыл бұрын

@@MixMasterLar That's probably true - it certainly makes a lot of sense! I forgot that PAL regions used to get games so much later.

Damn dude, I really should play the original MGS games. I knew they had good writing and lessons and stuff, but I never knew they staight up had "here's what you do when you don't know who you are, when the entire world is lieing to you, and when you have no footing under yourself to make meaningful forward progress". You just sorta do it anyways.

Also remember that Raiden's codename was always Snake up until the beginning of the Plant chapter, where AI Campbell changed it to Raiden to not confuse him with the "Snake" that infiltrated the big shell before Raiden did.

I absolutely love the idea that the entirety of Ghost Babel was part of Raiden's VR training.

Raiden's wikipedia page now says his first appearance is Ghost Babel.

would that make the noncanon Ghost Babel to canonically be Raiden's VR Mission training when he was a child? he's always been fed information that are somewhat incorrect or censored, so could the story of Ghost Babel be written off as a sort of alternate retelling of the events before the Shadow Moses incident being given to Raiden to both train and feed him wrong information? idk, food for thought

@Vanity0666

Жыл бұрын

Ghost Babel is part of the "Legend of Snake" or "Snake Tales" Raidens VR training for the Shadow Moses scenario is Twin Snakes

@Vanity0666

Жыл бұрын

The goal of the Patriots wasn't to create more clones of Solid Snake, it was to create super soldiers who were trained off of the legends of people, through a combinatory selection of memetic data and gene editing, to surpass the reality of what Snake as a human being amounted to and progress into mythological beings (which results in the creation of the Beauty and Beast Corps)

Wouldn't MG Ghost Babel being a noncanon spinoff actually make so much sense in the canonical lore if the whole game is actually just alternate VR training for Jack/Raiden?? Like the special stage truly revealed that this whole time you play as Jack "playing" as Solid Snake. Even after MGS2, this whole identity inception player thing actually become the main theme for MGSV as you the player literally "playing" as The Medic/Venom Snake who is "playing" as Big Boss/Naked Snake. This concept even become a key slogan for Kojima Productions, we are the "homo ludens," as the man who play...

First video of yours I've ever come across, but I absolutely loved it, earned my sub, especially the "I made the mistake of watching the cutscene of the game I'm actually playing" then the large pause

Is Ghost Babel non-canon in that the events didn't actually take place and were just a simulation? Or non-canon in that everything in the game didn't take place, including Jack doing the VR missions? For that matter, weren't there VR missions in Metal Gear Solid 1s bonus disks? The one part of Integral? What if you're playing as Raiden in those VR missions and not Snake? What if this entire time you have been playing as Raiden but in VR, and all of MGS1 was a VR mission????????

@Shantae1188

Жыл бұрын

Everything in the game didn’t take place.

@ultralight9625

Жыл бұрын

Simple everytime you where playing as both solid snake completing the real mission and jack completing the VR recreations of those real mission. Aka schrödinger's snake.

@NeO_SaNdMaN4040

Жыл бұрын

This is kinda the whole idea behind MGS2. Too bad people didn’t realize it then, but nowadays? Its one of the greatest games in terms of theming.

@pokkiheart

Жыл бұрын

"No Ghost Babel was not a VR mission unless you subscribe to the idea Raiden was playing a VR mission as himself playing a VR mission and get out of my house!"

@GamingintheAM0801

Жыл бұрын

Congratulations, you just realized the entire point of MGS2's story. If you bother to listen to any of the optional Codec calls, the Colonel basically slaps us in the face with "the last game was all VR."

20 years later and MGS2 is still finding new ways to absolutely *break* peoples brains 😂

The "first appearance" line on the wikipedia page was changed to Ghost Babel, but then later reverted with the comment "how is Raiden in Ghost Babel?"

I love this kind of weird, technically pointless, but fascinating trivia and games history lmao. Thanks GameChamp!

The whole canon thing of Ghost Babel is a hard one to fully grappled with since its hinted at in many other games. Like in MGS2, when the Colonel AI goes crazy, he sometimes uses the Ghost Babel portrait, and can tell Raiden to infiltrate the Fortress Galuade. There's also a poster based on Babel's Box art in a room on the Big Shell. And even crazier, rereleases of Original MG2 use new portraits for everyone except Snake and Cambell. They reuse the Ghost Babel Portraits instead! Along with that, MGS4 has the Five Seven, and its description mentions Snake used it in the infiltration of Fortress Galuade, but it doesn't mention that its also used in AC!D 1&2, which came out earlier as well! There's so much that talks about Ghost Babel that no one really notices in the end

@wollins7244

Жыл бұрын

It’s a fun reference in the other games but it is confirmed to be non-canon by Kojima himself

@Tman2bard

Жыл бұрын

@@wollins7244 yeah yeah "Its non-canon but I can't help making people double think since I shove so much shit in it"

@marvelsandals4228

Жыл бұрын

@@wollins7244 But I think the whole point of this game and many of Kojima's creative decisions were deliberately to toy with the concept of canon. For example, in Metal Gear Solid 1, the player can fail the torture mini game, and the ending is different, with Meryl dying at Shadow Moses. Then later it is confirmed that Meryl is alive and well. How can that be if the player lived the events of the game firsthand and saw her die? Was the whole game not reality, but just an alternate reality similar to the real timeline? In truth, they can do that at any time, presenting a "timeline" where events we KNOW are true apparently didn't happen the way we think it did. For example, in MGS2 the Colonel during the Codec calls was not the real Colonel, but a creation by the AI of "GW" to guide Raiden's actions. Then in MGS4 the Colonel (to be vague about the details) knows Rose well and it is implied that they have worked together in the past, perhaps on Raiden's mission...but that's impossible, we KNOW the real Colonel wasn't involved. The more you replay these games and think about the details the less sure you are about how ANY of these storylines could possibly be reconciled as one true canon.

@KasumiRINA

11 ай бұрын

@@Tman2bard Psycho Mantis also mentions you loving Castlevania among other things and Snake catches monkeys and laments that Gabe (Syphon Filter) and Sam (Splinter Cell) weren't available. These are just Easter Eggs, references to other games. Don't overthink it. All games do it, and people just react as "gotcha, you made a Star Wars reference here" but we MGS fans go "OH WHAT DID KOJIMA MEANT WITH THIS". xD

I mean, even in MGS2 there's a callback to Ghost Babel through the Colonel AI telling Snake to rescue the hostages from the fortress Galuade.

@GamingintheAM0801

Жыл бұрын

There's actually three more! When he tells you about a fork in the conveyer belt, and when he tells you to destroy the power plant with C4, which are objectives from Ghost Babel, and the weird story about the man named Two-Point Five is also from a secret Easter egg in Ghost Babel as well. Also, when he starts going haywire, he'll occasionally glitch out and his portrait will be replaced with the one from Ghost Babel for a frame or two.

@vierzwanzigen9722

4 ай бұрын

​@@GamingintheAM0801TIL. And some people were saying Ghost Babel wasn't a simulation Raiden played, when all those references are present in MGS2. I'm going to play Ghost Babel now, is 2.5 a shadowy figure from a codec call or what?

having never seen like any gameplay from a single metal gear solid game, watching that cutscene with the irl footage was probably the most insane thing ive seen in a long time

Came here from the Saved You A Click Post. Excellent video.

I'm just sitting back and laughing at Gamechamp driving herself crazy trying to make sense of it all.

So, realistically speaking, as an MG super fan: Kojima had some level of input in this game's development process, as he stated that he wanted to try and adapt the new MGS formula into a 2D game. The choice to have the reveal be Jack is likely a nod toward MGS2 that the writer, Tomokazu Fukushima (who was very closely involved in the writing for MGS, 2, and 3 as the Codec writer), chose to throw in since he would know the twist and find the VR mission setting appropriate. My tinfoil hat theory, on the other hand, says Fukushima was 'the man behind the man' that wrote the truly amazing stuff we've seen from the Metal Gear series, or at the very least tempered Kojima's ideas into a more tangible and substantive form, and thus deliberately chose to write his spin off with Shuyo Murata (also a common writer for the series) to include the nod toward the twist as a way of indulging the very ideas you're talking about in this video: to make the reveal an unreveal, to make the themes stronger and more powerful. It would fall perfectly in line with the fan claim that Fukushima was the one inserting the more impactful narrative behind the writing, but when we come back to reality, there's no proof for this because Fukushima receded from the public years ago. Damn good video, Miss Champ. Loved it!

@HydraRaptorCH

Жыл бұрын

Kojima is also a very openly self-indulgent guy, and given GB's referenced in MGS2, it's at the very least deliberate and something that I, personally, had never noticed.

@GamingintheAM0801

Жыл бұрын

I mean, the simple fact that the franchise's writing took a dive off a cliff after Fukushima left is all the proof I need.

@KasumiRINA

11 ай бұрын

Yeah Kojima is by no means a bad game maker, but for what it's worth, he's overrated to the point of idolization and it was the ENTIRE TEAM that made the magic work.

Also one could argue that until he was put into the field and given that code name, “Raiden” didn’t exist and thus MGS2 is actually correct in being the first appearance of “Raiden.” At the time of Ghost Babel he was simply “Jack.”

I knew about the Ghost Babel Jack reference but had NO idea how deep this went! Awesome video, I love MGS so much. Still always learning so much about the series even as a mega fan!

Love this vid! MGS2 doesn’t get much discussion about the themes! So many people get caught up in the lore, MGS fans especially, but the lore isn’t the point. It’s never the point. It’s about the memories we make and the experiences we take away, that’s life, that’s what’s important. MGS2 isn’t a game *about* misinformation, it’s a game about dealing with it. We won’t ever know everything, especially when it comes to a video games lore, we have to find our own truths to live by, make our own lives. Make it and pass on what we deem worthy. That’s the “theme” of MGS, at least that’s what I choose to believe, because that’s what I take away. At it’s core MGS2 is just a well told spy thriller that makes you empathize and question things, as all the best art does.

@GamingintheAM0801

Жыл бұрын

Super Bunnyhop put it best in his MGS2 video: "This was Kojima trying to tell his fans to stop worrying about canon and learn to love subtext."

@Buglin_Burger7878

Жыл бұрын

You're right we won't know everything, but part of our experience is trying to know and sharing what we know. It is the shared experience and lore in memory. The point of people sharing is to make a cumulative memory. A memory which much like know how to make fire might help or give others clarity in explaining their own memories.

@davisbreci5332

Жыл бұрын

Bro clearly hasn't sifted through hours and hours of mgs2 deep analysis videos

Ms. Gamerchamp, April Fool's Day is the first day of the month, not the last day. This really felt like it was an April Fool's video 😹

@autobotstarscream765

Жыл бұрын

It's not April Fool's, Kojima really did try to turn Metal Gear into Kingdom Hearts. 😂

@CoralCopperHead

11 ай бұрын

@@autobotstarscream765 ...Tried?

Wait so did no one else in the comments realize this video was uploaded on April 30th? I appreciate that mini easter egg, Ms. Gamechamp.

No way... What? I mean, I just paused the video as soon as I read "Get some rest for now... Jack" I've played all Metal Gear games, including the Game Boy Color one, when I was like 6 or 7 years old, and I didn't even speak English back then. I never re-visited this game because I thought it wasn't canon to the story line, but man, just that little subtle hint to what was going to happen in MGS2 got me off-guard. Man, I just love Kojima. Makes a 28 year old man get all nostalgic, even to this day. 🥲 Now I will continue watching the video, you just earned a sub and a like, man!

As someone who has never played a Metal Gear Solid game nor knows much about the series as a whole, this video was extra interesting to me because it taught me so much, like MGS2'S marketing tying into the narrative themes of the game, Ghost Babel's existence, and the fact that MGS2 is on a level of mindscrew that no other piece of media will ever achieve for the rest of time, if that part of the game with all the eerie fourth wall breaks plus Gamechamp spiralling into madness when she went deeper into Raiden's "first appearance" is anything to go by.

@KasumiRINA

11 ай бұрын

There were absolutely games with more mind-breaks than MGS2, for example, Undertale, Eternal Darkness, Stanley Parable to an extent. Spec Ops: the Line can be pretty close too. I like MGS2 but only final chapter of it is weird like that. You should try playing MGS games, at least the trilogy of numbered ones (1, 2 and 3). They're kinda short, have multiple ways to complete (stealth or guns blazing) and are interesting experience. Videos about the game don't really translate that.

This feels like a month later April fools joke

I would argue that the first *reference* to raiden is ghost babel, but his first *appearance* is MGS2

I'm sure this got mentioned somewhere else in the comment section, but Ghost Babel is actively referenced in MGS2 as well. When the Colonel AI goes haywire, one of the calls you can get is THAT version of the Colonel explaining Snake's mission to "Infiltrate the Fortress Galuade". This only brings up to question if it was another simulation that the Colonel had planned, or if it's referencing a previous moment in Jack's history and training, or if it's just spouting absolute nonsense. I mean, it also pretends to be Big Boss for Operation Intrude N313, and THAT was real ... right???

I thought I literally knew everything about metal gear. Hell I even have the Fox logo tattooed on me, and had no idea about that end of Ghost Babel.

The twist is the title itself

I'm pretty sure that in Super Smash brothers ultimate its Venom Snake going through VR training to become Link.

The one quote of the guy saying Raiden appears to be “the antithesis of Snake” is so funny. Congrats man you understand the whole point

14:28 I know it was unintentional, but the voice-explosion sounded pretty cool! Video is excellent, and I like the way you presented this, great job!

I really liked this video. It's very different from your other stuff but it was interesting and thought provoking. It'd be cool if you did more stuff like this from time to time.

in mgs2 the ai colonel says stuff about ghost babel in arsenal gear "your mission is to infiltrate the fortress galuad" i remember him saying

The point of it being a simple reference being impossible because mgs2 hadn’t been released yet is silly. These games were 100% in development at the same time at the same place and by the same studio. It is neither a reference nor a spoiler for the twist, just a little teaser that only makes sense in retrospect. It’s really cool that this cheeky setup has come to light, but I would bet that even among the few that would’ve fully completed ghost Babel, fewer still would’ve made the connection lol.

Even disregarding the fact that it is non-canon, the Jack in Ghost Babel cannot be "Raiden". Oh sure, it could be the same Jack, but the codename "Raiden" did not exist in-universe until Jack was given it during the Big Shell incident. Before that point he went by the codename "Snake". Yes, this is an entirely pointless nit to pick.

this was actually mentioned on the wikipedia talk page for raiden as early as 2006

We are Raiden. There is a point that everyone seems to be missing. Metal Gear (especially MGS2) tries to blurr the line between video game and reality. With the final move of Ghost Babel, which is shifting the perspective from the video game figure Snake to the person playing this VR experience: Jack, it is de facto turning the player into Jack, as he and the real life gamer are the ones controlling this game. Using the name "Jack" also plays a role here, as it is one of the most everyday names, trying to be as ordinary and universal a name as possible. Looking at MGS2, this blurring of the lines between in-game and real life authority between Jack, Raiden and the Player, is spelled out right before us. The game even tells us to turn it off, messes with our screen. The distinction between Jack (us), Raiden and the Player gets thinner and thinner until we see our own image in the temporarily dark glas of our turned-off TVs. Kojima tries to warn us. We are made to play this war hero snake, to be a weapon, to enjoy it; but every once in a while he throws us a curveball, makes us a realise that we're just brain washed ordinary people, like in MGS5, made to believe that we're The Big Boss. Or, like in MGS2 and Ghost Babel: slowly making us realise that we're not Snake, but Raiden; not Raiden, but Jack; not Jack, but us. In the last sequence of the game, the usage of real video footage is chosen to once again bring us closer to ourselves and away from our artificial versions of the game, ending with a suggestion: to just be whatever we choose to be (and not what the game temporarily made us). Best JRF

"I haven't played past sapphire and ruby" I don't know why, but that endeared me so hard to you I subscribed.

Technically Raiden gets the codename in MGS2 after his first codename Snake. So them not calling him Raiden makes sense because....why would they? He literally gets that codename last minute on the job. Really really weird how people don't remember this

Now imagine he secretly appeared way way back in the first game as some random guard or something like.

The second half of this video was an incoherent fever dream

@GM_Darius

6 ай бұрын

That's just Metal Gear as a series in a nutshell. In this case, it's macadamia.

Oh my god. I got goosebumps when I read that part about Jack being the one in control of Solid Snake during the VR mission that was Metal gear solid: Ghost babel

I think you missed the mark. Obviously a non canon Gameboy spinoff wouldn't hint at a game that wouldn't come out for another year. Jack is clearly talking about Jack Bauer, hinting at a game that would come out 15 years later. Both Ghost Babel and 24 are not canon to the mainline Metal Gear series so it's pretty clear that they're connected.

this video is an hour old the wikipedia page has already been updated

Such a great video! My eyes were glued to the screen in anticipation for the next twist!

I’m so disappointed in my myself for not watching GameChamp’s Non-VG myths videos earlier, they are so good!

It’s very interesting seeing a new perspective about something everyone has taken as fact. I also love Metal Gear. Good job on the new content!

Am I the only one that thinks that GC does a pretty good Solid Snake impression. At a few points, I honestly thought she got David Hayter to make a cameo

wow youtube just straight up didn't give me a notification for this what the hell, i thought it was still in the works!

So basically at the end, you're saying that it doesn't matter what you believe. It's like MGS2 Snake said: it doesn't matter if you were right or wrong, it's about faith. You believed this is what happened, and that's sufficient.