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@TheOriginalEviltech

2 жыл бұрын

Your battery capacity is wrong. The battery can't be 5200 Ah. It is in mAh. Fix the commercial before more people notice.

@markplott4820

2 жыл бұрын

FLOW batteries are experiential, and FLOW batteries difficult to scale. Tesla MEGAPACK is already profitable, and Tesla will reduce costs with LFP cells. FLOW batteries is FAKE NEWS.

@markplott4820

2 жыл бұрын

DaVinci is a Cereal Box Engineer. gives REAL Engineer ELON a bad name.

@yamafanboy

2 жыл бұрын

did you discuss stock options with them while you were there?

@sinisterfire6641

2 жыл бұрын

Wait wait wait. 5200ah battery?!? Is that thing a super hero battery bank?!?!?

I’m an old mechanical engineer and have been into this stuff for 30 years….This seems like the best option I’ve seen so far - it will be low cost, will last for a very lomg time, will not mess up the environment and will provide power over a long duration - time to invest!!!

@mattmills7867

2 жыл бұрын

Do your homework before sinking any money into flow batteries. I worked on an Imergy (now bankrupt) vanadium redox battery a few years back. Energy efficiency was an awful 60% due to the pumps and fans. Efficiency only gets worse if you're not cycling it daily. I know they sold a lot of them in India because of their unreliable grid. There are few viable use cases IMO.

@lkytmryan

2 жыл бұрын

The best option so far is nuclear but the party of science is preventing its use even though climate change is supposed to be a world ending disaster.

@willm5814

2 жыл бұрын

@@mattmills7867 Thanks for the advice, hopefully the efficiency of things on the mechanical end will improve!

@willm5814

2 жыл бұрын

@@lkytmryan I'm concerned that Nuclear will end up making a small handful of people rich, they will control the power, who gets it, who doesn't and what does it cost. Solar/Wind have a much better chance for a power to belong to everyone. That being said, I think we will end up with a baseline of Nuclear. I think it would be smart to have a baseline supply of nuclear in the 25% range. There has been a lot of work to make nuclear safer, more modular and more affordable. With just normal innovation/improvement on the combination of wind, solar and storage it will increasingly difficult for nuclear to compete from a straight economics standpoint. With Elon's mega-packs they can't compete now.

@ScottLaneSabineParish

2 жыл бұрын

@@lkytmryan I don't think "party" has anything to do with the general failures of the human intellect that include confirmation bias. Yes, the left may tend to have more "anti-nuclear", but the right has the "anti-vaccine". These are just two examples of a single aspect of a much larger group of logical failures. Tribalism, Dunning-Krueger... the list is long and exhausting. I personally agree that from a purely statistical and scientific aspect, Nuclear should be a part of the solution.

You've done a really good job walking us through the engineering and business tradeoffs, which is a breath of fresh air not just on KZread, but in technology reporting generally. Thank you for this work!

@TwoBitDaVinci

2 жыл бұрын

🙏

@bknesheim

2 жыл бұрын

@@TwoBitDaVinci Some real numbers would have been nice. For now this is just a pay in sky type of technology. For example: - How many ton of raw material is needed to store a GW/hour? - What is the largest installation they have done. - How long have they run at what cost. Not projected cost, but some real numbers - How has the cost scaled from the start until the latest installations. - What factor they expect for maintenance cost compared to installation cost.

@krietor

2 жыл бұрын

@@bknesheim Here: ??????????? - I recently stocked up on them. Take those. Don't worry about returning them. I have plenty, and they're free where I'm from.

How about numbers to compare with other battery farms: size, weight, maintenance cost, etc. What percentage of output powers the kidney pumps? Are the reusing shipping containers? Can one large tank replace many small tanks? Temperature impacts? GREAT TOPIC!

@harshbatheja

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah he didn't even talk about efficiency when that's the most important point, just a promotional video for the business I guess.

@635574

2 жыл бұрын

@@harshbatheja actually its more about installation cost and maintenance whether it competes with traditional packs.

@ScottLaneSabineParish

2 жыл бұрын

@@harshbatheja I assume that you are referring to RT or "round trip" efficiencies? That is the aspect with ESS and other flow cell technologies that most influence the LCOE (Levelized Cost of Energy) They are not as efficient as Lithium Ion forms and that is one aspect that influences the need to increase size to offset the value. It is also an aspect of energy density. Generally, they tend to be in the 70% to 75% range which is less than other common types of storage but as the value does not decrease with each cycle, there is a large cost savings over the duration of the project. The real gain in value is that while the size of the connection, say 1MW will require a bit more space than the same value of Lithium Ion, the gain in time (MWhrs) is far, far better than Lithium Ion for example, Lithium Ion is generally set on a 2hr value (1MW over 2 hrs is equal to 2MWhrs). For the Lithium model, to go to 4 hrs would require doubling the number of batteries and thus size, the ESS system is just more electrolyte in the existing package. This goes up to about 12 hrs per package for ESS. Imagine the number of Lithium Ion batteries required for a 12 hr discharge capability? Another benefit of ESS is that you can completely discharge the battery (last 10% with a voltage drop) without damaging the cells. Just recharge and off you go. Sorry, I am excited for these guys. A GW or 2 of storage, strategically placed in the ERCOT market, could have solved so many of the problems from last year.

@infiction7651

2 жыл бұрын

This is the only things I wanted to know

@martinwinlow

2 жыл бұрын

@@ScottLaneSabineParish Well, here in the UK, everyone is raving about 'green hydrogen' and how we can use our renewables to make it for use in fuel cell vehicles as well as to replace our serious dependance on natural gas and kerosene for hot water and space heating (which accounts for about 70% of the UKs total energy use). So, even at 75% RT efficiency, it is 2.5 times better than green H2's 30% (at best). The infrastructure cost of flow batteries would also be a fraction of H2's...

It looks very promising for grid-scale storage. I like the concept, particularly the design flexibility. One could imagine having a large plant-like installation where the proton pump and electrolyte massaging is done on a larger scale, I don't see any particular advantage in the shipping container model where each container must replicate the mechanical bits. At least not for something like this. It makes sense for a lithium cell, but any time you have mechanical components you have to think about economies of scale. -Matt

@briandbeaudin9166

2 жыл бұрын

Why not use 1 trailer for the mechanicals and daisychain the liquid cell containing trailers together.

@ScottLaneSabineParish

2 жыл бұрын

They have two basic set ups. Their original solution was in a small 20' con-ex that grew to a 40' container that was stackable up to 2 or 3 units high. They still offer the container units, but their focus is buildouts indoors with the electrolyte solution stored outside in tanks. There are still applications for the con-ex solution, especially for temp solutions or dispatchable solutions in an area that has lost transmission, such as after a hurricane or other natural disaster. They may also be preferable to a facility that doesn't have indoor capacity but a large lot.

@NaumRusomarov

2 жыл бұрын

@@ScottLaneSabineParish that is kinda cool.

@frontiervirtcharter

2 жыл бұрын

The shipping container model gives you modularity.. Need to expand? Truck in a container, or five or ten . Pumps starting to wear out? Replace one container at a time without shutting down your entire storage. And the other advantage of modularity .. economy of production scale. Instead of a custom-sized build for each customer depending on how big they are, you can build and/or order batches of identical parts and crank these things out assembly-line style.

@ticthak

2 жыл бұрын

@@briandbeaudin9166 Integrated modules prevent single point-of-failure risks.

I have been following this technology from the beginning. It's the only battery worth using for grid storage. 40 years from now I think you will see them being used in homes too.

It looks like they recently signed a contract with some big fish to deploy 2GWh of batteries by 2026. Let's hope they don't fuck this up.

@westtexas806

2 жыл бұрын

All the ones prior have fucked it up. Hype propaganda can't produce results.

@bobbygetsbanned6049

2 жыл бұрын

@@westtexas806 It's not like it even matters if they fuck it. We already have cheap reliable power, people just choose to hate it. It's hilarious how people create a problem then act like it's actually important to get their fabricated problem fixed.

@olegil2

2 жыл бұрын

@@bobbygetsbanned6049 Coal is not cheap, it comes with some heavy pollution which has a cost. Nuclear is not cheap, it comes with heavy regulations (which is good, otherwise it wouldn't be reliable). Wind, solar and hydro complement each other very well, but you need SOME base load, and a few installations like that will be enough once wind, solar and hydro are widespread enough. Hydro CAN be a long term base load, if dams are installed. But those are not cheap, and come with some disadvantages. For minimal dam size in rivers, hydro can still be a short term base load, but right now here in Norway it's a dry spell and we're paying through the nose for our cheap hydro power. Gas and oil are better than coal, but not by that much.Unfortunately we're also exporting power to other european countries due to existing trade agreements, so we're REALLY gonna see some high prices when it gets cold in two months time. A good solution is probably to use pumped hydro where you can, batteries and solar+wind where you can't. And if you're Germany and decide to close down new power plants instead of the old ones, and also to phase out nuclear before coal, you can bugger off.

@TheOldGuyPhil

2 жыл бұрын

@@olegil2 Thorium Nuclear not Coal...

@NaumRusomarov

2 жыл бұрын

@@westtexas806 that's fine. energy storage companies are a dime a dozen.

At first I recoiled *hard* when you said these weren't feasible for home use... But then I started thinking about municipal grids, with every small town, or ward of a city has its own grid powered by its own energy sources and stored in its own local iron flow battery bank, and that could be cool. Bringing the grid down to community levels

I've been following Redflow batteries in Australia fer at least 12 years waiting for them to become viable. So many benefits at the cost of a little extra space.

@ludohamblok2678

2 жыл бұрын

So do I. We should make a fair comparison.

@patricklehoucq8193

2 жыл бұрын

I have seen YT video's on Redflow a while ago. Are they really taking off now ?

I recently passed by a wind generator farm with several hundred wind mills that stretched over twenty miles along the highway. I think that is the type of system that would benefit from this new technology. Thank you for sharing this with us.

@darkestaxe3415

2 жыл бұрын

I remember the first time I saw a wind farm along a freeway back in 2002. I was told that it, and many other wind farms in California were completely un-used because they weren't able to connect them. I now know that what they were missing then is still missing now, energy storage on a scale that will actually work with wind.

@martinhatzl9519

2 жыл бұрын

​@@darkestaxe3415 In Europe at that time we had also problems to conect offshore windfarms because the huge DC-Transformer for multible KilovoltTransmission didnt work flawless yet. These days that shouldnt be the problem anymore. But yess Storage is the key for renewables.

I just love how things are changing. How sustainable, easily procurable and environment friendly a new technology is, is one of the main questions in the interview.

I'm not sure I view this as a flow battery. It's capacity is limited by the amount of iron plated onto the anode. Once charged, the cell cannot charge more by swapping tanks. The similar is true for discharge, once the Fe is dissolved, one cannot swap a tank and continue to discharge. The cell itself determines capacity as well as power. Nothing is mentioned as to tradeoffs in capacity vs. power when designing the cell. I can't tell if there should be any or if the cell can be arbitrarily thick in order to permit plating of a large volume of iron.

@joe7272

2 жыл бұрын

So they need swappable annodes!

@Steamrick

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, they didn't mention peak power - one of the other highlights of lithium ion. The system needs to be capable of doing a full charge/discharge cycle in half a day at most or it's kind of useless for short-term storage.

@KeithBab

2 жыл бұрын

Another significant problem with this type of battery is dendrite growth. As the battery charges and metal is plated onto the anode, it doesn't plate in a flat surface but can grow spikes. it is difficult to prevent these spikes eventually growing across the battery to the cathode and short circuiting the battery. I'm sure they have a way of dealing with it, but it's one of the secrets behind their system.

@wlhgmk

2 жыл бұрын

It should be referred to as a plating battery. There is another one using Zinc Bromide which comes from Redflow in Australia. Quite a different concept than a flow battery.

@JustNow42

2 жыл бұрын

Why not? It seems quite possible to change tanks or have larger tanks.

Looks good. I'll be even more excited once they go to production, as so many times we hear about new battery technologies, and then they run into problems before they make it to market. Wishing these folks all the best.

I like everything about this battery technology except how many moving parts it has. The battery's chemistry may last a long time but what is the expected failure rate of the least durable unit in that mechanical system?

@peterzerfass4609

2 жыл бұрын

Same. I saw tubes marked 'hydrogen' during the video when they showed the 'kidneys'. That usually doesn't bode well for long term stability of anything that comes into contact with (embrittlement)

@btCharlie_

2 жыл бұрын

All power generating facilities have tons of moving parts, because they all generate electricity by spinning up turbines using flow of steam, water, or air. The exception is solar panels, and that's only when assuming you don't rotate the array towards the sun (which is arguably much less prone to errors than spinning up a reactor to 50 rotations per second). So, I'd say this new complexity is literally just replacing the old complexity and the net is at 0, especially if used in conjunction with solar panels. As compared to other batteries... well, it'd be nice if we discovered an even better way, but alas, lithium is gonna get damn expensive if we use it at this scale.

@davidmcelvain1394

2 жыл бұрын

@@btCharlie_ That seems like apples to oranges comparison to me. We aren't talking about the generation of the power. We are talking about a buffering system to allow a steady stream of energy from an unsteady source and that component is addressed more simply with other forms of battery storage that don't have many if any moving parts. I still want to know the expected failure rate of the least durable unit in that mechanical system and/or the fail rate of each of the components i.e. how much labor and replacement cost is expected vs battery systems without so many moving parts?

@btCharlie_

2 жыл бұрын

@@davidmcelvain1394 ​ Sorry, I might've made my point more convoluted than it needed to be - sure, you could use a lithium-ion array combined with solar panels and you'd have nearly no moving parts at all, but moving parts in and of themselves aren't really that big a deal, because the current mass energy generation is done with many, many moving parts and it works just fine even with the maintenance costs. And more broadly speaking, I kind of doubt the maintenance costs would outweigh the price of more exotic materials once you'd start working with them at scale, though sure, that's just a guess. I would definitely like to know the specs of the all the parts and how they compare to other batteries regardless of whether they may pose an issue or not. Lastly, if a technology pops up that is both cheap and straightforward, that'd be just great. Sadly, it hasn't done so yet.

@acmefixer1

2 жыл бұрын

@@peterzerfass4609 Huge amounts of hydrogen are stored and transported in industry to make ammonia for fertilizer. The industry uses mild (low carbon) steel without problems or "embrittlement" which is apparently something Big Oil has tried to use to scare people with F U D. This is nonsense. The only concerns are, as he said, the pumps and equipment with moving parts. One other thing that seems to be a concern is that not connecting batteries in series means that the 1.1 volts DC must have large copper conductors so it might take a lot of copper for the electronics.

Red flow has been doing flow batteries in Australia 🇦🇺 for a while now.

Neat video- Powerwalls do have moving parts, coolant pump and fans (I believe you said “…no moving parts”) it’s definitely important that residential systems have little to no maintenance, Tesla plus most other modern residential systems are effectively maintenance free, there are differences of course.

I have been watching many videos about solar panels, and climate change and I've been worried about the storage problem for solar, watching this new solution being developed feels great!!!!

@flagmichael

2 жыл бұрын

From an ecological standpoint, hydrogen distribution and storage make far more sense. Eliminate high voltage transmission entirely, eliminate battery chemicals altogether, safe storage.

@martinhatzl9519

2 жыл бұрын

@@flagmichael Hydrogen-handling and transporting is worse then electricityhandling and transport

RedFlow have been doing this for a while in AUS. Interesting.

@rocksteadfarm

2 жыл бұрын

Redflow batteries are zinc bromine redox flow batteries, and they produce both grid scale and domestic units.

I am a huge fan of flow batteries and using such abundant materials is the path. You did a great job with tank size and pump size for power over time and power. I hope you will keep up with these folks. Thank you Ricky!

I came across ESS a few years ago and was really excited, but nothing really seemed to happen with them. Still hoping they take off, it is really cool tech.

YESSS!!! The hunt for wisdom and understanding continues! Great work!

Great video, huge flow battery fan. A suggestion for a future video is charging highways for electric vehicles, it seems every time anyone talks electric, it comes down to charging times and range anxiety.

Thank you! Nice to hear some positive news.

Good presentation. As far as domestic applications are concerned I would not be too quick to dismiss this potential use. Consider refrigeration and air-conditioning. When they were first invented they were huge noisy machines that required much maintenance and now every house virtually has at least one of each. Maybe they can refine these flow batteries for smaller utilities and homes.

@GeeDeeBird

Жыл бұрын

Good point. And let's not forget the possibilities of nanomachine technology. It may be, in some (far?) distant future, we have inexpensive, non-toxic, scalable power cells made up of hundreds, thousands, or millions of microscopic ion pump batteries with nanopumps moving a few molecules of an electrolyte across a few molecules of iron - producing tiny fractions of a volt each - but fully scalable (on micro and macro levels), and good for decades. "If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost. That is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them." Henry David Thoreau

I think that this could be used in areas where power outages are common, especially in the shipping container form factor. I can imagine them being disturbed based upon capacity to various neighborhoods. It could also be able to help increase the effectiveness of grid tie residential solar, by giving a place for excess solar storage closer to the site of production decreases the line loses from the power having to travel to a larger facility.

Great video, this sounds very promising. I would love to see an AMBRI vs ESS technology comparison (not how, but how well). Love what you're doing.👍

@TwoBitDaVinci

2 жыл бұрын

that a good idea Doug thank you!

Very exciting technology. Perfect for dealing with varying yield from solar and wind. And on the moving parts issue a Tesla Powerwall has liquid cooling with pumps, radiator, and hoses that occasionally need maintenance.

my second video from this channel. This is one of the most promising solar technology I have seen, so far. subscribed.

@TwoBitDaVinci

2 жыл бұрын

Glad to hear it Robert!

You didn't mention whether or not these batteries can be charged to 100% and discharged to zero without any damage. Presumably, they would be similar to the ZnBr plating batteries which can be fully charged and discharged. They are made by Redflow in Australia and come in 10kWh units that are suitable for homes, either singly or severally.

@acmefixer1

2 жыл бұрын

They have tanks of electrolyte so they can scale the tank size to make the battery run longer. It doesn't seem to need to be charged to 100% and discharged to zero.

@rpf276

9 ай бұрын

That is a good point about Redflow ZnBr flow battery 100% discharge. Here another good point on the electrochemistry of why battery power goes down, i.e. the buildup of charge imbalance decreases overall charge imbalance between anode and cathode, and how flow batteries can use mitigating techniques to address the imbalance. I would be interesting to see if Redflow is also looking into any charge imbalance mitigation for ZnBr.

Could I get this for my home battery? I'm not worried about the maintenance of checking for leaks or occasionally replacing a pump.

Love these ep you have good points to your subjects rock on !

Thank you for this video; convinced me to go in heavy on ESS

Great video! Storage on a huge scale is, of course, the critical link in renewable energy - there’s more than enough energy available from the sun in solar panels and wind provided it can be kept until needed. There are many chemistries that hold promise if the requirement for high energy density is not an issue: exciting times ahead.

@martinhatzl9519

2 жыл бұрын

yess

@MrGicer

2 жыл бұрын

Have you examined the Ambri Battery that started in M.I.T?

I have been responding to utility scale RFP's with an ESS product option for about 7 years. They have almost always gone with a short duration, higher LCOE lithium Ion option. Why? Exposure to media and because everyone they know does it that way. It has been frustrating and I suck at sales. I have been an avid ESS convert since about 2015 and a big shout out to my friends with ESS. Also congrats on the $300M contract and time to expand again!

@ccibinel

2 жыл бұрын

Both this video and the website fail to show any details of what makes the solution uniquely capable. It would seem well suited for long duration storage (perhaps even beyond the day /night cycle) but without public information and reference installs I can see why people would be skeptical. Lion is relatively proven. Solutions like this, green hydrogen, cryogenic air, aluminum air, sodium batteries and the ambri liquid metal battery are all great in theory but need hard numbers and strong reference clients to take off at economical scale. Market confidence will require basically gifting it to a startup client (requires capital) or two, more open marketing and a strong technical advantage. Details like round trip efficiency, cost, maintenance projections, modularity, power, energy, response speed and losses for long term storage are critical. Snake oil solutions have managed to secure contracts and failed misurably which obviously makes people nervous (ie stacking heavy concrete blocks then deconstructing it)

@ScottLaneSabineParish

2 жыл бұрын

If you are interested, I can google some info for you. To be brutally honest, most of us are lazy and won't do our homework. For most of the projects that I have offered ESS as an LiIon alternative, the data, resources, access to data, etc., were available, but most corporations at a certain size, will develop a culture of "don't rock the boat" and don't do more than you have to. I know that many of the proposals were considered, but in the end, the engineering review's had to sell it to management and then possibly reissue the RFP for others to list as an option and it was just easier and quicker to use LiIon. That and I am just not a salesperson.

@Barskor1

2 жыл бұрын

The worst thing to happen to a good idea is not that it be skillfully attacked but that it be ineptly defended. Fredric Bastiat

Bring on the competition! We can only benefit. Customers will decide! Thanks for bringing the concept forward!

I had never heard of such a thing as this battery. Very educational.. Thanks

I love this technology, I cant wait to have this available to the projects I work on. I am however a little concerned about their janky hardware-store bought PVC piping for hydrogen lines. Hopefully they will put in proper piping in their production versions, as I am afraid this will be an explosion hazard from hydrogen gas leaks.

@wendellbabin6457

2 жыл бұрын

Not to mention hydrogen accumulating in a slow leak. Then you have a 40 ft. fuel-air pipe bomb.

Damn, you put this out 4 days late on IPO. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

@stupid1557

2 жыл бұрын

Damn, didn't know it just IPOed, still buying it though

Great content, great presentation, clear and concise.

GOOD NEWS~ just what we all needed. thanks!

This was a good video, and I do like ESS' tech, but they are very much an outlier as far as flow batteries go. If you are going to do a video about flow batteries, the focus really should be on "standard" vanadium flow batteries, which have been installed for utility use. Good stuff.

@TwoBitDaVinci

2 жыл бұрын

Good feedback I’ll definitely cover others in the future

@johnramirez5032

2 жыл бұрын

@@TwoBitDaVinci you are doing great and im rooting for you. Your technology is one of the cleanest in the world ive seen. The answers to the energy needs will come from different sources. At least for now. Keep going and know there is a need for your system. Where there is a will there is a way. Custoner support will be key to building your business

I guess I don't see why it wouldn't be feasible for a home installation. We have air conditioners and heaters and water heaters and all kinds of other things that have moving parts and require maintainance. Why not our electricity storage as well?

@TwoBitDaVinci

2 жыл бұрын

The space required would also be an issue. Grid scale energy storage is the big winner for this tech. But yah you’re right no reason it couldn’t

@docwatson1134

2 жыл бұрын

Since it seems unlikely consumer size units would be offered, for insurance and liability if nothing else. The homeowner would need to buy one of the standard semi trailer size modules and park it in the side yard. If that fits thier needs and county zoning allows, then sure why not? The modules will run themselves, and the app on your tablet will give real time status, and alarms when maintenance is needed.

@bendirval3612

2 жыл бұрын

@@docwatson1134 I bet they could get it to fit reasonably well in a basement and they seem safe enough. That's kind of what I would have in mind. I could easily see living in a home where my roof is mostly solar and my basement has a big liquid battery.

Excellent factual helpful discussions. Most appreciated.

I love learning from your videos.

I would like to know how these compare to Redflow's Zinc bromine flow batteries, I think they have the worlds smallest residential flow battery.

@RANDOMNATION907

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you. THAT is what I was looking for.

If this was an investor pitch, I would have said just take the money! Very well balance presentation and explanation.

@kinzieconrad105

2 жыл бұрын

And that why you are not an investor. They are clearly selling snake oil.

@SashaXXY

2 жыл бұрын

@@kinzieconrad105 How can you tell? They don't even have to be profitable with all the green subsidies it is going to get. Governments are dishing out big bucks on stuff like this. The carbon credit market is entirely artificial but it is there and just getting started. There is money to be made there. Does it matter if its made by a viable business or a political gimmick, from an investor's standpoint? Money is money.

19:00 YES!! I have been following flow battery technology for a couple years. I think this is an exceptional opportunity. I hope that it could make it's way to home storage though. Just another appliance, but with monitoring and dispatch of a technician. You get you A/C serviced every few years, right? Add some monitoring equipment to dispatch a technician and repairs get billed over 12 months so even a surprise issue doesn't hurt so bad.

Terrific video; definitely a need for flow batteries!

There will be a small shed sized residential battery I'm sure...just have to compartmentalize the moving parts into one unit that can be switched out with a spare. Send the broken one in for replacement and the depot fixes it and returns it to service.

Great video, but can we hear the round trip efficiency and the energy and power densities?

@marlonmartins82

2 жыл бұрын

that is the only thing i was waiting for

@joe7272

2 жыл бұрын

Of course not!

@joe7272

2 жыл бұрын

since they are a water-salt-iron battery it is probably SUPER SUPER low. Since it's grid scale it doesn't matter, build 3 million gallons of tank capacity. Salt batteries have worse power density and iron have bad power to weight. You are likely stuck with the downsides of both to make it work.

@13thbiosphere

2 жыл бұрын

The only thing that matters is price per kilowatt ..... Power density is irrelevant

@joe7272

2 жыл бұрын

@@13thbiosphere You get the cheap cost of bulk materials (sodium and iron) and the manufacturing costs are far less per kwh. Sodium ion batteries are only 30-40% cheaper than lithium because most of the cost is complexity and specialty of materials.

That's pretty awesome man I'm glad I watched this video

while we dealing with the challenges of the entire grid, in addition for pick-shaving/energy-shifting etc., are there solutions for ancillary services to the grid, like FFR , virtual inertia, etc. that the flow battery can provide (abilities similar to lithium-ion) regardless the size of course?

Thank you for interviewing the people who are making this tech. Great episode. I hope this tech works out with the plentiful resources this tech uses. Is there a safety issue with the hydrogen that's a byproduct?

@AndrewThoesen

2 жыл бұрын

They mentioned that solution; the hydrogen is necessarily reinserted into the solution by the proton pump to maintain pH and electrolyte balance.

@Architeuthis87

2 жыл бұрын

@@AndrewThoesen I understand that. However, hydrogen is small and leaks through almost anything containing it. Is it in a form that is combustible if it leaks out?

@acmefixer1

2 жыл бұрын

@@Architeuthis87 Hydrogen is stored and transported in industry to make ammonia for fertilizer. They use mild, low carbon steel without any problems of embrittlement or leakage. This seems to be a scare tactic from Big Oil to put fear, uncertainty and doubt into people's minds. Nonsense!

How much energy does one of those container sized modules hold? And granted, costs should come down over time, but how much do they cost?

That's cool. I've never heard of this technology before. Thank you for a great video.

i AGREE this will really work for grid scale storage. Self monitoring of the service items and reporting to maintenance office would solve the equipment wear problem.

Sounds to be very promising technology. I wonder what temperature range these batteries can easily run within?

@johnramirez5032

2 жыл бұрын

Thats a good point salt in solution can freeze. I have no idea of tge upper limits of the system. Heat degrades things.

@GeeDeeBird

Жыл бұрын

@@johnramirez5032 Salt in solution can freeze and boil. But solute salt circulating and undergoing ionic charge and discharge? I'm not so sure how it would be affected by cold or head. Good observation though!!

Did they mention roundtrip efficiency? What are those power and energy density statistics?

@Makatea

2 жыл бұрын

Hopefully at least the money was good for these ads, both of them... Leaving out key parameters is always a red flag.

@xiaoka

2 жыл бұрын

Energy density or weight per kWh is less critical for stationary storage. All about the $$$ per kWh!

@MrGonzonator

2 жыл бұрын

@@xiaoka still needed to get an idea of the size per unit storage, and per unit output.

@urgon6321

2 жыл бұрын

Apparently theoretical energy density is 170 Wh/kg. It is comparable with older types of Li-Ion batteries, but the volumetric density is lower, probably 120-150 Wh/L. Plus add the mass and volume of all the infrastructure. Also boosting 1,21V to 320V or more is not a great idea - efficiency drops with rise of voltage difference...

@brucec954

2 жыл бұрын

Goggle says around 70% which is less than Li-ion but still useful for > 4hr grid storage. Biggest thing is getting production ramped to lower costs.

Thanks for putting this out to the public to see........

this is very informative, and is a great explanation of this upcoming applied technology. i subscribed.

I wonder if this would be a viable solution for agricultural operations - seems like farms could benefit from this type of power backup.

@bknesheim

2 жыл бұрын

That have to be a very large farm. The design comes with low density and low max amp delivered. The installed size have too be significant to deliver the amp needed by heavy machinery. It will be a lot easier to build a compact battery based on Li chemistry. You can easily configure a Li battery to deliver both high voltage and high amp. I think if it is used in a significant amount it will be on power plant scale where you run it like a chemical factory and store GWatt/hours.

@lunatik9696

2 жыл бұрын

A pig or cattle farm can collect the waste and process it into fuel. Many do.

@hillvalley6716

2 жыл бұрын

Look up Red Flow in Australia 🇦🇺 , one of their owners has a farm in northern tasmania with solar and flow batteries

@critical-thought

2 жыл бұрын

@@hillvalley6716 Looks very interesting. Thanks for the tip.

@keylanoslokj1806

2 жыл бұрын

@@lunatik9696 how do they do it. Is it costy?

Great video Ricky!!

@EditorNchief

2 жыл бұрын

Great Camera work Robert!!

@robertpowellj

2 жыл бұрын

@@EditorNchief I learned from the best ;)

Nice day to binge watch son da Vinci

Great video thanks. What is the cost LCOE or $ per KwH or MwH & how much to they intend to deploy over what time? Interesting to know. Thanks again from London!

What's the round trim efficiency? What's the capital cost per GWh of storage.. Rarely get this, the most important of information of all. Until we have this info, the rest is.. whatever...

I'd like to see a comparison with green hydrogen storage.

@wineberryred

2 жыл бұрын

Not to be a party pooper but Green Hydrogen can't even compete with gasoline. Operating an EV is much cheaper than gasoline which is much cheaper than hydrogen(Green Hydrogen is the most expensive hydrogen).

@mrspeigle1

2 жыл бұрын

@@wineberryred Current energy prices you are correct, however As Intermittent renewables like wind and solar Become a bigger and bigger chunk of the grid the amount of surplus energy available on normal days if on normal days is going to push the price of electricity down. If that happens green hydrogen becomes much cheaper Is, moreover hydrogen electrolysis at scale isn't really being done at the moment so I suspect that mass scale production Will push these prices down further. Do I think that hydrogen will be used for Ground transport or energy storage? No if bridge? No however I think it will have a place in aviation particularly if The modernized Zeppelin's Become a thing.

@franciscoshi1968

2 жыл бұрын

@@mrspeigle1 round trip effeciency of hydrogen is too low to be economically viable. When energy us cheap because of oversupply you are better off chargin EVs than making hydrogen.

@ScottLaneSabineParish

2 жыл бұрын

There are a few great and promising Hydrogen technologies and they will have a place, but they are not solutions for the same problems. Right now, there are very few real "green" hydrogen production techniques and they lack the efficiencies for grid storage.

@jsalsman

2 жыл бұрын

@@mrspeigle1 Ammonia can be used for energy transport through pipelines made of carbon steel that aren't treated to provide transportation of hydrogen.

Another good job Ricky.

Sounds like a very good solution to power grid style storage ! Not sure the cost comparisons to other storage types for the long run as a maintenance program would be part of this system but eventually everything requires some sort of maintenance...

@christopheroblinger5189

2 жыл бұрын

Sounds like a good job market.

Every time you cover a grid scale energy storage technology you need to ask, point blank, what’s the round trip energy efficiency. 50 60 70 95%?? That’s one of the most important things to know about this since it has such a huge bearing on the economics of such a solution. An inexpensive design or inexpensive sustaining cost is great but it’s only half the story. Were they unwilling to answer? That would be a huge red flag.

@wlhgmk

2 жыл бұрын

I don't know about this one but the ZnBr plating battery from Redflow is said to be as efficient as pumped storage (around 80%). Not only can it be charged to 100% and discharged to zero, it must be discharged to 0 every three days or so to clean off the plates of Zn completely.

@docwatson1134

2 жыл бұрын

Looking at the cost trend of solar panels combined with increasing panel efficiency I think utilities will just oversize the arrays to make up the difference. Besides solar production now is absurdly high May through September, and low in December and January, I think the annual swing will be more to difficult to solve then day and night load balancing during summer months. To your point, the overall efficiency would matter most during the short cloudy days of winter.

Moving parts: lots of things in the home have moving parts. Fridges, heat pumps, robotic vacuum cleaners... I suspect with more iterations a flow battery can reduce the number of parts and their size.

@gbjbaanb

2 жыл бұрын

I suspect they are already using the same off-the-shelf parts anyway. What's different to a pump that pumps salt water and a pump that pumps rusty salt water?

@JustNow42

2 жыл бұрын

@@gbjbaanb even pumps are continously improved, reluctance e-motors are developed for the purpose and the new piston motor/pump is 30% more efficient.

@Coyote27981

2 жыл бұрын

Part count can be offset if you increase the size of the system. Huge tanks, huge pumps. In relation to the capacity of the system you can have reasonable part counts. Imagine having a big power plant vs a ton of smaller generators. But having multiple container sized systems also has its benefit. Yeah sure part count is high, but you gain redundancy. Instead of losing the whole system in case of failure, you just lose a unit.

Nice show! Very interesting, and promising...

Awesome future keep up the good work 🌞

I think you have reason to be exited. From the flow systems i have seen, this on seem really tight and together, as we say in the music biz. I believe it would be good for farms, as farmers are used to handling maschinery, and chemicals. I would buy shares in that company. 🇩🇰🙋🏻‍♂️🌞👩🏻‍🚀🇺🇸

@olegil2

2 жыл бұрын

Their single container 33kW system seems perfect for large farms, where you maybe want to use solar to be independent of grid issues (and might have a bit of distance to the grid, leading to instability), but need stability. My electricity comes from far away, and even just a little bit of wind in a pretty large region between me and the nearest power station leads to me sitting in the dark. I have seriously considered solar + battery, because home office without power sucks dead rats through garden hoses (to quote Jeri Ellisworth)

Very nice! thank you.

I saw a flow battery that they were developing for residential use. It was a zinc-bromide battery, and they offeres maintenance services, the same way any appliance works.

I suppose the question is how fast can you charge / discharge? Can they help with grid stabilisation? The Tesla big battery in Australia is capable of ramping from 0 to 100MW in 140 milliseconds. I can see an eventual tiered hybrid system, with ultra super capacitors able to supply high levels of current for brief times, but with nearly infinite cycle life, then LiON or LFP to provide a longer 4-8 hours, with flow batteries and other tech supplying storage measure in days. With the ever falling price of solar, it's cheaper to double of triple the installed base of production than it is to have weeks of battery storage. Industries will crop up that can use the excess energy, which in sunnier climates is likely for the majority of the year.

@tlum4081

2 жыл бұрын

You said: " ... it's cheaper to double of triple the installed base of production than it is to have weeks of battery storage. " Yeah, but the sun is only up roughly half of the day on a yearly average. Some industries can shut down at night but many or most need to operate 24/7 and I don't just go to sleep when the sun goes down, do you? Renewable energy needs an energy buffer regardless of the type (solar/wind). And who said anything about "weeks of storage", a week is likely enough for most places.

It would be interesting to see how cost effective this is in real terms and how does it handle heat or cold, would it adapt to Arizona or Alaska. How is the system effected by temperature. How would electric rates differ from what we have now to using a system like this. I like the idea, it seems very good but I have seen many good ideas over the years that never come to be. Could it be scaled down to off grid home/cabin use or is it just to expensive to do so. Can the system be refurbish at the end of its life cycle or will it simply be added to the trash pile like millions of batteries end up now. Could something like this be added to nuclear power plants that don't throttle up and down well to smooth out the energy needs as energy consumption rises and falls thru the business day. How many of these trailers would it take to store the energy of a city with say 100K people. Would it make more sense to have one giant power storage centrally located with a system like this or would several smaller substations be more efficient. Lastly how much potential is there yet to be gained from more energy efficient homes and businesses that can help reduce the need for massive power plants and help make systems like this more feasible.

@acmefixer1

2 жыл бұрын

@Douglas W If you had listened to what he said, you would have heard him say that it is not something that would be used for a home residence or small scale. You're trying to spread propaganda about lithium batteries filling up landfills and that's pure nonsense. They're far too valuable to spread on landfills; a used EV battery could be sold for more than $10,000. The valuable chemicals are recycled. And many countries have laws requiring recycling batteries.

@douglasw5371

2 жыл бұрын

@@acmefixer1 you must not have very good reading comprehension or have misunderstood my comments. I am not trying in any way to spread propaganda I am simply asking how much can be recycled and how viable the system is. I have seen many great ideas come and go in my lifetime never to make it to the market place or fall short of the promised intensions. I actually have high hopes for many of these systems as man kind can not continue consuming and wasting like we have for the last 100 years. Systems that may work well in one part of the country hot/cold may now work as well in other areas. In the future we may need different solutions for different climates and regions of the country. A great example is nuclear power is great until it isn't, decommissioning a power plant can be astronomically expensive and what do you do with all the waste. The cheap energy that you get in the beginning isn't so cheap in the end at cleanup time.

I've recently been watching some of your videos and find yours extremely informative and well done. I thinking also of your 3M video I saw recently. I have been pondering for some time now why aren't lead acid batteries split and separated into separate components, like pumping and storing electrolytes into external tanks and thus storing larger amounts of electrical energy. I now see this is "in general" what Flow Batteries are all about. So good news!. I must say theatrically YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY A ⭐⭐⭐ 5 STAR ⭐⭐ 0:21 presenter and salesman - Paul

love the concept

We have unlimited salt water and iron from all the old cars!!

@TwoBitDaVinci

2 жыл бұрын

true!

Thank you for great video! My favourite grid-storage battery, so far. I especially like the fact that the waste produced is nothing more than salt, iron and water. The stumbling blocks, I don't think are really problematic, just not seen from the right perspective. One thing we had to learn a looooooong time ago, is that humans are the only creators of waste. There's no waste in nature, just another component on the giant cyclical production line of the cosmos. We just want to control energy and information for profit, like so many things. And the same greed is and will stop us from reaching the 2030 and 2050 goals. We have not learned from the history of non-cooperation between Tesla and Edison and many more, "intelligent" men, besides. Today we have all these companies, again competing and not sharing and this time it's not just about copper mines. But all will be as it will be. It is written. GG! PTL & BLESSINGS

@flagmichael

2 жыл бұрын

There is a _lot_ of waste in nature, and it will eventually doom large organisms. Since the dawn of multicellular plants and animals life have ingested carbon and taken it to the grave. Estimates vary, but we have somewhere between about 17% and 6% of our original surface carbon left. Vast amounts will never be free; marine organisms have converted it to calcium carbonate. We now have large limestone deposits, but those are estimated to be less than 5% of what is at the bottom of the oceans. Now shortsighted humans are trying to bury carbon even faster so it will not be available... ever.

@psylentrage

2 жыл бұрын

@@flagmichael I meant nature doesn't produce wasted materials, just us and we have forgotten not to swim against the stream/current...

This will be a gamechanger. No airconditioning needs, no hazmat license, no fire suppression, these all add up, and theyve said the life expectancy is 25-30 years, not that it loses capacity but they figured over that much time it's probably a good idea to replace the tanks. It's often not 'the best' tech that is mass adopted, but the most affordable and this has to check so many boxes for utility companies. I would love to see ESS develop a residential battery and would buy one fast based on the lack of fire, toxicity or explosions and a life expectancy so long it would actually add value to a home, unlike the Li-ion batteries I see

Just found your channel! Great stuff!

Interesting video, and thanks, but... You don't inspire confidence when you mix up amps (current) with amp-hours (amount of charge) and also get it wrong by a factor of 1,000. You said "fifty-two hundred amp battery" when you meant "five point two amp-hours" or "fifty-two hundred milliamp-hours". Even then, Watt-hours would be more useful because it would tell us how much work the thing can do before it goes flat :-)

I wonder what the salt is. They said it is a kind of fertilizer. My guess is ammonium-nitrate.

@olegil2

2 жыл бұрын

Datasheet says potassium chloride

We also need energy storage facilities in multiple places around America. So all that extra energy has somewhere to be stored until needed for other things.

New favorite channel.

@TwoBitDaVinci

2 жыл бұрын

🙏

Let's see salt water and iron equals rust it's a rust battery

@mrspeigle1

2 жыл бұрын

Salt water ➕ iron ➕ oxygen =rust. No one, no rust.

Good analysis, thanks. Plating iron on the anode @time 6:30 reminds me of the QS solid state battery that plates Li on the anode (actually there is no anode but the plated Li becomes the anode).

Thanks!

Watch the video till the end but what's the charging and discharging voltage and current on the panel? Megapack can responds in milliseconds, what's their timing?

Brilliant system

Great and new technology is always welcome to help out home in this vast universe……..

Finally this is getting towards mainstream!

Pretty awesome grid storage option!

The first thought about where to store it that came to me was under road infrastructure (placed on top of the geothermal system, of course!) Our roads cover an *INCREDIBLE* amount of space that can't be used for anything else and vehicles have *VERY* low ground pressure when compared to buildings/etc., so burying things that take up a lot of space (like flow batteries and geothermal grids) seems like a perfect match to me.

@acmefixer1

2 жыл бұрын

Geothermal power plants do not need batteries because the steam is available 24/7 & 365 days a year.

@KeithOlson

2 жыл бұрын

@@acmefixer1 While the energy might be available 24/7/365, *enough* energy might not be at a particular time. By storing energy when demand is low, it can be released when demand is higher than production can sustain.

Impressive. What has ESS done to reduce failure on the pumps, valves and various mechanical parts in their battery design?

I like it! I think Any time we can get away from rare earth materials the better. For the grid it seems like a good answer. I also like the the aluminum ion and salt ion batteries for the smaller stuff which I hope goes into production sooner than thought. I would like to make off road vehicles with electric motors however safety is a great concern and complicated for me at least and expensive. Thanks for your contribution to the cause I like your channel.

This is a great. The proton balance control is the most difficult challenge.

Awesome video!