Greg Wilson's talk on mammal survival post K-Pg: kzread.info/dash/bejne/n6Z4o9inYNbMmso.html Paper describing Jakapil where it's advanced masticatory system is discussed www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9372066/ Paper on the impact of the K-Pg in higher latitudes www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-paleontology/article/abs/discovery-of-fish-mortality-horizon-at-the-kt-boundary-on-seymour-island-reevaluation-of-events-at-the-end-of-the-cretaceous/C6F72A86DAB664F2E2315A34B3875875? source of post-forest fire forest regrowth used as a stand in for post-impact Antarctic forest www.nps.gov/articles/000/wildfires-kill-unprecedented-numbers-of-large-sequoia-trees.htm

@migarsormrapophis2755

15 күн бұрын

Woooo! You got that climate change warning! Congratulations man!

The fact that these little nerds will not be able to influence Eurasiafrica is a really funky way to keep the timeline close enough to still have humans in the setting. Kinda makes me salty that didn't quite happen with any dinosaur groups in real life, but I suppose marsupials are a satisfactory consolation prize!

@taiko1237

14 күн бұрын

weeellll if they make it to Australia then they could pull a songbird and spread out ig

"Cenozoic Dragons" gives me "Dragons: a Fantasy Made Real" vibes

The extinction of temnospondyls always hits me hard great video series

Keep up the good work. The fact that you link the scientific papers you reference in the video is reason enough for me to subscribe!

@DragonsoftheCenozoic

20 күн бұрын

I'm glad you are enjoying the project! I'm a grad student so citation impotant to me and I'll try to always remember to provide sources. I can't pin comments right now because I'm a smaller channel, but hopefully in the future I'll be able to pin them so they stay at the top and are easily visible to people.

@averyhill1084

20 күн бұрын

@@DragonsoftheCenozoic will def be here to see that day come to pass

This is really really a fun idea, I really appreciate your series - I love these spec evo, seed world, alien evolution type videos tracing a lineage through time and seeing millions of years of evolution - this one has just become the one I'm most excited to follow ^9^

I am very, VERY interested in this alternate Australia. in my own alternate history fic, I came up with an entire clade of "retrosaur" inspired reptiles for faux Australian dinos, that were used by iron age Australian aboriginal kingdoms, using retrosaur labor and domesticated native Australian crops to develop agricultural societies prior to discovery by any Europeans.

I woke up today to find this, got to say this is a very interesting project! can't wait to see more of it!

@DragonsoftheCenozoic

9 күн бұрын

Thank you! I'm really enjoying Cryptadia!

Just found your channel and i already love your content

@DragonsoftheCenozoic

20 күн бұрын

Thank you!

This project is making me wonder what would happen when close to modern day. Because I'm pretty sure the Non-avian dinosaurs will be only live in southern parts of the world and later Nouth America so only people for long time would be the Native Americans and Aboriginals live with these mighty animals that definitely going to change history big time. Also, I really don't think there going be hunting to extinction for many reasons but main one they can have lot of kids.

@afunnytheropod

15 күн бұрын

I'm sure a good few dinosaurs could survive in colder places atleast by the miocene

As the Antarctic climate becomes much less survivable and the other two separate moving northwards. I can absolutely see where both could have divergent and uniquely interesting stories. The South American species have more mammalian competition, particularly as they connect to North America and are exposed to the influx of Eurasian related mammals of nth America. So the evolution of Saurians there will be very interesting. But at the same time those in Australia will get all the way to the last 100 thousand years to evolve with no influx of non dinosaur rivals, getting to dominate a world of small marsupials and monotremes, in ecoSystems largely of the same plants that existed before the meteorite. Making Australia’s ecosystems truly allow for an intriguing, isolated, but large world that’s substantially more alien than this stories Americas. I assume a number of the ancient species we did see grow into megafauna will still do so even in this Australia, so I could even be possible that no humans succeed in colonising Australia until after the Stone Age, the same is cannot say for North America if not the entire new world.

Wow, this is amazing, and kind of surreal. I'm halfway through writing a lost world genre sci fi book that derives its Cenozoic survivors from this exact same premise and logic - even some of the surviving lineages match up. I'm really impressed with how much thought and effort you've put into creating a plausible scenario, given the events that actually took place, rather than something more whimsical, like "What if the K-Pg didn't happen at all?". Given how similar the premise is, I'd love to share what I'm working on with you & compare notes, if you're interested (my email's in my profile's About section). Sorry for writing this in a comment, but I couldn't find a way to message you directly. Looking forward to more videos about your project!

Also we also gonna see humans domesticated the surviving non avian dinosaurs as pets and livestock in this alternative timeline

I just discovered this an am absolutely adoring it! My really small nitpick though is that specific epithets should be lowercase (and the whole binominal name should probably be either bold, italicized or underlined, though this can definitely be flexible with artistic license, and I'm unsure if they already are with the chosen font)

@DragonsoftheCenozoic

20 күн бұрын

Glad you're enjoying the project! And thank you for pointing out my error with the names, I will be sure to correct that going forward.

happy to see you still making content

Really excited to see where this series is headed! I personally think artwork looks great btw

This has been an excellent spec evo series so far. I really like. Though part of me wishes that you didn't limit the butterfly effect to keep humans around, as I think it would be interesting to see the non-avian dinosaurs, after the GABI, also expand further out of North America into Eurasia and Africa (maybe an idea for a future series?). Even so, this series should prove very interesting to watch. Can't wait for more! P.S. I really hope you don't have South America experience a localized mass extinction prior to the GABI like in the OTL (as well as countless other spec evo projects). Seriously, I've never seen a spec evo project involving South America explore what could have been if SA fauna just prior to the GABI hadn't gone through that mass extinction, so it would be nice to see that happen here.

@DragonsoftheCenozoic

19 күн бұрын

I might do a one off or two part video special covering an "AU" where a small Thescelosaur and Troodontid survive in the Northern Hemisphere (maybe a Leptoceratopsid surviving in Asia) similar to my plans for one off videos on "What if the Tapajarids survived?" and " What if fresh water plesiosaurs survived?", but because of reading James Gurney's Dinotopia and S.M. Stirling's The Sky People as a kid I've always wanted to do a project where Dinosaurs and Humans cohabitate so that was one of my primary motives when I first started planning the project a few years back. I unfortunately don't think the localized Mass extinction of South American fauna can be avoided, only minimized. The collapse of the Amazon Lake Network, the rise of the Andes, and the possibility that a substantial comet struck in Patagonia are all going to be very disruptive to life in South America. To stop the South American Miocene Mass Extinction would require halting the rise of the Andes and keeping the Isthmus of Panama from forming. Though I do also agree, I'd love to see spec evo project with that as a premise. It and "What if Antarctica moved North preventing the creation of a perminant glacier on the South Pole and keeping earth a Hot House of an Ice House?" are two Cenozoic spec evo questions that I would love to see delved into. However, large herbivorous R-reproductive strategists will be in significantly better positions to bounce back than the large mammals of out timeline and with them being able to weather the change better their predators will be likely be able to do the same. Dinosaurs, even when applying Avian metabolic rates and not a mix between Avian and crocodilian, have significantly lower metabolic requirements than considerable smaller mammals, meaning that while population numbers may crash, large herbivores will likely be able to sustain themselves better than mammals even as grasslands advance. In addition to probably being able to better weather the ecological and climate shifts, any potential megatheropods that make it into North America smiliar to how the Terror Birds and Sloths made it across before the landbridge are going to be entering an ecosystem where their niche does not exists and where the decline of the open forests will be less of an issue than it was to Terror Birds because they will be hunting animals well outside of what was possible for North America's predator guild. While the Machairodonts absolutely hunted juvenile Proboscideans and likely opportunistically hunted adolescent and adult proboscideans just like modern lions, they would not be filling the same niche as a 4 ton therapod would.

@jessejarmon2100

17 күн бұрын

​@@DragonsoftheCenozoic Hello, me again! I have a couple of questions regarding two groups of South American fauna, the surviving sebecid crocodylomorphs (such as Barinasuchus) and the Terror Birds. Do you have any plans for them in your spec evo project? Like, could we see something like Barinasuchus competing with mega-theropods? Terror Birds living in the shadows of their larger non-avian cousins?

@DragonsoftheCenozoic

16 күн бұрын

@@jessejarmon2100 Sebecids will be playing a large role in the project for all of the Paleogene and a good amount of the Neogene. Because of their weight advantage offer similarly sized theropods, they will be among the dominant Top Order Carnivores of South America, with the possibility of 3-4 ton Fasolasuchus sized Sebecids reigning over the continent while smaller dromaeosaur-like theropods exist as vassal predators to the giant land Crocs. In some ways, Paleogene South America will look a bit more like the Triassic than the rest of the Mesozoic, since Dinosaurs will be the dominant large herbivores, but there will still be an abundance of medium-sized Therapsids competing with them, and giant Pseudosuchians hunting them. The Phorusrhacids are honestly something I've been struggling with. The earliest undisputed Phorusrhacid is an Eocene African genus which some have taken as evidence that Phorusrhacids are an immigrant taxon to South America. But last years paper "Eocene Cariamiformes from Antarctica" showed that by the Ypresian there were 100 kilo Phorusrhacids in Antarctica which suggests that the African and European Phorusrhacids may have independently developed flightlessness from still flighted Phorusrhacids similar to what happened with the Paleognaths. However, even the most liberal interpretation would place the emergance of the Cariamiformes around 60 million years ago, or several million years after the first theropods start to filter North through the Weddellian Isthmus into South America and may very well have snuffed out the basal Phorusrhacids because of Gause's Competitive Exclusion Principle. So maybe the Phorusrhacids go extinct very early on in South America, or maybe it drives greater competition between the two groups and South America has a more diverse terrestrial predator guild. I'm still doing a lot of research into it and revising some of the older ideas I had when I originally started this project as a blog so it's not firmly written in stone whether or not the Phorusrhacids will persist or perish.

@jessejarmon2100

16 күн бұрын

@@DragonsoftheCenozoic Good to hear the sebecids will be doing well for some time, that sounds exciting! And I hope the phorusrhacids make it out OK, they're among my favorite dinosaurs next to the dromaeosaurs.

@the90thhunter92

6 күн бұрын

​​​@@DragonsoftheCenozoic Phorusrhacids don't seem to be in any position to compete with theropods as apex predatory megafauna, even the smaller vassal predators of the sebecosuchians would probably outpace the terror birds with a numbers advantage and the advantage of the ziphodont teeth. They would have to niche partition in some way with mid sized dromaeosaur esk theropods to survive.

Asking this mostly out of my own curiosity if thou doesn't mind. Given humans are implied that they exist within this timeline still. How far altered is the later parts of the Cenozoic? Is the the "modern day" then more so normal ish [if not entirely as it is now. Just a weirder past] or is there a mix of familiar and unfamiliar things. That might fall under spoilers though idk but would be understandable. And lad don't be to worried about your art presentation. Tis pretty good and honestly you give out the info effectively. People using there imagination with good context to the world itself is half the sauce. Basically keep up the good work this shit is fire!

@DragonsoftheCenozoic

20 күн бұрын

Thank you for the compliment! As for your question, while I am sypathetic to the "Butter Fly Theory" approach which might see the whole of global evolution changed as a result of these three groups surviving, I'm approaching the project from a much more modest stance. The three groups will absolutely change the way that life in South America, Antarctica, and Australia evolves and will influence North America once the GABI begins, but their effects will largely be limited to these continents. While giant Ground Sloths made it fairly far North they never managed to cross Beringia into Asia. Likewise, Australian fauna never made it across the Wallace Line into South East Asia, and the only Antarctic fauna to make it to Africa were Penguins and birds that were considerably more adept at flying than the little Rahonavian Antarctolestes, and the oldest with the Oldest uncontested Terror Bird being North African there are really no examples of South American fauna doing what several African animals did and successfully cross the southern Atlantic ocean. So Africa, Eurasia, and Pre-GABI North America will remain unaffected by the changes that happen in the remnants of Gondwana. Once humans begin to colonize the Americas and Sahul obviously the civilizations and cultures that emerged in these regions will be very different from what we know, but as it stands right now, I've only got loose ideas for anything beyond the Middle Miocene Disruption so anything surrounding the "modern day" is still a distant half formed thought right now.

This is another great video. I did not expect a a thyreophoran to be among the survivors, for the obvious reasons. But I am pretty happy all around. I was planning on asking you about surviving Nyctosaurids, but I see you want to keep the butterfly effect limited, so I guess why you chose not to use them.

@DragonsoftheCenozoic

20 күн бұрын

I'm averse to doing surviving pterosaurs or aquatic reptiles (like the fresh water plesiosaurs and Mosasaurs that we know existed) because of just how much that would expand the project. I do actually have plans to do a couple of one off "AU" sort of videos that will cover "What if Tapajarids and Nyctosaurs survived?" and "What if Plesiosaurs and Mosasaurs survived?" but they will mostly be one and done projects looking a the bigger picture.

@TheAnticlinton

9 күн бұрын

@@DragonsoftheCenozoic Were there any alvarezsaurids who were generalist insectivores? If there were, they would've had a higher chance of survival. Also how would a featherless theoretical thereophoran survive the post impact cold? Spot on on omnivorous troodontids having the highest chance of survival thoigh.

Thank you for making this video in a little less than a hour

@DragonsoftheCenozoic

20 күн бұрын

Oh the video took quite a bit longer than an hour, it was already finished when I replied to your comment, I was just waiting for it to upload.

@athos9293

20 күн бұрын

@@DragonsoftheCenozoic it was humour/humor, i know that the video was finished when you replied to my comment

@DragonsoftheCenozoic

20 күн бұрын

@@athos9293 lol, my bad

@athos9293

20 күн бұрын

@@DragonsoftheCenozoic ok

Amazing!! 🤩

nice

Did you consider having a non-avian paravian survivor, like a smaller cousin of Imperobator, or not?

@DragonsoftheCenozoic

20 күн бұрын

There is still significant debate over the nature of "Rahonavians" as some place them as derived Unenlagiines while others argue they are a sister liniage to Avialae and still others say they are Avialans. I am taking an intentionally vague stance on what their origins are because I don't think it particularly matters, to the project and because the debate is still so unclear. However, if they are Unenlagiines then Antactolestese is a non-avian paravian and the same goes for if Rahonavians are a sister clade to Avialae. Now for something more concretely distinct from Avialae like a small relative to Imperobator I considered it, but ultimitely decided that an obligate carnivore with high caloric demands, like a basal Deinonychosaur probably would have had, would probably be unable to survive the impact winter even if it's the same size as Antarctolestes.

In this alternative time Would these dinosaurs would survive all the way to the holocene

@DragonsoftheCenozoic

13 күн бұрын

There's 66 million years between this video an the Holocene, so a lot may change, but I do plan on having non-avian dinosaurs survive into the Holocene.

are you planning on marine reptiles surviving?

@DragonsoftheCenozoic

9 күн бұрын

I will be answering this in the Q&A video that should be up in a couple of days.

This was posted on the Jcink, are forum updates going to be simultaneous with the yt? I have been following this project as a forum lurker so interested to see it in YT. Edit: The Thyreophoran wasn't in the jcink haha

@DragonsoftheCenozoic

6 күн бұрын

the project is a bit different from when I posted the version on the Jcink or on my Substack so I'm still deciding if I'm going to continue posting on both of them. If I do it'll probably just be the scripts and images for the videos rather than something wholly unique.

@the90thhunter92

6 күн бұрын

@@DragonsoftheCenozoic I noticed that the Jakapil relative isn't in the jcink or the substack either, will the respective versions be retroactively updated to include it or will they be left as is?

🚬🗿👍

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