Get 10% off of #intotheam apparel: intotheam.com/questingbeast Playing at the World: amzn.to/3vRsF3m Secrets of Blackmoor: www.secretsofblackmoor.com/

@YouTubdotCub

Ай бұрын

*1970, not 1971 as you say out loud, for the first Blackmoor session

Other people are old-school gaming odnd like photographers shooting film while Ben's playing Brownstein and Blackmoor like he's making Daguerrotypes and shooting wet collodion glass plates.

"88 pages" may have been a misprint, but an entire campaign setting in less than 100 pages is instructive, nearly prescriptive.

@user-jq1mg2mz7o

Ай бұрын

the greyhawk folio is also really short, at a mere 32 pages

@TheMajorActual

Ай бұрын

Having multi-hundred page tomes for a campaign setting is a "nice to have", but there should be a sub-100 page summary for it - and preferably, under 50 pages - so that people don't get overwhelmed. That's really a good development experience for anyone wanting to be a good GM.

@Painocus

24 күн бұрын

It's a misprint... because the actual text is 63 pages.

Just to note, Dave Arneson did release a version of Blackmoor in 2004 alongside Goodman Games & Zeitgeist Games. Although it was published for the 3.5 edition of D&D, it's still a great resource. I was lucky enough to attend a seminar by Dave Arneson at GenCon 2005, and got my copy autographed

@apresmidi153

Ай бұрын

Really happy that I have a copy of this!

Getting to play with Bob was indeed fantastic. I have my own version of that group photo framed and on display. It really drove home the point that while D&D might have been inspired by Blackmoor, Blackmoor is not D&D.

@edwardbarocela2607

Ай бұрын

Was there a Dale Hesse or Hessey in that group?

@willmistretta

Ай бұрын

@@edwardbarocela2607 Unfortunately, I don't recall it was a sizable group of strangers. Bob also ran multiple games that weekend, so the person you're asking about may also have been at one of those.

I started playing in 1977 and heard this same type of story. What I heard is that Arneson got the idea for the dungeon crawl when a player's single soldier went into a tunnel to sneak into a castle or set a trap, or something to that affect.

@joshjames582

Ай бұрын

From what I can tell, a lot of different things happening in the Twin Cities wargamer campaigns kind of coalesced into what we call D&D organically. I don't think it was any one game or instance but rather an accumulation of ideas over a few years.

Finding a copy of First Fantasy Campaign is a bit of a grail for me. Congratulations on your good fortune!

@CesarIsaacPerez

Ай бұрын

Needs to be reprinted!

@Bluecho4

Ай бұрын

@@CesarIsaacPerez Or, failing that, someone needs to scan a copy and upload it to the Internet Archive.

I think Arneson himself confirmed that Egg of Coot is not a joke on Gygax but on Gregg Scott, another wargamer that dismissed fantasy as being childish and "unmanly"

Yay glad to see you made a video about that experience Ben! We sure made short work out of that troll. The telepathy spell was ace. Playing with Bob was wild, partly because he was THERE pre D&D! Are you making a vibe about the Lair of the Lamb or Dolmenwood games?

Griff Morgan knows the secret of the Egg of Coot, but I don't think he's sharing.

I don’t know why but suddenly I want to make a game that has wargame elements and that resolves tricky situations with nothing but D6’s.

I so remember these original works, maps and materials. It was such an awesome time back then. And now 50 years later look at all the RPGs that have been created and built out. And yet, coming back to the old days makes me smile. ❤

Pretty sure that The Judges Guild grafted Blackmoor into their amazing world setting, as, if I recall correctly, the maps related to that publication placed it in the Valley of the Ancients, a remote and mysterious corner of their expansive world. =^[.]^=

Really enjoyed this and the Braunstein video! I watched the Secrets of Blackmoor doc, I thought it was great. IIRC, they interviewed the players that pioneered the class/ archetype of Paladin and Thief, but i thought their parts in the film were too brief. Not necessarily a request, but i think it'd be great if someone were to get them to elaborate more on their perspective on being the prototypes and their thoughts on how they unexpectedly made such a massive impact on gaming.

As someone from the twin cities, it's always cool to see the ways so much of tabletop history weaves through here. It honestly makes sense in my experience with Minnesotan culture in general. We're fuckin nerds here tbh.

Those old, and I mean old, games like this were pretty ad hoc and a vehicle of the gm to spin a story and the players ran through some mysterious game and hoped for the best. I played in a game like this maybe 30 years ago, and it was really fun stuff, great memory

Extremely interesting content, Ben. And thanks for giving Dave Arneson some real love in this one.

Loved these past two videos. Fingers crossed that it's part of a series

I'll never get tired of the story of Blackmoor. Loved getting to hear your experience with it!

The diagonal dungeon maps are interesting because as a DM youd describe rooms as exits to "left or right" relative to where you entered because there is no concept of cardinal directions underground. Something about that style of drawing is familiar somehow, using the diagonals as guides instead of straight lines. Might have to ask Dyson about that. Thanks again, great video. You're always pleasant to hear talk about this kind of stuff.

Love these origins of D&D vids. I’m very jealous of your autographed DMG!

Another great video looking into the prehistory of D&D. And congratulations on finding Mr Arnesons' Campaign Guide! 👍👍👍👍😎😎😎😎 If there is more along these lines, would love to hear about them. 😃😃😃😃

Ben, great as usual. I really appreciate all your vids, your analytical approach to the osr and old school, and the effort you obviously put into your vids.

GaryCon was a great fountain of inspiration this year! You got to play Braunstein and Blackmoore!!! Can't wait to know what other cool experiences you got to have.

Love the history thread . . . hoping it continues.

These last two segments have been very entertaining and it is very nice to see someone exploring and experiencing the roots of our hobby. Jealous to experience the same content as a player, rather than trying to recreate as a GM with my local players. Keep up the good work

Love this video. It was just before my D&D time but all the history takes me back. Thanks.

Peterson notes that Egg of Coot and Ran of Ah Fooh were [very likely] thinly-veiled mockeries of fellow war-gamers Arneson had grievances with. How delightfully petty. 😊

Thank you so much for this tour of my hobby's history!

This series of videos you've made is fascinating and you've done a great job. I've subscribed because you're dong so darn awesome!

The Blue Rider and Mellow the Hobbit played major roles in our early gaming here. We eventually bought the Judges Guild campaign setting Wilderlands of High Fantasy and never really revisited this setting, but great memories from my youth.

Just got this vid suggested. Blackmoor has fascinated me sonce the first tan book(lets) came out in my HS days. I had been playing since my buddy brought the first blue box, along with those crappy, crumbly dice. But when Greyhawk, Blackmoor and DDSH Supplements came out I was hooked for life. In fact the last game I DMed before I left my group, and the hobby was based on the release of the Blackmoor Campaign setting books - the last for 3.5E, I think. Great stuff. Made me tear up a bit. I miss those days, and I miss gaming.

Your contribution to our hobby is unbelievable. Thanks for sharing all this

Great video. Those campaign maps are beautiful.

Hello Ben and love the channel. This is Dan C. from TAC days. This was really interesting background. I've only dabbled in Rifts, DnD, and Pathfinder but never knew about some of the origins.

@QuestingBeast

Ай бұрын

Hi Dan, good to hear from you!

That was brilliant. Good show Ben!

Great video! I envy your experience playing Blackmoor at Gary Con!

I'm loving this series of game history videos.

Subscribed, fantastic videos you done on this and Braunstein. I find it really intriguing a different levelling up mechanic that makes you harder to hit instead of HP

I'm always impressed by how many different elements combined to make D&D as well as the various individuals that contributed their unique perspectives and talents. We owe these people a lot!

I absolutely love Judges Guild maps. If I could only find the "font" for the mountains, swamps, and forests! I don't have this one, but I do have Wilderlands of High Fantasy. This was a great find!

Ben once again you deliver! You are so cool, gaming with the legends! Great video

This is a great video and give a lot of insights about how the game was born and what made it so special.

Great video as always! I love this deep dive into the history of DnD and its predecessors. I would love if you would make a video about the tournament scene in DnD. What is a tournament, where were they held, what was the goal / importance of it? As a 2E player I have always been confused about a random section in the 2E PHB that just says "Tournament rules" and then throws a bit of encumbrance rules in that section, indirectly telling players that encumbrance is only for playing in a tournament. But that just begs the question. Why is encumbrance important in a tournament? What rules or goals incentivises tracking encumbrance? My own best guess is that a Tournament gives the players a set number of in game days to play out, and then see which party or which player can carry the most loot out of a dungeon, but it is all guess work.

I recently printed out Judges Guild’s The First Fantasy Campain. I had it spiral bound. I love paging through it!

I love hearing these old stories and learning the truth behind all those rumors. We did do a lot of mapping for sure, and as you know, the early game said one player should be the caller, announcing all the pc's actions to the DM, and one the mapper. I'm kind of surprised there weren't rules for electing officers and adopting by-laws. But they were all about rp back then too, just not method acting and *DRAMA* as much as now. Tho I bet if we could go back and see for ourselves, they'd surprise us there too.

I recall reading the Egg of Coot may have Greg Scott as the inspiration. Anyways, SUPER cool you got to play with Bob Meyer! Could Mr. Meyer have been running the "hit points" similar to Chainmail rules where a certain amounts of hits must land in a single round to bring down Heroes and such?

I really enjoy these historical videos

Great video! Thanks for sharing!

Very cool -- thanks for sharing this!

I absolutely love the carousing system, and I'm totally going use it from now on. 😂

Really informative! Thanks. What I'd like in future videos are: Chainmail, OD&D ("white box"), and finally what OD&D would look like if you used the Chainmail combat system, which I believe was actually the main combat system, as opposed to the "optional" alternative combat system, that ended up being standard D&D.

Some interesting design choices. I appreciate the different kind of systems used but still familiar to DnD today.

Cool video, Ben! 🎉

How intriguing like diving deep into the lore of your favorite game. Well it’s literally that, but irl lore. I’d love to run a game like blackmoor for my players. Or even get the chance to play in one. I’ve only ever ran games(fate, 5e,)

You made me get out my old copy. To my surprise, I may have a first printing of The First Fantasy Campaign from Judges Guild. Mine has a copyright 1977, while yours has a copyright 1980. The pages are different at the very first of your book. and mine has 93 pages. Not only that but... mine looks less refined while yours has different (better but similar) redrawn artwork and typeset. Interesting! Thanks for the trip down memory lane.

The egg of coot sends its regards

Tim Kask deserves some credit here, for editing the original Dungeons and Dragons for Gary from Dave's box of notes.

The detailed pieces are historical, public-domain artwork. The amateurish stuff was commissioned by Judges Guild. That’s the case with a lot of JG books from that era - though some of the commissioned works (ie the stuff by Jennell Jaquays) was quite good.

Great video - thanks!

Would love to see a follow up of this video, going over the book that is just titled "Dave Arneson Blackmoor". I think it was released for 3.5, and it's the definitive Blackmoor campaign setting book. It goes over all the major cities, personalities, villians, pantheon, etc... It's a great read for any Blackmoor or D&D enthusiast!

I have read that book. Good stuff! Although, I wished he gone more into detail about the rules he used, such as the magic system and how one avoids attacks. I'm assuming it it was like Gamma World were you roll a d6 per point of Constitution, thus getting that wild range of HP, and you make saving throws vs normal attacks to avoid damage, but that is all pure speculation on my part. Keep up the good work telling people about the early history of the hobby!

Blackmoor was also a colony planet on the SpaceProbe wargame put out by TSR.

Following this pattern. Where's the next video be on The Lost Dungeons of Tonisborg?

Arneson did actually publish another rules set (but without the Blackmoor name and setting, possibly for copyright reasons with TSR?), Adventures in Fantasy, with Richard Snider (the same one who wrote the «Richard Snider’s Additions» found in The First Fantasy Campaign*). Arneson did at-least at some point early one use ability scores (as we can tell from original Blackmoor character sheets), although there didn’t seem to be that hard a line between them and «skills» (like horse-riding). However some of the D&D-independent Blackmoor derivatives, like Craig VanGrasstek’s Rules to the Game of Dungeon, don’t use ability scores at-all. It’s possible many of them started on an as-needed basis rather than being integrated parts of character creation. Like a character wants to do X, Arneson makes a decision for how good they are at X to roll against, and then has it written down for future reference. Someone who was actually there rather than interpreting this 3rd hand could probably give you better info. Ultimately Arneson scaled (back?) down to a system of just «referee decides on the fly how hard something is, and the player rolls according to that». Adventures in Fantasy uses some of the same scores we see in the Blackmoor character sheets, but also divides them clearly into D&D-like ability scores and a skill-like education system. And you are correct, Arneson’s original Wizard/Magic-User’s spell system was based around spell components that you either had to buy or find and that were «used up» once the spell was cast. The First Fantasy Campaign itself mentions that the Egg of Coot has a «huge Laboratory that turns out spells, for selling». In VanGrasstek’s rules spells had been abstracted into being «balls» that could be bought or found and that could sometimes contain multiple charges of a spell (usually rolled on 1D6*). For example the Spear Ball would cause 3 spear blows to an enemy with each use. Snider on the other hand early on made a magic point system instead and this is what is used in Adventures in Fantasy. *) That section was actually taken from Snider’s write-up of his own Blackmoor-derived rules. These are not lost, but as far as I am aware also not available to the public anywhere. D. H. Boggs was intending to describe it in detail on his blog, but seem to have abandoned the project after one post. **) Most Blackmoor-derived systems (Adventures in Fantasy excluded) favored D6s, including Mark Bufkin’s Beyond this Point be Dragon which was otherwise closely based on an early draft of the D&D white box.

Hello Questing Beast, appreciate the video. I'm a huge fan of Blackmoor. Did you ever wonder what the Egg of Coot really was? The main influence Dave & Gary had was JRR Tolkien, Robert E. Howard and HP Lovecraft. The description of the Egg of Coot and HP Lovecraft's Ugga Naach are the same. Dave made it his own monster but it's obvious now what his influence was. Dave's BBEG was a god! 😮 Thanks for the video you have a wonderful day!

That Barbarian sounds like a precursor to Groo.

Cool! Thanks!

Great review Beast. Is there any way I could get a copy of this. I got my first taste of DnD in 74 or 75. Boxed set of Basic.

You should give Ironsworn a try again now that you've got the hang of solo play. The random prompt improv is definitely a skill that improves with use.

it ALL goes back to that... I remember those early days - in the late 70s, I started playing... It was much, MUCH simpler (and deadlier) than it is, now... and, yeah - this is where the Level 20 'mystique' comes from - but - in its current incarnation, it's one of the problems with D&D 5e

Very interesting stuff.

We're producing a new book on Arneson with never seen artifacts, Blackmoor Foundations. Would you be interested in reviewing it? Griff

The early days of ttrpgs are so interesting.

If you want to know more about Arneson's system, you'll need to find a copy of the "Adventure's in Fantasy" box set. Unfortunately it is nigh impossible to find, going for 3-400, and I have not been able to find a PDF. Rumour has it that Wizard's of the Coast has the rights. In the foreword, Arneson writes: "I have felt that the basic original spirit of the Role Playing Fantasy game has not been well looked after..." How I would love to know what Arneson did differently, to see what other direction DnD could have gone! Alas, untill I have hundreds of dollars to spend on a quirk of interest, I may never find out.

Nice video!

The spell rules do mention Constitution as a limiter, which is something

Egg of Coot gives me Egg of the Perfect World from Berserk vibes

awesome!

Off topic, at the right angle the chair looks like a mullet.

The "dungeonsynth" almost gustave dore art is amazing, leagues better than modern D&D that seems to have almost turned to marvel.

Another great vid thanks! Do you know where we can get a copy of this book?

@QuestingBeast

Ай бұрын

eBay

@PossumMedic

Ай бұрын

@@QuestingBeast ok! I had hoped there was a reprint or PDF for sale. Sounds like a great read but $150+ is a bit steep 😅

Is there a digital version of this book? If not, is it possible to do so legally? What a cool artifact!

Very cool.

Brawn-Steen. Also, thanks for mentioning @SecretsofBlackmoor this time.

@willmistretta

Ай бұрын

Sounds like you should take it up with Dave. He was adamant that "brown stein" is correct for his game.

@arheru

Ай бұрын

Brawnsteen is such an American way of pronouncing that word. In German it would be "Brown-Shtyne", and so, much closer to how Ben pronounces it.

@QuestingBeast

Ай бұрын

At David Wesely's game, he said it was pronounced "Brown Stine."

@dundermoose

Ай бұрын

@@QuestingBeast granted, but he also pronounces Gygax as GyJax, so…

@dundermoose

Ай бұрын

@@willmistretta I would LOVE to take it up with Dave. He would be a dream guest for my show!

Playing at the world is the best

Arneson is an interesting character in that he developed a lot of the early concepts, saw enough value in the concept to partner with Gygax, but then mostly refused to develop it further while still wanting a paycheck for his original ideas. I find it hard to have too much sympathy with Arneson over how it all turned out, yet at the same time I completely understand it. When a hobby becomes a business it loses a lot of its appeal.

Hey, Ben. What you playing these days? Are you running or playing anything? Just curious!

The map behind Ben - I know I’ve seen it somewhere before. What is it?

Please get that ring resized before you deglove your finger like jimmy fallon 😅 great video ❤

I had an early printing of that First Fantasy Campaign book, and based my first campaign on it back in 78 or so. The whole thing was fascinating to read through and puzzle out. Hurricane Katrina claimed it along with everything else from those days. I'm pretty sure the EGG of Coot was a joke about E. Gary Gygax, rather than a smear of him.

@jarrettperdue3328

Ай бұрын

Agreed about the "EGG of Coot". Just because it predates any animosity, doesn't mean it isn't a wink.

@QuestingBeast

Ай бұрын

I did some more research, apparently Gygax said that it was based off of after another wargamer that Arneson knew, Gregg Scott.

@jarrettperdue3328

Ай бұрын

​@@QuestingBeast fascinating!

@YouTubdotCub

Ай бұрын

@@QuestingBeast Gary, on EN World: "Oops! I forgot to post one that is rather glaring. According to Dave Arneson the "Egg of Coot" was created from the name "Gregg Scott," the chap who ran the MicroArmor casting company some years back. Gregg dismissed fantasy games as childish and claimed wargaming was "manly." Coot indeed! Heh, Gary"

Back on 1983, in issue #72 of Dragon Magazine they published a game by Tom Wham called File 13. You played as one of 4 game designers attempting to get your games into gaming history by submitting them to The Great Game Company In The Sky. All the games were punny takes on popular games and each pool followed the conventions of big game publishers, so the one rigfing on Milton Bradley and Parker Bros had games like Frisk, Manopoly, Dopelomacy (about international imbecile trading) etc. The one that lampooned TSR had games like Grungeons & Grackles, some paridy of Boot Hill and one that always got a laugh out of me called Brownstorm (the stuff hits the fan) and now I know what game it is a parody of. That's my takeaway from this video.

Nothing like the real thing. :-)

The Egg of Coot was Gygax (E.G.G. = Ernest Gary Gygax). Blackmoor, if I remember right, was merged into or stemmed off of the old Castles and Crusades Society internal map they used for their wargame campaigns.

@QuestingBeast

Ай бұрын

That's an old rumor that turns out to be false. The Egg existed before Arneson met Gary, and was actually based on wargamer Greg Scott.

Obligatory comment: always smart content, man. Thanks for the entertaining content. 😃

Egg of Coot=a player in the Blackmoor campaign who used to be villainous (Gregg Scott)

noice

Was it similar to PbtA 2d6 system?

@QuestingBeast

Ай бұрын

Not that I could tell

@ebrim5013

Ай бұрын

It sounded like they were 2d6 opposed rolls. PBTA is more the D&D reaction table made into a game, no?

NERRRRRD

The Egg of Coot was a parody of Ernst Gary Gygax.