The way you use historicity and respect in your discussion of any matter is good stuff. Continue doing what you do and God bless you.

The more you read the early church fathers, the more you see how Lutheranism is more in line with their understanding of scripture than the East or Rome.

@johnpowers3013

6 ай бұрын

So true!

@erikriza7165

4 ай бұрын

That is debatable

@jmec4119

2 ай бұрын

Com certeza!! Se for pra ver a patristica por fontes luteranas, com certeza ela é bem luterana

@dallasbrat81

22 күн бұрын

@@erikriza7165not really Luther was very educated and read the church fathers . His goal was to return to the early church before its corruption. Has the Catholic Church repented from its corruption?

@erikriza7165

22 күн бұрын

@@dallasbrat81 it is hardly that simple. Luther had some good points, but there is much that is not in his favor. The Protestant Revolt had a lot to do with politics, power, and MONEY. The Church needed to be reformed. True. But Luther did more harm than good.

Dr. Cooper thank you so much for your videos. You are always so thorough and fair, presenting the information with as little bias as possible- you simply lay out the information you've found. I appreciate your knowledge and love for the history of the Church.

Absolutely impressed with the careful exposition of the church fathers. Sorely lacking in other parochial discussions. Bravo. Subscribed!

Hi Pastor, love your content it is very fruitful and thorough! Also, I myself am a Baptist (Southern), and I love reading the Church Fathers all the time, and you’re right the more I read, the less attractive Rome seems. Just wanted to let you know that we thoughtful Baptists are out there! But I guess we do have our own traditions as well and beliefs like other Protestants. Thank you again! God bless you!

@AlphaOmega888

3 жыл бұрын

"you’re right the more I read, the less attractive Rome seems." Is this what the role of the Lutheran pastor? Why not call him into the Lutheran Church - into salvation?

@AlphaOmega888

3 жыл бұрын

​@Arminius I wasn't implying that. I was trying to imply he is acting in a *role reversal* as to what a Pastor should normally do - bring people *into salvation* (Christian Baptism and Creed ie: Lutheran, Roman whatever), not help drive people *away from salvation.*

@EricAlHarb

3 жыл бұрын

Id be baptist, good god fearing congregation, except for a completely heretical gospel, to be honest, I cant even say that, because based on my limited understanding, I dont see baptist theology as apostolic christianity. At least, thats what I get from listening to Paul Washer. I'm EO for the record and humbly submit that protestant theology is .... baffling

@adamduarte895

3 жыл бұрын

Django Ferreira-Hmong ok

Thank you for the lectures. You have thoroughly convinced me of the historicity of confessional Lutheran theology.

Thank you for you clear teaching on very difficult and misunderstood subjects. Love your videos. Godspeed and God's peace be with you.

Thank you for the podcast Dr Cooper, I've been interested in this topic for a while and your series on prayer to the saints in the early church has been useful, God bless.

Thanks for this series. It's been helpful in my study of RC and the saints.

Your voice is calming and your presence makes me want to trust you

You are being so helpful to me, at least, surely to others. I always have had a problem with praying to/through the saints in Heaven. It never added up. Yet so much of the truth of the Church about so many things passed through the Undivided Church, especially up to and through the 7th century, that the "thang" about praying to saints disturbed me. It's reassuring to know that the first two centuries of the CHristian Era showed no real trace of that kind of devotion. I still struggle with Mary's role, prayer to or otherwise, but at least the saints so much less than she are off limits.

Thank you so much for this video. It was so helpful.

Thank you! This is very helpful.

Thank you Dr cooper. Both you and Dr Gavin have been great helpers to me and I’m guessing thousands of others find evidence for my faith

Anyway love your work my brother in Christ

Could you do a video on Wesleyanism/Arminianism? I've seen a lot of videos from you on the Reformed perspective, but not on the Methodist one. Maybe like a "5 Reason's why I'm not Methodist?" Thanks in advance.

@jamesmeyer9574

3 жыл бұрын

That's a good idea

@dreamer9127

2 жыл бұрын

Seconded!

Excellent video.

Also I think you nailed that last point about judging developments through the lens of Scripture. Of course there is going to be development within the Church, and there will continue to be developments, but how do we decide if they are right or wrong? We have to resort to holy Scripture as our highest authority, the only inerrant authority that will not be swayed by culture or change with time.

@CCiPencil

Жыл бұрын

That’s a crazy idea; look to what God through His spirit said for doctrine and guidance. 😂😂😂 I have no idea how someone could say anything is ontologically on par with scripture as far as teachings and doctrine for Godly worship and Godly beliefs and Godly living.

Well done video.

Well done.

Eastern Orthodox Christian here. First of all, I want to applaud you for making a respectful, informed, and professional video concerning this subject matter. I had a couple questions: 1. What do you think of Origen's distinction made between prayer to God and the prayer offered to created beings? It's my understanding that the word prayer in the ancient times simply meant making a request or supplication to anyone. Second question: what do you make of the scattered but clearly stated support for asking saints for intercession in the antenicene era? I noticed you didn't mention any of them, perhaps you aren't aware. For example, we can see Saint Methodius pray to the Theotokos in the 3rd century, Saint Hippolytus imploring the three boys from the boys from the book of Daniel, the Sub Tuum Praesidium prayer to the Theotokos from the 3rd century, writings on the tombs of martyrs invoking dead Christians to pray for the living, the prayer to the angel in the Shepard of Hermas, and a few other blatant references to pleading the dead to intercede for the living. In addition, you also see this practice as widely assumed in the writings of the Church from the 4th century forward from saints such as John Chrysostom, Augustine, Ephrem the Syrian, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory the Theologian, and plenty others. There aren't any treatises written on it, but I believe this actually implies it wasn't controversial in the slightest and was indeed an organic part of the life of the Church, granted in a less systematic and organized form it would later grow into (though you yourself admit to not all development being bad). I think that, if the notion of asking the dead saints to pray for us was truly completely absent in the earliest Church, you wouldn't see such a widely assumed position in favor of it by the 4th century. As for the scarcity of much written on saintly intercession prior to the 4th century, I wouldn't expect a tremendous amount to be written on the matter because there was not a developed liturgical calender commemorating countless amounts of saints, but rather the saints of the church were small in number and limited to local veneration and mostly consisted of martyrs. These were my thoughts on the matter. In any case, I pray you are well. God be with you.

@Mygoalwogel

2 жыл бұрын

*Orthodox Compline prayer to Mary:* _On the terrible day of judgment, deliver me from eternal punishment and make me an heir of your Son's glory_

@ike991963

2 жыл бұрын

@@Mygoalwogel I know the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches claim that "We pray through the saints, not to them." But when you read the prayers, like the one you quoted, it's hard to believe that subtle distinction. The prayers themselves argue against it.

@heb597

2 жыл бұрын

@@ike991963 My brother, I am Catholic but that Orthodox Prayer is Glorious, Beautiful, and Divine. DO NOT SHY FROM IT. Mary's whole purpose was to cooperate with God's salvific plan to indiretly deliver us from eternal punishment by giving birth to Jesus who directly delivers us from eternal punishment. When you pray to Mary, it automatically invokes/involves God because she has no power to deliver us. Instead, she will intercede for us to Jesus. Just like she did at the wedding at Cana when Jesus turned water into wine. The wine is a prefigurement of the blood of Jesus. Through Mary's cooperation, Jesus ends up redeeming us by his blood. Her soul magnifies the lord! All Generations will call her blessed. We are to honor her. These Protestants are ignorant of the truth. To them Mary is simply test tube to be discarded. But God had an ongoing plan for Mary. Mary is the New Ark of the Covenant. In the OT, when the Jews had the Ark, they defeated their enemies. But the Ark indirectly gave them victory. It was God who directly gave the Jews victory. The Ark was made of the purest and highest quality material. Ark was honored and respected that no man could touch it but the Ark was only an object. How much more respect should we give the mother of God who is New Ark of the Covenant. That is why when Protestant Pastors fail to excorcise demons, they call a Catholic Priest who pray to Mary who in turn intercedes for us to Jesus. Can you imagine the Jews saying to God, "hey we do not need the Ark of the Covenant all we need is you and your the only one we love. If you love God, you will honor the Ark same with Mary the New Ark of the Covenant. Prayer to Mary is powerful because her soul MAGNIFIES THE LORD intensifes His power. God works through his creations as displayed by the Ark of the Covenant.

@user-dj3is2qh2u

2 жыл бұрын

He can’t.

@sebastianfischer498

Жыл бұрын

@@heb597 It may be beautiful but is it apostolic christianity or an innovation? I am a roman catholic on my way to protestantism, because of the question of apostolicity and historicity. Yes, I went through the catholic answers stuff and many of the debates, I consider the protestant arguments much stronger.

I think you could flesh this excellent analysis out and publish an affordable book on this subject. You and Pastor Joshua Sullivan (ELDoNA) are my favorite theologians on KZread.

Thanks!

Would you be willing to discuss this topic on the KZread channel Reason & Theology? They’ve responded to one of your videos before.

@magnus8704

3 жыл бұрын

Up

@DrJordanBCooper

3 жыл бұрын

I'll do it once I finish the series.

14:53 -- the correct reference is Irenaeus, Against Heresies 2.32.5 (Book 2, Chapter 32, Verse 5)

@tonyl3762

Жыл бұрын

The context is the contrast between the heretics use of magic and the Church's performance of miracles. It is NOT relevant or comparable to invoking saints and angels as intercessors with God. See context below...... "And if they have in truth accomplished anything [remarkable] by means of magic, they strive [in this way] deceitfully to lead foolish people astray, since they confer no real benefit or blessing on those over whom they declare that they exert [supernatural] power; but, bringing forward mere boys [as the subjects on whom they practise], and deceiving their sight, while they exhibit phantasms that instantly cease, and do not endure even a moment of time, they are proved to be like, not Jesus our Lord, but Simon the Magician .... Wherefore, also, those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him.... It is not possible to name the number of the gifts which the Church, [scattered] throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ.... , who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and which she exerts day by day for the benefit of the Gentiles, neither practising deception upon any, nor taking any reward Acts 8:9, 18 from them [on account of such miraculous interpositions]. For as she has received freely Matthew 10:8 from God, freely also does she minister [to others]. Nor does she perform anything by means of angelic invocations, or by incantations, or by any other wicked curious art; but, directing her prayers to the Lord, who made all things, in a pure, sincere, and straightforward spirit, and calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, she has been accustomed to work miracles for the advantage of mankind, and not to lead them into error. If, therefore, the name of our Lord Jesus Christ even now confers benefits [upon men], and cures thoroughly and effectively all who anywhere believe in Him, but not that of Simon, or Menander, or Carpocrates, or of any other man whatever, it is manifest that, when He was made man, He held fellowship with His own creation, and did all things truly through the power of God...." Against Heresies Book 2, Ch 32, 3-5

@internautaoriginal9951

3 ай бұрын

@@tonyl3762”angelic invocations” is a clear reference to call angels, a huge refutation of your position

@tonyl3762

3 ай бұрын

​@@internautaoriginal9951 It's a difficulty but definitely NOT a refutation. Not even Catholicism or Orthodoxy would condone the invocation of angels or saints for the purpose of magic, i.e. manipulation of and control over spirits and/or the natural world, which IS THE CONTEXT of the passage, not prayers of intercession. Moreover, you would agree that demons are real and of the same species as angels, yes? Isn't "angel" the genus for Irenaeus that includes both demons and what we call angels today? Book 2 Ch 6 is evidence of this, using "angels" and "demons" somewhat interchangeably. Are not demons often called fallen angels? Within the broader context of other early Jewish and Christian sources demonstrating prayer to angels faithful to God and the context of Irenaeus speaking about wicked magic, one might reasonably interpret the "angelic" as "demonic" here or an abuse of a legit practice of intercessory prayer. Remember all ancient texts are translations from another time, culture, language, and context. We should not be too quick to think the translation of one word a certain way can trump the broader context.

Around the 45 minute mark, you mentioned (essentially) that “To immerse yourself in church history is to cease to be protestant, but to immerse yourself deeper is to cease to be Roman...” (to riff on Newman) And while I agree in principle, how does one deal with certain areas of contemporary Lutheranism (our tradition) that seem to be more and more at odds with church history when studying the Fathers - for instance, ecclesiology and polity. The more I read the early fathers the less and less I see confessional Lutheran Congregationalism as being at all compatible with the history of the church, or with the model set forth within Holy Scripture (for that matter). What do we do with this obvious discrepancy and avoid coming across as hypocritical when using this tactic against Rome (on the one side) or Evangelicals (on the other)?

@Catholic-Perennialist

3 жыл бұрын

Or you could swim the Tiber. It is a nonsensical statement to say "to be deeper in history is to cease to be Roman." A non-Roman "Catholic" is Byzantine Catholic. Lutherans are protestant; they are not the historic Church.

@vngelicath1580

3 жыл бұрын

@@Catholic-Perennialist According to a papist, yes. Because your definition of “Catholic“ is ‘the churches (dioceses) in communion with the Bishop of Rome.’ That is not the universal (both historical and across space) definition of the term ‘Catholic’. But of course you would not accept that reality because of your all-consuming and exclusivistic ecclesiology. To this day the Orthodox Churches understand themselves to be not merely the Orthodox Churches, but the “orthodox-Catholic” Christian Church - in contradistinction to western or “papal” Catholicism. Catholicism is likewise defined creedally - as any Christian who holds the faith as set forth in the ecumenical creeds irrespective of institutional hierarchy or any other denominational peculiarity. As it stands, there is at least a very good argument to be made for an ecclesiology which understands the tota Ecclesia to be the one Catholic Church of which there are several catholic communions, only one of which is overseen by the Bishop of Rome.

@Catholic-Perennialist

3 жыл бұрын

@@vngelicath1580 I would accept the EO as Catholic and apostolic; they're just not "one" as the Creed states. But Lutherans are none of these things.

@stpaulphillip

3 жыл бұрын

Truth is catholic and apostolic. Not a magic spell cast from one to another through hands. The LCMS and ALC teach truth.

@Catholic-Perennialist

3 жыл бұрын

@@stpaulphillip The "truth" is precisely the point in question; your remarks are circular. Truth is found in the Church; and there is only One.

Dr. Cooper- thank you for your thoroughness and perspective on this issue. I have a question- how do you handle the groups like the Coptic Christians and other early/ non-Chalcedonian groups? They too emphasize prayers to the saints and use of incense. If the Roman church developed questionable doctrine over time, and the Eastern Orthodox did as well, isn't it strange that the Copts fell into the same errors seemingly independently? Thank you.

@heinrich3088

3 жыл бұрын

The only answer he can give to you, is speak that this kind of practice developed after a much time later of the writings of the New Testament. This is a kind of implict claim that the Church in the whole world, fell into apostasy. You can't for example, anathematize St.Cyrl of Jerusalem when he says this in his catechetical lecture n.23:" 8. Then, after the spiritual sacrifice, the bloodless service, is completed, over that sacrifice of propitiation we entreat God for the common peace of the Churches, for the welfare of the world ; for kings; for soldiers and allies; for the sick; for the afflicted; and, in a word, for all who stand in need of succour we all pray and offer this sacrifice. 9. Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls , for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth. www.newadvent.org/fathers/310123.htm

@stallard9256

3 жыл бұрын

The Alexandrian church did not develop "independent" of the Antiochene or Roman churches; on the contrary, they were in constant contact and were all in the same polity until the Islamic invasion. There were times when churches were cut off from the rest of the Christian world, such as the Nestorians in China, but by and large the idea that the Christian world was disconnected such that the common doctrines shared by geographically distant churches should ipso facto dispel any suspicion that they are innovations is totally unfounded.

@toomanymarys7355

3 жыл бұрын

They were not AS separated as you might think. They get a number of traditions that develop later. It's blunted, though. You don't get obscenities like the treasury of the saints, for instance.

This was an excellent presentation. Any objection to me taking your closing clip about reading the Fathers in general and Catholicism for my channel (formerly Operation St. Cyprian which did the response to you & How To Be Christian)? God bless.

@DrJordanBCooper

3 жыл бұрын

Sure. Go ahead.

@tonyn2101

3 жыл бұрын

Hey good to see you here buddy! Love your channel

@aGoyforJesus

3 жыл бұрын

@@DrJordanBCooper thanks, I appreciate your work. Even if you aren't Calvinist. :)

@aGoyforJesus

3 жыл бұрын

@@tonyn2101 Thanks! Just did a name change so I can do non-Catholic stuff from time to time.

@tonyn2101

3 жыл бұрын

@@aGoyforJesus you are in Lutheran territory here muhahaha. Yeah Dr. Cooper is a great help. He used to be a former Presbyterian. His videos on the differences and similarities between the reformed and Lutheran traditions I find very insightful. I hope your ministry continues to grow. Let me know any way I can help. Look forward to the next video! God bless

Irenaeus talked about the Church at Rome, and even established that it was considered the main Church amongst the other Churches.

@RobertEWaters

9 ай бұрын

By Iranaus

Good quotation from Irenaeus, but you misspoke on the reference it is AH Book 2, but it's Chapter 32 section 5 (pg. 409 was correct). Thanks.

@tonyl3762

Жыл бұрын

The context is the contrast between the heretics use of magic and the Church's performance of miracles. It is NOT relevant or comparable to invoking saints and angels as intercessors with God. See context below...... "And if they have in truth accomplished anything [remarkable] by means of magic, they strive [in this way] deceitfully to lead foolish people astray, since they confer no real benefit or blessing on those over whom they declare that they exert [supernatural] power; but, bringing forward mere boys [as the subjects on whom they practise], and deceiving their sight, while they exhibit phantasms that instantly cease, and do not endure even a moment of time, they are proved to be like, not Jesus our Lord, but Simon the Magician .... Wherefore, also, those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him.... It is not possible to name the number of the gifts which the Church, [scattered] throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ.... , who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and which she exerts day by day for the benefit of the Gentiles, neither practising deception upon any, nor taking any reward Acts 8:9, 18 from them [on account of such miraculous interpositions]. For as she has received freely Matthew 10:8 from God, freely also does she minister [to others]. Nor does she perform anything by means of angelic invocations, or by incantations, or by any other wicked curious art; but, directing her prayers to the Lord, who made all things, in a pure, sincere, and straightforward spirit, and calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, she has been accustomed to work miracles for the advantage of mankind, and not to lead them into error. If, therefore, the name of our Lord Jesus Christ even now confers benefits [upon men], and cures thoroughly and effectively all who anywhere believe in Him, but not that of Simon, or Menander, or Carpocrates, or of any other man whatever, it is manifest that, when He was made man, He held fellowship with His own creation, and did all things truly through the power of God...." Against Heresies Book 2, Ch 32, 3-5

Would it not be equally valid to search for condemnations of the use of prayers to saints? Are there any and if not, why not? Very well done video by the way :)

Jordan, I like your prerogative. I'm interested in the subject as well as PRAYER TO THE VIRGIN MARY. A good place to also check to see if such was recommended/taught &/or done is in very early Catechisms such as THE CATECHETICAL LECTURES OF S. CYRIL, ARCHBISHOP OF JERUSALEM. Please you (or anyone) let me know if you find any evidence of praying to saints or Mary/Mariam in very early Catechisms; and I if I find such I will try contact you, J. Peace In Messiah.

@user-dj3is2qh2u

2 жыл бұрын

The sub tuum is like 100 years older than Cyril’s lectures lol

We (as Jordan Peterson would say) order ourselves toward the highest Good. The reason the pagans were wrong (and why we don’t offer prayer or worship to even good and holy beings) is that these are created things - demonic beings in the case of pagan gods, angelic or sanctoral beings in Christianity. It relates very much to the first few chapters of Genesis as well. The narrative was written partially as a critique of pagan culture that worshiped nature and created things (even very good things) and posits instead that we ought to worship only the highest Good, the source of all things; the main reason is that we are rational souls and thus to direct our trust and honor to anything else would be to cause disorder within our own souls and by extension within the created order.

@AlphaOmega888

3 жыл бұрын

Humans aren't created. They are unique. Look it up if you don't believe me. That's why we don't 'pray' to cats and dogs.

@vngelicath1580

3 жыл бұрын

@@AlphaOmega888 “humans aren’t created” Huh?

Where can I get a reasonably priced copy of Chemnitz’s “Examination”?

@toddvoss52

3 жыл бұрын

maybe you could get lucky with a used copy. Good luck with that. Yes its pricey.

Why pester the S/saints when one can address Jesus directly? HE prays to the Father for us all, no matter where we happen to be among the plethora of denominations.

@EricAlHarb

3 жыл бұрын

Because we are asked to pray for one another, lol.

@bethanyann1060

3 жыл бұрын

Why pester other living people to pray for you when you can address Jesus directly?

@margueritelangton6362

3 жыл бұрын

@@bethanyann1060 Only in life threatening circumstances :-)

@EricAlHarb

3 жыл бұрын

@@bethanyann1060 because that’s what the apostles taught.

@bethanyann1060

3 жыл бұрын

@@EricAlHarb I was being facetious to the original poster in my comment :) I’m Catholic btw.

Around 45', dr. Cooper mentions "offering prayers". Indeed, prayers in the Holy Scriptures are compared to holy incense, which in the Old Testament were exclusively burnt and offered to God Himself, because they were directly associated with WORSHIP. Prayers are a part of liturgical worship, so they should be directed to God alone. Even the holy angels refused worship by Saint John in Revelation. Prayers are an invocation: when Saint Mary, Saint Zachariah and Saint Joseph were visited by angels, the angels came autonomously and without being invoked. Prayers, since they are invocations, are an exclusivity of the Uncreated God. The Psalms, which are mostly sung prayers, do not have any instance of prayer to someone other than the true and living God. Invocations to anyone besides God are forbidden in the Holy Scripture, and invocation of the dead (which includes also the saints that are not with us anymore) is associated with witchcraft and condemned in the Holy Scripture. Indeed, as dr. Cooper points out here, the faithful early disciples of the holy apostles do not support any praying to the saints or to the angels, neither in doctrine nor in practice.

@AlphaOmega888

3 жыл бұрын

"Indeed, prayers in the Holy Scriptures are compared to holy incense" - 6 days ago, was it a 'make up your own religion day'?

@GeorgePenton-np9rh

3 жыл бұрын

If it is wrong to talk to souls in the next world did Jesus do wrong when He talked to Moses and Elijah at His transfiguration?

@AlphaOmega888

3 жыл бұрын

@@GeorgePenton-np9rh They believe God to be 'jealous' and 'insecure' like a teenager. These people believe in the wrong God. They believe God somehow needs human praise to feed his ego. Now there is one god who covets worship, he covets it so much, that he demanded JESUS HIMSELF to bow to him! He REALLY ges jealous and covets worship. Why do you think the Legion of demons in Demoniac were afraid to get cast out and face Satan? Because they KNOW they will get in trouble for kneeling to Jesus and Satan gets JEALOUS and HATES that: Mark 5:6 When the ‘DEMONIAC’ saw Jesus from afar, he RAN and **WORSHIPED HIM** -Also note: demon-possessed person can APPEAR to be Christian, yet in reality be possessed with demons and doing evil. So just because people gather to do their praise and claim it's in the name of Christ, it does NOT mean that's what is going on. It's mainly 'people entertaining other people' as a pope once said.

@LuizLange

3 жыл бұрын

@@GeorgePenton-np9rh, the Bible tells us that Elijah never had his own soul separated from the body. And it seems that Moses was reunited with his own body as well before being taken into heaven. But that is not the point. Praying is not just talking to souls: in prayers to the saints, you ask for blessings, protection and give praise in a way that should be exclusively done to God. Doing that even to a living person on earth, or any other creature, is also against God's will and rightly called idolatry. Other than that, on a lighter note, in case Moses and Elijah show up in front of you in flesh and blood as they did at Jesus' transfiguration, please feel free to have a regular conversation with any of them.

@LuizLange

3 жыл бұрын

@@AlphaOmega888, God does not need human praise. Humans need the right God, who is Jesus Christ, our Creator and Redeemer, and praising Him and praying to Him are ways to keeping things in the right perspective as creatures. That is good and salutary. On the other hand, whatever Satan likes or hates is of no concern, since he is also just a creature and should kneel before Jesus as well.

If you read Chapter 8 of Book XXII of Augustine's City of God, he lists a number of miracles worked by God through the agency of the saints' intercession. The most dramatic occurs at the end of the chapter, in which a brother and a sister, Paulus and Palladia, cursed by their mother and afflicted with seizures, sought refuge at the cathedral of Hippo, Augustine's own church. There was apparently a shrine that held relics of Stephen the protomartyr, and the siblings prayed in the presence of those relics and received a miraculous healing on Eastern Sunday in the presence of a great throng of people. It's quite the story. There is at least one explicit mention of prayer offered to the saints. Augustine records this event without any censure or disapproval: "There was a fellow-townsman of ours at Hippo, Florentius, an old man, religious and poor, who supported himself as a tailor. Having lost his coat, and not having means to buy another, he *prayed to the Twenty Martyrs*, who have a very celebrated memorial shrine in our town, begging in a distinct voice that he might be clothed. Some scoffing young men, who happened to be present, heard him, and followed him with their sarcasm as he went away, as if he had asked the martyrs for fifty pence to buy a coat. But he, walking on in silence, saw on the shore a great fish, gasping as if just cast up, and having secured it with the good-natured assistance of the youths, he sold it for curing to a cook of the name of Catosus, a good Christian man, telling him how he had come by it, and receiving for it three hundred pence, which he laid out in wool, that his wife might exercise her skill upon, and make into a coat for him. But, on cutting up the fish, the cook found a gold ring in its belly; and immediately, moved with compassion, and influenced, too, by religious fear, gave it up to the man, saying, See how the Twenty Martyrs have clothed you."

@dcndrew_faithofourfathers

3 жыл бұрын

Good video, by the way. I think you're basically right. The RC/EO claims of the practice being of apostolic origin seems to run contrary to the evidence. The difficulty I have, then, is explaining how the practice became accepted in the fourth and fifth centuries without censure or disapproval from contemporary church fathers. There was clearly some Christians who disagreed with the practice-Jerome's Contra Vigilantius is an example of that. But Vigilantius is not a church father. Given all this, my tentative position right now is that the practice does not necessarily constitute idolatry, and that it should not be church dividing. If a Christian incorporates prayers to the saints in his private devotions, that's fine, as long as he does not force it on others who cannot do so in good conscience. And likewise those who cannot in good conscience pray to the saints ought not to consider their Christian brethren who do so idolatrous. "Let not the one who [prays to the saints] despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who [prays to the saints], for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand." - Romans 14:3-4

@stallard9256

3 жыл бұрын

​@@dcndrew_faithofourfathers There are a fair few cases of corruption in the fourth and fifth centuries that seem to pass unnoticed (though much less than Roman apologetics would have you believe). The most obvious explanation is that, given the church radically transformed in a relatively short period of time from a persecuted but growing sect to the enforced state religion, a lot of paganistic errors crept in as it is almost impossible to enforce orthodoxy when you convert your entire population by the point of a gladius.

@GeorgePenton-np9rh

3 жыл бұрын

@@dcndrew_faithofourfathers Don't the examples of the rich man of the Lazarus/rich man parable and Jesus talking to Moses and Elijah show that even before the apostolic age began Jesus was saying that it is possible to pray to those on the next world and that they can hear and answer us? Here we have the ironic twist of Protestants appealing to the Church Fathers and of Catholics appealing to Scripture.

@GeorgePenton-np9rh

3 жыл бұрын

@@stallard9256 If prayer to saints is a pagan corruption why did the rich man in the Lazarus/rich man parable pray to Abraham, and why did Jesus Himself pray to Moses and Elijah at His transfiguration?

Great presentation showing that praying to saints simply was not part of the early church practice.

@user-dj3is2qh2u

2 жыл бұрын

Dr. Cooper ignored the evidence for it.

@oprophetisfake9482

2 жыл бұрын

@@user-dj3is2qh2u There is no evidence for it. Contacting the dead is forbidden. Just like with Saul and the witch of Endor.

@user-dj3is2qh2u

2 жыл бұрын

@@oprophetisfake9482 there is a lot of evidence for it, actually.

@oprophetisfake9482

2 жыл бұрын

@@user-dj3is2qh2u No, it is all far too late. It is the same as the sin of Saul seeking help from Samuel after he had died. It is forbidden. God forbade it in the Old Testament, he did not endorse it in the New Testament. It is sin.

Thank you so much for this episode, dr Cooper! Just one question: What do you think about this early instance of prayer directed to Peter and Paul? - csla.history.ox.ac.uk/record.php?recid=E05087 - It seems that it is the earliest evidence we have.

There seems to be a gap in the reasoning here. It's quite possible that Justin did not view the intercession of the saints in the same category as these other practices so they may not be so closely linked and so not mentioned.

And he said unto them, "Full well you reject *the commandment of God* that you may keep your own TRADITION." “Making *the word of God* of none effect through your TRADITION, which you have delivered: and many such like things you do.” {Mark 7:9&13} Remember the sabbath day, (why?) to keep it holy.

I would add Origen explicitly teaches against any prayer directed to any other person than God in his phenomenal book Against Celsus.

@AriBenDavid

3 жыл бұрын

but Origen was a heretic

@juliomereb6316

3 жыл бұрын

@@AriBenDavidDon’t be preposterous.

@juliomereb6316

3 жыл бұрын

@@AriBenDavid you are the heretic here

@InquisitionFren

3 жыл бұрын

@@juliomereb6316 Origen was a universalist heretic who not only taught that the devil would be saved but that human beings would be resurrected as spheres

@memememememe515

3 жыл бұрын

Origen is a heretic! From all the Church Fathers you chose the heretic! Everyone knows how many heresies that man said. Do you want me to make a list with them? 3 (5th, 6th, and 7th) councils declared him a heretic, but he is your role model...

Thanks Dr. Cooper! You’re the last bastion of Protestantism in the Intertubes. You offer the best case for Protestantism than any other Protestant apologist I know of. I can say that I already passed the halfway mark of Tiber and I’m looking for reasons to turn back. The truth is, I don’t wanna be a Catholic, but everything I’m learning points to that direction. However, I wish your arguments are enough to dissuade me. Frankly, I didn’t even budge! I guess what could dissuade me is if it can be shown that Doctrinal Relativism is how the Lord designed His Church. Please discuss why the Church do not have a hierarchical authority in teaching and administration. Showing that “this is what the fathers taught or didn’t teach” proves nothing but that. Can’t the Church be guided by the Holy Spirit as Christ promised to sift through false vs sound doctrines? Doesn’t the Church have the authority to keep what is true and discard what is false? Discernment is the Holy Spirit’s gift to the Church. Should I trust that schismatics have more discernment than the Church? Should I trust myself in discerning the true teachings of Christ among all doctrines that are floating around? The Lord established a Church that is meant to be united. To me, the strongest argument for Catholicism is that they have the only mechanism for unity. As I read through Church History, I could see how the Church struggled to keep this unity. The development of the doctrine of the Primacy of the Seat of Peter seem to be an inevitable evolution as the Church faced challenges in every age. The alternative is Doctrinal Relativism espoused by Protestantism. It seems to be a weak alternative for it utterly destroys the unity of the Church. This is my train of thought. Again, I am looking for reasons not to push through my course to Rome. I hope you will touch on these topics soon.

@antoninoskomnenos1022

3 жыл бұрын

I second this. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth. (John 16:13.)

@shaunschulte2258

3 жыл бұрын

I was on the road to Rome. COVID had me studying things I otherwise wouldn’t have had time to. It was the week leading up to Divine Mercy that I knew I was going to convert. I prayed about it, and just had no peace about converting. As a born again believer in Christ, I know the Holy Spirit directed me to abandon that path. Rome has some great arguments, and I love Jimmy Akin and the CA crew. I consider Catholics (some/most) and the Orthodox brothers in Christ, but that was not my path. Maybe if we start trying to point to “The Church” we’re missing the forest for the trees. All Christians love the Lord, we all cherish our relationship with Christ, and none of us believe we can earn our salvation. We also all have errors and contradictions in our traditions. Maybe don’t feel bullied to run to Rome to be accepted by Christ. He loves you, died for you, and just wants a relationship with you. If Rome facilitates that better, then Godspeed, brother. But if not, you are not deficient in Christ’s eyes because of the building you go to on Sunday. Be blessed.

@raeldc

3 жыл бұрын

@@shaunschulte2258 Thanks for your input Shaun! How I wish it’s that easy to be a Mere Christian. However, I am so convinced about the Eucharist that I could narrow the choices down to Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Lutheran. Then I asked what kind of unity did Jesus pray for. Is it an invisible unity where what binds us is our love for the Lord, and doctrines be damned? Or did he really establish a visible church, where we’re both united in love and truth? Did you wrestle with these questions too? Should I approach it a different way?

@stallard9256

3 жыл бұрын

​@@raeldc What sort of unity did the churches of the apostles enjoy? Did they make the Roman equivalent of a non-profit called The Church Jesus Founded Inc. that everyone from Sevile to Antioch were branches of, or were they united by their preaching the gospel and administering the sacraments, particularly that by that communion that unites us together as one body with Christ? Like many of their doctrines, you would never in a million years get Rome or Constantinople's idea of the Church from Scripture read purely on its own merits.

@shaunschulte2258

3 жыл бұрын

@@raeldc Hey brother, I would ask which side of the Tiber shows love and Grace in differences and extends the right hand of fellowship amid doctrinal disputes. The two oldest branches of Christendom are separated by the Filioque (really). Protestants are United by the person and work of Christ. He is our unity. We are one in Him. Not that our brothers in Rome are wrong to be protective over their doctrinal distinctives, but in a church where doctrine can develop and change on the inside, that kinda protection seems superfluous. If doctrinal purity is something you are compelled by, Eastern Orthodoxy beats Rome. Of course Oriental Orthodox beats them, but they are Monophysites.

Seems like you confuse Irenaeus’ condemnation of angelic invocation (witchcraft) through magic or drug use with prayer of intercession. The church is always against the innovation of the dead (necromancy) and angels. And with justin you seem to be ASSUMING that the early church worshiped Saints but in reality they only worship GOD but will ask for help and guidance from those who have been clothed in the light of Christ after death.

@Mygoalwogel

2 жыл бұрын

*Orthodox Compline prayer to Mary:* _On the terrible day of judgment, deliver me from eternal punishment and make me an heir of your Son's glory_

@Mygoalwogel

2 жыл бұрын

Did the early Church ask Mary to, "deliver me from eternal punishment and make me an heir of your Son's glory" ?

@internautaoriginal9951

3 ай бұрын

Is the same for Ireneus “invocation” is the word for calling angels

The apostles did not teach prayers to the saints because they were not dead yet. It makes sense that the practice developed gradually AFTER the apostles died. But even before them in the Old Testament, you see passages where the Jews directly addressed prayers to angels, asking them to pray with us, e.g. Psalm 103:20-21 or Psalm 148.

@internautaoriginal9951

Жыл бұрын

I’ve never seen such out of context bible verses, there is no evidence for it.

@tonyl3762

Жыл бұрын

@@internautaoriginal9951 Claiming an interpretation is out of context does not make it so. If you were correct, you would be able to provide the context.

@RobertEWaters

9 ай бұрын

Sorry, but quite a few of the saints had died within a few years of the Ascension. And we Lutherans, too, embrace the idea that the angels- AND-the saints- pray along with us. We confess that just before we sing the Sanctus., and our hymns are full of the concept. But when David, in a song, calls upon the rocks and the sea and the sky to praise the Lord, is he really praying t the rocks and he sea and the sky? One of the hymns in our hymnal (not one of my favorites for non-theological reasons) calls upon the earth and the stars and the test tubes in a university chemistry lab to "sing to the Lord a new song." Do you really want to call such clearly poetic language addressed to inanimate objects "prayer?" No more does poetic rhetoric encouraging praise to God by entities we know already praise HIm continually constitute prayer. And the verses you cite DO NOT involve Jews asking angels to intercede for us, in any case. No passage in Scripture supports that idea.

@tonyl3762

9 ай бұрын

@@RobertEWaters Really? How many had died? That's great, but do you actually ask them to pray with you?

@internautaoriginal9951

3 ай бұрын

“Psalm 103:20-22 English Standard Version 20 Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, obeying the voice of his word! 21 Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers, who do his will! 22 Bless the Lord, all his works, in all places of his dominion. Bless the Lord, O my soul!” I don’t see any prayers. “Psalm 148 1 Praise the Lord.[a] Praise the Lord from the heavens; praise him in the heights above. 2 Praise him, all his angels; praise him, all his heavenly hosts. 3 Praise him, sun and moon; praise him, all you shining stars. 4 Praise him, you highest heavens and you waters above the skies.” Not seeing any prayers.

The Archangel Raphael says in the Book of Tobit, “Now when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord; and likewise whenever you used to bury the dead” (12:12). How would the angel have presented the petition to the Lord if he could not hear the prayer? Jesus, too, spoke often about the angels. In Luke 15:10, he says that all the angels in heaven celebrate more for one sinner doing penance. But what is penance? It is an interior alteration of the heart and will by satisfaction for a previous sin. This passage is biblical proof that the angels and saints have acquainted themselves in heaven not only with actions and words but with our very thoughts. What else did St. Paul mean when he said that “we are a spectacle to the world, to the angels, and to men” (1 Corinthians 4:9)? In case you want to reject the Book of Tobit, just know that it was part of the original New Testament canon, established by the Catholic Church. It was only removed 500 years ago by the Protestant Revolters.

@RobertEWaters

9 ай бұрын

Sorry, my misinformed friend, but first, the books in question are alleged to be part of the OLD TESTAMENT canon. They were rejected by Palestinian Judaism and were not part of the Bible Jesus used. The OT canon always acknowledged by a consensus of the Church as closed about a century after the Ascension, and Jerome, Athaasius, Melito, Cyril of Jerusalem, and many others rejected some or all of the "deuterocanonical" books, just as Palestinian Judaism did. Secondly, the canon of the New Testament was a "done deal-" universally accepted by consensus, recognized rather than established by the Church- long before the Councils of Hippo and Carthage ratified what was already agreed upon. There was no such consensus regarding the Old Testament books rejected by Palestinian Judaism, and no doubt the Church generally would have felt it presumptuous to add to the Old Testament Jesus used! As I indicated earlier, there was very far from a consensus that the Apocrypha was inspired Scriprture, and it took the realization that the Roman church couldn't defend its position from Scripture to get it to do what it had not done for a millennium and a half precisely because no consensus existed to justify it. But you are quite wrong. During the whole, long time between the closing of the New Testament canon and Trrent, there had been no consensus in the Western church that the "deuterocanonical" books belonged in the Bible. Luther didn't subtract books from the Bible; Trent added them. Jesus never spoke of anyone "doing penance." That's a gross mistranslation of a Greek word meaning "repent." simply "to chance one's mind." The entire idea of "doing penance" strikes at the heart of the sufficiency of Christ's work on the Cross. The entire Roman penitential system is built on a mistranslation of a simple word for a simple concept. It's really too bad that even now Catholics quote a mistranslation that has been understood to be such for centuries. So I'm afraid that the revisionist theology of Rome is wrong on both of these matters.

@Sonwalkers247

7 ай бұрын

The ability for an angel to 'hear' what your praying is different than praying TO an angel.

The logic is simple if prayers for the dead occurred which it did in Maccebees although not considered Inspired by Lutherans, it is still a historical witness to the practice in Judaism.. in fact even tertulain mentions the practice of prayers for the dead. Then prayers to the saints is a logical extrapolation Raba said: It teaches that Caleb held aloof from the plan of the spies and went and prostrated himself upon the graves of the patriarchs, saying to them, 'My fathers, pray on my behalf that I may be delivered from the plan of the spies'. (As for Joshua, Moses had already prayed on his behalf; as it is said: And Moses called Hoshea the son of Nun Joshua,17 [meaning], May Jah save thee [yoshi'aka] from the plan of the spies.) Soteh 34b Talmud So it’s def not a pagan idea in praying for the dead or praying to the saints

@Mygoalwogel

2 жыл бұрын

*Orthodox Compline prayer to Mary:* _On the terrible day of judgment, deliver me from eternal punishment and make me an heir of your Son's glory_

@RobertEWaters

9 ай бұрын

But as Dr. Cooper explains quite well, vague reference concerning practices honoring the dead need to be taken in context. That Judaism is a religion in which the afterlife is an open question renders the example in Maccebees a questionable historic wtness at best to general Jewish practice. Prayers for the dead to to a God Who exists in eternity makes sense from a certain perspective, although the practice can easily lead to unintended consequences. Bug in any case, there is no possible logical connection between prayers for the dead and prayers TO the dead!

@roshankurien203

9 ай бұрын

@@RobertEWaters Old Testament biblical epistemology: “And I will get reliable witnesses, Uriah the priest and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah, to attest for me.”” ‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭8‬:‭2‬ ‭ESV‬‬ “Bind up the testimony; seal the teaching among my disciples.” ‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭8:16‬ ‭ESV‬‬ “To the teaching and to the testimony! If they will not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.” ‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭8:20‬ ‭ESV‬‬ New Testament epistemology: “But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.” ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:16‬-17ESV‬‬ “And he called the twelve and began to send them out two by two, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits.” ‭‭Mark‬ 6:7 ESV “After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to go.” ‭‭Luke‬ ‭10:1‬ ‭ESV‬‬ “He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.” ‭‭John‬ ‭1:7-8‬ ‭ESV‬‬ “If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not true.” ‭‭John‬ ‭5:31‬ ‭ESV‬‬ “Tell us by what authority you do these things, or who it is that gave you this authority.” He answered them, “I also will ask you a question. Now tell me, was the baptism of John from heaven or from man?” And they discussed it with one another, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will say, ‘Why did you not believe him?’ But if we say, ‘From man,’ all the people will stone us to death, for they are convinced that John was a prophet.”” ‭‭Luke‬ ‭20:2-6‬ ‭ESV‬‬ So did Paul when his gospel was questioned : This is the third time I am coming to you. Every charge must be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.” ‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭13:1‬ ‭ESV‬‬ “and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.” ‭‭Galatians‬ ‭2:9‬ ‭ESV‬‬ “Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses.” ‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭5:19‬ ‭ESV So if I question. The Lutheran gospel. I ask for atleast 2 or three living witnesses, at the time the Lutheran gospel was first proclaimed: Conclusion: if the 2nd Person of the Trinity doesn’t bear witness on his own. How much much more must Luther show witness to his gospel. Or any other Protestant Unfortunately Luther not calvin nor Zwingli has no witnesses.

@internautaoriginal9951

3 ай бұрын

Talmudic prayers are not bounding to Christian doctrine , this same Talmud plasphemes Jesus 😊

@roshankurien203

3 ай бұрын

@@internautaoriginal9951 obviously not. The point is historical evidence. Like any other historical evidence. For Jesus existence outside the Bible we look to Tacitus, Thallus, Phlegon, Pliny the younger. Etc.

Dr Cooper, would you be willing to discuss this topic with someone with an Eastern Orthodox perspective? I feel like a lot of the discussion between Protestants and Catholics falls into dialectics and we as Orthodox believe we are a neutral 3rd party. Some great people to have on would be Deacon Ananias (Norweigan Nous), Fr Josiah Trenham, Fr John Whiteford or Kabane? I think a good discussion can be had here .

@GeorgePenton-np9rh

3 жыл бұрын

My understanding is that the Eastern Orthodox pray to saints just like Catholics do.

@yevgeniyreznichenko7484

3 жыл бұрын

@@GeorgePenton-np9rh I think you misunderstand what Catholics and Orthodox do wrt Saints. We ask the Saints to intercede on our behalf, this is scriptural and historical. You ask your friends to pray for you, why not ask other Christians to do so? There’s major points of departure such as the papacy and the western view of Thomism which permeates all western traditions but is foreign in the East. We can debate but I would suggest you look into understanding the East :)

@marlo8456

2 жыл бұрын

I've observed Protestants don't necessarily want to debate/discuss these kind of topics with Orthodox Apologists

@Mygoalwogel

2 жыл бұрын

"My queen and my mother, I give myself entirely to you; and to show my devotion to you, I consecrate to you this day, my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good mother, as I am your own, keep me, guard me, as your property and possession. Amen."

@Mygoalwogel

2 жыл бұрын

@@marlo8456 *Orthodox Compline prayer to Mary:* _On the terrible day of judgment, deliver me from eternal punishment and make me an heir of your Son's glory_

Prayers to the saints were done in the very earliest days of Christianity. There is a prayer to St. Joseph dating from 50 a.d. 50 a.d., do you understand how early this is? It is only twenty-odd years after Jesus's resurrection. It is before any of the books of the New Testament had been written, except Matthew, Mark, and possibly 1 and 2 Thessalonians. Prayer to the saints works Try it and you will see .

I am gonna be honest, as an experienced Catholic, this seems to be a great video by a cunning Lutheran.... Seemingly, there is a lot more for me to know, though I haven't studied the Catholic Church's response to such a controversial claim.....

@Mygoalwogel

2 жыл бұрын

*Orthodox Compline prayer to Mary:* _On the terrible day of judgment, deliver me from eternal punishment and make me an heir of your Son's glory_

@user-dj3is2qh2u

2 жыл бұрын

He ignored the evidence for it.

@tonyl3762

Жыл бұрын

Don't be fooled. He took Irenaeus and Justin Martyr out of context, plus lots of arguments from silence. He didn't mention any of the strong evidence outside of the Church fathers such as ancient Christian inscriptions (e.g. gravestones) and Rylands Papyrus 470.

Hermas “[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]). Clement of Alexandria “In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]). Origen “But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]). Cyprian of Carthage “Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy” (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

@love4gospel

Жыл бұрын

None of these tell us to offer our prayers to Saints

@EricAlHarb

Жыл бұрын

@@love4gospel they follow that those in the body are alive and should be praised. Especially the lady Theotokos. She must be praised above all creatures.

@love4gospel

Жыл бұрын

@@EricAlHarb if you can provide the quotations because as i have said, nothing in here seems to suggest that faithful should offer prayer to saints and i can even claim that quote from the Shepherd suggest that we mostly likely shouldn't.

@EricAlHarb

Жыл бұрын

@@love4gospel METHODIUS “Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father-the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]). “Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away” (ibid.). “And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’” (ibid.).

@love4gospel

Жыл бұрын

@@EricAlHarb thank you very much

@Dr. Jordan B Cooper As a protestant that has done a lot of research the last couple of years on Catholicism, Orthodoxy,and Lutheranism, I appreciate much of what you have said here. But one of the things that kept bothering me throughout your video is your phrase, "Prayers to the Saints." Catholics and Orthodoxes do not pray to the saints, but rather ask them to pray for them. There does seem to be a distinction with a difference, and I think this video would have been more convincing if you had specifically dealt with that distinction and pointed out why that was wrong instead.

@OrthobroAustin

3 жыл бұрын

The term pray formally means entreat, implore, ask... So in that sense as you yourself say, we do pray the saints to intercede on our behalf.

@OrthobroAustin

3 жыл бұрын

@@stpaulphillip so I just re-read the Akathist and it’s filled with lofty praise as is expected... But was oddly lacking in divine worship?

@OrthobroAustin

3 жыл бұрын

@@stpaulphillip Okay, there’s a lot of orthodox who don’t necessarily understand what they are saying - but I’m not trying to be mean or insult you so I’m sorry if I came off that way, I’m only asking what are you referencing in it that you say is worship?

@OrthobroAustin

3 жыл бұрын

@@stpaulphillip Cool, so what about the akhathist are you saying is worship? I’m genuinely curious and wanting to grow here. (But also there’s a lot of people with a masters degree in theology that differ significantly in their views and interpretation so that in itself doesn’t make you correct)

@OrthobroAustin

3 жыл бұрын

@@stpaulphillip Or maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean by worship

Dr. Cooper's historical critiques against the doctrine of intercession of the Saints is convincing enough, but his mode of interpreting the Bible and the Church Fathers would have us believe that there was no mature or complete Christian faith until the Protestant Reformation. He keeps calling the Fathers' exegesis "underdeveloped." Is he saying that Christianity was just a half-baked religion for the first 15 centuries after Christ?

@wilsonw.t.6878

3 жыл бұрын

He said their exegesis was sometimes poor. This is obvious in their anti-Judaism beliefs. So therefore things like incense would be rejected on their poor understanding of the Old Testament. They tend to cherry-pick verses, now they are saturated with Scripture which to me demonstrates Sola Scriptura. (just listen to a Roman Catholic who will quote A LOT more about the catechism of their church than Scripture, then read say the Treatise on Re-baptism or something). Cherry-picking out of context just isn't good.

@esoterico7750

3 жыл бұрын

It becomes even more problematic when you realize that almost all core Christian dogma like the divinity of Christ the trinity and the hypostatic union are based on this “underdeveloped” exegesis

@toomanymarys7355

3 жыл бұрын

You don't hammer out exact truth until heresy comes in, often. So you don't need a super careful articulation of Trinitarianism until someone starts teaching obvious falseness.

@GeorgePenton-np9rh

3 жыл бұрын

It all comes down to how do we interpret Scripture. According to Luther even a child of nine can interpret Scripture if the child is filled with the Holy Spirit. But look at all the disagreements within Protestantism! Nobody is really sure what the Bible means in any given passage. This is why we need the infallible teaching authority of the Catholic Church. See 2 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:16, 1 Timothy 3:15, and Acts 8:31. Let's say for a minute that the Holy Spirit does tell each believer what the Scripture means. If so, there would be no need for Sunday Schools, Bible studies, seminaries, or sermons. Everyone would just sit around and read the Bible, with everyone coming up with the exact same interpretation, right?

Hey brother, you said the Apostolic fathers had no belief in the inerccesion of the saints but I've recently come across some writings from them concerning this issue and would like to see how a well educated Protestant like you would respond. St. Pope Clement in his first letter to the Corinthians Chp. 56 says "Let us then also pray for those who have fallen into any sin, that meekness and humility may be given to them, so that they may submit, not unto us, but to the will of God. For in this way they shall secure a fruitful and perfect remembrance from us, with sympathy for them, both in our prayers to God, and our mention of them to the SAINTS." This was written around 90AD and tradition says he was a diciple of St. John and ordained by St. Pope Peter. Hermas in "The Shepherd" writes of angels interceding "“[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” The Shepherd 3:5:4, AD80. And this one is a bit of a stretch but, St. Ireneaus of Lyons believed "The Shepherd" to be inspired and as we've seen the writing supports the inerccesion of angels. Take your time to respond I know you're a busy man.

@stallard9256

3 жыл бұрын

That phrase of 1 Clement is actually rather obscure and the translation you've given is plainly the translator imposing their interpretation onto the text. There's a range of different translations, but a more literal translation one I found is "there shall be to them a fruitful and perfect remembrance, with compassions both towards God and the saints" (οὕτως γὰρ ἔσται αὐτοῖς ἔγκαρπος καὶ τελεία ἡ πρὸς τὸν θεὸν καὶ τοὺς ἁγίους μετ’ οἰκτιρμῶν μνεία in the original). The meaning to me is totally opaque, but it is clear that it is a rather poor prooftext for this topic. As to Hermas, the meaning is rather more straightforward, and is simply a case of unjustifiably reading into the text. The first thing to note is that the object of "such intercession" is actually ambiguous, and could refer to the angel or God, the latter reading clearly ruling out the sense you want to take "intercession". But even granting the former, the strengthening of the angel is given to facilitate Hermas petitioning God directly, so is clearly not intercession in the sense of vicariously petitioning God. The text also nowhere mentions that Hermas solicited the intercession, much less by petitioning the angel itself and not its Creator. We of course hold neither of these texts to be Scripture, and that Irenaeus believed Hermas to be some way inspired in opposition to other fathers means about as much as that he held as "apostolic tradition" that Christ ministered in his fifties (well, it does demonstrate that even bishops of the early church could be and in fact often were mistaken in their traditions).

@thecrusaderofchrist

3 жыл бұрын

@@stallard9256 Thank for your response!

@tonyl3762

Жыл бұрын

@@stallard9256 Why do Protestants hold Irenaeus up high when talking about the authenticity of the 4 gospels but with very little else? Why pick and choose like this? By the way, you are very quick to jump to impure motives on the translation, yet the source of that translation is not Catholic: Translated by John Keith. From Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 9. Edited by Allan Menzies. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1896.)

You don't find anywhere that Origen alluded to the belief in praying to Saints for intercession.? Search again.

As far as the "Fathers" of the Church go, who was the Ultimate Father?.....yes, Jesus Himself. And, what did Jesus say in the Gospel?...."Where two or more of you are gathered in My name, there am I in their midst.", and, "If two or more of you agree on anything (in God's Will), it will be done for you by My Father in heaven". Jesus did NOT specifically limit that number of persons merely to two Christians here on Earth, but also to those in heaven, continually in God's presence, where they are in an ideal place to take our requests to God. Not only that, but, when we honor and respect the Saints, we honor and respect the One who made, redeemed, sanctified those saints, and gave them the eternal life in heaven that they now enjoy forever. So, if you want to ask the saints for intercession, by all means do so.......they are waiting with open arms. In fact, the Bible tells us that the prayers of the saints rise to God like incense.

If you look back at my comment on your prior video, I conceded likely development from around 250 onward, but with general prayers asking intercession of Saints in all Divine Liturgies East and West by mid or late 4th century or at the latest by 7th century. Lex orandi, lex credendi. And yes there was further development up through the Reformation. But even the minimum that appeared universally in the Church's Liturgies and practiced for nearly 1000 years was "excised" by Luther. See prior comment for fuller argument. So I will wait for your next installment.

@toomanymarys7355

3 жыл бұрын

1000 years of error doesn't make the error okay. Frog boiling still gets dead frogs.

The tldw of this video: argument from silence. Since no written record of prayer to the saints survived he concludes the early church didn't pray to the saints.

@philagon

3 жыл бұрын

Incorrect. In fact he says starting at 7:30 that even though there is no evidence of praying to saints in the early church this by itself does NOT show that there was no prayer to the saints in the early church. This is the starting point of the discussion, not the end.

@philagon

3 жыл бұрын

@Nero IV If someone can trick himself into thinking he can pray to the saints as to God, as if they are omniscient, omnipresent, and worthy of what belongs to God alone, what lie could he not believe?

@RobertEWaters

9 ай бұрын

No, merely that there is no evidence that it did. And the burden of proof is on those who argue in the midst of that silence that they did.

@roymartin1385

9 ай бұрын

@@RobertEWaters you're just revealing your bias for written evidence over oral evidence and your ignorance on the argument from silence fallacy.

@giannihatzianmevris1861

7 ай бұрын

That's irrelevant, what matters is what the scriptures tell us.

In the Eucharistic Preface, we end with "And So with Angels and Archangels and all of the hosts of Heaven, we laud and magnify your name and join their unending hymn (then we as Lutherans go right into the Sanctus)

One thing they had wrong was the concept of the immortal soul. Luther rightly said it belonged on the dung hill of papal decretals. It’s a complete pagan concept that was made popular by Augustine who got it from Plato. His argument for the immortal soul was that math and logic lived in the soul. That’s an invention of the human mind. There is absolutely no basis for such an idea from Scripture. Unfortunately that nonsense was adopted by the church and clouded the way they read scripture. It forced them to spiritualize the scores of passages about the fate of the wicked, and redefine basic words like death, destruction, ashes, consumed, perish etc. It forced an insane hermeneutic that God spoke literally about the fate of righteous but metaphorically about the fate of the wicked. That is, of course, until John’s apocalyptic vision in Revelation.

Really good video and so important in this day. This could help many finish their dabbling in Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

@robertlivingston6964

3 жыл бұрын

Please include your thoughts on orthodoxy as well

@ikefink522

3 жыл бұрын

@Vine 101 so sorry to hear that! Are there still faithful Anglican parishes around you? When I visited Ireland I couldn’t find any Confessional Lutheran churches either.

@AlphaOmega888

3 жыл бұрын

"This could *help many finish their dabbling in Orthodoxy and Catholicism."* *-Question:* Is the the Mission of the Lutheran Church? to promote Cath/Orth to leave their Church? -(I think a many of you are in a *very bad place spiritually,* and are greatly disconnected from the teachings of The Lutheran Church. You can't discern even basics of what a Christian is. Anabaptists are the same American wolves that is also gutting out your church as well. Look at the stats just the past 10 years. The reason is because you are deceived into believing they are Christians, just because you both share American Pride. You sit and call them brethren and take their side in the war against your Cath/Orth brethren. But Lutherans know better than this. They know heaven isn't only for them. I'm just amazed that you are so 'far gone' and are clueless of the spiritual warfare that's taking place).

@Catholic-Perennialist

3 жыл бұрын

@@AlphaOmega888 But what if they are wrong in their opinions and the true Church is, in fact, Roman Catholic. What will be the penalty for having led so many to fall into the ditch?

@antoninoskomnenos1022

3 жыл бұрын

In favor of what? If not in the Orthodox or Catholic Church, where else will you find a visible, unified Church with the authority to bind and loose and forgive sins, exactly as Jesus said he would establish?

Are worship of aeons (of which prayer would necessarily be involved) comparable to the Saints or that of the Son and Spirit? St Irenaeus doesnt bring up the saints in responding to the gnostics because the clearer parallel is to the Son and Spirit. The aeons are emanations of emanations from the One. I dont know why he would respond to aeon-devotion with the Saints so I dont understand what the argument is there, it's a misplaced argument.

@meditatio7128

3 жыл бұрын

Can't speak for Dr. Cooper, but his point is Irenaeus makes no room for prayer towards something that isn't God, so if he believed in the invocation of saints, that would contradict how he structured his argument.

@TedBruckner

3 жыл бұрын

aeons (Greek) = ages. "Archons" is what Mr. Cooper should have been saying.

@jamesb0gginsw0rth63

3 жыл бұрын

@Ted Bruckner, Dr. Cooper is actually correct on this one. The emanations in the gnostic system are indeed called aeons. @Meditatio, I am aware that is Dr. Cooper's argument, I am just still trying to wrap my head around why he used this as an example. It is like comparing apples to oranges. The emanations are in no sense similiar to what the Church teaches about the Saints, and how the gnostics related to the aeons is in no sense similiar to the relationship we have with the Saints who minister to God in heavenly glory. In the gnostic system, one had to work their way up through the aeons (very simplified) until you finally reached gnosis. For those of us who ask for the prayers of our loved ones, including of those departed made Holy in the Lord, this is an act of directly participating in the Trinity. We don't need to first establish a relationship with the Theotokos, or St. George, before we can be edified by their supereffectual prayers. It is the *opposite* process. By being initiates into the Church, which is the hypostasis of the God-Man Christ, we are now joined not just to Christ in the Spirit but to our fellow Christians. We have a relationship to the Saints *through* Christ, not first a relationship to Christ through the Saints. This is why there is a "defeaning silence" from St. Irenaeus on the saints in his responses to the gnostics. Because the gnostics treated Christ as another aeon, and emanation from God. Hence why St. Irenaeus spends so much time arguing that Christ is not an 'aeon', but God Himself, and we worship Christ because He is God. Likewise, while Christ is eternally from the Father, He is not an emanation, because there is no dimunution in essence from the Father as source and the Son as begotten. They are co-equal in all respects save for the relation of begottenness. The closest quotation that Dr. Cooper gives from St. Irenaeus is from Against Heresies Book 2 Chapter 32 section 5, but the context is clear that "invocation of angels" and "incantations" are acts of magic to procure the ability to perform 'miracles', and are not requests of intercession to God for the salvation of our souls. This whole chapter is dealing with the claims that gnostics make that they perform miracles just like, if not exceeding that of Jesus. "Invocation" is not the same as prayer. In this context, "invocation" refers to the summoning of an angel to perform some 'miracle' on behalf of the person doing the invoking. St. Irenaeus points out that Christians likewise perform spectacular miracles, but it isn't through telling angels to do it, incantation, or any other kind of magical art, but through the prayer to and worship of Christ Jesus. @Vine 101, I am Orthodox, and while that is roughly correct I would phrase it much differently. We don't "invoke" God's energy, because that is textbook example of putting God to the test. The divine energies are simply God's operations and activities. To be a saint, that is, to be Holy, is to participate in God according to our capacity. We become like Christ, not merely in imitating His life but through union with Him. This is why it is astounding when people who object to requesting the saints for their prayer say things like "this would require them to be omniscient." Well, what else did St. Peter mean when he said we become participants of the divine nature? We don't become by nature omniscient, but we do become *participants* in God's omniscience. This is clearly stated multiple times in the scripture. St. Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 that we receive not just 'wisdom' but God's wisdom in union with Him. Psalm 50:6 (51 MT) likewise states God imparts His wisdom to us. In Revelation 5:11-13, St. John sees and hears and perceives the prayer of *every created thing*. St. Gregory the Great in his homilies on the Book of Job state that the Saints do not hear the prayers of the Church militant because of any natural capacity, but by supernatural, that is, those requests for prayer are revealed to the Saints by God.

@stallard9256

3 жыл бұрын

​@@jamesb0gginsw0rth63 The point is that, in the same way that it beggars belief to maintain image worship as apostolic in the face of every Christian apologist against Pagans condemning idolatry categorically without once so much as acknowledging, much less defending and distinguishing a Christian tradition of iconography (bolstered by positive examples of explicit condemnation of the same), it is absurd to suppose that someone who held to a system in which there is licitly offered various degrees of religious worship, of which God is only exclusively owed the highest, would ever argue the divinity of Christ by the liceity of worshiping Him. In fact, I really don't see how the Orthodox account of theosis via progressive henosis with the divine energies, which are separate and posterior to divine being, differ substantially from gnosis via aeons.

The New Testament states that Apostolic Tradition comes from both ORAL and WRITTEN sources. You have misstated the Bible. 2 Thess. 2:15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and cling to the traditions we taught you, whether by speech or by letter. "Whether by speech OR by letter."

@RobertEWaters

9 ай бұрын

Before the rather early establishment of the NT canon, yes. How else would the content of the apostles survive to be written down? A good practice might be to submit ideas to the authority we know is sound: the teachings of Christ and His apostles. It's a funny thing: unwritten "traditions" have a way of being corrupted or simply being created out of whole cloth. Good thing we can examine them in the light of Jesus and the apostles!

@hexahexametermeter

25 күн бұрын

It says "cling to the traditions WE taught you". He is writing to people he VERBALLY SPOKE TO. Both the Apostles and the Thessalonians are gone. NOW: Where does it say we should follow YOUR tradition that you CLAIM is apostolic? Hmm?

[The Shepherd said:] “But those who are weak and slothful in prayer hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do you not ask understanding of the Lord, and receive it from him?” [The Shepherd 3:5:4 (A.D. 90)]. And seek out day by day the faces of the saints, in order that you may rest upon their words.” - [The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles or Didache. (c. A.D. 80)]. Bible : ““Call now; is there anyone who will answer you? To which of the holy ones will you turn?” ‭‭Job‬ ‭5:1‬ ‭ESV‬‬ “For this very night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood before me,” ‭‭Acts‬ ‭27:23‬ ‭

@zacharyburkholder2704

2 жыл бұрын

The Angel is the Angel of God, Christ. It's hard to miss this in Hermas unless you take it out of context, like using lower case copy/pastes from Catholic websites when you Google "early church fathers prayer to the saints." The Didache is speaking of the seeking out the Saints, though the Apostles had died, seeking out those followers of them and resting on their teaching or, possibly, the writings that comprised the New Testament and were circulating by this point. The quote from Job 5:1 actually argues against prayer to the saints since it is sarcastically stating to that if God can't help you, none of these holy beings can, either. And? An angel is beside Paul. Plus you leave out, in verse 24, that God is giving to Paul, not the angel, who is merely a messenger.

@roshankurien203

2 жыл бұрын

@@zacharyburkholder2704 the quote is jobs friend Eliphaz…😂😂..asking why he uses the saints. We know exactly where Jobs friends stand with God When Infact he was corrected at the end of Job “After the Lord had spoken these words to Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite: “My anger burns against you and against your two friends, for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.” ‭‭Job‬ ‭42:7‬ ‭ESV‬‬ So no it doesn’t argue against prayer to the saint but for cos Eliphas was never right to begin with. So having him on your side is a bad idea buddy

@roshankurien203

2 жыл бұрын

@@zacharyburkholder2704 look at the end of the day you still need to have living witnesses to show what the truth is. Anybody can say just about anything. ..that’s how truth has always been established from Deuteronomy to revelation. There’s no way to establish truth just from biblical exposition alone. Cos you have to prove what is isogesis and what is exogesis. So you telling me what Paul says or didn’t say isn’t gonna really help, cos truth is also tested from “orthopraxis”. Let me assure you there was no Baptist/Lutheran/Calvinist 😂😂.. You can go through church history yourself

@zacharyburkholder2704

2 жыл бұрын

@@roshankurien203 I never claimed it was Job, I don't know where you got that idea. It has nothing to do with saints when the word saint or any other sort of being is within the context. If God can't help you, who can? His friends are refuted by God but this is not on the basis of denying the saints, it is upon their inappropriate speculation of Job and God.

@zacharyburkholder2704

2 жыл бұрын

@@roshankurien203 I'd say Truth was established from Genesis through Revelation, plus Scripture is self-authenticating. Not every piece of evidence in court needs to be witness-based, evidence can attest to its own truthfulness. And your argument works against you, what is stopping the church from false practice and belief? It happened with the rise of Arianism after the Council of Nicaea. Exegesis is from things such as context, genre, audience, and many other things we consider in historical methodology. Plus you're confusing what Sola Scripture is. It is not the Bible is perfectly clear (Revelation makes that point patently false) or that Scripture is the only thing you need. I'm coming around to Lutheranism since it hold tradition and church history in high regard. Sola scriptura holds that the Bible is the sole, infallible rule of faith. That's why we can point out the absurdities of groups and readings that clearly contradict Scripture on any number of bases. (As many church fathers did as well, by pointing out Scripture of tradition. See Basil the Great "On the Holy Spirit 7:16" or Augustine "On the Unity of the Church 4.7" or anything Athanasius did in regards to defending the Trinity.) Scripture is obviously not simple but it is not unknowable. If it was, it'd be a mystery God kept to Himself and it wouldn't be a part of His Revelation to us. You completely missed my point: Paul was receiving a message from God via the angel, I fail to see how that leads to intercessory prayers of the saints. Plus, even assuming there were no Protestant denominations in name amongst the earliest Christians, they were also not Roman Catholic, as Ignatius does not mention a bishop and its widely held that it was a plurality of elders running an monarchical bishop set up in Rome. Plus you can see the orthopraxis working against the Roman Catholic Church with its fundamentally contradictory dogmatic statements (Vatican 1 and 2 clash, the Council of Trent clashing with earlier dogmas of Carthage and Hippo). The orthopraxis is demanded of the Church, not Scripture. That's because the Church, not Scripture, has fallibility to it in its members. The member of Scripture, God, is infallible.

DID YEHOVAH THE TRUE GOD AND FATHER PERMITS PRAYING TO ANY OTHER APART FROM HIMSELF? THAT IS WHAT MATTERS BEFORE GOD YEHOVAH AND NOT WHAT PEOPLE HAVE DONE, ARE DOING AND WILL DO.

I'm more interested in patristic sources denouncing the alleged innovation.

@tonyl3762

Жыл бұрын

YES. You won't be able to find them.

@RobertEWaters

9 ай бұрын

First, I believe that Dr. Cooper cites a few. Secondly, misunderstandings of terms and practices that in themselves may be well and good can establish themselves as false teachings subtly and slowly, sometimes not even recognized as problematic until it's too late. Dr. Cooper did a pretty good job, I thought, of showing how this happened in the case of prayer to the dead.

@hexahexametermeter

25 күн бұрын

Yeah...probably redacted....edited...like what Rufinus did to Origen.

It would help if you acknowledge that catholics strictly pray for intercession from the saints, or in other words, the saints offer up our prayers before God, but are not gods or objects of prayer or worship themselves.

@Mygoalwogel

2 жыл бұрын

*Orthodox Compline prayer to Mary:* _On the terrible day of judgment, deliver me from eternal punishment and make me an heir of your Son's glory_

@RobertEWaters

9 ай бұрын

Nor is there any reason to believe that they can even hear our prayers, which is a bit of a problem.

@c.s.froggis9982

9 ай бұрын

@@RobertEWaters How on earth, pray tell, could Jesus Christ then talk to Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration? How could our Blessed Lord then claim to be God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, God of the living, not the dead? How could the rich man, in out Lord's parable talk with Lazarus and Abraham? Why did the Jews believe Jesus called to Elijah from the cross and were waiting to hear Elijah' s reply? Why did the writer of Hebrews, St. Paul, talk about the great cloud of witnesses? Why in Revelation are the elders -- saints -- specifically offering up the prayers of people on earth to God as incense?

@swim96ful

4 ай бұрын

@@c.s.froggis9982 I think the reply should be "Nor is there any reason *I want to* to believe" ;)

I think it is quite telling, and compelling, how little the early church fathers, up until the 3rd century, don't mention prayers to the saints or Mary. Nor do we see any veneration or powers attributed to Mary beyond a general consensus that she was involved in the virgin birth of our Lord, Jesus the Christ. This is the early church worship I would want to emulate. I wish there were more examples of how church services went during the first couple of centuries.

@swim96ful

4 ай бұрын

I think it is quite telling and compellimng how little the early church fathers mention the concept of Trinity - that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one ;)

@ToeTag1968

4 ай бұрын

@@swim96ful The concept was there, the word trinity came later. :) The persons of the trinity can be found throughout the old and new testaments. Allusions to Mary may be found, but never is call to pray to her for intercession. Some prayers to her, like the morning prayer to Mary, are downright concerning as to where someone's allegiance might be. Focus on God, not His creation!

@swim96ful

4 ай бұрын

​@@ToeTag1968 Thanks for your reply ;) Totally greed, we should focus on the Creator, not his Creation. Abuses around the concept of saints or Mary are the same abuses around doctrine you can see in protestant churches. We shouldn't mistake them for the actual beliefes, though. I would love to see a reference to the concept from anyone from the 1st or 2nd century that the Holy Spirit is the same as the Father as the Son. I haven't found one yet. You can find the concept throughout the Bible but this is the interpretation that came in later, especially as a response to some heresies around that time. The heresies arose because the concept of Trinity wasn't that clear to early Christians :) Btw, i am guessing you not only do not pray to Mary but also to the Holy Spirit as there is no call in the Bible to pray to Him. But you know, I've heard some people say we should pray to Him, but also I've heard some saying we shouldn't. I guess it's up to our own personal interpretation. We don't need a Catholic pope if everyone of us can have our own personal pope in our bellies ;) “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth." John 16:12-13 If Jesus started explaining the theology of the Trinity or the communion of saints, in my opinion, it would've been "more than they could bear". Jesus came to save us, to be our Redeemer, and to establish His Kingdom. He didn't come to teach us about the saints. He didn't even come to give us the Bible, as the Bible was recognised by His Church later on. The Spirit of the Church is meant to guide us to the Truth and be with us throughout the whole time. Communion of the saints, the Body of Christ, His Church, or the real presence during Eucharist was something that developed early on and has been with the Church until 1500s. The real presence in the Eucharist has been believed from the very early on. This is when by faith you believe that you truly receive Christ into your heart. Not metaphorically but truly. It is no longer you that lives in you, but Christ. When Calvin came in, he essentially refuted the promise of Jesus to be with his Church. Sure, it doesn't mean the people in the Catholic Church were sinless. But abuses of the people of the Church is not the same as what Church believes. Everything in the Catholic church that is beatiful comes from God, everything that is bad, abuses or scandals, come from our weak flesh. Praise God that He allows us to see His greatness in His Church.

@jeremybamgbade

25 күн бұрын

@@swim96ful The difference between the development of the doctrine of the Trinity as opposed to the development of Marian Theology, was that the former was a result of continued reflection on scripture, which is the word of God and therefore the highest authority in the church. Roman Catholic Mariology was not engendered by reflecting on scripture, but by introducing novel concepts, over time, in to the church, and then anachronistically claiming that their views on Mary are what church has always believed.

@swim96ful

25 күн бұрын

​@@jeremybamgbade Hi Jeremy! Please provide actual evidence to support your claim. I can quite easily provide evidence that is contrary to your claim "Roman Catholic Mariology was not engendered by reflecting on scripture". In addition, this evidence is from the very first centuries, even before the doctrine of Trinity was clearly established. Though, i do not claim that the doctrines on Mary were all known to very early Chrisitans. However, by the time we have the canon of Scripture well recognised around 4th century, most of the most imporant beliefs on Mary are also being recognised by the Church which is the foundation of the truth or the fullness of Christ or with whom Christ is always or the same Church that is meant to be guided by the Holy Spirit on the matters of faith. Here is a beatiful reflection from Irenaeus (2nd century): “Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey. Just as she, who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband-for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children, and it was necessary that they first come to maturity before beginning to multiply-having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith” (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]). “The Lord then was manifestly coming to his own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation that is supported by himself. He was making a recapitulation of that disobedience that had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience that was upon a tree [i.e., the cross]. Furthermore, the original deception was to be done away with-the deception by which that virgin Eve (who was already espoused to a man) was unhappily misled. That this was to be overturned was happily announced through means of the truth by the angel to the Virgin Mary (who was also [espoused] to a man). . . . So if Eve disobeyed God, yet Mary was persuaded to be obedient to God. In this way, the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so it is rescued by a virgin. Virginal disobedience has been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. For in the same way, the sin of the first created man received amendment by the correction of the First-Begotten” (ibid., 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

Even if they did, doesn’t mean it’s right.

@swim96ful

4 ай бұрын

Even if church fathers recognised which book are New Testament, doesnt mean its right

why you rely of church father instead of following the scriptures?

@swim96ful

4 ай бұрын

The Scriptures were recognised by the church fathers. Why are you following the Scriptures which were recognised by mere men?

still questioning prayer saints after more than 2,000 years.

Prayers to saints implies that they have attributes of God, such as omnipresence. Otherwise, how could they hear and answer prayers from multiple people from multiple locations simultaneously?

@gzoro8645

3 жыл бұрын

Revelations 5:13 By the Spirit, John is empowered & enabled to see the heavenly realm, and while he is there he can hear everyone on earth praying and worshipping God. That being said, it is not John who gains superpowers hah, it is by the Holy Spirit.

@cheryl9856

Жыл бұрын

If Jesus can, they can. His Divinity doesn't swallow his humanity.

@ecumemeical

11 ай бұрын

While they do not have omnipresence of themselves, we believe that they are able to, in a mysterious way, partake in the omnipresence of God by their union with Him through the Holy Spirit. It seems to me a contradiction of the Christian story that our love for our brethren, who are our own body, would cease when we pass from this world and into the fullness of the presence of God. Surely our concern and love for them, and our desire to intercede on behalf of the whole world, would be perfected in the fullness of the One who intercedes for the Church and gave Himself for the life of the World, not diminished.

Nice outfit.

Jordan, you got "had" with that so-called "A" in your logo.

Prayer is always worship? The guy who wrote Psalm 39 must have been convulsing in the spirit so hard like Benny Hinn's very MOM slapped him then

It’s nice to know that Luther corrected it where Jesus made a mistake when he established his church 1500 years ago. Thank goodness that Luther corrected all that 500 or so years ago.

@swim96ful

4 ай бұрын

Praise Luther ;)

Just debate Jay Dyer. I know you dont want to because "he's a meanie" but it shouldn't matter if the truth is on your side. He would be open to debate anywhere mediated or unmediated.

@justhappypills4812

3 жыл бұрын

@Arminius i disagree, also i dont get why if you come to a new understanding of a position and change thats wrong. Also did you know the fathers, apostles, and even Jesus insulted people? Not only that but to say he knows nothing when he has a masters in philosophy, one of the largest EO apologetics channels, and has made many converts shows a flaw in your argument. I also dont get it, so you can't debate with someone you don't like?

"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." The saints in heaven take an active role in intercession. The Creed: " . . . I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, _the communion of saints_ , the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting." The communion of saints is codified in the Creed. There is no need to state something so plain unless this communion is between saints both living and dead. Sub Tuum Praesidium: "We fly to your patronage, O holy Mother of God; _despise not our petitions_ in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers, O glorious and blessed Virgin." This prayer comes from the 3rd century. You may form a "church" to your liking by a selective reading of the evidence; but the only thing that matters is the evidence viewed from _within_ the development of the historic Church. Heretics and schismatics have no right to interpret what does not belong to them.

@sandromnator

3 жыл бұрын

You're are a fool. Communion does not mean "intercede". Dead saints cannot help you or do anything in the physical realm, which would destroy the "prayer to saints" blasphemy. The only people that cry out to God in heaven are Martyrs in Revelations. WE ARE ALL SAINTS according to Philippians 4:21, Ephesians 4:12, and 1 Corinthians 1:2 You are a heretic and necromancer for interpreting a creed and scriptures to fit your man made traditions of communicating with the dead.

@Catholic-Perennialist

3 жыл бұрын

@@sandromnator The entire Apostolic Church disagrees with you.

@eliasg.2427

3 жыл бұрын

@@Catholic-Perennialist Repent from this demonic practice.

@Catholic-Perennialist

3 жыл бұрын

@@eliasg.2427 Repent of your schism and heresy.

@Catholic-Perennialist

3 жыл бұрын

@That Lutheran Guy Don't spoil the fun!

You are NOT properly discussing "The Communion of the Saints" doctrine, which is mentioned in The Apostle's Creed. You are doing the typical misrepresentation of what the Catholic Church teaches. Not cool.

Just say jesus is our true high priest. Why go on About same dogmatic theories.

Pastor Cooper, You make a skilled argument from absence. BUT I'm afraid your survey of early Christianity is not quite complete. I think you should also include and treat: 1. Ante Nicene Prayers to the saints inscribed in the Roman catacombs 2. The early practice of gathering saint's' relics. eg if early Christians had no cult to the saints, then why did they gather Polycarp's bones? Catholics and Eastern Orthodox still collect relics... Lutherans do not. I think it follows that the former have a view of saints closer to that of the early Christians than do the latter. 3. What does 'the communion of saints' mean in the Apostle's Creed? 4. You might want to answer whether or not you think saints in heaven CAN pray for us. If you can prove some kind of soul-sleep, then fine, you have won your argument. BUT if you accept the Catholic view that the Saints are fully awake in God's presence offering up incense bowls full of our prayers, then why wouldn't you want your prayers in one of those bowls? 5. Finally! It should give you pause that you definitely can find the practice in 4 th century stalwarts like Augustine. Does he seem like the type to latch on to some new controversial heretical practice? Isnt it more likely that the practice is not mentioned in earlier texts simply because it was universally accepted and never questioned? Using your line of argument I think you could prove that the NT writers did not believe in the Holy Trinity😕

@leeenk6932

3 жыл бұрын

Revelation 5:8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. Nkjv Revelation 8:3-4 Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand. Nkjv These two readings out of Revelation have been used by catholic apologists to prove that the saints in heaven can hear our prayers, and then in turn offer our prayers to God. First rule is that scripture must interpret scripture, not presumptious ideas from human imagination. First who are the saints? Romans 1:7, 1 Corinthians 1:2, 2 Corinthians 1:1-2, Ephesians 1:1, Philippians 1:1, and colossians 1:1-2. Paul the Apostle who wrote these letters says that we here on earth who are alive, and who believe are not only called to be saints, but ARE the saints. Saints simply means those who are called out, the sanctified ones, the holy ones. Holy means called out from the world. So the prayers of the saints are our prayers offered by the angels in heaven. Does this mean that we pray to angels who then in turn offer our prayers to God because we prayed to them? No, Matthew 18:10 says that our angels ( signifying we do have gaurdian angels) always see the face of our Father in heaven. Scripture says angels surround us and hear our prayers to God, then offer them up to God in heaven. Hebrews 1:13-14 says angels are sent to serve us to help us for salvation. Also see Psalm 34:7, Psalm 91:11-12, and Acts 12:11,15, which shows angels encamp around us to deliver us. So they see and hear us pray to God then deliver our prayers upon the alter with incense to God. Does this mean God cannot just hear us himself and he needs angels to help? No because God knows all and and sees all, see Psalm 139:7-12. But God can and does use angels to his own glory, because He does all that he pleases in both heaven and earth, see, psalm 115:1-1-3. But where do i ultimately get this idea altogether? Well my fellow brothers and sisters who are catholic it is in your own bible in the book of Tobit which is rejected by protestants but accepted by YOU as inspired scripture, see Tobit 3 where both Tobit and Sarah both pray TO God, then read Tobit 12:11-22, where the angel Raphael reveals himself to Tobit and to his son Tobias that he was really an angel, and one of the seven angels of Revelation 8-11. The angel Raphael reavels that he heard and saw both Sarah and Tobit pray, and then in turn took their prayers before the alter of incense before the Throne of God. Revelation shows us the saints in heaven are at rest, and worship God, but do not seem to have any dealing with those on earth, see Revelation 6:9-11, 7:9-17, 14:13 and Ecclesiastes 9:1-10.

@kneelingcatholic

3 жыл бұрын

Mark, You honor me with your focused reply! I liked that you pointed out the harmony between Catholic Dogma and the Holy Scriptures. I only have a couple of disagreements 1. You seem to contradict yourself. You say the Saints "do not seem to have any dealing with those on earth" OTHER THAN delivering our prayers to God. That seems to me a little like saying that: the heart has little dealing with the blood OTHER THAN PUMPING IT!🙂 You do know, friend that it was not the Jehovah's Witnesses who revived the heresy of soul- sleep . It was the early reformers,like Luther and Tyndale, who used soul-sleep to refute prayers to the Saints. It was Calvin who woke the soul-sleepy reformers and kept them from starting their own 16th Century version of the Watchtower Society. 2. I cant think of a number 2 , so I guess we are not that far apart!!

@leeenk6932

3 жыл бұрын

@@kneelingcatholic Thankyou for your reply. I don't believe in soul sleep. And i never said the saints delivered our prayers, but the angels. The Angel Raphael delivered Sarahs and Tobits prayers before the throne. And since Paul calls us saints on earth who believe, then the angels watch and hear us, then delivers the prayers to God on the alter of incense.

@leeenk6932

3 жыл бұрын

@@kneelingcatholic i believe the saints are at rest from their labors, and are at peace and worshiping God in heaven. Im sure that the saints in heaven pray for the church on earth, but im not so sure if we can invoke them and they can actually hear millions of people praying at once. Worship Revelation 7:9-17 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and WORSHIPED God, saying: “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen.” Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and SERVE Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” NKJV At rest Revelation 6:9-11 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should REST a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. NKJV Revelation 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may REST from their labors, and their works follow them.” NKJV God bless

@leeenk6932

3 жыл бұрын

@@kneelingcatholic I suppose really we disagree on very little concerning this topic. I agree with you that the saints can and do pray for the church on earth. I believe we have guardian angels, and believe we can pray for those who passed that they are in Gods protection. I guess where we disagree is wether we can invoke saints. I heard before of Luther believing in soul sleep at some point. He was simply wrong!

Why don’t you see what the Bible says about it and not early church fathers. Jesus gave parables about the church going into apostasy after the death of the apostles.

@OrthobroAustin

3 жыл бұрын

So when do you think this “apostasy” occurred? And why do you hold that it was the church who apostatised rather than those who continually broke away from the church to start their own cults?

@cop2998

3 жыл бұрын

This comment simply make zero sense. The bible wasn't assembled and canonized as one book the the fourth century. It was through the church fathers from which you have the bible. Did God use an apostate church to assemble the bible? No of course not and we cannot ignore the church fathers

@stallard9256

3 жыл бұрын

@@cop2998 The Bible was the Bible before Athanasius or an African council wrote a letter listing the books in the Bible. The New Testament constantly refers to books of the Old as well as the New as divinely inspired. The Holy Spirit breathed them out, and the church merely guarded the Word of God which endures forever.

@UltraX34

3 жыл бұрын

This is wack. Jesus said hell would not prevail against the church (Matthew 16:18). The Bible says the church is the pillar and ground of truth (1 Timothy 3:15). Therefore if you believe that all the church throughout history apostasized and wasn't restored until later, you're saying Jesus is a liar.

@cop2998

3 жыл бұрын

@@stallard9256 yes the scriptures existed before anyone mentions a complete list. I never said anything contrary to this. But the new testament canon wasnt finalized until the fourth century (and neither was the full canon of the old) You can see there were disputes even about the book of revelation for example. So my point was that it doesn't make any sense to disregard the church that God used to assemble the holy bible. Both should be studied. And also it makes even less sense to say that the church apostasized after the death of the apostles, because that would mean God used at apostate church to assemble the bible.

church fathers is a catholic label. they are not scripture.

'Praying to Saints' is a *figure of speech,* but you guys ALREADY KNOW this. So to avoid this game, let us rephrase: 1 Tim 2:1 I ask that *SUPPLICATIONS, PRAYERS,* ***INTERCESSIONS,*** and *THANKSGIVINGS* be made for.. QUESTION: ***ARE YOU DOING THESE FOUR THINGS?*** (After all, the *EARLIEST CHRISTIANS* were doing them, and the *MAJORITY* of Christians *TODAY* are *STILL DOING THEM)*

@j.g.4942

3 жыл бұрын

Doesn't every Christian intercede between others and God? It's our priestly role. What's the prayer of the church every Sunday? What's my asking for peace for those on the other side of the world? Also what does 'prayer to the saints' mean to you if it's a figure of speech?

@AlphaOmega888

3 жыл бұрын

​@@j.g.4942 Notice that your response is to play *'the game'* just as I mentioned above. I listed four things the earliest Christians did it. Today over *60% of Christians* STILL do it worldwide. -But notice how you are avoiding *the confrontation* of that verse? What does that tell you? -If you are *cut off from heaven,* you will see it as *pointless* to contact your own brethren who are alive in heaven because you truly don't believe that Jesus saved anyone. -You also violate the Creeds of our Christian Faith when you *confess to believe* in communion with the Saints, but you really don't since you lack confidence they are alive in heaven and can hear you. Q: Is there a Lutheran 'out' specifically? A: Yes. You can say the Hail Mary as a Lutheran which satisfies this condition because she is a guaranteed risen Saint who can hear you. *Martin Luther commands it* if you CLAIM to be of the Faith (because he knows you need to meet the criteria of the Creeds which you prove through you actions) “He who has ***NO FAITH*** is ADVISED to *REFRAIN* from saying the *Hail Mary."* -MARTIN LUTHER (Personal Prayer Book, 1522). -->Means those who don’t say it, have no Faith! And these are likened to Pagans who will NOT make it to heaven.

@j.g.4942

3 жыл бұрын

@@AlphaOmega888 Sorry, I didn't mean to play a game I just didn't really understand your point. Every Lutheran church I've been to, and everyone within that tradition that I know, makes supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings for all the saints (especially the ones on earth). So yes, of course I am doing these four things; I thought 100% of Christians still do these. As to the communion with the saints, we commune with them everytime we gather for God's service, we gather in Jesus together with all the saints, to hear God's Word, to intercede for the saints, the governement and all those in need. Most of all we are physically and spiritually united together with all the saints throughout time and space in the reception of Christ's body and blood in Holy Communion (the common union). We're not 'cut off from heaven', we're united with it in Jesus through Holy Baptism by the power of the Holy Spirit, we stand with the saints who've gone before and confess our faith together in the Creeds, we pray together in the Lord's prayer, we recieve the Father's blessing together at the benediction. Maybe it's just my foolishness, but what's the confrontation in that verse? Also why do you or I care what Luther wrote in a personal prayer book? Lutherans don't hold to Luther, rather the Book of Concord (that summary of the Christian faith as taught from Christ on).

@stpaulphillip

3 жыл бұрын

@@j.g.4942 you’re not wrong.

@AlphaOmega888

3 жыл бұрын

@@j.g.4942 *"we gather..to intercede for the saints"* Lol wow. well.. I think that says it all! Truly, let this be a lesson for those with ears.

I watched and i have to say i am thourougly unconviced. though i suppose the main issue is that i don't accept sola scriptura so this line of criticism cannot get off the ground. Coupled with our different undersrtanding of what a soul is--or even what prayer itself (why you claim that saints cannot hear our prayers). A classical understanding of what a soul is (e.g the form of the body), faces no such obstacle. Asking for the prayers of the just, alive or dead, was a longstanding part of Jewish tradition. Jesus and the apostles were clearly aware of it. No one condemned it. None of the church fathers did, either, even those living closest to Jews. Wwhile i will grant the practice was uncommon (and there may be value in the Jansenist critique that it is overdone), prayers to/for the dead was never condemned. the idea that the reformers, 1,400 years removed from apostolic times were the first to get is strikes me as absurd. And, to me, a powerful rebuke of any protestant claim to continuity with Judaism. I have read the quotes by Ireaneus and Justin. and see nothing wrong. when i pray to a saint i am, ultimately, asking them to invocke the name (authority) of Jesus for me, not that of any created being. Lastly, I think it's fairly obvious that language evolves, and we do not invocke the souls of the dead in the same sense that Justin condemned (e.g necromancers). We believe in the communion of saints. We are one mystical body, in Christ, and it is only through his power that the saints may hear us in the first place. i won't bother past the second century, by then I think the evidence for the practice is already pretty good.

@TedBruckner

3 жыл бұрын

I like your thought. I'm thinking along the same lines as the title of the video but in regards the Mother of _the_ _incarnation_ God and working at reading Sy. Cryill's Catechism and to read other early Catechisms to see if praying to her is mentioned or if she's magnified (at all) since what is in Orthodox prayer books and liturgy seeminglt way out of line. Know you about this?

Mary Most Holy, pray for us. St. George and St. Louis, pray for us. St. Joseph and St. Andrew, pray for us. St. Fiacre and St. John of God, pray for us. St. Thomas More, St. John Fisher, St. Oliver Plunkett, St. Robert Southwell, and all you saints martyred by Protestants, pray for us. In the Lazarus/rich man parable, the rich man prayed to Abraham. At His transfiguration Jesus prayed to Moses and Elijah.

@Carver-uv3vi

3 жыл бұрын

The God-man prayed to His own prophets when He revealed His glory on Tabor? Now that is blasphemy.

@GeorgePenton-np9rh

3 жыл бұрын

@@Carver-uv3vi Read the passage for yourself. Mark chapter 9.

@Carver-uv3vi

3 жыл бұрын

@@GeorgePenton-np9rh what about the account of Transfiguration gives you the impression that Christ is asking the intercession of His prophets?

@zarnoffa

3 жыл бұрын

They were standing right there talking to him. Talking to someone right in front of you is a bit different than imagining your words travel to heaven and skip right past God and go to someone else.

@GeorgePenton-np9rh

3 жыл бұрын

@@Carver-uv3vi Jesus was not asking their intercession but He was talking to people in the next world. Prayer is talking to people in the next world. Just because there are no petitions or requests doesn't make it not a prayer. In any case it shows that the saints can hear the people here on earth.

Prayer to dead is not a good practice.

@nuzzi6620

3 жыл бұрын

They're not dead.

@GeorgePenton-np9rh

3 жыл бұрын

I agree. Do not pray to the dead. Do not pray to the dead. Do not pray to the dead. Pray to the living saints instead

@memememememe515

3 жыл бұрын

nobody pray "to" dead. we pray for them not to them... stop making straw man arguments dude! is dishonest!

@Mygoalwogel

2 жыл бұрын

@@memememememe515 *Orthodox Compline prayer to Mary:* _On the terrible day of judgment, deliver me from eternal punishment and make me an heir of your Son's glory_

@memememememe515

2 жыл бұрын

@@Mygoalwogel All denominations that respect tradition have prayer to saints... What;s your point! Actually until Protestants came into 15 century no Christian believed this to be a bad thing... You Protestants reject the Church Fathers, the communions, the saints... and worship a Bible.!

Orthadox church is the original church, all others are breakaways. Luther removef four books from the bible , wanted to remove james and revalations. Stop looking at the church as western.