This classic is one of the best and most important works of literature! I loved the stories as a teenager that inspired much of my own work and characters, though I do love the Odyssey more personally, this is still amazing and I always recommend it! I know people feel intimidated by the size and form, but there is So Much going on and is incredible!

I love hearing a passionate scholar talk about a great work.

I may be one of the few that preferred the Iliad over the Odyssey. I enjoyed the description of the battles and the hilarity of the Greek Gods.

@frankhansman2111

Жыл бұрын

I'm with you. I don't dislike the Odyssey but much prefer the Iliad.

@holdemagroin1167

Жыл бұрын

You're in good company, as most classicists see the Iliad as the greater work. The Odyssey is more of a popular adventure novel, whereas the Iliad is a window into Greek culture and their perspective on life.

@thomaszaccone3960

Жыл бұрын

Totally agree with you. The Odessy is a great adventure story. But the Iliad is a study of human emotions.

@joe56474

5 ай бұрын

I love both, but the Iliad is my favorite story of all-time. The Odyssey is my 2nd. I've read both numerous times.

Arguably my favorite story of all time. Huge into all the Greco-Roman myths but the Iliad in particular. My favorite part is honestly the gods and goddesses. Ironically there is more humanity in them than in the warriors of the Achaeans and Trojans. While I love that Hera and Poseidon don't even have to speak with one another to launch a plot against Zeus they just know it is not quite my favorite moment. (Keep in mind that outside the Iliad Hera and Poseidon are the most sly allies in all the Olympic pantheon.) My absolute favorite part is when Zeus lifts his ban on the gods and goddesses participating in the battle. The pro-Trojan gods (Apollo, Artemis, Ares, Aphrodite, Xanthus, Demeter, and Leto) spring into battle (except Demeter who stays in the city of Troy) while the pro-Achaean gods (Hera, Poseidon, Athena, Hephaestus, Heracles, and Hermes) await their arrival. Once the Trojan gods enter the battlefield the Achaean gods stand against them and in this opposition is my favorite jewel in all the Iliad: Xanthus the river god of Ilium is taken on by Hephaestus. Xanthus represents nature while Hephaestus represents innovation and thus Hephaestus wins as nature always loses to innovation. Athena the wise battle goddess takes on Ares and Aphrodite. Athena represents higher reasoning while Ares and Aphrodite represent base instinct which is why Athena is able to clobber them both as intelligence always out-masters base desires and emotion. Apollo, guardian of young men and boys, who had the gaul throughout the Iliad up until this point to proclaim he could defeat Poseidon now faces Poseidon.... and Apollo drops his bow amd runs away like a ninny. This represents how young men and boys are scared of and intimidated by grown men (Poseidon in this instance. Would've been Zeus but Homer had to maintain Zeus' neutrality so his near-twin brother Poseidon stands in for adult men) Then there is Artemis the guardian of young women and girls who squared off against Hera. Hera boxes Artemis' ears and Artemis runs away. Again this is demonstrating that women (Hera) are more powerful than girls (Artemis). Finally Leto and Hermes. They never actually fight. Hermes appeals to Leto that the fight between them would result in everybody losing as Hermes declares that he would wipe Leto, but then he would have to face the wrath of Zeus for striking his lover. Leto submits and retreats because of this. Here Hermes (the messenger of the gods) is invoking the power of religion: how the morals and virtues of Heaven trump everything anyway so why bother making an issue of it? Honorable mention to Poseidon's challenge to Zeus and his later appeal to keep them both out of the war. The Iliad is a wonderful book full of many treasures.

@Texasmade74

Жыл бұрын

Greek religion *

Is this what it means "to be classically trained"? I am so envious, so impressed. I would love to have had the ability to participate as a 3rd person in this conversation. We'll done.

@etinloki

Жыл бұрын

"Classically trained" or "Classically educated" refers to someone educated in the medieval system of education known as the seven liberal arts. They are, grammar, logic, rhetoric, math, music, astronomy, and geometry. That method of education was abandoned sometime in the late 1800's, and has only been partially revived in a modified form in some private Christian schools. Today, "classically trained" just means some one who has read a lot of Greek, and Roman writers.

Homer wrote a Book? What did Marge say about that?

@frankhansman2111

Жыл бұрын

You have demonstrated what is wrong with the world today.

@asmael666

Жыл бұрын

@@frankhansman2111 What would that be? Joking?

@frankhansman2111

Жыл бұрын

@@asmael666 precisely. Taking a serious matter and not keeping it serious.

@callum7081

Жыл бұрын

@@frankhansman2111 🤓🤓🤓

@HolySon

Жыл бұрын

Wit is the highest form of intelligence. D’oh!

Young people today need more heroes.

One of the best books I ever read.

Alexander the Great of Macedon, who basically conquered the entire world, defeated the Persians, and reached the South China sea, slept with a copy of the Iliad under his pillow.

@exchequerguy4037

3 ай бұрын

He would have had to go thousands of miles further than historians believe he went to reach the South China Sea. I think the furthest he got was the Bay of Bengal watershed.

I was pleasantly surprised to see Micheal Knoles using the Robert Fagles translation. Not only is that a user-friendly translation, but it includes footnotes that explains a lot of the ancient Greek customs that we don't understand, and an introduction by Bernard Knox about the origins of the story. And no, my comment is not a paid advertisement for that translation. I'm just a big fan of that translation.

The one I was wanting and waiting for!

Epic discussion! Glad to see you holding up the Fagles translation. Stanley Lombardo also does an excellent translation that is very accessible to the modern reader.

Fascinating! I'm a stay-at-home mom to 4 kids under 6 and I just love listening to the book club while doing chores! So interesting! Thank you for this content! 😊

@marchess286

6 ай бұрын

Good for you

Based and Greekpilled, do the Odyssey next.

I had to read this in high school. Amazing. Thank you for popularizing this opportunity!

I thought Achilles's rage was because Patroclus was killed wearing his armour(after he told Patroclus not to fight) by Hector. Memory a hazy though

@jl9205

Жыл бұрын

Agamemnon taking the girl is Rage Round 1. The death of Patroclus is Rage Round 2.

@Joseph_Dredd

Жыл бұрын

@@jl9205 Am sure you're correct. Haven't read the Iliad and Aeneid for 38 odd years - must be time to revisit them both! :) Thanks for a prod to take a walk down memory lane..

@fredjones554

3 ай бұрын

The rage of Achilles was due to Agamemnon taking back the war prize of Briceis. This was a great insult to Achilles. To take back the war prize was like calling into question his fighting abilities.

@Joseph_Dredd

3 ай бұрын

@@fredjones554 Ah that's it...had forgotten that part. Clearly I need to break out my copy and re-read.

Wow! That was fantastic!! I’m reading the children’s version with my boys right now

Thank you so much for this video, really informative and interesting commentary!

Gracias

Nice vid

I wish they'd give pointers on choosing with translation to get.. and reasons for the choices.

Why fonts are important.

For the love of God (Zeus), bring Joshua back for a discussion of The Odyssey!

I like how horse ranglers are magificent 😂 Such a simple time.

The fire reminds me of a course I took in college on organized crime… studying the Yakuza and how hourly violent they could be: known for hanging a person upside down, disemboweling them alive, and then cutting them down to pass in a mess of their own filth. Sorry - you were talking about gore, after all… the Yakuza story suck out in my mind as one of the goriest I’d ever been exposed to at the time.

Oh yeah. She's my prize! I want my prize or a better prize! Damn you! 😂

I hope they do the odyssey at some point

Me trying to get through a book of men arguing and getting poked near the nipple 😭

An interesting thing is Homer appears to be fairly neutral and talks up both sides. He seems to be particularly sympathetic to Sarpedon of Lycia who gets killed by Patroclus. It's not at all Greeks good, Trojans and their allies bad. I might have it wrong but I think there is an under current that Homer or whoever the author was, disapproves of the gods or seeks to ridicule them.

Man with emotional issues channels his rage to become a great warrior 😂

Helen is in it. Wut.

6th, 21 February 2023

I choose the farm! 😂

Careful Icarus...

Gotta follow this up with the Aeneid, BTW…

Well achillies has emotional issues so any request of him must be a work of art in itself. You dont just say "fine, you won. Give me the corpse, you maniac!" 😂

Make the Iliad boring in less than 5 minutes and... go.

Achilles wasn't gay. Contrary to modern perspective, the practice of pederasty was very look down upon if it ever breached anything beyond platonic love. Gay men, specifically The Men who were on the receiving end were very looked down upon by Greek society. This myth of widespread homosexuality among the ancient Greeks what's spread in the 1960s and 70s due to the publication of a very biased and poorly made book. Of the supposed 300 pictorial evidences of Greek homosexuality presented within the book, only about 40 being even suggestive with maybe twelve or fourteen being explicit. This is a myth and it needs to stop.

@TheNabOwnzz

Жыл бұрын

It was already known long before that. Nietzsche for example wrote that women in ancient Greece were only used for procreation. Besides that, the practice was oft normalized (see Plato in the Republic referring to a man taking another man in the same way as he would take a woman etc), and they all wrestled naked with eachother.

@Pepestock

Жыл бұрын

Idk bro, Plato pretty explicitly talked about being attracted to a young man at multiple points throughout his books Although I agree about Achilles, there is no proof he was gay but people like to project modern culture onto history

@zekeolopwi6642

Жыл бұрын

@@TheNabOwnzz 1. A lack of regard for women doesn't make one gay. And furthermore, period recourses state otherwise, and depending on the work, Plato himself looks down on pederasty once it bridges into being a sexual relationship. He himself believe that male relationships shouldn't be sexual at all. That they should go beyond that. A deep non sexual love (hence the term platonic. Bonk 🔨). 2. They wrestled naked to show off their bodies and physiques, not because they were gay. Similarly, they would also strip for practical reasons like not affording an opponent any easy hand hold with loose clothing. And since this was before the advent of the singlet 🤷🏽‍♂️

@TheNabOwnzz

Жыл бұрын

@@zekeolopwi6642 Then what does it make them? Asexual? Of course a lack of regard for women makes them gay. Besides, Nietzsche's point was to illustrate that the men were only into each other. Plato's beliefs changed quite a lot during his life indeed, but the fact that he wrote in the Republic that a conqueror ought either to enjoy himself with a youth (male) or a maid as though both were equally logical in societal terms does illustrate something about the customs of Ancient Greece. Not sure what you think of it, but two men wrestling naked seems pretty gay to me. But that was just an ordinary thing to do for the Greeks, as were gay activities.

@zekeolopwi6642

Жыл бұрын

@@TheNabOwnzz 1. No. It means that they didn't respect women. 2. In what writing did he say that? 3. No. It's only gay to you because eof the social context. Minoan women walked around with their breasts out. In today's society that'd be whorish or slutty. But then it was normal. Wrestling in the nude is only gay by modern standards because we made it such. Similarly it's gay to bathe with another man, but homophobic Christian Europe did it all through the middle ages. Educate yourself before you spout your nonsense.

The gods even bleed 🧐

Oh yes who know Alexander the Great real name actually last name? Anyone? Karanovich!!!

@Dakkonblackblade1

Жыл бұрын

What are you smoking man?

@captnthracian2501

Жыл бұрын

@@Dakkonblackblade1 if you learn who was Trachians,Dachans,Illyrians and Lepenski Vir and Vinchan culture,then you will know more about real true. Greeks came to Greece they lived there after troyan wars slowly taking land. All tribes was one nation before . Find “old nations of Davon” Sorbiodunum Old Sarum. All this bs about fake history Vatican changed in 16 century for purpose and German tribe.Not German people!

@captnthracian2501

Жыл бұрын

@@Dakkonblackblade1 find Harold Harrman archeologist and historian. Also Mario Allinei literature professor of EU. Porfirogenit write about Troyan wars and he was born 700 years after wars.All writings are with different hand shape written that mean is also changed and falsified.

@Dakkonblackblade1

Жыл бұрын

@@captnthracian2501 well m8 you really should provide some links for those claims

@captnthracian2501

Жыл бұрын

@@Dakkonblackblade1 old tribes didn’t disappear,they are still here!

Could those guys be bi? Did that society that created Homer also celebrate Bacchus / Dionysus? From worshipping a god of fertility to that of wine, pleasure, or debauchery? What sort of context was Homer living when he sent The Iliad down he generational vine?

The entier work is super gay. Guys trying to impress eachother and obtain trophies 😂

😂😂😂😂😂 bunch of fools

I just re-read The Iliad and finished it this morning and imagine my delight to see one of my favorite pundits, Michael Knowles, talking about it two weeks ago. Wow! Lovely conversation. I would have included how showing mercy upon his hated enemy and recognizing the shared humanity between them was the one and only way Achilles finally found peace.