I appreciate all of the suggestions about sodium citrate - the reason I chose not to use it is because American cheese already contains sodium citrate. So including American cheese in the sauce should be an easier way to achieve the same effect (at least in theory). But based on all of the comments, I'll try adding extra sodium citrate to see if that further improves the sauce, and I'll share my findings in the final recipe video of this series!

@santaclaus2115

Жыл бұрын

100% agreeing with other's bringing up sodium citrate and I also see your logic on leaving it out. The first time I heard of it was from Chuds BBQ in this video: kzread.info/dash/bejne/oYaO1cuRpNm3dKw.html where he makes his own American cheese. Anyway, what makes me intrigued, is that you can use whatever cheese you want and create your own American cheese with it. So you could make a purely provolone American cheese or cheese sauce.

@FoxxGotuje

Жыл бұрын

There is not enough sodium citrate in couple of slices of american to make the sauce runny enough. And in the moment you add this, you basically just can use even regular cheddar.

@BigBadBites-rw9vz

Жыл бұрын

Replace the whiz/american cheese with colby and cheddar cheese and add sodium citrate. The sodium citrate will both help emulsify the cheese and add that signature flavor you get from whiz. You can also drop the cornstarch entirely, you won't need it. This can be done using the microwave, heat up some cream or milk with sodium citrate in the microwave, add your shredded cheeses to the hot mixture and stir, then microwave in 30-second bursts and stir until fully melted. Add more cheese or cream/milk to reach the desired consistency.

@katiethecookinglady

Жыл бұрын

I came here to tell you sodium citrate too. 😂 Love this series. I think I’d use Cooper Cheese too. American Swiss is also good.

Sodium citrate is a common stabilizing ingredient for cheese sauce, it may also provide what you're looking for

@selfcritical

Жыл бұрын

Yep, evaporated milk plus sodium citrate will generate the texture he's looking for

@mattwheeler2112

Жыл бұрын

Agree, it’s the way to go for homemade “whiz”!

@Eclyptical

Жыл бұрын

Can confirm, literally just made queso using sodium citrate and corn starch this morning. It has now reached room temp and I can confirm that it is still runny enough to dip a tortilla chip in.

@CharlieAndersonCooking

Жыл бұрын

Yeah the reason I didn’t use it here is because American cheese already contains sodium citrate so I figured adding more wasn’t necessary, and I wanted to stick with using everyday ingredients. I’ll have to give it a try before the final recipe though! It’s possible that adding additional sodium citrate would make it even better, especially for the 100% provolone sauce.

@JohnLaco

Жыл бұрын

@@CharlieAndersonCooking Adam Ragusea did a video on it, and convinced me to buy a massive 1 lb bag online that I've only used twice haha. It is magic though. Might be the answer if you're going for the "best" version!

As someone who worked in a Deli for over 6 years. As far as American goes Cooper Sharp is absolute top tier.

@user-tr2sr1ym1l

11 ай бұрын

No New Yorker American is top tier When it comes to cheesesteaks Cooper sharp as good too but not as good as New Yorker American!

Two things: 1 your roux was probably undercooked, which is why it tasted bad. Wait until you smell the savory. 2. I agree that roux is unnecessary, but I learned a better method for a cheese sauce by accident. Step 1: melt cheese with butter FIRST. Step 2: once the cheese is fully melted, but before it browns, add in milk/cream while stirring vigorously. As long as you don't add enough to resolidify the cheese, you should be fine. Just keep whisking it in slowly until the cheese is incorporated. In my experience the sauce is the same quality, but you can make it easier and faster because you get the cheese protein to denature fully without risking the sauce breaking by overheating the cream.

@YouKnowMeDuh

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the tip about the roux. I was wondering why my last "light" roux tasted bad. It must not have been in the light roux phase yet haha.

@CharlieAndersonCooking

Жыл бұрын

I wouldn't say it tasted bad, it just wasn't exactly the flavor I was looking for in a sauce for a cheesesteak. A traditional mornay sauce uses a white roux, so you don't want to cook it too much. That's interesting about the butter method though, I'll have to give it a try!

@taio247

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for your comment; it saved me the time.

What do you think about using sodium citrate? It’s what American Cheese uses to make it meltable and it’s used in a ton of Mac and cheese recipes, maybe it could help?

@CharlieAndersonCooking

Жыл бұрын

Yeah I’ll definitely give it a try before the final recipe! I didn’t use it here since American cheese already contains sodium citrate but it’s possible that adding more would make it even better.

Note to self, don't watch while hungry.

Charlie - the cheese steak places in Philly don't use the Cheez Whiz sauce that you buy in jars at the supermarket. They use Cheez Whiz Spread - a higher quality product that you can only buy in 6.5 pound bags from restaurant supply stores.

If you can't get sodium citrate, you can add a bit of American cheese/processed cheese slice, which typically contains sodium citrate, instead.

@MattJHeisel

Жыл бұрын

if you can't get sodium citrate you can make with citric acid and baking soda exact ratios for amounts can be found in a google search of modernest cuisine

@fireblast133

Жыл бұрын

he was doing that in this video though, adding american cheese.

@vagabondcaleb8915

Жыл бұрын

@@MattJHeisel Ya and he never mentioned sodium citrate either. I was replying to the people in the comments who are all talking about sodium citrate.

Another excellent, informative video! Thank you so much.

Been here since you had less than 1k subs, glad to see your subs grow and your content is great as always, thanks, Charlie

Glad to see you got the Cooper Sharp. Great video - keep up the good work.

Charlie, I've been in the food/bbq business for nearly 30 years here in KY. Since Covid and the high cost of labor nowadays has really made it hard to find people that want to work. Having said that, I'm considering closing my brick & mortar location here in Louisville and doing something that is less labor intense and can reduce the staff, possibly 3 versus the 9 we need currently. Nonetheless, I'm considering buying a food trailer or truck or converting one of those wooden tool sheds into a unit. So... I've been watching your videos for a few weeks now and really enjoy your thoroughness and comparisons. I'm trying to reduce labor as much as possible so I will locate a bread supplier here, probably my current one. So, as you know from your experience, there are 3 things with cheesesteaks that make some cheesesteaks better than others. Quality of meat (Ribeye, I got), the bread I know what type I need. The only missing link is the cheese. I really like to try your cheese blend that you made with the NITRATE, provolone, white American...I think. I need to do something different that creates the WOW factor. I don't want to make the cheesesteaks lake everyone else. I need to make something unique, and I think the cheese would do it. Let me know your thoughts! Bruce

It’s all about the Wiz with provolone 10/10 because in Maryland everyone uses Mayo for that sauce component. But moving to Philly years ago that Mayo was just replaced with Wiz. I like Sharp prov for the funk, but mild prov is great

love this series

Made some rolls with your philly sub roll recipe, actually made half the recipe into sesame seed hamburger rolls and they were great, keep up the good work.

My method is to just add white American cheese to the milk/cream and SHARP provolone. The American will tone down the sharpness. The Sodium Citrate in the American will help keep it creamy. No need for the cornstarch with the mix.

Your finished sauce is what I would’ve recommended to begin with, here in Illinois(specifically central Illinois) we have what’s called a horseshoe. It’s essentially an open faced cheeseburger topped with fries and a cheese sauce. Everyone has their preferred cheese sauce but the traditional is essentially 50/50 American/cheddar in whole milk, I season mine with a splash of Worcestershire sauce and fresh cracked pepper. I used to make gallons of that sauce daily at the diner I worked at years ago.

editing of this video is great

Culinary cream is the secret to a good cheese sauce that won't easily break. Forget the sodium citrate. (The real trick is finding culinary cream. You can order it online or you can make it if you have the ingredients.) I made both yellow and white cheese sauces, in bulk, for the cheesesteak shop in a university dining hall, at my last job. Now, I did it in wrapped line pans in my steamers, stirring halfway through heating. But you can do it on the stovetop. So, it's equal parts by weight of culinary cream and cheese, with a little of, either, heavy cream, half & half, or milk to modulate the thickness if needed, plus a little salt and white pepper to boost the flavor. (Hint: Put the culinary cream in the cool pan first. This will prevent the cheese from scorching from contact with the pan as it heats.) Now, in my white sauce it was provolone and Monterey jack, and in my yellow it was American and mild cheddar. The reason for two cheeses in each was to have a better melting cheese like American or jack combined with the others. But, honestly, with the culinary cream it would probably work fine with almost any single cheese. Personally, Colby is my favorite yellow cheese, so I'd like to try a cheesesteak with a Colby sauce. Now, when we were out of culinary cream we had a recipe with heavy cream and corn starch, but it definitely breaks easier. Sodium citrate being added, in that case, may be the way to go.

@beastmastreakaninjadar6941

Жыл бұрын

This made me look into recipes for culinary cream. (also known as cooking cream, btw) The internet is all over the place on this, though. The ingredient list on the Minors brand that we used is this: WATER, BUTTER (CREAM, LACTIC ACID), LACTOSE, 2% OR LESS OF SODIUM CASEINATE, XANTHAN GUM, WHEY PROTEIN CONCENTRATE, SALT, GUAR GUM, POTASSIUM SORBATE (PRESERVATIVE), CITRIC ACID Now, the Minors culinary cream is much thicker than most cooking creams, which are even thinner than heavy cream in some cases. My guess is that this is due to the gums because, aside from the citric acid, salt, and (unnecessary for our purposes) potassium sorbate, it's basically milk and butter. So, the way I'd probably go about this is to temper and emulsify milk and citric acid (or lemon juice) into some ghee or clarified butter (the butter is for the fat here and the milk is for the protein chains, basically) for the cooking cream and then proceed with the cheeses and seasonings from there until I got the consistency and taste I wanted. The mornay sauce is also a valid route, but you've got to be sure your roux is fully cooked so that the flour fully incorporates to avoid the grainy texture. I was making crappy roux for years at work until a chef actually took the time to show me how it's done properly.

I grew up in NH, and in the Northeast we have steak and cheese subs and steakbombs (steak and cheese plus mushrooms, onions, peppers, and sometimes pepperoni or salami) that rival the Philly cheesesteak (fight me Philly.) I always ordered mine with mayo and it seems to be an anomaly; most people are confused by this but I agree on the sauce situation. A steakbomb from one of the local pizza/sub shops is still the first thing I get for food when I visit home.

There's also the sodium citrate method for creating a cheese sauce.

in nyc we have the Philly cheese steak with chipotle mayo. and they've been doing that since at least like 10 years ago. I usually got it with cheddar cheese or Swiss cheese or American cheese. Im sure other cheeses would be good too- its also key not to skimp on the cheese

What brand of bread are you using for the sandwiches?

Pro tip from a South Philadelphian, which can be controversial. Mayo & American w/ fried onions is the way to go.

for the beef stock cheese mixture you tried out, perhaps a beef gravy/cheese sauce would be better suited for a cheesesteak?

Try using Velveeta and creating a Mexican queso style cheese sauce.

At one point when I was making cheesesteaks at home I made a homemade cheez-wiz using provolone and sodium citrate. I thought it turned out great :)

Thank you

Im from St. Louis, In St Louis our we eat provel cheese which is a blended cheese product. It sounds like it has the characteristics you are looking for. Look into provel cheese. Its not for everyone, but in St Louis we eat it on everything.

You should double boil your american to melt it, add something like heavy cream or your preferred milk. Grate in the other cheese you prefer for an accent. If it isnt coming together add an emulsifier like butter or sodium citrate.

Just use straight colby. For American cheese, use Organic Valley.

Secret ingredient try adding ketchup when grilling your onions, you will not believe the taste difference. Boars head white American Cheese and there you go.

I was a chef for almost 20 years and everything you explain in your videos is so spot on. I love your channel it's excellent. There's a fantastic book on what to use for all sorts of food substitutions called What's A Cook To Do? by James Patterson that seems right up your alley if you don't have it already, it gives great advice on what to use if you don't have an ingredient that the recipe calls for. Thanks for all the work you put into these videos it's very much appreciated🤌🤌🤌

You mentioned that your mornay sauce was grainy. That’s because you didn’t add eggs (or egg yolks) along with your cheese. This helps emulsify the cheese in, and it’ll be perfectly smooth. Also you should never be able to taste flour in your roux/sauce. There’s a fantastic video from Italia Squisita on béchamel from a Michelin two-star chef. His instructions on the roux and béchamel are perfect. He also turns béchamel into a mornay in the video, and uses egg yolks. I’ve found you can just use whole eggs, but egg yolks maybe makes the sauce creamier. A LOT of KZreadrs drop using eggs in their mornay. It’s a surprisingly common mistake. And you’ll see a lot of them complain about the grainy texture as a result. Hope this helps. I’m fine if you decide against mornay still, but I promise you can make a perfectly smooth cheese sauce with it.

@r.s.marcus3043

Жыл бұрын

Egg allergies are huge in our country. No cheese steak shop wants that trouble to list warnings.

As I’m watching the video, I’m realizing that you would get a far better sauce with the lazy man’s method by using a double boiler. Gentle gentle

if you add Worcestershire to the steaks, it will be the bomb. When I cooked these steaks like 5 years ago, I came to the same conclusion ... but I didn't write down what I did. You need to make a sauce, needs to be creamy, milk is it or heavy cream along with the cheeses. Add Worcestershire ... and the sandwich will be a dream, the best you have ever had, HEAVEN! I did go to Philly and tried so many sandwiches ... but none came close to what I had made.

You should check out how to make cheese sauce using sodium citrate. I have made cheese sauces with it and they have been amazing.

I love sharp provolone, so that would be fine for me.

If you’re ever in Columbus you GOTTA check out warios beef and pork in Columbus Ohio their cheesteaks beats the Philly out of this world and use a very similar sauce to what you used in this episode but it’s their own version of it. It’s worth the drive from Cleveland

@Grayald

Жыл бұрын

I don't know if I trust anything that Wario cooks.

@CharlieAndersonCooking

Жыл бұрын

That's definitely on my list of places to try! I've only been to Columbus once and didn't make it to Wario's that time, but I may have to make another trip.

What if you did the French method with tipo 00 flour??? I’ve been doing lots of NY pizza with double fermentation and tipo 00 and thinking it could be a game changer. My wife makes Mac and cheese with the mornay method for a decade

You can use sodium citrate to make most any cheese really melty and creamy.

FWIW, cheesesteak provolone is typically pretty mild, so your decision to move away from sharp provolone is actually more authentic. As a Pennsylvanian when you mentioned that the cheesestake you had was a sharp provolone my immediate thought was "that doesn't sound like it'd work well".

@TurtleC0mic

Жыл бұрын

As a fellow Pennsylvanian I’ve always heard the opposite and that sharp provolone is what I’ve always heard to be authentic and what most places use.

@Broski__

Жыл бұрын

@@TurtleC0mic It's typically mild prov for cheesesteaks, and sharp prov for roast pork sandwiches.

Kraft deli singles are American cheese that contains sodium phosphate a stablizer that helps the cheese melt but not turn to glue once cooled.

this channel great

Cut to the chase, save the efforts- use Provel (a StL 'thing' of Cheddar, Swiss, Provolone)

I know it's not traditional but I love nacho cheese on my phillies

Make the cheese sauce with smoked gouda!🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌

Bobby Flay did a provolone sauce in his cheesesteak Throwdown, check out that recipe.

I cook the steak, throw in american and once it melts and starts to get a bit goopy I use water to thin it out, works in making a sauce like coating all over the steak

Next level cheese steak = with fried shallots for crunch!

You shouldn’t be heating it in a pan - it is much too hot and unstable. You should be using the Bain Marie method, so it is heated gently and can also be kept warm without drying it out. It will also be much creamer and smoother done this way.

I clicked on this because I thought you were Ethan when I saw the thumbnails. lol. Subbed anyways to see what your channel is like. cheers.

I think "Tim Ferris"... mentioned in the 4 hour chef.. there is some "food additive" you can add to your cheese to make it blend well & be saucy... That or it may have been adam ragusea who said it? Anyways if you look around you'll probably find what I'm referring to. And then I read the comments... looks like I was beaten to the punch.. & by people with better memories, lol

Try a cheese steak using Cooper Sharp cheese its 🔥

The grainy texture is not from the flour, it is from the cheese separating. This is caused by heating it too high or too long (after melting the cheese), or counterintuitively *not enough flour*, as it is the starch molecules that prevent the cheese proteins from binding together and forming grains. You also need to bring the sauce to a full boil for at least 1 minute before adding the cheese otherwise the flour will not fully bloom.

@beastmastreakaninjadar6941

Жыл бұрын

Actually, if a roux isn't cooked long enough it will have a grainy texture because the flour and butter didn't fully incorporate. A light roux is harder than most people think, mainly because it's already blonde in color as soon as you combine the butter and the flour, and so it usually is cooked too briefly. You have to cook it right and watch it closely for it to actually lighten in color and soften in texture, and it can be really hard to spot.

Adding cheese to a cream sauce is a waste of money. The cream already has the flavor of cheese, and you'll basically be adding a very expensive salt. Putting the cheese on the grill with the meat, and getting a bit of cheese melty caramelization would add flavor though. Also don't add flour or starch, instead just reduce the cream. What I would do: First caramelize your onions (in oil), you could throw your salt and pepper in with the oil, or any other herbs and spices. Once caramelized, add the butter, or margarine (I would usually use garlic margarine) and then add the cream (and au jus / broth / soup stock if you want) reduce till it thickens. The more you reduce the thicker it will become. The sauce should turn slightly brown, because of the caramelized onion, once it hits the sweet spot. A sour ingredient is will pop in a cream sauce (Lemon juice, tomatoes, vinegar, ect.) cheese will not.

I think I mentioned this in a previous video. I personally am a huge fan of the sharp provolone funk, but I don't think I'd like it by itself in my cheesesteak (John's Roast Pork being my favorite). It needs the red gravy (tomato sauce). It adds some extra umami to the sandwich as they have mushrooms and carrots diced up into their gravy. The pizza steak option gives you that saucy component, it compliments and mellows out the funk, and brings the whole thing together. Next time you're in Philly give it a try. Trust me, I'm fatter than you.

Another awesome video. This is a random question, but are you starting to get tired of Philly cheesesteaks after trying so many of them? lol

@CharlieAndersonCooking

Жыл бұрын

Haha I'm usually tired of them for a day or two after filming a video like this but since I'm making these smaller sandwiches, it's not too bad!

I love cooper cheese, best american cheese by far imo.

Only 1 type of cheese, Cooper Sharp American baby! Land o'Lakes is a close second

Aged Provolone and sodium citrate a touch of cream. Look deeper into JKLP he has cheese sauce recipes with citrate

Sounds like you didn't cook the mornay properly. It's technically three different methods combined. First, you start with a rue (you must cook it until the flour flavor goes away (which is where I believe you made your mistake). Then, add the cream or milk a little at a time until fully incorporated in order to create a bechamel sauce. Finally, add the cheese to form a moray sauce that is rich, creamy, and full of cheese flavor. If you cook the rue correctly, there will be no flour flavor or gritty uncooked flour texture.

I was raised about an hour north of Philly, and they put a tomato sauce on the steak sandwich.

My favorite cheese for my Philly Cheesesteaks is Boars Head White American

So don’t use evaporated milk! Use half and half or heavy cream.

Coopers Sharp ftw

Nobody melts the American cheese before they put it on the beef. You pit the slices right on top of the beef while it cooks and melts on the meat.

Have you tried doing the “Science Method”, bring 1 Cup of Milk to warm through, add in 1/4t Salt, the. The magic ingredient of 2-1/4t of Sodium Citrate, then 8oz of what we shredded cheese you want. Take off heat and use an emulsion blender under very creamy. This will hold as a sauce even after refrigeration! The sodium citrate creates the emulsion after blending) and keeps it stable. I make queso all the time using this method!

Lay your box grater on its side and grate away from you. So much easier.

I appreciate you using easy to access ingredients and I saw you mentioned you wanted to avoid sodium citrate but I think you missed the opportunity to make a sauce that includes the cheese you like and a bit of American cheese (easy access sodium citrate!) to change up the texture of the sauce

You want a product from Land o lakes called EXTRA MELT 2 parts EXTRA MELT 1 part water You melt it together

I use chipotle mayo on my philly cheeser

Fun Fact: Enid Oklahoma makes the most Philly Cheesesteaks per day in the world..

I figured.

you need sambal belacan!

I love all the work you put into your recipes, but I have to say, provolone is dull and lacks salt. As a guy who grew up on cheesesteaks, American or Whiz are more flavorful and more appropriately match the steak. Any time I see a restaurant offering provolone on a cheesesteak, I immediately know they don't have it right.

Im impressed, I'll let you in on the local secret. You eat a cheesesteak with mayo it goes on the bread and ketchup that goes on top of the meat. The mayo on the bread which combines cheese and create the same effect you did in the video. Lastly ketchup, please ketchup.

Sodium hexametaphosphate, don't use a roux The easiest way would be milk, white American cheese, and provolone

hmmm why didn't you just make a cheese sauce with a stronger tasting cheddar but adding sodium citrate to get that goverment cheese meltability and creamyness plus pretty sure it helps with suace breaking

Oh hey, hello fellow cleveland person.

New England cheesesteaks just use mayo and it’s great, but I guess then it wouldn’t be “philly”

Before you butcher a Philly Cheese Steak, the best route for you might be a plain steak with salt pepper and ketchup..

American cheese is a real cheese. It's a mixture of cheddar and colby.

Charlie, almost no one uses sharp provolone on their cheesesteaks. You should try Cooper Sharp, a lot of the top joints use that as their go-to. It has the same melty quality of American, but has more flavor and slight bite from the Cheddar. I would highly recommend you try this before you make any final decisions.

@purrloftruth

Жыл бұрын

please watch the video -- he specifically talks about using cooper sharp as one of his tests

@sldtrooper

Жыл бұрын

@@purrloftruth I did watch, it happened to be at the very end. In the Philadelphia area, American cheese and Cooper Sharp are two different cheeses. Throughout his videos, he kept referencing American cheese.

You need to make a pinned comment about why you chose not to use sodium citrate, the comment section is getting antsy.

@CharlieAndersonCooking

Жыл бұрын

Good call haha

lol everyone commenting sodium citrate xD

I think you're out of your mind, this doesn't need a 'sauce', just a good healthy dose of provolone but to each their own.

Im confused why you're not using bell peppers. Aren't they classic to the sandwich? While I don't like mushrooms on them, aren't they also classic?

@Broski__

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely not. That is the standard on a "cheesesteak" from anywhere that isn't within 100 miles of Philly. A normal steak in Philly is American cheese and fried onions. Ketchup is very popular too.

@taystorm

Жыл бұрын

I was wondering why no one is using ketchup. We always put ketchup on our cheesesteaks in Philly. I get upset if they forget the ketchup when I order

You didn't cook your rue long enough that's why it's grainy and had a flavor, you should cook it till you smell baked cookies.

sodium citrate

Queso?

Doesn't provolone literally make a Philly a Philly? Edit: Til no

@BamBam_PDX

Жыл бұрын

No. Whiz is the traditional choice.

@TurtleC0mic

Жыл бұрын

@@BamBam_PDX lol nope, provolone is the number 1, wiz being number 2 here in Philly

The main trouble with cheese steaks is that they're unseasoned. Who eats that caveman ish? Pepper and garlic should be minimal requirements for cooking beef.

two words: sodium citrate

@Grayald

Жыл бұрын

Good call. I don't think he saw it the other 50 times people posted it in the comments.

Just put ketchup on it

Surprised your research didnt reveal this, but the Whiz used by places in Philly isnt commercially available and very different from the jarred product you can find in the grocery store.

@CharlieAndersonCooking

Жыл бұрын

I did find that out, but it wouldn’t really make sense to recommend people buy a giant tub of it haha. I think the retail stuff gets you close enough.

@rogerwilcojr

Жыл бұрын

You are absolutely right, Ben. The Cheez Whiz Spread is actually made from cheese (milk, whey, ...). The retail stuff lists canola oil and maltodextrin and the number 3 and 4 ingredients, with the first two switched. The inventor of Cheez Whiz said the stuff in the jars tasted like axle grease (of course, after they cheapened the recipe). It's a shame how Kraft (and others) have ruined what used to be great products and actual foods.

You could turn the provolone into "American" cheese by adding a sprinkle of sodium citrate. That's all that american cheese is at its bottom. I do that for mac n cheese with sharp cheddar. Best of both worlds!!

Don't try to fix what ain't broken

You say burgers even need ketchup or mustard. So just put ketchup on your steak. Totally standard topping. Problem solved.

@taystorm

Жыл бұрын

Exactly

@foofghtr

3 ай бұрын

And some hot roach peppers and oil. 😂

This is an overdone solution to a problem that doesn't actually exist. Two slices american to 1 slice sharp provolone. Melt the cheese on the grill and mix it into the steak. 100% of all the problems solved.