Get a special HelloFresh discount offer here: mtchm.de/5mdzw or use my code POGHF106508 on hellofresh.com. Thanks for watching everyone! Been awhile since I've made a video here where I have no idea what the community consensus on the topic is, let me know your thoughts! *Patreon:* www.patreon.com/mockrock *Second channel:* kzread.info *Twitter:* twitter.com/MrMockRock *Twitch:* www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch *Teespring:* teespring.com/stores/mockrock *TimeBolt affiliate link* (excellent software I use to speed up editing on my videos, use code "MOCKROCK" for a discount): mockrock--timebolt.thrivecart.com/order-page/

@YourLocalNobody420

Жыл бұрын

Hello fresh more like…greetings sweet

@squid_kid5108

Жыл бұрын

I’d love to get hello fresh, but I’m poor :)

I think fox laser is really overlooked. It isn’t game breaking, but fox’s specific kill confirms allow for it to shine in combination with his excellent movement

@Kzy365

Жыл бұрын

Yeah it really does SHINE out in his kit

@adrianoamram2140

Жыл бұрын

Mockrock = click

Жыл бұрын

@@adrianoamram2140 What?

@MariokibmibYT

Жыл бұрын

Hehe shine

@ohhi687itsme8

9 ай бұрын

You devious little-

The Pacman item pull gets my honorable mention. What a creative way to include pacman's source material into a fighting game! And very high skill cap to boot.

@TheRedCap30

Жыл бұрын

Yeah plus it works really well with hydrant in the context of his moveset

@100organicfreshmemes5

Жыл бұрын

@@TheRedCap30 Absolutely this, the number of ways Pac-Man can combine his items with the Trampoline and Hydrant is ludicrous. Pac-Man is one of the best designed fighters in the game IMO.

@djevebran2432

Жыл бұрын

Tbf I just really love Pac-Man's Design overall and interactivity between his tools. Going for a janky setup character was such a good Idea to pull off this yellow ball But the central piece in this design I think is more Hydrant, Creating those new ways to use every attacks and projectiles. The only thing is that it comes out probably a bit too fast, and the opponent should be allowed to punish it if done too close

@sheridan5175

Жыл бұрын

Yeah but in practice bonus fruit is annoying as shit

@Jellyman1129

Жыл бұрын

As a Pac-Main, I couldn’t agree more! 🍒🍓🍊🍎🍈✈️🔔🗝️

Thank you for mentioning Shuriken Of Light, super underappreciated move. One thing I will mention is that SOL actually combos into 90% of his kit, including grab, even if it’s shielded, as long as you shorthop along with doing SOL.

@erikhepp4144

Жыл бұрын

100% I love all the miis but swordfighter always felt like they were just missing "something" to me. As soon as I switched to shuriken their entire kit started to feel so much more cohesive and I can't imagine not having it. One of my favorite characters now.

As a Piranha Plant main, I have to say that Ptooie is both faithful and a versatile move, it is faithful not only in the sense that is a move from the games, but also in the sense create a kind of protection above you, which makes the oponent want to avoid that space, like Mario need to avoid that space in a Mario game. And is very versatile as it work as edgue guarding tool, a combo breaker a trade option, etc.

@profturquoise

Жыл бұрын

Scrolled down to the comments to say exactly this! I joke that I just main Ptooie and the rest of the kit too I guess. Perfect integration of source material, it has as much utility as one could hope for, and it defines Plant's entire game plan

@caw64

Жыл бұрын

I absolutely adore Plants design, not cause he’s a phenomenal character, but because his counterplay is literally “don’t go above him.” His upsmash, upthrow, ptooie, uptilt, all are great and it’s hilarious.

@profturquoise

Жыл бұрын

@@caw64 The antiairs are strong, which makes sense! Plant is basically the chief mascot of "pwease no steppy" game design

@Endershock1678

Жыл бұрын

While I'm not a huge plant fan, I think his ptooie is a phenomenal move.

@kittyratrawr

Жыл бұрын

ptooie is so broken on the worst character lol

As a Ridley main, Space Pirate Rush, his side b, has got to be one of my favorite of his move. They way he just drags them across the ground the lauches them is just so satasfying and so uniquely ridley. Also the name is pretty great.

@phoebe5114

Жыл бұрын

The final KO screen with that move is so brutal and animalistic and this is what I love Ridley for. A surprisingly tactical character who still feels like a boss character. He's my main too lol

As a lifelong Link Simp™ I'm glad my boi got a mention :D especially since you've already discussed his glorious spinny goodness elsewhere. As far as other special moves I'd consider for something like this, I feel oddly compelled to suggest Dancing Blade despite its relative simplicity. Not sure why, but it always feels so good to land all the hits :D

Actually for the move Rest, you said High Risk and High Reward, exactly this is what Rest in Pokemon does. It completely fills the HP and restores Status condition, but you will be vulnerable for 2 Turns because the Sleep Rest induces is set to 2 turns.

@baconator_x4098

Жыл бұрын

Rest is not high risk, high reward. It is low risk, high reward if you know how to use it except in doubles where is it is just bad. - Use with chesto berry to get one turn wake up - It helps cure other status conditions - Combine with the move sleep talk you can still keep your ability to attack. In gen 2 sleep talk could even be used to rest again for free healing - Always use it on bulking pokemon who are very hard to kill meaning you will have plenty of time to wake up

@joelogbamichael7177

Жыл бұрын

@@baconator_x4098 No, rest is very much a high risk move. Two turns doing nothing is a long time in Pokémon against someone who is at least semi-competent. And dedicating two of your moves or a item to just a worse healing move then almost all others (recover, roost etc…) seems like high risk medium reward.

@mipho5899

Жыл бұрын

@@baconator_x4098 there are always ways to get around the risk factor, this is Pokemon after all. But as a raw move it's exactly what I mentioned. Focus Blast is the High Risk and High Reward move of all time in Pokemon. But even that move had ways around it by using gravity, increasing the accuracy stat or use wide lens. Everything has a way around it, but what matters is just the move. Or does Jigglypuff eat a Chesto Berry after she uses rest? It also doesn't matter the context of bulky or frail Pokemon or whatever competitive aspect of Pokemon. The move is the move and not the way it is getting used in competitive.

@baconator_x4098

Жыл бұрын

@@joelogbamichael7177 I mean I never said there was better. Rest is reserved for mons without better methods of healing. Suicune for example in Sword and Shield OU has a 98% pick rate. Keep in mind I mainly play doubles. What I do know is that rest is used on the mons who can afford stick around for 2-3 turns

@baconator_x4098

Жыл бұрын

@@mipho5899 Funny that you call Focus Miss high risk, high reward. Every competitive player knows "My focus blasts never land, but my opponent's always does."

My favorite special in the game has to be K. Rool’s Blunderbuss. It’s an incredible transition from its origin game to Smash, it’s a slow moving projectile you can walk behind AND absorb it back (even if reflected) with the suctioning portion… Oh yeah, it also has a suctioning fuction that serves as a command grab and interesting ledge trap option (especially with platforms). And that’s not even covering the amazing sound design on it. It may not be the most useful tool in his kit but its design imo is immaculate.

@Glory2Snowstar

Жыл бұрын

YES! THE SOUND DESIGN IS SUCH AN IMPORTANT ASPECT! It's why Long-Stem Strike is my favorite Move! We don't praise Ultimate's sound design enough, it contributes miles to the game feel!

@moosesues8887

Жыл бұрын

The whizz sound effect is hilarious

@PrettyKoolCrocodile

Ай бұрын

Same, I freaking love K. Rool's design in the game!

Oddly, Bowser Jr’s Eject is one of my favorite special moves. First of all, it kind of fits Bowser Jr. and the Koopaling’s personalities, where in a last-ditch effort, they sneakily jump out of their clown car to escape and let it explode… but then they’re stuck helplessly falling down… but they also have a hammer swing. If feels like Mario boss fights where they utilize an attack, unknowingly allowing Mario to use it against them, and then sometimes adapting with a counterattack. Aside from simply theming, the move has many elements that make it special. If the opponent gets too close, it can be used as a get-off-me tool, as before the clown car explodes, it stuns the opponent so that Bowser Jr. can escape. When used in the air, the clown car also falls a bit so it opens up the potential of being used to getting out of juggling situations. After jumping, Bowser Jr. is sent into a pseudo-freefall, in which he can only airdodge or swing his hammer (or wand if it’s a Koopaling). I like this because it doesn’t leave Bowser Jr. completely useless, but he doesn’t have much. The hammer swing is a strong attack that incentivizes the opponent to think carefully about how to punish the falling child. It provides enough mix up options so that the user can potentially recover if stuck falling onto stage, but not too much that the last resort move can be used carelessly. The move does suffer from the fact that during the initial leap, any attack erases all upward momentum, making it incredibly exploitable, but for the most part, it’s a great move. Above all, watching Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings helplessly fall is hilarious.

@maxlimit9129

Жыл бұрын

It can also kill confirm out of side b at certain specific percents, rewarding the Jr. player for matchup knowledge and awareness. That being said, the fact that he can get hit out of it and not get the cart back... yikes.

@gibraltar4841

Жыл бұрын

I ain't reading all that also I farted

@phoebe5114

Жыл бұрын

I'm an Iggy secondary (he has the most psychotic energy) and yeah, I love this move too, for every reason you said. And somehow a possibly self destructive move feels right for him lol

@dmfyre

7 ай бұрын

Very insightful! Also, 'punish the falling child' is a funny way of phrasing that lol

I think my favorite special move in ultimate is Byleth's Sword of the Creator. Tethers have always been so cool to me and Byleth's allows for the most creativity and can provide some amazing rewards if you understand how it works, best shown off by the one and only MKLeo. I would love to see more moves like it in platform fighters.

@MrMockRock

Жыл бұрын

See, I really like Sword of the Creator as an attack, but personally I think Ultimate's recoveries are too strong overall and tether recoveries with auto-aim are one of the categories I'm not super onboard with

@_lensi_4169

Жыл бұрын

That move is so underrated

@jonathanlgill

Жыл бұрын

@@MrMockRock Especially when an offstage spiking mechanic is included into the mix!

@axr1798

Жыл бұрын

@@_lensi_4169 Mockrock literally called it the 4th best in the game.

@justice8718

7 күн бұрын

@@MrMockRock Byleth is one of those few characters who do need that kind of recovery

Mine’s got to be Corrin’s Pin, that move is crack and Ultimate nerfed it to make it less broken. Not by any means perfect, but I love the options you have out of it and the versatility of timing mixups, etc.

@futureddude4250

Жыл бұрын

Preach

@Jackaljkljkl

Жыл бұрын

Pinning platforms (or the stage when landing) and flying around the stage like a lunatic never gets old. I always wondered why Corrin gets so much heat for being boring to play, when she is the least boring of the eight FE reps, IMHO.

@YoshiAteTooManyYoshiCookies

Жыл бұрын

​@@Jackaljkljkl I wouldn't say least boring, more like most enjoyable. Because let's be honest, regardless of what you think of the FE reps as characters, you have to admit they are all fun to play.

@Glory2Snowstar

Жыл бұрын

@@Jackaljkljkl I think it narrows down to Corrin as a character, personally. Not fighting game character, character-character. Fire Emblem fans don't like them because their personality is flat and Fates has garbage writing. Smash fans don't like them because their inclusion is solely because of promotional motives and it stole a slot from (what they thought at the time were) potential Smash Ballot winners. Their physical design just doesn't stand out. It's a real shame, the concept IS super cool and I like how they're effectively a playable Carpenter's Thing. It just makes me wish they had more freakish flavor, y'know?

Imo, if Steve's neutral B weren't broken it would be one of the best specials. Other than that, Sora's Magic is really fun and opens up a lot of different approach/kill options

@Endershock1678

Жыл бұрын

If Sora's specials were a bit laggier, I would really like them, but as they stand, make me wanna rip my hair out.

@theillusionist1494

8 ай бұрын

Honestly, Steve’s neutral B being broken is completely warranted. Minecraft is not only the biggest video game of all time, it’s also a game you can do ANYTHING in. Having Block blatantly break the rules of Smash and force your opponents to fundamentally change the way they play the game by using creative, intricate counterplay is absolutely an accurate representation of the limitless depth that Minecraft has. Minecart, on the other hand-

@keida8843

8 ай бұрын

@@theillusionist1494They should have made the powered minecart rails only work on the ground. In the air steve should have less mobility with that move, especially with that insane armoured startup. In exchange, minecarting on the floor shouldn't drain that many resources. The minecart exit making it a command grab is way too funny to remove though

@justice8718

7 күн бұрын

@@Endershock1678Sora’s specials are very laggy. Nair and fair aren’t.

Sheik is really a character that doesn’t make me feel cheated in any way when I lose to them. When you lose, you got outplayed.

@Endershock1678

Жыл бұрын

It depends on the MU for me. I used to have a really good Sheik and sometimes, if I played against Sephiroth or DK or Ganon, I felt genuinely bad for them when I was done.

One of my favourite special moves is probably ryu and ken’s focus. The move has some broken aspects, like the frame one armuor, but is balanced out by multi hits, and still provides a useful way to recover, techchase and stay aggressive, and even just move. It ends up being a multi purpose move that isn’t super broken in any aspect, while still complimenting the way ken and ryu are designed

I want you to know that the pause at 11:47 had me cackling. Well played sir, well played

Little Mac’s Straight Lunge has to be one of my favorite specials. It is a fairly simple one, but the way it was buffed in the transition to Ultimate made a not so great move into a solid move overall. From being able to reverse the punch to catch different positioning, to cancelling the move to bait approaches or save yourself from using it to attack is just cool to me. Speaking of cancelling, it’s one of my favorite changes to any veteran’s move in Ultimate. On paper, it appears to look similar to other “Big Moves” such as Falcon Punch, but ends up having that same level of commitment with some added versatility. Part of me wished Straight Lunge had a little more heavy armor to break out of combos (which is another reason why I love this move; a diet Focus Attack) and work slightly better as a mix-up for recovery, but it is for sure a soft spot special move of mine

Definitely agree with Revenge being on this list. Giving a slow close range type of character a way of dealing with projectiles that doesn't require shielding or dodging is very welcome and should be done more. And it's not like it just invalidates projectiles and guarantees a follow up like every other counter/reflector in this game seems to try to do. Requiring the Incin player to go on to make a play after getting revenge is a big part of what makes this a well designed move imo.

glad to see swordfighter here this truly is the mii renascence

The Belmonts’ Holy Water is, like, ALMOST my favourite special. If it were just a little bit easier to get access to the bottle for item plays, I think it would be perfectly designed.

Wolf Flash is one of my favorite moves in the game. Feels super satisfying to land and is essentially an instant KO offstage, but it requires matchup dependent setups, precision, and a decent amount of game knowledge to use effectively. One of Wolf’s biggest weaknesses is that he lacks a spammable kill option like a lot of other top tiers. Bair and his smash attacks hit like a truck, but they are also pretty slow and not the easiest to line up against an evasive opponent. Wolf Flash essentially allows Wolf players to convert safer tools into a kill, but requires the player throw everything on the line and trust in their execution to pull off. It’s very similar to your points on Jigglypuff’s Rest in a lot of ways. Wolf’s kit is definitely designed to synergize with it, but landing Wolf Flash is not a dominant win condition and still requires skill and a good deal of risk to pull off, leading to one of the flashiest kill moves in the game.

@competitively3315

Жыл бұрын

I’m also a huge fan of this move. I’ve always loved high risk high reward moves and this one is at the top for me.

Glad to see Flame Choke in honorable mentions. That move is still one of the most interesting command grabs in a platform fighter I've seen. But another side b that deserves more praise is Rapture boost. It might not be Falcon's most famous move, but in my opinion. Perfectly represents his playstyle of risk reward.

I would have mentioned Space Pirate Rush. (Ridley’s side special) Not only is it a great reference to his canon abilities and a cool reference to Brawl, the animation and concept perfectly capture the evil of Ridley. In terms of gameplay, it perfectly completes Ridley’s kit. It works perfectly with Ridley’s ability to condition shield at the ledge, run up shield, and dash back. Additionally, it sends the opponent offstage for free, which perfectly emphasizes Ridley’s two biggest strengths, his edgeguarding and ledgetrapping. The risk reward is extreme on both ends with its high end lag, which encourages Ridley to take risks despite his good pokes and horrible disadvantage state.

My favorite thing to do with quick draw is to fully charge it to recover and then lands and immediately dash attack. It's fast af, looks really cool and they never expect it

No Smash 4 Witch Time? Inarguably the best balanced move ever.

I want to give a shoutout to Wii Fits ball. It's another projectile, yet it comes with a hail mary spike to style on people and, while not nearly as versatile as Links bomb, can be made use of in many different ways by utilizing your odd moves and hitboxes. Those being a core part of their identity to me. They're not fighting, they're doing Yoga and playing sports, which naturally results in really weird attacks, and the ball serves as both encouragement and reward for you to play around with them.

Hey MockRock! Thanks for including me in the video, even if it was just a ten second clip lol. I just wanted to give some more insight about rest. Jigglypuff in Ultimate is the first incarnation of the character that feels complete. With increased utility on jab (one of the few genuinely great jabs in the game) and fthrow, Jigglypuff is a much more consistent, well balanced character than her extreme appearances in the past 3 entries of the game. In fact, I don't play Jigglypuff because of rest; I play her because, until the release of Sephiroth, Jigglypuff was the only multijump character with good airspeed. This enables unique movement and combo routes that I love about the character. Jigglypuff HAVING rest is generally more scary than her actually using it, with puff mains ranging from myself to Bassmage generally not opting to use the move that often due to the move's risk. However, the fear of the move means that players can't risk throwing out stupid laggy attacks in her face, as she'll punish you at stupidly early percents as in the clip that you showed of me. Overall, I think rest is an incredibly designed move in Ultimate as it's one of the "Big Moves Of Smash" that she always has access to, unlike waft, that is no longer what her entire kit is designed around, but a staple of her kit that allows for some pretty hype moments from time to time.

@MrMockRock

Жыл бұрын

I'm only a very casual, occasional Puff player myself, but I'd say pretty much the exact same thing!

Shout-outs to Mii Gunner's spiking Up B that causes non-competitive players to actively give up their recovery just to have a fun and totally unique way to meteor smash, give it just a bit more recovery and I could call it a contender for a mention

@Jackaljkljkl

Жыл бұрын

As an aside, Arm Rocket:s lack of landing lag is completely unique for that kind of UpB move. It makes moving sideways across a stage with it as actually a viable movement option. Lunar Launch is destroyed by the fact is doesn't grab ledge with his back to stage, which is terrible for a character who uses Fair to recover, lol.

11:44 now *that* is a pause for laughter (or groaning) and I love it.

@FedoraKirb

Жыл бұрын

I’m ashamed to say I needed that pause for the pun to set in.

A character built around mechanics like the revenge mechanic would be really interesting: scraping up damage where it can, but when it cashes in, it's incredibly powerful.

The "Playing with fire" pun was fun! And the whole video excelent as expected, great job man :D

I KNEW Incineroar's revenge was going to be on this list. For three games straight, counters were a beginner's lesson in the concept of reads, and a decently done one at that, but being stuck with one locked the character out of a moveslot above casual play (unless you were Bayonetta, at which point you might as swell just handcuff your opponent), Incineroar comes along and proves that counters can be designed to be both effective, exciting, and not over-bearing. That being said, every other option here caught me by surprise, so much so that I can't think of a move I want to nominate to this list. After seeing the hellofresh ad, however, I also want to hear about the teacher you live with. What pronouns do they use, what's thier relationship to you, and most importantly, what subject do they teach? Teachers do not get enough credit in this day and age, so tell them that I admire their choice in profession.

Duck Hunt's Trick Shot (the can move) is probably my favorite move in the game and it's on a character I don't even play. I'm a huge fan of independently-controllable projectiles in fighting games because they allow for a lot of creativity and interesting play, and this is no exception - Duck Hunt can set up lots of interesting and wacky things with this move. But, importantly, the way the opponent can also hit it themselves means it doesn't feel anywhere near as oppressive as many other strong projectiles can feel in this game. I think it strikes an excellent balance between being a powerful character-defining projectile with lots of creative uses and setups, while still allowing additional counterplay options aside from "shield it or avoid it".

Pokemon Change is a very unique and amazing special move given it allows access to 3 characters in total whos kits are nothing without the other 2. Squirtle is speedy, light, and nonexistant in attack range but can combo to mid percent really easy, then plays whiff punish any higher than that in order to tack on minor percent. Ivysaur is a mid-weight slow zoner 'swordfighter' archetype who uses medium-small sized disjoints to pepper opponents while making use of a versatile albeit slightly random and very laggy projectile with some kill power tacked onto a few moves. Charizard is a high ground speed meh airspeed heavyweight where a majority of his moves can kill at upper percents but he lacks meaningful followups to early percent hits leading to playing more for reads for big single hits and playing whiff punish. on their own, each of them would be much worse as fighters, but when put together they're a formidable team with a plethora of advantages and disadvantages that require a true master to extract the full potential from. You can't just favor one, you need all three to work as a proper team to go above and beyond the power level of a singular character at the expense of being REQUIRED to follow the switch order, and a few universal weaknesses that if the opponent is aware of them are easily exploited.

Ness PSI Magnet is one of the best designed moves imo

Giant Punch. I feel like when it's fully charged, it's better to just not use it as the opponent will be scared shitless and shield more often so long as DK holds the charge. And you really don't want to shield too much against a character known for their grab game's kill power.

Loved this video, sometimes it's really nice to gush about how GOOD some moves are from a design perspective. As much as I can't play her, Sheik is such a tightly designed character that I love watching all the time. You're right, it feels FAIR. Really good, but not busted. The pre-DLC days lol. Great video man!

-Oh boy, MockRock gets to gush over Kirby’s neutral special again :D- Ok, makes sense, you already had a great video on Kirby. I have to say, I’m glad that even with the updates complete, you can still make content analyzing this game’s design, its really fun!

Considering you mention at the end that you had a lot of moves in mind for this list, I would love to have an append video on MockRockTalk about those, as I very much enjoy hearing you talk about the games balance and this video was a joy to watch. More please ;)

I feel like special moves don't feel very... special in this game, you know? A lot of the time they can feel like extra normals or simply have very straightforward applications with little room for creativity. I'm not asking Smash to have Rivals levels of complexity, but weirdly enough one of the most well designed special moves is actually villager tree in my opinion. It has multiple stages, but what really puts it over the line to me is how many applications the tree has, and the fact that you can use the watering can and axe in combat. It results in a move that has a lot more variety than most moves in the game

@MrMockRock

Жыл бұрын

Yeah this is a reasonable complaint that I think has gotten a bit better over time, but there are a lot of specials in Smash that have always felt a bit tame.

One of my favorite moves even before I actually picked up the character is Marth and Lucina's neutral B. It's a relatively slow and laggy move that is risky to spam and yields little to no reward on anything but shield, but a strong mix-up that yields great reward if you read somebody shielding, which is perfect characters with a generally weak grab game, especially since the most used variant, the uncharged, doesn't break full shield, meaning you have to hit someone's shield, then force them to shield again. It also has the ability to b reverse and grants a very niche recovery mix-up.

Let's see... my favorite special move... I'll go with Meta Knight's Down-B. I really enjoy the risk-reward of whether to fire off the attack or not, since it has huge end lag with one of Meta Knight's stronger kill options. Recovery mix up is something I won't complain about. My honorable mentions got to Hero's Down-B because it is way too funny so much of the time, King Dedede's Up-B for being in my opinion one of the most satisfying spikes in the game that displays full mastery over your opponent, Piranha Plant's Side-B for helping deal stupid amounts of damage that is, again, just funny, and Ness' PK Magnet for being the closest thing Ultimate has to Melee Shine and encouraging Ness players to not spam his projectiles and get up close.

Your editing and script writing is just top notch. I'm always impressed by the topics you choose and the execution.

I know Samus' design isn't the most loved but I do think Charge Shot works great for her. In Metroid the beam is everything in most situations and that's reflected here. It is what her suit is built around and even in Smash most other attacks build off of it, missiles and explosions also comes from the cannon and other moves like DAir also highlight that. It should be such a multipurpose centralizing things because that's what it is in Metroid.

Imagine if you could store the full charge on any Smash Attack you wanted and unleash it at your discretion. That's Samus' Charge Shot in a nutshell (except it's also a projectile that has infinite range~)

The two best designed specials in the game are Pac-Man neutral b and down b. They are extremely strong specials but have a very high skill ceiling and allow for extremely creative and smart options

You talked about it a decent amount in your characters best move video but id definitely think dedede's neutral b is a worthy move to talk about since its fundermental to his entire game plan through landing mix ups which is especially good with his multiple jumps, an anti projectile tool on one of the slowest overall characters in the game thats on a super heavyweight and manipulates his gordo which is the most defining move in his kit

Wasn't sure what this vid would be like! Did not predict any of your picks. Great video, always love fighting game talk 👍

For me ivys vinewhip is my favorite move in the game. So multi faceted. Kill move, recovery tool, jump call out, platform coverage, get off me tool at ledge, can hit through the stage, can be canceled when grabbing ledge. Also stays true to the essence of the character.

As a sword fighter main, I still have no idea why they gave him so many zoning tools

Quick Draw feels like having a 20 in Blackjack and saying "Hit me." This probably doesn't make much sense, but it felt accurate to me.

11:46 never have I thought an extremely long, awkward pause would be what makes me laugh but here we are

Imo Corrin’s pin is one of the best representations of their character’s origins and playstyle in the game, along with her entire moveset in a way. Pin in Smash Ultimate is a move that grants Corrin a multitude of choices: to pin or not to pin, and then to lunge forward, backwards, jump, or drop the pin. You can use the pin to catch an enemy and hit them with the kick, or you could let them drop and initiate a tech chase using your massive aerials. Or, you could use the tip of the pin to get an early kill, even off the edge. Corrin’s origins are all about them making massive, life-altering choices and sticking with them, and pin represents those choices incredibly well.

I would love a part 2 of this!

You have the best intro on KZread. It is literally perfect

As a Mii Swordfighter player, I genuinely never considered using Shuriken of Light but after seeing people using it and testing it for myself, I've come to love the move. It feels like I'm playing Falco. It makes Power Thrust much better, but it isn't absolutely necessary. I personally like Chakram, Shuriken, the spacies recovery clone, and Reversal Slash. I don't think this is the meta set, but I really like using it, especially against other zoners. Shuriken pressures opponent to get close, multi-hit Chakram punishes getting too close, combo into up-b when enemy is in Chakram for more damage or smash attack to kill. But the Power Thrust and Quick Draw kit is also really good if not better in most cases, but not invalidatingly so. It's like Shuriken opened up the use of multiple effective kits, something which Brawler and Gunner have more of over Swordfighter imo. And that isn't something to undervalue whatsoever.

Honestly Rest is a move I wish Jigglypuff didn't have, as a Jigglypuff main. The mere existence of this move justifies so many weaknesses for Jigglypuff, and whenever you try to talk about the problems with Jigglypuff, someone will always, without fail, come along and say "but Rest though" It's also basically the reason she can't have a combo throw.

@channellastname3527

Жыл бұрын

but Rest though

Nice video, thank you! I could see a part 2 doing very well

To add to your Flame Choke section - unsurprisingly for the one special move (sort of) de-cloned it feels more tailored for Ganon's needs. It's a burst movement option, which a slow character naturally likes, but unlike dash attack and Wizard's Foot it can be performed in the air horizontally so it gives him much-needed platform coverage, landing mixups, and even an OOS option against ranged pokes (using macro specials). The fact that it's a horizontal burst movement command grab in particular allows him to capitalise on how his poking tools can force his opponents to shield in neutral (compared to more horizontally-stubby grabs like his dash grab and Dark Dive). A understated strength of the tech/roll chases he gets off Flame Choke is that it works at any percent and is always initiated point-blank to himself. Ganon is a character whose slow movement and strong moves limit his combo potential (especially past mid-percent), and so having a move that can set up for high-damage followups at any percentage is a real boon to his advantage state. While it does suck that the tech chases are *another* aspect of his advantage state that depend on him reading his opponents' options, I do love the surprising complexity that can go into it - what sort of tech habits does your opponent have? How far do their character's tech rolls go? Where are you on the stage, and how does that affect your reward potential and your opponent's choices? Are you in Wizfoot ledge-cancel range? Is your opponent at the right percentage to get some juicy late-hit dash attack or down air kill confirms? THEN throw in the fact that *aerial* flame choke *can't* be teched but also puts Ganon at a frame-8 disadvantage and it just gets deeper. Flame Choke is let down by strangely bitter balance decisions by the developers. The fact it puts Ganon into freefall in one you already mentioned. I could understand why at the start of Ultimate they left it at that as Ganon was considered mid-tier at the time *and* they had re-introduced directional airdodges, but it should have been clear to the devs after a couple years from Elite Smash data and Japanese tournaments (that we know they watch) that directional airdodges simply were not enough. It gets even more bizarre when you consider that (a) the developers nerfed ganoncide to the ground and (b) allowed Incineroar to act out of his horizontal burst movement command grab. I would also like to mention that the 16-frame startup does also hurt as it makes it less effective as a whiff-punish tool and also makes it more reactable at mid-range, somewhat defeating the idea of flame choke as mixup after conditioning shield.

The editing on this video is so crisp ❤‍🔥

Man I would love to see a version of this with every platform fighter, maybe on mockrocktalk? I'd just like to hear more of your thoughts on the rivals of aether cast, really. That game has some of the best designed specials in all of fighting games.

Jump Monado art should give Shulk an extra jump

As a corrin main I LOVE pin and chomp they are so unique in how they work

Dedede's gordos are a great one too! It's a punishing, hard-hitting projectile that is basically the central component of Dedede's kit to play around. The way it can be bounced back and forth, the sheer variety of ways it can be bounced around, its interactivity with Dedede's inhale, and the wide array of fun trapping scenarios you can create with it makes it a very cool special move in my book.

I feel like MockRock eating in his kitchen is one of the rarest things I’ve ever seen on this channel. And it’s also something I’ve never expected to see XD

So how about a MockRockTalk vid where you talk about the moves that didn't make it here? Would be cool.

Wario Bike is definitely one of the greatest moves in Smash history. It does SO much, but it never feels unfair. It's a burst option with extremely light armor and 5 different attacks (just driving straight, popping a wheelie, slamming the wheelie down for very early kills, doing a turn which has high knockback at the ledge, and finally jumping off the bike and letting it ghost ride as a projectile with light knockback that often knocks people down). It's a recovery tool that let's you recover from deep off stage and angle it slightly to avoid being hit off of it, but it's balanced by the fact that it has to be available for you to use it. It's an anti-zoning tool you can leave in the middle of the stage to block projectiles like Samus' beam and Diddy's banana. Leaving it on the stage also extends the length of hitboxes, which has a variety of uses. It's a something you can break and eat, or eat raw, to charge up the waft. It's something you can throw in 4 different ways to have different uses. Up for the strongest hitbox, but only flying up, soft throw forward for the longest lasting arced projectile that's amazing for ledge trapping, strong forward for a longer distance, but more horizontal throw that hits the ground faster, and down to use as a fake out since it has low startup and low end lag. There is just SO much to this move, but no one sees it as Wario's most powerful move because it does a lot of things, but never anything broken. It has a lot of potential downsides, including opponents being able to throw it back at you. The devs deserve a huge round of applause for this one.

I LOVE CAN! Duck Hunt is cool and Can is 90% of why.

@SSM24_

Жыл бұрын

Can is SUCH a cool move. I don't even play the character (although I do want to someday) and yet it's still one of my favorite moves in the game. Controllable projectiles almost always allow for a ton of really creative setups and mindgames. I also love how it's even fun when you're the opponent - being able to hit it to reverse its direction adds a lot of interactivity and makes it feel less oppressive than other zoning tools, without making it ineffective by any means.

Love seeing my main and one of my pocket characters here! Incin and Terry moment LOL

Making ganondorf's flame choke have him die first and being able to be mashed out of is one of the changes I hate the most. One or the other would be okay but not both

Captain falcon's Raptor Boost is well designed . It is a stylish combo starter (with many follow ups especially if not teched when landing on a platform above) and a stylish game ender . It has some armor on the important part and is medium risk/high reward and if used in edge guard high risk but high reward since it is one of the strongest spikes in the game .

I unironically think Falcon Punch is super well designed. Falcon’s entire kit is full of fast crazy combo tools. But Falcon Punch feels like a showboat. Like sure landing a knee is more optimal, but if you get a kill with Falcon Punch you become a legend

Can't wait to see K.O. Punch, Homing Attack and Spindash here!

ONE MORE THING about Revenge that's important to mention: if Incineroar gets grabbed while powered up, he loses revenge! this gives the opponent a counter-play option and balances out what would otherwise be an overpowered offensive move. @MockRock

@MrMockRock

Жыл бұрын

I brought this up in the video, the example footage shows Young Link grabbing him

I think Rest could have its issue of faithfulness fixed by simply having Jigglypuff heal over time while she's sleeping. Something like 5 to 8% would be fair I think, as landing a good rest confirm should be rewarded and with how light Jigglypuff is that bit of % will only keep her alive for one more hit if she's lucky.

Diddy barrels. Diddy has both one of the best recoveries in the game, as well as one of the most easily gimpable if you aren't good at using his recovery tools. Barrels reward skill when navigating off stage to get back, but gravely punish you it you use them wrong. The same can be said for their attack on the stage. The explosion not only does damage to Diddy, but its kill power is more in line with something like landing a smash attack than the obscene kill power some other major tradeoff specials grant the user. On top of all of that, it's absurdly laggy, so if you shield it, you get an almost guaranteed punish on Diddy. He can also SD if he hits the stage at the wrong angle because he goes into an inescapable freefall until he lands after exploding (so this includes landing on top of the stage too close to the ledge because he pops up and off the side and can't grab ledge during it). It's a LITTLE cheesey online where it's harder to react to, but the fact that it's by far Diddy's strongest "kill" option while being as wildly inconsistent and dangerous as it is I think makes it balanced, because you almost never want to use it against good players who will punish it. The move also has a ton of creative uses for releasing the barrels. Someone spamming projectiles at you? Charge Barrels in place and let them hit you so you let loose a hard to control projectile. There are also ways to gimp people off stage by stage spiking them with the explosion after getting hit while charging by a recovery with a hitbox. EXTREMELY high risk and difficult to get right, but that's what makes it cool. Almost everything about the move, from recovery to offense, is high risk mayhem, which is perfect for a monkey in a jetpack. And not to mention the jetpack already being a perfect callback to DK64. I think it checks every box.

My favorite special is probably Pac-Man's items. While some are better than others, the creativity you can have by changing the speed and tractories of a few items makes him a lot of fun to play.

Completely biased with my main, but Shulk's Monado Arts absolutely meets the criteria of being surprisingly fine-tuned despite a potentially game-breaking concept. It's pretty clear that Shulk's moves have been balanced around it (Down-throw almost always has a followup in Buster Art; and Shulk has an okay amount of kill options normally, but gets multiple new ones online around 90% when in Smash). It's been heavily reworked since Smash 4, and the changes ultimately made a more dynamic, but also more volatile, character. Decisions for which Art to utilize help differentiate every competent player (each professional Shulk main has their own usage habits), and the input for the mechanic implements what I feel is a healthy skill floor and skill ceiling. Shield Art in particular can only be optimally used if you have a) excellent reaction times and b) the game recognition to realize what the early frames of a multihit killmove / kill confirm are, rewarding game awareness and input skill. Each art has counterplay, so they never really become instant win buttons. Easily among the most complex moves in the game (probably the single most complex?), and it's genuinely impressive how well it comes together. When the inevitable "worst designed moves" video comes out by fan request, you must mention Minecart. The lack of visual indication for when the hitbox becomes a grabbox feels like a major oversight. And the cart's ability to carry you offstage, setting up for an offstage spike, creates a very imbalanced risk/reward dynamic, given that this is a projectile move (sort of) that can be initiated relatively safely. Nor does the gold bar powerup mechanic feel like a meaningful resource management decision--you get enough minecarts out of a single bar it in effect discourages crafting golden weapons.

Woooo new mock rock video baybeeee!!!

I think ICs' blizzard is pretty neat. It's what enables a lot of their unique setups, unblockables and ledge pressure but isn't overcentralising, they have a decent amount of setups that don't rely on it. The ways it interacts with Nana's position and whether or not she is desynced give it a lot of depth but there usually is a pretty straightforward answer if you see it coming. The freeze effect is also pretty well designed, it means you can't really do braindead desync blizzard -> smash attack confirms at kill percent and instead have to punish the ice block, which requires further setups.

Hey mock rock I’ve got a funny tier list idea for you, what if you ranked all the star KO’s?? My favorites are squirtle, young link and Roy their screams are hilarious 😂😂

Awesome Video!

The pause at 11:47 😂

I hate that the little pause left after saying the developers were “playing with fire” with Incineroar’s Revenge made me laugh

Finally after a long wait 🎉

Idea: Before the launch day of the next Smash game, release a tier list on how well-designed the whole cast is.

King k rools crown toss is so much fun while being fairly balanced, leading to combos, and if you don't do it right your opponent can use the crown. So much fun.

"The developers were playing with fire here." **LETS THAT SINK IN.**

missed opportunity by the incineroar player at 14:31 he could've turned around to get hit by the stronger back slash meaning more power afterwards

I like Sephiroth's neutral special. The move defines Sephiroth and is really fun to use in my opinion. It's also a great reference to Final Fantasy VII.

Ayy let’s go I’ve been waiting 10 years for this (estimation)

I find myself consistently nodding in agreement with your assessments of Ultimate's meta. Well-described points with interesting evidence and unbiased delivery. I hope Smash 6 will innovate within your vision of the game!

11:45 The pause on that. 😂

I'd luv to see a video talking about the problem with Mashing in smash, or a video talking about recoveries, to me i feel that recoveries are the most poorly designed part of smash as there is smingly no consistency or logic behind why one character can do this or why one character can do that or why so and so goes into freefall and why this guy doesn't especially when amplified with something like edgeguarding where it makes to some characters just get cheesed which just isn't fun

Can't wait for warlock punch to be on the next list

i actually love how the design of alolan whip. 3 versions for if you hit the second input, miss it, or pefectly input it. and the reward for perfect input plays super well into his kit. It sends the foe behind incin and at low percentages can confirm into back air

@mipho5899

Жыл бұрын

The main problem I have with it is how much it once against wastes a possible Pokemon reference. There is so much but then decided with the most gimmick of gimmick wrestling moves that has nothing to do with Pokemon. It's also a command grab and I hate this kind of move because it rewards people for spamming it online because you can't react to them in time there. Also the fact they threw the word Alolan in it is completely unnecessary. It at best references the Battle Royale but there is no wrestling. Just call it Lariat, which it is and already referenced in it's neutral special darkest lariat, which is an actual Pokemon move. So they put two similar moves in one character and redesigned one... Yeah, I really hate this move.

@Endershock1678

Жыл бұрын

I like it, but it feels a bit centralizing. I see Skyjay using it at top level and would prefer it be worse in exchange for a slightly better kit overall.

So, contenders for the opposite anyone? You know I have to throw the unnecessarily cheesy Splat Roller under the bus for that one. NO ONE, not even the ones who have to use it, likes this thing. It should just knock opponents into the air and kill at high percent, the bury adds nothing but negatives. Ofc Sonic should be in the video as well, Waft promotes camping so that’s a contender too, and some of the most mishandled projectiles would be there as well.

@gameboyn64

Жыл бұрын

Zelda side b. One of the worst designed moves in the game.

@Jackaljkljkl

Жыл бұрын

Corrin Neutral B is utter pony (unless you hit a random bite).

msfs gale stab is one of my fave moves in the game its just perfect

I'm reluctant to say it's one of the best designed moves since it can be obnoxious to deal with, but I find Sephiroth's Shadow Flare (yes, I know my name checks out lol) to be a very interesting move that really compliments the more psychological aspects of his kit. The ticking time bomb nature of it forces opponents to quickly decide in which manner they want to approach it's inevitable detonation. Whether they choose aggression in a hastened (if not panicked) attempt to put Sephiroth into disadvantage giving them room to shield it safely or act more defensively potentially giving up stage control to make it harder for Sephiroth to turn it into a combo/kill confirm, whichever route they choose not only gives Sephiroth the opportunity to use their strategy against them (including punishing the end lag of reflectors etc.) but also provides him with more data on the style in which his opponent approaches the game itself. Mega Man's Crash Bomber is similar but the significantly lower duration and ability to use the bomb against him diminishes how effectively it can be used in the same way as Shadow Flare.

2:17 MockRock with a beard. That's the comment.