Pin my comment

@ZestyJesus

2 жыл бұрын

ask and you shall receive

@Nestor_Sandoval

2 жыл бұрын

@@ZestyJesus he never said please 🥺

@puddle1296

2 жыл бұрын

did you just shit your pants?

@xxbeastmaster1103

2 жыл бұрын

@@ZestyJesus 1:36 Sauce?

@stratacat

2 жыл бұрын

Holy shit penny been a good time, is your discord still a acive

"to make shotguns behave like shotguns" _meanwhile shotguns IRL_ fuckin' leathal from what is considered "far" in this video

@joanaguayoplanell4912

2 жыл бұрын

If they want to see what happens if shotguns and other weapons are realistic, they should try the 2005 Battlefront game. Quick recap on the results: every hitscan weapon instakills everybody or leaves them a hair away from death at any range, including sniper bodyshots, and every explosive wipes out everybody in the vicinity. And it is fun in terms of the sheer chaos that it ensues, especially with the dumb AI, but complete bullshit in terms of balanced gameplay.

@sirreginaldfishingtonxvii6149

2 жыл бұрын

Course' it's not realistic, but it's certainly more so. Honestly I think I'd feel weird if my shotgun fired some kind of weird perfect square shape every time I used it.

@thewindwakinghero7423

2 жыл бұрын

@Flyin' Steve we don't talk about that game here.

@justanotherchannelwithauno7580

2 жыл бұрын

Sometimes you gotta sacrifice realism for fun sometimes. It balances it. Removing bullet doesn't help neither.

@deadpunisher4584

2 жыл бұрын

@@sirreginaldfishingtonxvii6149 That's so Damm arbitrary then, if you want to be realistic, then make it so it benefits the game. And realism into shotguns that cannot even reload correctly like irl, really?.

Even as an engineer main i'm terrified by the idea of a Frontier Justice Crit without spread

@TakadoGaming

2 жыл бұрын

Because of spread, you can randomly land a super tight spread at long range, with the crit (and therefor no damage falloff). If anything, the spread makes shotgun crits range from chip damage to sniper rifle.

@nicest_tf2_player

8 ай бұрын

good thing it has spread no matter what then?

I’d actually like a long-barrel shotgun that has a tighter spread that deals more damage at range but less damage overall. Because that’d just be awesome to sneeze at people from medium range and scare them with a shotgun.

@trackking9885

2 жыл бұрын

So basically you want a shortstop for all classes ?

@mark-jf5ik

2 жыл бұрын

@@trackking9885 sure

@mark-jf5ik

2 жыл бұрын

totally what he meant

@antisimptrooper4635

2 жыл бұрын

A slug shotgun?

@FRAUD--

2 жыл бұрын

That's just the TFC shotgun

I'm so glad the shotguns in tf2 feel like shotguns irl. Tf2 is known for it's realistic features like rocket jumping, mediguns, teleporters, etc...

@MorNloR

2 жыл бұрын

yeah oh and don't forget trimping and sticky jumping mediguns laser guns ect

@frixzanub2632

2 жыл бұрын

Oh yea and also fixing and making a building with only a wrench!

@HuneeBruh

2 жыл бұрын

And watches the size of your hand making you completely invisible, it’s crazy how far real life science has come

@theonlyone3532

2 жыл бұрын

exactly, so bullets should be consistent. Real life buck shot is a mess.

@TheJosiahTurner

Жыл бұрын

shotguns irl? a real shotgun would kill someone from tf2's max falloff range

Love him or hate him, you gotta admit Zesty’s got some top-notch editing.

@Have_some_plasma

2 жыл бұрын

Why hate him though? He presents points very well, got great editing skills and his *angery* is fun to watch. Edit: yeah alright alright, I get it.

@BonnCanlasGaming45

2 жыл бұрын

@@Have_some_plasma go to his twitter and pinned tweet, i don't hate him in any way tho Edit: The tweet longer is no longer the pinned tweet, its a foam cock now.

@TheBoghopper2

2 жыл бұрын

@@Have_some_plasma a foam cock?

@okankorad57

2 жыл бұрын

For sure, i almost never agree with him but always show up for the top notch videos. Just quality content

@Have_some_plasma

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheBoghopper2 a foam cock? Waitwhatthefuckman

I love the detail of Pyro not being given a dialogue box in the introduction.

@TylerYoshi

2 жыл бұрын

Pyro DID get one though. It just didn't have words in it.

@echolocation.

2 жыл бұрын

Get back to work Dr bright and don't mind that instead of running tests on SCP-1786 I'm watching KZread

@gemstonegynoid7475

2 жыл бұрын

🔥

@Magnet_Chaos

2 жыл бұрын

@@TylerYoshi If a dialogue box has no dialogue. Shouldn't it be called just a box?

It still baffles me the community's ability to make 20 minute, well edited videos about random mechanics that haven't been updated for years

@vivelespatat2670

Жыл бұрын

Content drought.

@realperson5575

Жыл бұрын

tf2 goyslop

"Do I like random crits? Only when they benefit me" Couldn't've said it better myself

The knocking at 1:18 was so realistic that I stopped to look over at my front door thinking someone was there

@Bushman06

2 жыл бұрын

ik wtf

@delcaprascalar1860

2 жыл бұрын

@@Bushman06 same i live on a second floor and i have a door on my left behind me and said door leads to a balcony and i was like wtf!? plus it's 11 pm

@scriblestingray5713

2 жыл бұрын

i got legitamently scared that someone was somehow breaking into the second story window of my building.

@sanderkoidu4271

2 жыл бұрын

I almost sh@t myself

@DrunkedOwly

2 жыл бұрын

Where I am my left is a wall, so no much problem there

Zesty really spent like 40 mins on a discord stream just to make a tree of life that was flashed for like 10 frames

@arture.7174

2 жыл бұрын

* laughs in clipart *

@kannatheweeb8836

2 жыл бұрын

Thats wicked

@Yhvhfollower

2 жыл бұрын

@@kannatheweeb8836 wicked!

@boki2597

2 жыл бұрын

thats wicked

@NichisCrapPosts

2 жыл бұрын

thats wicked!

I've always felt more consistent with the Panic Attack than any other shotgun, but you know what that's probably more because of the 15 pellets than the fixed spread.

@blockwearingman

2 жыл бұрын

same😂😂

@Rogeryoo

2 жыл бұрын

The panic attack is hide as hell, you're bound to hit quite a few pellets even if your crosshair isn't on top of someone.

@tommygun4552

Жыл бұрын

Even though you deal less damage at mid range with it it is much more consistent, with the shotgun? You might deal more damage but mostly lower damage due to the random bullet spread, the "fixed spread" allows the Panic Attack to be much consistent even though you are going to expect having to deal only low damage

@xdude228

Жыл бұрын

@@Rogeryoo Especially since the spread is horizontally wide instead of vertically, yet still contains the same amount of bullets. So you can completely miss at mid-range, but if your crosshair got close enough and you're on the right level horizontally, you still do the same amount of damage as if you had hit.

I feel like most people really only started to notice/care more about the random bullet spread because of the change made to the panic attack making it have a fixed spread at all times

What i like about your chanel are your points of view and seeing the methods you use to explain them, they are so refreshing for this community!

@007turtle1239

2 жыл бұрын

To me it comes off as kind of pretentious when he just explains a bell curve for little to no reason when his argument hinges entirely on taking an average.

@beefsandvvich

2 жыл бұрын

@@007turtle1239 a little refresher never hurt anyone

@007turtle1239

2 жыл бұрын

@@beefsandvvich the explanation of a bell curve does nothing to further his argument.

@Cast-Carnival

2 жыл бұрын

@@007turtle1239 dude. it was for a short amount of time he mentioned it. he didn't stay on that topic for a full minute. A brief explanation. Also, we get it, you have a short attention span and you don't like it when the path deviates a little to explain a something kinda cool, and something we kinda forgot about in high school.

@007turtle1239

2 жыл бұрын

@@Cast-Carnival Completely irrelevant to what I said. Pure cope.

I think you should’ve also done tests with aiming off to the side to see how it effects near-miss shots

@JustinWHY-zz7gz

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly, zesty forgot that shotguns are shotguns and not sniper rifles, and that you are more likely to use the shotgun at mid to close range which makes small movements the difference between getting shot or not. You dont sit in a corner of the map and carefully and precisely aim on an enemy like a sniper. If i had a nickel for the amount of pellets didnt connect and got me killed leaving the enemy with less than 10 hp because of random bullshit spread, my bank account could rival Jeff Bezos'.

@Apsolon

2 жыл бұрын

@@JustinWHY-zz7gz Make it have no bloom will turn it into a pseudo sniper though. Also that just sound like your aim is the problem because it is hit scan, there is no bullet travel times.

@JustinWHY-zz7gz

2 жыл бұрын

@@Apsolon "make it have no bloom will turn it into a pseudo sniper though" Bro are you high? The only pellets that hit where your crosshair lands are 2 out of the 10 that you fire, the other 8 are spread apart. No bloom bullet spread shotgun shots have a square pattern and the more far away your shot is the more spread apart the pellets are, they dont just stay in one fixed small pattern from short range all the way from long range. Also when did i mention anything about bullet travel time

@Apsolon

2 жыл бұрын

@@JustinWHY-zz7gz The reason I said that is because now you can realistic hit peoples at farther range since the spread are fixed while RBS can technically do the same thing but they are less likely to happened than fixed, making it fixed technically also increase the effective range of the shotgun. While it doesn't deal significant dmg, it will affect how they receive heal or at least support your team more consistently. About bullet travel times, because you said your bullet didn't connect, if you aim right, your bullet will always connect plus hit scan so if you miss that is on you and remember this the center shot is always 100% accurate and it hit right on cross hair.

@JustinWHY-zz7gz

2 жыл бұрын

@@Apsolon Ok, 1: bloom shotguns can also hit people at long range because the pellet on your crosshair is always 100% accurate, and about the healing per second affected by chip damage can be done by anything, you can use a pistol to do 8 damage instead of 3 from longer range and can if you got the timing right you can hit 100% of your shots if you wait for the pistols spread to reset back to 100% accurate, and you dont seem to call the pistol a pseudo sniper so whats your point. 2: Bloom shotguns have horrible spread patterns, sometimes they're horizontal and somtimes they're vertical, which means that if my crosshair isnt dead center and i shoot a vertical pattern i missed someone with low enough hp to be killed with 2 to 3 pellets if the pattern was just a little more to the right or left, which makes it extremely infuriating. Theres literally no reason to keep bloom spread in the game, because with it off makes the game more consistent and makes every death feel like my own fault instead of the game screwing me over, same with random crits. Also i love how all the casual players say that removing bloom and random shits will make the game more competitive without even elaborating on why that is. Removing bloom and random crits will make the game more enjoyable and balanced. Casuals tend to think that RNG means causal fun when that obviously isnt the case.

The only bullet spread that really bothers me is the revolver, and even that makes sense because they're meant to be a mid-range last resort that uses a few deliberate shots instead of mag-dumping every time

@LL-kv1jk

Жыл бұрын

As well as finishing a kill with a single bullet. Which I think is usually 100 percent accurate on the first shot anyway.

Reading between the lines, what I think RBS opponents are bothered by is the inability to instantly determine who's to blame for a low-damage shot, their skill or other factors. This is of course admirable.

@Jiub_SN

7 ай бұрын

Not at all, those type of players use it as an excuse for when they're missing shots, happened in csgo for a while too but in that game it actually mattered

@rainbowfrog1239

7 ай бұрын

I feel like this. I am far from an expert at this game and always want to improve. There have been countless times where I feel like I'm hitting a good shot, but I deal damage in the low 20s. This may be due to poor aim, but I don't know for sure. This could just be random bullet spread telling me to go fuck myself. It makes it hard to tell if I missed that shot due to lack of skill, or just that 1 in 20 or whatever chance that the bullets just avoid my target. It's small, but everything counts when you're trying to get better.

The thing with random bullet spread is that almost all casual players aren't bothered by it being off but some more competitive players are bothered by it being on, so it might as well be off. This is opposed to crits which a lot of people prefer on and a lot of people prefer off. Whether turning RBS off will cause a Vietnam style domino effect giving the design of every TF2 mechanic to comp players is unironically a concern of mine, I don't want comp players to be in control of casual TF2 but I also don't give a shit about RBS being on or off, good video by the way.

@chasekellow3835

2 жыл бұрын

Hate this style of reasoning, just because you claim casual players aren’t bothered by it doesn’t mean casual players won’t notice. I feel like it should come down to the competitive players more tbh, as they should learn to improve their skill to the point where rbs doesn’t matter

@P-Bean

2 жыл бұрын

@@chasekellow3835 ​I disagree, I still believe almost all casual players won't be bothered, even if they notice. The fact is it just doesn't change much and I doubt many people would be bothered by it's removal. Though you're right I don't actually know that, just seems highly probable given how insignificant it is and the mindset of the average casual player. Also RBS will always matter no matter the skill level of the player because of the nature of random chance, this is proven by the video which has a perfectly controlled test setting, there's no way to "git so gud" so that you control how the bullets of your shotgun come out the barrel. Actually the better you are the MORE RBS will effect your shots because the less your aim plays a factor in missing your shots the more RBS will, even if the plays the same amount it means more because other factors are lessened. I don't even care if RBS is on or off, but saying players should get gud enough to control random chance is dumb.

@redshift0433

2 жыл бұрын

Honestly the thing i dont like about it is that the one or two people working on TF2 might make changes like this rather then bug fixes because they believe its what the community wants

@amienabled6665

2 жыл бұрын

Great minds think alike

@P-Bean

2 жыл бұрын

@@redshift0433 I agree with this, to be honest RBS on or off in casual means nothing when casual is filled to the brim with bots that haven't even been addressed by valve yet.

8:14 this is the only problem stationary targets are good for data, but think about every time your enemy walks to your left and your bullets go right and then there's the simple side of "I'm pissed because I got random crit killed and they didn't earn that kill" well think about the uncertainty where you randomly get dealt more damage because all the pellets squeezed over you not as bad as a random crit, but expecting 27 damage and then taking 80 isn't predictable

@getsuga2251

2 жыл бұрын

Assuming your crosshair is centred on the target, a stationary target or a moving target shouldn't make a difference because tf2's bullet based weapons are hitscan. For a moving target the main factors influencing whether your bullets hit or miss would be your aim, latency, angle etc. Stuff that Zesty already covered

@kingpiplup5258

2 жыл бұрын

@@getsuga2251 yeah, it’s like running in the rain. Only if the rain was lasers. Then just don’t walk into the rain. Problem solved: get better.

@puddin555

2 жыл бұрын

@@getsuga2251 Zesty said himself that most of these factors can be controlled *by the player*

@getsuga2251

2 жыл бұрын

@@puddin555 exactly

@DanielFerreira-ez8qd

2 жыл бұрын

@@getsuga2251 doesn't mean it's not another issue. saying it's not bad because there are other issues that also affect aim doesn't suddenly make it fine

Just one thing: The experiment at hand assumes that the player has perfect aim, at precisely center mass. Random bullet spread most often comes into play not with meatshots, but rather when it comes to finishing off an opponent. If your crosshair is halfway on top of your target, for instance, there’s a large chance that you WON’T get the necessary damage to finish off a target at low health. While I agree that random bullet spread is insignificant within the context of individual fights, the amount of people that have been subtly fucked over by them is probably much larger than we would expect. (Posting this solely to promote discussion, so no salt pls)

@pump9486

2 жыл бұрын

Get better aim???????

@theanOnyOmus

2 жыл бұрын

I respect your opinion on the experiment but, that’s kind of the whole thing with it being a semi-scientific experiment the variable at Play was the DPS of shotguns with bullet spread enabled the part of the experiment the changes (I don’t remember the exact terminology at moment)was the range. so having the engineer staying completely still was just a constant in the experiment, because if you change more than one variable then you don’t know which is causing the change in your data it might be that he’s moving it might be the random bullets spread or it might be the range end at that point it would no longer be a accurate presentation of the data. Along with that the location of the crosser is variable mostly controlled by the player themselves, which cannot be accurately represented because well zesty is not every single player in TF2. And this comment is not made out of salt I’m just giving my two cents again for the sake of discussion.

@swordmanshane3083

2 жыл бұрын

The fact that you had to ask for "no salt pls" is kinda funny to me and something that makes too much sense to add 😅

@22burnsie

2 жыл бұрын

His study can only account for so many details. Inconsistent aim to get the maximum hit box contact is just a value that can’t be remade, and if it is somehow included, then that would skew the details and results. He just have to assume you’re going to hit close to center of mass with each shot

@Mutaburasaurus

2 жыл бұрын

But there's also a chance you'll deal more damage to a low-health target when you're crosshair is slightly off, right? I don't understand why people seem to think random bullet spread equals less damage done. Even with perfect aim, that won't be the case, (unless you have nine enemies standing in a square formation).

I really appreciated the use of statistics in your arguments and felt your analysis did the job, but I feel like a binomial distribution would have fit better here, especially when the close-range data is noticeably not normally distributed, but I can confirm through my own tinkering that it is very well-fit by a binomial distribution of the 9 random pellets

@boogiebot2279

Жыл бұрын

On top of this, the number of pellets that hit is a discrete variable, and since there's only 9 pellets for most shotguns which isn't a very large number, it makes little sense to approximate the normal distribution here. This is especially noticeable for the close range graph as a greater proportion of shots are more than 1 standard deviation away from the mean since the graph is so far to the right. I mean, the normal distribution can work here, it's just not the most appropriate option.

One problem with fixed bullet spread is that at certain ranges, aiming perfectly centered will consistently do LESS damage than aiming near the side (since aiming at the center will cause only the middle column of pellets to hit).

@DankDimensionMemes

2 жыл бұрын

While that might be true, still better overall.

@DanielFerreira-ez8qd

2 жыл бұрын

@@DankDimensionMemes better for you, kind of bullshit for who you're fighting against.

@DankDimensionMemes

2 жыл бұрын

@@DanielFerreira-ez8qd explain, fixed spread is better overall

@DanielFerreira-ez8qd

2 жыл бұрын

@@DankDimensionMemes My bad, I thought you were talking about random spread being better. Because dealing more damage than expected at a longer range could be bs for someone.

@DankDimensionMemes

2 жыл бұрын

@@DanielFerreira-ez8qd no worries

Random bullet spread has been an issue for a long time, but it HAS become a popular topic of discussion again when it has been more of a background topic compared to really busted things like the wrap assassin ball or the righteous bison being broken, etc. If I recall correctly, back in the Jerma and Ster_ days this was a popular topic of discussion back then too. But as other, more pressing balance problems came up, this issue faded to the background of discussions. Things being in a relatively good balance place with a reasonably active community of content creators compared to how things were between the early days and now, makes this sort of topic something that could be reasonably discussed again.

@ryanritchey3574

2 жыл бұрын

I like both Random Crits and RBS, just wish people would stop whining and just take them

@kenos2347

2 жыл бұрын

@@ryanritchey3574 RBS? sure it can stay, random crits though no.

@geoshark12

2 жыл бұрын

@@kenos2347 even though 90% of weapons can’t?

@lukeeatschips6324

2 жыл бұрын

What do we gain from these random elements? - Occasional dopamine hit for people who are already on a streak What do we lose by keeping them? -Some fights are won by rng (edit) -Skill and practice is invalidated What do we lose by removing them? - Nothing

@sirreginaldfishingtonxvii6149

2 жыл бұрын

@@lukeeatschips6324 I don't really think the difference in damage by bullet spread is big enough to say that "fights are won by RNG" nor that "skill and practice is invalidated." Random crits? Certainly. But random bullet spread? That's simply not true. Extreme hyperbole at best. If someone is blaming that for losing, then they're making up excuses.

Ironically, as someone who was more neutral on bullet spread, this vid actually helped convince me to support no random bullet spread? Damage wise the range is minuscule, but the consistency helps with long range chip damage, which is able to help deal with snipers. It’s not much, but the difference between one pellet and no pellet is the big deal in those situations, so you can get that flinch. The other arguments don’t really make me want to support random bullet spread either. To me, being able to work slightly more effectively than not at all at longer ranges feels more realistic, and the whole ‘competitive slippery slope’ doesn’t really mean much. The whole argument about there being other random factors just said to me that the feeling of variance would be there even without random bullet spread, so why bother keeping it in? Shotguns still wouldn’t be completely reliable, especially without the headshots CS:GO has.

@orlandoaguirre9084

2 ай бұрын

I'm actually surprised with this comment here. I had the same line of reasoning, but for staying neutral towards bullet spread and to stop caring about it, since it aint matter as you said. I don't know why support taking it out, but otherwise? I think your reasoning itself removed from what you support makes 110% sense.

the problem with having around 80% consistent bullet spread is that shotgun fights are resolved with 2~3 shots. This means that in every shotgun fight there is a fairly high chance of having an inconsistent shot, and that makes a difference (example: playing scout vs a soldier. You have a inconsistent shot and die)

@fantastikboom1094

23 күн бұрын

2-3 shots? Sounds like a close-range encounter, in which you're literally bound to hit. That means either you actually miss and should get better or hitreg isn't doing good.

Everyone is forgetting that we did remove a randomness mechanic from TF2, random *DAMAGE* spread. The game would deviate how much damage falloff would effect your weapon by up to 15% both ways. This underrated TF2uber has a great video on it. kzread.info/dash/bejne/eGVhw7ehitSah7g.html (Zesty I normally don’t care how much attention my comments get but I really think more people should be talking about this, I’d appreciate a pin)

@milliondollarmistake

2 жыл бұрын

oh yeah I mentioned random damage spread in my comment too, that shit sucked monkey ass getting one shot as scout by a huntsman BODY shot was dumb

@Breakaway-ic5gj

2 жыл бұрын

Man coding these random mechanics seems complex, why did Valve even add them in the first place ?

@ivrydice0954

2 жыл бұрын

@@Breakaway-ic5gj Random damage spread was bareable at launch. The unlocks they added started making it more annoying.

@war_muffin363

2 жыл бұрын

@@Breakaway-ic5gj ​ Coding in randomness isnt that difficult at all, in fact its extremely easy. Once you set up a random number generator (which most languages already provide), all you need to do is just add its output to the base stat, if its positive, it gets boosted, if negative, it gets reduced. This can be used to make damage fluctuate as OP mentioned, or in the case of bloom, the x and y positions of a pellet relative to the center. As for why they put them in, I don't know. In the case of Bloom, one of the points in Zesty's video was Bloom makes a shotgun's bullet spread more realistic to the behavior of an actual shotgun. For gameplay, that means a shotgun's damage output is inconsistent at long to medium range, which encourages using the weapon at short range where bloom is insignificant.

@spiderjerusalem8505

2 жыл бұрын

Oh yea, that was the only good random mechanic, I'd rather keep it than spread or crits

I find myself convinced by this video. I am adamantly against random critical hits, especially after Dane's video a few years ago. I'm not as sure about spread as I am about crits, but I think I can go either way now. If I had to guess, I'd say even the people peddling FBS don't much know how little it does (including the youtubers that brought it up in the first place). If anything, I appreciate the tone of this video, as one that does not seek to aggravate. I was worried you would start that, especially after all of the undue hate, but it seems I am wrong.

@M.J44

2 жыл бұрын

I'm not surprised Dane came to the conclusion he did in that video, but he should have looked into what he was talking about more. Randon bullet spread, while in competitive makes sense entirely, does not NEARLY affect the game to the same degree as random crits lol. RBS is so much less likely to cause a "oh look I fkn died GOD DAMMIT--"

@Lone-Nep

2 жыл бұрын

Dane also said people would site "comp tf2" as a reason for people getting into tf2 by 2023 in the same video, is late 2021 now and while there is still time, am gonna say he is full of shit, random crits make the game more fun and for that reason alone they should stay, simple as.

@agentj3627

2 жыл бұрын

@@Lone-Nep More fun how, exactly? Because funny haha sudden death? It's an unfair frustrating mechanic even in a casual setting, simple as.

@mrcocoloco7200

2 жыл бұрын

@@Lone-Nep That is not fun at all. Is only fun for the person who gets the Crits.

@maxwellsterling

2 жыл бұрын

@@Lone-Nep Damn, I must have Alzheimer's or something, because I honest to God can't remember a single time I had fun getting instakilled by a splash damage class that clicked the ground one Tour de France away from me.

I never really thought about random spread until community servers started turning it off, but I love the shotgun and I have enjoyed being able to more easily judge things like the damage I can expect to get on follow up shots at a certain range and whether my shot was poorly aimed. I guess it's not so much about doing more or less damage as providing more useful feedback in a single shot, where with the random spread you might need a couple to get a feel for the situation you're in, a situation that might well have ended by that point. That being said I'm pretty average at the game, so maybe this is less of a factor to people with bigger brains haha.

1:18 it doesnt matter how many times i replay this i still think someones knocking on my door in real life every time

15:38 No, random crits exist to allow a pubstomper to pubstomp harder. Any other theory is complete cope.

@aceskeletonne7446

2 жыл бұрын

LoL no, it's based on recent damage done so the pubstomper who's doing a ton of damage will be far more likely to get crits

@maskofthedragon

2 жыл бұрын

@@aceskeletonne7446 Thank you for correcting me by... saying what I just said

I don't really care about random bullet spread either but this video really seemed like it came from a place of disdain for a certain portion of the community rather than on the merits of the mechanic itself. As you said yourself "[you] don't have a strong argument for keeping random bullet spread" with the only reasons given being that it makes shotguns feel more realistic and the slippery slope where TF2 will lose its identity if we keep removing core mechanics (a logical fallacy mind you). It was a very well put together video but you seem to have a very strong opinion about the mechanic despite admitting that you have no real basis for it which comes off vindictive towards competitive players, especially when they have valid concerns. With that being said, I do agree with your closing statement, simply get better because random bullet spread really isn't that much of an issue.

@pastalavista5784

2 жыл бұрын

im glad that this was pointed out by at least one comment. I don't really like this mentality that zesty is pushing that comp is the bane of tf2 and that tf2 comp players just want a "water down version of the game". I feel like its going in the opposite direction that tf2 needs, that "nothing matters its a casual game!!!" and how tf2 should not reward good players for playing well.

@PoneDtheGuy

2 жыл бұрын

My take away was that it probably shouldn't be as hot of a topic as it is, and yes that it is a hot topic only because certain people brought attention to it. I wholeheartedly believe nobody would even be thinking much of it today if more competitively focused players like Dane never brought it up. Shotguns with fixed spread in video games is the exception rather than the rule. Because rbs is a balancing mechanic rather than randomness for random sake like random crits.

@chasekellow3835

2 жыл бұрын

I mean he’s right though, meet your match was the worst update in tf2 and who was it catered to? Competitive players. Competitive players have rarely benefited the community and have harmed it numerous times. At least he keeps his opinions clear instead of presenting them as fact, like a lot of competitive players like to do

@pastalavista5784

2 жыл бұрын

@@chasekellow3835 I dont think there was a single comp tf2 player that was actually happy with the meet your match update. they were just as frustrated as anyone else. surprise but comp players arent actually trying to get the game killed. thats also ignoring how it was valve that made the update not comp players. comp players weren't asking for a broken matchmaking system. Everything that has gone wrong with tf2 in the past isnt to do with the community, but valve. cause again, valve is making the updates, not comp players.

@elmonke6154

2 жыл бұрын

Honestly this entire video is kinda just stupid. I don't understand how you can make the argument that it doesn't have an actually impact on the game, then say it's used for balancing by making shotgun damage worse at range.

For the TF2 shotguns to behave like actual shotguns, they would need double damage so it one shots you at close range

@zhemedic2639

2 жыл бұрын

And be fucking lethal across the map

@justafurrywithinternet317

Жыл бұрын

More like sextuple.

@coreycampbell7615

Жыл бұрын

I don't see why people seek realism in a game where you jump with rockets.

@pizzeria_mayhem8736

Жыл бұрын

I think he meant in terms of how the pellets behave and not in general

@HyperrealisticNoise1111

Жыл бұрын

But this is the sniper job

Yes, 15% of the time doing less damage isn’t a huge deal. However, it DOES change things unnecessarily. It has no positive

@BAMB00STER4EVER

2 жыл бұрын

Yea glossed over this point in the video

@glb0768

2 жыл бұрын

shooting a blank 15% the time is a lot tbh

@admg2005

2 жыл бұрын

it’s chip damage, and sometimes it can even do more damage

@ShomiNexus

2 жыл бұрын

Pretty sure the given positive was the 15% chance of doing *more* damage.

@Mutaburasaurus

2 жыл бұрын

@@glb0768 It's not equal to shooting a blank, though. You're just doing slightly more or slightly less damage. If you miss entirely because of random bullet spread, you're either too far away, or your aim is off. With bullet spread off, you would still only hit with one or two pellets, for 6-12 damage. The difference is tiny. Also, you often shoot a target several times, which should even the damage out even more. Dealing slightly less damage than the expected average, five shots in a row, would be very unlikely, for example.

In my experience of tf2, random bullet spread has noticeably led to exactly killed one person killed more than normal, by sending them flying off a cliff, but they probably would’ve died anyways Also, I find that random crits on normal weapons are just not fun even when I get them, but on melee weapons they’re actually really stupid and fun

@SkeletonGuts

2 жыл бұрын

That's pretty much my stand on random crits as well. Random crit rocket wiping out half the team isn't fun, but getting up close in the danger zone with random crit melee is fun in my eyes even if I get crit punched.

@sparkling925

2 жыл бұрын

i think its pretty fucking fun if i kill 3 people with a single crit rocket

@selfiestick1589

2 жыл бұрын

had never thought of that... random crits only on melee, that actually sounds nice

@nicholasdarrylh.9062

2 жыл бұрын

getting one-critted in melee is fun/acceptable for both sides in most applications except demoknights (glad those dont get random crits) and the ubersaw one-tap. as in, im fine with getting erased by the fist of steel heavy running around beating everyone up, but not the medic i snuck up on

@poopyjoe7435

2 жыл бұрын

@@nicholasdarrylh.9062 wouldnt removing random crits on the uber saw make it even more broken? since you could hit more people for ubercharge instead of 1 shotting them

I could take them or leave them, tbh. I Understand *why* people don’t like it, but I don’t see why so much. I’ve never had a kill stolen from me because of the random spread.

@ryanritchey3574

2 жыл бұрын

9,000 hours and I’ll say the same, I think it’s a bunch of whiny comp players

@liltimmywithagun601

2 жыл бұрын

@@ryanritchey3574 uncle dane be like

@ryanritchey3574

2 жыл бұрын

Lil timmy with a gun unlike Dane I like random crits

@qwertystrix6649

2 жыл бұрын

Play hitscan then

@KicksPregnantWomen

2 жыл бұрын

@@ryanritchey3574 you likely have but just havent noticed because its not really noticeable

The issue with this experiment is that it only applies to perfect center-of-mass shots. It fails to account for all of the other variables that can go into the decision-making behind a shotgun shot. For example, if you were to damage an opponent down to about 40 health, then you can make the decision to divert some of your mental energy away from perfectly aiming for center of mass, and instead focus some of your energy on juking/dodging. In this case, you're more likely to hit a grazing shot on the opponent's sides. Or, you can afford to retreat a bit and make some distance before making the killing blow. If you have fixed bullet spread, you can reasonably expect that at certain aiming points, you'd hit something like 54 or 63 damage, and so you can afford to go for these less-accurate shots in order to secure the kill (similar to going for a splash rocket on a wounded opponent instead of a direct shot as Soldier). You can develop the knowledge of how much damage certain aiming points would give, and use that to make informed decisions on how to aim. With random bullet spread, this decision-making is moot. You could go for a less accurate shot, and hit something like 36 damage to 72 damage, and it's completely out of your control. This applies even more to mid-range shots. It interferes with the development of skills such as damage number recognition and relevant decision-making based on those numbers, just like random crits. The effects aren't immediately obvious like crits, because there's very little way of knowing when random bullet spread came into effect or didn't come into effect, but it still applies, and it still negatively impacts the game, at least to SOME degree. If only 85% of shots fit within the "average", that's still 15% of shots that don't. 15% is a significant amount of shots. That's almost 1/6, which is funny when you consider a shotgun has 6 shots. At midrange this is even more ridiculous, considering only 68% of shots land in the std dev range. Using your conservative estimate of 70%, I can say that betting on a 70% chance of doing an expected amount of damage is just not reasonable, at all. If the average range of damage is 13, that could be considered significant. 13 damage is 10% of a light class's health. And all of this is only against a stationary target with perfect center-of-mass aiming. The variance would be even greater if you were to test different angles, different aiming positions, etc. Just because aiming perfectly gives you a "consistent" RANGE of damage 85% (or less) of the time, doesn't mean it's not significant in actual gameplay. I'm a numbers nerd, and I can see myself doing this sort of test too, but I would've absolutely tested way more variables than just distance. There's also potential issues with the way you rounded things, but it's not that important, because even with the numbers presented, these issues still apply. All of this, and there's still no real argument for why shotguns should have random spread to begin with. Should a shotgun be less effective at range? Yes. Should its effectiveness be random and unpredictable? Probably not. Even if you want to argue that it'd be more "realistic" or "reasonable", it still feels bad from a gameplay perspective and can hamper the development of skills. Firing at a wounded target at midrange the exact same way should not give variable results. I shouldn't sometimes hit a 50 and sometimes hit a 30 with identical shots on someone who has 40 health. If I aim properly, I should be rewarded for my knowledge of damage numbers and my skill of hitting the shot. Consistency is always a good thing when it comes to this sort of gameplay.

@TooFewSecrets

2 жыл бұрын

Zesty would outright come up with fake information if it helped him "shit on tryhards". He's not gonna argue in good faith - I think everyone who's played XCOM or any similar game knows having a 1/6 chance of failure is too damn high and he pretends like it's 1/60.

@M0D776

2 жыл бұрын

This just boils down to 1 phrase "Know when to pick your fights and when to flee", if you are relying on grazing shots to win, you might as well just flee and lure your enemy into a more advantageous position, if you're a Scout you can just go away faking an escape and return in a matter of seconds to catch your enemy off guard, if you're an Engineer you can "Flee" towards your Sentry so it can either scare them or just finish them off, if you're a Pyro your shotgun is a support weapon mostly to finish off your already flaming target, so if you're in a situation that doesn't seem good, just fake a retreat like with Scout and then just go for a closer shot, or just pull out your Flamethrower which is literally made for Close Encounters, and if you're a Heavy, your shotgun is a last resort weapon, mostly useful when you ran out of Minigun ammo and you have to retreat to an Ammo Pack or Dispenser, and if you're running a Fat Scout build, then just like the previous Scout example, fake a retreat and kill your enemy when they least expect it, overall fleeing is also an even better option if you're fleeing towards a stairway, as your hitbox can be harder to hit due to the perspective. In the example you gave on almost securing a kill, you have the enemy at 40 health, why would you start dodging at that point? Dodging is supposed to be the first thing you do, and after weakening your for you then put more pressure on them and go for the kill, specially if you're using a shotgun. Also, you're talking about mid and long range, which as explained in the video, it's outside of the effective range of the shotgun, so it's obviously going to be less effective, because you're not supposed to be using it at mid to long range, you're supposed to either get close to use it, or shoot some shots as a way to scare the enemy and then flee into a more advantageous position or even safety.

@soundrogue4472

2 жыл бұрын

@@TooFewSecrets That's not an argument against what the guy presented.

@ashtongiertz8728

2 ай бұрын

It does reward your skill. But memorization of damage numbers isn't a skill, so why should THAT be rewarded? True skill lies in overcoming obstacles that come your way, and reacting to sudden changes. If that extra health loss is a deciding factor, odds are you would have lost that encounter anyway what with Scout's ability to rapidly go from mid range to close range and the fact that his scattergun has 14.2% more damage ramp-up.

@--.--.--.--.--.--

2 ай бұрын

@@ashtongiertz8728 You're very late to the conversation, but. Recognizing and adjusting your play based on damage numbers IS a skill. You can't just claim it's not. It requires knowledge and experience. I think my original comment explains more than enough of how it can be a skill in practice, and how making it that random is not ideal.

a 15% chance that my shot will say nah dawg is really high and that really shouldn't be downplayed

A part that we don't explore as much is the person receiving more damage; is it fair for you to be killed by someone who isn't aiming at your center of mass simply because more random pellets ended up lining up with your hurtbox? I wouldn't say it necessarily rewards bad aim, but randomly taking more damage than average instead of less is a point to consider.

@jacehackworth6413

2 жыл бұрын

True, but its basically chip damage. Either you have enough health to fight more or escape and it probably made no difference, or you were so close to death something else would have probably killed you. And I don't know about other people but I have never died and thought "Damn random bullet spread!" Because there's no way for you to even tell.

@GiRR007

2 жыл бұрын

Well I mean if you are at a distance where that extra damage can kill you so easily I feel the shot gun deserves to be more useful in that close range.

@Nutty31313

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, because when I take a ton of damage at close range from a shotgun I don't think "damn, that was well aimed" I always think "he just got lucky!" Random bullet spread is not like random crits, it gets broadcast to the world that you got killed by a crit, you get a specific sound effect when you are hit with one and sometimes you can see the crit coming towards you. There is literally no indication of random bullet spread from the receiver's view point unless they take out a calculator and know the exact distance and orientation of the shot to calculate how much damage they should have taken.

@theeyeballthatcameoutofthe5268

2 жыл бұрын

thats how shotguns work

@nobleradical2158

2 жыл бұрын

@@Nutty31313 I think that too, but on some level I think that would be there no matter what, just like when I get noscoped by a sniper while rushing them with a bat

Based on current video comments, here's the major divide: A) Because TF2 is unrealistic and shouldn't go towards a more competitive playstyle, RBS is fine especially since the deviation of bullets is notable but not *negatively consistent, as the video points out. There's plenty of other factors that COULD play into why a bullet misses its target, so RBS can't always be proven to be the culprit. or B) Because TF2 is a PvP video game that demands hand-eye skill to perform well, the least amount of random mechanics should be implemented to allow a player to succeed on their own terms, not on the game's. There's plenty of other factors that COULD play into why a bullet misses it's target, so RBS shouldn't be added to the list. I think only certain weapons should have RBS, specifically Scout's arsenal, the SMG, and Minigun, and probably another example I could think of. Certain weapons that would be too powerful consistently hitting without some kind of balance factor is important. The Revolver, for instance, having RBS if you fire too fast is a perfectly implemented balancing tool, that forces Spies to gamble or play patiently. But the Shotgun, which is already designed in its spread to perform worse at range, getting the added randomness is an extra kick in the pants. Statistically, it makes little difference in the short-term, but the nagging feeling of randomness does build over time. But if the SMG had no randomness to it... Sniper could actually be a terrifying assault rifle class. The Medic's syringe guns don't need randomness. They are already weak, and the very slight spread *could* cause a well-planned retreat to go awry in a situation where he otherwise could have survived. The argument COULD be made that randomness COULD let all the needles hit a target who is very evasive anyways, but the likelihood is nearly impossible. And where the difference between 1 and 0 is death, the Blutsauger hitting an extra needle could absolutely save a medic's life. In short, I surmise that the video is right that if a weapon DID have a randomness factor, it should only be applied to weapons that should not be allowed to succeed on average at far ranges. A random bullet spread mechanic forces Scouts closer, which balances the class as a whole because of his low health pool. In a video game where every single point of health matters, I wager it's not a justifiable argument for every weapon. If it's already impeded by distance, that should be the trade off by default, unless another factor would apply.

@bucket6988

2 жыл бұрын

In agreement here, however just a note from a Heavy main that used to play the game competitively, RBS seems to aid heavy more than it hurts him, I find I land more shots with it on than off as the extra variables described in the video make having a consistent bullet spread on something with a cone of rapid firing hitscan kind of pointless and the random chance that more bullets are in the center of your shot is more likely to happen on HWG than static bullet spread giving the heavy an advantage. I plan on doing a comparison video just to see if my theory is correct but I would actually argue to enable static bullet spread for heavy as it tends to actually be a detriment instead of an aid a lot of the time since the difference in game play is even less negligible for Heavy. The same can be said for snipers SMG as it fires at the same interval rate as the minigun but has less pellets, however RBS seems to change little for sniper. Another can be said for spy where a consistent bullet spread is fairly insignificant where when you want your shots to land you just wait a few MS for a 100% accurate shot.

@bucket6988

2 жыл бұрын

As an added note to Zesty's take on fast firing hitscan weapons let me iterate on how it works for rapid fire weapons because it's very different from shotguns and same can be said for a revolver which fires one pellet. The consistent spread is not perfectly accurate, instead it rotates in the same pattern repeatedly, giving it a "consistent" spread, however how this pattern is produced dictates whether it's good for the weapon. In my opinion it's entirely insignificant for revolvers and rapid fire weapons.

@PoneDtheGuy

2 жыл бұрын

@@bucket6988 isn't that entirely placebo though? As far as I'm aware turning rbs off literally only applies to shotguns. Rapid fire guns being brought up is not because they're directly part of the rbs debate but as an example that rbs is a balancing mechanic. Such is the case for most if not literally all first person shooters, even the hard-core ones such as CS:GO. Yes CS:GO has spray patterns (and I'm pretty sure Zesty is just factually wrong in saying they gave shotguns a fixed *spread* in CS:GO*), but they are a separate mechanic from bullet spread, every gun in the game has bullet spread to discourage spraying/spamming at a long distance, even if you know the spray pattern (with exception to the negev which gets more accurate when sprayed although still has minor spread even then). *edit: it would seem shotguns both do and do not have fixed spread in CS:GO, they all shoot in unique patterns, but each pellet still has slight variations. Thus still technically having RBS but it's very minor.

@M.J44

2 жыл бұрын

THE SYRINGE GUNS HAVE RBS? WHAT THE ACTUAL SHIT, TURN IT OFF

@CosmicAfro

2 жыл бұрын

@@bucket6988 I can save you the time and research on RBS being needed for Heavy. Step one, you turn off random spread for Heavy and the bullets land directly on his crosshair. Fun fact, the first bullet in your minigun is 100% accurate and actually can be used like a revolver. Tomi Sniping for aggro'ing snipers is a legit strategy and it works very well. Step two, you realize hackers used to do this often and realize heavies with pinpoint accuracy would kill people immediately across the map, or easily chunk their health. Step three, you keep RBS on and summon an eldritch god and show him what power a 100% accuracy heavy is, and you tell him to bury the command for RBS off in the sun.

Rewatching this video with more experience (Still no ill will toward zesty) New notes: *A general question* So how is this different from random damage spread? Random damage spread would also cause a perfectly aimed shot to deviate up or down due to RNG, do you think random damage spread should be added back to casual? 2:17 *the tests* I would hate to make your testing even more extensive as 1512 IS a lot of shots, HOWEVER, you should also test missing the target slightly to the left and right as well as up and down (maybe the engineer's shoulders, hips, and head) as bullet spread may reward poor aim if you get lucky. Bullet spread is not only a problem of losing damage you should have done, but gaining damage undeserved. 7:38 *More damage not being negative* except that more damage is also negative (see *"the tests"* for a more indepth explanation) It'll let you get an unfair victory, maybe that heavy needed that extra 2-5 health to win a fight, but random bullet spread decided that you earned an extra pellet or two. Like random crits, just to a lesser degree, it let's you get kills for being stupid. Poor aim? Who cares have some extra damage because you aimed left when the bullets went right. "I got a kill, that guy sucks, get owned idiot" 11:33 *if there is a difference it's very subtle* Even if it's subtle it adds up over time, does it not? Even a 10% reduction on a 10 damage weapon will add up over time. Imagine a scenario where a slight deviation means everything. You're using the frontier justice, the round is about to end a demo destroys your sentry with the loch n' load dealing 27 splash, lauching you away from the demo and dealing an additional 2 fall damage leaving you with 96 HP and out of shotgun range. You have ONE crit locking each pellet at 18 damage and increasing effective range, he took at least 32 damage since you heard your lvl 2 sentry hit him twice leaving him with 143 HP. At the range you're at you expect to hit 6 pellets (108 damage) letting you follow up with an additional 2 non-crit 6 pellet, 18 damage shots dealing at total of 144 damage just barely killing him, eating the pill he fired to save your buildings dying in the process and letting your team win the round. However, RBS was not in your favor, you hit 3 crit pellets (53 damage) and a total of 5 non-crit 3 damage pellets (15 damage) dealing a total of 68 damage leaving the demo at 75 HP, heroically eating the pill, dying, and then having your buildings destroyed losing the round. 15:37 *stock uber* nothing else to say, just stock uber I will say however, I couldn't care less about it's removal it's casual, however, your arguments, are . . . Let's just say they're a brick wall with a door anyone can walk through.

@ashtongiertz8728

2 ай бұрын

I think random damage spread + random bullet spread is too much RNG to be manageable. If random damage spread is to be brought back, it shouldn't apply to shotguns or mini guns. If RBS was to be removed however, we can bring back RDS without fear of exponential RNG

Random crits are absolutely fine. As long as I'm the only one getting them

I hate how sometimes a Scout can just deal 50 damage from midrange to me in one shot just because he got a lucky spread, and being unable to consistently estimate stuff like that is enough reason for me to not want RBS. The fact it's even *possible* to do 12 damage instead of 50 at random is just stupidly unfair.

@doe2218

2 жыл бұрын

You must be really lucky to get it, but i still agree

@jacehackworth6413

2 жыл бұрын

Sure, but I would rather have a scout get lucky 50 on me every once and a while rather than them doing consistent 40's on me all the time.

@ryanritchey3574

2 жыл бұрын

I have played 9,000 hours of TF2, never seen a 50 damage scout shot from mid range. Maybe it’s 1 in a Billion, but stop whining

@chrismonge3215

2 жыл бұрын

@@ryanritchey3574 200 hrs scout here, and it kinda is but it can happen It's just happened to me twice so far Once at almost point blank with my reticle around the arm area of an engine, but only did 18 DMG, the remaining 8 pellets literally made a carved moon on the far right side of the bloom (could be more about TF2 fucked server connection than RBS though)

@soapgod5554

2 жыл бұрын

@@jacehackworth6413 “i like RBS because it benefits me”

Slight flaw in the argument. The 15% of the time that the shots did higher damage is still a downside because it’s equally as true for the enemy. So not only does half your shot whiff for no reason but the engineer you’re fighting could fire a slug at you instead. It may not be as significant as random crits but there’s still a tangible enough difference that I frankly can’t believe anyone with significant time in the game wouldn’t notice.

@redline841

2 жыл бұрын

Rather have higher damage tbh. Makes the shotguns feel better and more consistent

@bagofbananas790

2 жыл бұрын

@@redline841 you also get a 15% chance of dealing less damage per shot.

@redline841

2 жыл бұрын

@@bagofbananas790 I accept the gamble

@matthewsusilo8698

2 жыл бұрын

But you can also twist the argument by saying your enemy ALSO can deal less damage than they normally would. Honestly, I feel like it could go either way, but I think more people make a fuss about it because of confirmation bias and the fact people don’t like to think that “I got that kill from sheer RNG,” when RBS does go in their favor

@Gimfigle496

2 жыл бұрын

@@matthewsusilo8698 My point being that it isn't just a 15% chance of a downside, it's 30%. Which is a lot when you're weighing options going into battle.

"tf2 is a clusterfuck, a cluster fuck of different skill levels mashed together with a plethera of different class abilities. hit scan, projectiles, knives, clubs, swords, fucking fire!" perfectly incapsulates this game, and why its so good

1:30 man is it time for dessert 'cuz this dood has some CAKE

Good video! Well argued. Small critique of your methodology (or presentation of data, depending how you want to look at it), though: I think you should have done the same experiment with fixed bullet spread as a control and used the results from that as the basis of comparison so that you're showing the difference between vanilla and what you're arguing against.

@steeltalon937

2 жыл бұрын

He shows some clips of fixed bullet spread in the training area he had but yeah he doesn't specifically talk about them, however, with fixed bullet spread every shot would deal the exact same amount of damage so it's less of an experiment and more of a check what those dmg values are.

Implies that casual players who would prefer random mechanics removed are competitive bandwagoners, doesn’t elaborate, leaves

@johndriscoll213

2 жыл бұрын

That's Zesty's schtick.

@chickennugget6684

2 жыл бұрын

Oops, i want the tiniest bit less rng in the game, guess i’m a tryhard who kills friendlies while yelling about how nobody plays competitive.

@johndriscoll213

2 жыл бұрын

@@chickennugget6684 Killing friendlies is great, it's really funny when they rage in chat afterwards.

@josephg1125

2 жыл бұрын

@@chickennugget6684 lots of ppl play comp, just not valve comp

I think you've turned me on this aspect of TF2's RNG. Though, I'd still rather have random crits be removed or otherwise made less random in pubs. There isn't a whole lot I disagree with here, and your argument was constructed nicely. Great video, man.

@mutilator97

2 жыл бұрын

I think random crits would be fine if they didn't scale with damage done. Keep them forever at their lowest value.

@CanadianTeaMaker

2 жыл бұрын

@@mutilator97 I'm personally of the opinion to remove random crits on all ranged weapons, but keep them for but keep them for melee weapons. It'd remove 90% of the complaints about random crits I think but still leave them open for people to goof around with things like demopan.

@tgoas9142

2 жыл бұрын

@@CanadianTeaMaker my biggest issue with random crits is on melee. Snipers are meant to be vulnerable at close range. Snipers need to rely on range in order to have an advantage over their enemies due to their rifle's high damage and lack of falloff. Just kidding nevermind they delete you instantly half of the time because fuck you for trying to take advantage of snipers biggest weakness. Jarate bushwacka is bad enough but random crits let him keep hold of his secondary slot for his smg or a backpack whilst not leaving him with damage vulnerability from the bushwacka and whilst still letting him one shot you

@DrunkedOwly

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, also, if going to the reduce probability, rockets and splash damage weapons should have the less

@ethereal231

2 жыл бұрын

A key thing he focused on in the video is Negative and Significant. Random crits are both of this. It's not a 15% damage different is 3x damage for no fall off at no cost. That's a pretty significant value and anyone who's ever played a game of pub TF2 could probably list a few moments where their push was completely shut down by a single random crocket from a gibbus soldier. Random bullet spread I don't really care about, but random crits are absolutely abysmal. Regarding the whole "leave them on melee weapons" argument, that's also not great either. The ability to one-shot 5 of the 9 classes at a significantly high rate is incredibly powerful and nullifies the weaknesses of classes like Sniper and Medic. The latter of which is notorious for critting what feels like 100% of the time and arguably has more of a reason to remove random crits from melee. Sure, the Ubersaw is almost a guarantee "fuck light classes" weapon. But many would argue that it would be more beneficial for there to be no random crits so that the medic could get a second swing and build more uber. EDIT: Also, this argument of "random-crits break stalemates" is a really dumb one because *cough cough* Ubercharge exists *cough*. Also, people have been complaining about random crits long before the competitive TF2 community got involved.

Honestly, this video made me flip from not caring about bullet spread, to thinking it should be turned off. Your own data shows that most of the time players won't noticed if it's off... But getting a low damage roll always sucks, which means players will only notice it *specifically* when it hurts them. Most players won't be able to notice when a high damage roll helps them, making the experience overall feel more negative. So why not leave it off if most players won't notice or care?

@blazinga3815

2 жыл бұрын

If they can't notice if a mechanic has been turned off, then wouldn't the same be for it being turned on? If they won't notice or care about bullet spread most of the time, wouldn't that not be ruining the experience at all? Often the result is blamed on random crits, aim, ping, hitboxes or loads of other random factors that contribute to lower damage output that AREN'T random bullet spread. It's not very often someone blames bullet spread for a death. So why turn it off if it doesn't make much of a difference when it's on anyway? And even then, random bullet spread can be beneficial to the fairness of the game. That's because also a balancing mechanic in a way. Imagine a heavy's minigun, but pinpoint accurate. It's already hard to get around a heavy's minigun fire, but without random bullet spread, that would make the one weapon that lacks the need to reload, with a very high firerate, be pinpoint accurate. It would be dealing the most consistent amount of DPS at the exact same ranges, which would be VERY unbalanced and predictable, and even then with it turned on it's not like it's THAT unpredictable. It's reasonable why you'd turn it off, but often they don't even matter if you DO get a low damage roll. Besides, the pellet accuracy roll thing only covers SHOTGUNS. If you account for SMGs, Miniguns, Revolvers, Pistols, often it doesn't come down to bullet spread that makes you lose a fight, but rather the other factors. If anything, it helps balance out one. It should be kept on imho because it's a mechanic that introduces unpredictability and balancing out weapons (or the scout himself) that would otherwise be overpowered or make no difference without it. It's not so bad. Why's it a problem in the first place? It's not exactly a common complaint (let alone a complaint at all) in alot of other games, even ones similar to TF2.

@eccentricjoe8786

2 жыл бұрын

@@blazinga3815 you didn’t even disprove his point. Don’t compare a 1/7 chance of having a very dissatisfying shotgun shot to something like ping which is out of anyone’s control. If ping could be removed, would players want it kept into the game for it’s random and unpleasant effects? This is something that is a controlled and programmed phenomenon that only effects a player dramatically when you shoot someone and all the bullets swivel around their hitbox. No player of any skill or level of familiarity with TF2 would enjoy that except someone who has overthought the concept to the point of obscurity. EDIT: Automatic weapons are different as the rapid nature of the projectiles never are taken into account, and could remain in either state. The impact it has on burst weapons like shotguns are the issue at hand, and what produces such a noticeable and undesirable experience.

@Leo.23232

Жыл бұрын

yeah, you need to weigh up both the pros and cons of a mechanic when you discuss removing it if all you do is demonstrate the that the cons of the mechanic were minor, it means nothing until you can prove the pros of keeping it outweighs that in this case, it barely makes a difference, but it is a slightly difference, on the other hand the only good thing about it is the fact it keeps shotguns less effective at longer range, but if that was the desired effect why not just increase damage falloff to achieve the same result without having any undesirable effects at all. so therefore it should be removed

@willow7610

Жыл бұрын

At the same time getting a meat shot is always super satisfying so it can definitely have its positives too if it can get you one from a little further out, which the data showed it could. Also keep in mind that the 15% chance was only at a range where you probably shouldn't be using the shotgun anymore to begin with. At the range of normal shotgun play its effects are minimal and can go both ways. Also like he said, it makes a shotgun act like a shotgun.

RNG in video games can make for interesting mechanics. Overall I would say TF2 doesn't do RNG very well since it doesn't contribute to the game in a meaningful way. A game that does RNG very well in comparison is Dota 2, where things like rune spawns and certain abilities are random yet you can always account for them some way. It means you can play around the expected RNG, as opposed to TF2 where you can killed by a crocket as soon as you walk around the corner. Can't really play around that. The irony is Dota 2 is a hypercompetitive game but the RNG arguably makes it more skill based by forcing you to account for the random factor. Honestly though Dota balance gets like x100 times the effort TF2 gets, at least.

@ilikemusic3856

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you for being the only person in this game who doesn't blindly hate dota 2. I see some people saying that dota 2 is the start of valve's decline as a game developer. Even though tf2 should be blamed IMO as it was the first valve game to first introduce loot boxes and microtransaction

@m136dalie

2 жыл бұрын

@@ilikemusic3856 I've got 1k hours in Dota and 3k in TF2 and I think they're both great games. Dota is a fantastic games the real problem is players can be so toxic it makes the game hard to enjoy.

@ilikemusic3856

2 жыл бұрын

@@m136dalie Though I have been playing tf2 way less(barely played 5 hrs this entire month). I still play CS:GO and Dota 2 a decent amount. And yes dota 2's community is toxic. But Tf2's community is not a gurdian angel as some likely you to believe. You got people who post garbage on KZread(zealot) to people who send straight up send death threats if a youtuber they like starts making variety content. And in the meanwhile you got manchildren,children,furries,annoying tryards,people who try to make this game be competive even though there are like 100 reasons why it can't,people thinking if you play dota2 or cs:go you are "stupid".etc etc. Now there's somethings good about this community but they are so rare and far between compare to all the dogshit that surrounds it.

@m136dalie

2 жыл бұрын

@@ilikemusic3856 You gotta admit, TF2 pubs are extremely chill. No one flames you, gets mad for buying wrong item or stealing kill. Dota pubs, even unranked sometimes, people just have so much internal anger they will lash out at the smallest thing. There's toxic people everywhere but I feel Dota, despite being a good game, tends to bring out the worst in people. I rarely have to mute people in TF2 but in Dota it's become second nature to mute teammates who flame.

@ilikemusic3856

2 жыл бұрын

@@m136dalie I think this is because of 2 things. 1. Tf2 is a casual game at heart and the fact there's like 12 players in both team. So if someone fucks up in tf2 it isn't a huge deal unlike dota which has 5 players each so if someone fucks up it would matter. 2. Maybe most of the players are F2P.

I can confirm from playing Fistful of Frags (a game that has shotguns with fixed spread patterns), that having fixed spread patterns benefits the game significantly, it allows players to almost always kill an enemy in 2 center of mass shots compared to other games, since the damage will be consistently 50. Also that game is super casual too.

@bl1tz533

2 жыл бұрын

Real sad what happened to that game

@lynxovski

2 жыл бұрын

@Cyrus Stryker Just like I hinted at before, random spread patterns cause the common situation in shotguns of instead killing an enemy in 2 shots, it takes 3 because both of the shots decided to deal 47 damage, wich is enought to ruin someones day after they get killed by that same enemy. If we are going for realism, just like shotguns are way more accurate in real life, they also create almost perfect circle patterns with their pellets (unless they are using a muzzle modification that isn't a simple circular barrel).

@Androidonator

2 жыл бұрын

@@bl1tz533 What ? It's fine.

@cybergrape2077

2 жыл бұрын

It always felt like FoF had the meatiest meatshots, I guess that's why. I never knew

@homesinc

2 жыл бұрын

@Cyrus Stryker makes hitting meat shots more satisfying as you know you earned your high damage output by aiming properly

Important to note that damage thresholds play a HUGE factor in killing your enemy, your differences at medium and long range even in the expected bell curve can tip yourself into two shot or three shot range for light classes, three or four for medics, ect. which can play a pretty huge impact at larger ranges

@ashtongiertz8728

2 ай бұрын

Except due to the objective based win/lose conditions and the team factor, the outcome of individual dogfights doesn't really impact the outcome of the fame. It's the combined sum, and that's when probability evens out, leaving skill as the deciding factor.

@Pigmedog

2 ай бұрын

@@ashtongiertz8728 yeah but we're exclusively talking about this issue in the context of 1 on 1 dogfights, the overall game impact is minimal because its a symmetrical effect

@ashtongiertz8728

2 ай бұрын

@@Pigmedog I'm just putting it into perspective. If we focus our argument solely on how it effects individual dogfights, we'll quickly lose perspective. The main argument against RBS is that it can mess with individual dogfights. My counter-argument is that TF2 wasn't designed around individual dogfights, so we shouldn't balance things around individual dogfights unless the outcome is consistently stacked in one direction (eg sniper can kill 5/10 classes instantly at ranges where 4/5 of those classes are only capable of chip damage)

Good content, though the fact that the experiment had so many constants means that it won't accurately reflect many of the complaints wrt random bullet spread - although that's more just a limitation with the game in general. I think turning off random bullet spread in casual wouldn't hurt, really. Also saying that the bullet spread is "predictable" is kinda absurd, since 99% of players don't know the damage range and can't accurately calculate how likely their shot is to deal less or more damage. This also ignores that most fights are going to be between two constantly moving targets, which will cause any form of random bullet deviation to matter so much more. It is also true that there are tons of factors in TF2 that affect consistency, some of which can't be fixed, but this isn't really an argument *against* removing the factors that can be easily addressed.

I don't see how removing random bullet spread potentially pushes TF2 into territory it doesn't belong if RBS is as insignificant as you make it out to be. Random crits are a game changing mechanic, RBS is a quality of life change that removes any chance of variation that could occur whether in your benefit of shit aim or to your negative of proper aim but poor RNG, regardless of how small of a difference it makes. People feel less robbed when they fail to secure a kill, people feel less robbed when they lose a duel, and people have less excuses for why both of those factors occurred. RBS at times is more of a mental thing than it is a pure gameplay thing, but inherently a mechanic that brings in factors outside of the player's control even if the player did what they were supposed to do is an awful design, and shouldn't exist on that principle alone. RBS is entirely a matter of opinion on principle, same way that people gripe about the game being too casual or too competitive.

@GiRR007

2 жыл бұрын

The variation is suppose to be there as a form of balance for the shot guns Without it they become too consistent at ranges they shouldn't be Its something that's meant to be out of control. Just look at what it does to scout in comp. With his pellets being so much more consistent he basically gets a range boost as he can now more consistently deal larger amounts of damage at medium range instead of feeling the urge to be as close as possible anymore.

@berni1011

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, it's more of QOL thing. I don't care if it isn't realistic, if fuck up a shot I would preffer the fuck up being on me. It enfuriates me when one pellet misses my enemmy because it decided to fuck off to the edge of the cone as scout at short range and they live.

@harryvpn1462

2 жыл бұрын

@@GiRR007 balancing around random factor specially in a game like tf2 is terrible design

@kingcrawful7903

2 жыл бұрын

@Cyrus Stryker Ah yes, tf2, pinnacle of realistic weapons and mechanics. Also explain the panic attack lol

@GiRR007

2 жыл бұрын

@@harryvpn1462 no it's not Plenty of things are based around random factors. The pistol, revolver, mingun, dmg all have random factors and are balanced by those random factors.

I don't see any reason for keeping RBS in. It's impact is negative. Sure, it's impact is barely negative, but it's still negative. I haven't heard an argument for why RBS is a positive mechanic. The only one I could think of is something similar to the argument for random crits (it feels good to get good RNG), but you make it clear that your point is that they ultimately don't matter, which would conflict with that. I do agree that RBS is fine for weapons like the pistol, smg, minigun, etc... and it seems Valve agrees. Their official command for turning off RBS still leaves it on for those weapons and only disables it for shotguns, scatterguns, and their alternative unlocks. If one side is against having RBS and the other is apathetic to it, then what would be lost from removing it?

@gabrielraynard8056

2 жыл бұрын

well... it balance scout from being a meta class to an annoying nuisance

@_-Huligan-_

2 жыл бұрын

@@gabrielraynard8056 Coming from a long-time Scout main, what makes him meta is his movement and his high damage output. Scout isn’t known for accuracy. He’s about getting in as close as possible and maximizing damage while keeping up movement and evading the enemy’s damage. I think RBS has a bigger effect on classes like Engineer, Pyros, and Soldiers who run shotgun. Since they lack mobility (atleast when they have their shotgun out), they benefit from keeping a medium distance and being consistent with their shots.

@gabrielraynard8056

2 жыл бұрын

@@_-Huligan-_ that's the point. Damage fall off maybe there already, but these class usually end up in close range anyway. These class also have an extra firepower, but it also can be complemented even more with their other weapons, the shotguns. That is the balancing side of RBS, to prevent these class from abusing their firepower without punishment. You can't just escape a fight by pulling it out when your main source of damage got depleted without being punished. Scout don't have extra firepower like rockets and sentries, so his scattergun deals higher max ramp up damage than the shotguns with conjunction of speed, making the user must take more risk, but also can dish out high damage and hard to hit. So his medium range is gimped by this 2 factors to make scouts a high risk high reward. You dish out higher damage than most shotguns with mobility to compensate the distant and make yourself hard to hit with the exchange of low max health and lower medium combat capabilities

@offandsphere6788

2 жыл бұрын

@@gabrielraynard8056 if scout's accuracy is really a problem RBS should be removed and then scout's gun accuracy should be nerfed, RBS may mess up scout's medium range fighting skills but there's always a chance that the bullets will actually stay close to the crosshair and get him out of a medium range fight that RBS was supposed to make sure he was going to die

@gabrielraynard8056

2 жыл бұрын

@@offandsphere6788 We got that with the backscatter. The gun's pointless because you have to go into the already effective range of scouts to do the exact same damage but also still gimped by the downside if you not shooting the enemy's butt. In other words your compromised didn't change anything, so why changing it if the old system still do the same?

“How do you dodge a soldiers rockets if even he doesn’t know where they’re going” - Sounsmith

i like how this guy is still playing tf2, respect to you. also love your science lessons put in a game, best way to learn no cap.

@joeyjonquantaviusjr9927

2 жыл бұрын

The 70,000 real players

Random bullet spread isnt that noticable at all, there is just absolutely no reason for it to exist. Its removal would only be a net positive cuz the casuals wont notice/care and the tryhards/more competitive ppl wont get upset in the rare occasion that it messes something up.

@OMalleyTheMaggot

2 жыл бұрын

"B-but muh realism" "B-but muh ""soul"""

@SaltCane

2 жыл бұрын

What? What about RBS on miniguns, pistols and SMGs? In there they're pivotal in balancing the weapon. Why do competitive tryhards want shotguns to be better and more consistent at mid to long range when the main realistic and sensible downside in 90% of shooters is that shotguns are *inconsistent* and *worse* at mid to long range? Imagine if the minigun had a predictable and consistent bullet spread. It would be an automatic fucking sniper. It needs it to be balanced. RBS on shotguns is barely noticeable and when it is removed it is not an improvement to shotguns, it's simply an unnecessary statistical buff. There's a reason the panic attack lists its spread as an upside. Do Heavies and snipers bitch and moan when their shots whiff because of spread? No, because they understand the limitations of their spread and play at scenarios that favour their spread. People should be doing the same with shotguns.

@okankorad57

2 жыл бұрын

@@SaltCane ok so now that i've read your whole comment i can reply properly. There already is a mechanic in the game that makes shhotguns suck at mid to long range regardless if there is rbs, it is called "damage fall-off" where you deal less damage the further you are. The argument that shotguns balance depends on the rbs, completely ignores the existence of damage fall-off. So the "balance" argument goes in to the trash because there is already something that keeps the shotgun balanced/make sense in mid to long ranges. The reason why you might want to remove rbs is the very rare occasions that you lose a kill due to it, like some of the shots uncle dane exlampified in his "Remove Random Crits" video. While these circumstances are very rare, they are extremely annoying when they happen. And the fact remains that most players woulnt even notice/care about the removal of the rbs. The people who would notice it are the "tryhards" and it would make that side of the spectrum happier as a result. While not affecting the more casual side in the slightest. As i mentioned in my original comment this only results in a net positive so there is no reason for rsb to not be removed. Thanks, have a good day!

@JagEterCoola

2 жыл бұрын

@@SaltCane Pistols and SMGs have fixed variations of 0.2, even if you turn off RBS. The minigun's pellets fire in a circle, with one landing in the middle with RBS off, giving you consistent damage output, and yet Heavy is by far one of the least played classes in competitive or community servers.

@Smoothiecom

2 жыл бұрын

@@SaltCane they dont have to be inconsistent at long range range. Just worse. No RBS still has the shotgun be worse at long range, so it is perfectly balanced

Fixed bullet spread is a lot like UCF in Melee. It's unnoticeable most of the time for most people but makes a decent difference at top-level play. Likewise, I think it makes sense to have it in competitive settings, but I don't really care if it's there or not.

Random bullet spread is the worst of both worlds: It doesn’t impact the game _that much_ and you only notice it when you _don’t_ kill someone you were aimed straight at. There isn’t a single benefit to it, unlike random crits which, while I don’t like them, they do have good qualities. They _should_ be removed but there’s no reason to get too upset that it exists in the meantime.

@someweeb3650

2 жыл бұрын

Circular spread patterns are tighter than square ones. Your shotguns while less consistent with random spread, hit a smaller area.

@realdragon

2 жыл бұрын

It was so satysfying when I killed medic, heavy and someone else with single crocket

@masonrussell579

2 жыл бұрын

What about inaccuracy for pistols and revolvers? Or how demo’s pipes have random rotation and explosion times? Or how literally every other game, including competitive ones like CSGO, have some sort of random spread or inaccuracy?

@ItsNothingPersonal32

2 жыл бұрын

Zesty literally said it's in the game for balance reasons. Shotguns aren't supposed to be snipers. Most competent shooters nowadays have it to limit weapons' effective ranges.

@ashtongiertz8728

2 ай бұрын

​@@someweeb3650actually, the fixed spread pattern is 33% tighter than RBS.

The problem with RBS is that it obscures whether or not you're missing your target or just getting unlucky. There's also times where you will completely miss a meat shot because all the pellets distribute to some unusual direction, like in videos like this: kzread.info/dash/bejne/oKugwdaKote4ido.html kzread.info/dash/bejne/paCWp9J_aZnLkZM.html Biggest thing is that there is such a thing as the negativity bias, so negative events are remembered twice as much as positive ones. So effectively you need to double the numbers used for how often the player notices them, which is about 30% which is far less favorable. Other issue is that it also affects how the opponents estimate whether they can disengage or not. If they assume a shotgun will do 8-20, but it instead all pellets connect and it hits for 36 and you probably die when you otherwise would be just fine.

@sirdomo4

2 жыл бұрын

tldr

@ReshyShira

2 жыл бұрын

@@sirdomo4 Negativity bias makes it feel closer to 30% change to botch or get snipped from far away.

@jacehackworth6413

2 жыл бұрын

For those clips you gotta think. Did the rbs actually make a difference in the fight? The second clip maybe, but in the first clip not only did he aim at the top of the engineers back on his side so it makes complete sense those shots missed, but he won the fight easily anyway. It does make a difference but it's so minor you almost never notice it. It just feels like such a nitpick because there are so many more things in the game that are complete bs and ruin the game for way more people than it helps only to talk about randomness costing you a handful of damage.

@ryanritchey3574

2 жыл бұрын

Imagine spending this much time on a mechanic that doesn’t effect anything

@ReshyShira

2 жыл бұрын

@@ryanritchey3574 That you'll need to bring up with Zesty.

Welp I'm here before the video started. So here is my prediction. Random bullet spread very bad, a few rage moments, Patreon plug, (sponsors are lame) the highest quality intro ever. I learn a lot about source spaghetti. And a TF2 server plug (I will start playing on them I SWEAR) I'll be back after the video :) Edit: halfway through video, forgot he intense math. My bad guys. Edit 2: just got to Patreon, knew it. Edit 3: ey hay not to bad missed a few and got a few wrong but I learned a lot and predicted the future. ( I dont mean to call you out zesty still ly) nice video as always and thanks for reading my comment

@thebosstre

2 жыл бұрын

Meta

@Jckfrbn

2 жыл бұрын

+1 except he subverts expectations and says random bullet spread isnt a big deal Then the rest of what you said

@Small_child_punter

2 жыл бұрын

That will certain cover it

@TacoTownUSA

2 жыл бұрын

@@Jckfrbn it's this.

@dukFriend

2 жыл бұрын

Sounds right

He was honestly starting to lose me with the claim that the RBS didn’t have that significant of an impact- until he pointed out all the OTHER things that affect inconsistent damage.

@puddin555

2 жыл бұрын

And guess what, almost all of these things are in the player's control, RBS is pure RNG

@mark-jf5ik

2 жыл бұрын

@@puddin555 you dont have to pile them up like theres so many, it’s literally just aim and skill,

@shoelace5977

2 жыл бұрын

@@mark-jf5ik it should still be mentioned that among the many factors that decide the damage per shot (presented at 10:17) several of them are still visibly presented to the player *before* he fires. this does not include: internet performance, hardware performance, random crits and random bullet spread, which is either hard/impossible to determine without tools, or just randomly applied after firing.

@TooFewSecrets

2 жыл бұрын

@@shoelace5977 And in an ideal case internet and hardware performance would be removed, leaving the only remaining features in that list both RNG luck mechanics.

@miemsliva4464

2 жыл бұрын

@@TooFewSecrets Sadly, in this day and age the internet and hardware performance certainly isn't something anyone can control nowadays, not unless you live in the upper-middle class

“here’s your obligatory and well displayed” Ad plays *OH OH OH OH RILLYYYYYYYYYYY AUTO PARTS*

Still not convinced by this. In my OPINION, rbs is still a completely arbitrary mechanic that negatively affects your shotgun. Unnoticeable, sure, but unnoticeable doesnt make it necessary. One console command and its gone. Random crits are noticeable and have a much larger impact on the game in comparison to rbs, but that doesnt mean "rbs has less of a reason to be removed" that just means to me that "the removal of rbs can be summed up to "its unnecessary" and thats all it needs." Like it or not, it still objectively negatively impacts the damage of your shotgun. I dont care if rbs means that shotguns are more realistic, tf2 is a completely unrealistic game. In a game where multiple rockets can be stored in a launcher at one time and a pair of mittens are considered viable combat options, then shotguns always firing in a fixed pattern is the least of our worries in relation to the tf2 worls continuity with our own. I just think the argument starts at "arbitrarily and negatively affects the damage of your shotgun" and ends at "unnoticeable but unnecessary"

@SaltCane

2 жыл бұрын

RBS on miniguns, pistols, and smgs? Why do people want shotguns to be consistent and better at mid to long range when the realistic and main downside of shotguns in 90% of games is that they are inconsistent and worse at mid to long range? Imagine if the minigun had a fixed and predictable spread. It would make it an automatic sniper for fuck's sake.

@crimzone2434

2 жыл бұрын

@@SaltCane yeah, things like miniguns, pistols, smgs, revolvers, ect. should have random bullet spread because then they would be unbalanced. But the difference is that they're sustained fire weapons. The difference with shotguns are burst fire weapons with natural spread. Shotguns arent balanced by RANDOM bullet spread, its bullet spread in general. You do less damage at longer ranges thats the downside to any shotgun. The inconsistency of rps is that now you have a chance to do less damage at closer ranges wheee the shotgun is meant to be stronger. Removing rps doesnt just make the shotgun to 90 damage at long range, the natural bullet spread of shotguns does the balancing for it. It is not a necessary balancing mechanic and many community servers have already proved just how minimal an effect it has on a typical game of tf2. Tf2 doesnt have to have every mechanic a regular fps game has, all it has to do is be first person and have guns you can shoot at other people, they can choose the factors of how you shoot or what amount of damage, knockback, ect. the shooting does

@bewawolf19

2 жыл бұрын

Except the lack of reliability of doing damage is itself a factor. Think about games that allow you to purchase items that give a chance to crit. Aside from specialized builds, you aren't buying crit expecting to get a lucky streak and hit five crits in a row, but rather the fact that it is increasing your Damage that if then paired with items that also increase attack speed, heavily increases lethality. Shotguns not being reliable at mid and far ranges *IS* a factor that isn't arbitrary nor random, as it will always exist every time you use that weapon at those ranges, therefore encouraging options that are more reliable at those further ranges if you want to regularly succeed. Lacking reliability is an acceptable negative factor, and is one heavily used in many games that are *way* more competitive (And balanced) than TF2. To give an example from another Valve game, a key part of Dota's meta is reliable versus unreliable stuns, which heavily changes the value of specific abilities. However Leshrac's unreliable stun (Which has a long setup time) isn't viewed as pointless as you merely need to adjust your playstyle to make it reliably hit, like comboing with other disabling heroes, buying atos or Euls for guaranteed lockdown, etcetera. Likewise, shotguns unreliability comes from range, and the easiest way to mitigate and even eliminate the unrelaibility of the shotgun is to get close to the target you are shooting at. Random doesn't mean bad, and eliminating anything that has any randomness in TF2 would undoubtedly inevitably result in the game being worse. Things like random crits in TF2 are bad implementation as there isn't any regularity to it nor any way to plan around it, but weapon spread and weapon accuracy not only makes sense but is an extremely common factor for balancing and impacting the value of weapons for almost every shooting game I am aware of, with even CSGO (Valve's actually competitive shooter) having inaccuracy and weapon spread instead of making everything perfectly straight laser hitscan.

I _do honestly agree?_ Random Crits are something I won't care about removal or stay of, but RBS? _It does feel right to have it?_ You still have 100% hit chance no matter what regardless, it's just _one_ of a metric crap ton of mechanics and elements that affect if your shot hits hard or if it beefs. Aim... Position... Internet connection...

@epiclamp44

2 жыл бұрын

Just because the game has other elements that affect your shots doesn't justify having more of said mechanics. Their not connected at all. We should minimize such needless randomness, not pointlessly increase them.

@simplysmiley4670

Жыл бұрын

@@epiclamp44 Thing is it doesn't change anything. At the range where that would matter you wouldn't do any more damage then you already did, and at close range? Still doesn't matter, you either hit it or beef it no matter if it's a waffle pattern or not.

bruh the knocking in the video made me actually get up and check

Interesting, random bullet spread actually always bothered me more than random crits. They only happen sometimes, and honestly don't bother me too much, it's also funny when you get them yourself, but with random bullet spread there was this grating inconsistency with every single shot when you followed the projectiles with your eyes, it always struck a nerve with me, even if it did not affect the gameplay as much.

@shrimpchris6580

9 ай бұрын

It's insidious in how subtle it is honestly. It has small effects that are hard to identify every time, but they're always there every time you shoot the shotgun unlike crits. I swear it feels like it compounds with TF2's completely dogshit hitreg to make shotguns feel completely unusable.

I purposefully present contrarian opinions for the sole purpose of farming views, haha, I have tricked you!

@Maythorn

2 жыл бұрын

based

@HEWHOTAWNS

2 жыл бұрын

literally me uniroincally

@zenithzv

2 жыл бұрын

This isn't a joke isn't it

@ZestyJesus

2 жыл бұрын

it is a joke, you moron, it's why I made the comment

@THISPROJECTHASBEENRETIREDwww

2 жыл бұрын

you have no bitches

Imo it's more of casual players don't care if it's on or off... So just have it off? And to the argument that rbs keeps scout in check? No. No it doesn't. Because like you said. Rbs only really effects mid to long range and scout is most effective close range, like right in your face. his low health is the thing that keeps him in check. Hence why the balancing of scout is so good. He's best at very close range and that's also where he's the most vulnerable.

@DivonMC

2 жыл бұрын

Rbs keeps him in check because when it is on he cant get consistent damage from long to mid range, making him a close range beast but really weak and inconsistant at mid to long range

@chrisbenavides5137

2 жыл бұрын

@@DivonMC dude who Is trying to get consistent damage from long range with scout? And even then I'd still argue getting 3-9 damage at long range isn't that big of a deal anyway.

@theeyeballthatcameoutofthe5268

2 жыл бұрын

but if i turn it off then i only have my skill to blame and not the rbs it is just a placebo

@chrisbenavides5137

2 жыл бұрын

@@theeyeballthatcameoutofthe5268 it probably is just placebo but why not eliminate that small factor?

the point is to remove as many variables outside your control as possible. if its trivially easy to disable somethign that causes random inconsistency, there's absolutely no reason to leave it on.

@ashtongiertz8728

2 ай бұрын

Except this is a team-based game where individual matchups are just a small piece of the big picture. And the big picture is where RNG gets canceled out. RBS may win battles, but it can't win wars.

@FelipeJaquez

Ай бұрын

If you remove too many then you make the game boring and destroy it's replayability.

1. Even if it is obvious he should repeat the shooting test with the spread disabled. He didn't have anything to compare it with and just took the average unilaterally. 2. 8:50 He knows that the discussion about the spread isn't only about the player but also the opponent? He put the 15% of the times it does more damage than expected as a possitive, without taking into account the fact when the opponent approaches you, he should know what damage you can dish out and that this damage should be consistent. Otherwise strategy and positioning doesn't have much impact. So it's is still 30% of the time that this happens. 3. Only using one class and not all of them and only having him facing forward instead of at least two more possitions isn't enough to draw any type of conclusion. And given how quick it would be to make those adjustments, it is pure lazyness 4. RaNdOm CrItS bReAcK sTaLeMaTeS. I swear to god. Not a single person that repeats this retarded argument can provide a single clip of that being the case. Because it is not true. The only margnal case that this isn't true, is if the map is unbalanced, a crits kills half the team and you steamroll from then on. On a balanced map, a stalemate usually means the teams are equal roughly. And if the map isn't a clusterfuck, then the team can rebuild and hold another stalemate. Also the mechanic isn't random and just rewards players that have done more damage, so it is usually more likely to reinforce a stomp. 5. A shotgun should feel like a shotgun....in a game where a lead poisoned guy flies by exploding rockets on his feet, teleporters exist and a crazy german dude can defy death. Suuure....

@licemere9899

2 жыл бұрын

I kinda agree about first 4, yet I don't really care about it, I would complain if valve removes it, but 5... No. Tf2 was sci-fi-ish (edit, for me). Yes, teleporters, rocket jumps don't fit into phisics of real life, but things make sense. Explosion "repulse" things, so man could potentially be knocked by it in air; fat man could potentially take more bullets than thin fast dude, etc. So when barrel hasn't got special muzzle and shoots randomly, it's not equal to ultra realistic simulator, it's just general logic. Btw then valve adds freaking banana, so today it's not that true, but when I don't see banana, I see this style in tf2, and I kinda like it. No, removing rbs won't make this less logic, I just say why it makes sense for me to see shotguns without fixed spread.

So, if majority of playerbase is "not care", 15% of negative impact is "not notable" and we have players, who don't like randomness in game mechanics we have a logic conclusion - remove random shotgun spread and game becomes better for all, right?

Personally, even if RBS doesn't make a significant difference, I still support disabling it. Even if it's a small amount damage left up to random chance, you're still leaving that damage up to random chance. It's a similar issue to if there were random minicrits. Sure, it's not a giant issue, but leaving any damage up to random chance rezulsf in the invalidation of skill to a degree, and can result in losing or winning fights you didn't deserve to

@XSniper74184

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah and honestly I know this a bad opinion but with how inconsistent ping and hitreg can be I really like it better when arena shooters use hit capsules rather than tightly bound hitboxes. Basically it's a sorta egg-shaped hitbox around the character model that lets players move fast without the engine dropping the ball on hitreg as much. Basically if a bullet goes under your model's arm or between their legs it still hits them. As for his point about it balancing hitscans I have to strongly disagree. We already have damage fall-off to push combat closer. Additionally, it presents the ability for someone to get lucky and get better damage at long range with shots hitting due to lucky spread. Basically I'm not a fan of leaving something more to chance than it needs to be in PvP games. Why let someone be screwed out of 2-shotting a medic 1/7th of the time just by luck when they could instead just fail because they missed?

@ryanritchey3574

2 жыл бұрын

Okay comp player

@GiRR007

2 жыл бұрын

The damage is suppose to be left up to random chances as a way of balancing the shot guns. They aren't suppose to be consistent, so to eliminate that inconsistency as much as possible it requires you to get as close as possible. Which is what you are suppose to do with a shot gun.

@tgoas9142

2 жыл бұрын

@@GiRR007 if the shotguns consistently did fuckall damage at long range they would be just as balanced. They still spread out over time with fixed weaponspread. I have no idea what Zesty was on about with it balancing shotguns. They are equally balanced at longer ranges with or without it on. It's just less consistent without fixed weaponspread.

@tgoas9142

2 жыл бұрын

@@ryanritchey3574 I wish

Imma be honest with you, its more a question of what variables SHOULD influence gameplay. The examples you gave were all things that were within one or more players control. For example, you could say aim is random chance, because if you let a player shoot their aim will never be 100% consistent, but while it is random to an extent, the extent of that randomness is purely due to a players own skill, as are all the other points you mentioned. Random bullet spread is not wothin any players control, it cant be learnt like with positioning, map knowledge, and movement prediction and it cant be trained like aiming or movement, which is the difference, and the issue for most people. The issue isnt that its random, the issue is WHY its random.

I 100% agree with you. I don't understand why sweaty players only care about shotgun spread and don't bitch about how the minigun isn't a fixed super accurate laser. It's because guns have some random spread in every game and in real life. It's important for keeping an effective range. Even the pistol has spread to prevent people from using it as a laser. It normalizes the skill ceiling somewhat because a bot can't just laser you down.

i like your high effort videos, especially your script writing and editing style. i hope you don't get burnt out from making the most out of this decade old game.

Your data says there is a 30% chance that your shotgun unexpectedly deals more or less damage. I say 30%, because getting killed by a blow that you know you would've survived isn't exactly fun either.

@GiRR007

2 жыл бұрын

You will never be able to tell whether you would or would not have survived a shot because of random bullet. That's how insignificant it is.

@Buglin_Burger7878

2 жыл бұрын

@@GiRR007 Except you can, if the average is 37 then if you have above 37 health and die... you are able to tell.

@GiRR007

2 жыл бұрын

@@Buglin_Burger7878 ok but even if the average for a target holding still at a certain distance away that average always be in flux so again you would never realistically be able to tell.

i realised that due to the nature of RANDOM bullet spread is that there is technically a possibility when you get a crit that all the bullets are centered making a shotgun a sniper unless there is a hidden trait about rbs that makes that impossible

Bullet spread: exists That one bullet in the middle: "You didn't have to cut me off"

OK, outside of the obvious factual statements, I disagree with almost everything said in this video. I find it interesting that the damage variance comes out to around a +/- 15% range, since that's exactly the same range as another long-since gone mechanic, random damage spread. Having what effectively amounts to random damage spread arbitrarily applied to a set group of weapons feels just that, arbitrary. Now I detested random damage spread when it was in the game, random damage spread is a significant portion of the reason I main Sniper to this day because he did consistent damage assuming you hit the head, and its removal was one of the best choices made in the game. I can actually play Demoman now because I don't need to sometimes hit 3 pipes to kill a Soldier. I don't think too many people miss sometimes getting one shot by a Machina bodyshot as a Pyro or Demo, or sometimes needing to hit a light class with your melee 3 times in order to kill them. Applying that same principle of design to shotguns specifically doesn't really make sense to me, if there's so many factors that go into limiting your shotgun damage which you mention, why add a dice roll on top of that? I also find it honestly kind of frustrating that you claim that random bullet spread has very little significant impact on play, which is largely true though those 15% of exceptions are still frustrating, but then immediately turn around and say that it has a necessary balance function on shotguns. You specify that RBS limits the range and damage of shotguns, but even fixed bullet spread and damage falloff accomplish the exact same things. If anything, it could even be argued the other way around, because the negative impact is so minimal, it could be said that RBS enables Scouts to get MORE kills outside of what is meant to be their effective range than is intended, making one of the strongest classes in the game even stronger. Your own data backs this claim up, 85% of the time, a Scout is doing just as well or better than he normally would be. And when random crits are factored into this, or even guaranteed crits in the form of the Frontier Justice, this is made even more extreme. Now I don't use the Frontier Justice all that often, but at ranges where I feel comfortable playing Sniper from, I've gotten insane 72-90 damage shots off on people, and the same is true of any random shotgun crit, just as I've been cursed with 18 damage at close range when my crit bullets follow the player's outline like a Looney Tunes gag. So yes, it sometimes "nerfs" Scout, which I honestly don't even think is a necessary handicap to begin with, but it also sometimes "buffs" him or any other shotgun user. I'm also not sure why the Panic Attack was so scarcely mentioned as an outlier. Its very existence as a reliable means of consistent shotgun damage kind of undermines a lot of this because, let's be real, nothing changes when the Panic Attack is equipped. The server doesn't suddenly become a no fun allowed hyper competitive pubstomp, someone's shotgun damage is just more consistent now. That follows quite well in line with the point made in the first half of the video, but something splits in the middle and things went in a weird direction. Ultimately I find RBS to be a largely inconsequential, yet unnecessary, redundant, and selectively frustrating mechanic. It's a smaller microcosm of random damage spread, a mechanic no one misses. The only argument to be made is one of preference and aesthetic. Yeah, it looks a lot more natural to have your shotgun pellets randomly scatter on a wall, but if you don't shoot at walls, then what difference does it make? I don't see it as a symptom of the slippery slope of competitive players trying to homogenize the game, I see it as needless fat being trimmed. Do I think RBS is just as bad as random crits? Christ, no. Do I think it's the worst issue in the game? Not even close. Do I think the game loses nothing if they're removed? Undoubtedly. Actually, I guess the Panic Attack's fixed spread upside would have to be changed, so one weapon would lose a line of blue text. Maybe a couple less people would use the Frontier Justice since they can't play Engineer Sniper anymore.

@chasekellow3835

2 жыл бұрын

Just play better lol. You can stop by switching off sniper

@chrispy5249

2 жыл бұрын

@@chasekellow3835 you're talking to the man who makes the Bad Weapon Academy videos playing as multiple classes and trying to get the best out of the worst weapons in the game to play better and switch from playing sniper, fucking KEK.

@gueton5200

2 жыл бұрын

good comment, the video is well made in terms of editing and stuff, but the arguments themselves are really weak and don't stand up to scrutiny

@Dr_Dan_

2 жыл бұрын

You know what, i agree, but make it only competitive exclusive. I want (and plenty of other people want) casual to be casual experience

@gueton5200

2 жыл бұрын

@@Dr_Dan_ can't that same argument be made for random crits and random damage as well? I don't think making it a fixed pattern for shotguns will harm the casual experience much

My main issue with your arguments are that, instead of focusing on bullet spread’s impact alone, you factor in everything else instead (also, the amount of damage bullet spread changes results in random damage, even if the amount of damage is negligible it is still there). Basically you justify bullet spread because “hey, damage wouldn’t be consistent because of these other factors anyway” which doesn’t make any sense to me because 1. One random factor in a game doesn’t justify having another 2. all of the inconsistencies you provided are more indirect (like ping and model rotation, the damage will still be consistent if you shoot them exactly the same way) as opposed to bullet spread, which is an intentionally integrated mechanic. Finally, if bullet spread is so negligible, why even have it on in the first place? Regardless of my opinion, outstanding job on making the video. Your opinion is well communicated, and the editing is fantastic 👍

Hey tf 2s gotta have something to argue about

i feel like unlike RCs, RBS barely effects casual and only really affects competitive where teams are super scaled down meaning overall less damage being dished out. to me just... turning it off completely will hurt nobody, players who like no RBS will be happy, players who didn't give a crap (most of the playerbase i would expect since RCs are usually a much bigger issue/topic) will not care regardless, and the only ones who will be upset is those who want to keep RBS. maybe i'm just looking in the wrong places but they seem like a pretty isolated group, RBS just doesn't seem that impactful to leave on but still affects users who care about it more negatively than positively. my stance should hopefully be clear, great editing zesty even if you have stirred up "drama" in the past. i will always respect talent even if their opinions i do not agree with.

Opening strong with the statistics was a solid choice. 85% of shots being standard or better in terms of damage really shattered my expectations established by other youtubers, as I didn't have a full opinion formed personally. I do consider 15% to be FAR from insignificant though, but ultimately RBS is already turned off in places where that 15% would be meaningful. And, the doomsaying around 17:00 about the removal of RBS and the chain effect if could have are pretty unfounded, especially when looking at modern valve and their near total disregard for TF2. RBS would be changed either in tandem with or after other much more significant changes, and the community would crusade against such changes in all likelihood. Outside of those two nitpicks however, this is a really solid video in response to the movement that launched from what was essentially an under-explored, subjective footnote in Dane's video.

@sussy3778

2 жыл бұрын

The 17:00 part is legit a slippery slop fallacy.

@BonziBUDDY

2 жыл бұрын

@@sussy3778 it's a fallacy until it isn't

@elmonke6154

2 жыл бұрын

@@BonziBUDDY it's a fallacy because it's stupid. There's literally nothing hinting that such an insignificant change would eventually lead to more comp changes in the future. Valve doesn't update the game enough for that to happen. Valve completely gave up on comp tf2 after the failure of meet your match comp system. Even when they pushed the game to comp, it wasn't because of small changes in the past.

@Buglin_Burger7878

2 жыл бұрын

There is an issue with these statistics, none of them show what the standard point is... as standard should be the Fixed shot damage. Then everything is above/under that. If you factor that in... the graphs end up showing Fixed does more in close range and less in medium/long range. So RBS actually makes the shotguns better at range oddly enough.

RBS might not do too much all the time but the thought of my perfect shot dealing the exact damage needed to kill someone deciding NOT to kill them since one pellet decided to straight up miss makes using a shotgun in casual just not feel as reliable. Worse than Random crits? No. definitely not. But i don’t like this mechanic having free real estate in the back of my head.

@Buglin_Burger7878

2 жыл бұрын

Also due to RBS people don't fire shotguns at range despite the average damage being BETTER then fixed spread.

Random Bullet Spread is something I actually like. I feel like the only one.

My issue with random bullet spread is that havin it disabled actually make the shotguns about 25% less accurate, so mid range is no good, which contrary to other games is good in tf2 because the shotgun don’t 1 shot and is a secondary weapon unless ur Texan

Honestly the "it doesn't make a significant difference in damage" argument could be applied damage spread as well. The only time damage spread really mattered is when Loch n Load did 120 damage and had a chance to one-shot 125 hp classes. LnL doesn't do that anymore and damage spread was removed anyways.

@tennoskoom9282

2 жыл бұрын

No. Random damage spread was not *just* an issue with the LnL. It screwed up a number of breakpoints by making them exceedingly inconsistent in an annoying manner entirely outside your control. Random bullet spread *can* be controlled by managing your distance. As someone who played comp TF2 for years, I find random bullet spread an annoyance, but an acceptable one. Fixed and predictable bullet spread doesn't just allow for abuse, it can and should be abused if you want to play optimally. Wherein you need to focus on aiming to the sides of the opponent, which is less 'skillful' and more just counter-intuitive.

@neptuniamarina4924

2 жыл бұрын

Demo has a high chance to just not be able to two shot many things, and Stickies meanwhile, now have a chance to one shot light classes. Its very noticable. Also just plain the times you're screwed on RNG with Damage thresholds and the opponent is left with single digit HP.

@kingscab3634

2 жыл бұрын

Random damage spread made a huge difference when using melee weapons. You roll low twice in a row and all 125 health classes were tanking two hits, and that's a GIGANTIC increase to their survivability just because you rolled low

Honestly, in actual gameplay it makes *such* a noticable difference when it does happen that you get lower damage, even if it doesn't happen that often. I think we've all had plenty of frontier justice crits do 18 while stood 2ft from the target, literally 90% of the pellets missing despite you basically having the barrel pressed against them.

@nobleradical2158

2 жыл бұрын

and the opposite especially with the frontier justice, getting sniped by that engineer also feels bad

@theeyeballthatcameoutofthe5268

Жыл бұрын

that's just lag

@ashtongiertz8728

2 ай бұрын

That's either lag or bad aim. There are instances where it can look like you were aimed dead center, but if you go back and rewatch in slow motion, you actually shook out of position in the brief period of time between you beginning to push down your index finger and the mouse clicking.

Really good video and good points. Maybe one more thing to do would have been include a RBS-off shot for each of the three ranges as a comparison for the RBS-on shots, might have been a bit more accurate than assuming the average number

Even in games like CS:GO, random spread is dubious. It shouldn't be possible to sniper an opponent using shotguns. That just doesn't make any sense. If you want to play sniper, use a rifle. Give shotguns significantly increased damage at close range instead. Because shotguns should be a short ranged weapon, it should be a weapon that rewards taking risks by getting close to enemy, in contrast to rifles which is a weapon that rewards good aim. Accommodating different playstyles makes for a more complex game than if every weapon is just basically rifles in disguise. In TF2, you can't headshot an opponent with most weapons, and weapons that allows you to headshot have no spread. That's part of the weapon balance. Also, weapons are balanced by different weapons having different amount of spread and pellets. When weapons have fixed spread, the weapon's spread and number of pellets becomes a lot less relevant, which defeats the purpose of varying amount of spreads and pellets in the first place. In any case, games are about risk management. If random elements like random bullet spread or random crits bothers you, that just means you have poor risk management skill. You don't play more skillfully by removing randomness, that's just an excuse for having poor risk management skills. Uncertainty makes a game more skillful.

@puddin555

2 жыл бұрын

You know that Bullet spread and Damage fall off already make you do piss poor damage at longe range, right????

Def a bit annoying. Thats why i mostly run the panic attack instead of stock.

TLDR: I agree with this video that it doesn't make much of a difference, but its still a nice quality of life thing to have rbs off. I disagree with this video mostly because i feel like (ironically) your putting a lot of weight on how important rbs is for the balance of shotguns. Your point being, "its what makes shotguns weak at long range". and while rbs is a p a r t of that, i think shotgun bloom and damage fall off is what actually makes shotguns weak at long range. Bloom makes less shots hit your target at range, just like rbs and those shots do less damage cause of fall off. As someone who plays a lot of scout (the main class that this point was directed at) I can personally say that rbs being on or off does not make scout any stronger or weaker. I don't think anyone joins a community server that has rbs off and thinks "nice, i can hit 70 damage shots at long range now" or "god now i have to deal with sniper scouts". Like you said, the difference is there but is only the difference of 10 damage at most. So in my opinion, the one reason you listed for why it should be on, is wrong. Even if you disagree with everything i've said so far, I still think that no matter how small the difference actually is, rbs being off is better than having it on. better by a lot? no. But its still nice to not have to worry about that 1/100 chance that one pellet missing gets you killed. again, is it only 1/100? yes, but its still nice. Think of it as a quality of life change, and less of a game changer like random crits. (P.S. i think tf2 is too well designed to not have a comp scene. It almost feels like a waste to never even try and make it work)

@johndriscoll213

2 жыл бұрын

Zesty is rabidly, philosophically anti-competitive. If it's bullshit for somehow upholding the "casualness" of TF2, he's all for it.

Is it me or there's more science and evidence on this video than Uncle dane's video on Random Crits.

15:38 bullshit, stalemates can be broken with ubers and a bunch of other new weapons and mechanics that didn't existed when the game was released. Random crits don't belong in the game anymore.

@licemere9899

Жыл бұрын

it's just "funi", just like taunts or hats

valve give sniper random bullet spread now

Oh my god I HATE the Premiere countdown music... Id rather it silent than the discordant _nightmare_ that it is now...

Just because you're dealing more damage doesn't make it fair or a balanced mechanic. Even if random crits were removed for everyone except me, I still wouldn't accept that, because that's not fair to everyone else. If almost a third of your shots are dealing inconsistent damage, then I consider that worth changing. Even 15% though, for the sake of argument, is still a lot, because overall it does negatively impact the game. It's basically the equivalent of random minicrits happening 15% of the time, but only on shotguns, and if we add the opposite effect, random reverse minicrits. Also, the effect this has on random crits/kritzkrieg shots is MASSIVE, and should not be understated. You can either fail to kill a soldier at almost point blank while kritzed, or snipe a scout from halfway across the map while random critting/kritzed. Edit: also, saying it's only one of many factors is disingenuous, because random bullet spread is an optional mechanic that would be easy to change, meanwhile janky tf2 hitboxes, source code spaghetti, and the quality of your internet are not as much. Also, some of those factors you listed existed in relation to your aim or even just game-sense. With random bullet spread, it is random.

Consistency as a design decision is a concept I don't see discussed much outside of card games, so I'm glad Zesty brought it up! Whether it's individual cards, decks, or even the overarching archetypes present in every card game, the potential value spread is a part of the balance. The Aggro and Combo archetypes are all about high value, but at the cost of lower consistency, while Control and Midrange focus on consistent value at the cost of lower blowout potential. I'm simplifying of course, but it's just interesting to see this general take brought out of the card game sphere.