Hi, I am *the* Toren Hynes listed on the patent. I did the work mentioned in the video, together with Dr. David Hall, as an undergraduate during a co-op work term with Dr. Jeff Dahn between September 2018 and April 2019. I currently hold an MSc in inorganic main group chemistry, and am currently working on a PhD in materials science. Thanks so much TLF for covering my work!

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Thanks for stopping by and dropping a note! 🤠

❤Jordan, thank you for identifying Jeff Dahn as “TESLA’s research partner.” Others derogate Professor Dahn as a “TESLA employee.” Here in Nova Scotia, we are very proud of Dr Dahn’s dedication to creating a sustainable Earth.🌎

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

🤜🤛🤠

Good work and clear explanation as always. Exciting times. Cycle life exceeding the products they're used in will hopefully put to rest the argument that mining for battery materials is somehow as bad for the environment as drilling for oil, refining it, and setting it on fire.

@glennedwards1449

4 ай бұрын

You are kind of missing the point when you drill for oil a finite resource refine it and set it on fire the end result is millions of tons of excess carbon floating in the atmosphere/ When you mine for battery you use it for years then at the end of its lifecycle you recycle it no mining required. In fact eventually the mining will be stopped or curtailed as we will have enough.

@drajitshekher

4 ай бұрын

That is assuming efficient recycling. Which has not been demonstrated at scale.

@AllanSustainabilityFan

4 ай бұрын

@@drajitshekher 95 percent efficiency is not too bad, but yes a small amount of mining will still be necessarily to maintain the circular economy's momentum. Even without recycling it would be a great improvement, but then we have orders of magnitude improvement with that factored in, so it's a bright path forward versus the current status quo.

@donjones4719

4 ай бұрын

Ah yes, that "equivalency" BS of mining for battery materials and oil extraction. I always answer with what should be obvious to them: mining happens once, the oil use happens over and over, every day, for the life of the car.

@terrycain3843

4 ай бұрын

We see how well plastic are recycled that will translate to necessary minerals to build tons of batteries.Tech will get us there someday but no need in people dying until it does.Fossil fuels do the job of keeping humans warm and making millions of products needed for society to thrive.

As a patent examiner for the USPTO, your walkthrough of the patent application was a perfect breakdown for the layperson. Excellent video! And on the divisional continuation, typically DIVs are filed after an application is restricted. It appears that the parent application was restricted between the method and product, and Applicant elected the product. Therefore, Applicant reserved the right to file the nonelected claims as a DIV without risking double patenting.

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Thanks for clarifying and glad I didn't completely butcher it, lol The patent process makes my head spin 😁

@mitchellsteindler

4 ай бұрын

You have a special type of brain to stand reading patents all day. Many of which in sure are illogical, unsubstantiated garbage.

@tgdomnemo5052

4 ай бұрын

I 🙏🏽 REAL pros 👍🏼 Thank You for sharing 🖖🏻

It’s also possible that the additive reduce the rate of charge or discharge that would prohibit them from current vehicles. Possibly, gen3 and more importantly robotaxi will benefit most from these batteries while discharge (and maybe charging time) might be less of an issue. Also, it’s possible this is best used for grid storage but Tesla has too much stuff on its hands that current gen (maybe LFP) are good enough for now. As competition increases in these markets, Tesla might opt to take advantage of these capabilities

@supergrafxengine4620

4 ай бұрын

Wow! You still on robotaxi ......LoL the wake-up call is going to be extremely painful for you in some few months from now. Be ready!

@JRP3

4 ай бұрын

I doubt these tiny percentages of additives would have noticeable impact on C rates. I don't see potential mechanisms to cause that.

@christopherleubner6633

4 ай бұрын

The amount required will be small since it is an oxygen ion transporter catalyst that grabs the oxygen removed from the cathode during discharge and moves it back during charging. Also any aprotic ketone should work OK for this application. 👌

Technical and fascinating. Excellent excellent content. How does this channel not have a million subscribers?

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

😊🤜🤛

@bluetoad2668

4 ай бұрын

The algorithm favours content which elicits strong emotions, this content is in depth, technical and requires a reasonably high level of education to appreciate.

@tgdomnemo5052

4 ай бұрын

... because, as proven by recent MRT-research, the effort to find a solution (THINKING) hurts ... somewhat ... thus must be avoided. . . . another fantastic post 🙏🏼🙏🏽🙏 🖖🏻

Autopilot, Hyperloop, Roadster, Semi, Solar roof. "We can do it now" :D

Jordan... (Happy new year!) ANOTHER Masterclass! . This ties in well with the Jeff Dahn presentation at Dalhousie (from Summer '22?) Where he also mentioned (from memory) that they had "tweaked" certain Nickel based cells, and by turning down the voltage to ±3.9v (still keeping output above LiFePo4 cells) could produce a cell that had *zero* degradation and in fact "hardened" and improved over time. .

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Hi Roger!

@tgdomnemo5052

4 ай бұрын

​@@thelimitingfactor ... "hardening" the cell ? Simply by lowering the voltage ? No offence, but is there any credit to this ... could be done by OTA-update ? 😳🤔🤯🖖🏻

Fascinating. I stop what I'm doing when your videos come out and am amazed at the depth of your work.

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

🔥🤜🤛🤠

A Christmas gift for nerds. Thanks!

Great work Jordan. You are always a great resource

Another superb review from the limiting factor.

Love how Tesla is always working behind the scenes….

Wow. I have to assume BYD, LG, CATL, and others have similar things in the works. A true million-mile battery would allow the owner of the car to use someone those cycles in a power arbitrage market... Millions of people would happily transport 50 kwh from their cheap night rate power into the city to be sold for 5x the price. Bidirectional chargers are all over the place and people like me will pick the best place to go shopping so I can sell 50kwh to the grid that pays the most. This is the solution to the future grid issues people complain about. I mean.. wow...

@georgesamaras2922

4 ай бұрын

You have it backwards. This is true for base load dominant grids of the past, just like cinema tickets cost less in mondays. With solar dominant grids you want morning sunlight energy to move into the night and reduce the constant power base load capacity. Countries of course would benefit from this. Those people that take short trips and seldom charge their battery would benefit by allocating part of tesla's battery for grid balancing and introducing more charge/discharge cycles. Of course that would compete with robo-taxi fleets. You would want your tesla to be out on the streets earning money instead of charging/discharging.

@JohnBoen

4 ай бұрын

@georgesamaras2922 Duck curve. People begin using more power when they get home and when they get up. Solar production begins after the power need begins to go up. Solar power ends when people are done with work. Are you saying that feeding power into the system during the morning when solar is just starting up is not going to do anything You are saying that only people with low mileage needs would do this. No... If you charged and discharged your 7500 cycle battery daily the car will still last 20.5 years. Who keeps a car for 20 years?

@georgesamaras2922

4 ай бұрын

@@JohnBoen It's as simple as that: PVs are dirt cheap batteries aren't: To minimize storage costs, system costs in total, you better align stationary/bounded human activity with sunshine. That implies a shift on how we work and move. You have to move in the night and charge your car/truck in the morning. That could also reduce traffic. Also we will end up heating our homes in the morning 9 to 16 or preheat some kind of thermal mass like an insulated water tank to release heat during the night. Heating things also works with DC potentially downsizing the AC Inverter Requirements. The biggest consumers of energy is transportation and heating. Lights i don't even care they are very efficient. I think that is the optimal way, it's also natural. A human uses like 150kwh /month which is around 5 kwh per day. Teslas are 60-90kwh 1 tesla per family of 5 is still enough .. Worst case we could use a tesla as a UPS because who is feeding what on the grid ain't deterministic at all. Of course we would need smart meters.--------------- Now matter what happens energy is gonna be cheap when the sun shines and if you want to arbitrage energy with your tesla battery for early morning consumers you're gonna have to alter your behavior.

@JohnBoen

4 ай бұрын

@georgesamaras2922 Re: your very first sentence... I think you misunderstand. PV will continue to decline quickly in cost. Adoption will continue to grow... more and more PV will become available. I agree... Ultimately we will have so many solar panels that their energy will be curtailed. The grid's ability to transfer power is limited - if everyone tries to push power at the same time, the grid will fail. If you make too much power, anything beyond this is wasted. Batteries may be more expensive, but they are a necessary component of the future - if we wish to be able to utilize PV at a large scale. Batteries with 7500 cycles will cost about the same as batteries with 2500 cycles. There may be some premium price adjustments, but they will not be 3x the price. Altering cycle life by a factor of 3 cuts battery costs by a factor of almost 3... Large-scale PV implies a much increased demand for grad batteries. These are the assumptions based on your first sentence. Do you see any logic holes in my analysis?

There is a lot to be said for repurposing old vehicle batteries into kick-ass home storage systems. I imagine the appropriate inverters will be a little difficult to come by, but a single 100kWHr vehicle battery at 20%+ degradation would still replace 3+ power-walls and probably serve well for a decade or more.

@rogerphelps9939

4 ай бұрын

Powerwalls are overpriced. You can get an EV with an 80kwh battery for about £40k. That is £500 per kwh. The capacirt of a Tesla powerwall costs less than £7k when embodied in a car. That is less than the cost of an installed Powerwall and you get a car thrown in for free,. Tesla are charging what the market will bear, not a fair price.

@jimparr01Utube

4 ай бұрын

@@rogerphelps9939 That's the capitalist system for you. I understand all you said quite well. In respect of power-wall pricing, there is a lot of flexible electronic tech associated with home storage with the bells and whistles. It is not just a battery.

Thank u for continuing your angle to the tsla story. In fact it would be interesting if u went back and reviewed some of the "breakthroughs" in the other new materials, processes etc for the other companies - space x, boring co, neuralink.

and thank you for doing such a fine job on reporting these changes.........

Fantastic exploration work!

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Thanks man!

Super analysis and summary

Thanks Jordan. As far as I can tell, this doesn't add energy density (ie, range), only battery life. Battery life is pretty good now so I don't see this as a big priority for Tesla. I agree with your reasons why this isn't being used today, especially #3. They have to make absolutely sure there aren't any unintended consequences. It's difficult to do an accelerated life test on something like this. This will take a lot of time and miles of testing.

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

You have to start with requirements. You can't just abstractly say the specs are good or bad or what's desirable unless you know what the batteries will be used for. That is, some uses case simply don't need energy density, some need long cycle life. Regardless, this adds another string to Tesla's bow to craft a battery for a set of requirements. Amen on the rest!

@waynerussell6401

4 ай бұрын

Dahn is an expert in accelerated testing with Coulomb counting and elevated temperature.

@WeighedWilson

4 ай бұрын

My oldest vehicleis a 99 model and my newest is an 08. Until EV batteries last 25+ years I'm sticking with ICE. Longevity is a much larger factor than you're letting on.

@waynerussell6401

4 ай бұрын

@@WeighedWilson Less than 1% of ICE get to 200k miles! (Road&Track 6 Dec 2022). BEV outlast ICE by a factor of three!

Wonderful analysis.

🤗🙋‍♂️THANKS JORDAN,FOR SHARING FANTASTIC 🤩🤩 NEWS…AND THANK ALL YOUR SUPPORTERS TOO💚💚💚

This is my first video of yours, with content like this, I'll be keeping up with all your videos

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

🙌🏼

Happy New Year Jordan! Thx as always for your expert patent sleuthing. We're well informed because of you! Looking forward to eventually seeing this research come to products! Btw we're a 2 Tesla Family now!

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Congratulations! X or Y tesla chromosome?

@NickoSwimmer

4 ай бұрын

@@thelimitingfactor Y Y! His and hers 😉

Thank you!

I'm not sure why it took me so long to discover this channel but it's absolutely brilliant

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

🤠 Glad you found it too! My videos don't normally get distributed terribly widely because I don't use a lot of clickbait.

Great video!

Before even watching this video, thanks for flawlessly holding EE accountable for his ludicrous characterization of Tesla/Elon as “Lying/deceitful” with respect to the Cybertruck.

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Yeah, he was reaching! And thanks! 🤠

"One Pot" comes from Nano One's process.

12:20 Nice catch that there may be beneficial components in the mix of impurities.

I'm not sure why this is so fascinating for me: my years in manufacturing (and thus its implications) or my years in Legal IT (go IP team!). In any event, excellent breakdown. :)

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Thanks man!

@Henning_Rech

4 ай бұрын

So you can perhaps explain to me which sense it makes to patent a method of production of a certain chemical? - your competitor can use the same method, and as long as you cannot prove from the characteristics of the final product leaving its factory that it has been produced with the patented method, there is no protection of your IP.

13:40 Proper testing seems to me you would want to test for 5500 cycles -15 years. Value customers will want 20 years 7500 cycles.

thank you

Thanks for another awesome video. Still looking at Novonix at all? They hold the anode production patents that would fit nicely into your chart. Odd Tesla has been quiet on anode.

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

In a video in about a month or two

@dimitrychekov1136

3 ай бұрын

@@thelimitingfactor 👀 Novonix + Panasonic ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤

If DPO mostly benefits high-nickel lithium batteries, then another reason battery manufacturers aren't rushing to bulk-order DPO could simply be that most battery orders are shifting to LFP and sodium-ion which contain little to no nickel. DPO patents may have missed their opportunity window.

@snookmeister55

4 ай бұрын

Sodium Ion is now in one brand, one country.

@teardowndan5364

4 ай бұрын

@@snookmeister55 Maybe in the EV space for now. In the datacenter and grid storage spaces, there is Faradion in the UK, Natron in the USA, Northvolt in Sweden and likely many more elsewhere.

@suunraze

4 ай бұрын

I think there is still going to be very high demand for lithium-nickel due to higher energy density. For long-range vehicles, trucks, and certainly aircraft

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Nah, we need all the chemistries. Each has strengths and weaknesses

@teardowndan5364

4 ай бұрын

@@suunraze Heaps of research is going into solid-state batteries right now. If those ever become available at scale, they will likely make NMC and NCA obsolete.

Ah yes the Dr Jeckyl and Mr Hyde problem , great video , it's nice to see Tesla going back to basics and checking every aspect

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Thanks for the kind words!

Likely will go into semi first for testing

I was getting really excited about this and then my mate turned around and said, "Ten years from now we'll wonder what all the fuss was about since PDO is so old hat." Thanks mate. 😂😂😂😂

Jordan, Speaking of battery chemistry do you know what the battery chemistry or the cycle life is for the 4680 first gen, the one that was used in the Model Y (currently what I drive now)? I used to drive a 2020 M3P with the 2170 cells and the 4680 Model Y that I drive now is waaay more efficient, didn't know if that had to do with battery chemistry, the heat pump currently installed or the hairpin motors that they use now any insight would help. Thx😎

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

NMC811, but I'm not sure about the cycle life. I was hoping to get that data but it never eventuated. It'll be the heatpump that increases the efficiency 💯

Do you have links to the articles? I did some quick googling but most of what I saw was from 2019. I should be able to find the research papers at the library, but I’m not sure where to find the actual patent info. (this is a student ran KZread page. Organic synthesis fascinates me and I want to talk to my organic professor about the synthesis 😅)

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/2.0341813jes dalspace.library.dal.ca/bitstream/handle/10222/81232/NSIS_v50_2_373_Hynes.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/1945-7111/ab8ed6/pdf iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/1945-7111/ac6831

Incrível documentário grata de poder assistir e conhecimento e vida nos liberta

A million mile is huge number. 1 000 000 miles / 60 years /365 days = 45, 6 miles a day (72,4 km) . It would be amazing if something like that ever exists.

@waynerussell6401

4 ай бұрын

Dahn has 4 million kilometer batteries. CATL has million mile LFP. BYD has million kilometer LFP. kzread.info/dash/bejne/pIN1u8ycf5nRkdI.html

@hamjudo

4 ай бұрын

I worked on the software for vehicle data loggers. One of the customers was a major manufacturer of truck components. They did a long term test which included driving ten diesel trucks a million miles each. It took less than 3 years. They swapped drivers every 8 hours. The drivers didn't work around the clock, but the trucks did. The trucks hauled freight when it was compatible with the test plan. The rest of the time they hauled large concrete blocks. It takes less than 2 years to drive a million miles on a test track at highway speeds. It takes longer on roads with traffic, and with cargo that has to get loaded and unloaded on someone else's schedule.

@waynerussell6401

4 ай бұрын

​@@mitchellcouchman6589 Not if temperature and SOC controlled. Hence the well known problems of charging above 90% and leaving it there for extended time. Over many years of tracking older Tesla batteries. the Dutch/Belgium data bank shows ~ 5% degradation within the first 50k miles and 1% thereafter. US Bureau of Transportation Statistics 2021, 52% of all trips, including all modes of transportation, were less than three miles, with 28% of trips less than one mile. Just 2% of all trips were greater than 50 miles, and 1% over 70 miles. Thats why urban BEV like MiEV, i3, Mini, Leaf, e-Up and all the Asian sub compacts have tiny batteries, and old used BEVs are sort after well below 80% degradation!

@waynerussell6401

4 ай бұрын

@@mitchellcouchman6589 teslamotorsclub docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/t024bMoRiDPIDialGnuKPsg/edit#gid=826479810 Google any study of average car trip. Average ICE car does 133k miles in its short life. Less than 1% reach 200k (Road&Track 6 Dec 2022). Low bar to beat. Especially maintenance free. Tesla have long ago tested 500,000 miles at over 80% of its original capacity on old 1860 packs. They found reliability so high that modules have now been dropped. Since then both chemistry and manufacturing have improved, whilst prices dropped. The Dutch/Belgium data shows fast charging has not affected performance and recently Recurrent Auto found similar. Heat and SOC are the only watch points and Tesla heat pump and pack construction is the best. Dahn shows that an urban pack cycled between 20 and 70% will last indefinitely. Choosing NZ as a source for searching used BEVs is obscure. A very small sample of ex Japanese Leafs?! They still fetch $20000 despite having the wrong chemistry and no temperature controls! "Over the last 12 months, the Nissan Leaf has been listed 6,034 times by sellers on Trade Me, with a median price of $19,851" kzread.info/dash/bejne/pIN1u8ycf5nRkdI.html

i was disapointed when the cybertruck didnt come with a million mile warranty. still keeping my erly reservation though :)

What I would like to see is a tesla battery chemistry in smartphones. I can imagine it would result in longer lasting batteries even without the improvements talked about in the video. However, I don't know if the capacity would be negatively affected.

You’re a freakin’ genius…so logical 😊

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Ha! thanks 😁

@willm5814

4 ай бұрын

@@thelimitingfactor I’m an old Mechanical engineer - I now code/own a software business - your attention to detail is impressive. To be open and honest, what I really care about is making the world a better place for generations to come.

PDA can result in a longer lasting bond provided it's applied by the right partner. 🙃

@jhps1000

4 ай бұрын

Lol

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

🤣

From what you said, it sounds like it might reduce the actual output of the battery though. So increased cycles but decreased charge held and therefore increased discharge rate. Is this correct?

@thelimitingfactor

3 ай бұрын

I'm not sure I'm picking up what you're putting down. Changing the additive wouldn't change the output of the battery. That is, there shouldn't be any drawbacks to improved cycle life

Gordon, do you have any insights into Geely's Golden Battery and how it impacts the industry?

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Just another incremental improvement.

@DanielASchaeffer

4 ай бұрын

What up and coming battery tech worries you the most (from a perspective of harming TSLA?@@thelimitingfactor

The chemical is selective catalytic oxygen ion transporter. It helps prevent oxygen from leaving the cathode material and destabilizing the electrolyte.

Ah, now i get it!

I live in a flat with power points that deliver 220-240 volts at 10 amps. So I could charge at 2 kW but what would it take to have a device that could be plugged into two completely separate power points (i.e not both on the same double outlet) and combine the current to deliver 4 kW ? Because charging at 4 kW overnight for 10-12 hours really makes a big difference over 2kW.

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Definitely not my area of expertise. I've seen devices that combine 2x 120v to make 240v, but nothing to double current. The solution in my house was to do a double breaker. But, it sounds like you're in a country with a different wiring setup... So you'd have to consult an electrician or a KZread channel from that country.

I like that you referred to your 'Twitter subscribers' in the beginning. 😆 Yeah, Tesla does cool battery chemistry but the petulant man boy can GFY. Thanks for sharing this interesting research. The Canadians have a lot at stake given their abundance of nickel

I KNEW I SHOULD NOT HAVE DROPPED OUT OF SCHOOL IN GR. 8. CRAP !!!!

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

🤣

Ok, so if Tesla is further improving Battery Life and maximum cycles per lifetime, When will they provide Vehicle to Grid with their cars?

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Cybertruck does vehicle to home. Not sure about the grid tie in, but the equipment is there now.

Regarding patent protection... I think it's most likely Tesla will develop described technology, then open source it for the rest of the industry and world. Tesla's mission is to convert the world to renewable energies, not make as much money as possible. Also, Elon Musk described patents as a ticket for lawsuits.

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Yeah, it's a ticket to lawsuits if you decide to enforce them against others. But, a ticket away from lawsuits if you're just trying to get permission to use a technology and not trying to block other people from using it.

@pyotrberia9741

4 ай бұрын

Tesla's patents have not been "open sourced". They are made available to any company willing to sign up to the "Tesla Patent Pledge". This is a contract which guarantees that no serious competitor will be able to use Tesla's patents because they would lose the right to sue Tesla for any intellectual property violations. If Elon was honest he would "opensource Tesla's patents to the World" with no strings attached.

@christopherleubner6633

4 ай бұрын

All you have to do is tweak the molecule slightly to evade patents on stuff like this. An example is using a halogen and noble gas filling on tungsten halogen bulbs. Using xenon and iodine works the best but xenon and bromine work as do krypton and iodine or krypton and bromine. You get a brighter bulb with an extended blue and UV spectrum that has 5 times the life expectancy of a xenon filled incandescent and 3 times that of halogen while giving a purer white light. When doing a patent, you want to cover a process that absolutely requires something specific that is difficult to create analogs of. A good example is the method of growing GaN crystals on C axis synthetic sapphire. 😮

@MichaelLloydMobile

4 ай бұрын

@@pyotrberia9741 Sorry, I don't think it's unethical to want to avoid lawsuits.

Do we know for sure Tesla are not already using these chemicals? I have long expected the Cybertruck to have a million mile battery pack, especially given the design of the truck and pack that makes servicing the pack basically impossible and I am not sure how readily one might replace it either.

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

No way to know until we get data. Even a teardown and chemical analysis won't show the additives because they get reacted on the first cycle.

@peglor

4 ай бұрын

Tesla have a long history, even from before Musk took it over and claimed he founded it, of having little to no interest in the serviceability and maintainability of their vehicles, so the Cybertruck is just continuing the same attitude. Anyone who watched the Munro Live teardown of the structural battery on the Model Y and laughed at the mental gymnastics they had to go through in the conclusions to claim it was anything more than saving money for Tesla by passing all the cost onto whoever owns the car when the warranty runs out knows full well that Tesla don't care at all about making expensive landfill once they get their money. Incidentally, the official process to recycle the structural batteries (Which I don't think anyone is actually doing commercially because it's not even slightly economical) is to freeze the entire battery pack in liquid nitrogen, grind it into powder and then use the same multi step flotation process used to refine ore to separate out the raw materials. There is no sensible argument that doing that instead of just replacing the small number of bad cells that bring the whole battery pack down and carrying on with mostly the same battery pack is good for the environment or consumers.

@kennyg1358

4 ай бұрын

Your very first sentence is factually incorrect. Try harder

@kennyg1358

4 ай бұрын

Your very first sentence is factually incorrect. Try harder

@6681096

4 ай бұрын

​​@@peglora judge rule that Musk was one of the founders. He arrived about a year after Tesla Incorporated. They had zero products, little money and nothing in the pipeline.

For all these cycling experiments the voltage limits are very important.....there is one with 4.3V one with 4.2V then there was 4.06V etc. etc. Electrolyte degradation is highly depending on the upper voltage limit. Maybe it is a bit unfair against the VC reference when 4.3V are used but only 4.2V in the application.

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Yeah, they're taking that into account. I didn't want to get into the weeds. This was complex enough.

Will a battery containing PDO have a faster charging time?

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Probably not. Need a different anode material, faster charging equipment, better thermal management

@klauszinser

4 ай бұрын

@@thelimitingfactor Not sure if it was already asked. Li-Ion is more dangerous than LiFePO4 and newer materials. If you can keen an eye on this Jordan, it would be good. It's very fascinating - similar to solar panels etc - how quality can improve and prices can go down when such a technology becomes that important.

@waynerussell6401

4 ай бұрын

@@klauszinser LFP is LiIon!

@schussenfilz878

4 ай бұрын

@@waynerussell6401 Li-Ion is normally not with Fe as component. As i looked up Wikipedia it seems even LiFePO4 can be called Li-ion. In general i am used to one class of batteries (1) called LifePO4 which have a max voltage of 3.65V and (2) the others which where mainly called Li-Ion (and could have different materials but went up to max 4.1..4.2V. when fully charged. But it could be correct to have the LiFePO4 also as Li-Ion.

Interesting the cycle life they got even with extreme SOC cycling. 4.3V is higher than EV packs charge and would negatively impact cycle life. A normal 4.2V max charge would exhibit substantially higher cycle counts.

@kazedcat

4 ай бұрын

They are doing aggressive cycling to fail early because testing with mild cycling would take decades for the research to complete.

@JRP3

4 ай бұрын

@@kazedcat Yes, I know, the point was they got good cycle life even with the aggressive cycling.

What C rate is cycle life done at?

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

I showed everything on screen

Seems like this is something that AI could evaluate really fast to find more ideal recipes.

Electrolyte additive optimzation is something that is much more complicated than what is typically seen in academia. There are only a few companies worldwide that are able to develop electrolytes which satistfy alll the requirements for a vehicle, like fast charging and discharging, able to start with a colder temperature, not too expensive, having a good enough safety to pass relevant tests and cycle life. If you only had cycle life ofcourse you could get a much longer cycle life, but that is too simple of a view.

A question I have is that if we have million mile batteries why doesn't Tesla give us a 500,000 battery warranty? As I own a significant amount of TSLA I feel somewhat surprised I don't already know the answer. To me it would seem like a great selling feature and eliminate a soyrce of worry for my customers.

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Because the million mile batteries haven't gone into vehicles yet. They're a little more expensive and everything is about cost down at the moment. LFP does pretty well, but at a certain point, you have to start looking at warranty cost in terms of calender life, etc. and how much additional value it adds to customers for what it costs Tesla.

How does Tesla end up being able to patent this work? Does Tesla fund their lab?

@martylawson1638

4 ай бұрын

Most likely Tesla did provide the funding. It pretty common for industry to provide universities with funding grants for research and training. In those cases, the funding source then gets to set the IP policy.

@jd30064

4 ай бұрын

Yes, funded. Research Partner to Tesla.

@morninboy

4 ай бұрын

If one is doing work for a company inventing things the patent gets assigned to the company. An improvement to a patent extends the life of the patent from the date of issued improvement.

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Oh sorry! Good point, yes. They do.

@klauszinser

4 ай бұрын

@@morninboy Extend the life? Partially. Because often you need to keep both patents alive in all the relevant countries. (Higher Patent fees). I think Tesla patent strategy is less on keeping competitors away and more on being able that no Patent trolls intervene their manufacturing investments and processes.

👍👍

Extending cycle life is great "But" what's just as important is power density. We really need at least 10x more than Li-ion can currently produce especially in automotive applications and even more so in aircraft. The power density [size/weight] of fossil fuels is hard to beat even more that Innerspace travel. [EM - "Space is hard"]

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

No, you want power density for tech porn. That's not what's needed. 😁 Currently, energy and power density are ample, that's why manufacturers are trading power and energy density for cheaper batteries like LFP.

@DrHarryT

4 ай бұрын

@@thelimitingfactor I'm considering the push for EV's and the range really sucks, For aircraft it's only ok for trainers.

This could be why the Cybertruck uses Stainless Steel--the body of the truck will last as long as the battery. Or the next gen vehicle will be Stainless and have "Million Mile" batteries. Making EV's that cost less and last much longer than ICE vehicles is a good way to accelerate the transition to sustainable energy (Tesla's Mission).

I thought Tesla didn't enforce their patents?

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

That's not why they're patenting it. It's to allow them to use the technology. If someone else get's the patent they can block Tesla's use. And, Tesla does enforce their patents if someone uses the patent maliciously - read their blog post.

Yeah, Tesla has a patent for a solar tonneau cover for the Cybertruck too. They like having random patents for things they don't produce.

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

And also patents for things they do produce, like the cyberdoor structure

@sftwr314r8

4 ай бұрын

@@jeremytaylor3532 How do you figure 2-3 miles per day when Elon and others have said up to 15 miles per day for solar tonneau? I drive 60 miles per week for most of the year, so 15 miles a day would have me fully charged for all but road trips. Even if it was 3 miles per day, it could easily be x5 with fold out panels (4 fold out with stationary center), which would then get you to 15 miles per day. Or at the very least, direct solar charging from external panels, a ton of which would fit in the bed. Not charging fast enough? Add more panels.

@sftwr314r8

4 ай бұрын

@@jeremytaylor3532 Worst case scenario with solar tonneau at 2 miles per day: you forgot to charge before driving to the airport for a two week trip and arrive at the airport with 10% battery left. Long term park in the sun; sentry mode, climate control, etc continue to work and you return two weeks later to an extra 28 miles of range, enough to get you back home to fully charge. Otherwise you return to a dead vehicle.

Aren't automotive battery people moving away from tri-metal Li batteries and moving to phosphate? (..and, for that matter, sodium)

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

That's not how it works You use the right tool for the job, so you need different tools

@mb-3faze

4 ай бұрын

@@thelimitingfactor Much commercial BESS is now Lithium Phosphate. Even my home batteries are LiFePo. Still, high end car models are opting for NMC for the energy and power density advantages - electric aviation also want the best ratios. So, yes, still relevant, as you say. Still, all research is good and maybe this doping will benefit different chemistries as well. I guess we'll find out in 4 more years as the patent process grinds its way to completion! Thanks for the video - I didn't realize just how much work was going into incremental (and not so incremental) improvements.

Will this solve the fire issues with Lithium batteries? If not we still don't have a viable EV car.

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Battery powered vehicles are safer than internal combustion vehicles. That's because they contain more energy and it's more rapidly combustible.

Talon/TLOFF to the moon!!! lol

@anthonylosego

4 ай бұрын

...in 2028...lol

No point though on old Tech that is a fire risk . Solid state batteries will get that far and available in 2027

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Solid state is too expensive. It won't become the dominant technology until the mid 2030s

David S. Hall... probably not the best spelling for the name 😋

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

David S. Pumpkins? 😁

Lol, inventor David S. Hall. Dont even try to read it out loud

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

😂

Uh oh. Now it's time to get an organic chemistry graduate degree to go with your materials chemistry one. 😂

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

LOL! 🤣 Hi Finlay

@Finlaymacnab

4 ай бұрын

@@thelimitingfactor The chemistry of PDO reminds me of the chemistry of Ionomr Innovations' technology. They just raised 20 million ;)

We really need small fusion reactors, not batteries.

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

We need both. There's no such thing as the perfect technology.

Sometimes we get so focused on Tesla. How many different chemistries CATL, BYD...others are developing? CATL just announced the Huang (King) with 500 wh/kg, ramping.

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Not sure who the "We" is here. I'm snowed under in terms of workload. I've said a number of times that someone should cover those companies. People don't because it's brutally hard. I follow them closely but I have to perform triage because I struggle just to keep up with Tesla. As for the 500 Wh/kg battery. Dahn's lab has similar, but Tesla doesn't pursue it because it's a vanity project. Those batteries will be prohibitively expensive and will be difficult to scale. It's all about scale and cost! When Tesla decides to do an evtol, then they'll do a 500 Wh/kg battery. CATL caters to anyone who wants batteries, Tesla builds batteries for their projects (and still needs more as evidenced by the semi delays)

long life batteries = good but not as good as extending the battery DURATION. A 600 mile battery would be a game changer

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

They can already do that, but don't because 90% of won't use it.... As evidenced by the ratio of people ordering the extended range battery in the Cybertruck.

@danielstapler4315

4 ай бұрын

I do think that longer range batteries would help lower the pressure on the road trip charger network. These chargers are expensive to build and maintain and its more economic to have car buyers pay for the car batteries. Also a long range battery would be better suited for V2G, V2H and V2L and I think the batteries would have a longer life as each individual cell has less work to do relatively..

You dont need clickbait thumbnails . The million mile battery was never made. It would have been loaded with Colbalt

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Not sure what you mean buy clickbait thumbnail. It's a video about Tesla's PDO Patent. Were the colors clickbait? Do you have a fuschia, white, and periwinkle fetish? 😁

@FrunkensteinVonZipperneck

4 ай бұрын

Cobalt is a town in Ontario near my revivifier’s birthplace- Timmins. Timmins High graduates include Nobel, Olympic, and Grammy Award winners.

@waynerussell6401

4 ай бұрын

NMC532. 50% nickel, 30% manganese, and 20% cobolt...

The mission is open source progress…….right ?.

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Yup, not sure you're asking. Patents are required so other people don't block Tesla's use of a patent. That's the inverse of getting them to block other people.

@davidpearn5925

4 ай бұрын

@@thelimitingfactor tesla is definitely proving daily that it is an energy company and certainly not an auto manufacturer that can survive without government intervention. Lot of talk and minimal relevant product. Not understanding non-NA market demands and customer expectations is insane behaviour from an occasional CEO who has other, less boring , interests . I can’t update because mine has stalks that my partner needs so we are forced into Chinese territory. How dumb is that !.

Sandy Munro set our expectations too high with his "change at the speed of thought" video. I agree with his line of reasoning, but I think some people then saw your battery videos, and began to expect "improved 4680 cells" as early as last year. When it seems like Tesla may well not really have a truly new chemistry until 2025 or later. I hope they're working on range (energy density) which is what Cybertruck needs. Too many variables. In the end, Tesla could simply average out the performance upgrades to produce the same energy per cell more cheaply.

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

No one has a truly new chemistry coming onto the market. So, I don't understand the expectation here. Maybe you mean higher performance than anything else on the market? Well, that depends on how you define performance. You aren't going to get something that's 500 Wh/kg and also low cost.

Until lithium batteries can be made safe , they should not be able to insure a vehicle containing them .

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

If your bar for safety is that high, they all vehicles should be removed from the road. No movement, no energy, no risk

@philliplopez8745

4 ай бұрын

@@thelimitingfactor typically vehicles do not burst into flames and burn your house down at midnight .

At 07:10 You say '6 times better than...' and '3 times better than...' Surely you meant to say '5 times better than...' and '2 times better than...'? Or maybe '6 times as well as...' and '3 times as well as...'? When you think about the Maths, 6 times better than 200 cycles is 1400 cycles, and 3 times better than 400 cycles is 1600 cycles.

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

I'm not sure what strange math you're using, lol

I'm skeptical about this. I mean even the million miles battery technology from years ago doesn't seem to be implemented yet. There are several battery packs out there that failed after 130-150k miles and 1.5 years. Now granted those packs were Supercharged daily exclusively, but that's exactly a Robotaxi scenario. You can't have a pack fail so early during commercial operations. It doesn't make economic sense.

@tesla_tap

4 ай бұрын

Most battery pack failures are not from degraded cells, but water ingress, and/or electronic failures (at least early packs). The pack design has continuously gotten better to greatly reduce these problem areas. I'm not saying packs will last 1 million miles, but finding a pack that has degraded below 70% due to all the cells degrading (i.e. no outright failures of modules or electronics) is almost unhead of.

@tribalypredisposed

4 ай бұрын

Lots of ICE cars need a new transmission and engine after 130,000 miles. Tesla will get this implemented, if not already, when they have it ready.

@rogerstarkey5390

4 ай бұрын

You seem generally sceptical about everything, judging by your previous comments?

@snookmeister55

4 ай бұрын

All products have failures.

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Pretty cool stuff!

Don't give me :”it may take two years”, everyone knows that tesla will do it next year….always!

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Correct, they make the impossible merely late... But they always get there

Cobalt much?

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Not sure what you mean. The whole point of this electrolyte additive is that it works better with high nickel blends.

@waynerussell6401

4 ай бұрын

@@thelimitingfactor The million-mile coin cells were NMC532. A composition of 50% nickel, 30% manganese, and 20% cobalt - LiNi0.5Mn0.3Co0.2O2. "A Wide Range of Testing Results on an Excellent Lithium-Ion Cell Chemistry to be used as Benchmarks for New Battery Technologies" Set 5 2019 JES.

Tesla just quietly decreased the max range of all models.... Guess why? They lost a lawsuit, they lied about it .... Have fun

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

Thanks for commenting, it boosts the channel.

Didn’t Elon say, “patents are for the weak?” 😂😂😂

@bobwallace9753

4 ай бұрын

A company has to file defensive patents. If they discover something and don't patent it then someone else can take out a patent and prohibit the discoverer from using their own discovery.

@thelimitingfactor

4 ай бұрын

BINGO bob. And for some reason the people who always bring this up never bothered to read Tesla's blog post on the topic. They take the soundbite and flagellate to it.

@philippelupien7109

4 ай бұрын

History teaches us that you have to file for patents before somebody else does it instead of you and sometimes that somebody wlll be an employee. This is why RCA Victor had to leave the US and establish itself in Canada.

@Beatles4Sale.

4 ай бұрын

Guys, it was a joke…ugh…too serious people!

@FrunkensteinVonZipperneck

4 ай бұрын

“patents for the week.” Like “fish of the day,” eh?