That was suer helpful, thank you. Agree pretty much with most of your pics! Helped me think through my game a bit cos we play this a lot!

I played a game with head start on TTS and can't believe I didn't realise that it combos with other preludes that draw cards at the beginning.

When you play with Colonies, increasing power production becomes more important as it seems the easiest way to trade (cheaper than 9 Mc or 3 titanium). For this reason, Society Support becomes more useful as there's an early race to get to 3 Power production. This is also why I would put Power Generation as an S card, as you can start trading from the 2nd gen.

@marsexpert4276

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, as I said in the video: Power Generation is the best prelude in the game if you're playing with colonies. Definitely S tier. However, this tier list mainly focusses on base game + preludes and there, it can't compete with some of the other top tier preludes. Of course there are still scenarios where it's amazing. And regarding Society Support: I still wouldn't pick it. You cannot rate it in a vacuum. Of course, the value of power prod goes up with Colonies, but that's only a small part of this prelude and you still have to compare it to your other options. In 99% of cases those other preludes will still be better.

@buttlesschap

3 ай бұрын

My first colonies game (a week ago) I got helion with a choice of experimental forest, society support, loan and sponsor. The only initial card I had above 20MC was AI Central so I picked forest and society support. It turned out okay cause I got really lucky with science tags early. Lost by 2 points in a 4p game to a dream Phobolog play.

I think that ecology expert should be in a tear of its own, and straight up unbreakable. It just varies so much in power that is the stealing to score unimaginable massive points. I’ve played a game with the Viron corporation and livestock where I have scored like 90 points. But most of the time it is useless.

Galilean F tier is definitely harsh. B tier makes more sense as it can be good with some corporations and depending on your cards in your starting hand.

@marsexpert4276

8 ай бұрын

Was a bit harsh I agree, but au wouldn't really go above C tier...

@Hardtekkgasse

5 ай бұрын

Agreed, its so much relying on Jovians which makes it niche which in turn makes it a C imo

Would put wild tag and 3 cards prelude in A, wild tag is very useful and cards are just good always

@marsexpert4276

8 ай бұрын

It's close for sure! I was a big big fan of that prelude in the past and it's definitely better when playing with all expansions, since then the game is slower which favours a science strat!

@dqmark

8 ай бұрын

Cannot see a reason not to play with other expansions, personally me and my friends don’t use only Turmoil as it seems a lot of extra time.

It would be nice to make a little update to this Tier in list actualised with new promos preludes :)

@marsexpert4276

8 ай бұрын

You mean with the ones from the kickstarter campaign?

@lordbebech

8 ай бұрын

@@marsexpert4276 haha, no I am sorry I mean Merger, Head start etc. I make this comment like in the half of the vide then I realised that the new promo preludes are on the end X)

Overall good ranking, great job, but I find lack of info about players count, which also affect prelude selection. More players ofter results in less generations, so production preludes are less worthy than resources preludes.

@marsexpert4276

9 ай бұрын

That's true but there's a reason for that. I mainly (and I mean 99% of the time) play 2p or 3p, so I cannot judge these preludes perfectly for 4p or 5p. I only wanna give out tipps and tricks about stuff that I know well, but maybe I should've mentioned that at the start :)

Society support is bad but I think it can be interesting under some situations. For example, if you combine it with metals company and you have a MC production in first hand (cheung shing, sponsor, acquired company...) you can win the generalist milestone in gen 1, or it's a good economy start with all the resources anyway. On the other hand, every card that lowers the MC production is terrible with Robinson Industries, you always have to do the opposite with that corp (the power-hungry cards are very easy to play with it).

@marsexpert4276

Жыл бұрын

That situation is one niche scenario where I'd pick it, but only if my other preludes are trash. I don't want to pass on a great prelude just to claim generalist easily (which could still be an option without Society Support).

@mars4ever

Жыл бұрын

@@marsexpert4276 I'm wondering: why did the author considered this card balanced, if everyone hates it? Maybe he thinks that the 3 productions were too valuable so he wanted to compensate with an expense. But it would be probably better with -3/4 MC instead of a -1 prod, what do you think?

@marsexpert4276

Жыл бұрын

@@mars4ever the card would definitely be better with -3MC instead of the negative prod. But it would still be bad. The rebalanced version you can play on the herokuapp did exactly that but also gave the card a wild tag. With that, I think it's quite good. As to why the developer thought this is balanced? I don't have a clue. There are some cards (Underground Detonations, Society Support, Food Factory) that are just horrendous. I don't get it either.

@mars4ever

Жыл бұрын

@@marsexpert4276 we can try to do some math: how much would you spend if you wanted the same productions on gen 1 with the cards at full price? Micromills is 6, power plant is 7 (but SP is 11), adapted lichen is 12, archaebacteria is 9, so the total is about 22-29. Biosphere support has the same -1 MC prod so he consideres a plant production as valuable as energy+heat. About metals company: steel mine is 7, titanium mine is 10, "half sponsor" is 4.5, total 21.5. What do you think?

@mars4ever

Жыл бұрын

About underground detonations: the action is ok because 5 MC for a heat prod is good, the problem is obviously the cost of the card in the first place. You need to pick it or pay with a discount to make it kinda worth it. I see that industrial center is rarely used as well. But I like space mirrors because it's very frequent that you need to increase the energy production a lot of times. I had it in a game with steelworks so I could play cities, or else, and go back every time to 4 to mantain the possibility to play the action in the next gen.

Have you ever played a game in which Merger was played with a copy with 3 corps in play?

@marsexpert4276

Ай бұрын

You mean Merger + Double Down to play with 3 corps at the same time? No, I have to say I never did that. Never got so luck as to get both of them 😅

@paintingwithmartin

Ай бұрын

@@marsexpert4276 we discussed it yesterday when we played the other day and we found out that should that combo come up, even with the card that allows you to draw 3 prelude cards and play one, it might even break the game if you get a corp that has a higher starting sum than 42.

@marsexpert4276

Ай бұрын

@@paintingwithmartin how do you mean it breaks the game? Sure, it can be strong, but I don't see it as inherently gamebreaking...

@paintingwithmartin

Ай бұрын

@@marsexpert4276 I agree it can be strong and since I haven't tested it (yes of course you can script it and see how it plays out) it is hard to say. If you get say Vitor, Helion/Ecoline and Terractor you are in for an insane start. Not too short on cash and very geared up for a very versatile start.

I had an game, where I had terractor plus loan plus keep 9 cards, to go gen 1 earth catapult into weltraumfahrstuhl (costs 43 mc and grants you 3 titanium prod plus 4 points. Obviously I won that game. But sure, normaly its not so great otherwise.

@marsexpert4276

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, in that scenario Loan is quite nice. However with Donation for example you could have played just Earth Elevator to get the titanium prod and play Earth Cat in gen 2. Sure you lose out on 2MC discount on EE, but in return you don't have to suffer the hit to your MC prod. Loan was great there, but in a situation like that (where you need lots of instant money) Donation is still better in most cases.

@mcbescheiden725

Жыл бұрын

@@marsexpert4276 maybe, but in reality I of course didnt had the chance to pick loan. If I had, I guess I would have picked both for an insane start lol.

@marsexpert4276

Жыл бұрын

@@mcbescheiden725 yeah true. You had to make do with what you got dealt and in that situation Loan was great!

how is 2 titanium prod -5 gold is F tier when +6 mc prod -6 gold is A tier and 4 mc prod +3 gold is S tier? would put titanium one in A, as space cards are usually really good, and two other (with MCs) to S, as +6 prod -6 becomes better than +4prod+3 in just 3 generations.

@marsexpert4276

8 ай бұрын

Why is Allied Banks better than Business Empire? Due to the time value of money. Money NOW is more valuable than money in the future. Allied Banks can alow you to play an extra card in gen 1 instead of 2 and that can have a compounding effect on your game. Also keep in mind that Business Empire only catches up to Allied Banks in gen 6! The only situation in which I like BE more than AB is when I have wayyyy too much money for my starting cards. But why is Galilean Mining so bad? It comes down to flexibility. Obviously, if you end the game with a ton of titanium left over, then that prelude was basically worthless. But it's more than that. If you don't draw you space tags early enough, it becomes a question of timing again. If that production was MC, you could have played your cards sooner, again creating a compounding effect on your game. Of course, titanium prod is better when playing with all expansions, since they include more good space cards in proportion to total deck size, but this video was mainly aimed at basegame + preludes.

Loan and Society Support are the only preludes that I never pick. Recently picked Galilean Mining as Valley Trust cause I had Advanced Alloys and W.I.F.E. in starting hand. My other preludes were Supplier and Nasa Space Agency, which gave me G.I.A. and Ice asteroid. With Saturn in the game I quickly abandoned the Jov strat and went for a fast game, which I won having 76 points by gen 8 :)

@marsexpert4276

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I think there's a right situation for everything except Society Support. In your situation, Galilean Mining definitely paid off :D

@marsuniversity-tm

Жыл бұрын

@@marsexpert4276 Trying really hard to play devil's advocate here cause i truly hate society support, but what if you are helion and have Electro Catapult in hand? would that be the best scenario for society support?

@marsexpert4276

Жыл бұрын

@@marsuniversity-tm I still wouldn't pick it. if the other two choices were loan and a Eco Experts without a target maybeee...

@marsuniversity-tm

Жыл бұрын

@@marsexpert4276 or excentric sponsor without a target. Glad we could find a use for it XD

@marsexpert4276

Жыл бұрын

@@marsuniversity-tm hahaha yeah

Am surprised...I actually thought you would rate Galilean mining too high but turns out the other way. I think F is a bit cruel. Compare to business empire which is 6 MC prod and lose 6 MC. Galilean mining gives 6 value worth of titanium for -5 MC. Yes titanium is much less flexible and arguably the earth tag can be better but I think we are underestimating the value of titanium. Whether you are going engine or rush...you're likely to play a space event or some form of space comboas many of them are the best cards in the game. Compared to what was in C tier and B tier, personally I'd put galilean around B-/C+. Definitely not my top choice but being on the same tier as society support is a bit too low.

@marsexpert4276

Жыл бұрын

It's not in the same tier as Society Support! That one has a tier for itself :D But yeah, Galilean Mining can be placed in C as well. F was a bit harsh.

How is 2 oxygen and 5 steel C and 3 temperature -5mc S tier? 15 mc difference is worse than 1 tr?

@marsexpert4276

8 ай бұрын

Huge Asteroid is the best prelude for a rush strat due a few reasons: 1. There are more heat bumps than oxygen bumps or oceans, so any help you get on that track is appreciated. 2. Many really good plant producers get unlocked on the heat track and you will need these to rush the oxygen as well. 3. You also get a heat prod immediately, which further reinforces points 1 and 2. And there are some specific reasons why I like it more than Smelting Plant: increasing oxygen mainly happens by placing greeneries, which is a big part of a rush strat and yields many points on the boards in addition to the terraforming points. You won't get these board points (or any rebates) from Smelting Plant of course. Increasing heat on the other hand just grants you those TR points, which you also get from Huge Asteroid. I hope this gets my point across, but in the end, it also comes down to preference and gamestyle, so if you like Smelting Plant, pick it :)

@dqmark

8 ай бұрын

Agree on rush strat part, but it’s pretty good just as it is too, so without rush strat Plant seems to be at least same at the same tier

I had a chat with anthracite and he said that Ecology Expert should not be played with Livestock. Its just bad.

@marsexpert4276

Жыл бұрын

In my imagination I like this play, but I've actually never done it, since it's so rare that you draw it together. But yeah, maybe it's actually a bad play...

@shervinasgari6314

Жыл бұрын

@@marsexpert4276 I have done it twice, and lost both games :D

@mars4ever

Жыл бұрын

That happened to a friend of mine a couple of weeks ago in a 5p game: he won by more than 20 VP on the 2nd, ending with more than 12 animals on that card (he played also great convoy).

@tim..indeed

Жыл бұрын

It's spending a prelude and 20M for 2M production and ~10VP at the end of the game. It's almost impossible to evaluate but probably indeed not worth it.

@mars4ever

Жыл бұрын

@@tim..indeed Something happened to me even more challenging just two days ago: I had in my first choice: Ecoline, ecology experts and birds. Even if I was the last to play among 3, there was no chance that an opponent could get 2 plant production, so I decided took the risk and lower two levels myself and play it! I said: it's a game, let's try something unusual and have fun, at least I'll know if it's a good idea or not. My first 4-5 gens on 10 were very slow, and my opponents also lowered me another plant and an energy production, but eventually I won anyway! My conclusion: it's very risky to do this with birds, I won't try it again in case I get the same chance, and I wouldn't be that lucky against stronger opponents, but with livestock or birds it's a win for sure. It's like spending 10 plants for 10 VP (and with birds you may attack an opponent, it's an immediate table flip if that happens!), compared to 8 plants for a greenery there's no way to find something more powerful.

Yesterday I picked Society Support in 3p game and won. So I consider this video absolutely useless /s Also, I have a question. If someone is playing Ecoline or got a plant prod from preludes, can I play Ecology Experts then Birds and immediately remove their plant prod?

@marsexpert4276

Жыл бұрын

Hahaha, I consider that a great achievement! And yes, you can...if you want them to flip the table or punch their pc.

@ambowombe

Жыл бұрын

Yes, you can do it. However, remember that you reveal your corporations AFTER everyone has chosen corproation and preludes. This is essentially a shot in the dark: if there is no double plant production in play (an opponent might do this by choosing plant production preludes too) you must A) choose another card that has a global requirement or B) default to 15 MC. Personally, I think the scheme does not worth it. If I have a strong Ecology Experts target, I'd not choose to backstab an opponent over helping my plant engine. If I don't have such card I'd not risk wasting a prelude. And lets not forget the psychological factor. If you execute this, thats great, but the result might be an instant table flip, a game-long vengeful scheming by your opponent or the inglorious end of a beautiful frienship :) In addition this Gen1 Birds will be a visible VP-generator that invites all the bad things against you by your other opponents at the table (asteroids, production reducings etc.)

@marsuniversity-tm

Жыл бұрын

I had someone do this to me. He had kelp farming and was planning to play it, he had kept birds too, then he saw me play ecoline and it was like christmas came early. game lasted like 11 or 12 gens cause i couldn't rush as well so birds got him 12 points and -24 plants for me or 3 greeneries. But really we both new it was over in gen 1, most devastating play i can think of

@mars4ever

Жыл бұрын

@@ambowombe who says that you can play ecology experts with only cards with global requirements? If you can ignore them, you can play any card even with no requirements, it's just wasted and you get only the plant production.