You can make a better monk by taking a dragonborn (FROM THE SAME BOOK) and giving it the fighter subclass with unarmed fighting style

@lanceward5904

11 ай бұрын

Wow….that’s so depressing…

@loselot6044

9 ай бұрын

Yeah... I learned that the hard way...

@user-mu8ok5xf8d

27 күн бұрын

You just take the feat to get that fighting style and switch out the fighting style at higher levels

I 100% agree with equalizing the Monk sub-classes power. I've been playing a Twilight Cleric for a while now, and the only time our DM has been able to hurt us was the one session I missed. I've pretty much rendered our Rogue/Paladin unkillable, and I turn our wizard into a 100 some hp behemoth. Why is the Cleric allowed to be such a broken pile of shit, but the Monk can't even get a decent fly speed?

@9catsinatrenchcoat310

2 жыл бұрын

I would argue a DM will have a much better time balancing encounters around party-wide buffs (especially defensive ones) than a single character having more offensive power than the rest of the party. The Twilight Domain character doesn't make the rest of the party feel useless in comparison, it just enhances the party's existing strength. In comparison, a single player markedly stronger than the rest of the party can make the encounters go in two ways: challenge the single player and massacre the rest of the party, or don't challenge the single player and let them dominate every encounter. While I agree that the Monk sub-classes definitely need a buff, comparing them to the Twilight Domain cleric is an unfair comparison.

@Raoul9753

2 жыл бұрын

The Monk is a pure Martial Class. WotC hates pure Martial Classes.

@brickman9133

2 жыл бұрын

I find it funny that the way of Mercy Monk gets to give out the debilitating Poisoned condition once per turn but the fucking Dragon Monk gets to jump far kinda and gets a really shitty breath weapon.

@Darkprosper

2 жыл бұрын

To be fair, Twilight Cleric is one of the, if not the, strongest characters you can make in D&D at the moment. Some of the gap that you see is just how OP it is. Not all of it though. Monk subclasses definitely need help, but to have an idea of how much, you should compare them to a middle of the pack subclass.

@bastienmillecam3183

2 жыл бұрын

Cleric is quite a strong class but in your case the problem is Twilight Cleric specifically. It and Peace are disgusting

Its interesting that in the Unearthed Arcana, the Ascendant Dragon was a lot better and the Drakewarden was a little worse and the official release reversed that

@reedster222

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah the Unearthed Arcana version for the Ascendant Dragon monk was fine, there really was no need to nerf it into oblivion the way they did....

@orwin5445

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, anyone who wants to play the ascendant dragon monk should just use the UA. Honestly even that could seen a buff and instead we got a nerf.

@havelockvetinari3032

2 жыл бұрын

@@reedster222 no, the need was because it was a monk. 5e is known as the system where monks suck, wouldn't want to have to change advertising angles.

@BeaglzRok1

2 жыл бұрын

That's a habit with Unearthed Arcana. See also UA: Class Features Variants to Tasha's where they dumpster the "feature replacement" idea almost entirely... except for the Ranger.

@toyodacanada

2 жыл бұрын

I straight up just told my players if they want to play an Ascendant Dragon monk, play the UA version lol

The breath weapon could have added the wisdom modifier to the damage. It wouldn't have made it too crazy, but would have been a nice boost to consistency.

@Trial88

2 жыл бұрын

Another option would be to have your proficiency bonus number of martial arts die in damage. It scales both in due size and number over time so there are levels where the damage spikes quite a bit. 6d10 isn’t crazy at 20th level, but it’s not a depressing class ability not worthy of your bonus action either.

@curnott6051

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, for some reason WotC have been afraid to tie anything to ability scores that isn't a Save DC with the last few source books.

@Shalakor

2 жыл бұрын

@@Trial88 Maybe another option could be Wis mod number of dice (minimum 1)? Since you're already getting proficiency number of uses, it would be a nice way to include some greater scaling and your ability score at the same time. Or Con, and have more features that make MAD investment worthwhile (though Wis makes more sense given it's a meditative connection to dragons by lore). Either way, a more damaging breath only makes sense since you are giving up an attack and, by proxy, a Stunning Strike opportunity. (Honestly, the reverse: Wis number of free uses and Proficiency number of dice makes the most sense, but since the dice improve over time anyway, early investment in Wis to get more dice feels like a more satisfying way to put a build decision into the equation.) I think the flying speed, at the bare minimum, should last until your next turn, so that you can stay aloft, with the option to maintain it if you use Step of the Wind again, so you have the option for sustained flight when you really need it, even if it's mostly just an advanced jump otherwise. Then again, one homebrew I've been considering recently is making Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind 1 minute duration effects (still tied to bonus action economy), with appropriate adjustments to subclasses that play off of them. Seriously, though, what in the world did they see in playtesting that made them want to nerf the dragon monk from the UA?!??? It was in no way overpowered. Long Death already had a True Strike level of usefulness fear effect, so why repeat that? Astral self gets Ascendant Dragon's main area burst capabilities as a side effect of just turning its features on. ...Maybe Aspect of the Wyrm, in either of its iterations, could have been tied to using Patient Defense? Honestly, all Monk subclasses should try to tie as many features as they can to base class features, since that's what most all of the handy ones already do.

@Trial88

2 жыл бұрын

@@Shalakor wis mod number of dice would definitely increase its power earlier. Which admittedly is where most of play time will be in the game. I definitely don’t think it should be con. As it pertains to the flying ability. I don’t think the monk needs flight and just having a really cool jump works. I’d prefer it if it actually was real flight, but I think they didn’t want that because then it trivializes the already mostly ribbon features the monk class offers as a whole. Instead of flight they should’ve offered a defensive ability that raises ac like the hardening of a dragons scales. Kensei gets this when using their weapon so allowing you to do this while making an elemental unarmed strike seems appropriate. I still believe the elemental damage should be *added* to your unarmed strikes instead of replacing it.

@Trial88

2 жыл бұрын

@@Shalakor oh and I don’t ever read UA for this reason. I don’t want to be disappointed in what could have been. This is the monk I love the most even though it is one of the worst monks mechanically. I’ll figure out ways to make my Ascendent dragon work well enough to have fun in combat while he is basically Johnny Lawrence mixed with Liu Kang

something i see everyone forget to mention is the drakes infused strikes reaction, once per turn you can give someone and extra 1d6 damage when they hit a creature. it’s not much but the ability to do it consistently really makes it a great ability

@adameves5970

2 жыл бұрын

They mention it. You missed it.

@loganwilliams8892

2 жыл бұрын

@@adameves5970 i totally must have haha, i saw them talk about the infused strike on the drakes own attacks but not that it extends to someone within 30 ft of them as a reaction! i was a little tired when i watched though so apologies!

@xcalixus

2 жыл бұрын

*As an reaction* it is not even good

@loganwilliams8892

2 жыл бұрын

@@xcalixus i’d argue for a pet it’s pretty useful, since it goes after you if you save it for your attacks it’s an extra 1d6 damage per round for free. and if you go down it’s still open for other party members, with that strategy it can still take opportunity attacks when it can. I’d argue that the extra damage closes the gap between the drakewarden and beastmaster. in my own experience with it it’s been something i use every round consistently and it helps with damage output. i’d also never get upset at extra damage for essentially free.

@Past0rM4n

2 жыл бұрын

They did, briefly, mention it at the beginning of the Drakewarden section.

Honestly, when we look at the worst monk subclasses, there is exactly one thing they seem to all have in common. The ideal turn for a basic monk is to run up, hit twice, use the bonus action for Flurry of Blows, and try to stun the enemy. That's a really good strategy, and these subclasses all ask you to use that bonus action and ki points to do something that is just *worse* than that combo. And unfortunately, even the best monks still face that same problem; casting Darkness or shoving your enemy is usually worse than that combo. The difference is, there are specific scenarios where those abilities are radically better, where the Elements, Sun Soul, and Dragon monks' abilities are basically useful as AoE damage and nothing else, and aren't even all that good at that. The more I think about it, the problem seems to be that monks are being looked at like the other martial classes, when they should be treated more like spellcasters. If you want to make the barbarian or fighter more interesting and powerful, you give it some kind of resource or flexibility that it can work with to augment its basic but solid game plan like the Ancestral Guardian or Battle Master. The monk on the other hand already has all those things, and its subclasses should be treated like an Evoker or Life Cleric; allowing you to do the things you already love just better.

@brunoluizferreira99

2 жыл бұрын

Great analysis

@TheEmperorGulcasa

2 жыл бұрын

The other thing is that all the class and subclass features tend to consume even more Ki, and monks don't get a lot of Ki if you're going to spend multiple points per turn. This means they always are competing for the same resource that bottoms out really quickly. If monks had a lot of Ki or if they didn't burn through it as fast, this would be less of an issue. But their baseline Ki growth and consumption rates are already a bit out of whack, so adding more burdens on that limited resource just doesn't help anything. Once Monks are out of Ki, they really have little going for them also and their baseline can't be improved with pretty much any optional options like feats. Attacking 4 times a turn and getting 4 tries at a save to stun is great. Smoking all your Ki for half the day in one turn and being potato until you can rest isn't. Compare this to the Battlemaster, who's individual uses of superiority die are a lot more impactful (and thus don't require them to be spent so fast). The baseline fighter features like action surge and second wind aren't eating them either. And the Battlemaster has the completely resource less fallback of just extra attacks, which can be boosted a lot by feats as well as magic items. So their resource is something you use at key moments for added effect instead of something they have to spend as their baseline turn over turn expenditure.

@malmasterson3890

2 жыл бұрын

No, the problem lies in the core design of the monk itself. By virtue of the monk requiring FoB to keep up,expending both actions to attack, you severely limit the class on its face. The best solution would be to change the Ki feature & FoB entirely.In my games I give the players an alternative option of making an Unarmed Strike alongside your attack action,as opposed to two as your bonus. This along with some changes to Ki resources & subclasses drastically increases the monk's effectiveness & enjoyment for the player.

@benhemsworth8555

2 жыл бұрын

100% agree.

@R.E.E.D.

2 жыл бұрын

Close. The problem is not that they're treated like other Martial Classes. It's that it's treated like a hybrid Martial/Caster class, when it's not. Monks are "Martial Casters" so they have Ki instead of Spell Slots and everything they do must draw from Ki. but at the same time Monks are a "Martial Class" so we can't have them having abilities that rival/surpass Casters and we can't give them Spell Slots or another resource to pull from that's not Ki. It's like they see it as both but refuse to treat it as either

It's interesting how all the most flashy Monk subclasses are the terrible ones. Four Elements, Sun Soul, Astral Self, now Ascendant Dragon. It's like having flashy effects costs extra.

@Apfeljunge666

2 жыл бұрын

Ascendant Dragon really is not a bad subclass. AoE Damage on a monk is always huge, but this subclass can do it for free some times per day, and do it as instead of an attack and not an action.

@Dickwraith101

2 жыл бұрын

Gotta disagree on astral, i think its the best option.

@timob1681

2 жыл бұрын

astral self and sun soul are some of the best monks, monk is just really bad lol

@isrlydonut8686

2 жыл бұрын

@@timob1681 I'd say that less than prestigious honor goes to Mercy, Shadow, and maaaybe Kensei.

@timob1681

2 жыл бұрын

@@isrlydonut8686 i guess so. really all the best monk subclasses are barely better than the others. mercy is probably the best, and four elements is the worst, but the other ones are all basically the same level of usefulness. that is to say, mediocre

20:20 Just to be clear, you choose the Drake's Breath independently of your Drake's Draconic Essence, which makes it a bit more versatile.

@Xadov

9 ай бұрын

I like this because if you’re going up against a dragon of one type, you can choose the type that will give you resistance to their breath attack while still being able to choose an element they’re not immune to as well

At first I wondered if the "problem" with making monks more powerful with spells or multiple abilities was the resource management and action economy. Now I'm pretty sure the developers just hate monks or don't actually play D&D. The UA made so many people (including myself) very excited to finally have a useable elemental monk and the delivered product fell so short.

@Walthanar

2 жыл бұрын

I believe the developers hate the monk AND don't really play their game. And they don't even read reddit posts of people who understand the game far better suggesting how to fix monks and other shitty subclasses

@Shalakor

2 жыл бұрын

I think the response was so excited that they just assumed it needed nerfed.

@LupineShadowOmega

2 жыл бұрын

@@Shalakor Agreed. People were so into it that they felt it had to be too powerful. Gotta be it.

@fatgumthegoat

2 жыл бұрын

@@LupineShadowOmega frrr, can't be that there was a decent elemental monk with a really cool theme. Had to be op

I want a video series where you dudes "fix" bad subclasses. Starting of course with monks

@DungeonDudes

2 жыл бұрын

We’ve started it! Expect a sequel soon kzread.info/dash/bejne/m3uBuI-dh63dmJc.html

@malmasterson3890

2 жыл бұрын

@@DungeonDudes You should just do an entire video on Monk at this point honestly.

@njames206

2 жыл бұрын

@@DungeonDudes I just fixed it for a player. Haven't played with it yet, but my changes... Added to Tongue of Dragons: You have advantage on Intelligence rolls to recall dragon lore (you'll see why this is a really good ribbon below). To Breath of Dragons and the Augmented L17, added "+ your WIS modifier + your proficiency bonus" to the Martial Arts Die damage, so it scales and gives the player a chance to augment the damage at ASI junctions. Changed 10 ft to 25 for Aspect of the Wyrm. Did all this inspired by your pan of the subclass. Also, we're going to do a Fizban's-based draconic road trip adventure, again inspired by your review of the book (so she gets to be the dragon whisperer of the party). If you're still reading, I'm doing something weird with our monk. Her core subclass is Shadow, but she (an elf) is the reincarnation of a Dragon monk, so she has the option to shift to Ascendant Dragon at any point and regains her max Ki. She has to wait for her trance/long rest to resume her core persona/subclass, so it's a once per adventuring day option. She hasn't flipped that switch yet, and I may regret it at higher levels (currently L4), but this buff was inspired by your take on how Monks are so weak in comparison to other classes. I just talked with the player about how she now has two very different tactical packages to consider for combat and other encounters. If you're curious, happy to report back after a few levels of play with this model. Most of the other players don't know about this feature, so it should be a fun surprise when she unveils it. The main thing I've asked is that she really role plays the alternative persona/subclass differently, and she has ideas that are meaningful to her about that.

That’s actually a really good idea for a video. The DnD Bucket List.

@accursedblackmage

2 жыл бұрын

1. Ride a dragon (normal) 2. Ride a dragon (sexy)

@jw__11

2 жыл бұрын

@@accursedblackmage Found the Bard!

@aftonstephens9710

2 жыл бұрын

@@jw__11 To be fair, isn't that on most peoples bucket list?

@jw__11

2 жыл бұрын

@@aftonstephens9710 I didn't say it wasn't ;)

It’s not that they won’t let the monk “off the chain”, they just can’t deal with the disaster of a ki system they made for themselves.

@tomdavis3878

2 жыл бұрын

This is 100% the problem, and I think is a function of WotC operating under the original assumptions 5e made about an adventuring day, which features 6-8 fights and 2-3 short rests (which is not the case in the vast majority of games). Ki functions basically the same as sorcery points, but 1) has far less versatility of use (and even in subclasses like Ascendant Dragon or Four Elements that get other uses, none of the alternate uses compare to the power of being able to make more attacks, stun enemies, and disengage or dodge when you find yourself in a bad spot), and 2) the only mechanic you have to recharge your ki is either taking a short rest, or being level 20 and having none at the start of combat. And frankly, it's going to be tough to create something that meaningfully competes with Stunning Strike; stunned is a debilitating condition, and getting three or four chances to inflict it per turn is really compelling. Basically, I see three ways to fix this: 1) give monks a way to regain ki that isn't taking a short rest: maybe they have a limited-use ability that allows them to use an action or bonus action in combat and use that time to recenter themselves, gaining 2 (or proficiency mod or whatever) ki back. This would allow you to use abilities that eat up more ki more often. Though even that would likely need to be combined with 2) make the other ki-based abilities more powerful and/or reduce their ki cost. Up the damage of the breath weapon, and don't require a ki cost for it to scale; do the same for the radiant sun bolt, up the range to at least 60 feet, and/or allow you to use it Flurry of Blows-style at a base level; give Four Elements monk Fireball at 6th instead of 11th, or make it 2 or 3 ki instead of 4 (honestly, making Four Elements essentially a 1/2- or 1/3- caster with the ability to cast all spells that deal elemental damage for a ki cost equivalent to their spell level would be a good framework for a solution, though it might need some tweaks). The final option is the one that I think I'd like to see most: 3) admit that you're not going to beat the power of Stunning Strike, and give subclasses a few nice combat tricks that have no or minimal ki cost while focusing most of the subclass on the other two pillars. Honestly, I think the rerolling a failed Intimidation or Persuasion check is one of my favorite things the Ascendant Dragon monk gets, because it's a ribbon that costs you nothing, is there until it's expended, and allows you to be stronger in the social phase of the game, where the monk can regularly be nonexistent due to being MAD and therefore having few resources to put towards non-essential stats like Charisma. More of that sort of stuff would be great, but some out-of-combat ki uses would be awesome as well. Let me spend ki to focus on the world around me and give myself advantage on a Perception, Investigation, or Insight check. Or let me call upon the wisdom of the multiverse to get advantage on a knowledge-based check or proficiency with a tool. Let me learn to be able to read the energy of those I'm interacting with and learn what buttons to press in social situations, allowing me to use Wisdom in lieu of Charisma for social checks (something that is technically already allowed, but very DM-dependent; codifying it in the subclass would mean you could do it without needing to plead your case to the DM every time). The Dudes are right; the base monk is great, particularly in the combat pillar of the game. So instead of giving me more combat abilities that compete for my limited ki resource, give me some weaker freebies (or honestly, given how underpowered a lot of these abilities are, leave them as is and remove or at least reduce the ki cost) and give me a monk that can stand at least somewhat on par with a rogue or ranger in exploration, or a wizard in knowledge, or a bard or paladin in social situations.

@PUNishment777

2 жыл бұрын

@@tomdavis3878 I think monk needs a complete mechanical rework

@LupineShadowOmega

2 жыл бұрын

I think they poisoned their own thinking around the class with Stunning Strike. When it hits its so impactful as to bring down a fight, but it hitting every turn or even often is sort of merry christmas land, but still they have to plan around it.

@obi-wan-jacobi840

7 ай бұрын

I’m starting to think the base Monk class needs a fix like Ranger got from Tasha’s, but I’m not sure how well that would help the weaker subclasses.

@user-mu8ok5xf8d

27 күн бұрын

@@obi-wan-jacobi840it would help depending on the changes. Like step of the wind doesn’t take a bonus action, start with some extra key points and being able to bonus action attack without needing to attack on their turn. That would help a lot of the subclasses so much

The difference between the Monk and the Ranger has been because the designers had ideas of what to do with the Ranger (as noted by the many redesigns and the way some of the subclasses really all work) and no idea what to do to make a Monk fantasy work.

@THEPELADOMASTER

2 жыл бұрын

And they're so afraid to make it op that they make it trash

@tomaslaman96

2 жыл бұрын

Also that stunning strike are so good that DMs hate monks.

Something ive been saying for a couple years: Stunning Strike holds the monk back. Stunning Strike is by far the best part of the monk kit, but because of how good it is, WOTC keeps giving us garbage subclasses. Without Stunning Strike, the class could be tuned far better and the subclasses published could be much stronger. The ki economy needs a complete overhaul, and the subclasses need to be tuned to either have a separate resource pool that can interact with ki or they need to feed ki better. Imagine a subclass that restores 2 ki points when you defeat a target for example, and the subclass capstone changes it to restore 5 ki points when an enemy dies or is knocked unconscious within 30 feet of you.

@ticozayas6430

2 жыл бұрын

entropy monk!

@alfredorivera5764

2 жыл бұрын

This idea is so crazy it could just work

@ru5h1n68

2 жыл бұрын

I 100% agree, stunning strike is such a fight warping ability that monks can't get anything else thats good. Also, this is just my opinion, but stunning strike is also just incredibly boring. You do the same thing every fight, which is try to stun the enemy, which makes it way less fun for the DM because they dont get to play their cool monster anymore. I haven't played with a monk in a party yet, but most people that I talk to say it gets pretty boring because you just do the exact same thing every fight, and its less fun when theres no danger involved because everything you fight is just stunned forever.

@erikwilliams1562

2 жыл бұрын

I gotta agree. The devs are so terrified of Stunning Strike that they think adding anything would make them OP. So all other monk options are inferior. So players use Stunning Strike because its all they got. So devs think its too powerful... rinse and repeat

@Kitusser

2 жыл бұрын

Stunning strike falls off super hard and is pretty bad vs multiple enemies. It targets the most common save aswell. Great vs one single enemy though

God damn, I have never seen Kelly lose his chill as much as "this is a pile of trash". I feel you, brother.

I think Way of Mercy got it right where you can heal someone during Flurry of Blows. Punching a baddie twice and then slapping some health into your teammate standing next to you is pretty awesome.

@SomeDigitalGhost

2 жыл бұрын

*Smacks teammate on the back of the head* Feel better, now.

@conorb.1901

2 жыл бұрын

I think Way of Mercy is the best monk subclass. It builds on what the monk can actually do. This singular subclass got me to actually play a monk.

@Durandurandal

2 жыл бұрын

@@SomeDigitalGhost I imagined them doing that "flipping a fist up and back into the face of someone behind you" move, only it's your wizard friend (who still drops to the ground of course)

@fatgumthegoat

Жыл бұрын

I think if ascendant dragon let you go into a draconic stance when you used flurry of blows then that stance let you do extra elemental damage when you hit that would be way better. Maybe you can only add 1 martial arts die per turn but you get an aura later that let's other people add it on their turn too. This subclass had such potential

I’ve been playing a Drakewarden for about 4 sessions now and I’m consistently outdoing both the other players in my party (Divine Sorcerer, Psionic Fighter) and I’m having a blast with the RP. Don’t forget the extra damage the drake does with the infused strike reaction!

@conductingchaos7710

2 жыл бұрын

That’s what I’m doing with my Ascendant Dragon monk tiefling. It’s awesome.

@GuyFawkes051

2 жыл бұрын

Not hard to outdo the psionic fighter, lol, but good to hear we finally have a decent pet class.

@brandoncurtis1636

2 жыл бұрын

@@GuyFawkes051 There was one before this in the form of the revised Beast Master from Tasha’s

I played an ascendant dragon monk, but me and my dm worked together to homebrew it to make it equal to other great classes like open palm monk and shadow monk. Things like the frightful presence actually works like a dragon, and the damage for the breath weapon is more. This class could easily have been better if these changes were added. The spectral jump thing is an awesome ability as a monk idk why they didn’t like it

@Hazel-xl8in

2 жыл бұрын

the spectral jump is cool, but other subclasses are gaining flight that lasts for 10 minutes at the same or similar level. individually, none of these abilities are specifically bad, i was just waiting for the really cool good one to show up and it never did. it’s like they’re all being toned down to make room for something, but that something never comes. by comparison, consider the hexblade warlock’s expanded spell list. it’s pretty lame, all things considered! most of the spells are just not useful, but it’s fine because Hex Warrior and Hexblade’s Curse make up for it by giving you two really strong and cool abilities that make you forget how dumb shield is on a warlock.

@olorin6494

2 жыл бұрын

Monks could already jump good; What they couldn’t do was fly and they still can’t which is very frustrating considering you are spending your ki to do it and they specifically advertised it in the subclass description. So ultimately the ability is like a 20% increase in effectiveness

@hieronymusnervig8712

2 жыл бұрын

A Wizard with the Jump spell and 10 STR can jump 30 feet long or almost 10 feet high. Using a 1st level spell. An uncommon magic item can give you HOURS of fly speed. The Fly spell gives you a 60 foot fly speed. You can tame a griffon and ride it for 80 foot fly speed. A Harengon can jump 15 feet in any direction without expending movement or Ki. Or make that 45 feet for the Wizard with jump. There's Spider Climb, Levitate, multiple subclasses with flying speeds, Misty Step, Dimension Door, multiple subclasses with teleportation and much more. And you get the ability to jump really far. Monk mobility is EXTREMELY overrated. Is it fun? Yes. Can half the other classes do the same thing? Double yes! Monks being almost exclusively short ranged means the mobility only serves to dash into combat, or to disengage. Which is utterly worthless when compared to what an archer or spellcaster can do with the default 30 ft move speed. Your mobility also doesn't prevent damage, it just shifts it to other party members. Would be nice if you were a Wizard and had to concentrate on a spell, not so good if YOU are the martial and it's suddenly the Wizard who's surrounded by enemies now. And out of combat... let's just say that investing into a climbing kit and athletics proficiency beats a full 9th level feature. (just for comparison: Wizards can learn Teleportation Circle, Arcane Gate, Far Step, and more. Meanwhile Clerics and Druids can cast Water Walk as a RITUAL on the ENTIRE PARTY. At least the wings come at level 6, when they're still something to boast about for a level or two. Or in other words: make it a permanent fly speed, and the subclass would still suck anyway.

@charliescheirmann2926

2 жыл бұрын

The jump is very lack luster compared to other subclasses which just get flight for several minutes without needing to activate a different ability to do so. Not to mention eventually monks can just run on vertical surfaces without using any resources making this ability pointless a good portion of the time.

@Chaosmancer7

2 жыл бұрын

I'd say the biggest hit against the flight is that by 9th level you can just run up walls. So, let's say that there is an 80 ft wall with a balcony on the top. By 9th level any monk can likely reach it. Same if it is across a lake. Even absolute worst case of a monk with an 8 strength who is using Step of the Wind anyways can, without a roll, leap a 15 ft gap which is rather large. 10 is 20 ft, 12 is 24. So, you likely get a few levels where this is relevant, but only for extreme chasms or other obstacles. And then it becomes even less relevant

Ascendant Dragon was overnerfed way too hard. Why is the flight so limited? Why is the aura 10 feet? Would legit just let someone play the UA version instead.

@PUNishment777

2 жыл бұрын

WOTC: StUNninG StRIkE Is gOOd

I give the drakewarden an S been playing level 5-9 now in a campaign. Especially playing a kobold drakewarden (basically always on advantage). More so as a battlefield control using the drake as a meat shield, grappling and pulling creatures to hold choke points or into the wizards wall of fire since it has immunity to elemental types has been super effective. Very cheap to re summon as well if it goes down 1st level slot is basically never used by me since I’m playing revised ranger. Also damage vs a gloomstalker we have one in our campaign and sure he has strong initial burst damage but as battle goes on I out pace in damage easily by round 2 and often crit nearly every fight because of pack tactics. Also infused strikes+favored foes is a free 2d6 that increases your average DPR consistently instead of bursty. One of my most potent uses on killing spell casters has been having the drake grapple and casting silence. I soloed one of our boss battles doing this as she couldn’t escape its grapple and when she killed it I just resummoned the drake.

@arklainquirk

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I agree with everything you said, at level 3 the Drake has 20 hp and can be resummoned 4 times which means it has 100 hp at level 3!

@USMCRonin

2 жыл бұрын

@@arklainquirk not to mention the AC gets really good 18 AC 50hp isn’t too bad at level 9 my drake has actually only died once and that was a boss fight.

@Captaincory1

2 жыл бұрын

One thing I just thought of is, you could use the feature to summon it to essentially teleport it somewhere else on the battlefield within 30ft of you, so if you had it with fire damage but your up against a few fire resistant monsters make it appear somewhere it can hit all enemies with its breath that now does lightning damage

@coldfusion230

2 жыл бұрын

How do you get the advantage? The drake moves after you.

@everlastingdragon4520

2 жыл бұрын

The drake breath = fireball + chromatic orb

Drake Warden is amazing, S tier. Most of the monk subclass problems could be fixed by "As part of your [Base Feature X], you may [Subclass ability Y]". The ki and action economy for the monk in general is brutal, the subclasses need to add efficiency. Sadly most of them take it away

@obsidian1612

2 жыл бұрын

I'm taking a screenshot of this and sending it to Wizards of the Coast just so that they can get it though their heads...

@DurandalsFate

2 жыл бұрын

Here's an example of how you can do that while keeping the monk as a shock attacker rather than turning it into a blaster. Say you want a Four Elements monk whose subclass abilities are integrated with the base monk features instead of competing with them. Start by giving them access to the cantrips _control flames, gust, mold earth,_ and _shape water_ (say, you can choose two of them at 3rd level, another at 6th level, and the last one at 11th level), and when they use Flurry of Blows, Step of the Wind, or Patient Defense, immediately before or after their bonus action or first jump, they can cast one of those cantrips as a free action. This isn't about adding raw damage or breaking encounters. It's about allowing a creative monk to be better at its role and to _constantly_ use elemental power to affect the battle. With those cantrips, you can reshape the battlefield: controlling light/vision, creating cover, pushing creatures and objects around, lighting stuff on fire. So you can get in, strike and disrupt enemy lines, give yourself and your allies all kinds of advantages, and have an easier time getting out again. I'd also add a bit of bonus damage when you Deflect Missiles and throw the missile back: you can choose fire damage if you know _control flames,_ cold if you know _shape water,_ and bludgeoning for the other two. Again, this is all about integrating your subclass abilities with your base features and making you better at what monks do. And all of these cantrips mix well with the Four Elements "elemental disciplines", though it's still way too hard to use those elemental disciplines; the monk should learn a lot more disciplines, and they should almost all be cheaper to use. But at least Tasha's took a great step in the right direction with the "Ki-Fueled Attack" optional feature for monks, so you can mix your more expensive abilities with martial arts on the same turn.

@tompadfoot3065

2 жыл бұрын

@@DurandalsFate while I'm not a huge fan of their host for reasons, DawnforgedCast released a really solid Way of the Five Elements monk that leaned hard into the elemental control while avoiding spell ganking as much as possible, and if I remember right they also included the 4 elemental cantrips into the build along with I think Guidance for Spirit (Force). The core mechanic of the subclass relied on building up a kind of combo ladder for each elemental type. So you do an Earth thing and it gives you 1 tier of Earth power. Do another one the next round and you go up a tier. Don't, and you drop down a tier. And eventually you could unlike hybrid tiers by adopting a second Elemental Path. It was really phenomenal, and I think it was only a dollar or two on DriveThru RPG

@icarusreaver3184

2 жыл бұрын

Drake warden seems more b tier and anti synergetic with ranger as a whole and it’s subclass, and I honestly don’t know what people are seeing. Could you maybe explain your thoughts?

I can't hear "baby dragon" without hearing it said in a bad Brooklyn accent. And now I want to make a drakewarden based off Joey Wheeler.

I’d love to see you two do a side by side comparison between Beast Master and Drakewarden

Drake warden has S+ flavor, and a solid A In mechanics that can live up to its flavor. It’s the most well made ranger subclass, game designers should use it as a golden standard.

I played a dragon born drake warden in a Xmas one shot. I never played a ranger before but I must say I was very happy with the character and the versatility it presented. Every action, bonus action and reaction was used every round! Next campaign (DiA) I will absolutely play this character long term!

One of my players is looking forward to playing a Drake Warden.

@arklainquirk

2 жыл бұрын

Just be ready for the drake to be an OP tank in battle, at level 3 the Drake has 20 hp and can be resummoned 4 times which means it has 100 hp at level 3!

When I first read this monk’s official subclass, I think this was the first time I actually got more and more mad the further I kept reading this subclass.

I wish a pact of the dragon warlock had been introduced, just for the roleplay of a bard or sorcerer or even paladin making a pact with a dragon on their journey and how that would play out. A draconic sorcerer/warlock would be so interesting.

I ran a game where one of the players was using the UA version of the dragon monk and it honestly felt like she was playing without a subclass most of the time. People who have played a lot more video games and less 5e will see that ability to use customized elemental damage and think it is the best thing ever - and it would be if you were playing Pokemon (or any other of a number of video games) but unfortunately there are just too few damage vulnerable monsters in 5e.

@lordsloth9337

Жыл бұрын

Here's the thing. Its not just about trying to take advantage of vulnerability, but also avoiding resistance and immunity. The ability to freely switch the type of damage of your breath means you aren't screwed the moment you come up against an enemy that's immune to fire, or lightning, or any of the other elements. Unless you face off against Tiamat? or some other insane monster with resistance or immunity to all five Dragon elements, then you're good.

I’ll be honest. I was surprised we didn’t get a Great Wyrm Patron Warlock. We got rules on dragon cults, dragon minions, dragon allies…. It SCREAMS Warlock patron. But we got another craptastic Monk subclass but we got a really good Ranger.

@Jin_1814

2 жыл бұрын

It would have been cool. But there was already a new Warlock in Van Richten’s guide.

"Wow, nice jump there monk..." - Genie Warlock, who's been hovering in the air for the last 9 minutes...

Hopefully in 5.5e they fix the Monk’s subclasses, they really needs some love 😭

@antongrigoryev6381

2 жыл бұрын

Doubt it. They either genuinely think monks are perfectly fine or are making them trash on purpose. I mean, how else can you explain this subclass if not them hitting the "Oh shit we've made monks half-decent" panic button after releasing Way of Mercy?

@nicolaezenoaga9756

2 жыл бұрын

Meh, most of them are either good or ok.

@ozbelceburn523

2 жыл бұрын

Well, by itself the Monk class does more than the other martial classes with a wide variety of abilities. The subclasses for the Monk more than determiners are in my perspective something complementary or an exploration of new roles for the class. The only subclasses of the monk that I see as failed really are four elements and sun soul. The others are fine considering what the monk can do for himself.

@antongrigoryev6381

2 жыл бұрын

@@ozbelceburn523 And what exactly can Monk do? Run around and Stunning Strike? For every time it works, there are four times it doesn't. I play with a monk in a party and his Stunning Strikes haven't worked even once. Baseline monk severely lacks in damage and durability, and without those factors, it can't really use its mobility effectively. Monk relies heavily on its subclass to be effective, and those subclasses have to be really good and not just "fine" to make up for that.

@ThatoneGuy-zd4rl

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah I agree Anton, the monk subclasses are literally the worst that exist and it’s not close. And no, monks don’t get anything more useful than a fighter with action surge lol

I feel like many of the issues folks had with the Ranger were remedied by the "optional features" in Tasha's. D&D/WOTC knows that people have big issues with the Monk, yet they haven't helped it like they did the Ranger. I agree, let the Monk off the chain!!! Give the Monk a d10 for HP. Give the Monk something to do outside of combat. Make the Monk a 1/3 caster like the Eldritch Knight (Cleric spells?). Give the Monk Ritual Casting. Make the Monk less Multiple Ability Score Dependent. Give the Monk a few choices of fighting styles. Give them an extra ASI at 10th level like the Rogue. Make their Martials Art die scale better. See, I just fixed the Monk, how hard was that?!

@goodgulfgas

2 жыл бұрын

...and a Monk shouldn't have to take the Mobile feat. How many Monks have we seen with the Mobile Feat? Just give it to them!

@Dramatic_Gaming

2 жыл бұрын

The classes are opposites of each other. The base Ranger features were straight-up bad, but they had solid subclasses. Now that they have all the optional features, the Ranger is in a really good place. The base Monk has abilities that are honestly busted for a martial class; Baked-in bonus action attacks, a way to hit four times in a turn, incredible movement speed & evasion, and a way to easily inflict one of the most powerful status conditions in the game. But because you have all these strong features that require all of your actions and resources, trying to do anything else guts your power. You can't have something that uses your action because your bonus action unarmed strikes and Flurry of Blows need you to use the attack action; you can't have a bonus action feature because that interrupts Flurry of Blows and Step of the Wind; Any super-expensive ki point feature has to be completely insane to justify spending on, while almost any one- or two-point is completely outclassed by just doing Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike again.

@mikebougiamas3418

2 жыл бұрын

I’d make an argument for a d12 hit dice instead of d10

I definitely agree with you guys on giving the Ascendant Dragon Monk a D. It is a trap to use the subclass abilities, when it should add upon the core abilities like the Way of Mercy Monk does.

This was an amazing series! Thanks for being so thorough and passionate with it!

The ranger looks great, I like that the dragon can fly earlier than in the UA it makes it feel more like a true dragon. The monk at first glance seems like its adding on to the areas that the base class lacks. With an AOE breath weapon flying and fear effect, but as Kelly and Monty have pointed out the numbers and mechanics of the features don't quite add up.

@torunsmok5890

2 жыл бұрын

The features of the monk are fundamentally great bc of the 'covering what the base class lacks' thing you mentioned, they just needed to be MORE and easier

@Hazel-xl8in

2 жыл бұрын

the only ability i actually think is *bad* is the fear bonus action. monks already have a way to stop individual targets at melee range from being effective, it’s stunning strike! the rest of the effects just feel like they were toned down in favor of making room for a big ability that was coming, it just never came. if you could just fly with the 7th level ability, it would be at least a B. ditto on if the breath attack was good, or if the fear ability was like a normal dragon’s frightful presence, or what have you. it’s a case of too many underwhelming features that don’t add up well.

@yesitsRookie

2 жыл бұрын

@@Hazel-xl8in well said

Personally speaking, I understand everyone’s likeness to the idea of that the dragon monk is aspiring to become physically more and more like a dragon. And that the text lightly refers to these monks aspiring to “become” the dragon. But I find it more compelling to see one of these monks as an individual who has successfully began harnessing the might of the dragons themselves, and channeling it through them, as if they’re simply a conduit

Damn Kelly, every once in a while you drop a bomb that makes me cackle. Your assessment of the monk is one of those.

As a new DM I love referring to you dudes to help me when im stuck creating something for my world or just something to bring into my game!!

As someone whom is currently playing a Way of the Ascendant Dragon Monk, I can say that it is kind of interesting and fun, but I can't say that it's great. Aside from the capstone ability, I wouldn't necessarily call it a trap despite it being incredibly nerfed from UA to official print. It's still not as bad as Way of the Four Elements. Still, it does feel that WOTC just wants to piss on the Monk class as a whole.

@hectoravila4682

2 жыл бұрын

4 element monk is better because stuff he can it way better effects than anything the ascendant dragon can do

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that the monk subclasses usually get sidegrades rather than upgrades. It feels like most monk sublcasses are designed around niche damage options that rarely exceed the base monk's damage level and sometimes even sacrifice some damage for the sake of novelty of utility. This is a problem because most other classes get straight upgrades, and often get them for free, aswell as the fact that the monk's damage output is not very impressive to begin with. I mean compare how much the echo knight, battle master, gloom stalker.. These are truly subclasses they give amazing upgrades to the baseclass, that is the sort of sublcass the monk needs. Instead monk gets subclasses like astral self, dragon and sun soul, which sound super cool, but barely do any more damage than the base options, often cost of ki, and in the sun soul's case, gives up damage for the sake of limited range... It's just not good enough. Honestly I feel like a lot subclasses spend all their features filling in their baseline flavor abilities and never get to the meat of the the theme, which is a true shame.

One thing not mentioned is the fact that the Drakewardern's drake actually speaks draconic, instead of just understanding the languages you speak. So you are able to send it out to scout once it is able to fly, and it can actually tell you what it sees. Having a companion that can easily speak to you is just a massive boon.

Eyyy was waiting for this one, love your work guys, keep the rankings coming!

Kelly: "If we strip subclasses away, the monk is actually a great class. Mid to high tier" *Treantmonk has entered the chat*

@salamaneinglorion5956

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, that’s kinda nonsensical. A subclass can’t literally make it worse. I think his frustration kinda got the better of him, there.

@DungeonDudes

2 жыл бұрын

I think you misunderstood. What I was saying is that the core features of the monk, without a subclass, when compared to other classes core abilities without their subclasses, the monk stands out as having some amazing abilities and options. But when a you add the subclasses in, many of the other classes gain their coolest abilities and features from their subclass choice, where the monks subclass choices do very little for them. I personally think that if we remove all subclasses from the game. The monks abilities like flurry of blows, stunning strike, the ability to run up walls or on water, catch projectiles and throw them back, and slow fall are some of the coolest features in the game. But where the subclasses make every other class better, the monks coolest features are still in its base class.

@eXyliad

2 жыл бұрын

@@DungeonDudes Oh dude, I totally agree that the base Monk has *super cool* abilities, I just personally think that it is also mechanically disappointing in combat and for all three pillars of gameplay compared to other classes, and definitely low tier if not the worst in general. I think *Treantmonk* argues the same about the Monk chasis, not only the subclasses, if I may invoke his optimization authority into this, which was my point with my comment. The Base Monk is the only class I can think of that is not in any top3 list of roles I can think of: damage dealer, controller, all-arounder, skill monkey, support, infiltrator, face, healer, tank, explorer, etc. Maybe only in the flavor/theme department, but you can always reskin other classes as monk-like. I mean the monk chasis I think is just like it's subclasses: super *flavorful* and the ideas around their themes are awesome and you feel super cool in your head when playing one, but mechanically underwhelming. 4 Elements Monk I think is one of the most, if not THE *most evocative* of all the subclasses period... but then you read the mechanics and it's just... ouch. You are better off taking the Fighter Rune Knight with Unarmed Fighting Style and reflavoring it as a 4 Elements "Monk". The second half of the level 3 Stone Rune ability is even a better "stunning strike"-like ability than the level 5 Monk's Stunning Strike, for crying out loud :'(

@MaMastoast

2 жыл бұрын

@@DungeonDudes They absoutely get a lot of cool stuff, but their base pillar in combat, damage, just can't keep up, which is a fundamental issue for monks.

@drewpydrewdrop3841

2 жыл бұрын

@@DungeonDudes I actually agree. And to go one step further, I'd say they are the best non paladin martial, if feats weren't allowed. Martial arts is extremely strong, before PAM and crossbow expert let other weapon types beat monks and two weapon fighters at their own game. Also tacking on SS and GWM, it gets really rough.

Just saying if we have crazy-good Martial subclasses such as the Echo Knight or the Oath of Conquest then the Monk deserves some love too.

You guys are so cool! :) being in and out of d&d in different seasons of my life, since I was 12 years back in 95. Back then it was 2nd edition. Played a bunch of 3,5 edition and now 5e is SO epic man! Love the mass of subclasses allowing for the specialized gameplay I always dreamt of back then. It’s epic that dnd makes imagination your graphic card :p it’s magical, truly, this game! :D thank you for the constant flow of epic content and deep dives! Keep it up my brothers in arms :)

Yay! Been waiting for this one. Thanks guys!

My guess for why the breath weapon is an action instead of a bonus action is so you are still able to give a command to your drake companion.

@PumaPants248

2 жыл бұрын

That and so you can’t get a fireball AND a shot with sharpshooter on the same turn

I think it’s very important to mention that open hand monk can 1-punch literally anything at level 17. That’s the bar, and I’ve yet to see other subclasses measure up.

@Hybriid22

2 жыл бұрын

Tulok gang where you at

@rukathekid7853

2 жыл бұрын

@@Hybriid22 Here. I think Monk is actually really good if played right and Tulok has shown that they can be extremely powerful

@malmasterson3890

2 жыл бұрын

The fact that you think that's the bar shows that even though people are finally starting to see how shit this class is, most of the community still doesn"t realize just how bad they have it.Monk is on another level of terrible,and Mercy is the only one that can reasonably keep up with the rest of the player options.

@antongrigoryev6381

2 жыл бұрын

It's not a "bar". It's a single feature that is OP by the standards of any class, but that you'll never see in play due to level requirement. No way it should be used as a baseline. The only good Monk subclass is Mercy and *maybe* Kensei and Shadow.

@Shalakor

2 жыл бұрын

@@antongrigoryev6381 It's not even just one feature, since the other features of the subclass feed into it, such as Sanctuary being good for potentially getting an enemy to waste Legendary Resistance uses if you just get up in its face and dare it to hit you while dodging, then Open Hand Technique to maybe waste more (and ignoring Magic resistance). Plus, that first feature, while not HUGE, is a great added utility to a base class feature that improves both damage potential and battlefield control, the real main thing Monk subclasses need to do more often. ...Also, Quivering Palm and Wholeness of Body a legacy features that used to be part of the base Monk in previous editions, so you can already see how the Monk was kind of torn apart by the 5E design choices. This leaves every other subclass having the unenviable task of essentially trying to replace standard features by default, and often does so with glorified ribbon abilities, like the developers forgot they removed those base features into another subclass (seriously, if you're not Open Hand, the Mobile feat is almost required tax to make use of the Monk movement). And, mostly, every class is wildly inconsistent in how powerful they're allowed to be in late levels, so it's hard to even call Quivering Palm OP. There's basically no balancing done at all for the last few levels to 20. (Seriously, though, level 18 Monk gets Empty Body, and 1 minute invisibility and omni resistance without concentration required is pretty fantastic, so the level 17 features is more of a footnote in most cases you'd ever be playing high level, no matter how good it is.)

Thanks for reviewing the new subclasses! I haven’t bought the book yet so this is really helpful.

The D&D 5E team has apparently not played a monk in a game where someone else was playing a martial character. The Armor Class is about as good as a Barbarian with no armor or shield, except the Monk doesn't get damage resistance like Barbarians do and a Barbarian could still use a shield and use their class abilities. The start out doing around the same damage as a Rogue during a round and have the same hit dice. However the Rogue quickly out paces the Monk in damage, and can Disengage as a Bonus Action every round if they want. A Monk has to use Ki for that bonus action Disengage, the same Resource that fuels most of their other abilities, including Flurry of Blows. It is like asking a Rogue to give up Sneak Attack Dice to be able to use the Cunning Action ability. The Monk core class needs a rework to bring it up to the level of the Rogue at least in Survivability and Damage from the core class alone. A good starting point would be the Martial Arts Die, d4 sucks, even as level one. Bruce Lee could already knock some random scrub out before he was taught formal martial arts. Bruce Lee in D&D would have started out a Fighter, not a Monk, thanks to the Unarmed Fighting Style.

@Shalakor

2 жыл бұрын

A homebrew I've been considering for literally just the last few days is Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind as 1 minute duration effects (still tied to granting bonus actions to use), tweaking subclass features to fit if need be. Think that better fits the fantasy of infusing ki into your relatively mundane abilities, and would make them more practical for non-combat encounters as well. ...Also, why is Slow Fall level 4? Could totally be level 1 without issue to give more up-front flavor and a few good stories of narrowly escaping death and other daring do early in a campaign.

Can’t wait to see the new monk get an D tier.

it's so funny watching you both get so rightfully frustrated with the Ascendant Dragon monk. it's like whoever gets asked to write a monk subclass at wotc get's told: "hey, please make sure that every cool concept for a monk subclass gets nerfed so hard that no one will want to play it. because monks can stun monsters, we don't want them to do anything else that's awesome, do we?" makes me want to poke my eyes out with my own fingers!

Your review is interesting, getting to know your intake on the subclasses from a book I have yet to acquire. But your discussion about how subclasses are currently created, the lack of interesting mechanics over the monk and especially how/why is really getting my attention. Continue your great job, your party of two is doing good

I mean you could always make us a homebrew monk subclass. To embody the perfect monk that you yearn for.

I feel like WotC is perfectly fine making Gish subclasses for Spellcasters, but the minute a martial class gets spell like abilities it gets nerfed

Another monk sub class, another dissapointment, at my funeral I am inviting all the monk subclasses so they can let me down 1 more time.

Awesome video! Slight little trivia note though, the Dragon Disciple in third edition is actually a spellcaster prestige. I think the class you were thinking of is Dragon Descendent, which this new subclass definitely seems to be referencing by name!

Drakewarden battle master has been my new favorite character to play

One thing they may have gotten wrong in the review of the Monk Subclass is that....all monk subclasses are crap so it could be higher since its compared to other crap.

For the monk: the three main subclasses I play are way of mercy, because I like the flavor and is actually pretty good, the shadow monk because he gets good synergy with some of his abilities, and astral self, it's not the greatest subclass but being the Jojo fan that I am, when it firstly came out basically gave me the chills and vibes that I could basically have a stand, and I still feel it kinda does, I just can't renounce to this feeling. But despite all of this monk is not even one of my favourite classes, my DM once even said "just play a fighter with unarmed fighting, and if you really manage to make it work I'll even give you the means to be even better" , with the monk I don't feel the same excitement that I have playing a fighter, nor the one I have with a rogue, ranger, or literally anything else.

I play a Astral Self monk at level 10 now. I agree that I seldom use the subclass features. Occasionally I summon the arms to extend my reach by 5 feet when I can't make it any farther. I've also summoned my Visage a few times, mostly to see in magical darkness but occasionally to speak directly to someone. Once I bellowed out to scare everyone around me. It's always a pretty narrow circumstance.

so glad to be here early! i’m playing a drakewarden right now and it’s far and away the best ranger i’ve played or even played with. i hope your rankings are the same!

Something fun to note: you can use wings unfurled to fly with a grappled creature. You take mobile and either multi class with a caster class for long strider and haste or have a party member do it for you. Now you’re dropping enemies for massive falling damage and you get to use slow fall and laugh as they splatter below you

@olorin6494

2 жыл бұрын

Monks really aren’t great grapplers unless you multiclass to get athletics expertise

@Trial88

2 жыл бұрын

@@olorin6494 unless the creature is stunned and they auto fail the check… interestingly that’s one of the few things monks can do

@Trial88

2 жыл бұрын

@@olorin6494 also if they’re stunned they don’t get a reaction as they fall.

@olorin6494

2 жыл бұрын

@@Trial88 That's helpful although using your action and bonus action as well as two ki points for 10d6 damage with the potential of you taking damage also (assuming 6 level as well as wood elf for extra movement you get 30 points fall reduction so about 9d6 damage equivalent on average) just in terms of reliability without expending extra ki a first level dip in rogue would give that expertise as well as thieves tools proficiency to act as the party rogue. Frankly the idea doesn't work with those movement boosters unless you take feather fall as well as slow fall just won't cut it past 100 ft. I think taking enlarge is also essential to be able to grapple larger creatures

@Trial88

2 жыл бұрын

@@olorin6494 oh for sure. You would easily be able to get it to max damage for the opponent at 20d6. And agreed about the dip into rogue. It helps quite a bit

We really need to sit down a designer in Wotc and just ask them "What the hell?" We're closing in on a decade after the games release and Monks *still* haven't gotten shit.

I just started my first campaign and I am SOO excited to see my character and dragon grow as the story goes along.

See, I have a Monk in the campaign I'm running who I showed the Ascendant Dragon subclass and he was immediately into it. We made a plot point where his character got his new Dragon powers and he's been having a blast with it ever since. He likes to cycle through the damage types on a hit and even asks the party which type to use next. I get what you're saying, but I'm just glad my friend is having fun.

The UA version of the monk was way stronger! Know idea why they were nerfed so bad

I felt like the Ascendant Monk could have had a lot more going for it. It was a shame to see some of the restrictions on it.

@ashleyhoughton8592

2 жыл бұрын

They just need to take what's there and dial almost all of it up to 11

@ashleyhoughton8592

2 жыл бұрын

Sucks how gated everything is that's presented.

@stuartdoig3418

2 жыл бұрын

@@ashleyhoughton8592 If they had properly playtested the subclass at the 8-10 and compared it to the drakewarden or any class/subclass they would realize it needed a fat buff

@stuartdoig3418

2 жыл бұрын

@@ashleyhoughton8592 It really is a shame

I love the drakewarden. The concept of raising your own dragon and eventually riding it into battle is just beautiful. What they need to do with the monk subclasses is to focus on improving on augmenting the stunning strike to something of an aoe with a sligjtly higher ki cost, heck maybe give monks a specific element subclass or maybe even giv them the ability to take on different powers based on marital art styles.

I’m DM’ing for my kids and nephews and one of the kids is playing a Drakewarden and I cannot believe how much or a pain in the ass they are. I didn’t look at their stat blocks, but I just assumed they wouldn’t be much more powerful then a warlocks pact of the chain familiar. I wasted a lot of attacks trying to kill the little dragon just to get it off the battlefield early. It outlasted my Drider some how. Awesome subclass.

I swear, it’s like they gave us these great subclasses, especially with the cleric, that they’re scared to death to unbalance the game by giving the monk ANYTHING at all. It’s insane

@Hatchmatter

2 жыл бұрын

Way of mercy is really awesome. I have one in one of the games I'm in and they're a menace for our dm to deal with.

@notsochosenone5669

2 жыл бұрын

Like a good villain, wotc gives monk players hope for the future with Mercy monk just to take any optimism away with this subclass. They probably gonna nerf monk in 2024, because been semi-playable is too much for monk.

@thetowndrunk988

2 жыл бұрын

@@notsochosenone5669 I mean they might as well. Virtually every edition of D&D the monk has been an afterthought.

Dragon Monk: When it's not just bad, but bad enough to make the Dungeon Dudes be upset, you better bet something is wrong with it.

Great vid as usual. I'd like to see what you guys would come up with for house rules/homebrew to bring some of the iffy subclasses up to par

Thanks for your thoughts. I am excited to see a drakewarden at my table. It sounds really fun for the player.

It's actually baffling to me how wizards of the coast seems to not care that monks are mostly useless. At this point I have to wonder if they genuinely believe monks are good the way they are, there is no other explanation.

On the flip side, this is a monk that can deal AoE damage-something that monks don't typically have access to. This is a monk that can fight swarms of small creatures instead of having to focus only on one enemy. Yeah, the AoE sucks against a single target because *it's not meant for single targets.*. You hit 2 or 3 enemies and it is suddenly way more efficient than just a single attack.

@PumaPants248

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah but you’re still better off punching, when you can get 4 attacks a turn you can one shot 4 small boys instead of “shit they passed the save so they take half and hang on with 1hp” it might take you an extra turn to clear out the swarm but depending on their saves and hp max it might be 2 turns regardless

@TheHaven923

2 жыл бұрын

@@PumaPants248 simple scenario: 6 kobolds in a room in two rough clusters (entered from two doors/tunnels or something). 1d8+5 x 4 with punches for a level 14 monk. That should get you ~3-4 kills if you don't roll low on your attacks or damage dice. Compare to the 3d8 x 2 you could release that would likely kill ~4-6 of them and still leave your bonus action open for something like a single punch or another feature. Against groups of tougher enemies it's going to be harder to finish them off, but if you can reliably hit 2-3+ enemies with the breath then it's going to do more. You could even open with it and then do a punch and a flurry to finish one or two off.

@TheWayOfTheWott

2 жыл бұрын

I think the argument against it is that for action economy purposes, it is much better to focus one target than to spread damage out in low-level AoE instances where the damage won't necessarily be enough to seriously harm any one creature. Not that I agree in all cases, that is just what I assume the problem with having a minor AoE niche to be. Also, on a meta sense, some DMs tend to not do too many mob encounters because it's a lot of work for them lmao

@PumaPants248

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheHaven923 Ok but the fact you have to hit lvl 14 to get 4-6 AoE kills on Kobolds is why the ability is bad

@TheHaven923

2 жыл бұрын

@@PumaPants248 I just picked a random level. Level 11 for the three dice, but you have two dice from level 3 which is enough to kill them with a single attack (for sure with 2 attacks), just not as reliably. Becomes a little more reliable at level 5 when the die becomes a d6. At level 11 the unarmed strike is still only a d6 so still having consistency troubles with unarmed strikes, too. The point is that it's a feature tailored toward a specific function (hitting multiple enemies) and the biggest complaints I see about this feature are when people math out it's use against single enemies.

Idea for the Dungeon Dudes: Start a new campaign from Lv1 but each player must play a class/subclass that got a C or D ranking in these videos. No homebrew, no alterations.

I would love to see a video on the rankings of the base classes as they mentioned with the monk base class.

So here is the thing, The monk is not actually a good class, there is nothing that it can do that another class cannot do just as reliably and usually without spending resources. The problem is compounded in the fact I think the developers have no idea what the monk's job is, it kinda has some random things thrown together and never had a real purpose. It just gets the scraps left over from all the others, and I am almost at the point of just dropping it, if it were not for some highly specialized builds that make it relevant, but I still feel that a good monk is about an average other class. Drakewarden and this is my bias showing I think, is possibly one of the best subclasses for ranger. One of because gloomstalker exists...

Just have the party wizard cast enlarge on your Drake when it's medium sized and you're riding it much sooner. Obviously not as easy and reliable as being able to do it without that but is possible for the clutch moment.

@Jin_1814

2 жыл бұрын

Unfortunately the drake can’t use its fly speed when you ride it. Even if it’s enlarged or you are small.

I would love to see what both of you could come up with to fix the Dragon Monk.

finally j can see your opinion on drakewarden ranger! i was really tempted to make a character based on that subclass but i wasn't sure

@arklainquirk

2 жыл бұрын

The job is actual op and you will give your DM a headache. At level 3 the Drake has 20 hp and can be resummoned 4 times which means it has 100 hp at level 3! Just send your drake to tank stuff as you just sit back and shoot things.

While I get that D&D is based on European notions of dragons and dragon lore, I think a dragon monk subclass would have been a good opportunity to introduce some of the aspects of dragons from Chinese lore. I'm no expert by any stretch, but even a quick Wikipedia glance shows that Chinese dragons don't breathe fire (or anything else that I can tell). They are symbols of power and strength and generally have control over water and rainstorms.

Guessing Ascendant Dragon at D tier.

As far as monk goes, I think the Cobalt Soul understood the gameplay loop of monks and further augmented that rather than forcing them to manage their dwindling resources.

"The short end of the quarterstaff" - iconic quote by Monty Martin

Why do I feel like Monks = Flavor, the class?

The Ranger really needed the drakewarden 😭

@romanwagner8709

2 жыл бұрын

Na, they needed Tasha’s. This was icing on the cake.

Accurate review. Thank you.

coincidentally, my friend played a way of the ascendant dragon monk and took the feat "Fighting Initiate" to take the unarmed fighting style, he became the strongest damage dealer in our party of 3 fighters, 1 monk, 1 bard-

The Drakewarden Is OP! The ability to resummon the drake over and over again after it dies is a huge hp sink!

@arklainquirk

2 жыл бұрын

At level 3 the Drake has 20 hp and can be resummoned 4 times which means it has 100 hp at level 3!

@seenyab4494

2 жыл бұрын

@@arklainquirk I mean that's not really taking into account that you might wanna use those spell slots for other things, you know, like spells. Also the fact that whatever you're fighting doesn't HAVE to attack the drake, and that it's damage output is typically going to be inferior to say the revised beast master, then it's not THAT op.

@arklainquirk

2 жыл бұрын

@@seenyab4494 True, the creature does not have to attack the drake. However, if the drake was in its face and the creature wanted to get past the drake, then the creature would suffer an attack of opportunity and flanking. Also, level 1 ranger spells are not that good, I would rather use them for an extra fighter on the field that has 20hp and 16AC at level 3. On top of that you would not likely ever need to resummon it that many times and you get one summon for free. At the minimum you would have a 40hp sponge at level 3 which is far more hp then any character is going to have. Just because the Drake Warden is not doing the big numbers in combat doesn't mean it's not OP.

@seenyab4494

2 жыл бұрын

@@arklainquirk Drake's, like most other creatures get only 1 reaction per turn. Which for most of the game is much better used on their "Infused Strikes" because it doesn't require any roll. So AOO are out of the question. As for flanking its an optional rule, but yes if it is allowed then it could be ok. Ranger's have an extremely underappreciated spell list especially with a few additions from recent supplement books. Absorb Elements, Ensnaring Strike, Entangle, Goodberry, Hail of Thorns, Hunter's Mark, Searing Smite, and Zephyr Strike. You also discount the fact that this subclass trades an expanded spell list FOR this companion. Doing big numbers in combat usually IS what makes something OP, because combat doesn't end until your party or the enemies youre fightings hp is zero. Damage is what ends combat, not tanking. Not to say that tanking isn't an important role, I just think that youre conflating this one great ability into the Drakewarden better than it actually is. The Drakewarden is great, it is mostly in line with all the other viable subclasses. No more, no less.

@arklainquirk

2 жыл бұрын

@@seenyab4494 I have two Drakewardens in one of my games right now and it is a giant pain in the @ss. Like you said combat ends when one sides HP reaches 0 and when you have 5 times the HP of a normal character you are OP!

I think they are excessively hard on the Ascendant Dragon, I understand the points, however the abilities although limited are overall decent and serve a good function, even if they feel little in the long run.

@antongrigoryev6381

2 жыл бұрын

Nah. They are really weak. Especially for a Monk. Something like that could get a pass on some strong base class like Paladin, but Monks as a baseline lack a lot of things and have to rely on subclasses to get them - and this subclass provides very little.

@jpjfrey5673

2 жыл бұрын

@@antongrigoryev6381 it provides synergy with Elemental Bane. It provides area of effect damage to a *martial class* - something martial classes suck at, and doesn't eat the full action either

@antongrigoryev6381

2 жыл бұрын

@@jpjfrey5673 Elemental Bane? Seriously? Who ever uses this spell? And AoE is something that casters are supposed to do, and they do it better. Single Burning Hands will deal more damage than two of these "Dragon Breath" attacks. Monks need to do at least some things well, not do more things badly.

@jpjfrey5673

2 жыл бұрын

@@antongrigoryev6381 people fighting *almost any extraplanar baddies* use it Pigeonholing spellcasters into the role of an AoE nuker, mmmmm Very fun to expect every caster to suddenly play the same

@antongrigoryev6381

2 жыл бұрын

@@jpjfrey5673 If you really consider Elemental Bane (4th lvl, Concentration, single target, on a Con save, does nothing on successful save, and doesn't do anything about immunities) a useful spell, we have nothing to talk about here. Oh, and did I get it right? Your argument why this AoE is good is the idea that *some* casters may not have *a single* AoE spell prepared? It's like saying that monk is a good frontliner if you have no other melee characters. Total bullshit.

I saw drake warden coming out and literally started a ranger that planned to use this subclass before it even came out! Finally level 3 and next session is going to be so much fun

Someone at WotC has PTSD from Stunning Strike, and as a result have a grudge against all monks and they are never... _NEVER_ going to let it go...

Hey guys, I have a request. I love your work but rarely have time to sit and watch a full vid because of how long they are. Have you considered putting the audio on Spotify in podcast form? I know I would love this and I’m sure others would too. Thanks guys! Keep up the good work

I’d be excited to see you guys do a video like this for non-wizards of the coast classes like MCDM‘s Illrigger and beast heart. Or even if just to provide some examples, do one on subclass options from 3rd party companies like FateForge, or Kobold press

Sometimes playing a monk feels like trying to feed a family of four with only two slices of pizza.

Just about to open the book to give it a look over.

I've been playing a drakewarden ranger since it was still UA, and since then, from a character standpoint, a utility standpoint, and a combat standpoint, it is such a fun subclass. It is a question of level progression, no doubt about that, but when you work together with your DM to figure out these things and pull the story into it, it really is a great and naturally built in character class. Highly recommend.