As always, this channel provides the definitive history of spaceflight events. This was a major test of both the hardware and the management of the flight. Well done LM5 !

@lunarmodule5

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you very much!

@InquisitorMatthewAshcraft

2 жыл бұрын

@@lunarmodule5 Fantastic work as always, Simon.

@dare-er7sw

2 жыл бұрын

What if all three engines failed?

@jgottula

Жыл бұрын

@joym6666 I’m 99% sure that 3/3 SSMEs down, no matter where the vehicle was in the ascent phase, would inevitably mean a “contingency abort”. And the term “contingency abort” is a nice way of saying “wait for SRB burnout (if that hasn’t occurred yet); and then literally bail out of the shuttle orbiter cabin through the escape hatch and hope you survive”. It’s kind of a half-step above “total loss of vehicle and crew”. Because some of the crew might potentially survive. Maybe.

@jgottula

Жыл бұрын

@joym6666 FYI, your username makes KZread delete any reply comments people make that are directed at you. (Because it thinks the reply comment contains an email address, and it likes to filter that kind of stuff out. And yes, it does know how to decode the spelled-out symbols; it still knows that it’s actually an email address.) So I’d recommend changing your KZread username to something else; otherwise, people will have a hard time replying to you!

That ATO call was almost immediate. The controllers saw the center engine shut down and it's almost like they didn't even need to think about their options. They just said ATO, and that was that. The whole sequence couldn't have taken more than three or five seconds.

@saladbreath607

11 ай бұрын

Yep, they were in a 45 second ATO window, so the call was hanging from the FD's lips.

@demzerocool7475

Ай бұрын

I bet the FDO instantly saw on his/her graph that they weren't going to make it to orbit right when BOOSTER announced the engine cutoff.

@canyonblue737-8

22 күн бұрын

@@demzerocool7475 each type of a abort has a period of time during the ascent, there is no decision making... if a particular failure occurs (single engine, vs. multiple for example) the decision is instant because it is preplanned based on where the failure occurred. in this case you hear the Press to ATO call about 10 seconds before the failure... that means they have entered the span where a single engine failure requires an abort to orbit, so of course when shortly after an engine actually failed there was no question about what to say or do.

You can see their faces change when they had meco and were safely in orbit! Thank you again and again LM5 for the magic you do for us.

@lunarmodule5

2 жыл бұрын

As always - u r more than welcome!

Finaly a worthy video to watch, my breakfast will be legendary

"Houston. Challenger, you are go for throttle up." Such ominous words.

@RideAcrossTheRiver

Жыл бұрын

Said on every mission.

@Deadbuck73

Жыл бұрын

Yeah… I’d just tell ‘em to punch it!

@StreamwoodExplorer

Жыл бұрын

@@RideAcrossTheRiver 👍🏾appreciate it captain obvious. Except the word "Challenger" hasn't been said on any missions since 1986 nor has a LOVC Event immediately followed those words since.

@RideAcrossTheRiver

Жыл бұрын

@@StreamwoodExplorer Yes, because _Challenger_ was lost to that accident. "Go for throttle up" was the standard call.

@philbaxter487

Жыл бұрын

@@RideAcrossTheRiver The call is actually "go AT throttle up" the throttle up has already occurred when this call is made. It means that everything is still go at the time of throttle up. It's a common misconception that its a command telling the crew to throttle up, when in fact, it has already occurred.

I was a flight test boom operator at Edwards and got a hang with Story Musgrave for an afternoon. Surreal, still.

I am always impressed by flight controllers to have manners. The OHM burn calculations were great. I was amazed by the grit of the pilots and to slow that bird down. I am also greatly honoronerd to be on the Black Rock desert basin several times to serve as an alternative STS landing site.

@sidv4615

2 жыл бұрын

C-130?

You got to give that Flight controller respect, she saved that mission. RESPECT

@hoghogwild

2 жыл бұрын

Jennifer Howard-Booster Systems Engineer

@hoghogwild

2 жыл бұрын

@@stargazer7644 Temps were approaching redline, if redline was exceeded a 2nd SSME would have shut down putting the flight on a dangerous single engine TAL abort case.

@hoghogwild

2 жыл бұрын

@@stargazer7644 The reported temps weren't true, but good question. It already occurred on Engine#1, she certainly reduced the potential for a LOC/V issue. She was owed drinks post flight that's for sure.

@thetommoody

2 жыл бұрын

@@stargazer7644 But as it turned out, these sensors were indeed faulty. The center engine never should have shut down and the "right" or number two engine never should have faced the issues it faced. Yes, characterizing Ms. Howard's actions as 'Mission Saving' is going way overboard...this was akin to a mild simulation that the flight team faced many times prior to the actual launch...one engine down and another with 'sensitivities' to use NASA jargon. The absolutely proper action was to order "Main Engines to Inhibit" for this condition (following an ATO) and monitor your troubled engine all the way to MECO, which she did. This wasn't heroic, it was purely following procedure and training.

@thetommoody

2 жыл бұрын

@@stargazer7644 Read my comment again...nowhere do I say that what Ms. Howard did wasn't correct, I was putting it into context. Get your facts straight before commenting...

Thank you so much for this. I've been waiting for a high-quality video of the STS-51F launch.

That was a rather nerve-racking launch experience back in 1985. Once again a great job. Thank you for the video.

@lunarmodule5

2 жыл бұрын

Very welcome!

I love how everyone's so calm, you can't even tell there's a potentially serious problem.

@RideAcrossTheRiver

Жыл бұрын

Except Jenny Howard in the BOOSTER seat at Houston.

@brch2

Жыл бұрын

@@RideAcrossTheRiver She was almost certainly the most stressed that day, as she had to directly monitor the engines and give the call to inhibit the sensors while hoping (though later learned to be correct) it was just bad sensor readings.

@canyonblue737-8

22 күн бұрын

@@RideAcrossTheRiver she was the most savvy of all, her decision to request limits to inhibit greatly reduced the risk of a dangerous TAL abort and made this failure an inconvenience rather than a potential disaster.

@RideAcrossTheRiver

21 күн бұрын

@@canyonblue737-8 Yes, I was just pointing out she was animated.

Its weird that both Challenger and Columbia had a near disastrous flight exactly 2 missions before they were actually lost Its like a prelude

@hawkdsl

2 жыл бұрын

I wouldn't call this a near disastrous flight on any level. Engine out is well prepared for, and has happened on Apollo 6 and 13. The uncrewed #6 lost two engines during flight. However, your comment is an interesting observation. Machines are a kind of living being in of themselves. They try to tell you something is wrong before it breaks nearly always.

@ChicagoMel23

Жыл бұрын

Atlantis had a near disaster with foam strike two missions after Challenger.

@RideAcrossTheRiver

Жыл бұрын

@@ChicagoMel23 Not foam. SRB frustum.

@chrisbullard5901

Жыл бұрын

It’s not weird at all. When you consider the slipshod engineering quality NASA has always had going back to the Mercury program, the politics behind pushing for a horrible compromise of the original Space Transport System, and the unwillingness of NASA to acknowledge problems in order to push an unrealistic number of launches per year, it’s rather impressive we didn’t have 3 losses of vehicle and crew during the Shuttle’s history.

@RideAcrossTheRiver

Жыл бұрын

@@chrisbullard5901 "slipshod engineering quality NASA has always had going back to the Mercury program" What? Mercury and Gemini never had problems. Apollo had trouble because of contractors cutting corners and political demands to rush the project to beat the Soviets to the Moon. "the unwillingness of NASA to acknowledge problems in order to push an unrealistic number of launches per year" You have it backwards. Corrected: _the push for an unrealistic number of launches per year on NASA along with the unwillingness of to acknowledge problems._ NASA does and did what it's told.

Thank you once again for all your time and effort you put into these videos! Awesome job!

@lunarmodule5

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the comment Spartan - appreciate those kind words

If anyone wondered what the #1 hit for this mission, it was "A View To A Kill" from Duran Duran.

Excellent comments and explanations. A pleasure to read. Very professional. Thank you all.

Again, an absolute pleasure to contribute too.

@lunarmodule5

2 жыл бұрын

This couldn't have been completed without your contribution Steve - as always, thanks

M. Kirkman is a great source of knowledge and experience!

@lunarmodule5

2 жыл бұрын

Totally agree

That was soooooo cool. Outstanding job LM5.

@lunarmodule5

2 жыл бұрын

welcome!

Thank you for another fantastic presentation 👍

what always stuns me is the fact that that both orbiters had a significant ascent anomaly (51F, 93), one final safe flight (61A, 109) and then were lost (51L, 107).

LM 5 is simply the best at these videos!! Thank You Again!

@lunarmodule5

2 жыл бұрын

You are more than welcome

I’ve been reading some great books on Shuttle. Into the black covers development and sts1, Bold They Rise which covers sts1 to challenger, it has some great stories from the astronauts. They also cover this mission. I’m currently on Truth Lies and O-rings. Next up is Wheels Stop, which covers the rest of the program.

What a nice surprise! That’s my lunchtime entertainment sorted. 👍🏼

@lunarmodule5

2 жыл бұрын

Hope you enjoyed it!

You have to love the KZread algorithm. I’ve watched shuttle videos before, so I guess thats how I was brought here. I had no idea that the abort had happened, but now I know what happened, and I’m glad everything went so well.

I wonder how Pete Conrad would have reacted if he were on this flight. Would he have thought it was one of the better sims? 😁

@funawesome2006

2 жыл бұрын

Yes

@gregbert1037

2 жыл бұрын

AL Bean: "we didn't have time for that (cardiac arrest) up here"

@slideryt

2 жыл бұрын

Ain't no astronaut got time for dat!

@hawkdsl

2 жыл бұрын

Conrad would have laughed all the way to orbit.

@RideAcrossTheRiver

Жыл бұрын

@@hawkdsl This scenario happened on Apollo 13.

Another beautiful video Awesome job as allways

@lunarmodule5

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much 😀

Love these videos!! LM5 is simply the best at these!! Thanks Again!

@lunarmodule5

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the kudos!

Cool and calm well rehearsed in the sim great job.

Great job, per usual!

@lunarmodule5

Жыл бұрын

Thanks 👍

Awesome job! The graphics totally enhanced it!

@lunarmodule5

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks as always James

@robadams5799

2 жыл бұрын

I appreciated the graphics too, being the visual guy that I am.

Nice job ! 👏

VERY nice video 😊 I liked the different angles to see all the action from different perspective

@lunarmodule5

Жыл бұрын

Glad you liked it!

Hello LM5 it's been a pleasure watching these videos of space flight exploration. I enjoyed watching the space shuttle lift off fly into space. 👍👏⭐🌟🌠💔💘❤️🤗😀😁

@lunarmodule5

2 жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it

And thankfully the only abort in the shuttle program wasn't an RTLS abort.

I was at the 51-F launch in the VIP bleachers that are shown in this video. We were 3 miles from the launch pad. I took some photos, but the sight and sound of the launch was so overwhelming that I stopped taking pictures shortly after lift-off. When the Abort To ATO call came we were rushed back to the buses to leave.

@chrisrasmussen3822

Жыл бұрын

Was AD MIL and home on leave in FL. Not this one, but we had VIP passes to the same bleachers. Didn't seem that far away if something horrible happened. When that one went, it shook us to the core. Never forget. Years later, right before I retired. I took my (new) wife. She had no idea. I have a pic of a huge smile on her face when that Shuttle went and shook her silly. I so want to see the SLS.

@sunitamosesesq

Жыл бұрын

​@@chrisrasmussen3822 I have an extra ticket. It's now going to be in November, but I'm still excited. I went up for the first scrub, but I waited on the second one. The size of SLS is totally indescribable. 39 stories. I will definitely go back up for the Nov. launch attempt.

@SilverbackGorilla69

Жыл бұрын

@@sunitamosesesq Got to stand right next to in the the VAB, on every platform level. It was incredible. Really hoping it launches in Nov.

@sunitamosesesq

Жыл бұрын

@@SilverbackGorilla69 wow...I can't even imagine. That must have been amazing.

I like your content.

love the KSP recreation!

"Looked like a good dump" How many times have I said that?

nice recreation in ksp!

This reminds me of a video I saw on KZread with a simulated catastrophe. One by one, all three main engines shut down. 😲

Such a loss later for Challenger. Respect for the crew and their families.

The greatest error learned from re-entering initiatives, was the need of a temporary or full surround HS coating, in the X-15a, there was the assumption of long term exposure in horizontal cruise, but it was an advantage for the unintentional surface of the Shuttle.

Story Musgrave did EVERYYYYYTHING, jeez!

I say this in spanish: De haber fallado otro motor habría aterrizado en Zaragoza y pasar la tarde/noche disfrutando de un tablao flamenco, tomando unas tapas y comiendo una deliciosa paella.

That intro looks like something out of Space 1999.

If anyone wants to know what the #1 film for this flight, "Great Scott!" it was "Back To The Future".

I’m pretty sure In the NASA weekly newsletter 3 days prior they practiced an abort

Huh. I never knew firing the OMS was part of ATO.

@nolancain8792

2 жыл бұрын

Lightens things up a bit. Funny how it later became normal to bypass OMS-1.

@Tim22222

2 жыл бұрын

@@nolancain8792 But there was never another engine failure, was there?

@nolancain8792

2 жыл бұрын

@@Tim22222 never. Just a few close calls and scares like STS-93.

@Tmccreight25Gaming

2 жыл бұрын

OMS firing during ascent was also a nominal procedure on missions with particularly heavy payload mass, almost like an afterburner

@bigdrew565

2 жыл бұрын

@@nolancain8792 "Yikes!"

Do you know how you put does graphics or good quality

Odd - The 3D rendering shows the OMS firing during ascent.. was that the case ? - There was no Single Engine OPS3 call (OPS3 being the name of the software module loaded into the GPCs for reentry) - then this might be procedure in the ATO case But there was an issue - what could they do after the single engine TAL end phase and the Single OPS3 entry phase ?

@lunarmodule5

2 жыл бұрын

The OMS was "dumped" after the ATO call, which was standard procedure. The dump meant the engines fired because of the hypergolic fuel and weight was lost, which helped in the burn to MECO. They burned the OMS for about 150 seconds. Fullerty calls the end of the burn and PAO indicates that the OMS were firing after the ATO call..as far as I know there was no single ops 103 option in the ascent of shuttle at this point in its history. That came later in the shuttle program

Did the oms engines really have to fire that long after the center engine cut down?

I thought after every mission there had to be a mission report going over everything that happened during the mission... I can find them for other STS missions, but not STS-51F for some reason.

It is interesting that if the pilots wouldn't disengage automatic engine shutdown, a second engine might have failed and they would be doomed. They couldn't even land the spacecraft. The shuttle was so fail unsafe

@Lord_Merterus

Жыл бұрын

The booster officer literally says that they have single engine capability

The crew was owed drinks at the Outpost Bar after this mission. Anyone going to see the launch of SpaceX Inspiration 4 mission which is scheduled for launch on September 14th at 8:00pm EDT?

@36:13 @39:14

@victorj9582

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks

Did Steven do the KSP footage?

@lunarmodule5

2 жыл бұрын

He did

The 3D rendering shows ET being jettisoned while Orbiter was inverted (tail pointing toward Earth) while ET cameras on flights before program ended shows Orbiter/ET rolling over so that the Orbiter is on top before ET is jettisoned. I'm curious did they use to do it this way then switch to rolling over before ET jettison?

@lunarmodule5

Жыл бұрын

They decided, late in the program, to roll the stack to a heads up position because it gave them better Comms through the TDRSS satellite network and also meant that the ET was in a better position in relation to orbiter at separation. When the stack was in the heads down configuration, as it was for this flight, the orbiter had to initiate an evasive maneuver which translated it above and beyond the ET to avoid collision. The heads up position meant that when the orbiter separated it was in a better attitude to allow photos/video of the ET to be taken sooner after separation, something that became very important after STS-107. There was also, because the OMS "uphill" burn was initiated during powered flight at about the same time as the heads up attitude was happening, no need for the orbiter to be in a specific attitude for the 1st or 2nd OMS burn, which on flights, before the heads up maneuver was brought in, meant the orbiter still afforded the crew a heads down horizon check as the orbiter was placed in the programme attitude for that burn. Hope that helps

@samwheat1302

Жыл бұрын

@@lunarmodule5 Thanks for the answer! I wrote an email to NASA couples of years ago asking about this after I first saw stack rolling over on ET camera because I remembered several illustrations while growing up showing separation like this video. (I watched STS-1 launch on tv) They did reply back, but didn't answer the question. Again thanks.

i recall watching a shuttle launch and the flamed out engine was visible. The commentary wasn't directly from NASA but it was a live broadcast and they were saying it will burn longer to make it to orbit..not sure if it was think one or not.

@brch2

Жыл бұрын

This is the only Shuttle mission that lost a main engine. If you saw it, it HAD to be this launch.

@crabbcake

Жыл бұрын

@@brch2 its interesting because there's wasn't much made of it during the broadcast.(of course not much time to really analyze as its happening) The flamed out engine was obvious with that ultrazoom/stabilization/was slightly better footage than here...

@brch2

Жыл бұрын

@@crabbcake There wasn't much to be made of it. The good thing is the engine sensors caused the shutdown after they reached an ATO abort altitude, at which point there was no major problems (just adjustments and annoyances). And, the worst fear was a second engine failing, which was dealt with by the command "main engines limit to inhibit", which prevented other bad sensors from potentially shutting down other engines prematurely. This was the best possible failure launch failure a shuttle could have.

ATO Callout 36:19

R I P Challenger 1983-1986

Only Time an abort mode other then RSLS on the shuttle program was used… Also, can someone tell me how shuttle temperature sensors work? Like the turbine one that was responsible for this

@AureliusR

2 жыл бұрын

They are almost certainly thermocouples. Two pieces of dissimilar metal are fused together. At that interface, a small potential is generated depending on temperature. Platinum based ones are extremely sensitive and accurate. How and why they failed, who knows. There are many different failure modes.

@thatoneskierdude4410

2 жыл бұрын

@@AureliusR who figured this stuff out lol

@noecarrier5035

2 жыл бұрын

Thomas Seebeck did, in 1821. Most discoveries are accidental, when someone was fiddling with stuff and found an unusual property, then set out to prove that some new thing was happening and did so. Other times, someone hypothesises that physics should mean that an X thing of Y type should do Z function, and they design an experiment to prove it or not, but this is rarer. We refer to the above process as science.

After this flight, Captain Robert Ballard (US Navy) while on a secret mission to check out the wrecks of the USS Thresher and USS Scorpion finds the RMS Titanic that sank on April 15th, 1912 killing 1,500 people in the disaster.

32:02 smoke is coming off the top of one of the white rocket

“Challenger - Houston - You are go at throttle-up.” *shudders*

Wow, I didn't realize that this happened in '85. I was a junior in high school. Probably wasn't paying attention to current events. Too busy chasing a hot gal that I was dating. Typical '80's.

@RideAcrossTheRiver

Жыл бұрын

This was the mission where they tested Pepsi vs. Coke

@jusnuts1443

Жыл бұрын

Well, gotta tell ya the truth. I've been married to that hot hunny for nearly 30 years now.

Why did both of the OMS engines start? Those are for slowing the Shuttle down when facing the other direction, right? Those 2 engines also have a very small limited fuel source.

@maxfan1591

Жыл бұрын

Fired to provide additional thrust to counteract the loss of thrust from the SSME shut down, and also to reduce weight. The OMS engines were also used to circularise the orbit as part of launch, not just for slowing down before re-entry.

@owenhorn7548

Жыл бұрын

@@maxfan1591Burning the fuel also lightened the shuttle significantly

Could u just explain me a little bit about what happened exactly? Abort to orbit, but they were in orbit. I think I didn't get exactly. Thanks!

@lunarmodule5

2 жыл бұрын

So...everything is ok until an errant sensor shuts the center engine down. At the time that happens the shuttle is in position to perform two possible abort scenarios. The first of these is called TAL and basically means that the shuttle would land across the Atlantic at an air base in Spain. The other abort mode they are in is called ATO or "abort to orbit". In this mode they keep firing the two main engines they still have... and the OMS engines on the side of the shuttle. This is preferred to TAL because the crew, once in orbit, would have more options than the TAL one chance only landing option. Once in orbit it could be decided to deorbit and land back at the Cape, Edwards AFB or White Sands in New Mexico. Or they could, as they did on 51f, raise the orbit slightly and try to carry out the mission. If another main engine had failed they would not have had sufficient energy to make it to orbit and a TAL abort would have been attempted. But, it they had not attained sufficient altitude and velocity to reach Spain, and they would have ditched in the ocean. Does that help?

@glideslope6845

2 жыл бұрын

@@lunarmodule5 first of all,many thanks for your attention and this awesome answer. Yeah, it did help a lot my understanding about the case. As always, an amazing video/content. Greetings from Brazil. The channel is amazing, and it does a really good job about space flight.. lunarmodule5 in a nutshell.

@jeffjeff4477

2 жыл бұрын

@@lunarmodule5 Yes it helped me. Thank You

@respectdawildo_danjones508

2 жыл бұрын

@@lunarmodule5 that greatly helps thanks. How do they dump liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen safety during 2 engine burn launch and the OHMS burn. The pods can burn on command?

@lunarmodule5

2 жыл бұрын

@@respectdawildo_danjones508 yes as shown, they turn the switch to ATO and then the OMS autoburn

If they had not had the engine failure, what would the power setting be on three engines? They ran the two remaining engines at 104% after the failure. Just curious about how much power was actually lost.

@nolancain8792

2 жыл бұрын

They typically go back to full throttle and throttle down slowly to avoid higher G acceleration, around three. Basically losing that engine made them lose their lifting capability (TWR less than 1.00) and had to dump fuel to reduce their weight.

@timsnyder2229

2 жыл бұрын

The engines were re-rated prior to the first flight. 104% was the typical rate at which they operated. They used the OMS engines to help compensate for the lack of one of the main engines.

@respectdawildo_danjones508

2 жыл бұрын

@@nolancain8792 how do they dump liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen safety during launch??

@hawkdsl

2 жыл бұрын

@@respectdawildo_danjones508 They burn it through the OMS engines (the two small ones over the main engines). This stabilizes the flight as well as makes up some of the lost power from the dead engine.

@SeligTiles

2 жыл бұрын

The engines go 104% at throttle up though. They are rated for 107%. I wonder why they didn’t go 107%?

Now the SpaceX Inspiration 4 is now scheduled for September 15th at 8pm EDT.

Man, those shuttles were death traps. Constantly on the edge of disaster. Impressive beasts, but in the same vein of riding Kodiak grizzly bears as a form of transportation.

@sidv4615

2 жыл бұрын

Recent studies have found that the chance of a mission failure during the first few missions were 1 in 9.

@RideAcrossTheRiver

2 жыл бұрын

The Shuttle Orbiter was a perfectly sound design. The booster system was a Nixon-era relic where President and Congress demanded a reuseable system then paid only for the Orbiter, telling NASA "make do."

@RideAcrossTheRiver

2 жыл бұрын

@@sidv4615 Apollo was less safe.

@sidv4615

2 жыл бұрын

@@RideAcrossTheRiver you’re correct, but only partially, the shuttle as an overall vehicle was safer than the Saturn V but the crew survivability was higher on the SV cause apollo had a launch escape system unlike the shuttle. Also the space shuttle was very unsafe, not just because of the solid rockets, Look at Columbia, the fact that an entire space shuttle was brought down by a piece of foam no larger than a briefcase just proves the razor thin margins the shuttle program was operating on.

@RideAcrossTheRiver

2 жыл бұрын

@@sidv4615 Again, the booster system was the culprit, and the blame and blood lie with Richard Nixon and his cronies in Congress. They directed NASA to design a reuseable booster and Orbiter; then funded only the Orbiter. The loss of _Columbia_ was the obverse of the loss of _Challenger._ In neither case was the Orbiter to blame. The foam that hit the Shuttle was travelling at 600 miles per hour. Why did you leave out that detail? What craft can withstand a strike like that? Perhaps you forget how the Apollo CSM had total and partial failures across MANY missions. The STS Orbiter never failed in any way because of any design flaw within it. The failure was the make-do booster system. STS was operated safely; especially after STS-51-L. Elon Musk's profit-based system is a deathtrap.

"This video is a reconstruction of the only Space Shuttle launch abort in it's [sic] 30 year history"... What, don't the aborted launches of STS-93 (Columbia) and STS-68 (Endeavor) count?? In one of those the sparklers or whatever they're called were already firing, so it was just 3 or 4 seconds before the main engines were going to start, and in the other one the main engines are up and running and the solid rocket boosters would have lit within another second or two, but the main engines shut down.

@lunarmodule5

Жыл бұрын

Yeah but this is the only in flight abort... they were on the pad aborts

Doing a check against the actual times, this video starts at 3:30 pm and ends at 4:27 pm

So, if an orbiter engine fails before 2:30, which is the minimum for RTLS, what would occur?

@lunarmodule5

Жыл бұрын

If that happened there was probably a high chance of catastrophic ending. NASA portrayed it as a possible abort continency but in reality, if a SSME failed before SRB burn out, the result would have been loss of vehicle and crew. They could not fly off the External Tank safely until after SRB separation.

@barkingmad7407

Жыл бұрын

Actually, if one or even all the engines quit before 2:30, they still would land in Spain, per TAL profile. They can't RTB because prior to 2:30, if one of the engines fail, they will be too under powered, too heavy (because of the weight of all the unburned fuel) and too low (with too little dump time), to turn around and still be able to get back to base. The chart is a bit misleading.

@brch2

Жыл бұрын

As lunarmodule5 points out, there was a high likelihood of the Shuttle breaking up if they lost an engine or more during SRB burn (because a LOT of stress would be put on the points the Shuttle was attached to the External Tank). But, assuming they lost an engine and survived intact until SRB separation, then they would just carry on to that point, and once the SRBs separated (and assuming the Shuttle pilot or commander triggered an abort scenario), the Shuttle would then switch its computers to the proper abort mode, and proceed to carry out the RTLS abort parameters.

@canyonblue737-8

Жыл бұрын

@@barkingmad7407 that’s not true at all. TAL to an overseas landing site only becomes possible much later in the ascent. If one or more engine fails very early in the launch before SRBs sep there would be no options other than an RTLS, buts it’s true that a very early failure also makes RTLS impossible also… so the plan would be to begin the RTLS (knowing you won’t make the runway) and then once in a glide ditching the shuttle and bailing out the hatch with parachutes and letting the shuttle crash into the ocean. That’s the theory but many astronauts in the program were not confident the maneuver was survivable structurally before they would have a chance to get our.

@barkingmad7407

Жыл бұрын

@@canyonblue737-8 As you point out, an early failure makes RTB impossible, that is what I was referring to as the misleading part of the chart. The very notion that "returning to Base" was ever a viable option was never accepted by the Shuttle Flight Commanders - as you alluded to - who considered RTB a creation of NASA upper management, purely for public relations. I learned of this charade from a former Shuttle Commander whom I had the fortune of working with during the flight test and certification program on the Gulfstream G650. The Commander said that RTB was put forward to assuage public fears over the near certainty that an early engine failure would be fatal for all aboard, and the constant Congressional financial concerns incumbent with the loss of an entire shuttle due to "simple" technical failure.

ATO 36:13 ->

Challenger seems to have a rough life, first it have to perform this abort to orbit, then it tragically exploded.

@minicitekedioh6132

2 жыл бұрын

The name CHALLENGER did its job of challenging every mission, shuttle and NASA. But each challenge came with new innovation to the shuttle program. The rendez-vous pitch maneuver or backflip prior to docking was a new innovation to expose the heat shield to crew on ISS for photograph to inspect them for damage

So, they aborted... but they didnt scrub the mission?

@lunarmodule5

2 жыл бұрын

No, they were in an orbit that meant they could accomplish most of the planned mission

@kevinwise1997

2 жыл бұрын

@@lunarmodule5 so the difference here is that they have flexibility with choices... interesting, I didn't know that was a thing

@jgottula

2 жыл бұрын

@@kevinwise1997 Yep. In pretty much every case, they have a particular orbit they specifically want to reach for the mission (especially in the case of launches to e.g. Mir or ISS or Hubble, where they need to very precisely match up their orbit to the orbit of the destination object). ATO is sort of a compromise where the loss of an engine (or whatever) does mean that the vehicle is operating at reduced efficiency and therefore isn’t going to be able to make it to the exact orbit they initially set out for; but they do still have enough delta-V to make it into some kind of stable low earth orbit. For planned rendezvous type missions (Mir/ISS/HST/etc), ATO would tend to mean that meeting up as intended wouldn’t be possible, and so the main mission objective would be thrown out the window. For non-rendezvous missions, the impact it’d have depends on if they just had a bunch of experiments they needed to do “in space” (basically the case here), or if they were going to release a satellite or other payload that was intended to end up in some target orbit, or whatever else they may have been intending to do that might be orbit-dependent. In any case, reaching *a* stable orbit of some sort-even if it’s not *the* orbit they wanted-is still good: both in terms of potentially being able to still get some subset of the mission objectives done (this is more applicable to non-rendezvous missions like STS-51-F) and also in terms of giving mission control more time and options for where and when to land the orbiter. If they do a TAL, they’re stuck with whichever trans-Atlantic landing site(s) are on alert for the mission; and they have to land NOW; and that’s the only chance they get. With ATO, they have somewhere in the neighborhood of days to maybe-a-week-or-two-ish to evaluate what the problem was, and then decide very carefully and deliberately about which landing site they want to use, when to come down for the best weather, and determine other factors like that at (relative) leisure.

Imagine if someone says "Guys, we cant do proper deorbit burn without center engine.."

@lunarmodule5

Жыл бұрын

...they didn't use the main engines for deorbit

Could someone explain to me like I'm a 3rd grader what exactly happened? All this SSME, OLE, and ESPN jargon is hurting my brain.

@lunarmodule5

2 жыл бұрын

From a post on this page I gave this explanation...So...everything is ok until an errant sensor shuts the center engine down. At the time that happens the shuttle is in position to perform two possible abort scenarios. The first of these is called TAL and basically means that the shuttle would land across the Atlantic at an air base in Spain. The other abort mode they are in is called ATO or "abort to orbit". In this mode they keep firing the two main engines they still have... and the OMS engines on the side of the shuttle. This is preferred to TAL because the crew, once in orbit, would have more options than the TAL one chance only landing option. Once in orbit it could be decided to deorbit and land back at the Cape, Edwards AFB or White Sands in New Mexico. Or they could, as they did on 51f, raise the orbit slightly and try to carry out the mission. If another main engine had failed they would not have had sufficient energy to make it to orbit and a TAL abort would have been attempted. But, it they had not attained sufficient altitude and velocity to reach Spain, and they would have ditched in the ocean. Does that help?

@pat_welsh

2 жыл бұрын

@@lunarmodule5 thank you that was a perfectly clear explanation.

Amazing how NASA keeps this so quiet. It was an incredibly dangerous close call yet nobody remembers it at all. I'm a space geek and I only first heard about it years later in an episode of Nova aired after Challenger blew up..

@glenkeating7333

Жыл бұрын

I don't remember this launch as well. Any idea as to how many orbits before it came back and landed?

@brch2

Жыл бұрын

It wasn't kept quiet (I mean, there is plenty of documented footage of it, including this vid), it's just that when looking at the history of the program, the same Shuttle being lost just 6ish months later kinda overrides what was basically a non-event in comparison.

@HailAnts

Жыл бұрын

@@brch2 - But that's the thing, the NASA engineers knew it was _not_ a non-event at all. It was an incredibly close call that very nearly resulted in the loss of the orbiter and crew. And they basically did absolutely nothing about it except hope it didn't happen again. Which was why they downplayed its seriousness..

@brch2

Жыл бұрын

@@HailAnts I didn't say it WAS a non-event. I said NASA didn't hide anything about this mission (and there's very little they hide about most missions if people care enough to pay attention). I said in comparison to the soon after loss of Challenger this became a non-event (in the eyes of the public). NASA tells the public quite a lot. The public in general just really doesn't care. And I'm quite sure NASA did something about the issue that caused the engine to go out. They found out the sensors were bad, and replaced them. And the fact there was never another abort due to engine outage is a good indication there was no "hidden" problems they covered up.

Abort ATO = Abort Abort To Orbit

good, but the animation have some errors, the external fuel tank its jetisoned shuttle upward towards space. Tank droped dow to earth. The OMS engines only works after MECO its done.

@lunarmodule5

2 жыл бұрын

Nope, wrong on both points. On this flight, because of the Abort to Orbit the OMS engines were fired/dumped to provide a weight loss and a boost uphill. It was the only time it happened until OMS were used to direct orbit a shuttle negating the need for the normal OMS1 burn, but that didn't happen till late in the program. On this mission and all flights until the late 90s the shuttle did not perform the heads up roll profile, hence the tank was in the configuration seen in the animation. without that roll the shuttle ended up under the tank with the shuttle earthside and the tank spaceside. Lastly, I know I got it right as I consulted with NASA mission controllers who helped launch shuttle and who know their stuff. Hope that helps

@johngaskey8240

5 ай бұрын

I remember narration some nominal flights that the OMS engines fire upon SRB separation. The narrator stating "...Orbital Maneuvering System engines now firing, giving the orbiter a 'kick in the pants' ..."

Ohh, is this the one that went kaput?

@mickfunny4185

Жыл бұрын

@sam linton nein

@darbyodum5648

Жыл бұрын

No

Buahahaha 😅😂

windows crashed they had to reboot !